[arg_discuss] ARGs/Interactive Fiction

[Michael Monello]

I agree wholeheartedly.

I think it's much more interesting to have players make moral  
decisions or to guide characters through moral/ethical/narrative  
problems than to put up some kind of puzzle or code, and I think it  
makes for a much more interesting narrative.

Best,

Mike

On Jan 8, 2008, at 11:47 PM, Jason Chrest wrote:


> One of the arguments I have heard throughout is where is the game  

> without puzzles?  To me a puzzle doesn't have to be something quite  

> as obvious as a cipher of some sort or some hex coding we see all  

> the time from smaller games.  Successfull games should have some  

> sort of puzzle in the story, something that naturally fits into the  

> story and evolves with it.

>

> I agree that they should not hinder from the process of the game,  

> but for players there is a rewarding feeling when solving a puzzle.   

> Video games are successful because they let the players have the  

> individual sense of being the hero or heroine of the story being  

> told.  ARGs present a unique challenge because the typically have a  

> community built to partake in the game.  MMORPGs have similar  

> communities in them and are quite successful, but you still get the  

> feeling that you are a hero or can become one.  With ARGs it is  

> difficult to allow the plauers to have that personal experiance  

> since the MMORPGs have various personal quests and those same quests  

> would be compared to a live event in an ARG.  We can't possibly have  

> live events for everyone (guys like me in the middle of no where  

> will often get left out).  I don't know if this is a solveable  

> problem for developers, but it's something we can definately try to  

> work around.

>

>

> Jason Chrest

> Aporia Cross-Media Entertainment

> www.aporiacme.com

> jason at aporiacme.com

>

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: Jay Bushman <jaybushman at gmail.com>

> Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 20:22:46

> To:Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG <arg_discuss at igda.org>

> Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] ARGs/Interactive Fiction

>

> I've always thought of the puzzles as analogous to TV commercials -

> albeit really neat, intriguing commercials.  At the end of the day,

> they're impediments to the story progression, and the crucial bit is

> to make sure the audience/players care enough about the story to plow

> through/solve/wait for someone else to figure out the solution so they

> can get to that next little chewy bit of story goodness.

>

> ---------------------------------------------------------

> The Loose-Fish Project:	<http:www.loose-fish.com>

> The Good Captain:		<http://twitter.com/goodcaptain>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> On Jan 8, 2008, at 8:11 PM, Michael Monello wrote:

>

>> Well, the puzzles have always been the least interesting aspect of

>> ARGs for me, since so few of them are truly integrated within the

>> narrative. I think it's much more interesting to have the audience

>> guide characters down different paths rather than solve puzzles to

>> unlock another piece of story, so I do think the kinds of challenges

>> we put into our narratives needs to be rethought -- regardless of

>> everything else we are discussing here.

>>

>> But given that the tiniest sliver of the audience actually solves

>> ARG puzzles and the vast majority of people get the answers from

>> that group, if your ARG is boring because the audience is getting

>> those answers then you have problems that go way deeper than how the

>> audience is organized!

>>

>> Best,

>>

>> Mike

>>

>> On Jan 8, 2008, at 10:03 PM, Ian Millington wrote:

>>

>>> ARG-puzzle solutions tend to be liberally shared. Because once a

>>> puzzle falls the whole world (clan in your case) rushes through to

>>> the

>>> next state, what would stop the first team communicating the  

>>> solution

>>> to someone in the next team, and that second team then finding the

>>> game boring? Most of team two wouldn't want to cheat - but the

>>> communal nature of ARGs means that only one would have to.

>>>

>>> Having individual play trajectories seems to imply having individual

>>> challenges. Which in turn suggests that the knowledge-based puzzles

>>> that are the staple of ARGs would have to be minimized in favour of

>>> skill-based challenges.

>>>

>>> Using TV metaphors another option would be the soap-opera - designed

>>> to be very easy to drop into at any stage, with the corresponding

>>> inability to build coherent dramatic story arcs.

>>>

>>> I dunno... even the clan idea feels a little too conservative to

>>> me...

>>>

>>> Ian.

>>>

>>>

>>> On 08/01/2008, Michael Monello <mmonello at campfirenyc.com> wrote:

>>>> I haven't thought this all the way through, I'm just spitballing

>>>> with

>>>> the group here, but I don't think it has to add that much staff if

>>>> the

>>>> game is structured from the ground up with this in mind. Everyone

>>>> would be playing the game in real time, it's just that the  

>>>> community

>>>> would be split into smaller groups, or clans, to allow for a wider

>>>> variety of community cultures. Think of it in terms of Everquest --

>>>> it's a big world and you can see what other clans are doing, but  

>>>> you

>>>> are playing in your own group or clan with your own clan culture.

>>>>

>>>> You are aware of the other groups, especially when it comes to

>>>> character interaction and live events, but you are really working

>>>> closely in smaller clans which are not in competition with each

>>>> other.

>>>>

>>>> Best,

>>>>

>>>> Michael Monello

>>>> Partner, Campfire

>>>> 62 White Street, 3W

>>>> New York, NY 10013

>>>> 212-612-9600

>>>> http://www.campfirenyc.com

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> On Jan 7, 2008, at 5:52 PM, libfli at aol.com wrote:

>>>>

>>>>> i really like this idea.  my only concern would be dealing with

>>>>> having enough manpower needed to run the game.  if it's staggered

>>>>> like this and the ARG has an interactive storyline, depending on

>>>>> how

>>>>> many "groups" you have involved, you would have to staff each

>>>>> group's game.  and, depending on the choices of each group, i'm  

>>>>> not

>>>>> certain each group would end up in the same place.  (but that  

>>>>> might

>>>>> make it even more interesting) :)

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> happy happy new year!

>>>>>

>>>>> Jan Libby

>>>>>

>>>>> (labfly)

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> -----Original Message-----

>>>>> From: Michael Monello <mmonello at campfirenyc.com>

>>>>> To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG <arg_discuss at igda.org>

>>>>> Sent: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 2:13 pm

>>>>> Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] ARGs/Interactive Fiction

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> Perhaps there is a more organic way to do this. I'm thinking about

>>>>> how time zones naturally divide up the television audience, yet by

>>>>> the end of the day all the zones are caught up and everyone can

>>>>> chat

>>>>> about the most recent episode.

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> In other words, you launch an ARG and the audience is divided up  

>>>>> by

>>>>> when they join in, yet you don't have to necessarily start at

>>>>> episode 1.

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> A simple example: the first week, everyone who joins becomes  

>>>>> "Group

>>>>> A."

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> Week 2 starts a new episode, and Group A plays through it, but

>>>>> everyone who joins in on it in week 2 becomes Group B. Group B has

>>>>> all the community tools of group A, but they are not mixed in with

>>>>> Group A in the game forums or the collaborative puzzles, which

>>>>> forces that group to organically form it's own culture for the

>>>>> game,

>>>>> independent of the culture developed by the more established

>>>>> Group A.

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> Each week, a new group. At the end of an episode, all the groups

>>>>> can

>>>>> discuss, because they are all at the same place in the story, but

>>>>> those in the newest groups don't have to contend with the experts

>>>>> who have been playing for a month when it comes to the actual  

>>>>> game.

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> The groupings have to be completely organic and mostly behind the

>>>>> scenes, as ultimately everyone is essentially playing "live",  

>>>>> which

>>>>> also allows you to have the events and non-repeatable elements  

>>>>> that

>>>>> are so important to these games.

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> Allowing new groups of players to form their own cultures would

>>>>> eliminate many of the issues that ARG's face after launch, in my

>>>>> opinion. It's not joining a narrative in progress that is  

>>>>> difficult

>>>>> -- TV viewers do that all the time and bringing people up to speed

>>>>> on a narrative is easy -- it's trying to join a well-established

>>>>> and

>>>>> dense community that is steeped in historical experience that

>>>>> overwhelms and intimidates new people.

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> Best,

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> Michael Monello

>>>>>

>>>>> Partner, Campfire

>>>>>

>>>>> 62 White Street, 3W

>>>>>

>>>>> New York, NY 10013

>>>>>

>>>>> 212-612-9600

>>>>>

>>>>> http://www.campfirenyc.com

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> On Jan 2, 2008, at 4:31 PM, John Evans wrote:

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>> Nice analogy, Ian. And another pillar to support my argument that

>>>>>

>>>>>> finite automata should be taught in high school. ;)

>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>> [snip]

>>>>>

>>>>>>> IMHO any solution would have to put people in their own rooms,

>>>>>>> with

>>>>>

>>>>>>> their own challenges and individual agency, while keeping the

>>>>>>> overall

>>>>>

>>>>>>> collaborative feeling of the ARG. As Michael wrote, that is a

>>>>>>> radical

>>>>>

>>>>>>> restructure of the mechanism of the ARG.

>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>> So you'd need some "rooms" that everyone had to go through on

>>>>>> their

>>>>>

>>>>>> own. However, one of the great strengths of ARGs is the

>>>>>> multiplayer/

>>>>>

>>>>>> collaboration aspect, so you'd also need "rooms" within which

>>>>>> everyone

>>>>>

>>>>>> could congregate. Except that they're not really rooms, they're

>>>>>

>>>>>> "events" or "states".

>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>>> Maybe it isn't a coincidence that interactive fiction is also a

>>>>>>> genre

>>>>>

>>>>>>> that has almost no direct monetization. But then again, that

>>>>>>> probably

>>>>>

>>>>>>> pushes the analogy too far.

>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>> Well, IF used to be monetized. I remember owning Wishbringer for

>>>>>> the

>>>>>

>>>>>> C128. Eventually it became "adventure games"...The point seems

>>>>>> to be

>>>>>

>>>>>> that you can sell interactive fiction as long as it has game- 

>>>>>> style

>>>>>

>>>>>> graphics. I guess?

>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>> http://www.steampowered.com/v/index.php?area=package&SubId=539&cc=US

>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>> There's an interesting idea. What if an ARG had graphics the

>>>>>> equal of

>>>>>

>>>>>> a "standard" computer game, but was organized like an ARG?...I

>>>>>> guess

>>>>>

>>>>>> it would be Uru Live, I answered my own question.

>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>> --John

>>>>>

>>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>> _______________________________________________

>>>>>

>>>>>> ARG_Discuss mailing list

>>>>>

>>>>>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org

>>>>>

>>>>>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> _______________________________________________

>>>>>

>>>>> ARG_Discuss mailing list

>>>>>

>>>>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org

>>>>>

>>>>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> ________________________________________________________________________

>>>>> More new features than ever.  Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com

>>>>> _______________________________________________

>>>>> ARG_Discuss mailing list

>>>>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org

>>>>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss

>>>>

>>>> _______________________________________________

>>>> ARG_Discuss mailing list

>>>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org

>>>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss

>>>>

>>> _______________________________________________

>>> ARG_Discuss mailing list

>>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org

>>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss

>>

>> _______________________________________________

>> ARG_Discuss mailing list

>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org

>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss

>

> _______________________________________________

> ARG_Discuss mailing list

> ARG_Discuss at igda.org

> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss

> _______________________________________________

> ARG_Discuss mailing list

> ARG_Discuss at igda.org

> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss