[Coco] NitrOS-9 newbie needs some help

[Boisy G. Pitre]

Hello Nick,

I'm glad to see you're venturing back in the OS-9 waters.  Things have 
changed quite a bit from Tandy's OS- 9 release, and I consider NitrOS-9 
to be a whole new ball game in some ways.  I read your post and saw the 
problems you were having.

On Aug 8, 2004, at 10:07 PM, Nickolas Marentes wrote:
> This leads me to the present. My next idea is to try and replace the 
> RAMS in
> my 512K upgrade (I have a 2 x 256Mb SIMM type upgrade) with another
> brand...if I can find some.
>
> Here are a few questions....
>
> 1) Why should NitrOS-9 be so fussy? I have NEVER had a problem with my 
> CoCo3
> (A PAL unit mind you, could this be the problem?).

NitrOS-9 definitely pushes the CoCo harder than RS-DOS, there is no 
question about it.  While all of the CoCo 3s I have here will boot 
NitrOS-9, I've heard reports that some CoCo 3s will just flat out not 
boot at all.  The reasons are probably numerous, but I think it all 
boils down to timing and stability of hardware.  Some CoCo 3s, disk 
controllers and other components are less tolerant than others when it 
comes to timing.  There have been situations where, like in your case, 
swapping a disk controller made the difference between failure and 
success.  There is no easy answer here, except to say that despite best 
efforts, not all hardware is created equal.

I think NitrOS-9 Level 2 may magnify problems with CoCo 3s or hardware 
that aren't necessarily seen under Disk BASIC for the following 
reasons:

	(1) NitrOS-9 Level 2 runs the CoCo 3 at 2MHz continuously whereas Disk 
BASIC does not.  Clock speed increases means higher speed, but also 
shorter cycles.  Hardware may be just on the edge at this mode, and 
sometimes will cause random glitches.
	(2) NitrOS-9 Level 2 also uses the MMU and GIME extensively.  It is 
constantly using MMU registers to swap memory in and out.  This hard 
banging on the GIME may bring out anomalies that aren't seen on Disk 
BASIC because, again, BASIC doesn't hit these registers very much.
	(3) When formatting a disk, NitrOS-9 assumes double sided 40 track.  
Disk BASIC only uses 35 tracks on one side.  So more of an "untouched" 
area of the disk is being formatted by NitrOS-9, possibly revealing 
media flaws that Disk BASIC would not have seen.
	(4) NitrOS-9 Level 2 sees and uses all RAM.  If you have flaky memory 
somewhere, changes are NitrOS-9 will hit it, and it could come at the 
worst possible moment (i.e. the RAM is allocated for code usage, and 
execution through bad RAM may cause bad results, jumps, etc)
	(5) NitrOS-9 Level 2 is a "boot and use" OS.  Disk BASIC is a 
"use-reset" system where you load a game or other M/L program, use it 
then reset.  Since NitrOS-9 tends to run longer without reset, there is 
the tendency for things to get hotter (especially at 2MHz mode) and 
heat can also do weird things to a computer's operating ability.

I'm not saying any of these were the cause of what you were seeing.  
These are just my observations as to how NitrOS-9 pushes the CoCo in 
ways that BASIC does not, and therefore could reveal underlying issues 
in systems that have marginal or less than tolerant hardware.

> 2) Other than the formatting, NitrOS-9 otherwise behaved perfectly. Is 
> there
> a GUI available for it? I have downloaded the "Getting Started with
> NitrOS-9" and the "NitrOS-9 Level 2 Windowing System" manuals (which 
> are
> very good!). It seems to me that much of the GUI elements are already 
> built
> in to the system. I know of MultiVue but I shudder at trying to run 
> that
> again.

There is Multi-Vue, but frankly I'm no fan of it either.  I can 
understand Tandy's reasoning behind putting basic windowing elements 
(like drawing and managing windows) in system state modules like 
windint and grfdrv, but I believe that a better GUI could be built 
mostly from a user state program.  Nick, I believe this is something 
that you could probably do rather well, and I'm sure your talents would 
be welcome in this department.

> 3) Are there additional manuals available? I read in the "Getting 
> Started"
> manual about a "NitrOS-9 Commands Reference" and a "Technical 
> Reference"
> manual.

Those are being worked on.  They are massive manuals, and I'm going 
through and converting existing HTML into Word documents where they are 
much easier to edit and manage.  I'm in the Technical Reference but 
haven't gotten very far.  Bob Emery is handling the Commands Reference. 
  These documents are critical to learning NitrOS-9 and how to get 
around in it.

> 4) Have there been any new (well, newer than 1992) applications 
> written for
> OS-9/NitrOS-9?

I'm sure there have been, though I can't think of any big ones at the 
moment.

> Boisy and everyone else involved have done a marvalous job with 
> NitrOS-9. I
> guess I'm looking at it all from a newbie/outsider perspective. 
> NitrOS-9
> could do with a bit of "glitz". This would come in the form of a GUI 
> front
> end and updated applications. Sure, I'd like to develop for it but it's
> taken me over 15 years to get this far. I hate having to battle with 
> the OS.
> The OS should be a tool towards creating other applications. So far, 
> OS-9
> has been like a bent screwdriver with me spending more time trying to 
> get
> the bends out that actually fixing the job at hand.

All of the work up to this point has been getting the operating system 
at a level of usability so that good applications can be written.  I 
think V03.02.04 comes very close to that.  So far, there have been no 
complaints and everyone that has used it has praised it.  I think this 
latest release is the best so far.

Again, the glitz comes from guys like you.  I'm giving you the stable 
base from which you can launch your applications.  Now we just need to 
see those applications.

> NitrOS-9 certainly has fixed many of the problems of the original CoCo3
> OS-9.
>
> I'me determined to get it right this time. I've spent a week on it so 
> far.
> I'll give it another week...before giving up again.
>

I think that with some patience and help from us, you will be able to 
get a usable system put together.

Your use of NitrOS-9 brings up an issue that I have ignored up to this 
point.  I don't think anyone has needed the 50Hz clock, since everyone 
using it seems to be in the US.  There are two modules that have to 
change to accommodate 50Hz users like yourself.  I will work to put 
together a distribution especially for you that addresses the 50Hz 
issue, and I will start putting those disk images into the project 
starting with the next release (V03.02.05).  I don't plan on releasing 
again for some time, so I'll make the disk images and email them to 
you.

Robert Gault can refresh my memory here.  rel and clock2_soft are the 
candidates, correct Robert?