[arg_discuss] Social Interaction in ARGs

[Christy Dena]

Yes, I like Markus's quote too. That is exactly the kind of definition
that facilitates the continnum I was after. There can be a sliding
scale of difference between the ordinary and pretended self. To me
(and others), the difference between the ordinary self and the
pretended self is a signficant part of the experience, and therefore
influences design. I mean, there are millions of people worldwide
playing World of Warcraft, not World of Walmart. To be honest, I don't
quite understand why all of you think it isn't a factor, and don't see
any difference between roleplay in ARGs and RPGs.


On 6/25/08, Brian Clark <bclark at gmdstudios.com> wrote:

> Markus, I love the clarity of:

>

> "an ordinary self, a pretended self and a consciousness of their

> differences"

>

> That actually seems to be a unifying concept across these other competing

> definitions: the arguments are about how far the pretend self has to be from

> the ordinary self to count as roleplaying.

>

> Christy, though, I want to go back to one of the definitions you offered:

>

> "creating a novel persona for your character that fits in the context of the

> game world and interacting with others through that persona"

>

> I'd argue that "novel" is a pretty high bar to set to qualify. "For your

> character" suggests a certain level of roleplaying is already happening,

> doesn't it -- because the MMPORG mechanic subtly encourages that by

> producing a digital proxy. It also leaves itself fuzzy with the "interacting

> with others" because MMPORGs historically can separate human-to-human

> interaction into "player/player" with everything else "player/environment".

> ARGs don't have such an easy shortcut.

>

> If you took Yee's definition and reworked it, it sounds like Markus'

> statement from Lillard:

>

> "creating a persona for yourself that fits in the context of the game world

> and interacting with others through that persona"

>

> This to me seems axiomatic, at least in the player-centered definition of

> what is an ARG. That's what underscores that Unfiction is an OOG space:

> because the rest of the world becomes "the game world". I'd go so far to

> argue that if people weren't at least subtly "creating personas" to

> "interact with others" it wouldn't be the Internet, which has a culture of

> anonymous voyeurism that ARGing (like other community dynamics) actually

> manages to overcome in amazing ways.

>

> The lack of roleplaying is the emergent behavior from the interaction of the

> system, not the roleplaying.

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On

> Behalf Of Markus Montola

> Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 3:13 AM

> To: arg_discuss at igda.org

> Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] Social Interaction in ARGs

>

> It all depends on how you define role-play. A good definition of

> pretend play (iirc by Lillard) assumes an ordinary self, a pretended

> self and a consciousness of their differences. So if you don't know

> she is a character, you can't pretend. Of course this is not always

> simple; especially if young children play.

>

> Usually.

>

> Our research project (IPerG) ran a few games using a lot of pervasive

> role-play, where players were explicitly asked to treat everyone as

> part of the play. Thus, they were role-playing in their everyday

> interactions with bus drivers and clerks -- and incidentally some of

> these folks (like a real nurse working in a real hospital) turned out

> to be involved with game content.

>

> As a result we ended up with lots and lots of gray areas between play

> and not play, often involving pretence, role-play et cetera.

>

> We have published quite a lot on role-play, pervasive play and the

> social expansion to the ordinary world. I'm more than happy to provide

> links if anyone's interested.

>

>

> Best,

>

>   - Markus Montola -- writing a PhD. on pervasive role-play

>

>     University of Tampere Hypermedialab

>     Mobile: +358 44 544 2445

>

>> I'm with you, Mike. I think as soon as a player treats a character as

>> real, which they know (or suspect) to be a fictional construct of some

>> kind, that puts them in the realm of roleplay. They're placing their

>> own persona into the game.

>>

>> Also, I don't think there's really any difference between a person

>> playing an Orc (or Shakespeare) and themselves. The vast majority of

>> players are not skilled enough to behave in any manner other than

>> their own, if that makes sense. And this isn't bashing the player's

>> skill levels - it's an observation of how rare real acting talent is.

>> So even though the Orc mask may give them permission to loosen up and

>> not worry so much about what other people might think - they're still

>> essentially being themselves.

>>

>> But I'll provide the same caveat as Mike as well. I'm no academic. So

>> I may just be missing the point.

>>

>> Wendy

>>

>>

>> On Mon, June 23, 2008 7:53 am, Mike Monello wrote:

>>> I am the furthest thing from an academic you can get, but it seems to

>>> me that when a player knowingly interacts with a fictional character

>>> they have crossed the threshold into role-playing. Whether they send

>>> an email or

>>> go on a mission or more involved experience, they have made that jump

>>> into the game space, even if the character they've chosen is a close

>>> version of themselves. I don't recognize a difference between someone

>>> playing a character exactly like themselves in a known fiction and

>>> someone playing an Orc or any other fantastical creature - both are

>>> operating within the safety and knowledge of a fictional framework

>>> that allows them to make choices and play in a way that real life

>>> absolutely would not.

>>>

>>> Either that or I've totally missed what y'all smart folks are talkin'

>>> about!  :)

>>>

>>> ---

>>> Mike Monello

>>> Partner, Campfire

>>> http://www.campfirenyc.com

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>>

>>> Am 23.06.2008 um 04:50 schrieb Christy Dena:

>>>

>>>> Cool. ARGs really are about performance in so many ways.

>>>>

>>>> But that still isn't the aspect of roleplay I was talking about. I'm

>>>> after a definition that indicates how much the 'performance' of the

>>>> player differs from their everyday self. There must be a continuum

>>>> or

>>>> something that shows the difference between a player performing an

>>>> Orc

>>>> or Shakespeare on the one end and being themselves but doing

>>>> something

>>>> they have never done before on the other (and all that is in

>>>> between).

>>>> [I don't have any of my books with me and am on short periods of

>>>> dial-up and so can't research this myself right now.] Hmm, perhaps I

>>>> shouldn't of put the draft up just yet after all. :\

>>>>

>>>> Anyway, I think ARG players are usually called on to do more on the

>>>> 'other' end of the spectrum. But, I may be entirely wrong and so

>>>> would

>>>> love to know more. Jan sent me a great example of roleplaying in her

>>>> ARG. I'd love to see others.

>>>>

>>>> John Evans has actually moved all of the content into the ARGology

>>>> wiki. So, please, feel free to hack and add at will!:

>>>>

>>>> http://www.argology.org/wiki/index.php?title=Social_Interaction

>>>>

>>>> A start may be to add a quote from Jane's essay in the roleplay

>>>> section!

>>>>

>>>

>>>

>>> _______________________________________________

>>> ARG_Discuss mailing list

>>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org

>>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss

>>>

>>

>>

>> Wendy Despain

>> quantumcontent.com

>>

>> _______________________________________________

>> ARG_Discuss mailing list

>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org

>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss

>>

>

>

>

> _______________________________________________

> ARG_Discuss mailing list

> ARG_Discuss at igda.org

> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss

>

> _______________________________________________

> ARG_Discuss mailing list

> ARG_Discuss at igda.org

> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss

>