[arg_discuss] Sept. 15 IRC Chat Log

[Andrea Phillips]

Contained herein for your edutainment!

The highlights:

* Not much ARGy happened at Austin GDC, it would seem.
* We're moving ahead on the Trends paper and the press kit, more to
come from me on that soon.
* We are enthusiastic about using the list to post links to
interesting discussions or news going on in the ARG world, so have at!
* Sorry again, everybody, for not re-announcing this better. Technical
difficulties. I'm sending myself to bed without dinner tonight.

********************************
<Rhiannon> Hi, everybody, and welcome to today's ARG SIG chat! I'm
Andrea Phillips, and I
<Rhiannon> Very sincerely apologize
<Rhiannon> For the incredible disorganization around this event today. :)
<Rhiannon> We don't really have a big, formal agenda
<subversified> hey, it's happening. that's a good start. :-)
<LibertyMcG> I'm going to log out and log back in on mIRC - brb
*** Signoff: LibertyMcG (Quit: http://unfiction.com/chat/)
<AndresQ> unformal agenda?
<Rhiannon> Yeah
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channel #arg_sig
<Rhiannon> Unformal, I love it :)
<Sam> yeah, that would be nice, considering the number of presents here
<AndresQ> haha, shoot !
<Rhiannon> First off, does anyone have a report from Austin GDC?
*** LibertyM is now known as LibertyMcGeo
<LibertyMcGeo> Ah, now I feel better :)
<AndresQ> shall we do a little introduction round?
<Rhiannon> Oh, yes, good idea
<Rhiannon> Introductions all around!
<bethadillon> *waits*
<Morbus> FINE.
<Morbus> [[[
<Morbus> Kevin Hemenway, coauthor of a few O'Reilly books, contributor
and tech-editor to a dozen others, is better known as Morbus Iff, the
creator of disobey.com, which bills itself as "content for the
discontented." Publisher and developer of more home cooking than you
could ever imagine, he obsessively strives to stick his fingers in as
many pies as possible. His latest is 60 Blank White Cards, a melding
of various game forms he's come t
<Morbus> o love over the decades (including ARGs and CCGs).
<Rhiannon> Don't be shy
<Morbus> ]]]
<Morbus> (60bwc.com)
<bethadillon> Heehee
<Rhiannon> Fancy!
<AndresQ> Andr$B-u(B(c)s (in the ARG list Andr$B-u(B(c)s Mart$B-u!b(Bnez Quijano),
advergamer, wanting to do the very first ARG of ARGentina (always tell
the same joke, I think I will never get tired of it)
<AndresQ> also the creator of Greg, the tiny sample ARG :)
<imbri> haha
<Rhiannon> It's a great joke =)
<AndresQ> we argentinians are meant to do ARGs
<Sam> I'm Sam. I'm officially a web designer. Unofficially I'm a
number of other thing. It's my first time here and my first formal
(more or less) introduction to the sig
<Sam> True!
<bethadillon> Beth over here, freelance game writer (console style)
and recently getting involved in ARG writing in relation to doctoral
research in socially conscious game development, specifically in
Aboriginal/First Nations/Native American content. Woo!
<Rhiannon> Awesome.
<Tony> I'm Tony - 1st time here - been reading the SIG mail - being a
sponge soaking things up - but not cleaning other people's messes - a
founder of Torgame - working on a bunch of things
<imbri> i'm brooke thompson. i've been around the arg community in
various roles for a while now. i do trainings games and just finished
up with the first book/chapter of eldritch errors
<LibertyMcGeo> Liberty McGeo, I'm in an art residency where my thesis
is on altering reality by altering the collective dream.
<LibertyMcGeo> I'm new to ARGs, but think they will be good tool for my thesis.
<subversified> I'm Wendy Despain. I worked in-house on a couple of
ARGs for television series. Now I'm a freelancer doing consulting and
video game writing and ARGs.
<JohnEvans> I'm John Evans, aspiring game developer and coder,
interested in all types of games...nothing published yet but I do have
a few cool web-based games written in PHP, well I think they're cool.
<subversified> hmm. mystery jones usually makes it to these things.
anyone seen him?
<Rhiannon> Hm, is that everybody?
<Rhiannon> No, I haven't seen him
<Rhiannon> Nor heard from him in a bit
<Sam> I'm Sam again. And I have a drinking problem. Is this the
alcoholics SIG? :P
<Rhiannon> Adam Martin won't be in today, either
<AndresQ> Andrea ?
<AndresQ> you're missing
<Rhiannon> Oh, I thought my intro counted
<bethadillon> Heehee
<Rhiannon> I'm Andrea Phillips, your friendly leadership council
representative; formerly of Perplex City and Cloudmakers, now
desperately scrabbling for paying work!
<Sam> nice
<Rhiannon> I tells it like I sees it :)
<bethadillon> Heehee
<Rhiannon> So! My agenda for today is:
<Rhiannon> * Talk about Austin GDC
<Rhiannon> * Talk about the Trends in ARGs paper
<Rhiannon> * Talk about SIG meta-issues and anything people want to bring up
<Rhiannon> And I'd like to apologize that Adam can't be here, our
fearless chairman is kept busy by NCsoft.
<Rhiannon> Also he managed not to have internet access at home. The
mind boggles. :)
<Rhiannon> er, manages
<Morbus> working on the 13th and 14th MMO? ;)
<Sam> poor Adam :(
<Rhiannon> So first up, Austin GDC, did anyone here go or have
anything exciting to say about it?
<subversified> I attended
<Rhiannon> Was it exciting?
<subversified> I enjoyed it. I mostly went to the sessions on game
writing though. I think there's a lot to learn about interactive
narrative.
<Rhiannon> *nod*
<Rhiannon> I wonder if those sessions are available online.
*Rhiannon* The time is now 17:30.
<subversified> the Austin gdc is much more focused than the "main" gdc
or whatever they're calling it now. It's primarily about mmo's, game
audio, and game writing
<subversified> gamasutra covered a lot of them. i think you can see
summaries by searching their site for "AGDC"
<Rhiannon> Hm, OK
<subversified> and the audio is available, but I think you have to pay for it
<Rhiannon> *nod*
<subversified> i think there may have been more representation for
ARGs in the "community" related sessions, but I wasn't able to attend
most of those
<Rhiannon> Did any of the SIG people wind up getting together, that you know of?
<Rhiannon> Or: Hey, didja run into Adam?
<subversified> I did run into Adam, but that's pretty much all we managed.
<subversified> it was a very quick conversation. we were both pretty
busy with our respective responsibilities
<subversified> I don't know if the ARGish gather was a success. I
didn't make it.
<Rhiannon> Hah
<Rhiannon> Ah, well
<Rhiannon> I'm hoping next year I can start going to conferences again
<Rhiannon> It is a dream of mine
<bethadillon> Same
<Sam> me too
<subversified> is this a lean year for freelance arg workers?
<Rhiannon> OK, so next up, the Trends paper
<Rhiannon> I'm not sure.
<subversified> ok, the paper
<Rhiannon> I haven't been able to travel for family reasons
*** labfly (lurker at chat-solu-E4FC95C5.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net) has
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<subversified> hello lablfly
<imbri> it hasn't been that lean, i don't think - lots of
opportunities, but not always in what you'd like to be doing
<subversified> labfly
<labfly> hey everybody
<Sam> Hi there Labfly
<Tony> hi labfly
<subversified> so, the trends paper?
<Rhiannon> So!
<Rhiannon> I suggested this Trends paper
<Rhiannon> And I thought it went into this great darkness, because
Gmail ate all of the replies instead of putting them in my inbox!
<subversified> i think people generally considered it a good idea
<Rhiannon> However, I am still keen to do such a thing, despite being
sidetracked by apparent lack of response, the begining of the school
year, and so on
<Rhiannon> Basically I just wanted to say, I plan to take it back to
the list for further talk, now that I've found the responses
<bethadillon> Yay
<subversified> cool
<LibertyMcGeo> I responded and said I'd be interested in helping. I
know I'm new, but it interests me.
<Sam> Neat
<Tony> what is it that you wish to do - track tends?
<Rhiannon> We do have other projects we've wanted to do, in terms of
making a press kit "what is an ARG" and so on
<Rhiannon> But I don't think we've had much headway in, you know, actual content
<Sam> That would be nice
<Rhiannon> I think if we can get this Trends paper done, I'll try to
use the same method to get a press kit done in 1Q next year
<Rhiannon> Or if anybody wants to start on it now, you are *more than
welcome* :)
<Rhiannon> Thought, anyone?
<subversified> I think there's a spot for it on the wiki
<Rhiannon> I made a spot for Trends
<Rhiannon> A stub, really
<Rhiannon> Is there one for the press kit, too?
<Morbus> i did a massmedia explanation about pxc's second season.
<subversified> I think so, but apparently I'm too lazy to go look :-)
<Morbus> for nowpublic.com, who wanted me to cover it.
* Morbus roots around.
<Rhiannon> Did you?
<Morbus> http://www.nowpublic.com/perplex_city_arg_starts_season_2
<bethadillon> Would something like a "how to tell your ARG was a
success" rubric help? I need parameters to measure "success" by
myself.
<Morbus> some of my other stories about pxc, written for the
"mundanes" are at: http://www.nowpublic.com/tag/perplex%2520city
<Rhiannon> You know, it probably would help
<Morbus> my personal rubric for success is: did people have fun? ;)
<imbri> if only agencies agreed ;)
<Rhiannon> Heh
<bethadillon> Heehee
<Morbus> i'm sinking about 10k into /prize money/ for 60BWC, and about
half that for advertising.
<bethadillon> How do you measure fun?
<AndresQ> he
<Morbus> i expect nothing back besides enjoyment ;)
<bethadillon> Ehehe
<Sam> another nice parameter would be "Did people went crazy?"
<Rhiannon> I did an interview a short time ago asking me if PXC was a success
<bethadillon> AHAHA!
<bethadillon> Nice
<Rhiannon> Sort of a bittersweet question.
<subversified> what was your answer?
<Rhiannon> Anyway.
<Rhiannon> It was along the lines of, we sold millions of cards, and
we built something beautiful, but if it were so very successful, I'd
still be working on season 2. :)
<Rhiannon> Or maybe :(
<Morbus> :)
<labfly> could the trends paper be included as part of the press kit?
i'm sure the trends would be info that might help promote ARGs as well
<bethadillon> Yeah
<Rhiannon> It could, potentially
<Rhiannon> That's a nice idea.
<Tony> Do you think a press kit from a group like this is valuable?
<AndresQ> +1
<Tony> seems to me that it needs to be driven by actual ARGs
<Rhiannon> Tony: The idea is to have a bunch of read-made resources to
help small teams make pitches
<Rhiannon> er, ready-made
<Tony> k
<subversified> also, the press goes looking for "what is an arg?" and
doesn't come up with any easy answers
<Sam> I really like the press kit idea
<subversified> so all args have a hard time getting press because they
don't know how to put it in context
<Tony> I think education is key - am not dissing the idea of a press kit
<Rhiannon> there's been a lot of support for the idea beforebut less
success getting people to step forward and write
<AndresQ> but the ARGs, I think, doesn't want press as an ARG
<subversified> that's why a press kit from a group like this would be
good - it would (hopefully) be more general, less biased, etc.
<AndresQ> rather, as "something that is going on"
<Rhiannon> Yeah
<AndresQ> because ARG press kind of ruins the idea
<Sam> we are mystic people
<subversified> yes, but they don't want to be billed as a hoax
<bethadillon> Hmm
<subversified> and they do want press
<AndresQ> I would like people to keep beleving, not to read a press about a game
<Morbus> i think, nowadays, it's very hard for an arg to follow the
traditional tinag principles.
<AndresQ> this is not a game !!
<subversified> word of mouth is best, but it has to get started somehow
<Rhiannon> Also, and I speak as a journalism major here, reporters are lazy
<Morbus> i write about why i'm not fostering TINAG, or the curtain, at
http://www.60bwc.com/s1/entry/inspired-perplex-city
<Rhiannon> But I see it less as a source for reporters and more as a
source for investors or clients
<Sam> What if the press kit was actually an ARG? Spooky
<JohnEvans> I think the idea of a press kit is that if reporters are
going to write about ARGs anyway, we should give them what's most
useful to hear.
<imbri> we've had some fun "curtain" issues/discussions w/eldritch
<labfly> i think it would be really helpful to have something we could
point people to - i'm constantly tap dancing the what is an arg answer
and it would be so helpful to have something that lays it out as well
as speaks about trends from a less biased group
<Rhiannon> *nod*
<imbri> and schmeldritch.com (part of the 'solution')
<imbri> but, yeah, a press something would be very very nice
<Rhiannon> Maybe I should add that to Trends: The curtain is getting a
little more translucent. :)
<subversified> in some cases
<Rhiannon> Yeah, in some cases
* Morbus nods
<Rhiannon> No trend is going to cover every game in play
<Rhiannon> More a matter of picking out common threads.
<Sam> It's been about 6 years now... we can't keep it a mystery forever
<subversified> more than 6 years. but that's a conversation for another day. :-)
<Rhiannon> Hehehehe
<Sam> true
<subversified> it sounds a bit like we're moving from "trends paper"
to "why won't anyone get involved"?
<AndresQ> an ARG without TINAG is an ARG ? let there be debate !
<Rhiannon> I'm going to send an email to the thread asking people to
sign up to contribute to the press kit whatever they think belongs in
it.
<Morbus> AndresQ: i argue, yes <g>
<Tony> I went to a session on Mars exploration just few night ago
<Sam> I think it could be too.... but it's boring
<subversified> if that doesn't work, you might consider breaking the
press kit down into smaller pieces and asking certain people to
contribute little bits
<Rhiannon> And I'll follow up with my Trends thread and its responses.
<Rhiannon> *nod*
<Tony> ok hit the return by mistake
<labfly> i would love to help with the press kit
<Rhiannon> Maybe a bit of both.
<subversified> press kit seems like a big issue, I think people don't
really know where to start
<Rhiannon> Yeah, but it doesn't need to be. Hmm.
<Sam> I would be willing to help a little bit with the press kit as well
<subversified> yes, perception vs. reality :-)
<Rhiannon> OK, in my email I'll make some suggestions for things that
belong in the kit that people could do
<Rhiannon> Bite-sized things
<subversified> cool
<Tony> I can help with this  -
<Rhiannon> Awesome :)
<AndresQ> a press kit aimed at what kind of audience?
<JohnEvans> I'd like to help, I just don't have much knowledge/experience...
<Tony> maybe an idea is to have presskits from games as an example
<Sam> ignorant press
<labfly> press and clients?
<Rhiannon> I think, with both Trends and this, if we can make each
chunk small enough you could do it in an evening, our odds of success
are much higher
<Rhiannon> Yeah, media and clients
<Rhiannon> OK!
<labfly> ok!
<Rhiannon> I need to send at least two emails tonight, if not several!
<Rhiannon> Can I conclude this part of our conversation?
<AndresQ> media and clients sounds good
<Morbus> Rhiannon: don't forget to remind people there's a meeting today.
<AndresQ> haha
<Tony> !
<Rhiannon> I did
<Rhiannon> Three times
<subversified> yep, i think we can move on
<Rhiannon> Did none of the emails make it?
<Morbus> ;)
<Sam> I think not
<Rhiannon> Or did one of them?
<Rhiannon> Yeesh
<Morbus> Rhiannon: i only received one, at 4PM EST.
<Rhiannon> OK. I thought at least that one made it.
<Morbus> the "happens in ONE HOUR" one.
<Tony> yes it did
<Rhiannon> I sent one at 9am EST, but I think it was from the wrong
account and didn't make it
<Rhiannon> And I only realised this when I saw the "Yeah, is there a
meeting or what?" email at like 2pm
<Rhiannon> Sigh
<Rhiannon> I aplogise
<Rhiannon> It's been religious holidays for me
<Morbus> i was joshin'.
<Tony> moving on...
<Rhiannon> Yeah, but I feel bnad :)
<Rhiannon> OK, moving on.
<AndresQ> happy new year!
<subversified> we still love you Rhiannon :-)
* AndresQ loves Rhiannon
<Rhiannon> ARG meta-issues: IGDA is slowly working its way through
making technology and policy changes
<Sam> Group hug!
<Rhiannon> I know not where they will land
<Rhiannon> (Oh, thank you so much, everybody. :)
<AndresQ> the arg examples page still doesn't link to my sample ARG :'(
<Rhiannon> Really?!
<AndresQ> I even wrote a post-mortem
<AndresQ> really
<Rhiannon> Do me a favor?
<Rhiannon> Email me andrhia at gmail.com
<AndresQ> it's all Adam's fault (since he's not here, we can blame him)
<Rhiannon> With any pertinent information
<Rhiannon> And I'll put it on my list for tonight to try to sort it out
<AndresQ> wiii! thanks
<Rhiannon> I think Adam delegated it to me and I never did it, actually O_o
* AndresQ loves rhiannon no more
<Rhiannon> There was cryptic email
<Rhiannon> Sigh
<Sam> :D
<Rhiannon> I'm sorry, guys.
<subversified> I think it was on the "news" page for a while
<Rhiannon> I shall try to suck less going forward!
<subversified> i used it as a sample for someone who was asking me about it
<AndresQ> if you need any help, I can give some time!
*Rhiannon* The time is now 18:00.
<Rhiannon> When you email me can you include IM info in case I need you?
<AndresQ> subversified that's nice! did they liked it?
<AndresQ> of course
<Rhiannon> Thanks. :)
<Rhiannon> Do we have any other issues to discuss?
<Rhiannon> And am I railroading us through all of this too fast?
<subversified> i haven't had any feedback on it. sorry. :-)
<Sam> you are doing great
<subversified> you're not going too fast. we've already been here an hour. :-)
<Tony> what specifically are the meta issues and what are the challemges?
<bethadillon> Har
<Rhiannon> Meta issues: We've been talking for a while about making a
super-secret secure list, or other mechanical changes to the way wo
operate
<Rhiannon> There are strong feelings both for and against this
<subversified> our community seems to be that way a lot. :-)
<Rhiannon> And we're basically punting on the issue for now, because
the IGDA itself is in the process of examining and probably changing
how it deals with SIGs and mailing lists and so on
<Rhiannon> I know, right?
<Morbus> i'd think it depend on what the super secret list is used for.
<Morbus> are we to talk or discuss specific problems with games we are
currently running?
<Rhiannon> The desire for the super secret list is to have a palce to
talk game management without it getting out to your players
<Morbus> or would it remain a general discussion list?
<Rhiannon> So yeah, that
<Rhiannon> And maybe also a place to talk smack about players and not
have it get back ot them
<AndresQ> probably the main problem is who get's access to that list
and who doesn't
<Rhiannon> And I mean
<Morbus> +100
<Morbus> ;)
<Rhiannon> I love and adore my husband, but sometimes I've got to
complain about HIM, too :)
<Morbus> AndresQ: aye
<Tony> sounds like a good thing o have a resource for dev teams
<Tony> i see the problem...
<Rhiannon> Yeah, the against side has to do with making second-class
SIG members and making people feel unwelcome
<Rhiannon> And deciding who gets to participate and on what criteria
<Sam> tricky
<AndresQ> but then the problem is: who is developer? those who have
done at least a game? etc
<Sam> we could virtually sign an NDA
<Rhiannon> It's genuinely a tough question, because everybody's got a
good point.
<Tony> yah
<Morbus> the nda is a possibility.
<Rhiannon> Hence why we've been ducking the question
<Morbus> don't worry about the gated community at all - just worry
about breaking trust and blacklists.
<Morbus> ;)
<Tony> there is no model that can be used here
<Rhiannon> And waiting to see where the chips fall with the IGDA and
their decisions :)
<imbri> i think such places exist in a much more informal manner -
your personal network, etc
<Rhiannon> Yeah
<Tony> yes agreed
<Rhiannon> And a budding developer might not know where to go for help
<subversified> sure, but it can be very lonely if you're trying to
build an arg all by yourself and haven't been able to attend
conferences and get to know people well enough to email them privately
<imbri> and if they're "budding" how does a formal list know that?
(criteria etc)
<imbri> hard issues
<Rhiannon> Yeah. Very hard.
<Tony> yes very
<Morbus> so, instead of a mailing list, it could be an opt-in list of
developers who are willing to have hopefuls contact them to talk
specifically.
<Rhiannon> Maybe that NDA-style agreement is the way to go.
<bethadillon> Yeah NDA discussions seem to be an offlist thing
<Tony> some of  us here are perfect examples
<labfly> it would be great to have a place to go to and if a budding
dev wanted "in" they could contact a member to gain entrance - discuss
their needs and the member could talk to the group
<bethadillon> I mean I wouldn't want to put anything on any mailing
list, secure or not, that could be searchable.
<Morbus> bethadillon: agreed.
<Rhiannon> Yeah, what beth says is the problem a lot of people have
with the existing SIG list
<Morbus> were i to join a list, i'd use metaphors for most any /specific/ event.
<Rhiannon> And one of the reasons why people think it isn't more active
<Rhiannon> Don't want your posts to be googleable.
<bethadillon> Exactly
<Rhiannon> Sigh.
<Morbus> i remember my first post to arg_discuss was "how do people
get their players to make choices?"
<Morbus> i got no responses. i dunno why.
<imbri> it depends on what you want to talk about, really
<imbri> i mean there are some great genre discussions that are public
- on blogs, forums, etc
<Rhiannon> Anyway, I think the idea for now is to wait to see what
technology is available to us when the IGDA is done thinking thinky
thoughts
<Rhiannon> Yeah.
<Sam> Maybe a private forum could work for this supersecretness?
<imbri> it's through those that relationships and networks are built
<subversified> imbri - one thought would be to post links to those
discussions to the mailing list
<Rhiannon> Hm
<Rhiannon> I like that a lot
<imbri> if the sig tried to foster that level of discussion
<Rhiannon> Just a "heads up, I saw this interesting thing"
<Rhiannon> I'd love that
<subversified> yes
<labfly> that's really good
<subversified> i hate to admit it, but i just don't have time to read
the unforums every day
<Rhiannon> They need to fix RSS
<Morbus> nor I.
<Sam> they go way to fast
<imbri> heh, i'm admin there and i don't :) (shhhhh)
<imbri> i just use feeds :)
<imbri> a feed for each forum i'm interested in
<Rhiannon> I haven't been able to get an unforum RSS feed to work in eons
<imbri> yeah, it changed the way it worked
*** gogogic (jonas at chat-solu-1389C60A.du.xdsl.is) has joined channel #arg_sig
<Rhiannon> I haven't been able to figure it out again :)
<imbri> http://forums.unfiction.com/forums/rss.php?f=0&r=1&c=15
<Rhiannon> And I'm sure there are fifty blogs I should be readingthat I'm not
<imbri> that's the forums as a whole
<bethadillon> Heh heh
<Rhiannon> Ooohhh
<Rhiannon> Scary
<imbri> http://forums.unfiction.com/forums/rss.php?f=15&r=1&c=15 (general meta)
<subversified> right, Rhiannon. so it would be nice if people would
post to the mailing list when they found something interesting
<Rhiannon> Yeah
<Rhiannon> Precisely
<imbri> and you can change the f=?? for whatever forum you want
<Rhiannon> Or even if you think you wrote something interesting
<Rhiannon> Don't be afraid to toot your own horn
<Rhiannon> I vote a little self-promotion isn't terrible
<subversified> sure
<Morbus> i must interrupt: my daughter just got on the couch all by
herself for the first time. YAY!
<subversified> woohoo! yay for child development!
<imbri> isn't that a RUN!
* Sam claps to Morbus' daughter
<Rhiannon> Woohoo!
<bethadillon> Yay!
<AndresQ> independence! fredooooom!
<Rhiannon> I feel like we might be about done here, officially.
<Morbus> hehe
<subversified> i have a question
<Rhiannon> Go on :)
<subversified> the last time i did have a chance to look at the
unforums I noticed they were using the phrase "chaotic fiction"
<subversified> what is that?
<subversified> and how is it different from an arg?
<Morbus> there's a whole post about that by spacebass.
<Morbus> hold on.
<bethadillon> Heehee, I was wondering the same thing
<Rhiannon> I've been parsing it as "interactive narrative without puzzles"
<imbri> args are a form of chaotic fiction
* Morbus roots around.
<Rhiannon> But yeah, Spacebass has a whole big thing about it
<Sam> I think it's just another early term
<AndresQ> can you give a link morbus?
<JohnEvans> He meant it to be a term describing lots of 'new' types of
media, including ARGs...I think.
<Morbus> i'm finding, i'm finding.
<imbri> http://www.unfiction.com/compendium/2006/11/10/undefining-arg/
<Rhiannon> *nod*
<imbri> there's a gret discussion about it in the meta forum as well
<Morbus> there ya go. thanks imbri ;)
<Morbus> i've seen cross-media entertainment being used.
<Rhiannon> I think it was trying to address the problem of trying to
decide if something was an ARG or not
<Morbus> mostly by those who find it difficult to "sell" arg or chatoci fiction
<imbri> http://forums.unfiction.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=20251
<Rhiannon> When that's an exclusionary behavior, and the community is
trying to be more inclusive of awesome interactive experiences
<Rhiannon> Regardless of whether they fit any formal definition of 'ARG'
<Rhiannon> Tell me if I've got it all wrong :)
<AndresQ> people, I have to go now
<Rhiannon> Nice to see you!
<Rhiannon> Glad you stopped by.
<subversified> i'm not sure coming up with new words will solve the
exclusionary behavior, but I'm glad someone is trying something
<bethadillon> I see
<AndresQ> rhiannon, I sent you an e-mail already
<Rhiannon> I see that, and thank you
<subversified> thanks for the links
<AndresQ> see you on the next chat!
<Rhiannon> I'll be moving on my to-dos in probably around two hours
* AndresQ fades away
<Tony> bye
<Rhiannon> See you next time :)
<Sam> Nice meeting
<AndresQ> always a pleasure
*** Signoff: AndresQ (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.6/2007072518])
<labfly> bye
<Rhiannon> Anyone else?
<Rhiannon> Questions, concerns, comments, blue-faced rants?
<subversified> how many people are "in charge" of this sig? is it three?
<Rhiannon> Or, you know, green-faced ones. I won't judge.
* Sam thinks...
<Rhiannon> Adam Martin's the chairman
<Rhiannon> And I'm on the leadership council
<Rhiannon> The state of other people is kind of in flux
<subversified> ah, so it's kind of two
<Rhiannon> Evan Jones may or may not be on the leadership council
<Rhiannon> And we'd been trying to find volunteers to help out more,
but I think that process burned out somewhere
<Rhiannon> I am not sure where.
<subversified> i was just thinking that with more than one person in a
leadership role, you guys could carry on conversations amongst the
three of you on the general mailing list
<Rhiannon> Heh
<subversified> and as people see more conversation happeneing, they're
bound to join in
<Rhiannon> And here is where I tell you I haven't heard from Adam in
like a month :)
<gogogic> volunteers for what
<subversified> right now it can be a little scary to post anything to
the discussion list
<gogogic> what needs to be done (task list)
<Morbus> i can spam some of my 60bwc.com posts there, I suppose. on
the whole tinag/no curtain/etc.
<Rhiannon> Go for it.
<subversified> there's a task list on the wiki
<Rhiannon> Love to see it. :)
<JohnEvans> The only thing scary is that it's like dropping things
down a dark hole...with no expectation of response. >_>
<Morbus> JohnEvans: yeah, that's happened to me
<LibertyMcGeo> Can I get a link to the wiki?
<Rhiannon> Right now I've got the attitude, and I believe I speak for Adam, of
<subversified> http://www.igda.org/wiki/Alternate_Reality_Games_SIG
<LibertyMcGeo> :) Thanks
<Rhiannon> If you want to work to further the SIG, absolutely just
volunteer for something you think needs doing
<Morbus> are any people on the sig actually playing any args right now?
<Morbus> i'd /love/ for an in-the-know pm-mind update on things.
<Rhiannon> Also a good idea
<Morbus> like "ARG B is doing interesting things with forums. Monkeys
flew around."
<Rhiannon> Yeah
<Rhiannon> I think there used to be more ARG news sites, but the
frequency seems to have stepped down
<Rhiannon> It's too bad that one site turned out to be an ARG, the
news on it was pretty great :)
<Morbus> yeah.
<bethadillon> Is there any possibility of work in guides on designing
ARGs, like "design documents", etc?
<subversified> it's my turn to apologize and skip out. thanks for
wrangling the meeting, Rhiannon.
<Rhiannon> Thanks for coming!
<subversified> bye everyone
<Morbus> i'm not even too interested in story development (ie.,
trail/plot/puzzles) so much as implementation ideals.
<Morbus> and this would seem to help out the Trends paper too.
<Rhiannon> Yeah, maybe
<Rhiannon> We have the White Paper
<bethadillon> The Game Writing SIG is putting together two books in
addition to the one they've already done--I wonder about the ARG SIG
doing a book on ARG development.
<bethadillon> Yeah the White Paper is good.
*** Signoff: subversified (Quit: )
<bethadillon> But there could be so much more.
<Rhiannon> But the methods and mechanics section in it is just a gloss, really
<bethadillon> Case studies, design documents, tools to help.
<bethadillon> Yes exactly
<Rhiannon> I badly want to do an update
<Morbus> yeah, no offense intended, but it's obvious reading the WP
that Rhiannon a) helped write it, b) worked on PXC.
<JohnEvans> Well, there's a "Methods and Mechanics" link on the Wiki
just waiting to be expanded.
<bethadillon> I know we're all secretive in ARGs here, but at the same
time it may greatly benefit the field for the SIG to put out a book on
it.
<bethadillon> Or yeah, start with the wiki.
* Rhiannon looks at Morbus
<Rhiannon> Please let's just not talk about that.
<Morbus> i will heartily volunteer to edit any said book or new documents.
<Rhiannon> Beth: Do you know about Dave Szulborski's books?
<bethadillon> I think there's an advantage to having it SIG-stamped.
* Morbus just finished his TINAG book, and disagreed with a healthy
amount of it.
<bethadillon> Yeah but that's a "play" guide
<Morbus> which inspired the whole "tinag/translucent curtain" post
i'll be shortly spamming to the list.
<Morbus> bethadillon: that's not his play guide.
<Morbus> his play guide was his second book, no?
<bethadillon> I've read both
<Rhiannon> Hmm
<Rhiannon> Maybe we should work up to a book
<bethadillon> Oops sorry my text was late Morbus, I didn't mean his
TINAG book there
<Rhiannon> I feel like we should try to work together in smaller stuff first
<Rhiannon> To get the hang of it, as it were
<Morbus> whatever happened to that list of every arg ever made?
*Rhiannon* The time is now 18:30.
<Rhiannon> The arg db?
<bethadillon> The thing is, there's a lot more detail to be had
<Morbus> i would think that a revising of the white paper could
benefit from an inclusion of research from there.
<bethadillon> For example, the Game Writing SIG is working on two books:
<bethadillon> http://www.igda.org/wiki/index.php/Game_Writers_SIG/Initiatives/The_Sequel/draft_chapter_outline/Genre_Book_Outline
<Rhiannon> Last I knew it was growing
<bethadillon> http://www.igda.org/wiki/index.php/Game_Writers_SIG/Initiatives/The_Sequel/draft_chapter_outline/Technique_Book_Outline
<Rhiannon> Beth: Yes, but the ARG SIG has a lot of trouble with follow-through.
<Rhiannon> A book is a little ambitious.
<bethadillon> Oh heehee.
<bethadillon> I guess I'm so used to the Writing SIG.
<bethadillon> Maybe just an update to the White Paper then and Wiki
work on Methods, etc.
<Tony> this might be a silly question
<Rhiannon> http://wiki.argdb.com/index.php?title=Main_Page
<Rhiannon> The ARG DB
<Sam> oh, I didn't know that
<Tony> what is the difference between the 2 SIGs
<Rhiannon> The Game Writing SIG is a special interest group about
writing in video games
<Tony> seems like Game writers would be part of ARG - or co-habit
<Rhiannon> The ARG SIG is a special interest group about alternate reality games
<Rhiannon> There's some overlap
<Rhiannon> But definitely not complete overlap
<JohnEvans> ARGs aren't completely writing, after all.
<Rhiannon> And video games are much bigger than ARGs :)
<JohnEvans> Game Writing in this sense is like writing narrative and
story for video games, not like 'designing' or creating games...
<Rhiannon> A much bigger category, I mean
<bethadillon> Yeah
<Tony> wish I could type faster
<Rhiannon> So I would assume threads like "Hey, how do you deal with
regional dialect? Do you ever use it?"
<bethadillon> There's the media/development/funding side, etc, etc.
<Rhiannon> I think I used to belong but it was sooooo very high-volume
<Sam> It's a nice SIG
<bethadillon> Anything from creating compelling characters to writers'
tools to getting work to reviewing writing in current new released
games... It varies.
<Tony> have often had troubles with the specialist - being a generalist
<Rhiannon> :)
<bethadillon> Heehee
<gogogic> I'm fairly new to this SIG and I am more of an ARG hobbyist
then a professional - my main focus is web based casual game
development. I wonder if anyone here can speak up about the general
interest in ARGs amongst game players.
<bethadillon> Well we're specialist in generalist.. uh.. yeah.
<gogogic> are people getting more interested in ARGs and are they
being corporated into other game concepts / fields to any extent
<bethadillon> A lot of us are writers for anything from games (ARGs,
video games, board games, pen-and-paper) to fiction to journalism and
so on.
<bethadillon> So we're specialists in writing most often.
<bethadillon> Well I'll say this...
<gogogic> or is it more of a fringe thing still...
<imbri> oh, i think "arg concepts" are being incorporated into things
left and right
<Rhiannon> Oh, totally
<bethadillon> I tried to swing ARGs as my PhD thesis research and it
was "meh'ed" at.
<imbri> chicken & egg thing, really, but being an ARGer - it's cause of us :)
<bethadillon> But when I talk about "serious games," the response changes.
<Rhiannon> Zeitgeist, Imbri
<Tony> hey gogogic - missed your introduction where do you hail from
<Morbus> gogogic: i'm working in that arena (web based casual game)
for 60 blank white cards, which has arg elements.
<Morbus> or will, at least ;)
<bethadillon> So I'd still stay it's fairly fringe, even in academic
communities.
<gogogic> I'm Icelandic
<gogogic> www.gogogic.is <-- one of the founders
<Sam> I'm ARGentinean :)
<bethadillon> Heehee
<gogogic> I feel that ARGs could even be incorporated as some sort of
meta-game in some situations
<Rhiannon> brb
<Sam> Well, that's what they are actually
<gogogic> create a game - for example a casual web game - and extend
the frame around it into a meta-game
<Morbus> gogogic: yeah, i'm heading there.
<Tony> Thing is all of humanity has been playing ARG's in one form or
another from the begging
<Morbus> the thing i'm working on now is part online CCG and part ARG.
<gogogic> Im not sure I'm making myself very clear but I have a couple
of ideas in my head that touch on this...
<Morbus> both can be enjoyed without the other
<gogogic> Mobus: cool
<bethadillon> Anyone know of any ARGs being used for social change
other than World Without Oil?
<Sam> There are people making others
<bethadillon> Which actually announces itself as an ARG... How do
people feel about that?
<Sam> including 42 Entertainment
<LibertyMcGeo> That's my field, actually - Args for social change
<LibertyMcGeo> That's what my thesis involves.
<LibertyMcGeo> I have something in development - as field work
<Morbus> bethadillon: i've announced mine as an arg, i think. or at
least implied it.
<LibertyMcGeo> but if I told you I'd have to kill you lol
<Morbus> there is another social change arg. i can't recall the name.
<Morbus> i think it was about iraq/iran somehow.
<bethadillon> MA or PhD, Liberty?
<JohnEvans> I think announcing yourself as an ARG or not is really
just a stylistic choice.
<LibertyMcGeo> Art residency
<bethadillon> Ahhh nice
<Rhiannon> Sorry..
<LibertyMcGeo> Which is nice, because I'm much more free to explore
outside of academic rigours
<bethadillon> Yeah I bet
<LibertyMcGeo> I'm curious about the curtain thing too, and args
announcing themselves as args.
<LibertyMcGeo> It seems like in order to reach a larger audience this
almost has to be done - to educate the audience and build confidence
in the production?
<Tony> exaclty
<Tony> in experience design
<Tony> we have to tell people
<LibertyMcGeo> It seems like the number of people who are willing to
jump down a rabbit hole is pretty small.
<gogogic> hehe
<bethadillon> I see
<Tony> when something starts, finishes
<Morbus> LibertyMcGeo: in my case, i'm offering a cash prize. I felt
that clear and immediate reveal of what's going on was necessary.
<Tony> where the edges are
<LibertyMcGeo> I'm looking at implementing two layers - an educational
marketing layer, and then an immersive suspension of disbelief layer.
<gogogic> yeah - I agree. I think that making the announcement is hard
to go around if you want to build on and expand the audience
<Morbus> LibertyMcGeo: ++
<Morbus> paste:
<Morbus> [[[
<Morbus> In modern ARG gameplay, mystery can work against you in other
ways. After the Halo 3 ARG Iris started, there was random speculation
on whether it was a 42 Entertainment game, in effect casting the
producer as another puzzle to be solved. If your mystery is working
too well, you may suffer as lonelygirl15 did, with players actively
seeking to ensnare you into an accidental reveal. Or you can watch as
griefers pretend to be characters
<Morbus>  or websites, causing the player base to further escape your
crafted reality so as to decide if something is "in-game" or not.
Similarly, players can erroneously associate your mystery with another
game, creating an amalgamation and speculation that often leads to
disappointment and wasted effort. Some PMs revel in this: after all,
it keeps the players talking, but it often causes them to envision
something much cooler than you actu
<Morbus> ally intend.
<Morbus> ]]]
<LibertyMcGeo> lol yep.
<bethadillon> Interesting
<LibertyMcGeo> Actually, I think it worked for Lonelygirl15 - they got
the views.
<LibertyMcGeo> But It created alot of hard feelings, so I don't think
it would work again.
<bethadillon> Yeah
<LibertyMcGeo> I think we're in a phase where the audience is
expanding - ARGs have the potential to go mainstream
<LibertyMcGeo> but to do that, they are going to have to gain the
trust of their audience.
<Morbus> and it's hard to trust something that doesn't admit it exists.
<LibertyMcGeo> lol yep
<Morbus> it'd be like putting your life savings in a tree called
Bigfoot's Saving and Loan
<LibertyMcGeo> *nods*
<LibertyMcGeo> The majority of people are too fearful to take the risk
of the unknown.
<Tony> seems we agree here
<Morbus> and, in the absense of a hint that this /is/ a game, people
worry forever about being tricked.
<Morbus> especially those who are not regular arg players.
<LibertyMcGeo> I would love to see true TINAG args still exist
<LibertyMcGeo> and I think they will.
<Tony> Am sure they will
<Morbus> people hate feeling stupid, and to believe in something, as
TINAG, and then realize TIAG, well...
<LibertyMcGeo> But I think the mainstream arg that is emerging out of
tinag will be more transparent.
<Morbus> yeah, i think they will.
<Morbus> i'd hate for them to go away.
<Morbus> i love a good wtf.
<LibertyMcGeo> Personally I love the mystery!
<LibertyMcGeo> Yeah the wtf too lol
<bethadillon> Yeah that one's been interesting
<bethadillon> Time for me to dash since I keep getting distracted by
looking for materials for my lit review, whew.
<bethadillon> Bye all!
<Morbus> ciao!
<LibertyMcGeo> I think args could be wonderful educational and team
building tools for schools and organizations.
<JohnEvans> Take care!
<LibertyMcGeo> Bye :)
*** Signoff: bethadillon (Quit: bethadillon)
<Tony> bye
<Morbus> LibertyMcGeo: well, there's actually a new one starting up!
<Morbus> just specifically for that.
<Morbus> hold on.
<LibertyMcGeo> Really?
<Morbus> there's also a mailing list specifically with that too.
<LibertyMcGeo> :)
<Morbus> i'll find both. hold ;)
<Morbus> http://helpmesolveamystery.com/
<Morbus> that's starting on the 21st, i think.
<imbri> liberty: i do training games for companies and government organizations
<LibertyMcGeo> Oh noes, a new rabbit hole to go down O.O
<imbri> bryan alexander talks about such games as well
<Morbus> this one was specifically designed for college students, so
says the creator.
<LibertyMcGeo> really? imbri? That sounds interesting. I'd like to do
that eventually.
<imbri> it can be interesting :)
<Morbus> bah, where is the list.
<imbri> it can also take you from a fun playful work at home
environment to a corporate one
<LibertyMcGeo> This looks very cool Morbus! Geez I wish I had more time!
<Morbus> http://lists.transmodiology.org/listinfo.cgi/argresearch-transmodiology.org
<Morbus> LibertyMcGeo: if you join the list and check the archives,
you'll see the PM goals of this project.
<Morbus> very recently - last two weeks.
<LibertyMcGeo> lol imbri - maybe it can make the corporate one more
fun and playful?
<imbri> well that's always the goal :)
<LibertyMcGeo> These are great links, Morbus! You are a wealth of info :)
<imbri> and sometimes it's a fun reminder of how lucky you are to be
working on your own from home
<Morbus> heh
*Rhiannon* The time is now 19:00.
<imbri> but sometimes you get to see all the "corporate" complaints amplified
<imbri> and not being used to them, that's really scary
<LibertyMcGeo> How so, imbri?
<LibertyMcGeo> amplified, I mean.
<imbri> the biggest thing that i love about it is that i can run the
exact same elements for a different audience and see how they react
<imbri> or change one or two things and see what difference that makes
<Rhiannon> Working from home is an interesting thing
<imbri> it's fantastic for testing theories
<LibertyMcGeo> I'll bet it is :)
<imbri> well, because you're the outsider, it seems that people like
to bitch to you about everything
<imbri> plus, you're there to "make things better" so they tend to
unload a lot of their dirty laundry right into your lap
<LibertyMcGeo> Someone was mentioning earlier how ARGs don't get the
same respect as serious games. But I think ARGs could be pitched as
the ultimate serious game.
<Rhiannon> Yeah
<Rhiannon> Or: You don't hear about the office politics at all
<Rhiannon> Which can be very good and very, very bad
<imbri> and you have no clue of the internal politics at play and have
about 2 meetings to figure that out before you find yourself in an
uncomfortable situation
<Rhiannon> Yeah
<LibertyMcGeo> Ugh, imbri - there ought to be a rule against that lol!
<Morbus> the definition of serious is important: ARGs arent' serious
games like video games (which costs years and millions to make) but
they are serious in the obsessiveness of the players.
<imbri> args are serious games, imo
<Morbus> which mimicks well to MMOs.
<Rhiannon> Well
<Rhiannon> I'd say video games and ARGs can both BE serious games
<Rhiannon> But neither is inherently :)
<LibertyMcGeo> Ah, but serious games are all about training and education.
<imbri> both explicitly: training, knowledge, community building, etc
<LibertyMcGeo> building skills.
<imbri> hmm, i lost my designations there
<Rhiannon> Where to me a serious game is a game played for a
meaningful real-world objective beyond having a good time
<Morbus> well, i'm not professing the opinion myself, mind - if one
were to read a definition of "serious" as one that you could pick up
on a shelf, or play on your console, or have a marketing department,
or blah blah blah
<imbri> but yeah, you can be overtly dealing with issues or not,
there's "serious games" at the root
<LibertyMcGeo> ARGs are far better genres for training people to
operate in a real environment than a video game ever could be.
<Rhiannon> The military's been playign dead serious war games for decades :)
<Morbus> LibertyMcGeo: hrm... i'm not sure about that.
<Tony> ARGs are far better genres for training people to operate in a
real environment than a video game ever could be. -  why is that?
<imbri> yeah, i wouldn't go that far - it would depend on what you
want them to operate on
<Morbus> well, maybe, i suppose. the training of a shooter/FPS.
<Tony> is there data?
<Morbus> vs. the training of a mind to solve puzzles.
<imbri> now, maybe augmented reality games
<LibertyMcGeo> The Army was behind developing the designation of serious games.
<LibertyMcGeo> It all started with dod funding.
<Rhiannon> Has to do with the interface for the game being the same as
the interface for doing your work
<LibertyMcGeo> That's what they meant - games that could train
soldiers to do their jobs.
<LibertyMcGeo> And games that could be used as a recruitment tool.
<Morbus> Rhiannon: by that definition, then ARGs that use IM and email
and web browsers are certainly serious for /me/, cos that's what my
day job is ;)
<LibertyMcGeo> Then the definition expanded into education and
corporate training.
<imbri> see, i think abstracting the game works well - give them the
tools in a different manner as well as the same one
<LibertyMcGeo> And of course then to "games that make money" lol.
<Rhiannon> Morbus: Do they further your ability to send email? ;)
<Rhiannon> And... is that the purpose of the game? :)
<Morbus> Rhiannon: i would be lying if i didn't check my email for a
game update, and instead got a work update and answered it faster than
i normally would have.
<Morbus> ;)
<LibertyMcGeo> lol Thanks to ARGs, I have amazing Web 2.0 chops lol
<imbri> but how much work have you put off looking at a game update ;)
<Sam> (I'm back. Yes, I was away)
<Morbus> imbri: oh, lord, don't make me count the days <g>
<Rhiannon> Hahha
<Rhiannon> That is some blindingly brilliant rationalization right there!
<LibertyMcGeo> rotfl
<imbri> but hey! you answered that email faster ;)
<Morbus> quantifiable evidence!
<LibertyMcGeo> If it wasn't for games, you'd be avoiding your inbox
<Rhiannon> Ahh, you guys kill me :)
<Morbus> "jeez, when FIA was running, Morbus answered his emails
nearly 250% faster than when there was no game running!"
<Rhiannon> Pahahah
<LibertyMcGeo> You could measure this :)
<Rhiannon> What about Twitter?
<Rhiannon> Was there a measurable result from that? :)
<LibertyMcGeo> Email response for ARG players vs. email response for
non ARG players lol
<Sam> nice parameter
<Sam> that could work as well for answering the phone. How much faster
do ARG players reach it?
<Rhiannon> Hmm
<Rhiannon> You know
<Rhiannon> You could seriously make a case for corporate productivity that way
<LibertyMcGeo> lol
<Rhiannon> By running a very light-scale internal game
<Rhiannon> And making people more invested in, well, reading email and
picking up the phone...
<LibertyMcGeo> Yep.
<Sam> Microsoft would love to hear about that
<Rhiannon> So would IBM, I think
<LibertyMcGeo> Suddenly ARGs could become the poster child of
productivity :) lol
<imbri> yeah, i have never used this argument in a pitch
<Rhiannon> Oh, sweet irony
<imbri> i'm seeing nice potential
<Sam> Nice topic for a disertation too
<Tony> interesting idea - corporate ARGs increase productivity
<LibertyMcGeo> Hey, what do you think I'm doing?
<Rhiannon> :)
<Morbus> Rhiannon: i think positive reinforcement is very important.
<Rhiannon> Yeah
<Morbus> Rhiannon: i suspect that the xbox 360 has done so well
/because/ of the gamerscore system.
<Rhiannon> It's genuinely a great point
<Morbus> (i argue this on 60bwc.com too <G>)
<LibertyMcGeo> I think it's really true.
<JohnEvans> I know I've bought games for the 360 that were available
in other ways...so that I could get achivements.
<Morbus> http://www.60bwc.com/s1/entry/inspired-xbox-360-achievements
<Rhiannon> I have to run for a minute, back shortly
<Morbus> JohnEvans: yes, same!
<LibertyMcGeo> I've spent a lot of time observing work habits in
corporate environments.
<LibertyMcGeo> People who play are much more productive than people who don't.
<imbri> tony: i actually have figures (somewhere) of productivity
increases based on the games we used (which, admitedly, were training
them on a new productivity tool, so it was probably the tool)
<LibertyMcGeo> overall.
<Sam> Cool observation
<imbri> but yeah, we were training basic outlook type skills as well
<Sam> I'm sure they are more creative as well
<Sam> in terms of solving a problem
<Tony> thanks imbri - I'd be interested to see them if possible
<imbri> also an email from an HR person going on and on about how our
game made their christmas party (5 months later) a success
<Tony> cool!
<imbri> they'd always had a sort of minimal attendence with people leaving early
<imbri> but they had gotten to know each other a bit more and so
showed up and brought spouses and hung out longer
<LibertyMcGeo> Yes, Sam I would agree.
<Morbus> afk for a bit. daughter bedtime, eating.
<LibertyMcGeo> And they have sharper skills, quicker response time.
<LibertyMcGeo> Bye Morbus
<Sam> interesting
<Sam> Bye Morb
<Tony> bye mobus - thanks
<LibertyMcGeo> And most importantly, they get along better socially -
they are more enjoyable to work with.
<imbri> yeah, i'll dig em up and talk to michelle (the person that
tells me what i can and cannot say)
<Sam> I guess some big corporations are aware of this, and try to play with this
<Tony> I worked for a pharmaceutical co in the 80's did some ARG-ish
things at conferences -  but never "documented the results" as it was
"team building"
<LibertyMcGeo> The military certainly knows the power of game playing.
They are seriously invested in it, excuse my pun.
<Sam> Microsoft runs a big internal treasure hunt annually
<imbri> yeah, it's kinda funny how different companies approach
various figures - what they want/need to know to prove ROI
<LibertyMcGeo> I know a colonel who's exclusive job is to run training games.
<imbri> and, yes, the military is definitely interested in games
<imbri> (they kinda keep the roof over my head)
<LibertyMcGeo> lol
<imbri> and not just us
<Tony> bomb proof?
<LibertyMcGeo> They do have a deep pocket.
<imbri> air force special ops was recruitment for the NZ air force, for example
<imbri> (really the only public example i have, personally)
<imbri> 8000 players (i think) - small, but for a country with a
population smaller than metro atlanta, pretty darned impressive
<imbri> met their recruitment goals :)
<Tony> congrats
<LibertyMcGeo> air force special ops - is that a game?
<imbri> yeah
<LibertyMcGeo> Ah - don't know that one.
<LibertyMcGeo> What kind?
<imbri> http://airforcespecialops.co.nz/index.html
<Sam> Flight simulator?
<LibertyMcGeo> Online - interesting.
<imbri> no, a puzzle for each of 24 (?) trades in the air force
<Sam> oh, I see
<LibertyMcGeo> So it's an aptitude test of sorts . . .
<imbri> as well as some geocaching and fun little challenges (building
the largest paper airplane you can)
<imbri> and solving each of the puzzles would get you information on the trade
<imbri> and if you got stuck, you'd get a video by someone actually
working in the trade to help you out
<Sam> Maybe I Love Bees was a rectruitment program for CIA
<imbri> you'd get little rubber bracelet thingers for completing
various bits and pieces
<imbri> so if you found one of the geocaches first, you'd get a gold bracelet
<LibertyMcGeo> And if you failed they didn't want you lol
<imbri> person with the most points at the end got a helicopter flyover over NZ
<imbri> and! got to do a tandem jump out of it
<LibertyMcGeo> Nice
<JohnEvans> Cool. :)
<imbri> and there was a little story bit (hunting down a parachutist
as part of a training thing)
<LibertyMcGeo> You worked on this imbri?
<imbri> i consulted on the game design for it
<imbri> i didn't work on it while it was live
<LibertyMcGeo> Cool.
<LibertyMcGeo> This is very nicely done :)
<labfly> back from walking my dog :) very cool, imbri - games are such
a seductive tool
*Rhiannon* The time is now 19:30.
<imbri> yeah, the guys at the agency behind it are very creative and fun
<LibertyMcGeo> and productive, no doubt :)
<LibertyMcGeo> Time for me to go. I have work to do. It's been nice
getting to know all of you :)
<JohnEvans> Take care!
<Sam> ok, bye Liberty!
<imbri> yeah, have a good evening :)
<labfly> bye, Liberty
<imbri> i should be heading off as well
<LibertyMcGeo> Night!
*** Signoff: LibertyMcGeo (Quit: )
<Sam> have you guys addressed the big AAA question?
<Tony> bye Imbri -
<Tony> AAA?
<Sam> Are ARGs Art?
<Sam> :)
<imbri> see ya, tony
<imbri> and yes, they're art :))
<labfly> oh my
<labfly> bye, imbri
<Tony> the heavy-ness of the art quest
<Sam> bye Brooke
<Sam> Yes
*** Signoff: Morbus (Quit: http://disobey.com/)
<gogogic> Im gone as well
<Tony> someone once said
<gogogic> good night
<Tony> Art's a guy's name
<Sam> goodnight Gogogic
<labfly> the triple A question is clearing the room ;)
<Tony> goodnight Gogogic
<Sam> hahaha
<Sam> sorry....
*** gogogic has left channel #arg_sig
<Rhiannon> Hah
<Sam> It always happens to me at partys
<Rhiannon> I think just about any method one human being uses to
express (noun) to another is or can be art
<Tony> there is ALWAYS a beginning, middle and end
<Rhiannon> William carlos Williams and his plums :)
<JohnEvans> That's pretty much the definition I use. :)
<labfly> and some is good art and some not so
<labfly> of course, what is good is totally eye of the beholder stuff
<Rhiannon> Well, I'm not sure i buy into the ibjective goodness of art, either
<Sam> Yes, in fact I think it's a bit pointless to debate whether
something is art or not
<Tony> I think art is a state of expression not a method
<Tony> method is craft
<Tony> that is a whole other SIG though
<JohnEvans> Well, I think I'll be leaving too. Take care all!
<Sam> see you John
<Tony> Good bye John
<labfly> bye, John
<JohnEvans> Goodnight! :)
*** Signoff: JohnEvans (Quit: Hey, what does this button d)
<Tony> and then there were 3 - time to go - thank you Rhiannon for facilitating
<Sam> was all this IN-game?  :)
<Tony> let me know about the press kit - or information kit for this
SIG and how I may assist
<labfly> yeah, thank you, Rhiannon - i'm off too  bye, everybody and
let me know how i can help with press kit
<Tony> night
*** Tony has left channel #arg_sig
<Sam> bye labfly
<Sam> Ok, so...that was it