[TCM] kawasaki's

[ZSandell]

Al,

thank you kindly 
this gives me a lot to think about

zoe
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Al Stone" <alstone at beyondwellbeing.com>
To: <tcm-students at gancao.net>
Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 4:54 PM
Subject: Re: [TCM] kawasaki's


> 
> On Nov 30, 2004, at 1:27 PM, ZSandell wrote:
> 
> > Al,
> >
> > True, I understand that it is "meaningless" - because TCM is a complete
> > system on its own- however, much study has been done comaring and 
> > describing
> > 'western' diseases in TCM such as asthma, hypertension, diabetes, 
> > migraines,
> > hyperthyroidism etc. . .
> > i am interested because i am a tcm student and it is my 5 month old 
> > daughter
> 
> Hi Zoe,
> 
> Perhaps it isn't meaningless, but if you really want advice on how to 
> treat something, we still need to get a sense of symptoms. The name of 
> the western disease really doesn't guide anybody's treatments.  Here's 
> a good example: I'm treating a patient who complains of hot flashes. 
> She is in her late 70's. Most would do a knee jerk prescription of Zhi 
> Bai Di Huang Wan which is a formula for Yin deficiency with signs of 
> deficiency heat.  So, we could ask "what formula do you use for 
> menopausal syndrome?" and the first answer would be Zhi Bai Di Huang 
> Wan. In many cases, that's not a bad guess really, but in her case it 
> was. She had no symptoms of Yin deficiency, but rather had blood level 
> heat and damp heat in the liver, and so I gave her Long Dan Xie Gan 
> Tang and she is seeing some improvement. Zhi Bai Di Huang Wan was used 
> before I treated her and it did nothing for her.
> 
> Your daugther's issue is no different, we have to treat according to 
> the presentation, not  the western diagnosis. Now, as you mentioned, 
> even within symptoms such as asthma, hypertension, etc. there are many 
> syndrome differentiations. That's why I first looked to the Flaws text, 
> but it wasn't in there and wanted to remind you that it doesn't really 
> matter. We need to treat the syndrome that presents. With that in mind, 
> let's take a look at your observations:
> 
> > The main symptoms are:
> > strawberry, prickly) tongue ), very little coating
> 
> Okay, so we see some heat. Because it is presumably the entire tongue 
> we'll want to look to the Heart, Spleen or Stomach as the origin of the 
> heat.
> 
> > rash
> 
> Probably heat, especially if it is red in color. If it has an exudate 
> or "weeps" when scratched, it is damp-heat.
> 
> > red eyes without discharge
> 
> Heat in the Liver or Lungs.
> 
> > prolonged high fever
> 
> Heat somewhere, lungs or stomach or blood.
> 
> > swelling of the extremeties, specifically hands and feet- edema
> 
> Dampness I guess.
> 
> > swollen lymph nodes
> 
> Heat toxin, though some might propose that these are phlegm nodules.
> 
> > occurs mostly in children under age 5
> 
> There are some syndromes that are somewhat unique to children such as 
> Spleen heat. This may qualify as such.
> 
> > cracked, bleeding dark red lips
> 
> Spleen or stomach heat.
> 
> > I also noted extreme restlessness,
> 
> heat in the heart (could be coming from just about anywhere, though)
> 
> > easily being startled,
> 
> this is usually associated with GB Qi deficiency, but in the case of an 
> infant, I'm not so sure.
> 
> >  vomiting stomach
> 
> Any problem with the stomach. You might want to look for a strong odor 
> and yellow color which implies heat, while clear or white says cold 
> and/or dampness.
> 
> > pain and gas bloating
> 
> pain could be just about anything at this point. gas and bloating could 
> range from dampness to stagnation to heat.
> 
> > my feeling is that it is extreme heat affecting the heart-
> 
> Extreme heat? Perhaps you mean "excess" or "repletion" heat?  Extreme 
> is for wrestlers. : )
> 
> >  i thought this
> > even before i went to the hsopital with my daughter adn it turns out 
> > that
> > the disorder in western medicine is an inflammation of the blood 
> > vessels
> > that without immunoglobulin and anti-coalgilation of the platelet 
> > treatment
> > may cause myocardial infarction and giant coronary aneurisms
> 
> You can kind of factor some of these items into the mix.I don't like to 
> say that all excessive coagulation is blood stagnation because it could 
> easily be phlegm stagnation. But let's see how this looks...
> 
> inflammation clearly indicates heat, but that's all we know at this 
> point.
> 
> I'm a bit confounded about the platelet issue, so there's too many 
> platelets?  I guess that's what you're saying. That smacks of blood 
> stagnation, but again it could be phlegm mixed in there as well.
> 
> > academically, i guess i am wondering what kind of tcm formulas may 
> > have been
> > used-
> 
> I think that I'd look at blood moving and blood heat removing formulas. 
> The herbs Mu Dan Pi, Chi Shao, Dan Shen and others come to mind.
> 
> Given the child's age, I would be slow to just throw herbs at her, but 
> as you said, looking at this academically, we can look into the 
> following formulas:
> 
> Xie Huang San is that formula for Spleen heat. One unique indication 
> for this formula is thrusting out of the tongue. Perhaps adding mu dan 
> pi, chi shao, and dan shen would make sense to reach down into the 
> blood level for the heat and stagnation there.  Also adding Zhi Zi too 
> cool the liver to cool the blood and dan dou chi to address the 
> restlessness with the zhi zi.
> 
> That's where I'd at least start out on an academic level.
> 
> Hope that helps and sorry to hear about your daughter. : (
> 
> -al.
> 
> > please let me know what you think
> > zoe
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Al Stone" <alstone at beyondwellbeing.com>
> > To: <tcm-students at gancao.net>
> > Sent: Monday, November 29, 2004 9:03 PM
> > Subject: Re: [TCM] kawasaki's
> >
> >
> > On Nov 29, 2004, at 8:33 PM, ZSandell wrote:
> >
> >> has anyone ever seen any research on kawasaki's disease and chinese
> >> medicine treatment/ tcm diagnosis?
> >>
> >> thanks,
> >> zoe sandell
> >
> > Kawasaki, Suzuki, Honda. All of these things show up as TCM patterns.
> >
> > Bob Flaws' book called The Treatment of Modern Medical Diseases with
> > Chinese Medicine doesn't specifically include this pathology, but as
> > usual, you'll start out with the tongue and the pulse and pretty much
> > ignore the western diagnosis. It is meaningless for what we do.
> >
> > --
> > Al Stone, L.Ac.
> >
> > You can build a throne with bayonets, but you can't sit on it for long.
> > -Boris Yeltsin
> >
> >
> >
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> 
> 
>