yiddishtangofever at shaw.ca
Wed Dec 1 14:38:14 EST 2004
thank you kindly
this gives me a lot to think about
----- Original Message -----
From: "Al Stone" <alstone at beyondwellbeing.com>
To: <tcm-students at gancao.net>
Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2004 4:54 PM
Subject: Re: [TCM] kawasaki's
> On Nov 30, 2004, at 1:27 PM, ZSandell wrote:
> > Al,
> > True, I understand that it is "meaningless" - because TCM is a complete
> > system on its own- however, much study has been done comaring and
> > describing
> > 'western' diseases in TCM such as asthma, hypertension, diabetes,
> > migraines,
> > hyperthyroidism etc. . .
> > i am interested because i am a tcm student and it is my 5 month old
> > daughter
> Hi Zoe,
> Perhaps it isn't meaningless, but if you really want advice on how to
> treat something, we still need to get a sense of symptoms. The name of
> the western disease really doesn't guide anybody's treatments. Here's
> a good example: I'm treating a patient who complains of hot flashes.
> She is in her late 70's. Most would do a knee jerk prescription of Zhi
> Bai Di Huang Wan which is a formula for Yin deficiency with signs of
> deficiency heat. So, we could ask "what formula do you use for
> menopausal syndrome?" and the first answer would be Zhi Bai Di Huang
> Wan. In many cases, that's not a bad guess really, but in her case it
> was. She had no symptoms of Yin deficiency, but rather had blood level
> heat and damp heat in the liver, and so I gave her Long Dan Xie Gan
> Tang and she is seeing some improvement. Zhi Bai Di Huang Wan was used
> before I treated her and it did nothing for her.
> Your daugther's issue is no different, we have to treat according to
> the presentation, not the western diagnosis. Now, as you mentioned,
> even within symptoms such as asthma, hypertension, etc. there are many
> syndrome differentiations. That's why I first looked to the Flaws text,
> but it wasn't in there and wanted to remind you that it doesn't really
> matter. We need to treat the syndrome that presents. With that in mind,
> let's take a look at your observations:
> > The main symptoms are:
> > strawberry, prickly) tongue ), very little coating
> Okay, so we see some heat. Because it is presumably the entire tongue
> we'll want to look to the Heart, Spleen or Stomach as the origin of the
> > rash
> Probably heat, especially if it is red in color. If it has an exudate
> or "weeps" when scratched, it is damp-heat.
> > red eyes without discharge
> Heat in the Liver or Lungs.
> > prolonged high fever
> Heat somewhere, lungs or stomach or blood.
> > swelling of the extremeties, specifically hands and feet- edema
> Dampness I guess.
> > swollen lymph nodes
> Heat toxin, though some might propose that these are phlegm nodules.
> > occurs mostly in children under age 5
> There are some syndromes that are somewhat unique to children such as
> Spleen heat. This may qualify as such.
> > cracked, bleeding dark red lips
> Spleen or stomach heat.
> > I also noted extreme restlessness,
> heat in the heart (could be coming from just about anywhere, though)
> > easily being startled,
> this is usually associated with GB Qi deficiency, but in the case of an
> infant, I'm not so sure.
> > vomiting stomach
> Any problem with the stomach. You might want to look for a strong odor
> and yellow color which implies heat, while clear or white says cold
> and/or dampness.
> > pain and gas bloating
> pain could be just about anything at this point. gas and bloating could
> range from dampness to stagnation to heat.
> > my feeling is that it is extreme heat affecting the heart-
> Extreme heat? Perhaps you mean "excess" or "repletion" heat? Extreme
> is for wrestlers. : )
> > i thought this
> > even before i went to the hsopital with my daughter adn it turns out
> > that
> > the disorder in western medicine is an inflammation of the blood
> > vessels
> > that without immunoglobulin and anti-coalgilation of the platelet
> > treatment
> > may cause myocardial infarction and giant coronary aneurisms
> You can kind of factor some of these items into the mix.I don't like to
> say that all excessive coagulation is blood stagnation because it could
> easily be phlegm stagnation. But let's see how this looks...
> inflammation clearly indicates heat, but that's all we know at this
> I'm a bit confounded about the platelet issue, so there's too many
> platelets? I guess that's what you're saying. That smacks of blood
> stagnation, but again it could be phlegm mixed in there as well.
> > academically, i guess i am wondering what kind of tcm formulas may
> > have been
> > used-
> I think that I'd look at blood moving and blood heat removing formulas.
> The herbs Mu Dan Pi, Chi Shao, Dan Shen and others come to mind.
> Given the child's age, I would be slow to just throw herbs at her, but
> as you said, looking at this academically, we can look into the
> following formulas:
> Xie Huang San is that formula for Spleen heat. One unique indication
> for this formula is thrusting out of the tongue. Perhaps adding mu dan
> pi, chi shao, and dan shen would make sense to reach down into the
> blood level for the heat and stagnation there. Also adding Zhi Zi too
> cool the liver to cool the blood and dan dou chi to address the
> restlessness with the zhi zi.
> That's where I'd at least start out on an academic level.
> Hope that helps and sorry to hear about your daughter. : (
> > please let me know what you think
> > zoe
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Al Stone" <alstone at beyondwellbeing.com>
> > To: <tcm-students at gancao.net>
> > Sent: Monday, November 29, 2004 9:03 PM
> > Subject: Re: [TCM] kawasaki's
> > On Nov 29, 2004, at 8:33 PM, ZSandell wrote:
> >> has anyone ever seen any research on kawasaki's disease and chinese
> >> medicine treatment/ tcm diagnosis?
> >> thanks,
> >> zoe sandell
> > Kawasaki, Suzuki, Honda. All of these things show up as TCM patterns.
> > Bob Flaws' book called The Treatment of Modern Medical Diseases with
> > Chinese Medicine doesn't specifically include this pathology, but as
> > usual, you'll start out with the tongue and the pulse and pretty much
> > ignore the western diagnosis. It is meaningless for what we do.
> > --
> > Al Stone, L.Ac.
> > You can build a throne with bayonets, but you can't sit on it for long.
> > -Boris Yeltsin
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