From kmac at primus.com.au Sun Dec 1 19:29:26 2002 From: kmac at primus.com.au (Karl MacPherson) Date: Tue Jun 22 08:08:59 2004 Subject: [Herb-students] RE: Need input on this case Message-ID: <000801c29999$df5c2840$68db32d2@b2o8x1> This is my first patient, I am third year herb student. Her tongue and pulse do not reflect her symptoms. She is an asthmatic - for approx 8yrs. Her main complaint is she recently stopped taking her medication flexitide. For three months now little red lumps have appeared all over her face. Initially they were itchy however that has stopped now she is on anti-inflammatory cream. The dots are still slightly red and are under the skin. She has no phelgm and no dry throat, no SOB or tight chest she drinks about 1 litre per day of water B/M - once day and formed Urination- 8-9 times a day Sleep - sleeps well, does not wake up at night sweat- doesn't really sweet that much appetite- big appetite, eats alot constantly, is always hungry She tends to feel the cold very easily Tongue - red all over, with a red patch in the kidney area, sl red dots raised, with a slight yellow coating in the kidney area. She has a verticle crack down the middle of spleen and stomach area. Her tongue is short and flabby and is moist. Her lung area has some red dots. P- Overall her left side was very hard to find- very deep, faint and slightly slippery overall it was very weak. Her right side was wiry. With this diagnosis flexitide can suppress lung heat, because she has stopped taking it prehaps the suppressed heat from the lung has risen upwards, Lungs associated with UJ. However her pulse was not rapid it was slow. What I am thinking is that there is exhisting stomach and lung heat, however overall she is yang Xu (Kidney). Due to her feeling the cold and the slow pulse. I would have expected her urine to be slightly yellow as this is reflected in the tongue. Do asthmatics ly have slow pulses? There is definetly damp present in the body. Can I please have your comments on what you think?? In regards to treatment principle if there is cold present in the body, however latent heat in the lungs and stomach the prescription has to be carefully prepared. What do you think?? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://five.pairlist.net/pipermail/tcm-students/attachments/20021202/8c1a2d40/attachment.htm From alstone at beyondwellbeing.com Mon Dec 2 19:50:17 2002 From: alstone at beyondwellbeing.com (Al Stone) Date: Tue Jun 22 08:08:59 2004 Subject: [Herb-students] RE: Need input on this case References: <000801c29999$df5c2840$68db32d2@b2o8x1> Message-ID: <3DEBFFCC.52C93F54@beyondwellbeing.com> > Karl MacPherson wrote: > > This is my first patient, I am third year herb student. > Her tongue and pulse do not reflect her symptoms. > > She is an asthmatic - for approx 8yrs. Her main complaint is she > recently stopped taking her medication flexitide. For three months > now little red lumps have appeared all over her face. Initially they > were itchy however that has stopped now she is on anti-inflammatory > cream. The dots are still slightly red and are under the skin. Okay, just to be clear. The cheif complaint is the dermatological issues, right? Let's start out there, consider all the possible diagnosis that could apply and then use the remaining information to make a diagnosis... Red means heat. Itchy means wind. Wind in the skin often arises in the wake of a Blood deficiency. That doesn't necessarily mean a systemic Liver Blood type deficiency, but more likely is a Blood deficiency only local to the location of the red spots. Probably the mechanism at play here is that there is some heat under the skin and this heat is damaging the blood in the immediate area, giving rise to the opportunity for wind to get lodged there and cause the itching. The anti-inflammatory cream is likely removing the heat in its own way and hence addressing the itchiness. Assuming that this is what is happening, we might use this information to recognize that the red spots are some sort of inflammation which generally implies heat. Let's check out the other signs and symptoms to see what's up. > appetite- big appetite, eats alot constantly, is always hungry Okay, this could be an issue of Stomach Fire, and that could potentially get into the Stomach channel, ascending to the face, specifically the jaw line. > She tends to feel the cold very easily Internal cold? Yang deficiency? Neither explain red spots on the face. > Tongue - red all over, with a red patch in the kidney area, sl red > dots raised, with a slight yellow coating in the kidney area. Okay, red means heat. The slightly yellow coating in the rear could be a lower jiao issue, or a stomach issue. > She has > a verticle crack down the middle of spleen and stomach area. Her > tongue is short and flabby and is moist. Her lung area has some red > dots. Lung heat could produce some red spots on the tongue too. Lungs rule the skin. > P- Overall her left side was very hard to find- very deep, faint and > slightly slippery overall it was very weak. Her right side was wiry. > > With this diagnosis flexitide can suppress lung heat, because she has > stopped taking it prehaps the suppressed heat from the lung has risen > upwards, Lungs associated with UJ. However her pulse was not rapid it > was slow. Is she an athlete? > What I am thinking is that there is exhisting stomach and > lung heat, however overall she is yang Xu (Kidney). Due to her feeling > the cold and the slow pulse. I would have expected her urine to be > slightly yellow as this is reflected in the tongue. Do asthmatics ly > have slow pulses? Sure, if they're Yang Xu. > There is definetly damp present in the body. Can I > please have your comments on what you think?? In regards to > treatment principle If there was damp poping out of these lesions, I'd expect to see some exudate, but I didn't hear about that. > if there is cold present in the body, however latent heat in the lungs > and stomach the prescription has to be carefully prepared. What do > you think?? I think you'll need to be careful, yes. I assume you have good supervisor. One thing you can do is simply give your patient whatever you think you should for the Lung and Stomach heat, but tell them what to look out for in case of damage to the Kidney Yang such as diarrhea or worsening sensitivity to the cold, in which case you can modify the formula or have them lower the dosage. Hope that helps. -al. -- Al Stone L.Ac. http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. From erpardo at mi.madritel.es Tue Dec 3 04:54:26 2002 From: erpardo at mi.madritel.es (Susan rod) Date: Tue Jun 22 08:08:59 2004 Subject: [Herb-students] RE: Need input on this case References: <000801c29999$df5c2840$68db32d2@b2o8x1> <3DEBFFCC.52C93F54@beyondwellbeing.com> Message-ID: <000a01c29ab1$f6ff4a90$ee3625d5@susan13aj2v086> Al: I'm a first-year TCM student .... just was interested to ask you why you thought to ask if the patient in question was an athlete ..... I could understand the rest of your reasonings (great chance to follow along the reasoning of someone who know the ropes) .... but could not relate the athlete aspect. Could you explain just a little bit. Thanks. Susan R. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Stone" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 1:50 AM Subject: Re: [Herb-students] RE: Need input on this case > > > > Karl MacPherson wrote: > > > > This is my first patient, I am third year herb student. > > Her tongue and pulse do not reflect her symptoms. > > > > She is an asthmatic - for approx 8yrs. Her main complaint is she > > recently stopped taking her medication flexitide. For three months > > now little red lumps have appeared all over her face. Initially they > > were itchy however that has stopped now she is on anti-inflammatory > > cream. The dots are still slightly red and are under the skin. > > Okay, just to be clear. The cheif complaint is the dermatological > issues, right? Let's start out there, consider all the possible > diagnosis that could apply and then use the remaining information to > make a diagnosis... > > Red means heat. Itchy means wind. Wind in the skin often arises in the > wake of a Blood deficiency. That doesn't necessarily mean a systemic > Liver Blood type deficiency, but more likely is a Blood deficiency only > local to the location of the red spots. Probably the mechanism at play > here is that there is some heat under the skin and this heat is damaging > the blood in the immediate area, giving rise to the opportunity for wind > to get lodged there and cause the itching. The anti-inflammatory cream > is likely removing the heat in its own way and hence addressing the itchiness. > > Assuming that this is what is happening, we might use this information > to recognize that the red spots are some sort of inflammation which > generally implies heat. Let's check out the other signs and symptoms to > see what's up. > > > appetite- big appetite, eats alot constantly, is always hungry > > Okay, this could be an issue of Stomach Fire, and that could potentially > get into the Stomach channel, ascending to the face, specifically the > jaw line. > > > She tends to feel the cold very easily > > Internal cold? Yang deficiency? Neither explain red spots on the face. > > > Tongue - red all over, with a red patch in the kidney area, sl red > > dots raised, with a slight yellow coating in the kidney area. > > Okay, red means heat. The slightly yellow coating in the rear could be > a lower jiao issue, or a stomach issue. > > > She has > > a verticle crack down the middle of spleen and stomach area. Her > > tongue is short and flabby and is moist. Her lung area has some red > > dots. > > Lung heat could produce some red spots on the tongue too. Lungs rule the skin. > > > P- Overall her left side was very hard to find- very deep, faint and > > slightly slippery overall it was very weak. Her right side was wiry. > > > > With this diagnosis flexitide can suppress lung heat, because she has > > stopped taking it prehaps the suppressed heat from the lung has risen > > upwards, Lungs associated with UJ. However her pulse was not rapid it > > was slow. > > Is she an athlete? > > > What I am thinking is that there is exhisting stomach and > > lung heat, however overall she is yang Xu (Kidney). Due to her feeling > > the cold and the slow pulse. I would have expected her urine to be > > slightly yellow as this is reflected in the tongue. Do asthmatics ly > > have slow pulses? > > Sure, if they're Yang Xu. > > > There is definetly damp present in the body. Can I > > please have your comments on what you think?? In regards to > > treatment principle > > If there was damp poping out of these lesions, I'd expect to see some > exudate, but I didn't hear about that. > > > if there is cold present in the body, however latent heat in the lungs > > and stomach the prescription has to be carefully prepared. What do > > you think?? > > I think you'll need to be careful, yes. I assume you have good > supervisor. > > One thing you can do is simply give your patient whatever you think you > should for the Lung and Stomach heat, but tell them what to look out for > in case of damage to the Kidney Yang such as diarrhea or worsening > sensitivity to the cold, in which case you can modify the formula or > have them lower the dosage. > > Hope that helps. > > -al. > > -- > Al Stone L.Ac. > > http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com > > Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. > > _______________________________________________ > New from Gancao.net: > Acublog: reinterpreting biomedical research through the eyes of traditional Chinese medicine. > http://gancao.net/weblogs/acublog.cgi > > > Herb-students mailing list > Herb-students@gancao.net > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/herb-students From KenRosenb at aol.com Tue Dec 3 00:32:50 2002 From: KenRosenb at aol.com (KenRosenb@aol.com) Date: Tue Jun 22 08:08:59 2004 Subject: [Herb-students] RE: Need input on this case Message-ID: First let me say that I am a student, meaning my clinic experience is almost nonexistent, However. In My TCM Internal Medicine class, Our teacher said that slight yellow fur on the tongue can actually happen with a lower jiao yang deficiency. The cold is deep in the lower jiao, forcing heat to go up to the lungs. I don't exactly understand the patho-mechanism, but I would be happy to ask my teacher any questions for you. Best of Luck, Ken -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://five.pairlist.net/pipermail/tcm-students/attachments/20021203/1766e7b9/attachment.htm From taiqi at taiqi.com Tue Dec 3 11:30:43 2002 From: taiqi at taiqi.com (douglas) Date: Tue Jun 22 08:08:59 2004 Subject: [Herb-students] skin References: <000801c29999$df5c2840$68db32d2@b2o8x1> <3DEBFFCC.52C93F54@beyondwellbeing.com> <000a01c29ab1$f6ff4a90$ee3625d5@susan13aj2v086> Message-ID: <3DECDC32.DF350491@taiqi.com> > I'll take a stab at this. I assume that Al asks about the athlete part because they often have slow pulses. > but could not relate the > athlete aspect. Could you explain just a little bit. Thanks. Susan R. > >From what I see of the discussion, one has to be careful to distinquish the skin condition from the overall condition. Although not exactly two seperate things a treatment plan can address heat in the skin with cool herbs while being careful of not over doing it and making the overall condition colder. Although wind has to have a component of deficiency (think of Qi as a wall, wind can only enter where there are holes in it), I would emphasize her condition as heat in the blood rather than stressing the blood deficiency. I also don't (to the horror of my collegues) see itchiness as defining wind but rather the issue of whether it moves around the body or not. In this case we are getting lumps in the same place which suggests dampness as opposed to the blood deficiency. I believe (and can't back it up by a book) that the itchiness is in this case the element of toxicity in the blood. Flexitide (see below for the generic drug) is a corticosteroid. Especially if she was using it as a spray, it may have been acting to knock down the acne/skin condition that she would "normally" have. The questions I would have is how much pus is involved under the redness (amount of dampness) and if yellow or not, how are her bowel movements?, which can aggrevate the skin if constipated and finally and most importantly what kind of food is she eating? Hot spicy are not good obviously in this case. I'm going to make a guess at a formula (for entertainment purposes only): Ju Hua, Jin Yin Hua, Lian Qiao, Zi Cao, Zi Hua di Ding, Shi Hu, Bai Zhu, Fu Ling Pi, Chi Shao, Ku Shen, Yi Yi Ren, Dang Gui, Bai Shao and Gan Cao. As you see it has the elements of blood that Al was defining while also herbs for the exterior (but not really wind herbs per se). The other questions I have are about her period and if the skin changes with it and if she is on the pill. doug Fluticasone propionate is a synthetic corticosteroid with the chemical name of S-fluoromethyl 6a,9a-difluoro-11b-hydroxy-16a-methyl-3-oxo-17a-propionyloxyandrosta -1, 4-diene-17b-carbothioate. Fluticasone propionate nasal spray 50 mg is an aqueous suspension of microfine fluticasone propionate for topical administration to the nasal mucosa by means of a metering, atomizing spray pump. Flonase nasal spray also contains microcrystalline cellulose and carboxymethylcellulose sodium, dextrose, 0.02% w/w benzalkonium chloride, polysorbate 80, and 0.25% w/w phenylethyl alcohol, and has a pH between 5 and 7. > > > > She is an asthmatic - for approx 8yrs. Her main complaint is she > > > recently stopped taking her medication flexitide. For three months > > > now little red lumps have appeared all over her face. Initially they > > > were itchy however that has stopped now she is on anti-inflammatory > > > cream. The dots are still slightly red and are under the skin. > > > > Red means heat. Itchy means wind. Wind in the skin often arises in the > > wake of a Blood deficiency. > > > > > > > She tends to feel the cold very easily > > > > Internal cold? Yang deficiency? Neither explain red spots on the face. > > > > > She has > > > a verticle crack down the middle of spleen and stomach area. Her > > > tongue is short and flabby and is moist. Her lung area has some red > > > dots. > > > > Lung heat could produce some red spots on the tongue too. Lungs rule the > skin. > > > > > Sure, if they're Yang Xu. > > > > > From alstone at beyondwellbeing.com Tue Dec 3 13:07:09 2002 From: alstone at beyondwellbeing.com (Al Stone) Date: Tue Jun 22 08:08:59 2004 Subject: [Herb-students] RE: Need input on this case References: Message-ID: <3DECF2CC.8B7DCD62@beyondwellbeing.com> >>> First let me say that I am a student, meaning my clinic experience is almost nonexistent, However. In My TCM Internal Medicine class, Our teacher said that slight yellow fur on the tongue can actually happen with a lower jiao yang deficiency. The cold is deep in the lower jiao, forcing heat to go up to the lungs. I don't exactly understand the patho-mechanism, but I would be happy to ask my teacher any questions for you. Best of Luck, Ken<<< You know, that yellow coating in the rear of the tongue, I practically ignore it at times. I find that it is common and can indicate a little gunk in the Large Intestine too. It doesn't always have to indicate a really weird pathology. Another diagnostic paradigm says that the rear of the tongue pertains to the lower third of the stomach too. Something to think about there too especially in regards to this dermatology case. -- Al Stone L.Ac. http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. From alstone at beyondwellbeing.com Tue Dec 3 13:13:21 2002 From: alstone at beyondwellbeing.com (Al Stone) Date: Tue Jun 22 08:08:59 2004 Subject: [Herb-students] RE: Need input on this case References: <000801c29999$df5c2840$68db32d2@b2o8x1> <3DEBFFCC.52C93F54@beyondwellbeing.com> <000a01c29ab1$f6ff4a90$ee3625d5@susan13aj2v086> Message-ID: <3DECF441.58D8B61@beyondwellbeing.com> Athletes, or persons who work out a lot tend to have really healthy hearts with a very efficient cardiac output, and so the heart doesn't have to beat as quickly. So, people in very good physical condition can develop a slow pulse. In such a case it would not indicate a pathology. This pulse is sometimes called the "athletic pulse". -al. Susan rod wrote: > > Al: I'm a first-year TCM student .... just was interested to ask you why you > thought to ask if the patient in question was an athlete ..... I could > understand the rest of your reasonings (great chance to follow along the > reasoning of someone who know the ropes) .... but could not relate the > athlete aspect. Could you explain just a little bit. Thanks. Susan R. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Al Stone" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 1:50 AM > Subject: Re: [Herb-students] RE: Need input on this case > > > > > > > > Karl MacPherson wrote: > > > > > > This is my first patient, I am third year herb student. > > > Her tongue and pulse do not reflect her symptoms. > > > > > > She is an asthmatic - for approx 8yrs. Her main complaint is she > > > recently stopped taking her medication flexitide. For three months > > > now little red lumps have appeared all over her face. Initially they > > > were itchy however that has stopped now she is on anti-inflammatory > > > cream. The dots are still slightly red and are under the skin. > > > > Okay, just to be clear. The cheif complaint is the dermatological > > issues, right? Let's start out there, consider all the possible > > diagnosis that could apply and then use the remaining information to > > make a diagnosis... > > > > Red means heat. Itchy means wind. Wind in the skin often arises in the > > wake of a Blood deficiency. That doesn't necessarily mean a systemic > > Liver Blood type deficiency, but more likely is a Blood deficiency only > > local to the location of the red spots. Probably the mechanism at play > > here is that there is some heat under the skin and this heat is damaging > > the blood in the immediate area, giving rise to the opportunity for wind > > to get lodged there and cause the itching. The anti-inflammatory cream > > is likely removing the heat in its own way and hence addressing the > itchiness. > > > > Assuming that this is what is happening, we might use this information > > to recognize that the red spots are some sort of inflammation which > > generally implies heat. Let's check out the other signs and symptoms to > > see what's up. > > > > > appetite- big appetite, eats alot constantly, is always hungry > > > > Okay, this could be an issue of Stomach Fire, and that could potentially > > get into the Stomach channel, ascending to the face, specifically the > > jaw line. > > > > > She tends to feel the cold very easily > > > > Internal cold? Yang deficiency? Neither explain red spots on the face. > > > > > Tongue - red all over, with a red patch in the kidney area, sl red > > > dots raised, with a slight yellow coating in the kidney area. > > > > Okay, red means heat. The slightly yellow coating in the rear could be > > a lower jiao issue, or a stomach issue. > > > > > She has > > > a verticle crack down the middle of spleen and stomach area. Her > > > tongue is short and flabby and is moist. Her lung area has some red > > > dots. > > > > Lung heat could produce some red spots on the tongue too. Lungs rule the > skin. > > > > > P- Overall her left side was very hard to find- very deep, faint and > > > slightly slippery overall it was very weak. Her right side was wiry. > > > > > > With this diagnosis flexitide can suppress lung heat, because she has > > > stopped taking it prehaps the suppressed heat from the lung has risen > > > upwards, Lungs associated with UJ. However her pulse was not rapid it > > > was slow. > > > > Is she an athlete? > > > > > What I am thinking is that there is exhisting stomach and > > > lung heat, however overall she is yang Xu (Kidney). Due to her feeling > > > the cold and the slow pulse. I would have expected her urine to be > > > slightly yellow as this is reflected in the tongue. Do asthmatics ly > > > have slow pulses? > > > > Sure, if they're Yang Xu. > > > > > There is definetly damp present in the body. Can I > > > please have your comments on what you think?? In regards to > > > treatment principle > > > > If there was damp poping out of these lesions, I'd expect to see some > > exudate, but I didn't hear about that. > > > > > if there is cold present in the body, however latent heat in the lungs > > > and stomach the prescription has to be carefully prepared. What do > > > you think?? > > > > I think you'll need to be careful, yes. I assume you have good > > supervisor. > > > > One thing you can do is simply give your patient whatever you think you > > should for the Lung and Stomach heat, but tell them what to look out for > > in case of damage to the Kidney Yang such as diarrhea or worsening > > sensitivity to the cold, in which case you can modify the formula or > > have them lower the dosage. > > > > Hope that helps. > > > > -al. > > > > -- > > Al Stone L.Ac. > > > > http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com > > > > Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New from Gancao.net: > > Acublog: reinterpreting biomedical research through the eyes of > traditional Chinese medicine. > > http://gancao.net/weblogs/acublog.cgi > > > > > > Herb-students mailing list > > Herb-students@gancao.net > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/herb-students > > _______________________________________________ > New from Gancao.net: > Acublog: reinterpreting biomedical research through the eyes of traditional Chinese medicine. > http://gancao.net/weblogs/acublog.cgi > > Herb-students mailing list > Herb-students@gancao.net > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/herb-students -- Al Stone L.Ac. http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. From alstone at beyondwellbeing.com Tue Dec 3 13:32:31 2002 From: alstone at beyondwellbeing.com (Al Stone) Date: Tue Jun 22 08:08:59 2004 Subject: [Herb-students] skin References: <000801c29999$df5c2840$68db32d2@b2o8x1> <3DEBFFCC.52C93F54@beyondwellbeing.com> <000a01c29ab1$f6ff4a90$ee3625d5@susan13aj2v086> <3DECDC32.DF350491@taiqi.com> Message-ID: <3DECF8BE.BEB88DB2@beyondwellbeing.com> douglas wrote: > I believe (and can't back it up by a book) that the itchiness is in this case the element of > toxicity in the blood. I'm cool with blood heat or heat toxin, but the itchiness is due to the heat damaging the blood in the *local area only*. The heat damages the blood in the centemeter surrounding the lesion only. This was a pathomechanism presented by Dr. Gu at Emperor's college who specialized in dermatology in China, but unfortunately not the English language. ; ) -- Al Stone L.Ac. http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. From metaphyzik at iprimus.com.au Tue Dec 3 16:58:52 2002 From: metaphyzik at iprimus.com.au (bec) Date: Tue Jun 22 08:08:59 2004 Subject: [Herb-students] herb-drug interactions Message-ID: <3DED291C.3020406@iprimus.com.au> Hi folks. I have a patient who has been taking anti-depressants for most of her adult life. She is 42 years old and is currently taking Effexor (an SSRI), Sotocor (a beta-blocker for heart palpitations), Valium (to get to sleep and to relax), and Dexamphetamine (for Bi-polar disorder). She has many symptoms that imply she has Yin deficiency (night sweats, dry mouth, dry, itchy skin & scalp, dark yellow scanty urine) and her GP has just given her intravenous iron supplements because she was anaemic. The anaemia has happened before, a year ago but recurred about a month ago. (this implies Blood deficiency, no?) She has been allergic to bananas since she was a child but eats one every morning. They used to make her break out in "hives" (itchy lumps). She has had huge problems with itchy skin. Sores that began as pimples appear on her hands, forearms, feet and lower legs, and also on her stomach. She scratches the sores and they break open and eventually heal but leave dark purple scars. Her scalp developed scabby patches along the Du Mai up to Bai Hui but mostly at the top of her spine. These were extremely itchy and most prominent about a year ago, just before she stopped taking dexamphetamine. She has recently (3 weeks ago) begun taking it again and the scabs have reappeared, although this time they are not itchy. I would like to give her a blood-heat clearing formula such as Wu Wei Xiao Dui Yin, and perhaps later on concentrate on nourishing Yin and clearing organ heat. I was wondering if anyone had any knowledge of this formula in relation to Western pharmaceuticals - that is, how it is likely to react. I know that beta-blockers are difficult drugs to work with and also that half the problems she is having are related to the drugs. The only problem is that she doesn't seem to think she can function without the dexamphetamine, and the beta-blockers stop her having heart murmurs which have happened several times over the past year. any help would be appreciated. bec From ricardo_javier at hotmail.com Wed Dec 4 11:17:35 2002 From: ricardo_javier at hotmail.com (Ricardo Ramírez) Date: Tue Jun 22 08:08:59 2004 Subject: [Herb-students] Re: Herb-students digest, Vol 1 #38 - 4 msgs Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://five.pairlist.net/pipermail/tcm-students/attachments/20021204/a9e3d551/attachment.htm From taiqi at taiqi.com Tue Dec 3 19:20:57 2002 From: taiqi at taiqi.com (douglas) Date: Tue Jun 22 08:08:59 2004 Subject: [Herb-students] skin References: <000801c29999$df5c2840$68db32d2@b2o8x1> <3DEBFFCC.52C93F54@beyondwellbeing.com> <000a01c29ab1$f6ff4a90$ee3625d5@susan13aj2v086> <3DECDC32.DF350491@taiqi.com> <3DECF8BE.BEB88DB2@beyondwellbeing.com> Message-ID: <3DED4A68.CE363565@taiqi.com> I think that's an important distinction you've made, translated verbatim obviously from dear Old Doctor Gu. ;-) The reason I shy away from wind as a global diagnosis is that giving wind scattering herbs might also scatter the disease all over the body. doug Al Stone wrote: > douglas wrote: > > > I believe (and can't back it up by a book) that the itchiness is in this case the element of > > toxicity in the blood. > > I'm cool with blood heat or heat toxin, but the itchiness is due to the > heat damaging the blood in the *local area only*. The heat damages the > blood in the centemeter surrounding the lesion only. This was a > pathomechanism presented by Dr. Gu at Emperor's college who specialized > in dermatology in China, but unfortunately not the English language. ; ) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://five.pairlist.net/pipermail/tcm-students/attachments/20021203/2200ce53/attachment.htm From phiangel at ihug.co.nz Wed Dec 4 22:23:36 2002 From: phiangel at ihug.co.nz (phiangel) Date: Tue Jun 22 08:08:59 2004 Subject: [Herb-students] slow pulse = "healthy" heart?? References: <20021204162014.55840536DE@pairlist.net> Message-ID: <3DEEC6B8.48255D3C@ihug.co.nz> > I agree with you Al re: a slow pulse can be an "athletic pulse", however i have a suspiscion that there may be underlying pathlogy within this.... An "Athletic Heart" after all is carrying a large amount of scar tissue, and eventhough the heart appears to be operating more efficently (ie: increased cardiac output....), there are many questions i have regarding this being "healthy" eg: personal observation of "athletes" being obsessive or emotionally agitated (shen disturbance via heart pathology), either being "all go" or "flat" (ie: yang qi depletion)....etc Also, I remember a chinese saying (or something) about how we have only a fixed number of heart beats and t/f overly strenuous exercise is not recommended b/c the heartbeats get used up.... this may explain why the pulse is slow too? (yang depletion?) Anyway that idea lead me to think more about the heartbeat and then i discovered alot of supposedly very fit (healthy?) athletes ended up dying or suffering from heart pathologies.... (from a Western Medical Science perspective) makes me reassess what i thought was "good" for me re: exercise.... and if a "healthy" heart does in fact beat slowly....? to a degree, i think not.... brendon > > From: Al Stone > Reply-To: herb-students@gancao.net > > Athletes, or persons who work out a lot tend to have really healthy > hearts with a very efficient cardiac output, and so the heart doesn't > have to beat as quickly. So, people in very good physical condition > can develop a slow pulse. In such a case it would not indicate a > pathology. > > This pulse is sometimes called the "athletic pulse". > > -al. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://five.pairlist.net/pipermail/tcm-students/attachments/20021205/c9dd0152/attachment.htm From alstone at beyondwellbeing.com Thu Dec 5 13:12:44 2002 From: alstone at beyondwellbeing.com (Al Stone) Date: Tue Jun 22 08:08:59 2004 Subject: [Herb-students] skin References: <000801c29999$df5c2840$68db32d2@b2o8x1> <3DEBFFCC.52C93F54@beyondwellbeing.com> <000a01c29ab1$f6ff4a90$ee3625d5@susan13aj2v086> <3DECDC32.DF350491@taiqi.com> <3DECF8BE.BEB88DB2@beyondwellbeing.com> <3DED4A68.CE363565@taiqi.com> Message-ID: <3DEF971B.25BEBB50@beyondwellbeing.com> Yeah, I would think that the treatment principle is not so much to expel wind but to address either blood level heat or heat toxin. Besides, there is a saying in TCM. "to treat wind, you must treat the blood". In this case, wind would mean skin level wind, as opposed to wind-heat or wind-cold in the lungs. -al. douglas wrote: > > I think that's an important distinction you've made, translated > verbatim obviously from dear Old Doctor Gu. ;-) > The reason I shy away from wind as a global diagnosis is that giving > wind scattering herbs might also scatter the disease all over the > body. > doug > > Al Stone wrote: > > > douglas wrote: > > > > > I believe (and can't back it up by a book) that the itchiness is > > in this case the element of > > > toxicity in the blood. > > > > I'm cool with blood heat or heat toxin, but the itchiness is due to > > the > > heat damaging the blood in the *local area only*. The heat damages > > the > > blood in the centemeter surrounding the lesion only. This was a > > pathomechanism presented by Dr. Gu at Emperor's college who > > specialized > > in dermatology in China, but unfortunately not the English language. > > ; ) > > -- Al Stone L.Ac. http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. From amandawaaldyk147 at hotmail.com Fri Dec 6 05:29:55 2002 From: amandawaaldyk147 at hotmail.com (mans .) Date: Tue Jun 22 08:08:59 2004 Subject: [Herb-students] Re: Herb-students digest, Vol 1 #40 - 2 msgs Message-ID: Thank-you to everyone who has responded to my case study. Your assistance and input as helped me alot. I have not had a chance to reach my email until two nights ago, thus my response now- have been extremely busy. I had already prescribed herbs to her before I had a chance to email you. I diagnosed her as having static heat in the lung and stomach. I prescribed. Long Li ye 12g , Pi Pa Ye 12g, Zi Wan 12g, Fang Feng 12g, Sang Ye 12g, Chen Pi 6g, Fu Ling 12g, Sheng Di 12g, Chi Shao 9g, Xing Ren 9g. I haven't got my book with me there we a couple of other herbs. i saw her 2nite her complexion has cleared up- not completely. She said her lungs feel stronger and her pulse on her right side was more pronounced. It had strength to it. Her pulse was slightly faster than previously. Her face still had bumps yet they were not as red. THey had surfaced to the skin. I am going to change the formula this week. As her liver pulse was rapid and wiry. THANK_YOU EVERYBODY for all YOURE HELP!!!! >From: herb-students-request@gancao.net >Reply-To: herb-students@gancao.net >To: herb-students@gancao.net >Subject: Herb-students digest, Vol 1 #40 - 2 msgs >Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 12:19:40 -0500 (EST) > >Send Herb-students mailing list submissions to > herb-students@gancao.net > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/herb-students >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > herb-students-request@gancao.net > >You can reach the person managing the list at > herb-students-admin@gancao.net > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >than "Re: Contents of Herb-students digest..." > > >Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: skin (douglas) > 2. slow pulse = "healthy" heart?? (phiangel) > >--__--__-- > >Message: 1 >Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 16:20:57 -0800 >From: douglas >To: herb-students@gancao.net >Subject: Re: [Herb-students] skin >Reply-To: herb-students@gancao.net > > >--------------D285EAAF7427520228DEA7D2 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; >x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >I think that's an important distinction you've made, translated verbatim >obviously from dear Old >Doctor Gu. ;-) >The reason I shy away from wind as a global diagnosis is that giving wind >scattering herbs might >also scatter the disease all over the body. >doug > >Al Stone wrote: > > > douglas wrote: > > > > > I believe (and can't back it up by a book) that the itchiness is in >this case the element of > > > toxicity in the blood. > > > > I'm cool with blood heat or heat toxin, but the itchiness is due to the > > heat damaging the blood in the *local area only*. The heat damages the > > blood in the centemeter surrounding the lesion only. This was a > > pathomechanism presented by Dr. Gu at Emperor's college who specialized > > in dermatology in China, but unfortunately not the English language. ; ) > > > >--------------D285EAAF7427520228DEA7D2 >Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > >I think that's an important distinction you've made, translated verbatim >obviously from dear Old Doctor Gu. ;-) >
The reason I shy away from wind as a global diagnosis is that giving >wind scattering herbs might also scatter the disease all over the body. >
doug >

Al Stone wrote: >

douglas wrote: >

> I believe (and can't back it up by a book) that the itchiness is in >this case the element of >
> toxicity in the blood. >

I'm cool with blood heat or heat toxin, but the itchiness is due to >the >
heat damaging the blood in the *local area only*. The heat damages >the >
blood in the centemeter surrounding the lesion only. This was a >
pathomechanism presented by Dr. Gu at Emperor's college who specialized >
in dermatology in China, but unfortunately not the English language. >; ) >
href="http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/herb-students"> 

> > >--------------D285EAAF7427520228DEA7D2-- > > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 2 >Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 16:23:36 +1300 >From: phiangel >To: herb-students@gancao.net >Subject: [Herb-students] slow pulse = "healthy" heart?? >Reply-To: herb-students@gancao.net > > >--------------25B2A89C8B736A953B889516 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > >I agree with you Al re: a slow pulse can be an "athletic pulse", however >i have a suspiscion that there may be underlying pathlogy within >this.... > >An "Athletic Heart" after all is carrying a large amount of scar tissue, >and eventhough the heart appears to be operating more efficently (ie: >increased cardiac output....), there are many questions i have regarding >this being "healthy" eg: personal observation of "athletes" being >obsessive or emotionally agitated (shen disturbance via heart >pathology), either being "all go" or "flat" (ie: yang qi >depletion)....etc > > >Also, I remember a chinese saying (or something) about how we have only >a fixed number of heart beats and t/f overly strenuous exercise is not >recommended b/c the heartbeats get used up.... this may explain why the >pulse is slow too? (yang depletion?) >Anyway that idea lead me to think more about the heartbeat and then i >discovered alot of supposedly very fit (healthy?) athletes ended up >dying or suffering from heart pathologies.... (from a Western Medical >Science perspective) > >makes me reassess what i thought was "good" for me re: exercise.... and >if a "healthy" heart does in fact beat slowly....? >to a degree, i think not.... > >brendon > > > > > > > From: Al Stone > > Reply-To: herb-students@gancao.net > > > > Athletes, or persons who work out a lot tend to have really healthy > > hearts with a very efficient cardiac output, and so the heart doesn't > > have to beat as quickly. So, people in very good physical condition > > can develop a slow pulse. In such a case it would not indicate a > > pathology. > > > > This pulse is sometimes called the "athletic pulse". > > > > -al. > > > > > >--------------25B2A89C8B736A953B889516 >Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > >
 
>I agree with you Al re: a slow pulse can be an "athletic pulse", however >i have a suspiscion that there may be underlying pathlogy within this.... >

An "Athletic Heart" after all is carrying a large amount of scar tissue, >and eventhough the heart appears to be operating more efficently (ie: >increased >cardiac output....), there are many questions i have regarding this being >"healthy" eg: personal observation of "athletes" being obsessive or >emotionally >agitated (shen disturbance via heart pathology), either being "all go" >or "flat" (ie: yang qi depletion)....etc >
  >

Also, I remember a chinese saying (or something) about how we have only >a fixed number of heart beats and t/f overly strenuous exercise is not >recommended b/c the heartbeats get used up.... this may explain why the >pulse is slow too?  (yang depletion?) >
Anyway that idea lead me to think more about the heartbeat and then >i discovered alot of supposedly very fit (healthy?) athletes ended up dying >or suffering from heart pathologies.... (from a Western Medical Science >perspective) >

makes me reassess what i thought was "good" for me re: exercise.... >and if a "healthy" heart does in fact beat slowly....? >
to a degree, i think not.... >

brendon >
  >
  >

  >
From: Al Stone <alstone@beyondwellbeing.com> >
Reply-To: herb-students@gancao.net > >

Athletes, or persons who work out a lot tend to have really >healthy
>hearts with a very efficient cardiac output, and so the heart doesn't
>have to beat as quickly. So, people in very good physical condition can >develop a slow pulse. In such a case it would not indicate a >pathology.  
>
>This pulse is sometimes called the "athletic pulse".
>
>-al.
>
>

> > >--------------25B2A89C8B736A953B889516-- > > > > > >--__--__-- > >_______________________________________________ >New from Gancao.net: >Acublog: reinterpreting biomedical research through the eyes of traditional >Chinese medicine. >http://gancao.net/weblogs/acublog.cgi > > >Herb-students mailing list >Herb-students@gancao.net >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/herb-students > >End of Herb-students Digest _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From alstone at beyondwellbeing.com Fri Dec 6 15:56:23 2002 From: alstone at beyondwellbeing.com (Al Stone) Date: Tue Jun 22 08:08:59 2004 Subject: [Herb-students] extract powders References: <16b.181ff3f0.2b22607f@aol.com> Message-ID: <3DF10EF9.D534EB02@beyondwellbeing.com> GR409@aol.com wrote: > > Jennifer writes: > > Have you used freeze dried herbals? Any time I try to find a compare > contrast article, I always just find sites selling herbs. I hear it is the > way to go, let me know if you find anything. Hope you had a great > holiday...Jennifer I use the freeze dried herbals exclusively. They're more commonly called 'extract powders'. If you go here you'll find some companies that sell the powders: http://gancao.net/aculinks/phpHoo2.php3?viewCat=73 As with everything, there is a yin side and a yang side to the use of extract powders. Overall, I like them though. HOwever I think that the raw herbs are stronger. But you don't get good patient complience with the raw herbs. i.e. they taste bad. I put the powders into capsules. -- Al Stone L.Ac. http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. From GR409 at aol.com Fri Dec 6 15:20:15 2002 From: GR409 at aol.com (GR409@aol.com) Date: Tue Jun 22 08:08:59 2004 Subject: [Herb-students] (no subject) Message-ID: <16b.181ff3f0.2b22607f@aol.com> Jennifer writes: Have you used freeze dried herbals? Any time I try to find a compare contrast article, I always just find sites selling herbs. I hear it is the way to go, let me know if you find anything. Hope you had a great holiday...Jennifer From alstone at beyondwellbeing.com Thu Dec 5 21:19:13 2002 From: alstone at beyondwellbeing.com (Al Stone) Date: Tue Jun 22 08:08:59 2004 Subject: [Herb-students] slow pulse = "healthy" heart?? References: <20021204162014.55840536DE@pairlist.net> <3DEEC6B8.48255D3C@ihug.co.nz> Message-ID: <3DF00922.7DFF2C1F@beyondwellbeing.com> I've noticed that strongly motivated athletes can indeed be as obsessed with it as any drug addict too... Your points are well taken. Of course, you still have to treat what you see in any case, and in many cases, diagnosis is as much what information you include as the information you ignore. I have a few books on tongue diagnosis for instance. Most of them will admit at one point in the introduction that the pathological tongue may actually be normal for the individual. So, we can't always draw a one to one correspondance between signs and syndromes. -al. phiangel wrote: > > > > > I agree with you Al re: a slow pulse can be an "athletic pulse", > however i have a suspiscion that there may be underlying pathlogy > within this.... > > An "Athletic Heart" after all is carrying a large amount of scar > tissue, and eventhough the heart appears to be operating more > efficently (ie: increased cardiac output....), there are many > questions i have regarding this being "healthy" eg: personal > observation of "athletes" being obsessive or emotionally agitated > (shen disturbance via heart pathology), either being "all go" or > "flat" (ie: yang qi depletion)....etc > > > Also, I remember a chinese saying (or something) about how we have > only a fixed number of heart beats and t/f overly strenuous exercise > is not recommended b/c the heartbeats get used up.... this may explain > why the pulse is slow too? (yang depletion?) > Anyway that idea lead me to think more about the heartbeat and then i > discovered alot of supposedly very fit (healthy?) athletes ended up > dying or suffering from heart pathologies.... (from a Western Medical > Science perspective) > > makes me reassess what i thought was "good" for me re: exercise.... > and if a "healthy" heart does in fact beat slowly....? > to a degree, i think not.... > > brendon > > > > > > > From: Al Stone > > Reply-To: herb-students@gancao.net > > > > Athletes, or persons who work out a lot tend to have really healthy > > hearts with a very efficient cardiac output, and so the heart > > doesn't > > have to beat as quickly. So, people in very good physical condition > > can develop a slow pulse. In such a case it would not indicate a > > pathology. > > > > This pulse is sometimes called the "athletic pulse". > > > > -al. > > > > -- Al Stone L.Ac. http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. From ebnykhda at hotmail.com Sat Dec 7 05:41:04 2002 From: ebnykhda at hotmail.com (Ebony-Khadija Davis) Date: Tue Jun 22 08:08:59 2004 Subject: [Herb-students] (no subject) Message-ID: >From: GR409@aol.com >Reply-To: herb-students@gancao.net >To: herb-students@gancao.net, alstone@beyondwellbeing.com >Subject: [Herb-students] (no subject) >Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 15:20:15 EST > >Jennifer writes: > >Have you used freeze dried herbals? Any time I try to find a compare >contrast article, I always just find sites selling herbs. I hear it is the >way to go, let me know if you find anything. Hope you had a great >holiday...Jennifer > > Hello Jennifer! thank you for writing. My experience with herbals is quite limited. In Germany, I have not heard of freeze dried herbals! To be truthful this is the first time I have heard of such! Sorry that I can not help you. I wish you a wonderful holiday as well. Take care Ebby > > >_______________________________________________ >New from Gancao.net: >Acublog: reinterpreting biomedical research through the eyes of traditional >Chinese medicine. >http://gancao.net/weblogs/acublog.cgi > > >Herb-students mailing list >Herb-students@gancao.net >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/herb-students _________________________________________________________________ Messenger? - ?Wer in Echtzeit kommunizieren will, l?dt den MSN Messenger. Cool, kostenlos und mit 3D Emoticons: http://messenger.msn.de From alstone at beyondwellbeing.com Mon Dec 9 20:54:32 2002 From: alstone at beyondwellbeing.com (Al Stone) Date: Tue Jun 22 08:08:59 2004 Subject: [Herb-students] Extra Credit Assignment Message-ID: <3DF54959.8109635C@beyondwellbeing.com> Some of my students have been asking me about the extra-credit assignment... Here it is: Take any category of herbs and find the commonalities to all or most of the herbs. For instance, herbs that expel wind-dampness (Anti-rheumatics). This is a category that I actually missed during the 11th week lecture. To get a little bit in about all the categories caused me to get a little bit too general and we would all be served well by a more complete look into the commonalities of any given herb category. Herbs that expel wind-dampness tend to have three common properties. They are often warm, pungent, and bitter. The channels that they enter will tend to describe which areas their functions are most targeting. For instance, Qiang Huo goes to the UB and Kidney channels and its medical efficacy is most evident in the lower back and the legs where the Kidney and UB channels traverse. The most common cause for bi syndrome (painful obstruction syndrome in this case due to some external pathogen clogging up the flow of qi in the channels) is a mixture of cold, damp, and wind. Warm herbs address the cold, bitter dries the damp, and the pungent flavor addresses the wind by pushing it out of the channel system. So, if any of my students, or anybody else on this list would like to look through Bensky or other herb text and look at the commonalities among the herbs in a given category (or "chapter" as the case may be) you are welcome to provide us a report. My students who want extra credit for this must have their's done by Monday, December 15th. -- Al Stone L.Ac. http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. From lorne.hill at telus.net Tue Dec 10 11:35:52 2002 From: lorne.hill at telus.net (Lorne & Dodie Hill) Date: Tue Jun 22 08:08:59 2004 Subject: [Herb-students] RE: Herb-students digest, Vol 1 #43 Western and Chinese herbs In-Reply-To: <20021207170334.CC568538F1@pairlist.net> Message-ID: I am presently a TCM student and was wondering if anyone knew of a site that listed the compatibilities and incompatibilities when using Chinese Medicine herbs on a patient who was also on Western medications. I have heard that one should wait 4 hours between each type of "medicine". > > Can it be that simple? Or are there some western drugs that should not be mixed with herbs? > > I would greatly appreciate any information. > > P.S. I enjoy this form of contact with all of you that are in this field of healthcare. I have found that recently, (especially) the messages and discussions are very informative. Keep it up. > > Dodie (from Vancouver Canada) From alstone at beyondwellbeing.com Tue Dec 10 14:20:27 2002 From: alstone at beyondwellbeing.com (Al Stone) Date: Tue Jun 22 08:08:59 2004 Subject: [Herb-students] RE: Herb-students digest, Vol 1 #43 Western and Chinese herbs References: Message-ID: <3DF63E7C.C6589D34@beyondwellbeing.com> Lorne & Dodie Hill wrote: > > I am presently a TCM student and was wondering if anyone knew of a site that > listed the compatibilities and incompatibilities when using Chinese Medicine > herbs on a patient who was also on Western medications. I have heard that > one should wait 4 hours between each type of "medicine". That's a good rule of thumb, though I personally would be okay with one or two hours, just enough time to get the drugs absorbed, or out of the stomach so the herbs can be properly assimilated. > > Can it be that simple? Or are there some western drugs that should not be > mixed with herbs? There are a few known interactions that aren't so great such as Chai Hu (Rx. Bupleurum) and interferon. Some people died in Japan who were taking both of these. Chai Hu comes up in a formula for hepititis (xiao chai hu tang), and interferon is also used for this disease, hence the opportunity for this particular interaction. Other than these few (no others even come to mind) what I tend to do is look at the mechanism of the drug and compare it to the function of the herb to avoid either potentiating the action or negating it. For instance, coumadin is a blood thiner used to prevent strokes and other circulatory problems. To give someone blood activator herbs may cause the blood to become even thinner. This could give rise to excessive internal bleeding, lowered blood pressure and a few other ugly things. By the same token, if you have a patient on someting like synthroid which ends up looking like a Yang tonic, and you start giving the patient heat clearing herbs, it may negate the necessary effects of the synthroid and the patient's hypothyroid symptoms may return. Now, these are just examples, but the idea is to look at what the drug does to the patient, translate that into TCM terms and then decide if the herb or formula is compatible with the treatment principle already in place. To be honest, coumadin is such a heavy duty drug that whenever I see someone on it, I tend to avoid herbs entirely because its usually a sort of last-ditch effort to save a life and I hate to mess around with these patients for fear of doing something unforeseen and making them sicker or worse. Acupuncture is far more forgiving for these kinds of patients and so I lean toward the needles alone for patients who are being kept alive with drugs. Another patient that I tend to avoid herbal therapy with is the person who is taking more than five drugs, and there is no shortage of patients such as this. There are simply too many unforeseen reactions and interactions going on to know at all what's going to happen. I had a patient who was on something like 9 drugs, half of them treating the side effects of the other half. She wanted to get off the drugs altogether. I began to give her herbs and for the first two months, she was doing great. She lowered the dosage on half of the drugs and even stopped taking a few of them. We were making great progress till I didn't hear from her for a while. I contacted her to see what was going on. She said that she had developed severe headaches and found that when she stoped taking the herbs, they went away. In her words: "My doctor says that herbs can give you headaches." Never mind all the drug interactions, it must by the herbs. And so she stopped taking them and I haven't heard from her since. This case is an opportunity for a few learning experiences. Firstly, because when she stopped taking the herbs, the headache went away, I could have simply tracked down the likely culpret, removed or replaced it in the formula and we could have continued on. But the real problem here, and my own personal frustration with the situation is that The Doctor told her something that clearly came from a place of ignorance on his part and she took it, hook line and sinker. His statement that "herbs can cause headaches" is of course true, but nothing compared to the drugs that he's giving her. I'm not anti-drug actually. But I was trying to do what she wanted, and that was to ween herself off of drug therapy, and we were making excellent progress, but as soon as some minor side effect arises, she went running off to our culture's de facto expert in medicine, the MD, and my opinion suddenly has no weight or importance. Therein lies my frustration. Oh well, her health is her choice, always was, always will be. -al. -- Al Stone L.Ac. http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. From phiangel at ihug.co.nz Tue Dec 10 14:39:52 2002 From: phiangel at ihug.co.nz (phiangel) Date: Tue Jun 22 08:08:59 2004 Subject: [Herb-students] Re: Commonalities of Herbals References: <20021210170323.96C64536E1@pairlist.net> Message-ID: <3DF64308.BFF2ACE6@ihug.co.nz> > Now this is something i have never been clearly taught in westen or chinese herbal classes, though it was quite a focus in ayurvedic classes.... What is the relationship of the properties of the herbals to their action? Perhaps this would be good to be covered briefly before the extra credit assignment? For example, you mentioned: Warm herbs address the cold, bitter dries the damp, and the pungent flavor addresses the wind by pushing it out of the channel system. *Can i infer from this that all bitter herbals dry damp? *Are Bitter herbals diuretics? *What if a Herbal in the "Expel Wind-Dampness" category is NOT Bitter?? eg: can sha (sweet (!), acrid, warm) or mu gua ( sour, slightly warm) *Is the overall property of the formula more important ie: can contain sweet herbals, but must be bitter overall? *given the general tendency of patients to dislike bitter taste, is compliance for wind-cold-damp obstruction sufferers most difficult? ;-) If you have time Al, could you briefly mention the main actions of each property? many thanks brendon > > From: Al Stone > Reply-To: herb-students@gancao.net > Organization: beyondwellbeing.com > To: herb students list > > Some of my students have been asking me about the extra-credit > assignment... Here it is: > > Take any category of herbs and find the commonalities to all or most of the herbs. > > For instance, herbs that expel wind-dampness (Anti-rheumatics). This is > a category that I actually missed during the 11th week lecture. To get > a little bit in about all the categories caused me to get a little bit > too general and we would all be served well by a more complete look into > the commonalities of any given herb category. > > Herbs that expel wind-dampness tend to have three common properties. > They are often warm, pungent, and bitter. The channels that they enter > will tend to describe which areas their functions are most targeting. > For instance, Qiang Huo goes to the UB and Kidney channels and its > medical efficacy is most evident in the lower back and the legs where > the Kidney and UB channels traverse. The most common cause for bi > syndrome (painful obstruction syndrome in this case due to some external > pathogen clogging up the flow of qi in the channels) is a mixture of > cold, damp, and wind. > > Warm herbs address the cold, bitter dries the damp, and the pungent > flavor addresses the wind by pushing it out of the channel system. > > So, if any of my students, or anybody else on this list would like to > look through Bensky or other herb text and look at the commonalities > among the herbs in a given category (or "chapter" as the case may be) > you are welcome to provide us a report. > > My students who want extra credit for this must have their's done by > Monday, December 15th. > > -- > Al Stone L.Ac. > > http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com > > Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://five.pairlist.net/pipermail/tcm-students/attachments/20021211/5a66d526/attachment.htm From taiqi at taiqi.com Tue Dec 10 15:10:58 2002 From: taiqi at taiqi.com (douglas) Date: Tue Jun 22 08:08:59 2004 Subject: [Herb-students] RE: Herb-students digest, Vol 1 #43 Western and Chinese herbs References: <3DF63E7C.C6589D34@beyondwellbeing.com> Message-ID: <3DF64A51.19EA6DD7@taiqi.com> > sometimes I think the real problem is the certainty that western medicine and thought tries to give. The Doctor can say "Yes, there are side-effects of these drugs that may even be fatal. But we know that." Whereas our approach is that nothing in life is certain, there is mystery, and most importantly, Everything Changes. The Patient who looks to the doctor to "fix" them will be frustrated with the Chinese doctor as artist and co-participant in life and health. [How's that for New Age? ;-)] doug > But the real problem here, and my own personal frustration with the > situation is that The Doctor told her something that clearly came from a > place of ignorance on his part and she took it, hook line and sinker. > His statement that "herbs can cause headaches" is of course true, but > nothing compared to the drugs that he's giving her. > > I'm not anti-drug actually. But I was trying to do what she wanted, and > that was to ween herself off of drug therapy, and we were making > excellent progress, but as soon as some minor side effect arises, she > went running off to our culture's de facto expert in medicine, the MD, > and my opinion suddenly has no weight or importance. > > Therein lies my frustration. Oh well, her health is her choice, always > was, always will be. > > -al. From alstone at beyondwellbeing.com Tue Dec 10 17:55:30 2002 From: alstone at beyondwellbeing.com (Al Stone) Date: Tue Jun 22 08:08:59 2004 Subject: [Herb-students] Re: Commonalities of Herbals References: <20021210170323.96C64536E1@pairlist.net> <3DF64308.BFF2ACE6@ihug.co.nz> Message-ID: <3DF670E3.699A8426@beyondwellbeing.com> phiangel wrote: > > > > > Now this is something i have never been clearly taught in westen or > chinese herbal classes, though it was quite a focus in ayurvedic > classes.... > > What is the relationship of the properties of the herbals to their > action? > > Perhaps this would be good to be covered briefly before the extra > credit assignment? Here's a brief synopsis of the actions of the various tastes and temperatures: The four Qi: hot, warm, (neutral,) cool, cold: used to treat cold and heat. (Warm treats cool and cool treats warmth etc.) The tastes Pungent (acrid): disperse and move sweet: tonify, harmonize, calm, moisten, lift bitter: drain (heat, and damp?), dry (damp) and sedate (heat in the heart) sour: astringe and prevent or abnormal leakage of fluids or Qi salty: Purges (intestines), softens (lumps, bone spurs). (Bland, which means a lack of taste): Seeps out dampness and promotes urination. (Astringent): An action more than taste, same as sour, but without the sour taste. (aromatic): An action to pierce through turbidity to awaken or open the Spleen or Heart orifices. Pungent and sweet are more Yang. Pungent disperses and sweet lifts. Sweet+pungent creates more yang. Bitter and sour are more Yin in that they drain down or astringe. Sweet+sour creates more yin. Salty and Bland are not included in the Nei Jing?s estimation of the yin and yang of flavors. Directionality: (generalizations) Pungent disperse from the inside to the outside, guides to metal element (lung/large intestine) Salty descends and guides toward the water element (kidneys/urinary bladder) sour astringes from exterior to interior, guides to the wood element (liver/gall bladder) bitter descends and guides toward the fire element (heart/small intestine) Sweet lifts and guides toward the earth element (spleen/stomach), though some books say that the sweet flavor stays put, and doesn't move, really. > For example, you mentioned: > Warm herbs address the cold, bitter dries the damp, and the pungent > flavor addresses the wind by pushing it out of the channel system. > > *Can i infer from this that all bitter herbals dry damp? Nope. Sorry. : ) Welcome to TCM. > *Are Bitter herbals diuretics? Some yes, some no. As a rule, bland herbs are diuretics. > *What if a Herbal in the "Expel Wind-Dampness" category is NOT > Bitter?? eg: can sha (sweet (!), acrid, warm) or mu gua ( sour, > slightly warm) Yeah, go figure. The point is, that there are generalities based on the functions of the different flavors and knowing these generalities can help you learn your herbs because then you have less to memorize. > *Is the overall property of the formula more important ie: can > contain sweet herbals, but must be bitter overall? Formulas tend to do more than just one thing, for instance some formulas that are very bitter and cold can damage the SPleen Yang and cause diarrhea, so these formulas may include a warm herb or two to protect that Spleen Yang. > *given the general tendency of patients to dislike bitter taste, is > compliance for wind-cold-damp obstruction sufferers most difficult? The functional taste and the taste on the tongue are two different things, but in general yes, medicinal herb teas are... distasteful? ; ) -- Al Stone L.Ac. http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. From lmcmanus1 at juno.com Sat Dec 14 13:20:02 2002 From: lmcmanus1 at juno.com (Linda J McManus) Date: Tue Jun 22 08:08:59 2004 Subject: [Herb-students] Re: epilepsy Message-ID: <20021214.102037.-519637.2.Lmcmanus1@juno.com> Hi All - I am looking for information about epilepsy. This is not for a patient of mine, but a friend of the family is looking for something for her daughter. The daughter is 14 years old, mentally handicapped and epileptic. The mom got something about herbs on the web (not my favorite source, but there you have it) and I am wondering if any of you know either about this or have any information from your own learnings about epilepsy and seizures. I do not - other than basic TCM ideas of Kidney Jing xu and Wind and Phlegm. Any experience with this out there? The info she got is: chinaberry (Azadirachta indica syn. Melia azadirachta) Qingyang shen Shosaiko-to-gokeisha-ka-shakuyakuto: this I picked apart using Bensky and find "shosaikoto" to mean Minor Bupleurum/Xiao Chai Hu Tang and "shakuyakuto" to mean Peony Decoction/Shao Yao Tang. Can't reference the middle part. And, am not sure about this application. Thanks much. Linda McManus Lmcmanus1@juno.com (360) 620-2144 From alstone at beyondwellbeing.com Sat Dec 14 14:21:47 2002 From: alstone at beyondwellbeing.com (Al Stone) Date: Tue Jun 22 08:08:59 2004 Subject: [Herb-students] Re: epilepsy References: <20021214.102037.-519637.2.Lmcmanus1@juno.com> Message-ID: <3DFB84CC.28229A2B@beyondwellbeing.com> My experience with epilepsy is limited to some eight extra meridian treatments that I learned a while back and the use of tian ma gou teng yin, but yes, you're right that you'll need to differentiate the syndrome before chosing any therapy. I think that you're right to assume Jing Xu, Wind and Phlegm. -al. Linda J McManus wrote: > > Hi All - > > I am looking for information about epilepsy. This is not for a patient > of mine, but a friend of the family is looking for something for her > daughter. The daughter is 14 years old, mentally handicapped and > epileptic. The mom got something about herbs on the web (not my favorite > source, but there you have it) and I am wondering if any of you know > either about this or have any information from your own learnings about > epilepsy and seizures. I do not - other than basic TCM ideas of Kidney > Jing xu and Wind and Phlegm. Any experience with this out there? > > The info she got is: > chinaberry (Azadirachta indica syn. Melia azadirachta) > > Qingyang shen > > Shosaiko-to-gokeisha-ka-shakuyakuto: this I picked apart using Bensky and > find "shosaikoto" to mean Minor Bupleurum/Xiao Chai Hu Tang and > "shakuyakuto" to mean Peony Decoction/Shao Yao Tang. Can't reference the > middle part. And, am not sure about this application. > > Thanks much. > > Linda McManus > Lmcmanus1@juno.com > > (360) 620-2144 > > _______________________________________________ > New from Gancao.net: > Acublog: reinterpreting biomedical research through the eyes of traditional Chinese medicine. > http://gancao.net/weblogs/acublog.cgi > > Herb-students mailing list > Herb-students@gancao.net > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/herb-students -- Al Stone L.Ac. http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. From alstone at beyondwellbeing.com Mon Dec 16 15:17:49 2002 From: alstone at beyondwellbeing.com (Al Stone) Date: Tue Jun 22 08:08:59 2004 Subject: [Herb-students] Extra Credit Message-ID: <3DFE34F0.83823761@beyondwellbeing.com> Intro to Herbology Extra Credit #2 Hee-Sun Han 12/14/2002 Herbs that regulate the Qi tend to have three common properties, which are pungent, warm and bitter. Qi regulating herbs tend to enter the Spleen, Stomach, Lung, Large Intestine, and Liver meridians, because these organs directly affect the Qi movement in the body. These herbs treat Qi stagnation caused by emotional disturbance, accumulation of internal Cold, Heat, Phlegm, water, food, trauma, and Blood stagnation through regulating, spreading, harmonizing the Qi. Pungency disperses, warmth dries dampness and expels cold, and bitterness descends. Herbs with warm and pungent properties promote Qi movement. Pungent-bitter herbs move upward and downward, moving Qi in tow directions for activating Qi movement. Pungent-better-warm herbs works steadily and constantly to dry dampness. Many of the herbs are tangerine, bitter orange, or orange. Because of the aromatic (in some), pungent, warm, and dry nature of these herbs, long term use can injure the Yin and body fluids. The herbs need to be used with caution during heavy menstruation or in bleeding conditions, because warm and pungent properties can activate Qi movement, causing heavy menstrual bleeding. Dispersing action of the Qi regulating herbs should be used carefully in patients with Qi deficiency, because it may disperse the Qi of the patient too much. Most of the herbs under this category contain volatile oils, therefore should be decocted no longer than 15 minutes. Chen Pi [Citrus reticulata] is dried tangerine peel (normally kept for a year before use) that has pungent, bitter, warm, aromatic properties. Chen Pi goes to Lung, Spleen, Stomach channels. Bitterness of this herb promotes the Qi movement, directing it downward. By entering Spleen or Stomach channels, it improves the transportive function and relieves symptoms from Qi stasis. Warm property of Chen Pi enters Lung and Spleen channels to dry dampness and transform phlegm. Pungency disperses and helps to open the meridians for promoting Qi movement and blood circulation. Aromatic property has moving and dispersing action and has aroma. It enters the Spleen channel to transform the turbidity of Dampness and harmonize the Qi and Blood. It also is used for unblocking Qi and Blood obstructions and relieving pain. When used with tonifying herbs, Chen Pi helps to prevent stagnation caused by their cloying nature. Following charts were made based on the information provided in Materia Medica by Bensky. Channels the herbs enter Herb LU SP ST KID UB GB LI SI SJ LIV Chen Pi * * * Qing Pi * * * Da Fu Pi * * * * Zhi Shi * * * Xiang Fu * * Mu Xiang * * * * Wu Yao * * * * Chen Xiang * * * Tan Xiang * * * Xie Bai * * * Fo Shou * * * * Mei Gui Hua * * Chuan Lian Zi * * * * Li Zhi He * * Shi Di * * Herb Properties Herb Acrid (Pungent) Warm Bitter Aromatic Sweet Neutral Astringent Cold Chen Pi * * * * Qing Pi * * * Da Fu Pi * * Zhi Shi * * * Xiang * * * * Mu Xiang * * * Wu Yao * * Chen Xiang * * * * Tan Xiang * * * Xie Bai * * * Fo Shou * * * Mei Gui Hua * * * Chuan Lian Zi * * Li Zhi He * * * Shi Di * * * -- Al Stone L.Ac. http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. From alstone at beyondwellbeing.com Thu Dec 19 17:39:34 2002 From: alstone at beyondwellbeing.com (Al Stone) Date: Tue Jun 22 08:08:59 2004 Subject: [Herb-students] extra credit assignment Message-ID: <3E024AA6.506E41D9@beyondwellbeing.com> Hello Prof. Stone, How are you doing? Here is the extra credit you assigned. I had a lot of fun doing it. I am going to do this for all of the categories over the break, as my first pass at understanding and getting a grounding in the Herbs. If you don't mind, I would like to know what you think of my evaluation of this category of herbs, as I realize that I may have chosen a fairly difficult category to do as it is not as cut-and-dry as other categories we've looked at. Thank you. Vanessa I. Harvey ____________________ Hi Vanessa, I'm going to take what you've written and make a few comments too, just for the list... My comments will be wrapped by some of these "<<<". -al. ____________________ Category: Aromatic Herbs that Open the Orifices Aromatic Herbs that Open the Orifices are used to open the orifices and awaken the Spirit, particularly in the case of "Locked-up" syndrome, an acute, Excess syndrome where the orifices (sensory and/or Heart orifices) are blocked by a disturbance of Qi and Blood which are complicated by Phlegm, Heat or Cold, or Yang-rising. >>>For the sake of translation, we're looking at various states of epilepsy or coma in these pathologies. In "locked up cases", a state of unconsciouness is part of the syndrome. There are actually two types of coma/loss of consciousness disorders. There's the "closed" or "locked-up" syndrome and there's the "open" or "abandoned" syndrome. The Closed syndrome is excessive, involves tight jawed or rigid muscles while the open syndrome features an open mouth and relaxed muscles. <<< This category of herbs are either Pungent/Aromatic, or Pungent and Bitter and can have a temperature of warm or cold, depending on its application. As blocked orifices due to pathogenic factors obstruct the Heart and therefore the Shen, which the Heart governs, all of the Herbs in this category target the Heart channel. >>>The Heart governs the Blood. It pushes it around. The Heart stores the Shen. Minor little point, but I figured that I'd make it.<<< Most of the herbs are Pungent, which moves, disperses, and promotes Qi and Blood movement. In the Heart, the Pungency will help circulate the Blood and open the Heart orifices to support and revive the Shen. >>>Remember that the pungent flavor has an outward, dispersing quality about it, and this is somewhat consistant with the nature of fire. It glows, it shines, a healthy Shen will light up a room with warmth. So, the pungent flavor in its way can assist the Shen in projecting itself outward. More therapeutically speaking, the pungent flavor can move phlegm which helps to break it up and open the Heart orifices. <<< The Aromatic quality of some of the herbs in this category works the same as the Pungent, but its fragrant and light quality unblocks Qi and Blood obstruction and relives Pain, and also penetrates the turbidity of the Dampness and Phlegm in the Middle Jiao (Spleen/Stomach). >>> It also penetrates the turbidity of phlegm misting any orifice, whether it is a Heart orifice or a sensory orifice. <<< Indeed, many of these Herbs in this category enter the Spleen to promote its function of Transforming and Transporting the accumulated Dampness and Phlegm, as well as invigorating the Blood and moving the Qi, as the Spleen is the first step in the production of Blood and Qi. >>> Remember, the Earth element creates the dampness and the Metal element stores it. Removing dampness from the Spleen can assist in bringing back its ability to T&T, while at the same time increasing its ability to T&T will prevent dampness (and later on, phlegm) from accumulating in the first place.<<< The Bitterness of some of the Herbs dries the Dampness (and the Phlegm it produces) as well. Of the Herbs, three -- She Xiang, Su He Xiang, and Shi Chang Pu -- are warm Herbs used for Cold "Locked-up" syndrome, while the cold herbs -- Bing Pian and Niu Huang -- address Hot "Locked-up" syndrome. >>>That which comes from heat is usually associated with some sort of high fever, specifically heat in the pericardium. This is a feature of Ying Stage Heat which is part of the Wen Bing way of looking at things. The cold type of locked up syndrome is where there is some cold in the body which effects the water metabolism leading the production of dampness, then phlegm and finally phlegm in the Heart orifices.<<< Thanks Vanessa, this was good. -al. From SJeevanjee at aol.com Sat Dec 21 20:20:44 2002 From: SJeevanjee at aol.com (SJeevanjee@aol.com) Date: Tue Jun 22 08:08:59 2004 Subject: [Herb-students] chronic insomnia case Message-ID: <5973D7EC.4DA86166.0BF9F5C4@aol.com> Hello fellow students, I am so happy to see a forum like this - thanks so much Al. ?Since I am a newly qualified acupuncturist who has only recently started studying herbs, it would be great if any of you could help me out with a precription for a chronic insomnia case. * Male, 40 yrs, Insomnia since age 10 or earlier. ?Tall, slightly thin, good humoured. ?Slightly flushed face, balding in GB area, some sweat on forehead. ?Has very responsible job, but does not seem stressed by it. ?Lost little finger in fire work accident when young. Sleep s/s: * gets to sleep easily but wakes about every 45 mins (wide awake and restless) and sleeps best between 6.30-9am. ?NEVER wakes rested. * night sweats, alternating hot and cold sensations both day and night - "no temperature regulation" ?- negative result from thyroid test. * vivid dreams: about 1 every 2-3 months Secondary s/s: * must eat regulary (8am/12am/6pm) or he suffers "sharp, stabbing cramps and loose stools" in the large intestine area (although he says they are in his Stomach). ? * dark scanty urine 1 time/day * very thirsty all the time (but drinks coffee and coke) * tight chest always * hot flushes * poor concentration and memory * used to like cold drinks, but recently prefers warm drinks * feels "cold all the time" * feels "low" during Fall Family history: * father had St ulcers and died at 60 of CHD * brother has St ulcers but no stress Pulse = superficial, surging (=full and struggling esp. on right side), rapid Tongue = thin body, red, no coat, central crack, slight deviation to left BP: 110/70 mmHg Western meds: Ambien .15mg, Imprimine (SSRI) .25mg. ?He has been taking these for 1.5 years and says they improve his sleep by about 20-30%. ?So far, he has noticed a dry mouth and occipital headaches in the morning which he thinks are side effects of the meds. TCM Dx: ? Yin xu-Heat ?(Kd ->Ht) --> Heart Fire ? Blood xu ? (assume that Liv Blood is not housing Shen) Sp/St xu and/or LI Heat Liv Qi Stag (-->Ht Fire/St Fire) early stage Yang xu because of Cold signs (????) please comment on this I focussed my first Tx on: Nourishing Yin, Blood and Fluids, Stopping sweat, Calm Shen, Mildly Move and Tonify constrained Qi, Drain HT and St Fire, Ton. Sp. and promote sleep Prescription: Sheng di ?10 Shu di ?10 Zhi mu ?5 Suan zao ren ?15 Dan shen ?12 He huan hua ?12 Fu shen ?12 Wu Wei zi ?10 Fu xiao mai ?8 Xi yang shen ?5 Huang lian 9 Zhi gan cao ?5 Sheng jiang ?2 slices Advice given so far: eat yin nourishing foods, stay off alcohol, coffee and spices. Try meditation which he has already started. Would be grateful for any comments on my diagnosis and prescription especially. Thanks, SJ From alstone at beyondwellbeing.com Sat Dec 21 20:57:46 2002 From: alstone at beyondwellbeing.com (Al Stone) Date: Tue Jun 22 08:08:59 2004 Subject: [Herb-students] chronic insomnia case References: <5973D7EC.4DA86166.0BF9F5C4@aol.com> Message-ID: <3E051C19.5C5450E5@beyondwellbeing.com> SJeevanjee@aol.com wrote: > > Hello fellow students, > > I am so happy to see a forum like this - thanks so much Al. ?Since I am a newly qualified acupuncturist who has only recently started studying herbs, it would be great if any of you could help me out with a precription for a chronic insomnia case. > > * Male, 40 yrs, Insomnia since age 10 or earlier. (((((Al sez: That already leans us toward a deficiency syndrome since it is a chronic issue. The deficiencies that are commonly considered a potential cause for insomnia include: Heart Blood and Spleen Qi Xu Heart and Kidney Yin Xu (and the other names such as kidney and heart not communicating) Heart and Gall Bladder Qi Xu Liver yin and Blood deficiency.))))) ?Tall, slightly thin, good humoured. ?Slightly flushed face, balding in GB area, some sweat on forehead. ?Has very responsible job, but does not seem stressed by it. ?Lost little finger in fire work accident when young. (((Blood deficiency, I'd expect a pale face, not flushed. I'm leaning toward the Yin Xu))) > Sleep s/s: > * gets to sleep easily but wakes about every 45 mins (wide awake and restless) and sleeps best between 6.30-9am. ?NEVER wakes rested. > * night sweats, alternating hot and cold sensations both day and night - "no temperature regulation" ?- negative result from thyroid test. > * vivid dreams: about 1 every 2-3 months ((((Night sweats= Yin xu or damp heat. I guess on rare occassions it could be Blood xu too. Vivid dreams says heat in the heart, though we don't know if that's excessive or deficient in nature.)))) > Secondary s/s: > * must eat regulary (8am/12am/6pm) or he suffers "sharp, stabbing cramps and loose stools" in the large intestine area (although he says they are in his Stomach). ? > * dark scanty urine 1 time/day (((Yin xu or heat))) > * very thirsty all the time (but drinks coffee and coke) (((Yin xu or thirst due to the coffee which is drying and coke which is weird too))) > * tight chest always (((Qi stagnation likely, could be phegm accumulation too.)))) > * hot flushes ((((Yin xu likely))) > * poor concentration and memory (((Yin xu leading to a possible Jing Xu)))) > * used to like cold drinks, but recently prefers warm drinks (((Yin xu leading to Yang or Qi or Jing xu, or perhaps has discovered the pleasures of Starbucks. ha ha))) > * feels "cold all the time" ((( Based on previous findings, I don't know if he really knows what his temperature feels like))) > * feels "low" during Fall > > Family history: > * father had St ulcers and died at 60 of CHD > * brother has St ulcers but no stress > > Pulse = superficial, surging (=full and struggling esp. on right side), rapid (((Yin Xu possible)))) > Tongue = thin body, red, no coat, central crack, slight deviation to left (((Yin Xu with slight Liver Yin Xu too)))) > BP: 110/70 mmHg > > Western meds: Ambien .15mg, Imprimine (SSRI) .25mg. ?He has been taking these for 1.5 years and says they improve his sleep by about 20-30%. ?So far, he has noticed a dry mouth and occipital headaches in the morning which he thinks are side effects of the meds. ((( Possibly aggravated by the underlying yin xu))) > > TCM Dx: ? > Yin xu-Heat ?(Kd ->Ht) --> Heart Fire (((Or false heat going to the heart, if that's what you meant))) > ? Blood xu ? (assume that Liv Blood is not housing Shen) ((((I don't see the Blood xu. It would be nice to see a pale tongue or dry eyes or brittle nails or some other liver signs or Blood xu signs.))) > Sp/St xu and/or LI Heat > Liv Qi Stag (-->Ht Fire/St Fire) > early stage Yang xu because of Cold signs (????) please comment on this (((Yeah, this is possible, I'm in agreeement, not sure though.))) > I focussed my first Tx on: > Nourishing Yin, Blood and Fluids, Stopping sweat, Calm Shen, Mildly Move and Tonify constrained Qi, Drain HT and St Fire, Ton. Sp. and promote sleep > > Prescription: (((I'd start out with simply Tian Wang Bu Xin Dan and perhaps modify it a bit to make sure that it is assimilated okay if there are some Spleen/Stomach issues suspected. ))) > > Sheng di ?10 (in twbxd) > Shu di ?10 > Zhi mu ?5 > Suan zao ren ?15 (in twbxd) > Dan shen ?12 (in twbxd) > He huan hua ?12 > Fu shen ?12 > Wu Wei zi ?10 (in twbxd) > Fu xiao mai ?8 > Xi yang shen ?5 > Huang lian 9 > Zhi gan cao ?5 > Sheng jiang ?2 slices (((Everything here looks good to me, but I have to admit that my level of herbal expertise isn't quite a the point where I would be able to really critique this formula, I just like to start out with the old reliables such as Tian Wang Bu Xin Dan, and see what happens with the patient after a month or so.))) > Advice given so far: eat yin nourishing foods, stay off alcohol, coffee and spices. Try meditation which he has already started. (((Yeah, those warm drying foods can be a problem. If you have a chance to pick up the Clinical Handbook of Internal Medicine, but Maclean and Lyttleton, you can get some on-going feedback for cases such as this. It is the (two volume set) book that I use the most. There's a third volume on its way too.))) -- Al Stone L.Ac. http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. From SJeevanjee at aol.com Sun Dec 22 23:11:12 2002 From: SJeevanjee at aol.com (SJeevanjee@aol.com) Date: Tue Jun 22 08:08:59 2004 Subject: [Herb-students] chronic insomnia case Message-ID: <4ACB4F1E.63150DB0.0BF9F5C4@aol.com> Thanks alot Al. It really helps to discuss this over with someone. I too thought of giving him Tian Wang Bu Xin Dan, but I felt that maybe it had too many yin tonics for someone whose digestion seemed a bit dodgy. I'll see how he responds to my formula and if you would like me to, I'll let you know how it goes. Btw, I also like the Maclean and Lyttleton books. Thx, SJ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ??Subj: ?? Herb-students digest, Vol 1 #48 - 2 msgs ??Date: ?? Sun, 22 Dec 2002 5:02:50 pm GMT ??From: ?? herb-students-request@gancao.net ??To: ?? herb-students@gancao.net ??Reply-To: ?? herb-students@gancao.net ??Sent from the Internet (Details) Send Herb-students mailing list submissions to ? ?herb-students@gancao.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit ? ?http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/herb-students or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to ? ?herb-students-request@gancao.net You can reach the person managing the list at ? ?herb-students-admin@gancao.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Herb-students digest..." Today's Topics: ? 1. chronic insomnia case (SJeevanjee@aol.com) ? 2. Re: chronic insomnia case (Al Stone) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 20:20:44 -0500 From: SJeevanjee@aol.com To: herb-students@gancao.net Subject: [Herb-students] chronic insomnia case Reply-To: herb-students@gancao.net Hello fellow students, I am so happy to see a forum like this - thanks so much Al. ?Since I am a newly qualified acupuncturist who has only recently started studying herbs, it would be great if any of you could help me out with a precription for a chronic insomnia case. * Male, 40 yrs, Insomnia since age 10 or earlier. ?Tall, slightly thin, good humoured. ?Slightly flushed face, balding in GB area, some sweat on forehead. ?Has very responsible job, but does not seem stressed by it. ?Lost little finger in fire work accident when young. Sleep s/s: * gets to sleep easily but wakes about every 45 mins (wide awake and restless) and sleeps best between 6.30-9am. ?NEVER wakes rested. * night sweats, alternating hot and cold sensations both day and night - "no temperature regulation" ?- negative result from thyroid test. * vivid dreams: about 1 every 2-3 months Secondary s/s: * must eat regulary (8am/12am/6pm) or he suffers "sharp, stabbing cramps and loose stools" in the large intestine area (although he says they are in his Stomach). ? * dark scanty urine 1 time/day * very thirsty all the time (but drinks coffee and coke) * tight chest always * hot flushes * poor concentration and memory * used to like cold drinks, but recently prefers warm drinks * feels "cold all the time" * feels "low" during Fall Family history: * father had St ulcers and died at 60 of CHD * brother has St ulcers but no stress Pulse = superficial, surging (=full and struggling esp. on right side), rapid Tongue = thin body, red, no coat, central crack, slight deviation to left BP: 110/70 mmHg Western meds: Ambien .15mg, Imprimine (SSRI) .25mg. ?He has been taking these for 1.5 years and says they improve his sleep by about 20-30%. ?So far, he has noticed a dry mouth and occipital headaches in the morning which he thinks are side effects of the meds. TCM Dx: ? Yin xu-Heat ?(Kd ->Ht) --> Heart Fire ? Blood xu ? (assume that Liv Blood is not housing Shen) Sp/St xu and/or LI Heat Liv Qi Stag (-->Ht Fire/St Fire) early stage Yang xu because of Cold signs (????) please comment on this I focussed my first Tx on: Nourishing Yin, Blood and Fluids, Stopping sweat, Calm Shen, Mildly Move and Tonify constrained Qi, Drain HT and St Fire, Ton. Sp. and promote sleep Prescription: Sheng di ?10 Shu di ?10 Zhi mu ?5 Suan zao ren ?15 Dan shen ?12 He huan hua ?12 Fu shen ?12 Wu Wei zi ?10 Fu xiao mai ?8 Xi yang shen ?5 Huang lian 9 Zhi gan cao ?5 Sheng jiang ?2 slices Advice given so far: eat yin nourishing foods, stay off alcohol, coffee and spices. Try meditation which he has already started. Would be grateful for any comments on my diagnosis and prescription especially. Thanks, SJ --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 17:57:46 -0800 From: Al Stone Organization: beyondwellbeing.com To: herb-students@gancao.net Subject: Re: [Herb-students] chronic insomnia case Reply-To: herb-students@gancao.net SJeevanjee@aol.com wrote: > > Hello fellow students, > > I am so happy to see a forum like this - thanks so much Al. ?Since I am a newly qualified acupuncturist who has only recently started studying herbs, it would be great if any of you could help me out with a precription for a chronic insomnia case. > > * Male, 40 yrs, Insomnia since age 10 or earlier. (((((Al sez: That already leans us toward a deficiency syndrome since it is a chronic issue. ?The deficiencies that are commonly considered a potential cause for insomnia include: Heart Blood and Spleen Qi Xu Heart and Kidney Yin Xu (and the other names such as kidney and heart not communicating) Heart and Gall Bladder Qi Xu Liver yin and Blood deficiency.))))) ?Tall, slightly thin, good humoured. ?Slightly flushed face, balding in GB area, some sweat on forehead. ?Has very responsible job, but does not seem stressed by it. ?Lost little finger in fire work accident when young. (((Blood deficiency, I'd expect a pale face, not flushed. I'm leaning toward the Yin Xu))) > Sleep s/s: > * gets to sleep easily but wakes about every 45 mins (wide awake and restless) and sleeps best between 6.30-9am. ?NEVER wakes rested. > * night sweats, alternating hot and cold sensations both day and night - "no temperature regulation" ?- negative result from thyroid test. > * vivid dreams: about 1 every 2-3 months ((((Night sweats= Yin xu or damp heat. I guess on rare occassions it could be Blood xu too. ?Vivid dreams says heat in the heart, though we don't know if that's excessive or deficient in nature.)))) > Secondary s/s: > * must eat regulary (8am/12am/6pm) or he suffers "sharp, stabbing cramps and loose stools" in the large intestine area (although he says they are in his Stomach). ? > * dark scanty urine 1 time/day (((Yin xu or heat))) > * very thirsty all the time (but drinks coffee and coke) (((Yin xu or thirst due to the coffee which is drying and coke which is weird too))) > * tight chest always (((Qi stagnation likely, could be phegm accumulation too.)))) > * hot flushes ((((Yin xu likely))) > * poor concentration and memory (((Yin xu leading to a possible Jing Xu)))) > * used to like cold drinks, but recently prefers warm drinks (((Yin xu leading to Yang or Qi or Jing xu, or perhaps has discovered the pleasures of Starbucks. ha ha))) > * feels "cold all the time" ((( Based on previous findings, I don't know if he really knows what his temperature feels like))) > * feels "low" during Fall > > Family history: > * father had St ulcers and died at 60 of CHD > * brother has St ulcers but no stress > > Pulse = superficial, surging (=full and struggling esp. on right side), rapid (((Yin Xu possible)))) > Tongue = thin body, red, no coat, central crack, slight deviation to left (((Yin Xu with slight Liver Yin Xu too)))) > BP: 110/70 mmHg > > Western meds: Ambien .15mg, Imprimine (SSRI) .25mg. ?He has been taking these for 1.5 years and says they improve his sleep by about 20-30%. ?So far, he has noticed a dry mouth and occipital headaches in the morning which he thinks are side effects of the meds. ((( Possibly aggravated by the underlying yin xu))) > > TCM Dx: ? > Yin xu-Heat ?(Kd ->Ht) --> Heart Fire (((Or false heat going to the heart, if that's what you meant))) > ? Blood xu ? (assume that Liv Blood is not housing Shen) ((((I don't see the Blood xu. It would be nice to see a pale tongue or dry eyes or brittle nails or some other liver signs or Blood xu signs.))) > Sp/St xu and/or LI Heat > Liv Qi Stag (-->Ht Fire/St Fire) > early stage Yang xu because of Cold signs (????) please comment on this (((Yeah, this is possible, I'm in agreeement, not sure though.))) > I focussed my first Tx on: > Nourishing Yin, Blood and Fluids, Stopping sweat, Calm Shen, Mildly Move and Tonify constrained Qi, Drain HT and St Fire, Ton. Sp. and promote sleep > > Prescription: (((I'd start out with simply Tian Wang Bu Xin Dan and perhaps modify it a bit to make sure that it is assimilated okay if there are some Spleen/Stomach issues suspected. ))) > > Sheng di ?10 (in twbxd) > Shu di ?10 > Zhi mu ?5 > Suan zao ren ?15 (in twbxd) > Dan shen ?12 ?(in twbxd) > He huan hua ?12 > Fu shen ?12 > Wu Wei zi ?10 ?(in twbxd) > Fu xiao mai ?8 > Xi yang shen ?5 > Huang lian 9 > Zhi gan cao ?5 > Sheng jiang ?2 slices (((Everything here looks good to me, but I have to admit that my level of herbal expertise isn't quite a the point where I would be able to really critique this formula, I just like to start out with the old reliables such as Tian Wang Bu Xin Dan, and see what happens with the patient after a month or so.))) > Advice given so far: eat yin nourishing foods, stay off alcohol, coffee and spices. Try meditation which he has already started. (((Yeah, those warm drying foods can be a problem. If you have a chance to pick up the Clinical Handbook of Internal Medicine, but Maclean and Lyttleton, you can get some on-going feedback for cases such as this. It is the (two volume set) book that I use the most. There's a third volume on its way too.))) -- Al Stone L.Ac. http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. --__--__-- _ From yiddishtangofever at shaw.ca Sat Dec 28 16:33:19 2002 From: yiddishtangofever at shaw.ca (zoe sandell) Date: Tue Jun 22 08:08:59 2004 Subject: [Herb-students] chronic insomnia case References: <4ACB4F1E.63150DB0.0BF9F5C4@aol.com> Message-ID: <001501c2aeb8$bda4b9e0$d81c4518@gv.shawcable.net> Hi- I'm not regularily on the list but I have to comment on how effective I have found Tian wan bu xin dan. (For one if my patients that has also had chronic insomnia - Heart & Kidney miscommunication with heart fire/yin xu. . . ) That's all. . . Zoe ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, December 22, 2002 8:11 PM Subject: [Herb-students] chronic insomnia case > Thanks alot Al. It really helps to discuss this over with someone. I too thought of giving him Tian Wang Bu Xin Dan, but I felt that maybe it had too many yin tonics for someone whose digestion seemed a bit dodgy. I'll see how he responds to my formula and if you would like me to, I'll let you know how it goes. Btw, I also like the Maclean and Lyttleton books. > > Thx, SJ > From kmac at primus.com.au Sun Dec 1 19:29:26 2002 From: kmac at primus.com.au (Karl MacPherson) Date: Tue Aug 10 07:18:28 2004 Subject: [Herb-students] RE: Need input on this case Message-ID: <000801c29999$df5c2840$68db32d2@b2o8x1> This is my first patient, I am third year herb student. Her tongue and pulse do not reflect her symptoms. She is an asthmatic - for approx 8yrs. Her main complaint is she recently stopped taking her medication flexitide. For three months now little red lumps have appeared all over her face. Initially they were itchy however that has stopped now she is on anti-inflammatory cream. The dots are still slightly red and are under the skin. She has no phelgm and no dry throat, no SOB or tight chest she drinks about 1 litre per day of water B/M - once day and formed Urination- 8-9 times a day Sleep - sleeps well, does not wake up at night sweat- doesn't really sweet that much appetite- big appetite, eats alot constantly, is always hungry She tends to feel the cold very easily Tongue - red all over, with a red patch in the kidney area, sl red dots raised, with a slight yellow coating in the kidney area. She has a verticle crack down the middle of spleen and stomach area. Her tongue is short and flabby and is moist. Her lung area has some red dots. P- Overall her left side was very hard to find- very deep, faint and slightly slippery overall it was very weak. Her right side was wiry. With this diagnosis flexitide can suppress lung heat, because she has stopped taking it prehaps the suppressed heat from the lung has risen upwards, Lungs associated with UJ. However her pulse was not rapid it was slow. What I am thinking is that there is exhisting stomach and lung heat, however overall she is yang Xu (Kidney). Due to her feeling the cold and the slow pulse. I would have expected her urine to be slightly yellow as this is reflected in the tongue. Do asthmatics ly have slow pulses? There is definetly damp present in the body. Can I please have your comments on what you think?? In regards to treatment principle if there is cold present in the body, however latent heat in the lungs and stomach the prescription has to be carefully prepared. What do you think?? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://five.pairlist.net/pipermail/tcm-students/attachments/20021202/8c1a2d40/attachment.html From alstone at beyondwellbeing.com Mon Dec 2 19:50:17 2002 From: alstone at beyondwellbeing.com (Al Stone) Date: Tue Aug 10 07:18:28 2004 Subject: [Herb-students] RE: Need input on this case References: <000801c29999$df5c2840$68db32d2@b2o8x1> Message-ID: <3DEBFFCC.52C93F54@beyondwellbeing.com> > Karl MacPherson wrote: > > This is my first patient, I am third year herb student. > Her tongue and pulse do not reflect her symptoms. > > She is an asthmatic - for approx 8yrs. Her main complaint is she > recently stopped taking her medication flexitide. For three months > now little red lumps have appeared all over her face. Initially they > were itchy however that has stopped now she is on anti-inflammatory > cream. The dots are still slightly red and are under the skin. Okay, just to be clear. The cheif complaint is the dermatological issues, right? Let's start out there, consider all the possible diagnosis that could apply and then use the remaining information to make a diagnosis... Red means heat. Itchy means wind. Wind in the skin often arises in the wake of a Blood deficiency. That doesn't necessarily mean a systemic Liver Blood type deficiency, but more likely is a Blood deficiency only local to the location of the red spots. Probably the mechanism at play here is that there is some heat under the skin and this heat is damaging the blood in the immediate area, giving rise to the opportunity for wind to get lodged there and cause the itching. The anti-inflammatory cream is likely removing the heat in its own way and hence addressing the itchiness. Assuming that this is what is happening, we might use this information to recognize that the red spots are some sort of inflammation which generally implies heat. Let's check out the other signs and symptoms to see what's up. > appetite- big appetite, eats alot constantly, is always hungry Okay, this could be an issue of Stomach Fire, and that could potentially get into the Stomach channel, ascending to the face, specifically the jaw line. > She tends to feel the cold very easily Internal cold? Yang deficiency? Neither explain red spots on the face. > Tongue - red all over, with a red patch in the kidney area, sl red > dots raised, with a slight yellow coating in the kidney area. Okay, red means heat. The slightly yellow coating in the rear could be a lower jiao issue, or a stomach issue. > She has > a verticle crack down the middle of spleen and stomach area. Her > tongue is short and flabby and is moist. Her lung area has some red > dots. Lung heat could produce some red spots on the tongue too. Lungs rule the skin. > P- Overall her left side was very hard to find- very deep, faint and > slightly slippery overall it was very weak. Her right side was wiry. > > With this diagnosis flexitide can suppress lung heat, because she has > stopped taking it prehaps the suppressed heat from the lung has risen > upwards, Lungs associated with UJ. However her pulse was not rapid it > was slow. Is she an athlete? > What I am thinking is that there is exhisting stomach and > lung heat, however overall she is yang Xu (Kidney). Due to her feeling > the cold and the slow pulse. I would have expected her urine to be > slightly yellow as this is reflected in the tongue. Do asthmatics ly > have slow pulses? Sure, if they're Yang Xu. > There is definetly damp present in the body. Can I > please have your comments on what you think?? In regards to > treatment principle If there was damp poping out of these lesions, I'd expect to see some exudate, but I didn't hear about that. > if there is cold present in the body, however latent heat in the lungs > and stomach the prescription has to be carefully prepared. What do > you think?? I think you'll need to be careful, yes. I assume you have good supervisor. One thing you can do is simply give your patient whatever you think you should for the Lung and Stomach heat, but tell them what to look out for in case of damage to the Kidney Yang such as diarrhea or worsening sensitivity to the cold, in which case you can modify the formula or have them lower the dosage. Hope that helps. -al. -- Al Stone L.Ac. http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. From erpardo at mi.madritel.es Tue Dec 3 04:54:26 2002 From: erpardo at mi.madritel.es (Susan rod) Date: Tue Aug 10 07:18:28 2004 Subject: [Herb-students] RE: Need input on this case References: <000801c29999$df5c2840$68db32d2@b2o8x1> <3DEBFFCC.52C93F54@beyondwellbeing.com> Message-ID: <000a01c29ab1$f6ff4a90$ee3625d5@susan13aj2v086> Al: I'm a first-year TCM student .... just was interested to ask you why you thought to ask if the patient in question was an athlete ..... I could understand the rest of your reasonings (great chance to follow along the reasoning of someone who know the ropes) .... but could not relate the athlete aspect. Could you explain just a little bit. Thanks. Susan R. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Al Stone" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 1:50 AM Subject: Re: [Herb-students] RE: Need input on this case > > > > Karl MacPherson wrote: > > > > This is my first patient, I am third year herb student. > > Her tongue and pulse do not reflect her symptoms. > > > > She is an asthmatic - for approx 8yrs. Her main complaint is she > > recently stopped taking her medication flexitide. For three months > > now little red lumps have appeared all over her face. Initially they > > were itchy however that has stopped now she is on anti-inflammatory > > cream. The dots are still slightly red and are under the skin. > > Okay, just to be clear. The cheif complaint is the dermatological > issues, right? Let's start out there, consider all the possible > diagnosis that could apply and then use the remaining information to > make a diagnosis... > > Red means heat. Itchy means wind. Wind in the skin often arises in the > wake of a Blood deficiency. That doesn't necessarily mean a systemic > Liver Blood type deficiency, but more likely is a Blood deficiency only > local to the location of the red spots. Probably the mechanism at play > here is that there is some heat under the skin and this heat is damaging > the blood in the immediate area, giving rise to the opportunity for wind > to get lodged there and cause the itching. The anti-inflammatory cream > is likely removing the heat in its own way and hence addressing the itchiness. > > Assuming that this is what is happening, we might use this information > to recognize that the red spots are some sort of inflammation which > generally implies heat. Let's check out the other signs and symptoms to > see what's up. > > > appetite- big appetite, eats alot constantly, is always hungry > > Okay, this could be an issue of Stomach Fire, and that could potentially > get into the Stomach channel, ascending to the face, specifically the > jaw line. > > > She tends to feel the cold very easily > > Internal cold? Yang deficiency? Neither explain red spots on the face. > > > Tongue - red all over, with a red patch in the kidney area, sl red > > dots raised, with a slight yellow coating in the kidney area. > > Okay, red means heat. The slightly yellow coating in the rear could be > a lower jiao issue, or a stomach issue. > > > She has > > a verticle crack down the middle of spleen and stomach area. Her > > tongue is short and flabby and is moist. Her lung area has some red > > dots. > > Lung heat could produce some red spots on the tongue too. Lungs rule the skin. > > > P- Overall her left side was very hard to find- very deep, faint and > > slightly slippery overall it was very weak. Her right side was wiry. > > > > With this diagnosis flexitide can suppress lung heat, because she has > > stopped taking it prehaps the suppressed heat from the lung has risen > > upwards, Lungs associated with UJ. However her pulse was not rapid it > > was slow. > > Is she an athlete? > > > What I am thinking is that there is exhisting stomach and > > lung heat, however overall she is yang Xu (Kidney). Due to her feeling > > the cold and the slow pulse. I would have expected her urine to be > > slightly yellow as this is reflected in the tongue. Do asthmatics ly > > have slow pulses? > > Sure, if they're Yang Xu. > > > There is definetly damp present in the body. Can I > > please have your comments on what you think?? In regards to > > treatment principle > > If there was damp poping out of these lesions, I'd expect to see some > exudate, but I didn't hear about that. > > > if there is cold present in the body, however latent heat in the lungs > > and stomach the prescription has to be carefully prepared. What do > > you think?? > > I think you'll need to be careful, yes. I assume you have good > supervisor. > > One thing you can do is simply give your patient whatever you think you > should for the Lung and Stomach heat, but tell them what to look out for > in case of damage to the Kidney Yang such as diarrhea or worsening > sensitivity to the cold, in which case you can modify the formula or > have them lower the dosage. > > Hope that helps. > > -al. > > -- > Al Stone L.Ac. > > http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com > > Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. > > _______________________________________________ > New from Gancao.net: > Acublog: reinterpreting biomedical research through the eyes of traditional Chinese medicine. > http://gancao.net/weblogs/acublog.cgi > > > Herb-students mailing list > Herb-students@gancao.net > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/herb-students From KenRosenb at aol.com Tue Dec 3 00:32:50 2002 From: KenRosenb at aol.com (KenRosenb@aol.com) Date: Tue Aug 10 07:18:28 2004 Subject: [Herb-students] RE: Need input on this case Message-ID: First let me say that I am a student, meaning my clinic experience is almost nonexistent, However. In My TCM Internal Medicine class, Our teacher said that slight yellow fur on the tongue can actually happen with a lower jiao yang deficiency. The cold is deep in the lower jiao, forcing heat to go up to the lungs. I don't exactly understand the patho-mechanism, but I would be happy to ask my teacher any questions for you. Best of Luck, Ken -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://five.pairlist.net/pipermail/tcm-students/attachments/20021203/1766e7b9/attachment.html From taiqi at taiqi.com Tue Dec 3 11:30:43 2002 From: taiqi at taiqi.com (douglas) Date: Tue Aug 10 07:18:28 2004 Subject: [Herb-students] skin References: <000801c29999$df5c2840$68db32d2@b2o8x1> <3DEBFFCC.52C93F54@beyondwellbeing.com> <000a01c29ab1$f6ff4a90$ee3625d5@susan13aj2v086> Message-ID: <3DECDC32.DF350491@taiqi.com> > I'll take a stab at this. I assume that Al asks about the athlete part because they often have slow pulses. > but could not relate the > athlete aspect. Could you explain just a little bit. Thanks. Susan R. > >From what I see of the discussion, one has to be careful to distinquish the skin condition from the overall condition. Although not exactly two seperate things a treatment plan can address heat in the skin with cool herbs while being careful of not over doing it and making the overall condition colder. Although wind has to have a component of deficiency (think of Qi as a wall, wind can only enter where there are holes in it), I would emphasize her condition as heat in the blood rather than stressing the blood deficiency. I also don't (to the horror of my collegues) see itchiness as defining wind but rather the issue of whether it moves around the body or not. In this case we are getting lumps in the same place which suggests dampness as opposed to the blood deficiency. I believe (and can't back it up by a book) that the itchiness is in this case the element of toxicity in the blood. Flexitide (see below for the generic drug) is a corticosteroid. Especially if she was using it as a spray, it may have been acting to knock down the acne/skin condition that she would "normally" have. The questions I would have is how much pus is involved under the redness (amount of dampness) and if yellow or not, how are her bowel movements?, which can aggrevate the skin if constipated and finally and most importantly what kind of food is she eating? Hot spicy are not good obviously in this case. I'm going to make a guess at a formula (for entertainment purposes only): Ju Hua, Jin Yin Hua, Lian Qiao, Zi Cao, Zi Hua di Ding, Shi Hu, Bai Zhu, Fu Ling Pi, Chi Shao, Ku Shen, Yi Yi Ren, Dang Gui, Bai Shao and Gan Cao. As you see it has the elements of blood that Al was defining while also herbs for the exterior (but not really wind herbs per se). The other questions I have are about her period and if the skin changes with it and if she is on the pill. doug Fluticasone propionate is a synthetic corticosteroid with the chemical name of S-fluoromethyl 6a,9a-difluoro-11b-hydroxy-16a-methyl-3-oxo-17a-propionyloxyandrosta -1, 4-diene-17b-carbothioate. Fluticasone propionate nasal spray 50 mg is an aqueous suspension of microfine fluticasone propionate for topical administration to the nasal mucosa by means of a metering, atomizing spray pump. Flonase nasal spray also contains microcrystalline cellulose and carboxymethylcellulose sodium, dextrose, 0.02% w/w benzalkonium chloride, polysorbate 80, and 0.25% w/w phenylethyl alcohol, and has a pH between 5 and 7. > > > > She is an asthmatic - for approx 8yrs. Her main complaint is she > > > recently stopped taking her medication flexitide. For three months > > > now little red lumps have appeared all over her face. Initially they > > > were itchy however that has stopped now she is on anti-inflammatory > > > cream. The dots are still slightly red and are under the skin. > > > > Red means heat. Itchy means wind. Wind in the skin often arises in the > > wake of a Blood deficiency. > > > > > > > She tends to feel the cold very easily > > > > Internal cold? Yang deficiency? Neither explain red spots on the face. > > > > > She has > > > a verticle crack down the middle of spleen and stomach area. Her > > > tongue is short and flabby and is moist. Her lung area has some red > > > dots. > > > > Lung heat could produce some red spots on the tongue too. Lungs rule the > skin. > > > > > Sure, if they're Yang Xu. > > > > > From alstone at beyondwellbeing.com Tue Dec 3 13:07:09 2002 From: alstone at beyondwellbeing.com (Al Stone) Date: Tue Aug 10 07:18:28 2004 Subject: [Herb-students] RE: Need input on this case References: Message-ID: <3DECF2CC.8B7DCD62@beyondwellbeing.com> >>> First let me say that I am a student, meaning my clinic experience is almost nonexistent, However. In My TCM Internal Medicine class, Our teacher said that slight yellow fur on the tongue can actually happen with a lower jiao yang deficiency. The cold is deep in the lower jiao, forcing heat to go up to the lungs. I don't exactly understand the patho-mechanism, but I would be happy to ask my teacher any questions for you. Best of Luck, Ken<<< You know, that yellow coating in the rear of the tongue, I practically ignore it at times. I find that it is common and can indicate a little gunk in the Large Intestine too. It doesn't always have to indicate a really weird pathology. Another diagnostic paradigm says that the rear of the tongue pertains to the lower third of the stomach too. Something to think about there too especially in regards to this dermatology case. -- Al Stone L.Ac. http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. From alstone at beyondwellbeing.com Tue Dec 3 13:13:21 2002 From: alstone at beyondwellbeing.com (Al Stone) Date: Tue Aug 10 07:18:28 2004 Subject: [Herb-students] RE: Need input on this case References: <000801c29999$df5c2840$68db32d2@b2o8x1> <3DEBFFCC.52C93F54@beyondwellbeing.com> <000a01c29ab1$f6ff4a90$ee3625d5@susan13aj2v086> Message-ID: <3DECF441.58D8B61@beyondwellbeing.com> Athletes, or persons who work out a lot tend to have really healthy hearts with a very efficient cardiac output, and so the heart doesn't have to beat as quickly. So, people in very good physical condition can develop a slow pulse. In such a case it would not indicate a pathology. This pulse is sometimes called the "athletic pulse". -al. Susan rod wrote: > > Al: I'm a first-year TCM student .... just was interested to ask you why you > thought to ask if the patient in question was an athlete ..... I could > understand the rest of your reasonings (great chance to follow along the > reasoning of someone who know the ropes) .... but could not relate the > athlete aspect. Could you explain just a little bit. Thanks. Susan R. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Al Stone" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 1:50 AM > Subject: Re: [Herb-students] RE: Need input on this case > > > > > > > > Karl MacPherson wrote: > > > > > > This is my first patient, I am third year herb student. > > > Her tongue and pulse do not reflect her symptoms. > > > > > > She is an asthmatic - for approx 8yrs. Her main complaint is she > > > recently stopped taking her medication flexitide. For three months > > > now little red lumps have appeared all over her face. Initially they > > > were itchy however that has stopped now she is on anti-inflammatory > > > cream. The dots are still slightly red and are under the skin. > > > > Okay, just to be clear. The cheif complaint is the dermatological > > issues, right? Let's start out there, consider all the possible > > diagnosis that could apply and then use the remaining information to > > make a diagnosis... > > > > Red means heat. Itchy means wind. Wind in the skin often arises in the > > wake of a Blood deficiency. That doesn't necessarily mean a systemic > > Liver Blood type deficiency, but more likely is a Blood deficiency only > > local to the location of the red spots. Probably the mechanism at play > > here is that there is some heat under the skin and this heat is damaging > > the blood in the immediate area, giving rise to the opportunity for wind > > to get lodged there and cause the itching. The anti-inflammatory cream > > is likely removing the heat in its own way and hence addressing the > itchiness. > > > > Assuming that this is what is happening, we might use this information > > to recognize that the red spots are some sort of inflammation which > > generally implies heat. Let's check out the other signs and symptoms to > > see what's up. > > > > > appetite- big appetite, eats alot constantly, is always hungry > > > > Okay, this could be an issue of Stomach Fire, and that could potentially > > get into the Stomach channel, ascending to the face, specifically the > > jaw line. > > > > > She tends to feel the cold very easily > > > > Internal cold? Yang deficiency? Neither explain red spots on the face. > > > > > Tongue - red all over, with a red patch in the kidney area, sl red > > > dots raised, with a slight yellow coating in the kidney area. > > > > Okay, red means heat. The slightly yellow coating in the rear could be > > a lower jiao issue, or a stomach issue. > > > > > She has > > > a verticle crack down the middle of spleen and stomach area. Her > > > tongue is short and flabby and is moist. Her lung area has some red > > > dots. > > > > Lung heat could produce some red spots on the tongue too. Lungs rule the > skin. > > > > > P- Overall her left side was very hard to find- very deep, faint and > > > slightly slippery overall it was very weak. Her right side was wiry. > > > > > > With this diagnosis flexitide can suppress lung heat, because she has > > > stopped taking it prehaps the suppressed heat from the lung has risen > > > upwards, Lungs associated with UJ. However her pulse was not rapid it > > > was slow. > > > > Is she an athlete? > > > > > What I am thinking is that there is exhisting stomach and > > > lung heat, however overall she is yang Xu (Kidney). Due to her feeling > > > the cold and the slow pulse. I would have expected her urine to be > > > slightly yellow as this is reflected in the tongue. Do asthmatics ly > > > have slow pulses? > > > > Sure, if they're Yang Xu. > > > > > There is definetly damp present in the body. Can I > > > please have your comments on what you think?? In regards to > > > treatment principle > > > > If there was damp poping out of these lesions, I'd expect to see some > > exudate, but I didn't hear about that. > > > > > if there is cold present in the body, however latent heat in the lungs > > > and stomach the prescription has to be carefully prepared. What do > > > you think?? > > > > I think you'll need to be careful, yes. I assume you have good > > supervisor. > > > > One thing you can do is simply give your patient whatever you think you > > should for the Lung and Stomach heat, but tell them what to look out for > > in case of damage to the Kidney Yang such as diarrhea or worsening > > sensitivity to the cold, in which case you can modify the formula or > > have them lower the dosage. > > > > Hope that helps. > > > > -al. > > > > -- > > Al Stone L.Ac. > > > > http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com > > > > Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New from Gancao.net: > > Acublog: reinterpreting biomedical research through the eyes of > traditional Chinese medicine. > > http://gancao.net/weblogs/acublog.cgi > > > > > > Herb-students mailing list > > Herb-students@gancao.net > > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/herb-students > > _______________________________________________ > New from Gancao.net: > Acublog: reinterpreting biomedical research through the eyes of traditional Chinese medicine. > http://gancao.net/weblogs/acublog.cgi > > Herb-students mailing list > Herb-students@gancao.net > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/herb-students -- Al Stone L.Ac. http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. From alstone at beyondwellbeing.com Tue Dec 3 13:32:31 2002 From: alstone at beyondwellbeing.com (Al Stone) Date: Tue Aug 10 07:18:28 2004 Subject: [Herb-students] skin References: <000801c29999$df5c2840$68db32d2@b2o8x1> <3DEBFFCC.52C93F54@beyondwellbeing.com> <000a01c29ab1$f6ff4a90$ee3625d5@susan13aj2v086> <3DECDC32.DF350491@taiqi.com> Message-ID: <3DECF8BE.BEB88DB2@beyondwellbeing.com> douglas wrote: > I believe (and can't back it up by a book) that the itchiness is in this case the element of > toxicity in the blood. I'm cool with blood heat or heat toxin, but the itchiness is due to the heat damaging the blood in the *local area only*. The heat damages the blood in the centemeter surrounding the lesion only. This was a pathomechanism presented by Dr. Gu at Emperor's college who specialized in dermatology in China, but unfortunately not the English language. ; ) -- Al Stone L.Ac. http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. From metaphyzik at iprimus.com.au Tue Dec 3 16:58:52 2002 From: metaphyzik at iprimus.com.au (bec) Date: Tue Aug 10 07:18:28 2004 Subject: [Herb-students] herb-drug interactions Message-ID: <3DED291C.3020406@iprimus.com.au> Hi folks. I have a patient who has been taking anti-depressants for most of her adult life. She is 42 years old and is currently taking Effexor (an SSRI), Sotocor (a beta-blocker for heart palpitations), Valium (to get to sleep and to relax), and Dexamphetamine (for Bi-polar disorder). She has many symptoms that imply she has Yin deficiency (night sweats, dry mouth, dry, itchy skin & scalp, dark yellow scanty urine) and her GP has just given her intravenous iron supplements because she was anaemic. The anaemia has happened before, a year ago but recurred about a month ago. (this implies Blood deficiency, no?) She has been allergic to bananas since she was a child but eats one every morning. They used to make her break out in "hives" (itchy lumps). She has had huge problems with itchy skin. Sores that began as pimples appear on her hands, forearms, feet and lower legs, and also on her stomach. She scratches the sores and they break open and eventually heal but leave dark purple scars. Her scalp developed scabby patches along the Du Mai up to Bai Hui but mostly at the top of her spine. These were extremely itchy and most prominent about a year ago, just before she stopped taking dexamphetamine. She has recently (3 weeks ago) begun taking it again and the scabs have reappeared, although this time they are not itchy. I would like to give her a blood-heat clearing formula such as Wu Wei Xiao Dui Yin, and perhaps later on concentrate on nourishing Yin and clearing organ heat. I was wondering if anyone had any knowledge of this formula in relation to Western pharmaceuticals - that is, how it is likely to react. I know that beta-blockers are difficult drugs to work with and also that half the problems she is having are related to the drugs. The only problem is that she doesn't seem to think she can function without the dexamphetamine, and the beta-blockers stop her having heart murmurs which have happened several times over the past year. any help would be appreciated. bec From ricardo_javier at hotmail.com Wed Dec 4 11:17:35 2002 From: ricardo_javier at hotmail.com (Ricardo Ramírez) Date: Tue Aug 10 07:18:28 2004 Subject: [Herb-students] Re: Herb-students digest, Vol 1 #38 - 4 msgs Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://five.pairlist.net/pipermail/tcm-students/attachments/20021204/a9e3d551/attachment.html From taiqi at taiqi.com Tue Dec 3 19:20:57 2002 From: taiqi at taiqi.com (douglas) Date: Tue Aug 10 07:18:28 2004 Subject: [Herb-students] skin References: <000801c29999$df5c2840$68db32d2@b2o8x1> <3DEBFFCC.52C93F54@beyondwellbeing.com> <000a01c29ab1$f6ff4a90$ee3625d5@susan13aj2v086> <3DECDC32.DF350491@taiqi.com> <3DECF8BE.BEB88DB2@beyondwellbeing.com> Message-ID: <3DED4A68.CE363565@taiqi.com> I think that's an important distinction you've made, translated verbatim obviously from dear Old Doctor Gu. ;-) The reason I shy away from wind as a global diagnosis is that giving wind scattering herbs might also scatter the disease all over the body. doug Al Stone wrote: > douglas wrote: > > > I believe (and can't back it up by a book) that the itchiness is in this case the element of > > toxicity in the blood. > > I'm cool with blood heat or heat toxin, but the itchiness is due to the > heat damaging the blood in the *local area only*. The heat damages the > blood in the centemeter surrounding the lesion only. This was a > pathomechanism presented by Dr. Gu at Emperor's college who specialized > in dermatology in China, but unfortunately not the English language. ; ) > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://five.pairlist.net/pipermail/tcm-students/attachments/20021203/2200ce53/attachment.html From phiangel at ihug.co.nz Wed Dec 4 22:23:36 2002 From: phiangel at ihug.co.nz (phiangel) Date: Tue Aug 10 07:18:28 2004 Subject: [Herb-students] slow pulse = "healthy" heart?? References: <20021204162014.55840536DE@pairlist.net> Message-ID: <3DEEC6B8.48255D3C@ihug.co.nz> > I agree with you Al re: a slow pulse can be an "athletic pulse", however i have a suspiscion that there may be underlying pathlogy within this.... An "Athletic Heart" after all is carrying a large amount of scar tissue, and eventhough the heart appears to be operating more efficently (ie: increased cardiac output....), there are many questions i have regarding this being "healthy" eg: personal observation of "athletes" being obsessive or emotionally agitated (shen disturbance via heart pathology), either being "all go" or "flat" (ie: yang qi depletion)....etc Also, I remember a chinese saying (or something) about how we have only a fixed number of heart beats and t/f overly strenuous exercise is not recommended b/c the heartbeats get used up.... this may explain why the pulse is slow too? (yang depletion?) Anyway that idea lead me to think more about the heartbeat and then i discovered alot of supposedly very fit (healthy?) athletes ended up dying or suffering from heart pathologies.... (from a Western Medical Science perspective) makes me reassess what i thought was "good" for me re: exercise.... and if a "healthy" heart does in fact beat slowly....? to a degree, i think not.... brendon > > From: Al Stone > Reply-To: herb-students@gancao.net > > Athletes, or persons who work out a lot tend to have really healthy > hearts with a very efficient cardiac output, and so the heart doesn't > have to beat as quickly. So, people in very good physical condition > can develop a slow pulse. In such a case it would not indicate a > pathology. > > This pulse is sometimes called the "athletic pulse". > > -al. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://five.pairlist.net/pipermail/tcm-students/attachments/20021205/c9dd0152/attachment.html From alstone at beyondwellbeing.com Thu Dec 5 13:12:44 2002 From: alstone at beyondwellbeing.com (Al Stone) Date: Tue Aug 10 07:18:28 2004 Subject: [Herb-students] skin References: <000801c29999$df5c2840$68db32d2@b2o8x1> <3DEBFFCC.52C93F54@beyondwellbeing.com> <000a01c29ab1$f6ff4a90$ee3625d5@susan13aj2v086> <3DECDC32.DF350491@taiqi.com> <3DECF8BE.BEB88DB2@beyondwellbeing.com> <3DED4A68.CE363565@taiqi.com> Message-ID: <3DEF971B.25BEBB50@beyondwellbeing.com> Yeah, I would think that the treatment principle is not so much to expel wind but to address either blood level heat or heat toxin. Besides, there is a saying in TCM. "to treat wind, you must treat the blood". In this case, wind would mean skin level wind, as opposed to wind-heat or wind-cold in the lungs. -al. douglas wrote: > > I think that's an important distinction you've made, translated > verbatim obviously from dear Old Doctor Gu. ;-) > The reason I shy away from wind as a global diagnosis is that giving > wind scattering herbs might also scatter the disease all over the > body. > doug > > Al Stone wrote: > > > douglas wrote: > > > > > I believe (and can't back it up by a book) that the itchiness is > > in this case the element of > > > toxicity in the blood. > > > > I'm cool with blood heat or heat toxin, but the itchiness is due to > > the > > heat damaging the blood in the *local area only*. The heat damages > > the > > blood in the centemeter surrounding the lesion only. This was a > > pathomechanism presented by Dr. Gu at Emperor's college who > > specialized > > in dermatology in China, but unfortunately not the English language. > > ; ) > > -- Al Stone L.Ac. http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. From amandawaaldyk147 at hotmail.com Fri Dec 6 05:29:55 2002 From: amandawaaldyk147 at hotmail.com (mans .) Date: Tue Aug 10 07:18:28 2004 Subject: [Herb-students] Re: Herb-students digest, Vol 1 #40 - 2 msgs Message-ID: Thank-you to everyone who has responded to my case study. Your assistance and input as helped me alot. I have not had a chance to reach my email until two nights ago, thus my response now- have been extremely busy. I had already prescribed herbs to her before I had a chance to email you. I diagnosed her as having static heat in the lung and stomach. I prescribed. Long Li ye 12g , Pi Pa Ye 12g, Zi Wan 12g, Fang Feng 12g, Sang Ye 12g, Chen Pi 6g, Fu Ling 12g, Sheng Di 12g, Chi Shao 9g, Xing Ren 9g. I haven't got my book with me there we a couple of other herbs. i saw her 2nite her complexion has cleared up- not completely. She said her lungs feel stronger and her pulse on her right side was more pronounced. It had strength to it. Her pulse was slightly faster than previously. Her face still had bumps yet they were not as red. THey had surfaced to the skin. I am going to change the formula this week. As her liver pulse was rapid and wiry. THANK_YOU EVERYBODY for all YOURE HELP!!!! >From: herb-students-request@gancao.net >Reply-To: herb-students@gancao.net >To: herb-students@gancao.net >Subject: Herb-students digest, Vol 1 #40 - 2 msgs >Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 12:19:40 -0500 (EST) > >Send Herb-students mailing list submissions to > herb-students@gancao.net > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/herb-students >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > herb-students-request@gancao.net > >You can reach the person managing the list at > herb-students-admin@gancao.net > >When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >than "Re: Contents of Herb-students digest..." > > >Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: skin (douglas) > 2. slow pulse = "healthy" heart?? (phiangel) > >--__--__-- > >Message: 1 >Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 16:20:57 -0800 >From: douglas >To: herb-students@gancao.net >Subject: Re: [Herb-students] skin >Reply-To: herb-students@gancao.net > > >--------------D285EAAF7427520228DEA7D2 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; >x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >I think that's an important distinction you've made, translated verbatim >obviously from dear Old >Doctor Gu. ;-) >The reason I shy away from wind as a global diagnosis is that giving wind >scattering herbs might >also scatter the disease all over the body. >doug > >Al Stone wrote: > > > douglas wrote: > > > > > I believe (and can't back it up by a book) that the itchiness is in >this case the element of > > > toxicity in the blood. > > > > I'm cool with blood heat or heat toxin, but the itchiness is due to the > > heat damaging the blood in the *local area only*. The heat damages the > > blood in the centemeter surrounding the lesion only. This was a > > pathomechanism presented by Dr. Gu at Emperor's college who specialized > > in dermatology in China, but unfortunately not the English language. ; ) > > > >--------------D285EAAF7427520228DEA7D2 >Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > >I think that's an important distinction you've made, translated verbatim >obviously from dear Old Doctor Gu. ;-) >
The reason I shy away from wind as a global diagnosis is that giving >wind scattering herbs might also scatter the disease all over the body. >
doug >

Al Stone wrote: >

douglas wrote: >

> I believe (and can't back it up by a book) that the itchiness is in >this case the element of >
> toxicity in the blood. >

I'm cool with blood heat or heat toxin, but the itchiness is due to >the >
heat damaging the blood in the *local area only*. The heat damages >the >
blood in the centemeter surrounding the lesion only. This was a >
pathomechanism presented by Dr. Gu at Emperor's college who specialized >
in dermatology in China, but unfortunately not the English language. >; ) >
href="http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/herb-students"> 

> > >--------------D285EAAF7427520228DEA7D2-- > > > >--__--__-- > >Message: 2 >Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 16:23:36 +1300 >From: phiangel >To: herb-students@gancao.net >Subject: [Herb-students] slow pulse = "healthy" heart?? >Reply-To: herb-students@gancao.net > > >--------------25B2A89C8B736A953B889516 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > >I agree with you Al re: a slow pulse can be an "athletic pulse", however >i have a suspiscion that there may be underlying pathlogy within >this.... > >An "Athletic Heart" after all is carrying a large amount of scar tissue, >and eventhough the heart appears to be operating more efficently (ie: >increased cardiac output....), there are many questions i have regarding >this being "healthy" eg: personal observation of "athletes" being >obsessive or emotionally agitated (shen disturbance via heart >pathology), either being "all go" or "flat" (ie: yang qi >depletion)....etc > > >Also, I remember a chinese saying (or something) about how we have only >a fixed number of heart beats and t/f overly strenuous exercise is not >recommended b/c the heartbeats get used up.... this may explain why the >pulse is slow too? (yang depletion?) >Anyway that idea lead me to think more about the heartbeat and then i >discovered alot of supposedly very fit (healthy?) athletes ended up >dying or suffering from heart pathologies.... (from a Western Medical >Science perspective) > >makes me reassess what i thought was "good" for me re: exercise.... and >if a "healthy" heart does in fact beat slowly....? >to a degree, i think not.... > >brendon > > > > > > > From: Al Stone > > Reply-To: herb-students@gancao.net > > > > Athletes, or persons who work out a lot tend to have really healthy > > hearts with a very efficient cardiac output, and so the heart doesn't > > have to beat as quickly. So, people in very good physical condition > > can develop a slow pulse. In such a case it would not indicate a > > pathology. > > > > This pulse is sometimes called the "athletic pulse". > > > > -al. > > > > > >--------------25B2A89C8B736A953B889516 >Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > > >
 
>I agree with you Al re: a slow pulse can be an "athletic pulse", however >i have a suspiscion that there may be underlying pathlogy within this.... >

An "Athletic Heart" after all is carrying a large amount of scar tissue, >and eventhough the heart appears to be operating more efficently (ie: >increased >cardiac output....), there are many questions i have regarding this being >"healthy" eg: personal observation of "athletes" being obsessive or >emotionally >agitated (shen disturbance via heart pathology), either being "all go" >or "flat" (ie: yang qi depletion)....etc >
  >

Also, I remember a chinese saying (or something) about how we have only >a fixed number of heart beats and t/f overly strenuous exercise is not >recommended b/c the heartbeats get used up.... this may explain why the >pulse is slow too?  (yang depletion?) >
Anyway that idea lead me to think more about the heartbeat and then >i discovered alot of supposedly very fit (healthy?) athletes ended up dying >or suffering from heart pathologies.... (from a Western Medical Science >perspective) >

makes me reassess what i thought was "good" for me re: exercise.... >and if a "healthy" heart does in fact beat slowly....? >
to a degree, i think not.... >

brendon >
  >
  >

  >
From: Al Stone <alstone@beyondwellbeing.com> >
Reply-To: herb-students@gancao.net > >

Athletes, or persons who work out a lot tend to have really >healthy
>hearts with a very efficient cardiac output, and so the heart doesn't
>have to beat as quickly. So, people in very good physical condition can >develop a slow pulse. In such a case it would not indicate a >pathology.  
>
>This pulse is sometimes called the "athletic pulse".
>
>-al.
>
>

> > >--------------25B2A89C8B736A953B889516-- > > > > > >--__--__-- > >_______________________________________________ >New from Gancao.net: >Acublog: reinterpreting biomedical research through the eyes of traditional >Chinese medicine. >http://gancao.net/weblogs/acublog.cgi > > >Herb-students mailing list >Herb-students@gancao.net >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/herb-students > >End of Herb-students Digest _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From alstone at beyondwellbeing.com Fri Dec 6 15:56:23 2002 From: alstone at beyondwellbeing.com (Al Stone) Date: Tue Aug 10 07:18:28 2004 Subject: [Herb-students] extract powders References: <16b.181ff3f0.2b22607f@aol.com> Message-ID: <3DF10EF9.D534EB02@beyondwellbeing.com> GR409@aol.com wrote: > > Jennifer writes: > > Have you used freeze dried herbals? Any time I try to find a compare > contrast article, I always just find sites selling herbs. I hear it is the > way to go, let me know if you find anything. Hope you had a great > holiday...Jennifer I use the freeze dried herbals exclusively. They're more commonly called 'extract powders'. If you go here you'll find some companies that sell the powders: http://gancao.net/aculinks/phpHoo2.php3?viewCat=73 As with everything, there is a yin side and a yang side to the use of extract powders. Overall, I like them though. HOwever I think that the raw herbs are stronger. But you don't get good patient complience with the raw herbs. i.e. they taste bad. I put the powders into capsules. -- Al Stone L.Ac. http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. From GR409 at aol.com Fri Dec 6 15:20:15 2002 From: GR409 at aol.com (GR409@aol.com) Date: Tue Aug 10 07:18:28 2004 Subject: [Herb-students] (no subject) Message-ID: <16b.181ff3f0.2b22607f@aol.com> Jennifer writes: Have you used freeze dried herbals? Any time I try to find a compare contrast article, I always just find sites selling herbs. I hear it is the way to go, let me know if you find anything. Hope you had a great holiday...Jennifer From alstone at beyondwellbeing.com Thu Dec 5 21:19:13 2002 From: alstone at beyondwellbeing.com (Al Stone) Date: Tue Aug 10 07:18:28 2004 Subject: [Herb-students] slow pulse = "healthy" heart?? References: <20021204162014.55840536DE@pairlist.net> <3DEEC6B8.48255D3C@ihug.co.nz> Message-ID: <3DF00922.7DFF2C1F@beyondwellbeing.com> I've noticed that strongly motivated athletes can indeed be as obsessed with it as any drug addict too... Your points are well taken. Of course, you still have to treat what you see in any case, and in many cases, diagnosis is as much what information you include as the information you ignore. I have a few books on tongue diagnosis for instance. Most of them will admit at one point in the introduction that the pathological tongue may actually be normal for the individual. So, we can't always draw a one to one correspondance between signs and syndromes. -al. phiangel wrote: > > > > > I agree with you Al re: a slow pulse can be an "athletic pulse", > however i have a suspiscion that there may be underlying pathlogy > within this.... > > An "Athletic Heart" after all is carrying a large amount of scar > tissue, and eventhough the heart appears to be operating more > efficently (ie: increased cardiac output....), there are many > questions i have regarding this being "healthy" eg: personal > observation of "athletes" being obsessive or emotionally agitated > (shen disturbance via heart pathology), either being "all go" or > "flat" (ie: yang qi depletion)....etc > > > Also, I remember a chinese saying (or something) about how we have > only a fixed number of heart beats and t/f overly strenuous exercise > is not recommended b/c the heartbeats get used up.... this may explain > why the pulse is slow too? (yang depletion?) > Anyway that idea lead me to think more about the heartbeat and then i > discovered alot of supposedly very fit (healthy?) athletes ended up > dying or suffering from heart pathologies.... (from a Western Medical > Science perspective) > > makes me reassess what i thought was "good" for me re: exercise.... > and if a "healthy" heart does in fact beat slowly....? > to a degree, i think not.... > > brendon > > > > > > > From: Al Stone > > Reply-To: herb-students@gancao.net > > > > Athletes, or persons who work out a lot tend to have really healthy > > hearts with a very efficient cardiac output, and so the heart > > doesn't > > have to beat as quickly. So, people in very good physical condition > > can develop a slow pulse. In such a case it would not indicate a > > pathology. > > > > This pulse is sometimes called the "athletic pulse". > > > > -al. > > > > -- Al Stone L.Ac. http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. From ebnykhda at hotmail.com Sat Dec 7 05:41:04 2002 From: ebnykhda at hotmail.com (Ebony-Khadija Davis) Date: Tue Aug 10 07:18:28 2004 Subject: [Herb-students] (no subject) Message-ID: >From: GR409@aol.com >Reply-To: herb-students@gancao.net >To: herb-students@gancao.net, alstone@beyondwellbeing.com >Subject: [Herb-students] (no subject) >Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 15:20:15 EST > >Jennifer writes: > >Have you used freeze dried herbals? Any time I try to find a compare >contrast article, I always just find sites selling herbs. I hear it is the >way to go, let me know if you find anything. Hope you had a great >holiday...Jennifer > > Hello Jennifer! thank you for writing. My experience with herbals is quite limited. In Germany, I have not heard of freeze dried herbals! To be truthful this is the first time I have heard of such! Sorry that I can not help you. I wish you a wonderful holiday as well. Take care Ebby > > >_______________________________________________ >New from Gancao.net: >Acublog: reinterpreting biomedical research through the eyes of traditional >Chinese medicine. >http://gancao.net/weblogs/acublog.cgi > > >Herb-students mailing list >Herb-students@gancao.net >http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/herb-students _________________________________________________________________ Messenger? - ?Wer in Echtzeit kommunizieren will, l?dt den MSN Messenger. Cool, kostenlos und mit 3D Emoticons: http://messenger.msn.de From alstone at beyondwellbeing.com Mon Dec 9 20:54:32 2002 From: alstone at beyondwellbeing.com (Al Stone) Date: Tue Aug 10 07:18:28 2004 Subject: [Herb-students] Extra Credit Assignment Message-ID: <3DF54959.8109635C@beyondwellbeing.com> Some of my students have been asking me about the extra-credit assignment... Here it is: Take any category of herbs and find the commonalities to all or most of the herbs. For instance, herbs that expel wind-dampness (Anti-rheumatics). This is a category that I actually missed during the 11th week lecture. To get a little bit in about all the categories caused me to get a little bit too general and we would all be served well by a more complete look into the commonalities of any given herb category. Herbs that expel wind-dampness tend to have three common properties. They are often warm, pungent, and bitter. The channels that they enter will tend to describe which areas their functions are most targeting. For instance, Qiang Huo goes to the UB and Kidney channels and its medical efficacy is most evident in the lower back and the legs where the Kidney and UB channels traverse. The most common cause for bi syndrome (painful obstruction syndrome in this case due to some external pathogen clogging up the flow of qi in the channels) is a mixture of cold, damp, and wind. Warm herbs address the cold, bitter dries the damp, and the pungent flavor addresses the wind by pushing it out of the channel system. So, if any of my students, or anybody else on this list would like to look through Bensky or other herb text and look at the commonalities among the herbs in a given category (or "chapter" as the case may be) you are welcome to provide us a report. My students who want extra credit for this must have their's done by Monday, December 15th. -- Al Stone L.Ac. http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. From lorne.hill at telus.net Tue Dec 10 11:35:52 2002 From: lorne.hill at telus.net (Lorne & Dodie Hill) Date: Tue Aug 10 07:18:28 2004 Subject: [Herb-students] RE: Herb-students digest, Vol 1 #43 Western and Chinese herbs In-Reply-To: <20021207170334.CC568538F1@pairlist.net> Message-ID: I am presently a TCM student and was wondering if anyone knew of a site that listed the compatibilities and incompatibilities when using Chinese Medicine herbs on a patient who was also on Western medications. I have heard that one should wait 4 hours between each type of "medicine". > > Can it be that simple? Or are there some western drugs that should not be mixed with herbs? > > I would greatly appreciate any information. > > P.S. I enjoy this form of contact with all of you that are in this field of healthcare. I have found that recently, (especially) the messages and discussions are very informative. Keep it up. > > Dodie (from Vancouver Canada) From alstone at beyondwellbeing.com Tue Dec 10 14:20:27 2002 From: alstone at beyondwellbeing.com (Al Stone) Date: Tue Aug 10 07:18:28 2004 Subject: [Herb-students] RE: Herb-students digest, Vol 1 #43 Western and Chinese herbs References: Message-ID: <3DF63E7C.C6589D34@beyondwellbeing.com> Lorne & Dodie Hill wrote: > > I am presently a TCM student and was wondering if anyone knew of a site that > listed the compatibilities and incompatibilities when using Chinese Medicine > herbs on a patient who was also on Western medications. I have heard that > one should wait 4 hours between each type of "medicine". That's a good rule of thumb, though I personally would be okay with one or two hours, just enough time to get the drugs absorbed, or out of the stomach so the herbs can be properly assimilated. > > Can it be that simple? Or are there some western drugs that should not be > mixed with herbs? There are a few known interactions that aren't so great such as Chai Hu (Rx. Bupleurum) and interferon. Some people died in Japan who were taking both of these. Chai Hu comes up in a formula for hepititis (xiao chai hu tang), and interferon is also used for this disease, hence the opportunity for this particular interaction. Other than these few (no others even come to mind) what I tend to do is look at the mechanism of the drug and compare it to the function of the herb to avoid either potentiating the action or negating it. For instance, coumadin is a blood thiner used to prevent strokes and other circulatory problems. To give someone blood activator herbs may cause the blood to become even thinner. This could give rise to excessive internal bleeding, lowered blood pressure and a few other ugly things. By the same token, if you have a patient on someting like synthroid which ends up looking like a Yang tonic, and you start giving the patient heat clearing herbs, it may negate the necessary effects of the synthroid and the patient's hypothyroid symptoms may return. Now, these are just examples, but the idea is to look at what the drug does to the patient, translate that into TCM terms and then decide if the herb or formula is compatible with the treatment principle already in place. To be honest, coumadin is such a heavy duty drug that whenever I see someone on it, I tend to avoid herbs entirely because its usually a sort of last-ditch effort to save a life and I hate to mess around with these patients for fear of doing something unforeseen and making them sicker or worse. Acupuncture is far more forgiving for these kinds of patients and so I lean toward the needles alone for patients who are being kept alive with drugs. Another patient that I tend to avoid herbal therapy with is the person who is taking more than five drugs, and there is no shortage of patients such as this. There are simply too many unforeseen reactions and interactions going on to know at all what's going to happen. I had a patient who was on something like 9 drugs, half of them treating the side effects of the other half. She wanted to get off the drugs altogether. I began to give her herbs and for the first two months, she was doing great. She lowered the dosage on half of the drugs and even stopped taking a few of them. We were making great progress till I didn't hear from her for a while. I contacted her to see what was going on. She said that she had developed severe headaches and found that when she stoped taking the herbs, they went away. In her words: "My doctor says that herbs can give you headaches." Never mind all the drug interactions, it must by the herbs. And so she stopped taking them and I haven't heard from her since. This case is an opportunity for a few learning experiences. Firstly, because when she stopped taking the herbs, the headache went away, I could have simply tracked down the likely culpret, removed or replaced it in the formula and we could have continued on. But the real problem here, and my own personal frustration with the situation is that The Doctor told her something that clearly came from a place of ignorance on his part and she took it, hook line and sinker. His statement that "herbs can cause headaches" is of course true, but nothing compared to the drugs that he's giving her. I'm not anti-drug actually. But I was trying to do what she wanted, and that was to ween herself off of drug therapy, and we were making excellent progress, but as soon as some minor side effect arises, she went running off to our culture's de facto expert in medicine, the MD, and my opinion suddenly has no weight or importance. Therein lies my frustration. Oh well, her health is her choice, always was, always will be. -al. -- Al Stone L.Ac. http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. From phiangel at ihug.co.nz Tue Dec 10 14:39:52 2002 From: phiangel at ihug.co.nz (phiangel) Date: Tue Aug 10 07:18:28 2004 Subject: [Herb-students] Re: Commonalities of Herbals References: <20021210170323.96C64536E1@pairlist.net> Message-ID: <3DF64308.BFF2ACE6@ihug.co.nz> > Now this is something i have never been clearly taught in westen or chinese herbal classes, though it was quite a focus in ayurvedic classes.... What is the relationship of the properties of the herbals to their action? Perhaps this would be good to be covered briefly before the extra credit assignment? For example, you mentioned: Warm herbs address the cold, bitter dries the damp, and the pungent flavor addresses the wind by pushing it out of the channel system. *Can i infer from this that all bitter herbals dry damp? *Are Bitter herbals diuretics? *What if a Herbal in the "Expel Wind-Dampness" category is NOT Bitter?? eg: can sha (sweet (!), acrid, warm) or mu gua ( sour, slightly warm) *Is the overall property of the formula more important ie: can contain sweet herbals, but must be bitter overall? *given the general tendency of patients to dislike bitter taste, is compliance for wind-cold-damp obstruction sufferers most difficult? ;-) If you have time Al, could you briefly mention the main actions of each property? many thanks brendon > > From: Al Stone > Reply-To: herb-students@gancao.net > Organization: beyondwellbeing.com > To: herb students list > > Some of my students have been asking me about the extra-credit > assignment... Here it is: > > Take any category of herbs and find the commonalities to all or most of the herbs. > > For instance, herbs that expel wind-dampness (Anti-rheumatics). This is > a category that I actually missed during the 11th week lecture. To get > a little bit in about all the categories caused me to get a little bit > too general and we would all be served well by a more complete look into > the commonalities of any given herb category. > > Herbs that expel wind-dampness tend to have three common properties. > They are often warm, pungent, and bitter. The channels that they enter > will tend to describe which areas their functions are most targeting. > For instance, Qiang Huo goes to the UB and Kidney channels and its > medical efficacy is most evident in the lower back and the legs where > the Kidney and UB channels traverse. The most common cause for bi > syndrome (painful obstruction syndrome in this case due to some external > pathogen clogging up the flow of qi in the channels) is a mixture of > cold, damp, and wind. > > Warm herbs address the cold, bitter dries the damp, and the pungent > flavor addresses the wind by pushing it out of the channel system. > > So, if any of my students, or anybody else on this list would like to > look through Bensky or other herb text and look at the commonalities > among the herbs in a given category (or "chapter" as the case may be) > you are welcome to provide us a report. > > My students who want extra credit for this must have their's done by > Monday, December 15th. > > -- > Al Stone L.Ac. > > http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com > > Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://five.pairlist.net/pipermail/tcm-students/attachments/20021211/5a66d526/attachment.html From taiqi at taiqi.com Tue Dec 10 15:10:58 2002 From: taiqi at taiqi.com (douglas) Date: Tue Aug 10 07:18:28 2004 Subject: [Herb-students] RE: Herb-students digest, Vol 1 #43 Western and Chinese herbs References: <3DF63E7C.C6589D34@beyondwellbeing.com> Message-ID: <3DF64A51.19EA6DD7@taiqi.com> > sometimes I think the real problem is the certainty that western medicine and thought tries to give. The Doctor can say "Yes, there are side-effects of these drugs that may even be fatal. But we know that." Whereas our approach is that nothing in life is certain, there is mystery, and most importantly, Everything Changes. The Patient who looks to the doctor to "fix" them will be frustrated with the Chinese doctor as artist and co-participant in life and health. [How's that for New Age? ;-)] doug > But the real problem here, and my own personal frustration with the > situation is that The Doctor told her something that clearly came from a > place of ignorance on his part and she took it, hook line and sinker. > His statement that "herbs can cause headaches" is of course true, but > nothing compared to the drugs that he's giving her. > > I'm not anti-drug actually. But I was trying to do what she wanted, and > that was to ween herself off of drug therapy, and we were making > excellent progress, but as soon as some minor side effect arises, she > went running off to our culture's de facto expert in medicine, the MD, > and my opinion suddenly has no weight or importance. > > Therein lies my frustration. Oh well, her health is her choice, always > was, always will be. > > -al. From alstone at beyondwellbeing.com Tue Dec 10 17:55:30 2002 From: alstone at beyondwellbeing.com (Al Stone) Date: Tue Aug 10 07:18:28 2004 Subject: [Herb-students] Re: Commonalities of Herbals References: <20021210170323.96C64536E1@pairlist.net> <3DF64308.BFF2ACE6@ihug.co.nz> Message-ID: <3DF670E3.699A8426@beyondwellbeing.com> phiangel wrote: > > > > > Now this is something i have never been clearly taught in westen or > chinese herbal classes, though it was quite a focus in ayurvedic > classes.... > > What is the relationship of the properties of the herbals to their > action? > > Perhaps this would be good to be covered briefly before the extra > credit assignment? Here's a brief synopsis of the actions of the various tastes and temperatures: The four Qi: hot, warm, (neutral,) cool, cold: used to treat cold and heat. (Warm treats cool and cool treats warmth etc.) The tastes Pungent (acrid): disperse and move sweet: tonify, harmonize, calm, moisten, lift bitter: drain (heat, and damp?), dry (damp) and sedate (heat in the heart) sour: astringe and prevent or abnormal leakage of fluids or Qi salty: Purges (intestines), softens (lumps, bone spurs). (Bland, which means a lack of taste): Seeps out dampness and promotes urination. (Astringent): An action more than taste, same as sour, but without the sour taste. (aromatic): An action to pierce through turbidity to awaken or open the Spleen or Heart orifices. Pungent and sweet are more Yang. Pungent disperses and sweet lifts. Sweet+pungent creates more yang. Bitter and sour are more Yin in that they drain down or astringe. Sweet+sour creates more yin. Salty and Bland are not included in the Nei Jing?s estimation of the yin and yang of flavors. Directionality: (generalizations) Pungent disperse from the inside to the outside, guides to metal element (lung/large intestine) Salty descends and guides toward the water element (kidneys/urinary bladder) sour astringes from exterior to interior, guides to the wood element (liver/gall bladder) bitter descends and guides toward the fire element (heart/small intestine) Sweet lifts and guides toward the earth element (spleen/stomach), though some books say that the sweet flavor stays put, and doesn't move, really. > For example, you mentioned: > Warm herbs address the cold, bitter dries the damp, and the pungent > flavor addresses the wind by pushing it out of the channel system. > > *Can i infer from this that all bitter herbals dry damp? Nope. Sorry. : ) Welcome to TCM. > *Are Bitter herbals diuretics? Some yes, some no. As a rule, bland herbs are diuretics. > *What if a Herbal in the "Expel Wind-Dampness" category is NOT > Bitter?? eg: can sha (sweet (!), acrid, warm) or mu gua ( sour, > slightly warm) Yeah, go figure. The point is, that there are generalities based on the functions of the different flavors and knowing these generalities can help you learn your herbs because then you have less to memorize. > *Is the overall property of the formula more important ie: can > contain sweet herbals, but must be bitter overall? Formulas tend to do more than just one thing, for instance some formulas that are very bitter and cold can damage the SPleen Yang and cause diarrhea, so these formulas may include a warm herb or two to protect that Spleen Yang. > *given the general tendency of patients to dislike bitter taste, is > compliance for wind-cold-damp obstruction sufferers most difficult? The functional taste and the taste on the tongue are two different things, but in general yes, medicinal herb teas are... distasteful? ; ) -- Al Stone L.Ac. http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. From lmcmanus1 at juno.com Sat Dec 14 13:20:02 2002 From: lmcmanus1 at juno.com (Linda J McManus) Date: Tue Aug 10 07:18:28 2004 Subject: [Herb-students] Re: epilepsy Message-ID: <20021214.102037.-519637.2.Lmcmanus1@juno.com> Hi All - I am looking for information about epilepsy. This is not for a patient of mine, but a friend of the family is looking for something for her daughter. The daughter is 14 years old, mentally handicapped and epileptic. The mom got something about herbs on the web (not my favorite source, but there you have it) and I am wondering if any of you know either about this or have any information from your own learnings about epilepsy and seizures. I do not - other than basic TCM ideas of Kidney Jing xu and Wind and Phlegm. Any experience with this out there? The info she got is: chinaberry (Azadirachta indica syn. Melia azadirachta) Qingyang shen Shosaiko-to-gokeisha-ka-shakuyakuto: this I picked apart using Bensky and find "shosaikoto" to mean Minor Bupleurum/Xiao Chai Hu Tang and "shakuyakuto" to mean Peony Decoction/Shao Yao Tang. Can't reference the middle part. And, am not sure about this application. Thanks much. Linda McManus Lmcmanus1@juno.com (360) 620-2144 From alstone at beyondwellbeing.com Sat Dec 14 14:21:47 2002 From: alstone at beyondwellbeing.com (Al Stone) Date: Tue Aug 10 07:18:28 2004 Subject: [Herb-students] Re: epilepsy References: <20021214.102037.-519637.2.Lmcmanus1@juno.com> Message-ID: <3DFB84CC.28229A2B@beyondwellbeing.com> My experience with epilepsy is limited to some eight extra meridian treatments that I learned a while back and the use of tian ma gou teng yin, but yes, you're right that you'll need to differentiate the syndrome before chosing any therapy. I think that you're right to assume Jing Xu, Wind and Phlegm. -al. Linda J McManus wrote: > > Hi All - > > I am looking for information about epilepsy. This is not for a patient > of mine, but a friend of the family is looking for something for her > daughter. The daughter is 14 years old, mentally handicapped and > epileptic. The mom got something about herbs on the web (not my favorite > source, but there you have it) and I am wondering if any of you know > either about this or have any information from your own learnings about > epilepsy and seizures. I do not - other than basic TCM ideas of Kidney > Jing xu and Wind and Phlegm. Any experience with this out there? > > The info she got is: > chinaberry (Azadirachta indica syn. Melia azadirachta) > > Qingyang shen > > Shosaiko-to-gokeisha-ka-shakuyakuto: this I picked apart using Bensky and > find "shosaikoto" to mean Minor Bupleurum/Xiao Chai Hu Tang and > "shakuyakuto" to mean Peony Decoction/Shao Yao Tang. Can't reference the > middle part. And, am not sure about this application. > > Thanks much. > > Linda McManus > Lmcmanus1@juno.com > > (360) 620-2144 > > _______________________________________________ > New from Gancao.net: > Acublog: reinterpreting biomedical research through the eyes of traditional Chinese medicine. > http://gancao.net/weblogs/acublog.cgi > > Herb-students mailing list > Herb-students@gancao.net > http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/herb-students -- Al Stone L.Ac. http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. From alstone at beyondwellbeing.com Mon Dec 16 15:17:49 2002 From: alstone at beyondwellbeing.com (Al Stone) Date: Tue Aug 10 07:18:28 2004 Subject: [Herb-students] Extra Credit Message-ID: <3DFE34F0.83823761@beyondwellbeing.com> Intro to Herbology Extra Credit #2 Hee-Sun Han 12/14/2002 Herbs that regulate the Qi tend to have three common properties, which are pungent, warm and bitter. Qi regulating herbs tend to enter the Spleen, Stomach, Lung, Large Intestine, and Liver meridians, because these organs directly affect the Qi movement in the body. These herbs treat Qi stagnation caused by emotional disturbance, accumulation of internal Cold, Heat, Phlegm, water, food, trauma, and Blood stagnation through regulating, spreading, harmonizing the Qi. Pungency disperses, warmth dries dampness and expels cold, and bitterness descends. Herbs with warm and pungent properties promote Qi movement. Pungent-bitter herbs move upward and downward, moving Qi in tow directions for activating Qi movement. Pungent-better-warm herbs works steadily and constantly to dry dampness. Many of the herbs are tangerine, bitter orange, or orange. Because of the aromatic (in some), pungent, warm, and dry nature of these herbs, long term use can injure the Yin and body fluids. The herbs need to be used with caution during heavy menstruation or in bleeding conditions, because warm and pungent properties can activate Qi movement, causing heavy menstrual bleeding. Dispersing action of the Qi regulating herbs should be used carefully in patients with Qi deficiency, because it may disperse the Qi of the patient too much. Most of the herbs under this category contain volatile oils, therefore should be decocted no longer than 15 minutes. Chen Pi [Citrus reticulata] is dried tangerine peel (normally kept for a year before use) that has pungent, bitter, warm, aromatic properties. Chen Pi goes to Lung, Spleen, Stomach channels. Bitterness of this herb promotes the Qi movement, directing it downward. By entering Spleen or Stomach channels, it improves the transportive function and relieves symptoms from Qi stasis. Warm property of Chen Pi enters Lung and Spleen channels to dry dampness and transform phlegm. Pungency disperses and helps to open the meridians for promoting Qi movement and blood circulation. Aromatic property has moving and dispersing action and has aroma. It enters the Spleen channel to transform the turbidity of Dampness and harmonize the Qi and Blood. It also is used for unblocking Qi and Blood obstructions and relieving pain. When used with tonifying herbs, Chen Pi helps to prevent stagnation caused by their cloying nature. Following charts were made based on the information provided in Materia Medica by Bensky. Channels the herbs enter Herb LU SP ST KID UB GB LI SI SJ LIV Chen Pi * * * Qing Pi * * * Da Fu Pi * * * * Zhi Shi * * * Xiang Fu * * Mu Xiang * * * * Wu Yao * * * * Chen Xiang * * * Tan Xiang * * * Xie Bai * * * Fo Shou * * * * Mei Gui Hua * * Chuan Lian Zi * * * * Li Zhi He * * Shi Di * * Herb Properties Herb Acrid (Pungent) Warm Bitter Aromatic Sweet Neutral Astringent Cold Chen Pi * * * * Qing Pi * * * Da Fu Pi * * Zhi Shi * * * Xiang * * * * Mu Xiang * * * Wu Yao * * Chen Xiang * * * * Tan Xiang * * * Xie Bai * * * Fo Shou * * * Mei Gui Hua * * * Chuan Lian Zi * * Li Zhi He * * * Shi Di * * * -- Al Stone L.Ac. http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. From alstone at beyondwellbeing.com Thu Dec 19 17:39:34 2002 From: alstone at beyondwellbeing.com (Al Stone) Date: Tue Aug 10 07:18:28 2004 Subject: [Herb-students] extra credit assignment Message-ID: <3E024AA6.506E41D9@beyondwellbeing.com> Hello Prof. Stone, How are you doing? Here is the extra credit you assigned. I had a lot of fun doing it. I am going to do this for all of the categories over the break, as my first pass at understanding and getting a grounding in the Herbs. If you don't mind, I would like to know what you think of my evaluation of this category of herbs, as I realize that I may have chosen a fairly difficult category to do as it is not as cut-and-dry as other categories we've looked at. Thank you. Vanessa I. Harvey ____________________ Hi Vanessa, I'm going to take what you've written and make a few comments too, just for the list... My comments will be wrapped by some of these "<<<". -al. ____________________ Category: Aromatic Herbs that Open the Orifices Aromatic Herbs that Open the Orifices are used to open the orifices and awaken the Spirit, particularly in the case of "Locked-up" syndrome, an acute, Excess syndrome where the orifices (sensory and/or Heart orifices) are blocked by a disturbance of Qi and Blood which are complicated by Phlegm, Heat or Cold, or Yang-rising. >>>For the sake of translation, we're looking at various states of epilepsy or coma in these pathologies. In "locked up cases", a state of unconsciouness is part of the syndrome. There are actually two types of coma/loss of consciousness disorders. There's the "closed" or "locked-up" syndrome and there's the "open" or "abandoned" syndrome. The Closed syndrome is excessive, involves tight jawed or rigid muscles while the open syndrome features an open mouth and relaxed muscles. <<< This category of herbs are either Pungent/Aromatic, or Pungent and Bitter and can have a temperature of warm or cold, depending on its application. As blocked orifices due to pathogenic factors obstruct the Heart and therefore the Shen, which the Heart governs, all of the Herbs in this category target the Heart channel. >>>The Heart governs the Blood. It pushes it around. The Heart stores the Shen. Minor little point, but I figured that I'd make it.<<< Most of the herbs are Pungent, which moves, disperses, and promotes Qi and Blood movement. In the Heart, the Pungency will help circulate the Blood and open the Heart orifices to support and revive the Shen. >>>Remember that the pungent flavor has an outward, dispersing quality about it, and this is somewhat consistant with the nature of fire. It glows, it shines, a healthy Shen will light up a room with warmth. So, the pungent flavor in its way can assist the Shen in projecting itself outward. More therapeutically speaking, the pungent flavor can move phlegm which helps to break it up and open the Heart orifices. <<< The Aromatic quality of some of the herbs in this category works the same as the Pungent, but its fragrant and light quality unblocks Qi and Blood obstruction and relives Pain, and also penetrates the turbidity of the Dampness and Phlegm in the Middle Jiao (Spleen/Stomach). >>> It also penetrates the turbidity of phlegm misting any orifice, whether it is a Heart orifice or a sensory orifice. <<< Indeed, many of these Herbs in this category enter the Spleen to promote its function of Transforming and Transporting the accumulated Dampness and Phlegm, as well as invigorating the Blood and moving the Qi, as the Spleen is the first step in the production of Blood and Qi. >>> Remember, the Earth element creates the dampness and the Metal element stores it. Removing dampness from the Spleen can assist in bringing back its ability to T&T, while at the same time increasing its ability to T&T will prevent dampness (and later on, phlegm) from accumulating in the first place.<<< The Bitterness of some of the Herbs dries the Dampness (and the Phlegm it produces) as well. Of the Herbs, three -- She Xiang, Su He Xiang, and Shi Chang Pu -- are warm Herbs used for Cold "Locked-up" syndrome, while the cold herbs -- Bing Pian and Niu Huang -- address Hot "Locked-up" syndrome. >>>That which comes from heat is usually associated with some sort of high fever, specifically heat in the pericardium. This is a feature of Ying Stage Heat which is part of the Wen Bing way of looking at things. The cold type of locked up syndrome is where there is some cold in the body which effects the water metabolism leading the production of dampness, then phlegm and finally phlegm in the Heart orifices.<<< Thanks Vanessa, this was good. -al. From SJeevanjee at aol.com Sat Dec 21 20:20:44 2002 From: SJeevanjee at aol.com (SJeevanjee@aol.com) Date: Tue Aug 10 07:18:28 2004 Subject: [Herb-students] chronic insomnia case Message-ID: <5973D7EC.4DA86166.0BF9F5C4@aol.com> Hello fellow students, I am so happy to see a forum like this - thanks so much Al. ?Since I am a newly qualified acupuncturist who has only recently started studying herbs, it would be great if any of you could help me out with a precription for a chronic insomnia case. * Male, 40 yrs, Insomnia since age 10 or earlier. ?Tall, slightly thin, good humoured. ?Slightly flushed face, balding in GB area, some sweat on forehead. ?Has very responsible job, but does not seem stressed by it. ?Lost little finger in fire work accident when young. Sleep s/s: * gets to sleep easily but wakes about every 45 mins (wide awake and restless) and sleeps best between 6.30-9am. ?NEVER wakes rested. * night sweats, alternating hot and cold sensations both day and night - "no temperature regulation" ?- negative result from thyroid test. * vivid dreams: about 1 every 2-3 months Secondary s/s: * must eat regulary (8am/12am/6pm) or he suffers "sharp, stabbing cramps and loose stools" in the large intestine area (although he says they are in his Stomach). ? * dark scanty urine 1 time/day * very thirsty all the time (but drinks coffee and coke) * tight chest always * hot flushes * poor concentration and memory * used to like cold drinks, but recently prefers warm drinks * feels "cold all the time" * feels "low" during Fall Family history: * father had St ulcers and died at 60 of CHD * brother has St ulcers but no stress Pulse = superficial, surging (=full and struggling esp. on right side), rapid Tongue = thin body, red, no coat, central crack, slight deviation to left BP: 110/70 mmHg Western meds: Ambien .15mg, Imprimine (SSRI) .25mg. ?He has been taking these for 1.5 years and says they improve his sleep by about 20-30%. ?So far, he has noticed a dry mouth and occipital headaches in the morning which he thinks are side effects of the meds. TCM Dx: ? Yin xu-Heat ?(Kd ->Ht) --> Heart Fire ? Blood xu ? (assume that Liv Blood is not housing Shen) Sp/St xu and/or LI Heat Liv Qi Stag (-->Ht Fire/St Fire) early stage Yang xu because of Cold signs (????) please comment on this I focussed my first Tx on: Nourishing Yin, Blood and Fluids, Stopping sweat, Calm Shen, Mildly Move and Tonify constrained Qi, Drain HT and St Fire, Ton. Sp. and promote sleep Prescription: Sheng di ?10 Shu di ?10 Zhi mu ?5 Suan zao ren ?15 Dan shen ?12 He huan hua ?12 Fu shen ?12 Wu Wei zi ?10 Fu xiao mai ?8 Xi yang shen ?5 Huang lian 9 Zhi gan cao ?5 Sheng jiang ?2 slices Advice given so far: eat yin nourishing foods, stay off alcohol, coffee and spices. Try meditation which he has already started. Would be grateful for any comments on my diagnosis and prescription especially. Thanks, SJ From alstone at beyondwellbeing.com Sat Dec 21 20:57:46 2002 From: alstone at beyondwellbeing.com (Al Stone) Date: Tue Aug 10 07:18:28 2004 Subject: [Herb-students] chronic insomnia case References: <5973D7EC.4DA86166.0BF9F5C4@aol.com> Message-ID: <3E051C19.5C5450E5@beyondwellbeing.com> SJeevanjee@aol.com wrote: > > Hello fellow students, > > I am so happy to see a forum like this - thanks so much Al. ?Since I am a newly qualified acupuncturist who has only recently started studying herbs, it would be great if any of you could help me out with a precription for a chronic insomnia case. > > * Male, 40 yrs, Insomnia since age 10 or earlier. (((((Al sez: That already leans us toward a deficiency syndrome since it is a chronic issue. The deficiencies that are commonly considered a potential cause for insomnia include: Heart Blood and Spleen Qi Xu Heart and Kidney Yin Xu (and the other names such as kidney and heart not communicating) Heart and Gall Bladder Qi Xu Liver yin and Blood deficiency.))))) ?Tall, slightly thin, good humoured. ?Slightly flushed face, balding in GB area, some sweat on forehead. ?Has very responsible job, but does not seem stressed by it. ?Lost little finger in fire work accident when young. (((Blood deficiency, I'd expect a pale face, not flushed. I'm leaning toward the Yin Xu))) > Sleep s/s: > * gets to sleep easily but wakes about every 45 mins (wide awake and restless) and sleeps best between 6.30-9am. ?NEVER wakes rested. > * night sweats, alternating hot and cold sensations both day and night - "no temperature regulation" ?- negative result from thyroid test. > * vivid dreams: about 1 every 2-3 months ((((Night sweats= Yin xu or damp heat. I guess on rare occassions it could be Blood xu too. Vivid dreams says heat in the heart, though we don't know if that's excessive or deficient in nature.)))) > Secondary s/s: > * must eat regulary (8am/12am/6pm) or he suffers "sharp, stabbing cramps and loose stools" in the large intestine area (although he says they are in his Stomach). ? > * dark scanty urine 1 time/day (((Yin xu or heat))) > * very thirsty all the time (but drinks coffee and coke) (((Yin xu or thirst due to the coffee which is drying and coke which is weird too))) > * tight chest always (((Qi stagnation likely, could be phegm accumulation too.)))) > * hot flushes ((((Yin xu likely))) > * poor concentration and memory (((Yin xu leading to a possible Jing Xu)))) > * used to like cold drinks, but recently prefers warm drinks (((Yin xu leading to Yang or Qi or Jing xu, or perhaps has discovered the pleasures of Starbucks. ha ha))) > * feels "cold all the time" ((( Based on previous findings, I don't know if he really knows what his temperature feels like))) > * feels "low" during Fall > > Family history: > * father had St ulcers and died at 60 of CHD > * brother has St ulcers but no stress > > Pulse = superficial, surging (=full and struggling esp. on right side), rapid (((Yin Xu possible)))) > Tongue = thin body, red, no coat, central crack, slight deviation to left (((Yin Xu with slight Liver Yin Xu too)))) > BP: 110/70 mmHg > > Western meds: Ambien .15mg, Imprimine (SSRI) .25mg. ?He has been taking these for 1.5 years and says they improve his sleep by about 20-30%. ?So far, he has noticed a dry mouth and occipital headaches in the morning which he thinks are side effects of the meds. ((( Possibly aggravated by the underlying yin xu))) > > TCM Dx: ? > Yin xu-Heat ?(Kd ->Ht) --> Heart Fire (((Or false heat going to the heart, if that's what you meant))) > ? Blood xu ? (assume that Liv Blood is not housing Shen) ((((I don't see the Blood xu. It would be nice to see a pale tongue or dry eyes or brittle nails or some other liver signs or Blood xu signs.))) > Sp/St xu and/or LI Heat > Liv Qi Stag (-->Ht Fire/St Fire) > early stage Yang xu because of Cold signs (????) please comment on this (((Yeah, this is possible, I'm in agreeement, not sure though.))) > I focussed my first Tx on: > Nourishing Yin, Blood and Fluids, Stopping sweat, Calm Shen, Mildly Move and Tonify constrained Qi, Drain HT and St Fire, Ton. Sp. and promote sleep > > Prescription: (((I'd start out with simply Tian Wang Bu Xin Dan and perhaps modify it a bit to make sure that it is assimilated okay if there are some Spleen/Stomach issues suspected. ))) > > Sheng di ?10 (in twbxd) > Shu di ?10 > Zhi mu ?5 > Suan zao ren ?15 (in twbxd) > Dan shen ?12 (in twbxd) > He huan hua ?12 > Fu shen ?12 > Wu Wei zi ?10 (in twbxd) > Fu xiao mai ?8 > Xi yang shen ?5 > Huang lian 9 > Zhi gan cao ?5 > Sheng jiang ?2 slices (((Everything here looks good to me, but I have to admit that my level of herbal expertise isn't quite a the point where I would be able to really critique this formula, I just like to start out with the old reliables such as Tian Wang Bu Xin Dan, and see what happens with the patient after a month or so.))) > Advice given so far: eat yin nourishing foods, stay off alcohol, coffee and spices. Try meditation which he has already started. (((Yeah, those warm drying foods can be a problem. If you have a chance to pick up the Clinical Handbook of Internal Medicine, but Maclean and Lyttleton, you can get some on-going feedback for cases such as this. It is the (two volume set) book that I use the most. There's a third volume on its way too.))) -- Al Stone L.Ac. http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. From SJeevanjee at aol.com Sun Dec 22 23:11:12 2002 From: SJeevanjee at aol.com (SJeevanjee@aol.com) Date: Tue Aug 10 07:18:28 2004 Subject: [Herb-students] chronic insomnia case Message-ID: <4ACB4F1E.63150DB0.0BF9F5C4@aol.com> Thanks alot Al. It really helps to discuss this over with someone. I too thought of giving him Tian Wang Bu Xin Dan, but I felt that maybe it had too many yin tonics for someone whose digestion seemed a bit dodgy. I'll see how he responds to my formula and if you would like me to, I'll let you know how it goes. Btw, I also like the Maclean and Lyttleton books. Thx, SJ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ??Subj: ?? Herb-students digest, Vol 1 #48 - 2 msgs ??Date: ?? Sun, 22 Dec 2002 5:02:50 pm GMT ??From: ?? herb-students-request@gancao.net ??To: ?? herb-students@gancao.net ??Reply-To: ?? herb-students@gancao.net ??Sent from the Internet (Details) Send Herb-students mailing list submissions to ? ?herb-students@gancao.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit ? ?http://www.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/herb-students or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to ? ?herb-students-request@gancao.net You can reach the person managing the list at ? ?herb-students-admin@gancao.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Herb-students digest..." Today's Topics: ? 1. chronic insomnia case (SJeevanjee@aol.com) ? 2. Re: chronic insomnia case (Al Stone) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 20:20:44 -0500 From: SJeevanjee@aol.com To: herb-students@gancao.net Subject: [Herb-students] chronic insomnia case Reply-To: herb-students@gancao.net Hello fellow students, I am so happy to see a forum like this - thanks so much Al. ?Since I am a newly qualified acupuncturist who has only recently started studying herbs, it would be great if any of you could help me out with a precription for a chronic insomnia case. * Male, 40 yrs, Insomnia since age 10 or earlier. ?Tall, slightly thin, good humoured. ?Slightly flushed face, balding in GB area, some sweat on forehead. ?Has very responsible job, but does not seem stressed by it. ?Lost little finger in fire work accident when young. Sleep s/s: * gets to sleep easily but wakes about every 45 mins (wide awake and restless) and sleeps best between 6.30-9am. ?NEVER wakes rested. * night sweats, alternating hot and cold sensations both day and night - "no temperature regulation" ?- negative result from thyroid test. * vivid dreams: about 1 every 2-3 months Secondary s/s: * must eat regulary (8am/12am/6pm) or he suffers "sharp, stabbing cramps and loose stools" in the large intestine area (although he says they are in his Stomach). ? * dark scanty urine 1 time/day * very thirsty all the time (but drinks coffee and coke) * tight chest always * hot flushes * poor concentration and memory * used to like cold drinks, but recently prefers warm drinks * feels "cold all the time" * feels "low" during Fall Family history: * father had St ulcers and died at 60 of CHD * brother has St ulcers but no stress Pulse = superficial, surging (=full and struggling esp. on right side), rapid Tongue = thin body, red, no coat, central crack, slight deviation to left BP: 110/70 mmHg Western meds: Ambien .15mg, Imprimine (SSRI) .25mg. ?He has been taking these for 1.5 years and says they improve his sleep by about 20-30%. ?So far, he has noticed a dry mouth and occipital headaches in the morning which he thinks are side effects of the meds. TCM Dx: ? Yin xu-Heat ?(Kd ->Ht) --> Heart Fire ? Blood xu ? (assume that Liv Blood is not housing Shen) Sp/St xu and/or LI Heat Liv Qi Stag (-->Ht Fire/St Fire) early stage Yang xu because of Cold signs (????) please comment on this I focussed my first Tx on: Nourishing Yin, Blood and Fluids, Stopping sweat, Calm Shen, Mildly Move and Tonify constrained Qi, Drain HT and St Fire, Ton. Sp. and promote sleep Prescription: Sheng di ?10 Shu di ?10 Zhi mu ?5 Suan zao ren ?15 Dan shen ?12 He huan hua ?12 Fu shen ?12 Wu Wei zi ?10 Fu xiao mai ?8 Xi yang shen ?5 Huang lian 9 Zhi gan cao ?5 Sheng jiang ?2 slices Advice given so far: eat yin nourishing foods, stay off alcohol, coffee and spices. Try meditation which he has already started. Would be grateful for any comments on my diagnosis and prescription especially. Thanks, SJ --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 17:57:46 -0800 From: Al Stone Organization: beyondwellbeing.com To: herb-students@gancao.net Subject: Re: [Herb-students] chronic insomnia case Reply-To: herb-students@gancao.net SJeevanjee@aol.com wrote: > > Hello fellow students, > > I am so happy to see a forum like this - thanks so much Al. ?Since I am a newly qualified acupuncturist who has only recently started studying herbs, it would be great if any of you could help me out with a precription for a chronic insomnia case. > > * Male, 40 yrs, Insomnia since age 10 or earlier. (((((Al sez: That already leans us toward a deficiency syndrome since it is a chronic issue. ?The deficiencies that are commonly considered a potential cause for insomnia include: Heart Blood and Spleen Qi Xu Heart and Kidney Yin Xu (and the other names such as kidney and heart not communicating) Heart and Gall Bladder Qi Xu Liver yin and Blood deficiency.))))) ?Tall, slightly thin, good humoured. ?Slightly flushed face, balding in GB area, some sweat on forehead. ?Has very responsible job, but does not seem stressed by it. ?Lost little finger in fire work accident when young. (((Blood deficiency, I'd expect a pale face, not flushed. I'm leaning toward the Yin Xu))) > Sleep s/s: > * gets to sleep easily but wakes about every 45 mins (wide awake and restless) and sleeps best between 6.30-9am. ?NEVER wakes rested. > * night sweats, alternating hot and cold sensations both day and night - "no temperature regulation" ?- negative result from thyroid test. > * vivid dreams: about 1 every 2-3 months ((((Night sweats= Yin xu or damp heat. I guess on rare occassions it could be Blood xu too. ?Vivid dreams says heat in the heart, though we don't know if that's excessive or deficient in nature.)))) > Secondary s/s: > * must eat regulary (8am/12am/6pm) or he suffers "sharp, stabbing cramps and loose stools" in the large intestine area (although he says they are in his Stomach). ? > * dark scanty urine 1 time/day (((Yin xu or heat))) > * very thirsty all the time (but drinks coffee and coke) (((Yin xu or thirst due to the coffee which is drying and coke which is weird too))) > * tight chest always (((Qi stagnation likely, could be phegm accumulation too.)))) > * hot flushes ((((Yin xu likely))) > * poor concentration and memory (((Yin xu leading to a possible Jing Xu)))) > * used to like cold drinks, but recently prefers warm drinks (((Yin xu leading to Yang or Qi or Jing xu, or perhaps has discovered the pleasures of Starbucks. ha ha))) > * feels "cold all the time" ((( Based on previous findings, I don't know if he really knows what his temperature feels like))) > * feels "low" during Fall > > Family history: > * father had St ulcers and died at 60 of CHD > * brother has St ulcers but no stress > > Pulse = superficial, surging (=full and struggling esp. on right side), rapid (((Yin Xu possible)))) > Tongue = thin body, red, no coat, central crack, slight deviation to left (((Yin Xu with slight Liver Yin Xu too)))) > BP: 110/70 mmHg > > Western meds: Ambien .15mg, Imprimine (SSRI) .25mg. ?He has been taking these for 1.5 years and says they improve his sleep by about 20-30%. ?So far, he has noticed a dry mouth and occipital headaches in the morning which he thinks are side effects of the meds. ((( Possibly aggravated by the underlying yin xu))) > > TCM Dx: ? > Yin xu-Heat ?(Kd ->Ht) --> Heart Fire (((Or false heat going to the heart, if that's what you meant))) > ? Blood xu ? (assume that Liv Blood is not housing Shen) ((((I don't see the Blood xu. It would be nice to see a pale tongue or dry eyes or brittle nails or some other liver signs or Blood xu signs.))) > Sp/St xu and/or LI Heat > Liv Qi Stag (-->Ht Fire/St Fire) > early stage Yang xu because of Cold signs (????) please comment on this (((Yeah, this is possible, I'm in agreeement, not sure though.))) > I focussed my first Tx on: > Nourishing Yin, Blood and Fluids, Stopping sweat, Calm Shen, Mildly Move and Tonify constrained Qi, Drain HT and St Fire, Ton. Sp. and promote sleep > > Prescription: (((I'd start out with simply Tian Wang Bu Xin Dan and perhaps modify it a bit to make sure that it is assimilated okay if there are some Spleen/Stomach issues suspected. ))) > > Sheng di ?10 (in twbxd) > Shu di ?10 > Zhi mu ?5 > Suan zao ren ?15 (in twbxd) > Dan shen ?12 ?(in twbxd) > He huan hua ?12 > Fu shen ?12 > Wu Wei zi ?10 ?(in twbxd) > Fu xiao mai ?8 > Xi yang shen ?5 > Huang lian 9 > Zhi gan cao ?5 > Sheng jiang ?2 slices (((Everything here looks good to me, but I have to admit that my level of herbal expertise isn't quite a the point where I would be able to really critique this formula, I just like to start out with the old reliables such as Tian Wang Bu Xin Dan, and see what happens with the patient after a month or so.))) > Advice given so far: eat yin nourishing foods, stay off alcohol, coffee and spices. Try meditation which he has already started. (((Yeah, those warm drying foods can be a problem. If you have a chance to pick up the Clinical Handbook of Internal Medicine, but Maclean and Lyttleton, you can get some on-going feedback for cases such as this. It is the (two volume set) book that I use the most. There's a third volume on its way too.))) -- Al Stone L.Ac. http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. --__--__-- _ From yiddishtangofever at shaw.ca Sat Dec 28 16:33:19 2002 From: yiddishtangofever at shaw.ca (zoe sandell) Date: Tue Aug 10 07:18:28 2004 Subject: [Herb-students] chronic insomnia case References: <4ACB4F1E.63150DB0.0BF9F5C4@aol.com> Message-ID: <001501c2aeb8$bda4b9e0$d81c4518@gv.shawcable.net> Hi- I'm not regularily on the list but I have to comment on how effective I have found Tian wan bu xin dan. (For one if my patients that has also had chronic insomnia - Heart & Kidney miscommunication with heart fire/yin xu. . . ) That's all. . . Zoe ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, December 22, 2002 8:11 PM Subject: [Herb-students] chronic insomnia case > Thanks alot Al. It really helps to discuss this over with someone. I too thought of giving him Tian Wang Bu Xin Dan, but I felt that maybe it had too many yin tonics for someone whose digestion seemed a bit dodgy. I'll see how he responds to my formula and if you would like me to, I'll let you know how it goes. Btw, I also like the Maclean and Lyttleton books. > > Thx, SJ >