[Coco] newb: Can I use DriveWire with my CoCo 2?

[Aaron Wolfe]

On Sep 22, 2013 10:29 AM, "Bill Pierce" <ooogalapasooo at aol.com> wrote:
>
>
> Again,all the "links" defeat the purpose of a starter kit. Yes, there
needs to be a document with links to all things HDBDOS, NitrOS-9 and
DriveWire, this I understand and fully support. But the average "Joe
Plumber" is not going to go to several sites to download pieces parts of a
single working system. The people in charge of those sites need to handle
their end and it's not being done. This is why I suggest a starter kit with
all the basics AND a document explaining the advantages of learning the ins
and outs of the system to take full advantage of what is offered in the
repos/archives and with links to each of the sites of importance. This
package can be updated accordingly as needed... just as the software is...
There is no difference here. An update is an update.
>
> The beginner is not going to spend several hours learning "how" to build
ToolShed, or how to build NitrOS-9, which involves downloading many files
such as MinGW, Mercurial, then all their dependacies to make them work,
then learning the ins and outs of those systems, then building toolshed and
lwtools, then the build process (if the other goes well) of hdbdos and
nitros9, which by the way, takes quite a bit of time, then figuring out
what you just did and where it went, then installing it all into the format
needed to make it accessible for the Coco, then there's the learning curve
to NitrOS-9, HDBDOS, and DriveWire. And if all that goes well.... in a
couple of hours to a couple of days (according to your abillity to grasp
all this), you may just see a disk load. And further more, ALL of these
websites are poorly done, non-intuitive, with most links from hard to
impossible to find and almost NO documentation.
>  Wiki's?? Aaron come on... your Wiki for DW4 is over 5 years out of date
and you want me to refer someone to a Wiki to get the latest info? Get
real. Wikis are only as good as the people keeping them updated. The
NitrOS9 wiki JUST got updated from it's 5 year out-of-date state. The NOS9
repo "snapshot zip" downloads were from 2008 and unusable until just
recently. The same goes for toolshed downloads, and lwtools downloads. How
long before the next time people gripe enough that it all gets updated
again? How long before the person(s) doing the updates to it all get tired
of going to all the trouble and stop (again).
>
> I just took a note book and jotted down all the links it would take, from
start to finish, to get a complete HDBDOS/NitrOS-9/DriveWire system up and
running from nothing but a "bare" Coco and PC. There was over 30 links
needed and twice as many steps of installation and that's IF you already
have a serial to DB9 cable. Some links I had to search for. Yes, they are
there but how the hell do you find them? Like the link Tormod just gave.
The only place that link exists that I know of is in that email. If you
weren't on the list when it was sent, you missed it. There's no "public"
place to find it (I just looked at 5 related sites as well as googled it),
not even on the Toolshed website!. I completely understand anyone's
reluctance to learn any of it just so they can see TeleWriter run one more
time for old times sake or play with Basic09 the way they used to.
> And you wonder why so many people come here or on the FB page and ask
"How do I get DW running?", "How do I make an OS-9 boot disk?" or "where
can I find hdbdos?". Basically there's no single "public" info site where
all this can be found. Take the discussion just had on DW4/DW3, the
download is on CocoCoding, part of the directions in the "old" DW4 wiki,
some was on Cloud9 buried 3 links deep, the rest was passed by email ????
There are two constants I have found in all this, inconsistency and
obscurity. We are hoarders by nature and our development efforts show it!
>
> We, as programmers, engineers, and dedicated hobbyists, take all this for
granted and do not think twice about it. But for the most part, we are the
minority!
> Most of the people I have helped and I've helped many, did not care about
"building this" or "compiling that". They didn't know how nor did they want
to spend hours learning how. They just wanted to use their Coco as they did
in the 80s. Stick a disk in, type "RUN" or "DOS" and go for it.
> A few of them barely had the knowledge of how to click an icon on their
PC desktop much less build NitrOS9 or search the web for that one elusive
link to an hdbdos cassette file. Most will not even read what documentation
there is, much less search for more.
> I would put all this info up on my site but for some reason it's not
linked by any of the other Coco sites so what good would that do? Who would
find it? 80% of the links currently listed on ALL the Coco websites are
from 3 to 15 years old and non-existent. My site has been up for almost 4
years now and isn't going anywhere unless Google shuts it down. When that
happens I will find another site. All my files are in Dropbox which is also
not going anywhere too soon. The links to the files are clean with with ad
free downloads, no "MediaFire" or "FileShare" crap. I update my links often
as well as my webpages. I've been working on the Coco since 1984 and I
haven't gone anywhere either. I even had a Coco website up on AOL's old
free webspace from 1995 to about 2001 when I left AOL.
>
> With all that said... (I told you not to get me started:-P )
> I have started the "Starter Kit" and should have it done by sometime
later today or possibly tomorrow depending on my wife's "HoneyDoo" list. I
found my "roundtoit" under my huge stack of notes on MinGW, Mercurial,
Toolshed, LWtools, and building NitrOS9 which were all under the HoneyDoo
list. It rained all night so the grass is too wet to mow, the garbage went
yesterday, and she's playing World of Warcraft... so I may be good for a
few hours :-)
>

as far as I can tell, a user needs to visit only one site to find all info
and software required to use DW3 (cloud 9's page), and one additional site
if they wish to use DW4.  As of yesterday these two sites link and refer to
each other... is it really so complex as your description sounds?

I do appreciate the sentiment, but I worry that maintaining a premade
system will become a burden for you or lead to an even more complex
ecosystem in the future.  Proceed with caution but by all means proceed.

You mention that a wiki is only as good as the people keeping it updated.
I think this will apply to your planned binary package as well.  A wiki
does have the advantage of being designed specifically to allow multiple
people to contribute.  This can be a powerful weapon against the very
problems you discuss.  Of course, if no one contributes as in the case of
the DW4 wiki, things are no better than a static package.. probably worse
because the author holds out hope that someone will help instead of
accepting that they will have to do everything themselves ;)

The docs for software in the coco realm are really not so bad.  Drivewire 4
is probably the worst case, and thats because i just dont care too much
about doing documentation.. its not fun for me.  However the lwtools and
toolshed are extensively documented.  Williams docs for lwasm etc are very
very good.  The nitros9 system also has nice manuals and some third party
books available online.  I am not saying things are perfect, but i think
they are not horrible either.