[Coco] Why do a next Gen CoCo? was Any news on the so called CoCo4 or NextCoCo

[Aaron Wolfe]

Well, it is clear there are some who are committed to the idea of
using a general purpose PC running an emulator, and some who like the
FPGA approach.
And then we have Steve's project with the disk controller pak, which
is really cool although I'm not sure if it helps us get to a "coco 4"
type of situation.

Personally, I think emulators will never provide the CoCo experience
that FPGA does.  However, I do love using emulators when working on
Coco software, they are a very useful tool. I also certainly
understand the price issue.. if you can run the CoCo 4 without buying
any special hardware, it will be accessible to more people.  I have my
doubts about a hardware interface for emulators that would let you
connect real CoCo peripherals.  There is an awful lot of complexity
there, it's certainly over my head.  But, there are some who support
the idea of emulation and have said they aren't worried about
connecting peripherals anyway.

I love all things CoCo so even though I don't prefer it, I'm happy to
help make the emulator based coco 4 a success if I can.  What exactly
is holding up such a thing from happening?  We have at least three
nice emulators and have had them for years.  Is it just lacking
someone interested and skilled enough to start adding new features?
It's probably out of my league but if there was a list of ideas or
desired things, I'd try to help.

AFAIK, MESS is the only open source emulator, so the only option for
adding new things.  Unfortunately, the official MESS project probably
wouldn't be very interested in anything outside of emulating the
actual CoCo, and MESS already does a great job of that.  To add new
features in BASIC might be possible if it's just some changes in the
ROM image, since you can load any image you want, but changing the
emulated hardware would probably mean forking or maintaining a set of
patches to the mainline MESS.

Anyway, just some thoughts and want to let everyone on every side know
I'll be happy to help even if what you're up to isn't my preferred
solution :)

-Aaron



On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 12:50 PM, Frank Pittel <fwp at deepthought.com> wrote:
> Whether running on dedicated hardware or an emulator running under an OS like
> linux or windows the "coco4" will be emulated. I have a number of issues with the
> "pc emulator" approach. The first is that I don't run windows and the odds are
> that any pc emulator will be a windows app. I can get around that with virtualbox
> and possibly wine but that's proven to be a major pain with vcc and so I don't use
> it.
>
> Aonther thing to take into consideration is that we're not the board of directors
> of a corperation that will make a decision on how to proceed and then dictate that
> decision down to be implemented. My guess is that the limit of most of our
> involvement in the project will be to offer suggestions and act as alpha/beta
> testers. This means people will need to step up and actually develop the "coco4".
> To my knowledge the only work actually being done is on the fpga approach. The
> current goal there is to successfully and completely emulate the coco3 and when
> that's done I'm sure features will be added and the project will evolve. Much like
> Aaron has done with drivewire. He took something that had a specific role and
> added functionality and features.
>
> In my never humble opinion the coco3fpga project will evolve into the "coco4". If
> for the only reason that someone stepped up and started to actually do it.
>
> The Other Frank
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 08:51:11AM -0800, Steve Batson wrote:
>> I agree with Steve on this. I've followed this thread and others on the
>> topic for quite some time. I've commented a few times in the past.
>>
>> I really do think a good, solid emulator is the best option and here's my
>> reasons.
>>
>> 1) Can run and millions of available boxes that most people already have
>> and are cheap
>> 2) Can be made "Extensible" so that add-ons can be created for it to
>> continaully improve it. Can also be easily and cheaply upgraded without
>> constantly spending more on hardware.
>> 3) A card or USB device could allow simple connection to the PC to connect
>> to Coco specific devices
>> 4) Can take advantage of PC hardware, memory, storage, etc.
>> 5) Replacement parts are in abundance
>> 6) Emulator will live on much longer than the hardware.
>> 7) Software is much easier to mass produce the hardware and certainly much
>> easier and cheaper to distribute.
>>
>> Yes I know some whant the look and feel of a "Real Coco". Well then get a
>> netbook, package it in a coco case with a Coco I/O interface device to hook
>> up all the ports too. With the speed and power of today's processors and
>> hardware, there's absolutely no reason a well done emulator could not run
>> so well you would know it wasn't the real thing. William's Arcade Classics
>> that Jeff Vavasour worked on.
>>
>> I could go on and on. I'll just close this message with this. With the
>> disagreements of hardware vs. emulation, the hardware side always seems to
>> go to either look and feel of the "Real Coco" or some specialized board or
>> CHIP(s) that can be used. The big issue with the hardware is, that
>> eventually there won't be anyone with the knowledge of the Coco or the
>> desire to keep on creating solutions in terms of products or designs that
>> people can do themselves if they have the skills. If someone is dead set on
>> designing and building some hardware solution to meet their needs and
>> taste, more power to them. There's no reason that there must only be one
>> solution. Still, I think Emulation is the best choice for the reasons I
>> mentioned and some I'm sure I've missed.
>>
>> My 2 cents! :)
>>
>> ----------------------------------------
>>
>> From: "Steve Bjork" <6809er at srbsoftware.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 2:50 PM
>> To: "CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts" <coco at maltedmedia.com>
>> Subject: [Coco] Why do a next Gen CoCo? was Any news on the so called CoCo4
>> or NextCoCo
>>
>> I've been watching everyone speak their minds on what the next gen CoCo
>> should be. Pulling in four directions is getting nowhere, as some have
>> pointed out.
>>
>> But you are putting the horse before the buggy, literally.
>>
>> I don't hear is what you are planing to use this next gen CoCo for? In
>> other words, what will use it for when you are done?
>>
>> Are you trying to build a faster CoCo to run programs on?
>>
>> Oh, there is some talk about FPGA board approach can run programs about
>> 10 times faster. Big deal! I can build a Linux box for the price of a
>> FPGA board that will run software 1,000's times faster with better
>> graphics, sound and the Internet to boot. But the FPGA board has no (or
>> little) interface for CoCo hardware. (if I reading the messages right.)
>> Nor will it use any modern computer technology directly. Not much of a
>> next gen CoCo.
>>
>> Or are you trying to make modern technology accessible to the casual
>> CoCo programmer?
>>
>> This was one of the main goals of the CoCo4.com project. (Besides
>> making a CoCo emulator that could run on cheap modern computers.)
>>
>> The Super CoCo 4 BASIC was to support the new display graphic modes of a
>> modern Digital TV along with better and easy to use sound system. Add
>> in an easy to use (and understand) Internet command set (under BASIC) so
>> you can use the internet like a hardcore net programmer.
>>
>> As you can see, the CoCo4.com project was all about unlocking modern
>> computer technology in the same the computers did back in the 80's.
>> Something that modern computer designers just don't do any more.
>>
>> All I'm saying is to layout just what you want the new computer to do
>> before you put that time and $$$ into it.
>>
>> Steve Bjork
>>
>> On 11/18/2010 1:07 PM, jdaggett at gate.net wrote:
>> > Frank:
>> >
>> > This is my observation of where the COCO4 concept is at this point:
>> >
>> > The COCO4, what ever it is or will be, is like a person with ropes tied
>> to each arm and leg
>> > with four horses pulling in all different directions. Right now the DE-2
>> FPGA board approach
>> > is winning out and the rest is going to be left behind. Rip to shreads
>> and the pieces left for the
>> > buzzards to pick.
>> >
>> > Any other idea or suggestion will probably meet with some resistance and
>> really is not totally
>> > worth persueing. Unless it solves a personal niche, it probably is no
>> longer worth persueing.
>> >
>> > just my thoughts
>> > james
>> >
>> >
>> > On 18 Nov 2010 at 9:41, Frank Swygert wrote:
>> >
>> >> Still two camps -- hardware (FPGA) and software )streamlined
>> emulator/OS
>> >> combined). I'm of the software camp because it would be easier,
>> cheaper,
>> >> and quicker to accomplish. If you bought all new hardware cost would be
>> >> comparable, but even an old Pentium 1I computer can be had for a song
>> >> and would still have the computing power to emulate a CoCo at a
>> >> relatively high speed -- though there's no reason to go so far as a P1
>> >> when even P4 machines are relatively cheap now. And most of us have an
>> >> older board that would be great for this at little to no cost.
>> >>
>> >> What I really advocate is both -- do the streamlined emulator with an
>> >> advanced DECB and use it to develop a higher level Nitros, then put the
>> >> resulting "machine" in an FPGA hardware configuration. Both would be
>> >> compatible software wise, but for those who needed/wanted a compact
>> >> board it could be done. Of course the emulation/OS combo would run
>> >> easily on something like an ITX or embedded Intel board too.
>> >>
>> >> -------------
>> >> It's the attempt at a "coco4" by Steve b. that's dead. The dream lives
>> >> on!! :-)
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 08:29:28AM -0800, Steve Batson wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>> I know many would love to see a CoCo 4 come into existence, but I
>> >>> thought
>> >>>> the project was dead. Says it's dead on coco4.com
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Is there new info or activity on this, or just more discussion?
>> >>>>
>>
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