From mechacoco at gmail.com Tue Dec 2 01:01:38 2008 From: mechacoco at gmail.com (Darren A) Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 23:01:38 -0700 Subject: [Coco] announcement to reserve "CoCoNet" title In-Reply-To: <20081129232227.261DA20A15@qs281.pair.com> References: <20081129232227.261DA20A15@qs281.pair.com> Message-ID: <5d802cd0812012201ocac0b3iedb2f36108135dac@mail.gmail.com> On 11/29/08, Roger Taylor wrote: > As the subject says, I'm reserving the name CoCoNet for a new product > unless some other title exists in the CoCo world. > > -- > Roger Taylor A product with the name "CoCo Net" has been announced, but I believe Chuck has abandoned it: Darren From gmajor at videotron.ca Thu Dec 4 21:00:09 2008 From: gmajor at videotron.ca (Guillaume Major) Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 21:00:09 -0500 Subject: [Coco] 2 new AGI games Message-ID: Hi coco fans, I have adapted two more fan made AGI games for the coco: Time Quest and V Demo. Although they have the status of "demo", these games are very well done and contains good puzzles. You can download them at http://goyim.dyndns.org:8080/coco/Sierra.Games/ Enjoy! Guillaume From exwn8jef at gmail.com Thu Dec 4 23:36:21 2008 From: exwn8jef at gmail.com (N8WQ) Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2008 23:36:21 -0500 Subject: [Coco] 2 new AGI games In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4938AFC5.4040309@gmail.com> Guillaume, It is nice of you to put up the games for download. Thanks... Alan Guillaume Major wrote: > Hi coco fans, > > I have adapted two more fan made AGI games for the coco: Time Quest and V > Demo. Although they have the status of "demo", these games are very well > done and contains good puzzles. > > You can download them at http://goyim.dyndns.org:8080/coco/Sierra.Games/ > > Enjoy! > > Guillaume > > > > > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > > From operator at coco3.com Sat Dec 6 22:07:56 2008 From: operator at coco3.com (Roger Taylor) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2008 21:07:56 -0600 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet status Message-ID: <20081207030833.5788920A15@qs281.pair.com> As of 12/6/08, the CoCoNet project is moving forward quickly: CoCoNet is a base system patched into Disk BASIC 1.1 that allows you to mount virtual disks from your PC or the web (through the PC's connection), and also copy files from the PC or the web and put them on currently-mounted virtual disks. There's no need to move back and forth between the CoCo and PC. The PC server software gives what the CoCo asks for. some possible Disk BASIC 1.1 commands: DRIVE 0,"c:\any.dsk" DRIVE 0,"http://www.coco3.com/coconet/dsk/d01.dsk" (read-only) DRIVE 0,"d02" (automatically points to coco3.com coconet virtual disk folder) + ".dsk" DRIVE 0,"os9" (mounts os9.dsk stored on coco3.com/coconet server) DRIVE 0,"http://www.yourserver.com/nitros9.os9" --ability to turn virtual disks on/off (quickly grab internet files or PC files and port them instantly onto your mounted virtual disks) WLOAD "http://www.coco3.com/somegame.bin","game.bin" (automatic LOADM format) WLOAD "http://www.anyserver.com/calc.bas","calc.bas" (automatic ASCII or binary format detected) WLOAD "http://www.stocks.com/latest.dat","stocks.dat" Get the idea? Is all of this fast?? YES. 57600 bps on a CoCo 1 or 2, and 115200 bps on a CoCo 3 through the bitbanger port. USB serial dongles work great, with any COM#, not just 1 through 4. I use COM8 in my tests. an example of how you'd get an internet browser running: DRIVE 0,"d:\coconet.dsk" (yours or anybody elses HTML renderer program disk, stored on the PC) RUN "WWW" the WWW.BAS program would do something like: DRIVE 1,"d:\workdisk",FORMAT (or ,NEW) (doubles as a RAM Disk simulator) WLOAD 1,"http://www.coco3.com/index.php","index.htm" (copy web page onto disk 1) OPEN "I",1,"INDEX.HTM:1" and read the contents and process it. CLOSE 1 What about the possibility of: 10 WLOAD 1,"http://www.coco3.com/cgi-bin/cococafe.cgi","index.htm" (store a web file onto the DRIVE 1 virtual disk) 20 OPEN "I",1,"INDEX.HTM:1" and read the contents and process it. 999 GOTO 10 Get the idea? CoCoNet itself won't do any HTML rendering because it's not a web browser, but instead grab web files and PC files and store them on currently-mounted virtual disks. This base system gives SUPER power to the CoCo, but any ROM version would obviously cancel out any hard drive capable DOS you rely on. You'd have to use your MPI I suppose to switch between the various DOS'es you want to use. I'm working to get this on an EPROM as Disk BASIC 1.1 (patched) so it's *completely* ready to go on power up. No real floppy drives are required. -- Roger Taylor http://www.wordofthedayonline.com From mechacoco at gmail.com Sat Dec 6 23:29:07 2008 From: mechacoco at gmail.com (Darren A) Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2008 21:29:07 -0700 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet status In-Reply-To: <20081207030833.5788920A15@qs281.pair.com> References: <20081207030833.5788920A15@qs281.pair.com> Message-ID: <5d802cd0812062029l7a2e73c2h476adb33654f4cfd@mail.gmail.com> On 12/6/08, Roger Taylor wrote: > > > > Get the idea? Is all of this fast?? YES. 57600 bps on a CoCo 1 or > 2, and 115200 bps on a CoCo 3 through the bitbanger port. USB serial > dongles work great, with any COM#, not just 1 through 4. I use COM8 > in my tests. Roger, Have you tested this with a CoCo 1? Recent tests I've done have led me to the conclusion that the CoCo 1 hardware is not capable of transmitting 57600 bps through the bit banger port, although it can receive data at that speed. My guess is that the opamp used for the level translation to +/- 12 volts can't operate that fast. You will probably have to lower the transmission speed or specify a CoCo 2 as the minimum requirement. Darren From operator at coco3.com Sun Dec 7 00:45:05 2008 From: operator at coco3.com (Roger Taylor) Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2008 23:45:05 -0600 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet status In-Reply-To: <5d802cd0812062029l7a2e73c2h476adb33654f4cfd@mail.gmail.com > References: <20081207030833.5788920A15@qs281.pair.com> <5d802cd0812062029l7a2e73c2h476adb33654f4cfd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081207054527.3973E20A13@qs281.pair.com> At 10:29 PM 12/6/2008, you wrote: >Roger, > >Have you tested this with a CoCo 1? Recent tests I've done have led >me to the conclusion that the CoCo 1 hardware is not capable of >transmitting 57600 bps through the bit banger port, although it can >receive data at that speed. My guess is that the opamp used for the >level translation to +/- 12 volts can't operate that fast. You will >probably have to lower the transmission speed or specify a CoCo 2 as >the minimum requirement. > >Darren Noted. I have two CoCo 1's I will test on tonight. Btw, CoCoNet was just ROM'ed 5 minutes ago. The CoCo powers up CoCoNet READY! The ROM is in an EPROM Pak and no real floppy controller is connected. Problem is, it's a 27128 16K EPROM, so I'm not sure if this would work in a CoCo 3. This involved first CLOADM'ing a single-record version of the DOS patch which goes into all-RAM mode, patches DOS, executes some init routines, then I build the DOS overlay version from the Rainbow IDE, mount that virtual disk from the CoCo 2, copy the overlay.rom from the virtual disk onto the MPROM floppy disk, etc. etc. it took a while to figure out how I was going to do this. Now that Disk BASIC is CoCoNet patched, hopefully the development process will speed up greatly more. I realize that in order to produce CoCoNet that it would compete with DriveWire simply because it offers the ability to use virtual disks stored on a PC. What's more, no server interaction is required, and the option to use internet disks and import web files into the CoCo greatly makes this a completely different system. Items that were given to me over the past year for development purposes were the Super Controller, the MPROM board, and an EPROM Pak, and several ROM Pak PCB layouts I might consider when I get a run of boards made soon. Without my development software, the items donated, and the fact that I never give up, CoCoNet would remain only a what-if. That what-if is a what-is right now as I turn on the CoCo, type DIR, and see the last virtual disk I mounted 30 minutes ago, mounted from the CoCo, not the PC. -- Roger Taylor http://www.wordofthedayonline.com From operator at coco3.com Sun Dec 7 01:40:48 2008 From: operator at coco3.com (Roger Taylor) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2008 00:40:48 -0600 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet status In-Reply-To: <5d802cd0812062029l7a2e73c2h476adb33654f4cfd@mail.gmail.com > References: <20081207030833.5788920A15@qs281.pair.com> <5d802cd0812062029l7a2e73c2h476adb33654f4cfd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081207064110.BE48520A13@qs281.pair.com> At 10:29 PM 12/6/2008, you wrote: >Have you tested this with a CoCo 1? Recent tests I've done have led >me to the conclusion that the CoCo 1 hardware is not capable of >transmitting 57600 bps through the bit banger port, although it can >receive data at that speed. My guess is that the opamp used for the >level translation to +/- 12 volts can't operate that fast. You will >probably have to lower the transmission speed or specify a CoCo 2 as >the minimum requirement. > >Darren 115200 bps was just confirmed on the CoCo *2*. I couldn't do this with the tape version of CoCoNet because it runs in all-RAM mode on the 2, which doesn't allow the 2mhz POKE to work. Now in ROM, it works. I surely hope the CoCo 1's don't have an issue like you said. Giving an old gray CoCo internet access is what I aim for. I'm not sure if I have enough space to put 38400 bps routines in, but if needed I'll optimize the best I can and try to squeeze it in. -- Roger Taylor http://www.wordofthedayonline.com From flexser at fiu.edu Sun Dec 7 06:55:07 2008 From: flexser at fiu.edu (Art Flexser) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 06:55:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet status In-Reply-To: <20081207054527.3973E20A13@qs281.pair.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Dec 2008, Roger Taylor wrote: > > Btw, CoCoNet was just ROM'ed 5 minutes ago. The CoCo powers up > CoCoNet READY! The ROM is in an EPROM Pak and no real floppy > controller is connected. Problem is, it's a 27128 16K EPROM, so I'm > not sure if this would work in a CoCo 3. > If you need to have Super Extended Basic available on the CoCo 3, you can use the same approach I used for Extended ADOS-3, which resides in a 27128. When you need to call a ROM routine that is in the upper 8K of your EPROM, you switch to ROM mode first, and switch back to ROM/RAM mode on the return from the routine (to somewhere not in the upper 8K) to re-enable Super Ext. Basic. (Have your ROM test whether it is running on a CoCo 3 during initialization, and do this only if a CoCo 3 is being used.) Art From georgeramsower at gmail.com Sun Dec 7 10:59:01 2008 From: georgeramsower at gmail.com (George Ramsower) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 09:59:01 -0600 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet status References: <20081207030833.5788920A15@qs281.pair.com> Message-ID: <001b01c95884$b94739f0$6401a8c0@OLDGEORGE> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Taylor" > As of 12/6/08, the CoCoNet project is moving forward quickly: > > CoCoNet is a base system patched into Disk BASIC 1.1 that allows you to > mount virtual disks from your PC or the web (through the PC's connection), > and also copy files from the PC or the web and put them on > currently-mounted virtual disks. There's no need to move back and forth > between the CoCo and PC. The PC server software gives what the CoCo asks > for. > I'm wondering if something like this could be made to handle OS-9 and use a PC to be the drive for the OS. This would be very nice to eliminate the need for a floppy or hard drive. Of course, I understand that OS-9 would need a driver to deal with this. It wouldn't bother me a bit to make a coco a slave to a PC if the PC could act as a mass storage device with OS-9 as the OS for the coco. Of course, a new ROM would be in order to make the boot happen. Since my PC is almost always on, this could work for me. It would seem that even a CC One (64K) could benefit from this even if it did work a little slower. No disk drives at all ! George, dreaming. From operator at coco3.com Sun Dec 7 12:55:51 2008 From: operator at coco3.com (Roger Taylor) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2008 11:55:51 -0600 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet status In-Reply-To: References: <20081207054527.3973E20A13@qs281.pair.com> Message-ID: <20081207175614.D883720A16@qs281.pair.com> At 05:55 AM 12/7/2008, you wrote: >On Sat, 6 Dec 2008, Roger Taylor wrote: > > > > > Btw, CoCoNet was just ROM'ed 5 minutes ago. The CoCo powers up > > CoCoNet READY! The ROM is in an EPROM Pak and no real floppy > > controller is connected. Problem is, it's a 27128 16K EPROM, so I'm > > not sure if this would work in a CoCo 3. > > > >If you need to have Super Extended Basic available on the CoCo 3, you can use >the same approach I used for Extended ADOS-3, which resides in a 27128. When >you need to call a ROM routine that is in the upper 8K of your >EPROM, you switch >to ROM mode first, and switch back to ROM/RAM mode on the return from the >routine (to somewhere not in the upper 8K) to re-enable Super Ext. Basic. >(Have your ROM test whether it is running on a CoCo 3 during >initialization, and >do this only if a CoCo 3 is being used.) > >Art It seems like this should work on any CoCo using the same code. Is there a reason why I should check whether it's a CoCo 3 or not? I can understand if I'm having to use the GIME to do internal/external ROM switching and so forth to access the upper 16K of my ROM then CoCo 1,2 <> 3 checking might be necessary. -- Roger Taylor http://www.wordofthedayonline.com From mechacoco at gmail.com Sun Dec 7 13:31:02 2008 From: mechacoco at gmail.com (Darren A) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 11:31:02 -0700 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet status In-Reply-To: <20081207175614.D883720A16@qs281.pair.com> References: <20081207054527.3973E20A13@qs281.pair.com> <20081207175614.D883720A16@qs281.pair.com> Message-ID: <5d802cd0812071031m2f9a3060gf76edd1757daa896@mail.gmail.com> On 12/7/08, Roger Taylor rwrote: >> >>If you need to have Super Extended Basic available on the CoCo 3, you can >> use >>the same approach I used for Extended ADOS-3, which resides in a 27128. >> When >>you need to call a ROM routine that is in the upper 8K of your >>EPROM, you switch >>to ROM mode first, and switch back to ROM/RAM mode on the return from the >>routine (to somewhere not in the upper 8K) to re-enable Super Ext. Basic. >>(Have your ROM test whether it is running on a CoCo 3 during >>initialization, and >>do this only if a CoCo 3 is being used.) >> >>Art > > > It seems like this should work on any CoCo using the same code. Is > there a reason why I should check whether it's a CoCo 3 or not? I > can understand if I'm having to use the GIME to do internal/external > ROM switching and so forth to access the upper 16K of my ROM then > CoCo 1,2 <> 3 checking might be necessary. > > -- > Roger Taylor I think the reason is that on a CoCo 3, you will be running in ALL RAM mode. The lower 8K of your EPROM ($C000-$DFFF) will have been copied to RAM, but the upper 8K will not. When you need to call a routine in the upper 8K, you first switch to ROM/RAM mode. When the call returns you switch back to ALL RAM mode. On a CoCo 1 or 2 with less than 64K RAM you will not be able to copy your code from ROM to RAM, so doing the switch back to ALL RAM mode would be deadly. Darren From operator at coco3.com Sun Dec 7 16:52:13 2008 From: operator at coco3.com (Roger Taylor) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2008 15:52:13 -0600 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet status In-Reply-To: <001b01c95884$b94739f0$6401a8c0@OLDGEORGE> References: <20081207030833.5788920A15@qs281.pair.com> <001b01c95884$b94739f0$6401a8c0@OLDGEORGE> Message-ID: <20081207215349.3265E20A13@qs281.pair.com> At 09:59 AM 12/7/2008, you wrote: >----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Taylor" > >>As of 12/6/08, the CoCoNet project is moving forward quickly: >> >>CoCoNet is a base system patched into Disk BASIC 1.1 that allows >>you to mount virtual disks from your PC or the web (through the >>PC's connection), and also copy files from the PC or the web and >>put them on currently-mounted virtual disks. There's no need to >>move back and forth between the CoCo and PC. The PC server >>software gives what the CoCo asks for. > > >I'm wondering if something like this could be made to handle OS-9 >and use a PC to be the drive for the OS. >This would be very nice to eliminate the need for a floppy or hard >drive. Of course, I understand that OS-9 would need a driver to >deal with this. >It wouldn't bother me a bit to make a coco a slave to a PC if the PC >could act as a mass storage device with OS-9 as the OS for the coco. >Of course, a new ROM would be in order to make the boot happen. > Since my PC is almost always on, this could work for me. >It would seem that even a CC One (64K) could benefit from this even >if it did work a little slower. No disk drives at all ! >George, dreaming. The OS-9 software clock would fall behind since IRQ and FIRQ are disabled periodically and frequently based on the serial port traffic, but other than that I see no reason why my protocol couldn't be used. I'm not sure what would be involved in putting the minimal sector reader in the OS-9 boot code. As for having no disk drives, there's going to be a small percentage of software out there that will always be incompatible with systems like these because they contain their own hardware floppy drive code. If you keep your real drives connected, you can still run real disk software as usual. -- Roger Taylor http://www.wordofthedayonline.com From operator at coco3.com Sun Dec 7 17:14:56 2008 From: operator at coco3.com (Roger Taylor) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2008 16:14:56 -0600 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet status In-Reply-To: <5d802cd0812071031m2f9a3060gf76edd1757daa896@mail.gmail.com > References: <20081207054527.3973E20A13@qs281.pair.com> <20081207175614.D883720A16@qs281.pair.com> <5d802cd0812071031m2f9a3060gf76edd1757daa896@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081207221519.0F42D20A13@qs281.pair.com> At 12:31 PM 12/7/2008, you wrote: > > It seems like this should work on any CoCo using the same code. Is > > there a reason why I should check whether it's a CoCo 3 or not? I > > can understand if I'm having to use the GIME to do internal/external > > ROM switching and so forth to access the upper 16K of my ROM then > > CoCo 1,2 <> 3 checking might be necessary. > >I think the reason is that on a CoCo 3, you will be running in ALL RAM >mode. The lower 8K of your EPROM ($C000-$DFFF) will have been copied >to RAM, but the upper 8K will not. When you need to call a routine in >the upper 8K, you first switch to ROM/RAM mode. When the call returns >you switch back to ALL RAM mode. On a CoCo 1 or 2 with less than 64K >RAM you will not be able to copy your code from ROM to RAM, so doing >the switch back to ALL RAM mode would be deadly. > >Darren I was overlooking the fact that it's preferred for the 64k CoCo 1/2 to run from ROM mode since the ~2mhz/115200 bps mode won't work in all RAM mode. Right now the system doesn't need more than the upper free portion of the Disk BASIC code, but I can think of a bunch of cool stuff to fill the extra 8K with like a nice PC/web explorer so you can use the arrow-keys or joystick/mouse to select the virtual disk you want to mount for each drive. I might be able to get this in without using the extra 8K... sort of like a BIOS screen so the next time you boot, the server will throw back a configuration real quick. -- Roger Taylor http://www.wordofthedayonline.com From flexser at fiu.edu Sun Dec 7 17:38:13 2008 From: flexser at fiu.edu (Art Flexser) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 17:38:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet status In-Reply-To: <20081207175614.D883720A16@qs281.pair.com> Message-ID: The only reason to check if it's a CoCo 3 would be so that you know NOT to switch it back to RAM mode if it's a CoCo 1/2. Perhaps a better approach than checking at initialization whether it's a CoCo 3 would be to have the calling routine check whether you're currently in ROM mode or RAM mode, and have it restore that on exit, which should work on any CoCo. (That's what Ext. ADOS-3 actually does. I have a subroutine that does the actual calling that takes the address in the upper ROM as an argument and which performs the necessary housekeeping chores necessary to restore the initial state on exit.) Art On Sun, 7 Dec 2008, Roger Taylor wrote: > At 05:55 AM 12/7/2008, you wrote: > >On Sat, 6 Dec 2008, Roger Taylor wrote: > > > > > > > > Btw, CoCoNet was just ROM'ed 5 minutes ago. The CoCo powers up > > > CoCoNet READY! The ROM is in an EPROM Pak and no real floppy > > > controller is connected. Problem is, it's a 27128 16K EPROM, so I'm > > > not sure if this would work in a CoCo 3. > > > > > > >If you need to have Super Extended Basic available on the CoCo 3, you can use > >the same approach I used for Extended ADOS-3, which resides in a 27128. When > >you need to call a ROM routine that is in the upper 8K of your > >EPROM, you switch > >to ROM mode first, and switch back to ROM/RAM mode on the return from the > >routine (to somewhere not in the upper 8K) to re-enable Super Ext. Basic. > >(Have your ROM test whether it is running on a CoCo 3 during > >initialization, and > >do this only if a CoCo 3 is being used.) > > > >Art > > > It seems like this should work on any CoCo using the same code. Is > there a reason why I should check whether it's a CoCo 3 or not? I > can understand if I'm having to use the GIME to do internal/external > ROM switching and so forth to access the upper 16K of my ROM then > CoCo 1,2 <> 3 checking might be necessary. > > -- > Roger Taylor > > http://www.wordofthedayonline.com > > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > From dml_68 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 7 19:39:16 2008 From: dml_68 at yahoo.com (Derek) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 16:39:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Coco] 2 new AGI games In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <406827.49932.qm@web30207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Most excellent!! Thank you for your work Guillaume Major wrote: Hi coco fans, I have adapted two more fan made AGI games for the coco: Time Quest and V Demo. Although they have the status of "demo", these games are very well done and contains good puzzles. You can download them at http://goyim.dyndns.org:8080/coco/Sierra.Games/ Enjoy! Guillaume -- Coco mailing list Coco at maltedmedia.com http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco ** Mistrust Authority. Promote Decentralization ** From chadbh74 at hotmail.com Sun Dec 7 22:12:41 2008 From: chadbh74 at hotmail.com (Chad H) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 21:12:41 -0600 Subject: [Coco] 2 new AGI games In-Reply-To: <406827.49932.qm@web30207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <406827.49932.qm@web30207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Looks like you have some good files there but getting slow transfer rates. You hosting from a PC? I could offer a place to mirror the files if you like. - Chad -----Original Message----- From: coco-bounces at maltedmedia.com [mailto:coco-bounces at maltedmedia.com] On Behalf Of Derek Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 6:39 PM To: CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts Subject: Re: [Coco] 2 new AGI games Most excellent!! Thank you for your work Guillaume Major wrote: Hi coco fans, I have adapted two more fan made AGI games for the coco: Time Quest and V Demo. Although they have the status of "demo", these games are very well done and contains good puzzles. You can download them at http://goyim.dyndns.org:8080/coco/Sierra.Games/ Enjoy! Guillaume -- Coco mailing list Coco at maltedmedia.com http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco ** Mistrust Authority. Promote Decentralization ** -- Coco mailing list Coco at maltedmedia.com http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco From operator at coco3.com Sun Dec 7 23:08:12 2008 From: operator at coco3.com (Roger Taylor) Date: Sun, 07 Dec 2008 22:08:12 -0600 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet status In-Reply-To: <5d802cd0812062029l7a2e73c2h476adb33654f4cfd@mail.gmail.com > References: <20081207030833.5788920A15@qs281.pair.com> <5d802cd0812062029l7a2e73c2h476adb33654f4cfd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081208040835.D7A4620A13@qs281.pair.com> At 10:29 PM 12/6/2008, you wrote: >Have you tested this with a CoCo 1? Recent tests I've done have led >me to the conclusion that the CoCo 1 hardware is not capable of >transmitting 57600 bps through the bit banger port, although it can >receive data at that speed. My guess is that the opamp used for the >level translation to +/- 12 volts can't operate that fast. You will >probably have to lower the transmission speed or specify a CoCo 2 as >the minimum requirement. > >Darren If time allows tomorrow, two CoCo 1's will be tested with CoCoNet. As of tonight I have error-free 57.6 kbps and 115.2 kbps on a CoCo 2. A 50-retry counter was just added, although even before I added that I ran a looping random sector test for 12 hours straight without CRC checking and woke up to see the test program reporting no errors. The latest EPROM was just burned, I put it in the ROM Pak, turned the CoCo on, typed DIR, and got a directory before the ENTER key was completely pushed down. :) I then typed DRIVE 0,"D01" DIR and within 2 seconds the directory listed for the d01.dsk image stored in CoCo3.com's CoCoNet disk folder. I set up that folder as a default for CoCoNet even though a full http:// URL can be used to point to any image on the web. It gets copied to the server once per DRIVE command, so the disk access speed is the same as a mounted PC virtual disk, and both are way faster than a real floppy disk. You're probably wondering what happens if you mount a web disk and type DIR right away while the server is still downloading the disk. The CoCo waits it out just like it does when a controller is seeking a track or if a drive is off. It only takes a few seconds or more for a web disk to be mounted, though. Still more testing: WLOAD/DLOAD web files onto a mounted virtual disk. This is where CoCoNet will SHINE. I'm debating whether to try the disk posting feature where CoCo user 1 could send a mounted disk to a place on the web where CoCo user 2 could mount it. User 2 could make changes to the disk as usual, post the disk, user 1 could type DIR and see the changes, and so forth. It's just an idea and probably needs to be well thought out before jumping in. -- Roger Taylor http://www.wordofthedayonline.com From chadbh74 at hotmail.com Sun Dec 7 23:23:01 2008 From: chadbh74 at hotmail.com (Chad H) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 22:23:01 -0600 Subject: [Coco] CoCo Files repository Message-ID: Hi, many of us have personal collections of .PDF manuals, .DSK softwares and other nick nacks we would like to share but keep having to find a good place to host the files. Some I have seen use RapidShare, others I've seen host right from their own PC (I used to do this.) Unfortunately these have their limitations and problems. It so happens I have a personal server with 30+ gigs of space unallocated at the moment and I'm offering the space as a sort of CoCo repository, if anyone is interested. The files people upload there will be available to the rest of the community. Please let me know your thoughts on this. Upload: ftp://excalibur1.net username: cocoshare password:share This is the upload point. Once the files are received I will evaluate them to make sure they are appropriate for the CoCo repository and not just someone fooling around. Then I will move them to the permanent HTTP share point at http://excalibur1.net/coco From badfrog at gmail.com Sun Dec 7 23:30:36 2008 From: badfrog at gmail.com (Sean) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 22:30:36 -0600 Subject: [Coco] CoCo Files repository In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9efa17da0812072030o563d74f3m48e70851bf296526@mail.gmail.com> It's very generous of you to do that! I think for the most part everyone has the same trade off with the repository vs. the upload speed. I just got rid of my static IP, so I can't host any longer. (I had business DSL, but they refused to admit they had problems with the wire) My download speed is about 5x was DSL was, but I can't have any more web servers in my basement. On Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 10:23 PM, Chad H wrote: > Hi, many of us have personal collections of .PDF manuals, .DSK softwares and > other nick nacks we would like to share but keep having to find a good place > to host the files. Some I have seen use RapidShare, others I've seen host > right from their own PC (I used to do this.) Unfortunately these have their > limitations and problems. > > > > It so happens I have a personal server with 30+ gigs of space unallocated at > the moment and I'm offering the space as a sort of CoCo repository, if > anyone is interested. The files people upload there will be available to > the rest of the community. Please let me know your thoughts on this. > > > > Upload: > > ftp://excalibur1.net username: cocoshare > password:share > > This is the upload point. Once the files are received I will evaluate them > > to make sure they are appropriate for the CoCo repository and not just > > someone fooling around. Then I will move them to the permanent > > HTTP share point at http://excalibur1.net/coco > > > > > > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > From chadbh74 at hotmail.com Sun Dec 7 23:33:00 2008 From: chadbh74 at hotmail.com (Chad H) Date: Sun, 7 Dec 2008 22:33:00 -0600 Subject: [Coco] CoCo Files repository In-Reply-To: <9efa17da0812072030o563d74f3m48e70851bf296526@mail.gmail.com> References: <9efa17da0812072030o563d74f3m48e70851bf296526@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes, when I hosted via home PC it was over my DSL then cable connection. This is a permanent server. Upload speeds will be dependent upon your ISP connection at your end of course, but the download speeds should be comparable to what one would achieve from any other web site. - Chad -----Original Message----- From: coco-bounces at maltedmedia.com [mailto:coco-bounces at maltedmedia.com] On Behalf Of Sean Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 10:31 PM To: CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts Subject: Re: [Coco] CoCo Files repository It's very generous of you to do that! I think for the most part everyone has the same trade off with the repository vs. the upload speed. I just got rid of my static IP, so I can't host any longer. (I had business DSL, but they refused to admit they had problems with the wire) My download speed is about 5x was DSL was, but I can't have any more web servers in my basement. On Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 10:23 PM, Chad H wrote: > Hi, many of us have personal collections of .PDF manuals, .DSK softwares and > other nick nacks we would like to share but keep having to find a good place > to host the files. Some I have seen use RapidShare, others I've seen host > right from their own PC (I used to do this.) Unfortunately these have their > limitations and problems. > > > > It so happens I have a personal server with 30+ gigs of space unallocated at > the moment and I'm offering the space as a sort of CoCo repository, if > anyone is interested. The files people upload there will be available to > the rest of the community. Please let me know your thoughts on this. > > > > Upload: > > ftp://excalibur1.net username: cocoshare > password:share > > This is the upload point. Once the files are received I will evaluate them > > to make sure they are appropriate for the CoCo repository and not just > > someone fooling around. Then I will move them to the permanent > > HTTP share point at http://excalibur1.net/coco > > > > > > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > -- Coco mailing list Coco at maltedmedia.com http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco From mdelyea at gmail.com Mon Dec 8 08:29:30 2008 From: mdelyea at gmail.com (mike delyea) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 08:29:30 -0500 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet status In-Reply-To: <20081208040835.D7A4620A13@qs281.pair.com> References: <20081207030833.5788920A15@qs281.pair.com> <5d802cd0812062029l7a2e73c2h476adb33654f4cfd@mail.gmail.com> <20081208040835.D7A4620A13@qs281.pair.com> Message-ID: <1b52e6c80812080529w3400a13j8e7fb6c135edd24c@mail.gmail.com> Roger, just a quick question. Will this also be available on a coco floppy? On Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 11:08 PM, Roger Taylor wrote: > At 10:29 PM 12/6/2008, you wrote: > >> Have you tested this with a CoCo 1? Recent tests I've done have led >> me to the conclusion that the CoCo 1 hardware is not capable of >> transmitting 57600 bps through the bit banger port, although it can >> receive data at that speed. My guess is that the opamp used for the >> level translation to +/- 12 volts can't operate that fast. You will >> probably have to lower the transmission speed or specify a CoCo 2 as >> the minimum requirement. >> >> Darren > > If time allows tomorrow, two CoCo 1's will be tested with CoCoNet. As of > tonight I have error-free 57.6 kbps and 115.2 kbps on a CoCo 2. A 50-retry > counter was just added, although even before I added that I ran a looping > random sector test for 12 hours straight without CRC checking and woke up to > see the test program reporting no errors. > > The latest EPROM was just burned, I put it in the ROM Pak, turned the CoCo > on, typed DIR, and got a directory before the ENTER key was completely > pushed down. :) > I then typed DRIVE 0,"D01" DIR and within 2 seconds the directory listed > for the d01.dsk image stored in CoCo3.com's CoCoNet disk folder. I set up > that folder as a default for CoCoNet even though a full http:// URL can be > used to point to any image on the web. It gets copied to the server once > per DRIVE command, so the disk access speed is the same as a mounted PC > virtual disk, and both are way faster than a real floppy disk. You're > probably wondering what happens if you mount a web disk and type DIR right > away while the server is still downloading the disk. The CoCo waits it out > just like it does when a controller is seeking a track or if a drive is off. > It only takes a few seconds or more for a web disk to be mounted, though. > > Still more testing: WLOAD/DLOAD web files onto a mounted virtual disk. This > is where CoCoNet will SHINE. > > I'm debating whether to try the disk posting feature where CoCo user 1 could > send a mounted disk to a place on the web where CoCo user 2 could mount it. > User 2 could make changes to the disk as usual, post the disk, user 1 could > type DIR and see the changes, and so forth. It's just an idea and probably > needs to be well thought out before jumping in. > > -- > Roger Taylor > > http://www.wordofthedayonline.com > > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > From jcewy at swbell.net Mon Dec 8 14:16:33 2008 From: jcewy at swbell.net (Joel Ewy) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2008 13:16:33 -0600 Subject: [Coco] CoCo Files repository In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <493D7291.3090100@swbell.net> Chad H wrote: > Hi, many of us have personal collections of .PDF manuals, .DSK softwares and > other nick nacks we would like to share but keep having to find a good place > to host the files. Some I have seen use RapidShare, others I've seen host > right from their own PC (I used to do this.) Unfortunately these have their > limitations and problems. > > > > It so happens I have a personal server with 30+ gigs of space unallocated at > the moment and I'm offering the space as a sort of CoCo repository, if > anyone is interested. The files people upload there will be available to > the rest of the community. Please let me know your thoughts on this. > > > Looks pretty good to me! JCE > Upload: > > ftp://excalibur1.net username: cocoshare > password:share > > This is the upload point. Once the files are received I will evaluate them > > to make sure they are appropriate for the CoCo repository and not just > > someone fooling around. Then I will move them to the permanent > > HTTP share point at http://excalibur1.net/coco > > > > > > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > > From gmajor at videotron.ca Mon Dec 8 15:13:02 2008 From: gmajor at videotron.ca (Guillaume Major) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 15:13:02 -0500 Subject: [Coco] 2 new AGI games References: <406827.49932.qm@web30207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Looks like you have some good files there but getting slow transfer rates. > You hosting from a PC? > I could offer a place to mirror the files if you like. > - Chad Yes. The files are hosted on a PC at home on my internet cable connection which is limited to 128kb/s upstream. You have my permission to mirror my files. Thank you for your coco files repository. It will help the coco community sharing the Rainbow scans. What kind of download speed can we get from your server? Guillaume From Torsten at Dittel.info Mon Dec 8 18:11:10 2008 From: Torsten at Dittel.info (Torsten Dittel) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 00:11:10 +0100 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet status In-Reply-To: <5d802cd0812062029l7a2e73c2h476adb33654f4cfd@mail.gmail.com> References: <20081207030833.5788920A15@qs281.pair.com> <5d802cd0812062029l7a2e73c2h476adb33654f4cfd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Darren A schrieb: > Have you tested this with a CoCo 1? Recent tests I've done have led > me to the conclusion that the CoCo 1 hardware is not capable of > transmitting 57600 bps through the bit banger port, although it can > receive data at that speed. My guess is that the opamp used for the > level translation to +/- 12 volts can't operate that fast. You will > probably have to lower the transmission speed or specify a CoCo 2 as > the minimum requirement. I darkly remember, when my father once tried to run the bit banger MIDI OUT of LYRA on his CoCo1 (first board, Serial#338), it didn't work (unlike my CoCo 2B). He then figured out with a scope, that single bits at the bit banger port (e.g. the "1" in "00001000") were "triangles" with lower amplitude (than the expected "rectangle" should have), because the slopes weren't rapid enough. He exchanged a little chip (8 pin DIP?) by a compatible faster one (port driver? Would have to look that up in the schematics) and it worked! (Well, there is a mistake in the LYRA MIDI driver which led to some errors, but that's another story). Regards, Torsten From mechacoco at gmail.com Mon Dec 8 18:47:21 2008 From: mechacoco at gmail.com (Darren A) Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 16:47:21 -0700 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet status In-Reply-To: References: <20081207030833.5788920A15@qs281.pair.com> <5d802cd0812062029l7a2e73c2h476adb33654f4cfd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5d802cd0812081547y6690e11asa0e83ece2f36e254@mail.gmail.com> On 12/8/08, wrote: > > I darkly remember, when my father once tried to run the bit banger MIDI > OUT of LYRA on his CoCo1 (first board, Serial#338), it didn't work > (unlike my CoCo 2B). He then figured out with a scope, that single bits > at the bit banger port (e.g. the "1" in "00001000") were "triangles" > with lower amplitude (than the expected "rectangle" should have), > because the slopes weren't rapid enough. He exchanged a little chip (8 > pin DIP?) by a compatible faster one (port driver? Would have to look > that up in the schematics) and it worked! (Well, there is a mistake in > the LYRA MIDI driver which led to some errors, but that's another story). > That sounds very much like the problem I have been seeing. I don't have a scope, but after looking at the CoCo 1 schematic and seeing that it uses a 741C opamp (the little 8 pin chip) for the RS-232 level translation, seeing "triangles" sure would make sense. The 741C opamp has a slew rate of 0.5 volts per microsecond, so a transition from a '1' to a '0' (or vise-vera) should appear as a slope over a period of several microseconds. This slew rate is not fast enough to support 56kbps through the bit banger output. The input circuit is capable of operating at 56kbps. Darren From operator at coco3.com Mon Dec 8 20:08:55 2008 From: operator at coco3.com (Roger Taylor) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2008 19:08:55 -0600 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet status, almost 1 million sectors read without errors In-Reply-To: <1b52e6c80812080529w3400a13j8e7fb6c135edd24c@mail.gmail.com > References: <20081207030833.5788920A15@qs281.pair.com> <5d802cd0812062029l7a2e73c2h476adb33654f4cfd@mail.gmail.com> <20081208040835.D7A4620A13@qs281.pair.com> <1b52e6c80812080529w3400a13j8e7fb6c135edd24c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081209010948.2513720A15@qs281.pair.com> At 07:29 AM 12/8/2008, you wrote: >Roger, just a quick question. Will this also be available on a coco floppy? Might as well. It needs to be offered on any media needed by the user. Ready for some good news, guys? I started last night's test about 10:30pm or so, and it's 7:02pm the next day, 716,000+ sectors have been read at 115.2 kbps on a CoCo 2 without errors. Sometime tonight 1 million sectors would have been read without any errors, which is what I call "satisfactory". At this point I can leave the low-level serial code alone and work on the wrapper and protocol code for making all the neat things happen you'd expect over a network between two computers. >On Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 11:08 PM, Roger Taylor wrote: > > At 10:29 PM 12/6/2008, you wrote: > > > >> Have you tested this with a CoCo 1? Recent tests I've done have led > >> me to the conclusion that the CoCo 1 hardware is not capable of > >> transmitting 57600 bps through the bit banger port, although it can > >> receive data at that speed. My guess is that the opamp used for the > >> level translation to +/- 12 volts can't operate that fast. You will > >> probably have to lower the transmission speed or specify a CoCo 2 as > >> the minimum requirement. > >> > >> Darren > > > > If time allows tomorrow, two CoCo 1's will be tested with CoCoNet. As of > > tonight I have error-free 57.6 kbps and 115.2 kbps on a CoCo 2. A 50-retry > > counter was just added, although even before I added that I ran a looping > > random sector test for 12 hours straight without CRC checking and > woke up to > > see the test program reporting no errors. > > > > The latest EPROM was just burned, I put it in the ROM Pak, turned the CoCo > > on, typed DIR, and got a directory before the ENTER key was completely > > pushed down. :) > > I then typed DRIVE 0,"D01" DIR and within 2 seconds the directory listed > > for the d01.dsk image stored in CoCo3.com's CoCoNet disk folder. I set up > > that folder as a default for CoCoNet even though a full http:// URL can be > > used to point to any image on the web. It gets copied to the server once > > per DRIVE command, so the disk access speed is the same as a mounted PC > > virtual disk, and both are way faster than a real floppy disk. You're > > probably wondering what happens if you mount a web disk and type DIR right > > away while the server is still downloading the disk. The CoCo waits it out > > just like it does when a controller is seeking a track or if a > drive is off. > > It only takes a few seconds or more for a web disk to be mounted, though. > > > > Still more testing: WLOAD/DLOAD web files onto a mounted virtual > disk. This > > is where CoCoNet will SHINE. > > > > I'm debating whether to try the disk posting feature where CoCo > user 1 could > > send a mounted disk to a place on the web where CoCo user 2 could mount it. > > User 2 could make changes to the disk as usual, post the disk, > user 1 could > > type DIR and see the changes, and so forth. It's just an idea and probably > > needs to be well thought out before jumping in. > > > > -- > > Roger Taylor > > > > http://www.wordofthedayonline.com > > > > > > -- > > Coco mailing list > > Coco at maltedmedia.com > > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > > > >-- >Coco mailing list >Coco at maltedmedia.com >http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco -- Roger Taylor http://www.wordofthedayonline.com From operator at coco3.com Mon Dec 8 20:28:13 2008 From: operator at coco3.com (Roger Taylor) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2008 19:28:13 -0600 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet status In-Reply-To: <5d802cd0812081547y6690e11asa0e83ece2f36e254@mail.gmail.com > References: <20081207030833.5788920A15@qs281.pair.com> <5d802cd0812062029l7a2e73c2h476adb33654f4cfd@mail.gmail.com> <5d802cd0812081547y6690e11asa0e83ece2f36e254@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081209013045.C579220A13@qs281.pair.com> At 05:47 PM 12/8/2008, you wrote: >On 12/8/08, wrote: > > > > I darkly remember, when my father once tried to run the bit banger MIDI > > OUT of LYRA on his CoCo1 (first board, Serial#338), it didn't work > > (unlike my CoCo 2B). He then figured out with a scope, that single bits > > at the bit banger port (e.g. the "1" in "00001000") were "triangles" > > with lower amplitude (than the expected "rectangle" should have), > > because the slopes weren't rapid enough. He exchanged a little chip (8 > > pin DIP?) by a compatible faster one (port driver? Would have to look > > that up in the schematics) and it worked! (Well, there is a mistake in > > the LYRA MIDI driver which led to some errors, but that's another story). > > > >That sounds very much like the problem I have been seeing. I don't >have a scope, but after looking at the CoCo 1 schematic and seeing >that it uses a 741C opamp (the little 8 pin chip) for the RS-232 level >translation, seeing "triangles" sure would make sense. The 741C opamp >has a slew rate of 0.5 volts per microsecond, so a transition from a >'1' to a '0' (or vise-vera) should appear as a slope over a period of >several microseconds. This slew rate is not fast enough to support >56kbps through the bit banger output. The input circuit is capable of >operating at 56kbps. > >Darren If this is the case, I see no software solution and I'll have to limit CoCoNet to CoCo 2's and 3's unless I decide to put in a 38400 bps mode which seems to me would have slight problems with those triangular signals. Btw, I think I know of a software solution for doing speeds much faster than 115.2 kbps but that project is for another day. -- Roger Taylor http://www.wordofthedayonline.com From operator at coco3.com Mon Dec 8 20:40:36 2008 From: operator at coco3.com (Roger Taylor) Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2008 19:40:36 -0600 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet status, almost 1 million sectors read without errors In-Reply-To: <20081209010948.2513720A15@qs281.pair.com> References: <20081207030833.5788920A15@qs281.pair.com> <5d802cd0812062029l7a2e73c2h476adb33654f4cfd@mail.gmail.com> <20081208040835.D7A4620A13@qs281.pair.com> <1b52e6c80812080529w3400a13j8e7fb6c135edd24c@mail.gmail.com> <20081209010948.2513720A15@qs281.pair.com> Message-ID: <20081209014225.D55E920A13@qs281.pair.com> At 07:08 PM 12/8/2008, you wrote: >At 07:29 AM 12/8/2008, you wrote: >>Roger, just a quick question. Will this also be available on a coco floppy? > >Might as well. It needs to be offered on any media needed by the user. > >Ready for some good news, guys? I started last night's test about >10:30pm or so, and it's 7:02pm the next day, 716,000+ sectors have >been read at 115.2 kbps on a CoCo 2 without errors. Sometime >tonight 1 million sectors would have been read without any errors, >which is what I call "satisfactory". At this point I can leave the >low-level serial code alone and work on the wrapper and protocol >code for making all the neat things happen you'd expect over a >network between two computers. P.S. the test loop is now at 740,850+ sectors, which is 189,657,600 bytes (that's almost 2 billions bits @ 115.2 kbps) reporting 0 errors. -- Roger Taylor http://www.wordofthedayonline.com From keeper63 at cox.net Tue Dec 9 10:14:06 2008 From: keeper63 at cox.net (Andrew) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 08:14:06 -0700 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet status, almost 1 million sectors read without errors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <493E8B3E.1050108@cox.net> > Message: 5 > Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2008 19:08:55 -0600 > From: Roger Taylor > Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet status, almost 1 million sectors read without > errors > To: CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts > Message-ID: <20081209010948.2513720A15 at qs281.pair.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > At 07:29 AM 12/8/2008, you wrote: > >>Roger, just a quick question. Will this also be available on a coco floppy? > > > Might as well. It needs to be offered on any media needed by the user. > > Ready for some good news, guys? I started last night's test about > 10:30pm or so, and it's 7:02pm the next day, 716,000+ sectors have > been read at 115.2 kbps on a CoCo 2 without errors. Sometime tonight > 1 million sectors would have been read without any errors, which is > what I call "satisfactory". At this point I can leave the low-level > serial code alone and work on the wrapper and protocol code for > making all the neat things happen you'd expect over a network between > two computers. Hey, Roger - what platform are you using for the "other side"? I ask because I know you developed your Rainbow IDE for Windows only - I use a Linux box for my system (currently in the middle of an upgrade to Ubuntu 8.10), and I would love to see support (does DriveWire work under *nix?). For best support, you would probably want to release the source, or at minimum the communication protocol you use... This sounds like a neat project, regardless! -- Andrew L. Ayers, Glendale, Arizona From Torsten at Dittel.info Tue Dec 9 17:02:00 2008 From: Torsten at Dittel.info (Torsten Dittel) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 23:02:00 +0100 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet status In-Reply-To: <20081209013045.C579220A13@qs281.pair.com> References: <20081207030833.5788920A15@qs281.pair.com> <5d802cd0812062029l7a2e73c2h476adb33654f4cfd@mail.gmail.com> <5d802cd0812081547y6690e11asa0e83ece2f36e254@mail.gmail.com> <5d802cd0812081547y6690e11asa0e83ece2f36e254@mail.gmail.com > <20081209013045.C579220A13@qs281.pair.com> Message-ID: > If this is the case, I see no software solution and I'll have to limit > CoCoNet to CoCo 2's and 3's unless I decide to put in a 38400 bps mode > which seems to me would have slight problems with those triangular > signals. Btw, I think I know of a software solution for doing speeds > much faster than 115.2 kbps but that project is for another day. MIDI (31250 bps) already had the issue. I assume 19200 would be the limit. Torsten From mechacoco at gmail.com Tue Dec 9 17:57:14 2008 From: mechacoco at gmail.com (Darren A) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 15:57:14 -0700 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet status In-Reply-To: References: <20081207030833.5788920A15@qs281.pair.com> <5d802cd0812062029l7a2e73c2h476adb33654f4cfd@mail.gmail.com> <5d802cd0812081547y6690e11asa0e83ece2f36e254@mail.gmail.com> <20081209013045.C579220A13@qs281.pair.com> Message-ID: <5d802cd0812091457u54fb4cebne0bbecdd16d951aa@mail.gmail.com> On 12/9/08, Torsten Dittel wrote: >> If this is the case, I see no software solution and I'll have to limit >> CoCoNet to CoCo 2's and 3's unless I decide to put in a 38400 bps mode >> which seems to me would have slight problems with those triangular >> signals. Btw, I think I know of a software solution for doing speeds >> much faster than 115.2 kbps but that project is for another day. > > MIDI (31250 bps) already had the issue. I assume 19200 would be the limit. > > Torsten > I have had success with 28800 on a CoCo 1, but have not done extensive testing. DriveWire 2.0 claims to do 38400 on a CoCo 1. Darren From Torsten at Dittel.info Tue Dec 9 18:59:13 2008 From: Torsten at Dittel.info (Torsten Dittel) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 00:59:13 +0100 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet status In-Reply-To: <5d802cd0812091457u54fb4cebne0bbecdd16d951aa@mail.gmail.com> References: <20081207030833.5788920A15@qs281.pair.com> <5d802cd0812062029l7a2e73c2h476adb33654f4cfd@mail.gmail.com> <5d802cd0812081547y6690e11asa0e83ece2f36e254@mail.gmail.com> <20081209013045.C579220A13@qs281.pair.com> <5d802cd0812091457u54fb4cebne0bbecdd16d951aa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > I have had success with 28800 on a CoCo 1, but have not done extensive testing. > DriveWire 2.0 claims to do 38400 on a CoCo 1. Hmmmm... could later CoCo1 boards already have faster driver ICs? From mechacoco at gmail.com Tue Dec 9 20:30:33 2008 From: mechacoco at gmail.com (Darren A) Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 18:30:33 -0700 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet status In-Reply-To: References: <20081207030833.5788920A15@qs281.pair.com> <5d802cd0812062029l7a2e73c2h476adb33654f4cfd@mail.gmail.com> <5d802cd0812081547y6690e11asa0e83ece2f36e254@mail.gmail.com> <20081209013045.C579220A13@qs281.pair.com> <5d802cd0812091457u54fb4cebne0bbecdd16d951aa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5d802cd0812091730g1ef4dc0are13d628421664e1b@mail.gmail.com> On 12/9/08, Torsten Dittel wrote: > DarrenA wrote: >> I have had success with 28800 on a CoCo 1, but have not done extensive >> testing. >> DriveWire 2.0 claims to do 38400 on a CoCo 1. > > Hmmmm... could later CoCo1 boards already have faster driver ICs? > I have three 'F' boards all of which have the slower 741C op-amp. The 28800 bps code I tested worked on these boards. I would imagine that success will also depend on the device which is receiving the transmission from the CoCo. The actual amplitude will depend on the voltage levels that the receiving device needs for a determinate state (the closer to 0 volts the wider the amplitude). Perhaps the MIDI device in question had a higher threshold than most PC serial ports, making it less capable of working with the CoCo's sloping transitions. Darren From deemcr at robinson-west.com Tue Dec 9 20:50:32 2008 From: deemcr at robinson-west.com (Michael Robinson) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 17:50:32 -0800 Subject: [Coco] Color computer these days... Message-ID: <1228873833.16544.20.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> I checked out Ebay for the heck of it to see if I could find a Coco 3 for sale. Well, I found a coco3 with multi pak interface WAY over priced. Worse, I searched for 360k disk drives and couldn't find any. I have two 360k disk drives that are shot. I can't get Gauntlet II to work over drivewire where I could theoretically pick up some disks and write the images to them if I had working disk drives. Can I cheat somehow and get away with using a modern 1.44 meg floppy drive as a substitute? What if I can find a 720k disk drive, will that work? My disk controller says hard drive specialists on it, but it doesn't control a hard drive. Anyways, what ever became of the MM/1 and the Tomcat? I couldn't find any on Ebay. My nephew has a coco 2 and wants a coco 3 because he is aware of the differences in capability. I have a 512k coco 3 thanks to cloud 9, but no 512k software for it. At $50 for a coco 3 from cloud 9 it may be worth it to order one through them. There is talk of coconet and projects that favor the rare coco 1,2, and 3, what about dreams of a coco 4? Could a coco 4 be done? What would it look like? Would it have a modern AT keyboard, a gig of ram, the original instruction set of the coco3, plus say 100 or more new clock speeds? How could a 64 bit coco compatible computer be designed? These days there are pic micro controllers that could probably emulate the 6809BE no problem. I think the biggest compatability hurdle would be the Microware/Microsoft rom code. Color computers seem to be getting rare, especially Coco 3's. The Tomcat and the MM/1 seem to be gone. I guess the 68000 took over, but even that is gone now. The following is the only coco 3 for sale at a reasonable price that I have been able to find on E-Bay. I'm tempted to bid on it, but how do I know that it works? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=260328354693 From bookworm at cavenet.com Tue Dec 9 20:51:51 2008 From: bookworm at cavenet.com (BookWorm) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 01:51:51 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Coco] CoCo Files repository References: Message-ID: Wow, this is great! When I try to download a .dsk file with ie or Firefox, it tries to open the disk image as an html file. What am I doing wrong? I have had this problem before, but rarely. Ftp sites usualy work fine. From gene.heskett at verizon.net Tue Dec 9 21:34:09 2008 From: gene.heskett at verizon.net (Gene Heskett) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 21:34:09 -0500 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet status In-Reply-To: References: <20081207030833.5788920A15@qs281.pair.com> <5d802cd0812091457u54fb4cebne0bbecdd16d951aa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200812092134.09698.gene.heskett@verizon.net> On Tuesday 09 December 2008, Torsten Dittel wrote: >> I have had success with 28800 on a CoCo 1, but have not done extensive >> testing. DriveWire 2.0 claims to do 38400 on a CoCo 1. > >Hmmmm... could later CoCo1 boards already have faster driver ICs? Maybe, the specs on the original 741 were loaded with wide tolerances. -- Cheers, Gene "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) No excellent soul is exempt from a mixture of madness. -- Aristotle From gene.heskett at verizon.net Tue Dec 9 21:35:43 2008 From: gene.heskett at verizon.net (Gene Heskett) Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 21:35:43 -0500 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet status In-Reply-To: <5d802cd0812091730g1ef4dc0are13d628421664e1b@mail.gmail.com> References: <20081207030833.5788920A15@qs281.pair.com> <5d802cd0812091730g1ef4dc0are13d628421664e1b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200812092135.43621.gene.heskett@verizon.net> On Tuesday 09 December 2008, Darren A wrote: >On 12/9/08, Torsten Dittel wrote: >> DarrenA wrote: >>> I have had success with 28800 on a CoCo 1, but have not done extensive >>> testing. >>> DriveWire 2.0 claims to do 38400 on a CoCo 1. >> >> Hmmmm... could later CoCo1 boards already have faster driver ICs? > >I have three 'F' boards all of which have the slower 741C op-amp. The >28800 bps code I tested worked on these boards. > >I would imagine that success will also depend on the device which is >receiving the transmission from the CoCo. The actual amplitude will >depend on the voltage levels that the receiving device needs for a >determinate state (the closer to 0 volts the wider the amplitude). >Perhaps the MIDI device in question had a higher threshold than most >PC serial ports, making it less capable of working with the CoCo's >sloping transitions. > >Darren > Don't forget that part of the midi spec is optoisolation in the rx circuitry, and the 741 would be hard put to drive an opto device hard enough. >-- >Coco mailing list >Coco at maltedmedia.com >http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco -- Cheers, Gene "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) No excellent soul is exempt from a mixture of madness. -- Aristotle From sklammer at gmail.com Wed Dec 10 00:00:15 2008 From: sklammer at gmail.com (Shain Klammer) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 00:00:15 -0500 Subject: [Coco] CoCo Files repository In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3925f0b0812092100w15c1a8f1u19273c6367833aff@mail.gmail.com> Right click on the link and select "Save link as..." from the context menu. You should then be shown a "Save As" window which will allow you to select the folder to which you wish to download the file. I hope that helps you... sk 2008/12/9 BookWorm > Wow, this is great! > > When I try to download a .dsk file with ie or Firefox, it tries to open the > disk image as an html file. What am I doing wrong? I have had this problem > before, but rarely. Ftp sites usualy work fine. > > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > From jcewy at swbell.net Wed Dec 10 01:10:29 2008 From: jcewy at swbell.net (Joel Ewy) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 00:10:29 -0600 Subject: [Coco] Color computer these days... In-Reply-To: <1228873833.16544.20.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> References: <1228873833.16544.20.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> Message-ID: <493F5D55.8090908@swbell.net> Michael Robinson wrote: > I checked out Ebay for the heck of it to see if I could find a > Coco 3 for sale. Well, I found a coco3 with multi pak > interface WAY over priced. Worse, I searched for 360k disk drives > and couldn't find any. I have two 360k disk drives that are shot. > Probably somebody on this list could set you up with a 360K drive. I might be one of them, but ask Willard Goosey how quick I am at getting around to sending people things I've promised. Granted, no money has changed hands, just a promise to send him an NE1000. But I did locate it and put it in a box. And two years after promising him I would, I did scan and PDF the documentation for a Motorola 6809 CPU board. So I do eventually get around to it... :) > I can't get Gauntlet II to work over drivewire where I could > theoretically pick up some disks and write the images to them > if I had working disk drives. Can I cheat somehow and get away > with using a modern 1.44 meg floppy drive as a substitute? What > if I can find a 720k disk drive, will that work? I've used 1.44M drives as 720K drives on the CoCo for years. I use them with actual 720K media and don't attempt to trick them into thinking that high density disks are actually low density. This does simplify floppy data transfers from modern PCs. If you can find a 720K drive, that will work as well. The 720K disks may be the trickiest thing to find. Disk BASIC can be patched to use the second side so you have drives 0,2 and 1,3 with two physical 3.5" drives, and (Nitr)OS-9 will use all 720K with appropriate device descriptors. > My disk > controller says hard drive specialists on it, but it doesn't > control a hard drive. > > Yup. I've got one of those too. Hard Drive Specialists was just a company that made hard drive systems and floppy controllers as well. > Anyways, what ever became of the MM/1 and the Tomcat? I couldn't > find any on Ebay. > > I've got an MM/1 and a TC-9. The MM/1 still works just fine, (it really is a fun little computer) but the TC-9 is (and always was) kind of flaky. Neither of those systems sold in anything like the quantity of the CoCo, so I wouldn't expect to see many for sale on eBay or anywhere else. I know that Bob Devries has an MM/1 as well. I also have parts and bare boards to build memory and I/O boards for the MM/1, for what it's worth. > My nephew has a coco 2 and wants a coco 3 because he is aware > of the differences in capability. I have a 512k coco 3 thanks > to cloud 9, but no 512k software for it. At $50 for a coco 3 > from cloud 9 it may be worth it to order one through them. > > That's where I would go if I needed another CoCo 3. > There is talk of coconet and projects that favor the rare > coco 1,2, and 3, what about dreams of a coco 4? Could a > coco 4 be done? What would it look like? Would it have a > modern AT keyboard, a gig of ram, the original instruction > set of the coco3, plus say 100 or more new clock speeds? > I'm saving my pennies (yes, for me this will take a long time) to buy an FPGA development board so I can play with Gary Becker's FPGA CoCo 3. An FPGA is a programmable logic device that can have whatever logic functions you care to supply it with. Gary Becker has added CoCo 3 compatible logic to an existing 6809 core to produce a CoCo 3 SOC (System On a Chip) that can go into an FPGA development board. The board he is using is a Digilent Spartan 3, which is about $150 with the bigger FPGA. For that you get a 1M CoCo 3 that can drive a modern SVGA monitor, and uses a PS/2 keyboard. It has several configurable clock rates from 1.78MHz up to an effective speed of about 21MHz which, for a CoCo is pretty fast. You can undoubtedly get higher effective clock speeds with an emulator on a fast PC, but this is real hardware, and you don't have to wait for a bloated modern OS to load up before you get your CoCo on. At this point this is no plug and play CoCo replacement. To get the full range of colors you need to modify the development board (though it doesn't look like a difficult modification -- solder on a few resistors). To hook up joysticks and get sound out you would need to build an analog board. To even get the CoCo functionality into the FPGA you need to install the 'firmware' from a PC, at least initially. It's definitely a do-it-yourself project, but the framework is there. Is this a CoCo 4? I don't think it quite is yet. But it has great potential. First off, IMHO the moniker "CoCo 4" belongs to that earlier generation of CoCo successors, such as the Tomcat and the MM/1. I grant you that in many ways they failed to live up to their promise, but I do think they deserve a place in CoCo history. I would tend to want to refer to a modern CoCo successor as a "CC-Five" or maybe "NextGen CoCo". But whatever. What Gary Becker has done is to duplicate the essential functionality of the CoCo 3 in an Open Source Hardware Description Language. Aside from clock speed and a few modern niceties his system isn't much improved from the CoCo 3. However, Gary has made the Verilog source code available, so what he has done can easily become the starting point for new development by the CoCo community, improving on the functionality of the original design. Better graphics, better sound, even built-in co-processors are possible. It would be possible to integrate the emulated GIME's MMU with the emulated 6809, and add bigger address registers that know how to stuff the MMU registers so you can access the memory address space linearly. (Though doing something like this would be complicated in this instance since the 6809 is implemented in VHDL and the rest of the CoCo hardware is in Verilog...) In addition, there are free/Open Source cores for all kinds of functionality that could be implemented alongside the CoCo functions if there are enough spare gates in the FPGA. Things like hardware .MP3 or JPEG decoders for instance. So even if the CoCo's CPU remains limited to a relatively modest clock rate in the 10s of MHz, it would be possible to build special functions into the hardware that do in dedicated logic things that would ordinarily take a much faster CPU to do in software. Even a few modest improvements would give us a lot to play with. We've all seen the high color displays on the CoCo 3 that switch between multiple screens and/or re-stuff the palette registers during horizontal retrace or vertical refresh. Sockmaster's Hi-Color viewer is amazing. It would run much faster at 21MHz. But what if the computer could have 3 or 4 sets of palette registers that it could switch automatically without software intervention? What if it could flip between graphics screens in the same way? With something like this, the high color graphics modes could be used for games and other programs rather than just for still (if flickery) images. The logic to do this shouldn't be that obtuse, and it wouldn't alter the fundamental structure of the system. > How could a 64 bit coco compatible computer be designed? > These days there are pic micro controllers that could > probably emulate the 6809BE no problem. I think the biggest > compatability hurdle would be the Microware/Microsoft rom > code. > > I'm not sure a PIC could emulate the 6809 in real time, but the CPUs in desktop systems certainly can. D.M. Keil's emulator actually does already implement extra graphics modes, including a 256 color mode, if I'm not mistaken, though I'm not aware of any software that actually uses it. I also know that Steve Bjork and others have been discussing a software-based Next Gen CoCo platform. The fact that nobody has apparently taken advantage of the extra features of Keil's emulator highlights the reality that the CoCo world is far too small to afford further fragmentation. There has been a lot of discussion on this list in the past about whether future CoCoid development should focus on software-based emulators or HDL-based hardware (like the FPGA CoCo 3). One advantage of the software approach is that everybody has a modern computer that is probably plenty fast to emulate a CoCo (though not all at the same speeds...) One advantage of the hardware approach is that it can stand alone, and it retains some of the good qualities of the CoCo that we've lost over the years, such as instant power-on and power-off, with practically zero boot time. I use emulators as well as real CoCos, but I don't find emulators to fulfill all my CoCo needs, so I really want to try the FPGA CoCo as well. I believe that the CoCo community needs both emulated and hardware-based Next Generation CoCo systems to fill different roles and needs. What the CoCo community most emphatically does not need is 3 or 4 completely different, incompatible systems. Nobody will write new software supporting new features if the already small CoCo world fragments itself into even smaller factions. This is one area where cooperation, not competition, is called for. Compatible software emulators and FPGA CoCo systems would strengthen each other, providing a single platform for potential programmers. Incompatible systems would be a disaster. In fact, this is a lesson we should have learned from the first crop of would-be CoCo successors. I would plead for those developing new feature-added CoCo emulators to resist the temptation to go wild with outlandish features. Sure, a program running on a modern PC can do basically anything a modern PC can do. But if that program is meant to be in some way a "CoCo" it must bear some resemblance to the CoCo we know, otherwise why constrain yourself to CoCo compatibility at all? The whole point is to leverage existing CoCo experience and expertise, to integrate existing software with new programs that weren't possible on previous CoCo generations, and maybe to engage in a game of "what if" -- to see what things could have been like if Motorola had taken the 6809 one step further, and Tandy invested in another custom chip design... Add features. Make it better. But keep it recognizable as a descendant of the CoCo, and maybe even take into consideration whether the enhancements could easily be implemented in an FPGA CoCo. Doing so would add more potential breadth and depth to any design you finally create. > Color computers seem to be getting rare, especially Coco > 3's. The Tomcat and the MM/1 seem to be gone. I guess > the 68000 took over, but even that is gone now. > > There are Commodore Amiga implementations in FPGA. It wouldn't be outside the realm of possibility to think that a future FPGA design could execute both 6809 and 68000 code and could run software written for the CoCo and the MM/1 and TC-70. Possibly even CD-i. Maybe that's getting a little fanciful, but I think such a thing could be done. JCE > The following is the only coco 3 for sale at a reasonable price > that I have been able to find on E-Bay. I'm tempted to bid on > it, but how do I know that it works? > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=260328354693 > > > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > > From linville at tuxdriver.com Wed Dec 10 09:19:38 2008 From: linville at tuxdriver.com (John W. Linville) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 09:19:38 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Color computer these days... In-Reply-To: <1228873833.16544.20.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> References: <1228873833.16544.20.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> Message-ID: <20081210141937.GA5168@tuxdriver.com> On Tue, Dec 09, 2008 at 05:50:32PM -0800, Michael Robinson wrote: > There is talk of coconet and projects that favor the rare > coco 1,2, and 3, what about dreams of a coco 4? Could a > coco 4 be done? What would it look like? Would it have a > modern AT keyboard, a gig of ram, the original instruction > set of the coco3, plus say 100 or more new clock speeds? > How could a 64 bit coco compatible computer be designed? Is it that time of year again already? :-) -- John W. Linville Linux should be at the core linville at tuxdriver.com of your literate lifestyle. From jlhickle at yahoo.com Wed Dec 10 09:52:58 2008 From: jlhickle at yahoo.com (Jim Hickle) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 06:52:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Coco] Color computer these days... In-Reply-To: <20081210141937.GA5168@tuxdriver.com> Message-ID: <260461.44025.qm@web36606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > > How could a 64 bit coco compatible computer be > designed? > > Is it that time of year again already? :-) > > -- Yep, so it's also time for me to suggest that it be an analog computer that runs on water. Or Steam. Steam would be good. From os9dude at gmail.com Wed Dec 10 10:08:48 2008 From: os9dude at gmail.com (Rogelio Perea) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 10:08:48 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Color computer these days... In-Reply-To: <260461.44025.qm@web36606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20081210141937.GA5168@tuxdriver.com> <260461.44025.qm@web36606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5631e580812100708j2c60d8cdq57929f1f72d6b833@mail.gmail.com> Was thinking of powering my setup with a pedal driven generator/battery combo... Soylent Green style :-) -=[ R ]=- On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 9:52 AM, Jim Hickle wrote: > > > > How could a 64 bit coco compatible computer be > > designed? > > > > Is it that time of year again already? :-) > > > > -- > > Yep, so it's also time for me to suggest that > it be an analog computer that runs on water. > Or Steam. Steam would be good. > From gene.heskett at verizon.net Wed Dec 10 10:17:18 2008 From: gene.heskett at verizon.net (Gene Heskett) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 10:17:18 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Color computer these days... In-Reply-To: <20081210141937.GA5168@tuxdriver.com> References: <1228873833.16544.20.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <20081210141937.GA5168@tuxdriver.com> Message-ID: <200812101017.18348.gene.heskett@verizon.net> On Wednesday 10 December 2008, John W. Linville wrote: >On Tue, Dec 09, 2008 at 05:50:32PM -0800, Michael Robinson wrote: >> There is talk of coconet and projects that favor the rare >> coco 1,2, and 3, what about dreams of a coco 4? Could a >> coco 4 be done? What would it look like? Would it have a >> modern AT keyboard, a gig of ram, the original instruction >> set of the coco3, plus say 100 or more new clock speeds? >> How could a 64 bit coco compatible computer be designed? > >Is it that time of year again already? :-) Yup, sure is John. We all dream of a new coco that somehow does everything our linux boxes do now. :) Happy holidays. -- Cheers, Gene "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) After all is said and done, a hell of a lot more is said than done. From gene.heskett at verizon.net Wed Dec 10 10:18:33 2008 From: gene.heskett at verizon.net (Gene Heskett) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 10:18:33 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Color computer these days... In-Reply-To: <260461.44025.qm@web36606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <260461.44025.qm@web36606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200812101018.33693.gene.heskett@verizon.net> On Wednesday 10 December 2008, Jim Hickle wrote: >> > How could a 64 bit coco compatible computer be >> >> designed? >> >> Is it that time of year again already? :-) >> >> -- > >Yep, so it's also time for me to suggest that >it be an analog computer that runs on water. >Or Steam. Steam would be good. > Maybe even hot air, there sure has been plenty of that this past year. :) -- Cheers, Gene "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) After all is said and done, a hell of a lot more is said than done. From bookworm at cavenet.com Wed Dec 10 10:47:48 2008 From: bookworm at cavenet.com (BookWorm) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 15:47:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Coco] Color computer these days... References: <1228873833.16544.20.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <20081210141937.GA5168@tuxdriver.com> <200812101017.18348.gene.heskett@verizon.net> Message-ID: > We all dream of a new coco I don't. All I want is a new GIME chip. > that somehow does everything our linux boxes do now. :) I thought about playing with linux on my ibm, then I found out there are 500 different versions, probably all incompatible, and I've never seen any real software for linux. Even the linux version of arachne appears to be vaporware. I'll stick with NitrOS-9, with RSB & Multi-Vue. :) From bear at bears.org Wed Dec 10 11:00:36 2008 From: bear at bears.org (Gary) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 11:00:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Coco] Color computer these days... In-Reply-To: <1228873833.16544.20.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> References: <1228873833.16544.20.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Dec 2008, Michael Robinson wrote: > coco 1,2, and 3, what about dreams of a coco 4? Could a > coco 4 be done? What would it look like? Would it have a > modern AT keyboard, a gig of ram, the original instruction I've given this a little thought -- like those "What if--" stories where someone goes back in time and changes some facet of history and throws the whole thing into a different path. (Please correct for any of the REAL history I have wrong in setting up this hypothesis) Suppose Apple had flamed out along with Commodore, TI, Atari, and everyone else, leaving Radio Shack holding the Color Computer as the primary competition to the IBM PC compatables. A different management team is in charge, and they decide to focus on the machine -- to make it better, keep it competative, and move it forward in the market. What would the machines introduced in sequence be like, keeping with the times. The COCO3 was available from 1986-1991. Suppose, in 1990, realizing how long in the tooth the machine was, Tandy introduces a Color Computer 4. It would have to have filled the same niche -- that $250 or so cost point. Microsoft had already forced the issue of the ROMs by making Tandy go to Microware to build patches on top of the existing Extended BASIC. Presumably this would have continued -- maybe forcing a move to OS9 in ROM with some kind of emulation for old Disk BASIC. Would Motorola have continued the development of the 6809 processor, or forced this hypothetical Radio Shack to use something like the 68302 microcontroller -- to get the benefits of a 68000 based architecture AND serial ports, etc. in a single chip? And then again use an emulator to run old programs? Other machines of the day were offering true RS232, stereo 8-bit sampled and synthesised sound, and 256 color 640x480 graphics. How close COULD Tandy have come to those features? I dunno -- just something I've been mulling around. I no longer have catalogs and such to know what off-the-shelf components were available in 1990, nor any idea what agreements Tandy could have made with manufacturers for custom parts. In any case, it would probably be x86 based by now. (I actually miss the diversity of 1980s machines... my pals envied the CPU on my machine, and I envied the graphics and sound on theirs. Those were the days!) Peace, Gary ********* ***** ** Gary Coulbourne *************************.* ****** *********** ** *******o --------------------- ******* ********* **** ****`- Systems Administrator ******* ********* ***** http://www.bears.org ****** ********** **** bear at bears.org ## ***** ***** ## **** KB3INA ### ***** ### **** --------------------- #,,, ***,,, ##,,, **,,, From farna at att.net Wed Dec 10 11:53:22 2008 From: farna at att.net (Frank Swygert) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 11:53:22 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Color computer these days... (source for 360K drives) Message-ID: <493FF402.5060308@att.net> The HDS floppy controller is a really good one! That company made HD controllers, but they also made the floppy only controller for the CoCo. You can't use 5.25" 1.2M drives. Well, not easily. I believe some can be used as they have a jumper to control the speed (turn faster for 1.2M), but not all do, and there are read/write issues to contend with. As long as you follow specific procedures they work, but can be a hassle. 1.44M floppy drives CAN be used, but only with genuine 720K disks. Those are hard to find nowadays! The drive senses the type media (720K or 1.44M) and adjusts speed accordingly. You can use a 720K only drive, and I think it will work with 1.44M disks, but not sure. Best of all, California digital still carries used/refurbished 180K and 360K 5.25" drives, and even has some 720K 3.5" drives. Prices are $9-$39. http://www.cadigital.com/cadigtl.htm. Click on floppy drives, scroll to the bottom. They carry a lot of the old 8" drives which should be of no interest at all! If you click on computers you will find that they still have Tano Dragons (copies of the CoCo 2) available for $45. I believe they bought out the remaining stock when Tano went out of business and have been selling them ever since. Must have received a LOT of them! I doubt they sell more than 3-4 a year now though. As for the "CoCo4", I like the software emulation model. Compact P4 computers with a couple PCI slots can be bought for under $100. Even an FPGA system board would cost over $200. A generic PC already has everything needed built in and is cheap. The only thing it lacks is the CoCo expansion connector, or something similar that is easily accessible. The Parallel port is close -- it's bi-directional and can be reprogrammed, but not under Windows (at least not easily). It wouldn't be hard to modify one of the existing DOS or Linux emulators to completely masks the OS. In other words, have it boot up in the emulator without the user ever seeing the native OS. There would need to be an "escape" button to get to the native OS for maintenance issues, but most needed operations could be on a menu that keeps the native OS invisible. Would be even better to make the emulator the OS -- but that would take a lot of work. Sort of like Apple going from PowerPC to Intel processors -- the CoCo could jump from 6809 to Intel. Since all the needed items are already on the board, the parallel port could be reprogrammed to operate as an I/O port for experimentation, maybe even emulate the CoCo expansion port -- or emulate a PIA board plugged into the CoCo expansion port. The later might be easier -- and PIAs are pretty easy to program from the CoCo. ---------- Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 17:50:32 -0800 From: Michael Robinson Worse, I searched for 360k disk drives and couldn't find any. I have two 360k disk drives that are shot. Can I cheat somehow and get away with using a modern 1.44 meg floppy drive as a substitute? What if I can find a 720k disk drive, will that work? My disk controller says hard drive specialists on it, but it doesn't control a hard drive. -- Frank Swygert Publisher, "American Motors Cars" Magazine (AMC) For all AMC enthusiasts http://farna.home.att.net/AMC.html (free download available!) From jlhickle at yahoo.com Wed Dec 10 13:31:57 2008 From: jlhickle at yahoo.com (Jim Hickle) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 10:31:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Coco] Color computer these days... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <119220.8721.qm@web36606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 12/10/08, BookWorm wrote: > From: BookWorm > > I thought about playing with linux on my ibm, then I found > out there are 500 > different versions, probably all incompatible, and I've > never seen any real > software for linux. Even the linux version of > arachne appears to be > vaporware. > > I'll stick with NitrOS-9, with RSB & Multi-Vue. :) > > I've tried a few distributions but got frustrated and went back to Slackware. The others do a Windows-ish program "installation" that puts files who-knows-where and default to a pokey graphics interface. There are two Linux boxes in our house: one only used for copying LP's and tapes to CD's and one for copying files from DOS disks to COCO disks. Any real work gets done on a coco. From chadbh74 at hotmail.com Wed Dec 10 14:10:49 2008 From: chadbh74 at hotmail.com (Chad H) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 13:10:49 -0600 Subject: [Coco] CoCo Files repository In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, the HTTP protocol used in web browsers sometimes do this, I use Firefox only and have seen this. The solution is to tell it to do a proper download by RIGHT-CLICKING and select SAVE AS.... on the file link. - Chad -----Original Message----- From: coco-bounces at maltedmedia.com [mailto:coco-bounces at maltedmedia.com] On Behalf Of BookWorm Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 7:52 PM To: coco at maltedmedia.com Subject: Re: [Coco] CoCo Files repository Wow, this is great! When I try to download a .dsk file with ie or Firefox, it tries to open the disk image as an html file. What am I doing wrong? I have had this problem before, but rarely. Ftp sites usualy work fine. -- Coco mailing list Coco at maltedmedia.com http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco From chadbh74 at hotmail.com Wed Dec 10 14:17:57 2008 From: chadbh74 at hotmail.com (Chad H) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 13:17:57 -0600 Subject: [Coco] CoCo Files repository In-Reply-To: References: <9efa17da0812072030o563d74f3m48e70851bf296526@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Well the site is up and going with a good stash of softwares and documents. I'm going to be adding the PDF Rainbow issues I have and welcome others to keep submitting additions. Someone uploaded some Dragon64 stuff. I don't own a dragon but I guess its related to the CoCo. What do you guys think, should we include this in the repository? Again the site is at http://excalibur1.net/coco To submit files for sharing, FTP into ftp://excalibur1.net and use username: cocoshare password: share I'm going to be adding a small info page to the main site containing this logon information as well. I will then review the files and relocate them to the main site. - Chad From dml_68 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 10 15:02:04 2008 From: dml_68 at yahoo.com (Derek) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 12:02:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Coco] CoCo Files repository In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <67343.17735.qm@web30204.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Those were my uploads. Much of the Dragon 32 and 64 software will run just fine on the coco and it also runs on the coco emulators. The Dragon was a coco clone sold in England and I think in Australia in the 1980's. If its not wanted no worries. Just thought some folks might want it. Chad H wrote: Well the site is up and going with a good stash of softwares and documents. I'm going to be adding the PDF Rainbow issues I have and welcome others to keep submitting additions. Someone uploaded some Dragon64 stuff. I don't own a dragon but I guess its related to the CoCo. What do you guys think, should we include this in the repository? Again the site is at http://excalibur1.net/coco To submit files for sharing, FTP into ftp://excalibur1.net and use username: cocoshare password: share I'm going to be adding a small info page to the main site containing this logon information as well. I will then review the files and relocate them to the main site. - Chad -- Coco mailing list Coco at maltedmedia.com http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco ** Mistrust Authority. Promote Decentralization ** From da3m0n_slay3r at yahoo.com Wed Dec 10 15:27:22 2008 From: da3m0n_slay3r at yahoo.com (Bill Barnes) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 12:27:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Coco] Color computer these days... In-Reply-To: <493F5D55.8090908@swbell.net> Message-ID: <151887.38164.qm@web31106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> -Later! ?-WB-??? -- BABIC Computer Consulting. --- On Wed, 12/10/08, Joel Ewy wrote: From: Joel Ewy Subject: Re: [Coco] Color computer these days... To: "CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts" Date: Wednesday, December 10, 2008, 12:10 AM > What the CoCo community most emphatically does not need is 3 or 4 > completely different, incompatible systems. Nobody will write new > software supporting new features if the already small CoCo world > fragments itself into even smaller factions. This is one area where > cooperation, not competition, is called for. Compatible software > emulators and FPGA CoCo systems would strengthen each other, providing a > single platform for potential programmers. Incompatible systems would > be a disaster. In fact, this is a lesson we should have learned from the > first crop of would-be CoCo successors. I definately agree. In fact the whole computer movement/revolution/birth would not have been so fast and successful if the early pioneers had made everything proprietary and "trade secret" instead of sharing what they learned and what ideas were brewing in their heads for their next projects with each other. Nowadays... NDAs and other means are employed to keep everything hush-hush (and a "don't dare and try to figure out how we did it" attitude.) From da3m0n_slay3r at yahoo.com Wed Dec 10 15:50:35 2008 From: da3m0n_slay3r at yahoo.com (Bill Barnes) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 12:50:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Coco] CoCo Files repository In-Reply-To: <67343.17735.qm@web30204.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <143830.44497.qm@web31105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> This file repository will be great if we can keep it from being cluttered with duplicates and poor organization. So far it looks clean and well organized. -Later! ?-WB-??? -- BABIC Computer Consulting. --- On Wed, 12/10/08, Derek wrote: > From: Derek > Subject: Re: [Coco] CoCo Files repository > To: "CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts" > Date: Wednesday, December 10, 2008, 2:02 PM > Those were my uploads. Much of the Dragon 32 and 64 software > will run just fine on the coco and it also runs on the coco > emulators. The Dragon was a coco clone sold in England and I > think in Australia in the 1980's. If its not wanted no > worries. Just thought some folks might want it. > > > > > > Chad H wrote: Well the site is > up and going with a good stash of softwares and documents. > I'm going to be adding the PDF Rainbow issues I have > and welcome others to > keep submitting additions. > > Someone uploaded some Dragon64 stuff. I don't own a > dragon but I guess its > related to the CoCo. What do you guys think, should we > include this in the > repository? > > Again the site is at http://excalibur1.net/coco > > To submit files for sharing, FTP into ftp://excalibur1.net > and use username: > cocoshare password: share > I'm going to be adding a small info page to the main > site containing this > logon information as well. > > I will then review the files and relocate them to the main > site. > > - Chad > > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > > > > ** Mistrust Authority. Promote Decentralization ** > > > > > > > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco From jcewy at swbell.net Wed Dec 10 17:02:12 2008 From: jcewy at swbell.net (Joel Ewy) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 16:02:12 -0600 Subject: [Coco] CoCo Files repository In-Reply-To: References: <9efa17da0812072030o563d74f3m48e70851bf296526@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49403C64.4010400@swbell.net> Chad H wrote: > Well the site is up and going with a good stash of softwares and documents. > I'm going to be adding the PDF Rainbow issues I have and welcome others to > keep submitting additions. > > Someone uploaded some Dragon64 stuff. I don't own a dragon but I guess its > related to the CoCo. What do you guys think, should we include this in the > repository? > I say include the Dragon stuff. My suggestion as a rule of thumb would be that anything that would have been covered in Rainbow magazine should be included. That would include stuff for the MM/1 and FHL computers. I don't think there would be a lot of that kind of stuff anyway, so it shouldn't pose a make or break situation for your storage space or bandwidth. JCE > Again the site is at http://excalibur1.net/coco > > To submit files for sharing, FTP into ftp://excalibur1.net and use username: > cocoshare password: share > I'm going to be adding a small info page to the main site containing this > logon information as well. > > I will then review the files and relocate them to the main site. > > - Chad > > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > > From chadbh74 at hotmail.com Wed Dec 10 17:53:45 2008 From: chadbh74 at hotmail.com (Chad H) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 16:53:45 -0600 Subject: [Coco] CoCo Files repository In-Reply-To: <143830.44497.qm@web31105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <67343.17735.qm@web30204.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <143830.44497.qm@web31105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks, I tried to set up preliminary categories and fill them in with collections I already have on hand. The trick will be accurately determining where each item should be placed. Some collections will have to be broken down and distributed to the proper locations their components belong to. - Chad -----Original Message----- From: coco-bounces at maltedmedia.com [mailto:coco-bounces at maltedmedia.com] On Behalf Of Bill Barnes Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 2:51 PM To: CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts Subject: Re: [Coco] CoCo Files repository This file repository will be great if we can keep it from being cluttered with duplicates and poor organization. So far it looks clean and well organized. -Later! ?-WB-??? -- BABIC Computer Consulting. --- On Wed, 12/10/08, Derek wrote: > From: Derek > Subject: Re: [Coco] CoCo Files repository > To: "CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts" > Date: Wednesday, December 10, 2008, 2:02 PM > Those were my uploads. Much of the Dragon 32 and 64 software > will run just fine on the coco and it also runs on the coco > emulators. The Dragon was a coco clone sold in England and I > think in Australia in the 1980's. If its not wanted no > worries. Just thought some folks might want it. > > > > > > Chad H wrote: Well the site is > up and going with a good stash of softwares and documents. > I'm going to be adding the PDF Rainbow issues I have > and welcome others to > keep submitting additions. > > Someone uploaded some Dragon64 stuff. I don't own a > dragon but I guess its > related to the CoCo. What do you guys think, should we > include this in the > repository? > > Again the site is at http://excalibur1.net/coco > > To submit files for sharing, FTP into ftp://excalibur1.net > and use username: > cocoshare password: share > I'm going to be adding a small info page to the main > site containing this > logon information as well. > > I will then review the files and relocate them to the main > site. > > - Chad > > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > > > > ** Mistrust Authority. Promote Decentralization ** > > > > > > > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco -- Coco mailing list Coco at maltedmedia.com http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco From chadbh74 at hotmail.com Wed Dec 10 17:54:56 2008 From: chadbh74 at hotmail.com (Chad H) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 16:54:56 -0600 Subject: [Coco] CoCo Files repository In-Reply-To: <67343.17735.qm@web30204.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <67343.17735.qm@web30204.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No worries indeed, your contributions are welcomed and I will transfer them to the permanent share point. Thanks. -----Original Message----- From: coco-bounces at maltedmedia.com [mailto:coco-bounces at maltedmedia.com] On Behalf Of Derek Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 2:02 PM To: CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts Subject: Re: [Coco] CoCo Files repository Those were my uploads. Much of the Dragon 32 and 64 software will run just fine on the coco and it also runs on the coco emulators. The Dragon was a coco clone sold in England and I think in Australia in the 1980's. If its not wanted no worries. Just thought some folks might want it. Chad H wrote: Well the site is up and going with a good stash of softwares and documents. I'm going to be adding the PDF Rainbow issues I have and welcome others to keep submitting additions. Someone uploaded some Dragon64 stuff. I don't own a dragon but I guess its related to the CoCo. What do you guys think, should we include this in the repository? Again the site is at http://excalibur1.net/coco To submit files for sharing, FTP into ftp://excalibur1.net and use username: cocoshare password: share I'm going to be adding a small info page to the main site containing this logon information as well. I will then review the files and relocate them to the main site. - Chad -- Coco mailing list Coco at maltedmedia.com http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco ** Mistrust Authority. Promote Decentralization ** -- Coco mailing list Coco at maltedmedia.com http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Dec 10 21:09:23 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 21:09:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Coco] CoCo Files repository In-Reply-To: <001301c95afc$0230c9a0$06925ce0$@com> References: <9efa17da0812072030o563d74f3m48e70851bf296526@mail.gmail.com> <001301c95afc$0230c9a0$06925ce0$@com> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Dec 2008, Chad H wrote: > Well the site is up and going with a good stash of softwares and documents. > I'm going to be adding the PDF Rainbow issues I have and welcome others to > keep submitting additions. > > Someone uploaded some Dragon64 stuff. I don't own a dragon but I guess its > related to the CoCo. What do you guys think, should we include this in the > repository? > > Again the site is at http://excalibur1.net/coco Is there a trick for getting a recursive download from that site? wget is supposed to pay strict attention to robots.txt, but I'm getting ominous 404 reponses warning me to stay out of "places I do not belong". Not trying to cause problems here, believe me :-). -- From chadbh74 at hotmail.com Wed Dec 10 22:36:07 2008 From: chadbh74 at hotmail.com (Chad H) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 21:36:07 -0600 Subject: [Coco] CoCo Files repository In-Reply-To: References: <9efa17da0812072030o563d74f3m48e70851bf296526@mail.gmail.com> <001301c95afc$0230c9a0$06925ce0$@com> Message-ID: Uggh..typo in the link there ..my bad http://excalibur1.net/coco There ya go lol -----Original Message----- From: coco-bounces at maltedmedia.com [mailto:coco-bounces at maltedmedia.com] On Behalf Of Steven Hirsch Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 8:09 PM To: CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts Subject: Re: [Coco] CoCo Files repository On Wed, 10 Dec 2008, Chad H wrote: > Well the site is up and going with a good stash of softwares and documents. > I'm going to be adding the PDF Rainbow issues I have and welcome others to > keep submitting additions. > > Someone uploaded some Dragon64 stuff. I don't own a dragon but I guess its > related to the CoCo. What do you guys think, should we include this in the > repository? > > Again the site is at http://excalibur1.net/coco Is there a trick for getting a recursive download from that site? wget is supposed to pay strict attention to robots.txt, but I'm getting ominous 404 reponses warning me to stay out of "places I do not belong". Not trying to cause problems here, believe me :-). -- -- Coco mailing list Coco at maltedmedia.com http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco From chadbh74 at hotmail.com Wed Dec 10 22:54:22 2008 From: chadbh74 at hotmail.com (Chad H) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 21:54:22 -0600 Subject: [Coco] CoCo Files repository In-Reply-To: References: <9efa17da0812072030o563d74f3m48e70851bf296526@mail.gmail.com> <001301c95afc$0230c9a0$06925ce0$@com> Message-ID: Why are you trying to access a "robots.txt" file? There is no such file on the server and so the message...it's way of slapping you on the wrist lol.. I would recommend a simple browser or if you're trying to capture web folders, get this here>> http://www.httrack.com/ HTTrack works really well for me :) - Chad -----Original Message----- From: coco-bounces at maltedmedia.com [mailto:coco-bounces at maltedmedia.com] On Behalf Of Steven Hirsch Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 8:09 PM To: CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts Subject: Re: [Coco] CoCo Files repository On Wed, 10 Dec 2008, Chad H wrote: > Well the site is up and going with a good stash of softwares and documents. > I'm going to be adding the PDF Rainbow issues I have and welcome others to > keep submitting additions. > > Someone uploaded some Dragon64 stuff. I don't own a dragon but I guess its > related to the CoCo. What do you guys think, should we include this in the > repository? > > Again the site is at http://excalibur1.net/coco Is there a trick for getting a recursive download from that site? wget is supposed to pay strict attention to robots.txt, but I'm getting ominous 404 reponses warning me to stay out of "places I do not belong". Not trying to cause problems here, believe me :-). -- -- Coco mailing list Coco at maltedmedia.com http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco From deemcr at robinson-west.com Thu Dec 11 02:54:59 2008 From: deemcr at robinson-west.com (Michael Robinson) Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 23:54:59 -0800 Subject: [Coco] Get those hard to find disks... Message-ID: <1228982100.5573.9.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> http://floppydisk.com/ Generally I'm disinclined to buy floppy disks, but there are some programs, like Gauntlet II, that won't run over drivewire. Floppies are inherently unreliable. http://www.thesvd.com/SVD/index.php is interesting, but a little spendy unfortunately. Now then, my deluxe joystick could be replaced... By the time I buy a floppy drive and 50 disks for it, I'm closing in on the SVD. Would the SVD work with Gauntlet II? Does the IBM feed it the data over a serial link or is there onboard memory? I'm surprised there hasn't been an effort to make a drivewire friendly replacement for Gauntlet II, but then the audience for that is pretty small. From os9dude at gmail.com Thu Dec 11 05:39:12 2008 From: os9dude at gmail.com (Rogelio Perea) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 05:39:12 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Get those hard to find disks... In-Reply-To: <1228982100.5573.9.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> References: <1228982100.5573.9.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> Message-ID: <5631e580812110239i166b472axe8eb308825533f6f@mail.gmail.com> Indeed a floppy disk is something easily regarded as flimsy within today's current crop of mass storage media. Still, I am simply amazed that a great deal of my floppy disks, and some of them acquired in the mid 80s, are still alive and read perfectly without any problems. Brands? many of them are the ones sold by Radio Shack followed by a slew of Sony, Memorex and Imation disks; the ones that I've found actually on the way out (jacket edges brittle and dried out) are no-brand-name bulk disks which I have already copied to new media - the disks themselves have shown no problems, but the jackets. It has been 25 years gone by for some of them... well beyond their intended useful life. -=[ Rogelio ]=- On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 2:54 AM, Michael Robinson wrote: > http://floppydisk.com/ > > Generally I'm disinclined to buy floppy disks, but there > are some programs, like Gauntlet II, that won't run over > drivewire. Floppies are inherently unreliable.... From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu Dec 11 08:08:17 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 08:08:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Coco] Get those hard to find disks... In-Reply-To: <1228982100.5573.9.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> References: <1228982100.5573.9.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Dec 2008, Michael Robinson wrote: > http://www.thesvd.com/SVD/index.php > > is interesting, but a little spendy unfortunately. > > Now then, my deluxe joystick could be replaced... > > By the time I buy a floppy drive and 50 disks for > it, I'm closing in on the SVD. Would the SVD work > with Gauntlet II? Does the IBM feed it the data over > a serial link or is there onboard memory? The SVD has 256KB of on-board memory. You download entire images to it from the PC. Be aware that the SVD cannot emulate DS or HD diskettes due to the limited RAM. The original developer seems to have abandoned the project, but I'm hopeful that Les (who makes the units being sold on eBay) or someone else can upgrade the design. -- From keeper63 at cox.net Thu Dec 11 10:35:15 2008 From: keeper63 at cox.net (Andrew) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 08:35:15 -0700 Subject: [Coco] Color computer these days... (double reply) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49413333.2020207@cox.net> This is kinda a "double reply" - so please bear with me... > Message: 4 > Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 15:47:48 +0000 (UTC) > From: BookWorm > Subject: Re: [Coco] Color computer these days... > > I thought about playing with linux on my ibm, then I found out there are 500 > different versions, probably all incompatible, and I've never seen any real In Linux, nothing is really incompatible - everything will work with any distro provided you have all the libraries, headers, etc, and the gcc compiler installed. Ok - that was a flip answer, but honestly, its nearly the truth. I have even managed to get some really old stuff working on newer distros, sometimes stuff not even written for Linux (but was designed to be POSIX compliant) - had to change a few things in the source and sometimes come up with an alternate make file, but it can be done! In truth, nowadays most distros are based on RPM or DEB package sets (RPM came from Redhat distros, and DEB came from Debian distros). There is also a tool to convert between the packages that tends to work fairly well, called "Alien". If you just want a simple desktop, go out and get a copy of ubuntu or kubuntu (currently both at 8.10) for your machine (32 or 64 bit - if you are unsure or want the greatest compatibility with current software, stick with the 32 bit version - compatability libraries for 64 bit do exist, though). This is one desktop distro (and they have a server edition as well, but for desktop use you will want that version as it will have a GUI) that really shows off Linux today. Ubuntu has the GNOME window manager, Kubuntu uses the KDE window manager (KDE tends to be more "feature rich", you will want a nice graphics card for it). All in all - yes, there are a ton of distros out there, but the most vibrant community (read that as "hacking" community) has fell in love with Ubuntu - and for good reason. > software for linux. Even the linux version of arachne appears to be > vaporware. I am not sure what you mean by this - even on my current box (in the middle of an upgrade), using a 4 year old copy of Mandrake 10.1, I have everything I have ever needed. I am not sure what you mean by "real software". If you are meaning "software made by well known corporations", then yes, not much out there (but some does exist!). If you mean games, same thing (but again, some does exist!). But real software written by people for the love of the software, and written very, very well (including many slick applications and games, some of which you can only find ON linux) do exist. Hit me off-list if you want more info. > I'll stick with NitrOS-9, with RSB & Multi-Vue. :) I suppose if they do the job for you, and you don't need anything else, then why worry? > Message: 6 > Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2008 11:53:22 -0500 > From: Frank Swygert > Subject: Re: [Coco] Color computer these days... (source for 360K > drives) > > As for the "CoCo4", I like the software emulation model. Compact P4 computers with a couple PCI slots can be bought for under $100. Even an FPGA system board would cost over $200. A generic PC already has everything needed built in and is cheap. The only thing it lacks is the CoCo expansion connector, or something similar that is easily accessible. The Parallel port is close -- it's bi-directional and can be reprogrammed, but not under Windows (at least not easily). Frank, I agree with you on this - if you want to see some real small "powerhouses" - check out the line of Intel's ATOM motherboards - small and nearly fanless (but even so, very quiet). They are even 64 bit! You can drop oodles of memory onto them (4 gig, I think), and their on-board everything is wonderful (audio, video, and ethernet - one model you can get 1 gig ethernet). 8 USB ports, too. Plus, they are very cheap (around here in Phoenix they range from $65-75 dollars - the board and processor, memory and powersupply is extra - but a PICO psu is cheap - great for embedded systems like a car computer or robotics). They also have a parallel port, but I hate to break it to you: most new motherboards nowadays are dropping the parallel port (!) - you are expected to use USB. But it really isn't that big a deal - there do exist USB->Parallel Port dongles, so all is not lost. Plus, interfacing to USB today is fairly easy. My new machine that I am upgrading to doesn't have a parallel port, but it does have 10 (!) USB 2.0 ports, as well as an onboard dual-head NVidia chipset video card (drives both of my new 1680x1050 widescreen LCDs very nicely, both with accellerated 3D), plus 6.1 surround sound. While I miss the parallel port for its interfacing capabilities, I am not that wedded to it. I figure if I really need something like that, then I will just communicate via USB to an Arduino or something, and use the data ports off of that. -- Andrew L. Ayers, Glendale, Arizona From dml_68 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 11 10:34:39 2008 From: dml_68 at yahoo.com (Derek) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 07:34:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Coco] Get those hard to find disks... In-Reply-To: <1228982100.5573.9.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> Message-ID: <654454.13530.qm@web30208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I use a 1.44mb 3.5" floppy drive mounted with my FD502 5.25" drive without any problems at all. I find floppy disks all the time at local thrift shops (not blanks but can be formatted easily). On the windows end use the VCC emulator and in it's set up set your real 3.5" floppy drive as drive 1 and you can write disk images to the 3.5" disks via RSDOS. I just tested Gauntlet II , transfered it over to a 3.5" disk and ran it on my 512K CoCo 3 just fine. Michael Robinson wrote: http://floppydisk.com/ Generally I'm disinclined to buy floppy disks, but there are some programs, like Gauntlet II, that won't run over drivewire. Floppies are inherently unreliable. http://www.thesvd.com/SVD/index.php is interesting, but a little spendy unfortunately. Now then, my deluxe joystick could be replaced... By the time I buy a floppy drive and 50 disks for it, I'm closing in on the SVD. Would the SVD work with Gauntlet II? Does the IBM feed it the data over a serial link or is there onboard memory? I'm surprised there hasn't been an effort to make a drivewire friendly replacement for Gauntlet II, but then the audience for that is pretty small. -- Coco mailing list Coco at maltedmedia.com http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco ** Mistrust Authority. Promote Decentralization ** From neilsmorr at gmail.com Thu Dec 11 18:37:30 2008 From: neilsmorr at gmail.com (Neil Morrison) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 15:37:30 -0800 Subject: [Coco] Get those hard to find disks... References: <1228982100.5573.9.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> Message-ID: <6423255A5E6D47488C49E43424F79251@NewBaby> The Model 100 crowd have a new gadget called the NADSBox. You can plug any of several different memory cards in it like the SD card and you have a 2 Gb drive for example. Here is a description: 1. The processor has 64K of Flash Program memory that is self programmable. 2. I split the 64K into 3 sectors, one with the help of Microchip. They are a 2K Boot Sector (Microchip's contribution), a 30K Firmware Sector, and a 32K Application Sector (although now that I write this, maybe I will make the Firmware Sector 32K and the Application Sector 30K). 3. The Boot Sector is write/erase protected and contains firmware upgrade routines to rewrite the Firmware Sector from data stored in an external 128K byte serial EEPROM on the PCB. The code in the Boot Sector has been tested extensively as it is not field upgradeable. 4. A command in the Firmware Sector, the 'flash' command, reads the new firmware from a file on the memory card (with standard FAT format), checks the validity of the firmware, writes it to the appropriate location in the external 128K EEPROM, writes a command to the processor's internal data EEPROM to inform the Boot Sector that an upgrade is requested, and jumps to the Boot Sector to perform the upgrade. 5. The Boot Sector detects the "Update Requested" command, reads the new firmware from the external EEPROM and reprograms the Firmware Sector. After the Boot Sector has reprogrammed the Firmware Sector, it clears the "Update Requested" command in the internal data EEPROM and jumps to the pre-determined Main Entry location to start using the upgraded firmware. 6. The Boot Sector also has provisions for recovering a factory installed and locked "Firmware Recovery Image" from a special sector in the External EEPROM via a "Recovery Jumper" on the PCB. This is provided in case the flash update fails, thereby corrupting the firmware, and the unit can no longer read FAT format files to "retry" the upgrade. This operation requires no user intervention except to install the jumper and turn the unit on. 7. In the event of total catastrophic failure (both Flash upgrade fails AND the recovery image mysterously disappears), the Boot Sector can also receive a recovery image through the RS-232 port. 8. The Firmware Sector contains a command called the Application Manager (appmgr) that reads optional programs (xmodem, format, DriveWire, etc.) from the memory card, programs them into the Application Sector and "stitches" them into the operation of the NADSBox so they look like built-in commands. The appmgr is still work-in-progress and one of those features I mentioned that I have to avoid trying to work on prior to sending NADSBoxes out for testing and general use. So to make a long story long...to upgrade the firmware, you simply download the upgrade image from my website, save it to an SD card and insert into the NADSBox, go to the command line prompt and type "flash filename". The firmware does the rest. It'll handle up to 4 Gb cards as is BTW. That's over 20,000 floppies (I think). It connects via the serial port. Neil ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Robinson" > http://floppydisk.com/ > > Generally I'm disinclined to buy floppy disks, but there > are some programs, like Gauntlet II, that won't run over > drivewire. Floppies are inherently unreliable. > > http://www.thesvd.com/SVD/index.php > > is interesting, but a little spendy unfortunately. > > Now then, my deluxe joystick could be replaced... From neilsmorr at gmail.com Thu Dec 11 20:34:44 2008 From: neilsmorr at gmail.com (Neil Morrison) Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 17:34:44 -0800 Subject: [Coco] Get those hard to find disks... References: <1228982100.5573.9.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <5631e580812110239i166b472axe8eb308825533f6f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5BEDEA303F1140AD9B3538071060F33B@NewBaby> Save those jackets. You can't buy them anywhere now! Neil ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rogelio Perea" > ........ - the disks themselves have > shown no problems, but the jackets. From robert.gault at worldnet.att.net Fri Dec 12 08:59:01 2008 From: robert.gault at worldnet.att.net (Robert Gault) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 08:59:01 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Extended ADOS-3 Message-ID: <49426E25.6030401@worldnet.att.net> A disk image of Art's package was uploaded by someone to the Maltedmedia ftp site. The file ftp://maltedmedia.com/coco/NEWLY-RECEIVED/ADOS3EXT.DSK has a corrupted T17S2 sector and none of the contents can be loaded. Assuming this was released into the public domain (I think Art gave permission), is there some procedure to unlock this disk? Is there a better disk image somewhere? From mechacoco at gmail.com Fri Dec 12 10:40:50 2008 From: mechacoco at gmail.com (Darren A) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 08:40:50 -0700 Subject: [Coco] Extended ADOS-3 In-Reply-To: <49426E25.6030401@worldnet.att.net> References: <49426E25.6030401@worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: <5d802cd0812120740t6c045f2fh76428fbd7c69d985@mail.gmail.com> On 12/12/08, Robert Gault wrote: > A disk image of Art's package was uploaded by someone to the Maltedmedia > ftp site. The file ftp://maltedmedia.com/coco/NEWLY-RECEIVED/ADOS3EXT.DSK > has a corrupted T17S2 sector and none of the contents can be loaded. > > Assuming this was released into the public domain (I think Art gave > permission), is there some procedure to unlock this disk? Is there a > better disk image somewhere? > -- Yes. Art gave permission to release everything related to ADOS.. See: Robert, I've sent you a copy of the disk images I found in my archive. Darren From bookworm at cavenet.com Fri Dec 12 11:49:09 2008 From: bookworm at cavenet.com (BookWorm) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 16:49:09 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Coco] Color computer these days... (double reply) References: <49413333.2020207@cox.net> Message-ID: So it's all compatible unless it's not compatible, but if it's not compatible you can make it compatible. Sounds like an even bigger hastle than windows. IMHO linux is for hackers who can't afford a CoCo or a Commodore. (Commodores aren't all *that* bad. There's a C128 version of Unix, and OS/A65 for the C64. And there is real software - you can convert Commodore Basic software to OS/A65. It sounds like a better "poor man's CoCo" than linux.) From robert.gault at worldnet.att.net Fri Dec 12 12:32:03 2008 From: robert.gault at worldnet.att.net (Robert Gault) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 12:32:03 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Extended ADOS-3 In-Reply-To: <5d802cd0812120740t6c045f2fh76428fbd7c69d985@mail.gmail.com> References: <49426E25.6030401@worldnet.att.net> <5d802cd0812120740t6c045f2fh76428fbd7c69d985@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4942A013.7060101@worldnet.att.net> Darren A wrote: > On 12/12/08, Robert Gault wrote: >> A disk image of Art's package was uploaded by someone to the Maltedmedia >> ftp site. The file ftp://maltedmedia.com/coco/NEWLY-RECEIVED/ADOS3EXT.DSK >> has a corrupted T17S2 sector and none of the contents can be loaded. >> >> Assuming this was released into the public domain (I think Art gave >> permission), is there some procedure to unlock this disk? Is there a >> better disk image somewhere? >> > -- > > Yes. Art gave permission to release everything related to ADOS.. See: > > > Robert, I've sent you a copy of the disk images I found in my archive. > > Darren > Thank you very much! From bookworm at cavenet.com Fri Dec 12 21:09:51 2008 From: bookworm at cavenet.com (BookWorm) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 02:09:51 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Coco] Get those hard to find disks... References: <1228982100.5573.9.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <654454.13530.qm@web30208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > I use a 1.44mb 3.5" floppy drive mounted with my FD502 5.25" drive without any problems at all. I've kept my FD-502 original. It's in perfect condition, and kind of cool. I get two DSDD drives in the space of one of the competition's drives, who I won't mention by name because I've picked on commodore enough already. I like, and intend to keep, my 5 1/4" drives. It's a combination of nostalgia and compatability. Of course, I only use them for backup, etc., and installing software. I have a big hard drive and a couple of Zip 100's. > I find floppy > disks all the time at local thrift shops (not blanks but can be formatted easily). So do I, but I've been having a lot of trouble with bad disks. How do I tell if it's the disks or the drives? My 3 1/2" & 5 1/4" were salvaged from discarded a Tandy 1000 and are mounted in an FD-500 (the connectors are compatable and it had to be upgraded to double sided anyway.) The cable is unshielded, and I don't really know how to test a drive. What if the test disk is bad? A bulk tape eraser does help this problem a lot, but it doesn't fix everything. From mechacoco at gmail.com Fri Dec 12 21:46:41 2008 From: mechacoco at gmail.com (Darren A) Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 19:46:41 -0700 Subject: [Coco] Get those hard to find disks... In-Reply-To: References: <1228982100.5573.9.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <654454.13530.qm@web30208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5d802cd0812121846l3f8daa38qb536e67018a6c52b@mail.gmail.com> On 12/12/08, BookWorm wrote: > >> I find floppy >> disks all the time at local thrift shops (not blanks but can be formatted > easily). > > So do I, but I've been having a lot of trouble with bad disks. How do I tell > if > it's the disks or the drives? My 3 1/2" & 5 1/4" were salvaged from > discarded a > Tandy 1000 and are mounted in an FD-500 (the connectors are compatable and > it > had to be upgraded to double sided anyway.) The cable is unshielded, and I > don't really know how to test a drive. What if the test disk is bad? > > A bulk tape eraser does help this problem a lot, but it doesn't fix > everything. > Are these problem disks HD or DD? HD disks do not work well when trying to use them for DD recording, especially if they have had any HD data recorded on them previously. If they are virgin disks then covering up the HD hole might improve your success rate. It's always best to use 720K DD 3.5 inch media unless you have a controller that has been modified for HD operation. Darren From paulh96636 at aol.com Sat Dec 13 08:51:35 2008 From: paulh96636 at aol.com (paulh96636 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 08:51:35 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Catalog alert... In-Reply-To: <5d802cd0812121846l3f8daa38qb536e67018a6c52b@mail.gmail.com> References: <1228982100.5573.9.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com><654454.13530.qm@web30208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <5d802cd0812121846l3f8daa38qb536e67018a6c52b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8CB2B410C4E447F-C50-1F06@webmail-db17.sysops.aol.com> http://www.radioshackcatalogs.com/catalog_directory.html From gene.heskett at verizon.net Sat Dec 13 09:24:02 2008 From: gene.heskett at verizon.net (Gene Heskett) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 09:24:02 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Catalog alert... In-Reply-To: <8CB2B410C4E447F-C50-1F06@webmail-db17.sysops.aol.com> References: <1228982100.5573.9.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <5d802cd0812121846l3f8daa38qb536e67018a6c52b@mail.gmail.com> <8CB2B410C4E447F-C50-1F06@webmail-db17.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <200812130924.02374.gene.heskett@verizon.net> On Saturday 13 December 2008, paulh96636 at aol.com wrote: >http://www.radioshackcatalogs.com/catalog_directory.html > Wow, that 1946 catalog has much of the stuff I used as soon as I could afford it, to learn about this thing called electronics. By 1947 I was fixing radios for smokes money. TV's by 1948. Sure brings back a lot of old memories. Bookmark this page folks, its a keeper. -- Cheers, Gene "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) "It's today!" said Piglet. "My favorite day," said Pooh. From exwn8jef at gmail.com Sat Dec 13 10:54:56 2008 From: exwn8jef at gmail.com (N8WQ) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 10:54:56 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Color computer these days... (double reply) In-Reply-To: References: <49413333.2020207@cox.net> Message-ID: <4943DAD0.6000007@gmail.com> BookWorm wrote: > IMHO linux is for hackers who can't afford a CoCo or a Commodore. > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > > Bookworm, How long have you used Linux? Just curious. Alan Jones -- N8WQ - Canal Winchester, Ohio http://exwn8jef.googlepages.com/home http://n8wq.blogspot.com From bookworm at cavenet.com Sat Dec 13 11:08:25 2008 From: bookworm at cavenet.com (BookWorm) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 16:08:25 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Coco] Get those hard to find disks... References: <1228982100.5573.9.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <654454.13530.qm@web30208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <5d802cd0812121846l3f8daa38qb536e67018a6c52b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > Are these problem disks HD or DD? DD > If they are virgin disks then covering up the HD hole might improve your > success rate. 5 1/4" disks don't have a HD hole, and the CoCo wouldn't know the difference anyway. From bookworm at cavenet.com Sat Dec 13 11:16:32 2008 From: bookworm at cavenet.com (BookWorm) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 16:16:32 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Coco] Color computer these days... (double reply) References: <49413333.2020207@cox.net> <4943DAD0.6000007@gmail.com> Message-ID: > > IMHO linux is for hackers who can't afford a CoCo or a Commodore. > Bookworm, > How long have you used Linux? > Just curious. Uh...I once spent about half an hour looking for information about it. I just hate pee seas, and anything that sounds potentialy more frustrating than windows is out of the question. I was going to install '98, 2k, OS/2, Linux, Xenix, AIX, and C-DOS 386. But now with 2k & 98, 2k is a frequent pain and 98 barely works. Forget all of that. OS- 9, Disk Basic, Flex, CP/M, TRS-DOS, Geos, and ark are more fun anyway. From dml_68 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 13 11:30:32 2008 From: dml_68 at yahoo.com (Derek) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 08:30:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Coco] Get those hard to find disks... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <766027.43629.qm@web30202.mail.mud.yahoo.com> When I have used disks that give me a problem and will not format I use Darren's Coco disk program here : http://www.coco3.com/users/DarrenA/?M=A I just run a quick format with that program and then I can use the disks just fine. Really works well for using MS-DOS formatted disks that will not run initially on my Amiga and Apple Macintosh SE as well. I just use the program to do an 80 track Double sided format and then the disks are usable on the vintage platforms. Its also a great tool to write coco disk images to a real floppy but it does have some problems with some of the coco disk images that are 219K (I believe that's the size) BookWorm wrote: > I use a 1.44mb 3.5" floppy drive mounted with my FD502 5.25" drive without any problems at all. I've kept my FD-502 original. It's in perfect condition, and kind of cool. I get two DSDD drives in the space of one of the competition's drives, who I won't mention by name because I've picked on commodore enough already. I like, and intend to keep, my 5 1/4" drives. It's a combination of nostalgia and compatability. Of course, I only use them for backup, etc., and installing software. I have a big hard drive and a couple of Zip 100's. > I find floppy > disks all the time at local thrift shops (not blanks but can be formatted easily). So do I, but I've been having a lot of trouble with bad disks. How do I tell if it's the disks or the drives? My 3 1/2" & 5 1/4" were salvaged from discarded a Tandy 1000 and are mounted in an FD-500 (the connectors are compatable and it had to be upgraded to double sided anyway.) The cable is unshielded, and I don't really know how to test a drive. What if the test disk is bad? A bulk tape eraser does help this problem a lot, but it doesn't fix everything. -- Coco mailing list Coco at maltedmedia.com http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco ** Mistrust Authority. Promote Decentralization ** From exwn8jef at gmail.com Sat Dec 13 11:36:00 2008 From: exwn8jef at gmail.com (N8WQ) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 11:36:00 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Color computer these days... (double reply) In-Reply-To: References: <49413333.2020207@cox.net> <4943DAD0.6000007@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4943E470.7030209@gmail.com> Ok, I know what you mean. I guess it all boils down to having the time, patience, and desire to learn whatever it is that you want to learn. I started with BASIC so it was easy to master. I miss programming in BASIC. The last time I did some programming was on an old Macintosh computer using Chipmunk Basic. I don't have access to any of my CoCo's at the moment because they are in storage. I never got around to learning OS-9 but I always wanted to. Hopefully I will be getting my CoCo's out of storage soon. Have a nice day! Alan BookWorm wrote: >>> IMHO linux is for hackers who can't afford a CoCo or a Commodore. >>> > > >> Bookworm, >> How long have you used Linux? >> Just curious. >> > > Uh...I once spent about half an hour looking for information about it. > > I just hate pee seas, and anything that sounds potentialy more frustrating than > windows is out of the question. > > I was going to install '98, 2k, OS/2, Linux, Xenix, AIX, and C-DOS 386. But now > with 2k & 98, 2k is a frequent pain and 98 barely works. Forget all of that. OS- > 9, Disk Basic, Flex, CP/M, TRS-DOS, Geos, and ark are more fun anyway. > > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > > Alan Jones -- N8WQ - Canal Winchester, Ohio http://exwn8jef.googlepages.com/home http://n8wq.blogspot.com From t.fadden at cox.net Sat Dec 13 11:46:54 2008 From: t.fadden at cox.net (Tim Fadden) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 09:46:54 -0700 Subject: [Coco] Color computer these days... (double reply) In-Reply-To: References: <49413333.2020207@cox.net> <4943DAD0.6000007@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4943E6FE.1060606@cox.net> Hey what about Solaris? the BEST os on the planet! I must admit, I am biased since I work for Sun Microsystems. :-) Tim.BookWorm wrote: >>> IMHO linux is for hackers who can't afford a CoCo or a Commodore. >>> > > >> Bookworm, >> How long have you used Linux? >> Just curious. >> > > Uh...I once spent about half an hour looking for information about it. > > I just hate pee seas, and anything that sounds potentialy more frustrating than > windows is out of the question. > > I was going to install '98, 2k, OS/2, Linux, Xenix, AIX, and C-DOS 386. But now > with 2k & 98, 2k is a frequent pain and 98 barely works. Forget all of that. OS- > 9, Disk Basic, Flex, CP/M, TRS-DOS, Geos, and ark are more fun anyway. > > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > > > From keeper63 at cox.net Sat Dec 13 13:34:44 2008 From: keeper63 at cox.net (Andrew) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 11:34:44 -0700 Subject: [Coco] Color computer these days... (double reply) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49440044.40702@cox.net> BookWorm (btw, do you go by an actual name? most of us here are use our real names, mostly): > Message: 2 > Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 16:49:09 +0000 (UTC) > From: BookWorm > Subject: Re: [Coco] Color computer these days... (double reply) > To: coco at maltedmedia.com > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > So it's all compatible unless it's not compatible, but if it's not compatible > you can make it compatible. Sounds like an even bigger hastle than windows. What I really meant is that not all binary packages will run "right out of the box", depending (mainly) on the version of kernel you're using coupled with any library dependencies. Its kinda the same thing in Windows, you wouldn't expect XP stuff to run under Windows 98. What the problem is in the Linux world is that a) distros are versioned, but it doesn't tell you anything about compatibility at the kernel level, b) releases of distros and the kernel happen at a much quicker pace than anything in the Microsoft camp. This "churn" creates a lot of confusion and angst. > IMHO linux is for hackers who can't afford a CoCo or a Commodore. (Commodores Oh, I can more than afford my CoCo 2 and 3 (and I have paid for my Amigas, so there is that, too). I am in the middle of a hardware upgrade to my new Ubuntu linux system - I wish it was as cheap as you make it out to be. True, ubuntu didn't cost me anything (though I might go ahead and plunk some money down for copies of actual disks, to support the project), but the hardware cost plenty. > aren't all *that* bad. There's a C128 version of Unix, and OS/A65 for the C64. > And there is real software - you can convert Commodore Basic software to > OS/A65. It sounds like a better "poor man's CoCo" than linux.) I guess it depends on what you want to do - if the CoCo or anything else is meeting your needs, then use and abuse it. I am not here to convert anybody (ok, maybe if I can get Roger Taylor on board the linux camp, then I could get the Rainbow IDE - though maybe it would run under Wine, who knows?). My only beef is with the old saw that I hear lamenting the "lack of real software" for linux. Maybe 10 years ago you might have had a case, but it isn't the case anymore. Even if a piece of software is only available for Windows, it will still most likely run under Wine (a lot of major games like WoW do, as well many major applications). You may or may not be able to "point-n-click-n-run" for everything, but for most things it can be that simple. But if it isn't for you, then it isn't - I just don't want there to be any misinformation out there which might turn off others before they even gave it a chance. Anyhow - all of this is off topic, which is why I had hoped you would hit me off-list. I won't say anything more on it (ok, one thing - MESS under Linux with CoCo 3 emulation runs like a champ - there, something a bit on-topic!)... -- Andrew L. Ayers, Glendale, Arizona From mechacoco at gmail.com Sat Dec 13 13:45:23 2008 From: mechacoco at gmail.com (Darren A) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 11:45:23 -0700 Subject: [Coco] Get those hard to find disks... In-Reply-To: <766027.43629.qm@web30202.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <766027.43629.qm@web30202.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5d802cd0812131045j287e3479ha9a8ddcb745de4f7@mail.gmail.com> On 12/13/08, Derek wrote: > When I have used disks that give me a problem and will not format I use > Darren's Coco disk program here : http://www.coco3.com/users/DarrenA/?M=A > > I just run a quick format with that program and then I can use the disks > just fine. Really works well for using MS-DOS formatted disks that will not > run initially on my Amiga and Apple Macintosh SE as well. I just use the > program to do an 80 track Double sided format and then the disks are usable > on the vintage platforms. > > Its also a great tool to write coco disk images to a real floppy but it does > have some problems with some of the coco disk images that are 219K (I > believe that's the size) -- Drerk, The link you gave to the CoCoDisk utility at coco3.com is for an old version. The latest version can be found in the new files repository that Chad H has kindly provided: If you have a disk image that gives CoCoDisk problems, send it to me and I will work on an update to fix it. Darren From bookworm at cavenet.com Sat Dec 13 16:04:32 2008 From: bookworm at cavenet.com (BookWorm) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 21:04:32 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Coco] Color computer these days... (double reply) References: <49413333.2020207@cox.net> <4943DAD0.6000007@gmail.com> <4943E470.7030209@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Ok, I know what you mean. I guess it all boils down to having the time, > patience, and desire to learn whatever it is that you want to learn. I > started with BASIC so it was easy to master. I miss programming in > BASIC. The last time I did some programming was on an old Macintosh > computer using Chipmunk Basic. I don't have access to any of my CoCo's > at the moment because they are in storage. I never got around to > learning OS-9 but I always wanted to. Hopefully I will be getting my > CoCo's out of storage soon. Have a nice day! > > Alan I like Basic too. I couldn't have become an OS-9 nut without RSB. Try it, you might like it! I guess I really shouldn't be taking my general disgust with PC's out on innocent Linux users. From operator at coco3.com Sat Dec 13 16:58:08 2008 From: operator at coco3.com (Roger Taylor) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 15:58:08 -0600 Subject: [Coco] Catalog alert... In-Reply-To: <8CB2B410C4E447F-C50-1F06@webmail-db17.sysops.aol.com> References: <1228982100.5573.9.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <654454.13530.qm@web30208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <5d802cd0812121846l3f8daa38qb536e67018a6c52b@mail.gmail.com> <8CB2B410C4E447F-C50-1F06@webmail-db17.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <20081213215833.2847920A14@qs281.pair.com> At 07:51 AM 12/13/2008, you wrote: >http://www.radioshackcatalogs.com/catalog_directory.html Nice virtual catalogs but the memories of those ridiculously insane prices are haunting me again. :) Radio Shack has survived through today because of their 200% markup, but no item on their shelf shall become popular again. I think the CoCo was the last widely popular Radio Shack item. -- Roger Taylor http://www.wordofthedayonline.com From fwp at deepthought.com Sat Dec 13 17:48:45 2008 From: fwp at deepthought.com (Frank Pittel) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 16:48:45 -0600 Subject: [Coco] Color computer these days... (double reply) In-Reply-To: <4943E6FE.1060606@cox.net> References: <49413333.2020207@cox.net> <4943DAD0.6000007@gmail.com> <4943E6FE.1060606@cox.net> Message-ID: <20081213224845.GF30685@warlock.deepthought.com> For the most part I agree about Solaris. I do have to admit that I'm a solaris admin and make a living with it. I also have to admit that I don't use it on any of my machines at home. Back in the late '90s when Sun was going to drop x86 support I switched to linux on all of my machines at home and never looked back. I did try opensolaris on my laptop but it didn't work well. The networking (wired and wireless) never really did initialize right. It would take about 4-5 power cycles combined with an additional 7-9 reboots to get it to work and never seemed to be worth the bother. Frank On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 09:46:54AM -0700, Tim Fadden wrote: > Hey what about Solaris? the BEST os on the planet! > > I must admit, I am biased since I work for Sun Microsystems. :-) > > > > Tim.BookWorm wrote: >>>> IMHO linux is for hackers who can't afford a CoCo or a Commodore. >>>> >> >> >>> Bookworm, >>> How long have you used Linux? >>> Just curious. >>> >> >> Uh...I once spent about half an hour looking for information about it. >> >> I just hate pee seas, and anything that sounds potentialy more >> frustrating than windows is out of the question. >> >> I was going to install '98, 2k, OS/2, Linux, Xenix, AIX, and C-DOS 386. >> But now with 2k & 98, 2k is a frequent pain and 98 barely works. Forget >> all of that. OS- >> 9, Disk Basic, Flex, CP/M, TRS-DOS, Geos, and ark are more fun anyway. >> >> >> -- >> Coco mailing list >> Coco at maltedmedia.com >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco >> >> >> > > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco From deemcr at robinson-west.com Sat Dec 13 18:46:09 2008 From: deemcr at robinson-west.com (Michael Robinson) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 15:46:09 -0800 Subject: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... Message-ID: <1229211969.5576.11.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> Michael, 1- CoCo3 Refurb 128k Grade A $ 50 1- 512k Memory Upgrade $ 40 1- Install and test 512k upgrade $10 ----------------------------- sub $100 s/h $ 20 UPS Ground lower 48 ------------------- Total $120 USD Quote good until 12/19/2008 or out of stock whichever is sooner. Send payment to mark at cloud9tech.com at www.paypal.com Thanks, Mark I am looking into ordering a grade A COCO 3 and I may want the memory upgrade. So the memory at $40 and a coco 3 at $50 plus shipping, what would that be total? It's not the $2k that my coco cost without a 512k upgrade, but it is still a lot. Plus, this is without a joystick, something cloud9 doesn't sell. Couldn't I get my nephew a Pentium 4 and install Linux to it for this kind of money? All he has is a tape drive and my mult pak interface that works with his coco 2. It is legal to reverse engineer unsupported hardware, why doesn't cloud 9 do that? I don't like the part about buying a used computer, but I can see why that is. Radio shack doesn't make coco's anymore sadly enough. It started out as maybe $50 for a coco and that possibly being okay... Well, I figured it should get a memory upgrade. Here are the downsides I see to getting my nephew a Coco 3: 1) No C programming. 2) He doesn't seem to have any Coco 3 games let alone 512k coco3 games. 3) No joystick and no way to get one. 4) I have Diecom Product's Gantlet II, but it doesn't work with drivewire and it definitely won't run off a tape drive. 5) I could see about an SVD disk drive, but they are limited and they cost $110. This virtual disk drive may not support Gauntlet II. 6) I don't have any functional disk drives. From brucewcalkins at charter.net Sat Dec 13 19:19:39 2008 From: brucewcalkins at charter.net (Bruce W. Calkins) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 19:19:39 -0500 Subject: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... References: <1229211969.5576.11.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> Message-ID: > Here are the downsides I see to getting my nephew a Coco 3: > 1) No C programming. There is a C compiler that runs under OS-9. It comes complete with run-time OS-9. > 2) He doesn't seem to have any Coco 3 games let alone 512k coco3 games. A LOT can be found on line. > 3) No joystick and no way to get one. They show up on eBay now and then. They don't seem to get very high priced either. > 6) I don't have any functional disk drives. Again eBay, they do however seem to still be worth something. There are a few more out there that might be for sale, if and when you find them. If he is learning computing, the P4 with LINUX and Open Office will do more now, and probably set him up better for school. In the last 5 semesters of college, I have not even fired up a CoCo, but I've typed a lot of papers. I don't expect to use my CoCos for school next semester either. (Hopefully my last semester.) Bruce W. From wdg3rd at comcast.net Sat Dec 13 19:31:56 2008 From: wdg3rd at comcast.net (wdg3rd at comcast.net) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 00:31:56 +0000 Subject: [Coco] Color computer these days... (double reply) Message-ID: <121420080031.14879.494453FC00019D0B00003A1F22007348300B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: BookWorm > > Ok, I know what you mean. I guess it all boils down to having the time, > > patience, and desire to learn whatever it is that you want to learn. I > > started with BASIC so it was easy to master. I miss programming in > > BASIC. The last time I did some programming was on an old Macintosh > > computer using Chipmunk Basic. I don't have access to any of my CoCo's > > at the moment because they are in storage. I never got around to > > learning OS-9 but I always wanted to. Hopefully I will be getting my > > CoCo's out of storage soon. Have a nice day! > > > > Alan > > I like Basic too. I couldn't have become an OS-9 nut without RSB. Try it, you > might like it! > > I guess I really shouldn't be taking my general disgust with PC's out on > innocent Linux users. I'll mention that to the next innocent Linux user I meet. Don't expect to. Innocent=Ignorant. Every Linux user I know knows quite well the crap that Microsoft inflicts on the ignorant. Microsoft turned to the Dark Side when somebody decided that they should sell operating systems rather than just languages and applications. Yeah, I run Linux most of the time (well, 24x7 on two machines in this house, so I guess that's all of the time). At work, it's a Windows shop due to Quickbooks and the other-party inventory system. Funny, everybody knows how much I hate Windows due to my constant bitching, but since I'm the only remotely computer-literate guy around (we sell parts to fix box trucks -- not the truck part, the box part), when something f_cks up, I'm the one that fixes it (I wish I could fix it like a veterinarian does a tomcat, not like a mechanic does a car). The boss doesn't know I've installed Ubuntu (and Drupal and Scribus) on an abandoned machine to revamp the web site [I didn't build it, I just maintain it] and the catalog [currently in MS Publisher -- ditto] in my "spare" time. (Mostly, I'm a clerk, a bit of a drop in salary [85%] from the days as a sysadmin, but there's less stress and my liver and heart thank me for it). And, yes, I too started with BASIC. In my case, on an HP-2000A timeshare system when I was fresh out of the USAF, switching over to TRS-80 (it wasn't called the Model One yet, since the Model Two didn't appear until July 1979). I wrote a program on the Mod One (also works on the CoCo, and with an occasional adjustment to the RND() function at least through GWBASIC). It got me my start in the computer biz, as instructor at an RSCC just opening, with a couple of moves that job lasted well over five years. In the first half of the 80s, I was the only RSCC support person in southern California who gave any support at all to the Color Computer. Oh yeah, that program I wrote is at http://home.comcast.net/~wdg3rd/Computer_Cantos.pdf . I submitted it to Kilobaud, in the meantime they started up 80-Micro, so that's where it was published, even though it was in no way TRS-80 specific -- five minutes it will run on a Commodore, an hour it will run on an ATARI 800 (Atari BASIC has HP-st yle string functions, I'm a slow typist even on a good keyboard, and no Atari ever had a good keyboard). Even converted it to BASIC09, but that disk was lost a couple of moves ago, and it took several hours -- BASIC09 is a far cry from BASIC. ("That's moose-turd pie! -- but it's good though). -- Ward Griffiths wdg3rd at comcast.net I thought about being diplomatic and polite. Honest, I really did. But while I was thinking about it, I accidentally bumped the button that puts my mouth on autopilot, because it said, "That's a load of crap, Captain, and you know it". Jim Butcher, _Small Favor_ From badfrog at gmail.com Sat Dec 13 19:45:58 2008 From: badfrog at gmail.com (Sean) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 18:45:58 -0600 Subject: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... In-Reply-To: References: <1229211969.5576.11.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> Message-ID: <9efa17da0812131645x36406b93x54264d4eae34cf4@mail.gmail.com> I replied to Michael directly earlier. I still have the CoCo 3 from all the stuff I sold back in September, the guy that won it never got back to me. Also, if anyone wants to see my collection of rom packs, take a look here: http://picasaweb.google.com/badfrog/CoCoSoftware?authkey=Mio2g8ATA_0# Not sure what to ask for them, and I'm not a big fan of ebay anymore. Sean On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 6:19 PM, Bruce W. Calkins wrote: >> Here are the downsides I see to getting my nephew a Coco 3: >> 1) No C programming. > > There is a C compiler that runs under OS-9. It comes complete with run-time > OS-9. > >> 2) He doesn't seem to have any Coco 3 games let alone 512k coco3 games. > > A LOT can be found on line. > >> 3) No joystick and no way to get one. > > They show up on eBay now and then. They don't seem to get very high priced > either. > >> 6) I don't have any functional disk drives. > > Again eBay, they do however seem to still be worth something. There are a > few more out there that might be for sale, if and when you find them. > > If he is learning computing, the P4 with LINUX and Open Office will do more > now, and probably set him up better for school. In the last 5 semesters of > college, I have not even fired up a CoCo, but I've typed a lot of papers. I > don't expect to use my CoCos for school next semester either. (Hopefully my > last semester.) > > Bruce W. > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > From gene.heskett at verizon.net Sat Dec 13 21:14:34 2008 From: gene.heskett at verizon.net (Gene Heskett) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 21:14:34 -0500 Subject: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... In-Reply-To: <1229211969.5576.11.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> References: <1229211969.5576.11.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> Message-ID: <200812132114.34637.gene.heskett@verizon.net> On Saturday 13 December 2008, Michael Robinson wrote: >Michael, > >1- CoCo3 Refurb 128k Grade A $ 50 >1- 512k Memory Upgrade $ 40 >1- Install and test 512k upgrade $10 >----------------------------- >sub $100 >s/h $ 20 UPS Ground lower 48 >------------------- >Total $120 USD > >Quote good until 12/19/2008 or out of stock whichever is sooner. > >Send payment to mark at cloud9tech.com at www.paypal.com > >Thanks, > >Mark > > >I am looking into ordering a grade A COCO 3 and I may want the memory >upgrade. > >So the memory at $40 and a coco 3 at $50 plus shipping, what would that >be total? > >It's not the $2k that my coco cost without a 512k upgrade, but it >is still a lot. Plus, this is without a joystick, something >cloud9 doesn't sell. Couldn't I get my nephew a Pentium 4 and >install Linux to it for this kind of money? All he has is a >tape drive and my mult pak interface that works with his coco >2. It is legal to reverse engineer unsupported hardware, why >doesn't cloud 9 do that? I don't like the part about buying >a used computer, but I can see why that is. Radio shack doesn't >make coco's anymore sadly enough. > >It started out as maybe $50 for a coco and that possibly being okay... >Well, I figured it should get a memory upgrade. > >Here are the downsides I see to getting my nephew a Coco 3: >1) No C programming. Actually, the MicroWare C compiler is a good starter kit for C. Not very far from K&R C, lacking voids and some bit twiddling ops that can be programmed around, it works fairly well for up to about 10-12k src files, above that you need to swap the c.prep it has out for cprep19, available at RTSI. There are some other goodies too, like ansifront-0.12, which takes other machines code that uses a lot of void declarations, and converts it to syntax this compiler understands. There are a couple of optimizers too, c.opt2 and CnoY(for coco3's only). By the time you get it all in a row, you can compile the newest version of rzsz on a coco3 and it will run on any coco with os9. I did rzsz-3.24 and rzsz-3.36 that way. Some of the code I did on the coco3, I also compiled on an amiga, and now have available here on linux, like cntx, the c syntax checker, and actually checking a couple of things here that I never got around to doing on the coco version. >2) He doesn't seem to have any Coco 3 games let alone 512k coco3 games. >3) No joystick and no way to get one. >4) I have Diecom Product's Gantlet II, but it doesn't work with > drivewire and it definitely won't run off a tape drive. >5) I could see about an SVD disk drive, but they are limited and > they cost $110. This virtual disk drive may not support Gauntlet II. >6) I don't have any functional disk drives. A good cleaning of the heads and slider rails they move on with a spot or two of lubrication on the sliders will restore most of them to operation. Except a TEC maybe. I have only managed to wear our the heads on 2 drives in all the years I ran floppies, & that was on a pair of full height Tandon 100-4's, 720k drives I ran at 84 tracks for 765k capacity. And I probably got 2500 motor on hours out of them before the heads faded into the sunset of old age. That is good head life BTW. Heads can be difficult to reach, I soak a Sherwood Medical Q-Tip (see your local druggist as they are usually a pharmacy item), the one on the 6" wooden stick, in paint thinner alcohol, and gently scrub the faces of the heads. Toss the stick, never put a dirty one back into the can to re-wet it. Use a new one each time, they are <$20 a 1000. You'll need the drive out of the box to ease access to the heads, through the front, the drive spindle is in the way as they are directly behind it, 2" deeper in the works. -- Cheers, Gene "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Preserve wildlife -- pickle a squirrel today! From operator at coco3.com Sat Dec 13 21:39:55 2008 From: operator at coco3.com (Roger Taylor) Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 20:39:55 -0600 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet status and ideas Message-ID: <20081214024020.F134B20A15@qs281.pair.com> I'm not sure what other brands of software-free RS-232 to Bluetooth adaptors are out there, but just as an example here is the IOGear brand: http://www.iogear.com/product/GBS301/ A dongle like this just connects to two serial devices just like a long cable would connect. It's supposed to be that simple. I doubt $99.95 x 2 is ideal for making a wireless CoCo, but that depends on how bad you want to give your CoCo wireless floppies and internet access. My new serial cables (CoCo to DB-9 female) should be ready in a few weeks. You could get one of mine or supply/make your own to save money but my new versions will be 5 feet long and only soldered on the CoCo end. I suppose a 6 inch version could be made for those who want to connect an adaptor or their own longer DB-9 cable. Null modem cross-overs are not required. My cable does the cross-overs for you. If you really want to save money you could even open your CoCo and solder 3 wires from a stripped telephone cord or other cable to the bottom of the CoCo motherboard to the bitbanger connectors. I did this with one of my CoCo's and ran the cable out of a small hole I made in the back of the case. Ok, enough of the cable talk. CoCoNet is currently a PC server program + a LOADM'able Disk BASIC 1.1 patch or a ROM. The second you turn on the CoCo you can type something like DIR and see a default-mounted virtual disk on the PC. A few coconet.dsk disks will be mounted for DRIVE 0 and 1. The DRIVE command can also be used to turn any drive 0-3 into a virtual or physical drive. Backups and copying from virtual disks to physical disks and vice-versa is just as you'd expect. You mount virtual disks from the CoCo like so: DRIVE 0, "c:\finance.dsk" DRIVE 1, "d:\mydata.dsk" Disks you mount stay mounted on the PC. You can turn the CoCo off, turn it back on, type DIR and there are the same disks you last mounted. DRIVE 0,"" turns drive 0 back into a physical CoCo drive until you mount a virtual disk again. The default is VIRTUAL drives when you power up. How about something like this: DRIVE 0,"http://www.coco3.com/coconet/dsk/jeweled.dsk" DRIVE 0,"www.someserver.com/lateststuff.dsk" Virtual disks on your PC can be simultaneously accessed by PC programs, even written to, WHILE they are mounted on the CoCo so long as the accessing program doesn't abort the nanosecond it sees the file open. Most programs would try again a few times or wait for a file to become unlocked. As long as you aren't typing DIR or running some heavy disk access program on the CoCo, you could do stuff like building Rainbow IDE virtual disks then typing DIR on the CoCo to see the contents right then. You would just type DRIVE #,"c:\program files\rainbow ide\projects\myproject\disks\disk1.dsk" or something similar and your ready. Imagine turning your CoCo on every day and typing DIR to see a new floppy disk offered by CoCo3.com or somebody else. Ofcourse, that's possible. and something like this: 10 DRIVE 0,"c:\coconet\coconet.dsk" 20 DRIVE 1,"d:\workdisk.dsk":DSKINI 1 30 DLOAD 1,"http:\\www.coco3.com","index.htm" 50 OPEN "I",1,"INDEX.HTM" 60 ...... do something with the web page ..... 70 CLOSE #1 Anybody have a CoCo HTML viewer in BASIC yet? Now's the time. I'm working now to put in an automatic DOS command on power-up, or RUN "*.BAS:0" which only gets executed if the option is selected either from the PC server app or the CoCo. DRIVE 0,DOS or some other keyword will be used to do this. Every time you turn the CoCo on, the DOS command would get called. The PC server app can turn it off. -- Roger Taylor http://www.wordofthedayonline.com From diegoba at adinet.com.uy Sat Dec 13 22:18:30 2008 From: diegoba at adinet.com.uy (Diego Barizo) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 01:18:30 -0200 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet status and ideas In-Reply-To: <20081214024020.F134B20A15@qs281.pair.com> References: <20081214024020.F134B20A15@qs281.pair.com> Message-ID: <49447B06.9090600@adinet.com.uy> FWIW, I wrote some kind of HTML viewer in BASIC a while ago. Since it does all the text rendering using DRAW, and was the first program I was writting since the 90's, it's quite slow and poorly written, but might give some ideas to others... http://yaccs.info/PROGRAMAS/NETSCOCO/netscoco.html Diego Roger Taylor wrote: > > > 10 DRIVE 0,"c:\coconet\coconet.dsk" > 20 DRIVE 1,"d:\workdisk.dsk":DSKINI 1 > 30 DLOAD 1,"http:\\www.coco3.com","index.htm" > 50 OPEN "I",1,"INDEX.HTM" > 60 ...... do something with the web page ..... > 70 CLOSE #1 > > Anybody have a CoCo HTML viewer in BASIC yet? Now's the time. > > I'm working now to put in an automatic DOS command on power-up, or RUN > "*.BAS:0" which only gets executed if the option is selected either > from the PC server app or the CoCo. > > DRIVE 0,DOS or some other keyword will be used to do this. Every time > you turn the CoCo on, the DOS command would get called. The PC server > app can turn it off. From mark at cloud9tech.com Sun Dec 14 06:22:57 2008 From: mark at cloud9tech.com (Mark Marlette) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 05:22:57 -0600 Subject: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... In-Reply-To: <1229211969.5576.11.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> References: <1229211969.5576.11.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20081214045223.02f84d30@cloud9tech.com> Michael, Did you ask me if I had joysticks? No, you did not, I can't read your mind. I have many and several different types. Also if you feel that my prices are out of line. You can always spend the time it takes to research the design, create a product, produce it, and support it on your own. That is what is so great about the CoCo. All hobbies take money and everyone has their own personnel reasons to set their limits /priorities as do I to set my own price for our products. I supplied you with a quote for what you were asking for. If you didn't want the memory installed. Then you could take the time yourself and install the memory, all the documentation is included. Please be advised that the memory test program is distributed on a floppy disk. Most of my customers like to have everything installed and working when they receive their order. Instead you choose to take a personnel quote and post it with my PayPal account on a public forum. Maybe you thought the $50(CoCo3) + $40(Memory) was suppose to come out to something different or that the prices included shipping/handling when it is clearly posted as such on our web site. Maybe you think that my shipping charges are too high. Just remember that I do not manufacture the CoCo3. These were purchased as a bulk deal and I had to pay shipping on these items, so there is additional $$$ in that line to cover the double shipping costs. Regards, Mark Cloud-9 At 12/13/2008 05:46 PM, you wrote: >Michael, > >1- CoCo3 Refurb 128k Grade A $ 50 >1- 512k Memory Upgrade $ 40 >1- Install and test 512k upgrade $10 >----------------------------- >sub $100 >s/h $ 20 UPS Ground lower 48 >------------------- >Total $120 USD > >Quote good until 12/19/2008 or out of stock whichever is sooner. > >Send payment to mark at cloud9tech.com at www.paypal.com > >Thanks, > >Mark > > >I am looking into ordering a grade A COCO 3 and I may want the memory >upgrade. > >So the memory at $40 and a coco 3 at $50 plus shipping, what would that >be total? > >It's not the $2k that my coco cost without a 512k upgrade, but it >is still a lot. Plus, this is without a joystick, something >cloud9 doesn't sell. Couldn't I get my nephew a Pentium 4 and >install Linux to it for this kind of money? All he has is a >tape drive and my mult pak interface that works with his coco >2. It is legal to reverse engineer unsupported hardware, why >doesn't cloud 9 do that? I don't like the part about buying >a used computer, but I can see why that is. Radio shack doesn't >make coco's anymore sadly enough. > >It started out as maybe $50 for a coco and that possibly being okay... >Well, I figured it should get a memory upgrade. > >Here are the downsides I see to getting my nephew a Coco 3: >1) No C programming. >2) He doesn't seem to have any Coco 3 games let alone 512k coco3 games. >3) No joystick and no way to get one. >4) I have Diecom Product's Gantlet II, but it doesn't work with > drivewire and it definitely won't run off a tape drive. >5) I could see about an SVD disk drive, but they are limited and > they cost $110. This virtual disk drive may not support Gauntlet II. >6) I don't have any functional disk drives. > > >-- >Coco mailing list >Coco at maltedmedia.com >http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.17/1846 - Release Date: >12/12/2008 6:59 PM From operator at coco3.com Sun Dec 14 08:23:08 2008 From: operator at coco3.com (Roger Taylor) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 07:23:08 -0600 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet status and ideas In-Reply-To: <49447B06.9090600@adinet.com.uy> References: <20081214024020.F134B20A15@qs281.pair.com> <49447B06.9090600@adinet.com.uy> Message-ID: <20081214132337.8102920A14@qs281.pair.com> At 09:18 PM 12/13/2008, you wrote: >FWIW, I wrote some kind of HTML viewer in BASIC a while ago. >Since it does all the text rendering using DRAW, and was the first >program I was writting since the 90's, it's quite slow and poorly >written, but might give some ideas to others... >http://yaccs.info/PROGRAMAS/NETSCOCO/netscoco.html > >Diego Your program should be able to just insert a line at the top that grabs the HTML file from the net. DLOAD 0,"someURL","INDEX.HTM" -- Roger Taylor http://www.wordofthedayonline.com From deemcr at robinson-west.com Sun Dec 14 08:27:42 2008 From: deemcr at robinson-west.com (Michael Robinson) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 05:27:42 -0800 Subject: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20081214045223.02f84d30@cloud9tech.com> References: <1229211969.5576.11.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20081214045223.02f84d30@cloud9tech.com> Message-ID: <1229261262.27483.21.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> > Instead you choose to take a personnel quote and post it with my > PayPal account on a public forum. Maybe you thought the $50(CoCo3) + > $40(Memory) was suppose to come out to something different or that > the prices included shipping/handling when it is clearly posted as > such on our web site. Your paypal email address gives someone else what they need to do business with you and nothing else. > Maybe you think that my shipping charges are too high. Just remember > that I do not manufacture the CoCo3. These were purchased as a bulk > deal and I had to pay shipping on these items, so there is additional > $$$ in that line to cover the double shipping costs. > > Regards, > > Mark > Cloud-9 If cloud9 sells joysticks, why aren't they advertised on the web site??? Second off, what does posting the email address to paypal you at do to hurt your business??? Third off, what does it hurt to ask on a coco forum what others think of getting a COCO from you? The color computer is arguably a good machine to start programming on, but it is very limited. If I sink $120 into one and my nephew ends up needing a modern computer, I'll be wondering if I should have just given him my own coco. I notice that noone seems to be aware of Cloud 9 having joysticks, surely someone would have suggested that if it were general knowledge. I don't understand your attitude Mark. How do you come to the conclusion, aside from me saying it is an expensive quote, that I'm bad mouthing your business? I wish there was a business other than cloud9 for COCO fans because you seem demanding to me Mark. It sounds to me like you expected to have an easier time selling your COCO stock. If that's the case, I am sorry that things haven't gone as well as you had hoped. From brucewcalkins at charter.net Sun Dec 14 09:06:25 2008 From: brucewcalkins at charter.net (Bruce W. Calkins) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 09:06:25 -0500 Subject: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... References: <1229211969.5576.11.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com><6.2.5.6.2.20081214045223.02f84d30@cloud9tech.com> <1229261262.27483.21.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> Message-ID: > I wish there was a business other than cloud9 for COCO fans because you > seem demanding to me Mark. It sounds to me like you expected to have > an easier time selling your COCO stock. If that's the case, I am sorry > that things haven't gone as well as you had hoped. This whine, rubs a raw nerve, and those who know me, know that does not happen often! When the other companies threw in their chips and sent piles of CoCo related items to the landfill, Mark reached into his own pocket and rescued as much as he could. His prices are scarcely more than what he has into the items. Were he a business, rather than a hobbyist, his prices would be FIVE TIMES or more what they are. The reason that he is the only one left in the CoCo supply side is that NO ONE else invested their TIME and PERSONAL MONEY to rescue the stock. For most practical purposes, the CoCo has been a dead horse for years. For those of us who find pleasure in them, Mark is the man. Now, if you don't like the state of the shrinking CoCo world, you won't be missed when you ride out on your high horse. Bruce W. From boisy at tee-boy.com Sun Dec 14 09:13:44 2008 From: boisy at tee-boy.com (Boisy Pitre) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 08:13:44 -0600 Subject: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... In-Reply-To: References: <1229211969.5576.11.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com><6.2.5.6.2.20081214045223.02f84d30@cloud9tech.com> <1229261262.27483.21.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> Message-ID: Bruce, Thanks for pointing this out and balancing the perspective a little bit here. Regards, Boisy G. Pitre -- Tee-Boy Email: boisy at tee-boy.com Web: http://www.tee-boy.com On Dec 14, 2008, at 8:06 AM, Bruce W. Calkins wrote: > > >> I wish there was a business other than cloud9 for COCO fans because >> you >> seem demanding to me Mark. It sounds to me like you expected to have >> an easier time selling your COCO stock. If that's the case, I am >> sorry >> that things haven't gone as well as you had hoped. > > > > This whine, rubs a raw nerve, and those who know me, know that does > not happen often! > > > > When the other companies threw in their chips and sent piles of CoCo > related items to the landfill, Mark reached into his own pocket and > rescued as much as he could. His prices are scarcely more than what > he has into the items. Were he a business, rather than a hobbyist, > his prices would be FIVE TIMES or more what they are. The reason > that he is the only one left in the CoCo supply side is that NO ONE > else invested their TIME and PERSONAL MONEY to rescue the stock. > For most practical purposes, the CoCo has been a dead horse for > years. For those of us who find pleasure in them, Mark is the man. > > > > Now, if you don't like the state of the shrinking CoCo world, you > won't be missed when you ride out on your high horse. > > > > Bruce W. > > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco From boisy at tee-boy.com Sun Dec 14 10:07:47 2008 From: boisy at tee-boy.com (Boisy Pitre) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 09:07:47 -0600 Subject: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... In-Reply-To: <1229211969.5576.11.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> References: <1229211969.5576.11.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> Message-ID: It seems to me you're asking questions that you already know the answer to. On Dec 13, 2008, at 5:46 PM, Michael Robinson wrote: > I am looking into ordering a grade A COCO 3 and I may want the memory > upgrade. > > So the memory at $40 and a coco 3 at $50 plus shipping, what would > that > be total? The total would be $90. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make by asking such a basic question. > It's not the $2k that my coco cost without a 512k upgrade, but it > is still a lot. Plus, this is without a joystick, something > cloud9 doesn't sell. Couldn't I get my nephew a Pentium 4 and > install Linux to it for this kind of money? All he has is a > tape drive and my mult pak interface that works with his coco > 2. It is legal to reverse engineer unsupported hardware, why > doesn't cloud 9 do that? I don't like the part about buying > a used computer, but I can see why that is. Radio shack doesn't > make coco's anymore sadly enough. > > It started out as maybe $50 for a coco and that possibly being okay... > Well, I figured it should get a memory upgrade. > > Here are the downsides I see to getting my nephew a Coco 3: > 1) No C programming. > 2) He doesn't seem to have any Coco 3 games let alone 512k coco3 > games. > 3) No joystick and no way to get one. > 4) I have Diecom Product's Gantlet II, but it doesn't work with > drivewire and it definitely won't run off a tape drive. > 5) I could see about an SVD disk drive, but they are limited and > they cost $110. This virtual disk drive may not support Gauntlet > II. > 6) I don't have any functional disk drives. Surely you realize that a Linux system would represent a better value for your money given your list of requirements. I'm not sure what the point of this post is. Is it to point out how expensive a hobby like the CoCo can be vis-a-vis modern commodity computing? That's a no- brainer that I think everyone here appreciates and understands. Is it to criticize Cloud-9's pricing policy? Others have made it abundantly clear why prices are the way they are. Again, it seems like you're asking questions that you should already know the answer to. At this stage in the game, we all know that the CoCo is a hobby that harkens us back to another time when computing was much more simple and fun. And a hobby is just that: a hobby. People spend inordinate amounts of money on their hobbies, be it hunting, fishing, sailing, flying, etc. The CoCo is no different. If you really are torn between a CoCo and a Linux system, then I think you may be missing the point of why Cloud-9 is in business and what expectations of the vast majority of our customers hold. Regards, Boisy G. Pitre -- Tee-Boy Mobile: 337.781.3570 Email: boisy at tee-boy.com Web: http://www.tee-boy.com From wdg3rd at comcast.net Sun Dec 14 10:37:08 2008 From: wdg3rd at comcast.net (wdg3rd at comcast.net) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 15:37:08 +0000 Subject: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... Message-ID: <121420081537.6203.494528240000A4CC0000183B22058861720B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> From: Michael Robinson > I wish there was a business other than cloud9 for COCO fans because you > seem demanding to me Mark. It sounds to me like you expected to have > an easier time selling your COCO stock. If that's the case, I am sorry > that things haven't gone as well as you had hoped. Mikey, if you want Cloud9 to have competition, you are free to invest your own money, time, work and intelligence in creating it. If one of those resources is in short supply, well, that's the Invisible Hand of the Free Market smacking you upside the head. -- Ward Griffiths wdg3rd at comcast.net I thought about being diplomatic and polite. Honest, I really did. But while I was thinking about it, I accidentally bumped the button that puts my mouth on autopilot, because it said, "That's a load of crap, Captain, and you know it". Jim Butcher, _Small Favor_ From operator at coco3.com Sun Dec 14 11:29:38 2008 From: operator at coco3.com (Roger Taylor) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 10:29:38 -0600 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet status In-Reply-To: <20081214132337.8102920A14@qs281.pair.com> References: <20081214024020.F134B20A15@qs281.pair.com> <49447B06.9090600@adinet.com.uy> <20081214132337.8102920A14@qs281.pair.com> Message-ID: <20081214163008.35C7C20A14@qs281.pair.com> Ok, major progress. I'm reading web files from BASIC quite easily. The CoCo powers up, the OK prompt and cursor flashes, and the first thing I might type just for fun is: DRIVE 0,"D:\MYDISK.DSK" (if it doesn't exist, it is created) SAVEW "http://www.coco3.com/coconet.php","INDEX.HTM:0" (For compatibility reasons and to avoid messing with the dreaded DLOAD command, I decided to add the W option to the SAVE command for saving internet files to a virtual disk) Btw, the URL has to be case-sensitive due to the server variations out there. Some servers can store files of the same name but with different letter cases. The web file can be as large as the virtual disk it is saved to. To simplify things so that if no target filename is specified or the disk #, the web file (if in the 8.3 format) would be saved in all caps to the default virtual drive. SAVEW "http://www.coco3.com/coconet.php",A DIR COCONET.PHP ,A saves as ASCII type .bas extension automatically saves as a BASIC program otherwise binary program is the default (you can still OPEN "I" these files) CoCoNet is currently limited to the standard 4 drives and 35 tracks, so further patching would be needed to boost up your storage capabilities. I know how to patch DECB to give 80 tracks, quicker stepping, etc. but there are too many preferences out there and disk mod'ed systems for me to get more into that. If the LOADM'able version of the client (DOS overlay patch) doesn't conflict with your existing Disk mods, I see no reason why more drives and tracks could be used. The PC server app will handle up to 256 virtual disks. The ROM'ed copy is a patch to standard Disk BASIC 1.1. Btw, I've left plenty of space in the 55504-57343 area ($d8d0-$dfff). The most amazing part of CoCoNet is that the code takes up only 754 bytes, leaving 1084 bytes to go. If I flush my code to the bottom of the ROM ($DFFF), this could allow other mods to be put in easier. The CoCoNet version ID will be stored near $DFFF so authors can write programs that won't break if something small changes in one of the BASIC commands. ideas: How about a software real-time clock? SAVEW "www.coco3.com/utc.php","TIME.TXT" OPEN "I",1,"TIME.TXT" LINE INPUT #1,T$ ' GET TIME STRING CLOSE #1 -- Roger Taylor http://www.wordofthedayonline.com From mdelyea at gmail.com Sun Dec 14 11:54:25 2008 From: mdelyea at gmail.com (mike delyea) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 11:54:25 -0500 Subject: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... In-Reply-To: <121420081537.6203.494528240000A4CC0000183B22058861720B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> References: <121420081537.6203.494528240000A4CC0000183B22058861720B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1b52e6c80812140854y40014b0ev969d711c891150d1@mail.gmail.com> Just to let you know, I bought a coco3 with the memory upgrade and a disk drive and controller from Cloud-9 and was totally satisfied. I got my joysticks on ebay for $6.00. Anyway, Mark was very helpful and the service was prompt. I plan on purchasing from Cloud-9 in the future (I want the IDE package), but I need to get my hands on a multipack first. This is a hobby for me and because the coco is obsolete I know that if I want something to add to my enjoyment, I'm going to have to pay for it. So far, its been worth every penny I've spent. On Sun, Dec 14, 2008 at 10:37 AM, wrote: > From: Michael Robinson > >> I wish there was a business other than cloud9 for COCO fans because you >> seem demanding to me Mark. It sounds to me like you expected to have >> an easier time selling your COCO stock. If that's the case, I am sorry >> that things haven't gone as well as you had hoped. > > Mikey, if you want Cloud9 to have competition, you are free to invest your own money, time, work and intelligence in creating it. If one of those resources is in short supply, well, that's the Invisible Hand of the Free Market smacking you upside the head. > -- > Ward Griffiths wdg3rd at comcast.net > > I thought about being diplomatic and polite. Honest, I really did. But while I was thinking about it, I accidentally bumped the button that puts my mouth on autopilot, because it said, "That's a load of crap, Captain, and you know it". Jim Butcher, _Small Favor_ > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > From RJRTTY at aol.com Sun Dec 14 12:22:42 2008 From: RJRTTY at aol.com (RJRTTY at aol.com) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 12:22:42 EST Subject: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... Message-ID: In a message dated 12/14/2008 10:37:36 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, wdg3rd at comcast.net writes: Mikey, if you want Cloud9 to have competition, you are free to invest your own money, time, work and intelligence in creating it. If one of those resources is in short supply, well, that's the Invisible Hand of the Free Market smacking you upside the head. -- Ward Griffiths LOL! You are not drinking again are you? :) You know the Feds are probably still looking for you from last time... by the way I am in the process of moving so my address (snail mail only) is changed for whom it may concern... I never new I had so much coco stuff till I tried to move it all !!!! Roy **************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in one place. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010) From wdg3rd at comcast.net Sun Dec 14 14:22:55 2008 From: wdg3rd at comcast.net (wdg3rd at comcast.net) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 19:22:55 +0000 Subject: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... Message-ID: <121420081922.17286.49455D0F000158CC0000438622135753330B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> From: RJRTTY at aol.com > In a message dated 12/14/2008 10:37:36 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > wdg3rd at comcast.net writes: > > > Mikey, if you want Cloud9 to have competition, you are free to invest your > own money, time, work and intelligence in creating it. If one of those > resources is in short supply, well, that's the Invisible Hand of the Free > Market smacking you upside the head. > -- > Ward Griffiths > LOL! You are not drinking again are you? :) You know the Feds are > probably still looking for you from last time... Whatcha mean "again"? Of course I'm still drinking. The Feds have a lot to look for, and I'm not an active (by their standards) threat, I just can't pass through a TSA checkpoint without some federal employee pointing a gun at me and treating me like a UFO abductee (and they never kiss me afterwards) but that means I'm just like any other slave of the State. Last time I flew was 2003, the next time I fly is when I can again put my rifle in overhead storage and strap the seatbelt across the pistol on my hip). > by the way I am in the process of moving so my address (snail mail only) > is changed for whom it may concern... Hope to do similar, I despise New Jersey. Been stuck here for too frickin' long. I'm from Los Angeles, but I can tolerate hard winters -- this place is in-between and has a crappy government and no respect for the Second Amendment. > I never new I had so much coco stuff till I tried to move it all !!!! Add in a pallet-load or so of Z-80 and 68k Tandy gear (plus the odd peripheral), the Coco stuff is just the frosting on top, for my own move to New Hampshire. www.freestateproject.org > Roy -- Ward Griffiths wdg3rd at comcast.net I thought about being diplomatic and polite. Honest, I really did. But while I was thinking about it, I accidentally bumped the button that puts my mouth on autopilot, because it said, "That's a load of crap, Captain, and you know it". Jim Butcher, _Small Favor_ From farna at att.net Sun Dec 14 15:34:57 2008 From: farna at att.net (Frank Swygert) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 15:34:57 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Color computer these days... (linux) Message-ID: <49456DF1.1050102@att.net> There are so many Linux distributions that it's confusing at first! Basically, all the general computing distros do the same thing. That's discounting the special ones, such as MythTV and the "small" versions, that are specifically geared to do one thing best. There are several "newish" ones like MEPIS and MINT that are specifically geared toward the new user. They install easy and are ready to run right away, just like Windows XP, or easier. The only problem I've had is with the quality and support of some of the software. I need a DTP program that is well rounded in features right now in order to get rid of Windows altogether. I like the idea of free software, and there is a program I could use (Scribus). But some of the features I would need are planned but not implemented, and support is sketchy -- it depends on if someone has had and addressed a particular problem or not. Many have been noted but not yet addressed, or will be addressed in future releases. Not good enough! There's a commercial DTP program (Pagestream) which I may try for Linux too. Cost is reasonable ($100-$150), but support is still limited, though better than some of the free stuff. I have to point out that some of the free software has a much bigger user base and support (usually through a user group) is much quicker. But there is still a lack of support and software in some areas. The whole Linux concept is different, and you have to get used to that. You can't go out and buy software for the most part, you have to install and try several packages before you know much about them. Of course you don't pay for something and find out it's not what you wanted and get stuck with it either. Most of the Linux crowd really fights the idea of commercial software, I've found. They don't care if Linux ever gets mainstream or popular with the strictly user crowd. I find that a turn-off, really, but there are bound to be some anti-establishment people in such a crowd. ------------ Date: Sat, 13 Dec 2008 16:16:32 +0000 (UTC) From: BookWorm >> > > IMHO linux is for hackers who can't afford a CoCo or a Commodore. >> > > Bookworm, > > How long have you used Linux? > > Just curious. > Uh...I once spent about half an hour looking for information about it. I just hate pee seas, and anything that sounds potentialy more frustrating than windows is out of the question. I was going to install '98, 2k, OS/2, Linux, Xenix, AIX, and C-DOS 386. But now with 2k & 98, 2k is a frequent pain and 98 barely works. Forget all of that. OS- 9, Disk Basic, Flex, CP/M, TRS-DOS, Geos, and ark are more fun anyway. -- Frank Swygert Publisher, "American Motors Cars" Magazine (AMC) For all AMC enthusiasts http://farna.home.att.net/AMC.html (free download available!) From deemcr at robinson-west.com Sun Dec 14 15:39:52 2008 From: deemcr at robinson-west.com (Michael Robinson) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 12:39:52 -0800 Subject: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... In-Reply-To: References: <1229211969.5576.11.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> Message-ID: <1229287193.3223.19.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> The total would be $90. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make by asking such a basic question. WRONG! It is $120 after shipping and testing are tacked on. >Surely you realize that a Linux system would represent a better value >for your money given your list of requirements. I'm not sure what >the >point of this post is. Is it to point out how expensive a hobby like >the CoCo can be vis-a-vis modern commodity computing? That's a no- >brainer that I think everyone here appreciates and understands. Is >it to criticize Cloud-9's pricing policy? Others have made it >abundantly clear why prices are the way they are. Why do feel the need to smack me upside the head? Is this really necessary? The coco is popular with my nephew in part because it is a simple computer. Unfortunately, no one is doing the redesign that Tandy wouldn't do and the COCO is dead ended. With modern technology, a 200 mHz or faster COCO successor could be built. That computer would be worth a lot more than a COCO 3 and it would be a lot of fun. Yes you can emulate a COCO on modern hardware, if you can get that to work. A modern pc won't take rom packs and there is no way to connect an actual cassette player to it. >Again, it seems like you're asking questions that you should already >know the answer to. > >At this stage in the game, we all know that the CoCo is a hobby that >harkens us back to another time when computing was much more simple >and fun. And a hobby is just that: a hobby. People spend inordinate >amounts of money on their hobbies, be it hunting, fishing, sailing, >flying, etc. The CoCo is no different. So cloud-9 is about making money off of morons who see the COCO as a hobby, or am I misunderstanding what you are saying. >If you really are torn between a CoCo and a Linux system, then I think > you may be missing the point of why Cloud-9 is in business and what > expectations of the vast majority of our customers hold. Let's see, my nephew likes the COCO3 and is interested in programming it. He is not necessarily interested in Linux where getting him a full blown modern computer might not be popular. Part of me says just get him a COCO, but the other part of me says that this means doing business with cloud-9 which I have had problems with before and am having problems with currently. The products seem to be of good quality, but the customer service is zero. When did people decide that the COCO will never have a future that involves a modern successor and why should they? Tandy won't make one, but the dragon wasn't made by Tandy and it saw some success. The PC doesn't fill every niche, look at the plethora of gaming systems. The problem with gaming systems, for the most part, is that you can't program them. From boisy at tee-boy.com Sun Dec 14 16:16:09 2008 From: boisy at tee-boy.com (Boisy Pitre) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 15:16:09 -0600 Subject: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... In-Reply-To: <1229287193.3223.19.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> References: <1229211969.5576.11.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <1229287193.3223.19.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> Message-ID: On Dec 14, 2008, at 2:39 PM, Michael Robinson wrote: > The total would be $90. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make > by asking such a basic question. > > WRONG! It is $120 after shipping and testing are tacked on. Sorry I failed your quiz. So it's $120. Again, what is your point? >> Surely you realize that a Linux system would represent a better value >> for your money given your list of requirements. I'm not sure what >> the >> point of this post is. Is it to point out how expensive a hobby like >> the CoCo can be vis-a-vis modern commodity computing? That's a no- >> brainer that I think everyone here appreciates and understands. Is >> it to criticize Cloud-9's pricing policy? Others have made it >> abundantly clear why prices are the way they are. > > So cloud-9 is about making money off of morons who see the COCO as a > hobby, or am I misunderstanding what you are saying. Others on this list have already answered this troll of a question. >> If you really are torn between a CoCo and a Linux system, then I >> think >> you may be missing the point of why Cloud-9 is in business and what >> expectations of the vast majority of our customers hold. > > Let's see, my nephew likes the COCO3 and is interested in programming > it. He is not necessarily interested in Linux where getting him a > full blown modern computer might not be popular. Part of me says just > get him a COCO, but the other part of me says that this means doing > business with cloud-9 which I have had problems with before and am > having problems with currently. The products seem to be of good > quality, but the customer service is zero. When did people decide > that the COCO will never have a future that involves a modern > successor and why should they? Tandy won't make one, but the > dragon wasn't made by Tandy and it saw some success. The PC doesn't > fill every niche, look at the plethora of gaming systems. The > problem with gaming systems, for the most part, is that you can't > program them. There's a sign I've seen behind the counter at certain business establishments that basically says: "The price of our items are dependent upon customer's attitude." In spite of the rather rude emails that you sent when asking for help with DriveWire, I made it a point to send you a replacement floppy disk when your defective floppy drive screwed up your original. Yet you have the gall to come on this list and complain about our customer service? Frankly, you represent the worst kind of customer: one who complains no matter what is done to appease you. To be clear: Cloud-9 is a fun side business for Mark and I. As a monetary venture, it has its rewards but doesn't compete in any way with our day jobs, and as such, we have the discretion to deal with customers who are kind, courteous and truly appreciative of the services and products we offer. Rude and overly demanding customers will quickly find themselves on their own, as you have. From deemcr at robinson-west.com Sun Dec 14 16:25:47 2008 From: deemcr at robinson-west.com (Michael Robinson) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 13:25:47 -0800 Subject: [Coco] The COCO 5, some ideas... Message-ID: <1229289948.3530.23.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> http://www.axess.com/twilight/sock/cocofile/coco4.html This design could be adapted further with a more modern bus technology such as PCI. I like that this person is contemplating multiple CPU's in a next gen COCO. Why did the Tomcat and MM/1 fail? Maybe they failed because they weren't a) compatible enough with the COCO3 and b) advanced enough. I propose a coco clone that has 16 bit sound hardware, a built in multi pak with three 40 pin connectors and three updated connectors for a new cartridge standard. This clone should come in a tower configuration. In addition to the two standard joystick ports I propose having a total of four and designing a new joystick port that you can plug the old joysticks into which will take more modern fancier joysticks. I propose designing the processor to run in 6809BE mode where poke 65497,[0123456789] could kick the processor into higher speed modes. I propose reverse enginering the Microware/Microsoft rom and making the new Rom 30% different from the old one to avoid copyright problems. Instead of running 30 pin simms which are disappearing rapidly, I propose going to either PC100 DIMMS or something else that is more recent. The faster the ram, the faster the processor can be. Advantages of a modern hardware COCO clone: No drives needed. Just like the COCO 3, make this clone work on a standard television without hard drives and disk drives. Run COCO3 software, Gauntlet II and games like it might be notable exceptions. Use old style joysticks and rom paks where a software emulator won't work. With modern flash cards holding 16+ megs, build a GUI system in flash memory. More reliable and faster than a hard disk. With modern technology, build an 8 core 16/32/64 bit 6809 compatible processor that can handle meatier programs. 16 bit stereo quality sound, standard. More joysticks, better for gaming. From deemcr at robinson-west.com Sun Dec 14 16:42:28 2008 From: deemcr at robinson-west.com (Michael Robinson) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 13:42:28 -0800 Subject: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... In-Reply-To: References: <1229211969.5576.11.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <1229287193.3223.19.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> Message-ID: <1229290949.3530.37.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> > There's a sign I've seen behind the counter at certain business > establishments that basically says: "The price of our items are > dependent upon customer's attitude." In spite of the rather rude > emails that you sent when asking for help with DriveWire, I made it a > point to send you a replacement floppy disk when your defective floppy > drive screwed up your original. Yet you have the gall to come on this > list and complain about our customer service? Frankly, you represent > the worst kind of customer: one who complains no matter what is done > to appease you. > > To be clear: Cloud-9 is a fun side business for Mark and I. As a > monetary venture, it has its rewards but doesn't compete in any way > with our day jobs, and as such, we have the discretion to deal with > customers who are kind, courteous and truly appreciative of the > services and products we offer. Rude and overly demanding customers > will quickly find themselves on their own, as you have. > Cloud-9's customer service policy folks. I didn't want a replacement floppy, I finally got a replacement rom pak which works fairly well. Boisy Pitre, your problem is your attitude that the customer is always wrong whether it is price or anything else for that matter. I don't like Cloud-9 because it isn't forward thinking. Where is Superboard? It is nowhere to be seen. Cloud-9 is still distributing software on 5.25" 360k floppies even though most people can't pick those up anymore and Cloud-9 is out of 360k disk drives that can read them indefinitely. Even if cloud 9 had 360k drives, they would be $25+ plus shipping. It sounds to me like Boisy and Mark don't take the COCO any more seriously than Tandy did, which is too bad. I don't need all the crap I have gotten for posting the estimate on this list which quite frankly wasn't rude beyond stating an opinion, a single opinion mind you, that $120 is a fair amount of dough for a 512k COCO3. I didn't give the world access to Mark's paypal account, though anyone with a paypal account knows where they can send money to him. It might make more sense to clone the COCO3 than it does to support it at this point. From deemcr at robinson-west.com Sun Dec 14 17:08:25 2008 From: deemcr at robinson-west.com (Michael Robinson) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 14:08:25 -0800 Subject: [Coco] Power Stones of Ard II Tower 3 anyone? Message-ID: <1229292506.3972.0.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> Anyone know how to get past the second level of tower 3 in the power stones of Ard II? From cyberpunk at prtc.net Sun Dec 14 17:42:44 2008 From: cyberpunk at prtc.net (RJLCyberPunk) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 18:42:44 -0400 Subject: [Coco] The COCO 5, some ideas... References: <1229289948.3530.23.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> Message-ID: <7A2175AF275A4F79AFED62B1146DD1F0@FANTASYWARE> Lots of problems with that idea! Who would want to even consider a computer that plugs to a TV set nowadays? It does not have any advantage over either PCs or current console gaming systems From da3m0n_slay3r at yahoo.com Sun Dec 14 17:47:05 2008 From: da3m0n_slay3r at yahoo.com (Bill Barnes) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 14:47:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... In-Reply-To: <1229287193.3223.19.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> Message-ID: <524390.8252.qm@web31101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Sun, 12/14/08, Michael Robinson wrote: > From: Michael Robinson > Subject: Re: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... > Date: Sunday, December 14, 2008, 2:39 PM > The total would be $90. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make > by asking such a basic question. > > WRONG! It is $120 after shipping and testing are tacked on. Ok, He missed the install and testing fee, the shipping can and does vary, and is a part of anything purchased on the net, unless you see the words "Free Shipping," "Shipping Included," or "Shipped." We all must pay shipping, outside of the purchase price. Give him a break already. We all can make mistakes. > So cloud-9 is about making money off of morons who see the COCO as a > hobby, or am I misunderstanding what you are saying. Ummm, you'll make no friends calling people morons. There is also the distinct posibility that a few here may have higher IQs than you. (Statistics say that.) You are free to search eBay, CraigsList, Newspaper classifieds and Thrift Shops to find this stuff on your own too. > The PC doesn't fill every niche, look at the plethora of gaming systems. > The problem with gaming systems, for the most part, is that you can't > program them. The PS3 can run Linux, and can be programmed that way, for free. Yes, to write games for the Native PS3 OS, you need to invest, but it can be done. M$ offers a [free] program tied into C# that allows you to program for the XBoxes for yourself. Now ATTITUDES don't help anybody... There's a saying that goes "You can tell me anything you want to if you tell me in the right way." Let's try to live it. From deemcr at robinson-west.com Sun Dec 14 17:50:36 2008 From: deemcr at robinson-west.com (Michael Robinson) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 14:50:36 -0800 Subject: [Coco] The COCO 5, some ideas... In-Reply-To: <7A2175AF275A4F79AFED62B1146DD1F0@FANTASYWARE> References: <1229289948.3530.23.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <7A2175AF275A4F79AFED62B1146DD1F0@FANTASYWARE> Message-ID: <1229295036.3972.20.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> On Sun, 2008-12-14 at 18:42 -0400, RJLCyberPunk wrote: > Lots of problems with that idea! Who would want to even consider a computer > that plugs to a TV set nowadays? It does not have any advantage over either > PCs or current console gaming systems > > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco It would run off of a rom and be programmable. Most gaming systems aren't programmable. There is the X-Box Linux project, but my understanding is that you are better off getting a normal PC. Not needing a monitor separate from your television has it's advantages. The idea I found on the web is old, very old. I think the first thing one would do is update the idea to take into account what is possible today. The hard part of making a COCO compatible computer is going to be getting the information you need from the COCO 3. Like I said when I offered the link, the idea needs to be updated. From sklammer at gmail.com Sun Dec 14 17:50:38 2008 From: sklammer at gmail.com (Shain Klammer) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 17:50:38 -0500 Subject: [Coco] The COCO 5, some ideas... In-Reply-To: <7A2175AF275A4F79AFED62B1146DD1F0@FANTASYWARE> References: <1229289948.3530.23.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <7A2175AF275A4F79AFED62B1146DD1F0@FANTASYWARE> Message-ID: <3925f0b0812141450x3fadb4d7q7bb91a3d01268917@mail.gmail.com> It wouldn't be too many more years that you'd be hard-pressed to find a TV or panel monitor that'll accept a NTSC/SDTV signal or even a DB15 VGA (using the famous adapter, I forget who :), for the CC3)... However, I do still like the idea of an 'upgraded' Coco using the existing(?) FPGA project... it "could" be field upgradable... 2008/12/14 RJLCyberPunk > Lots of problems with that idea! Who would want to even consider a computer > that plugs to a TV set nowadays? It does not have any advantage over either > PCs or current console gaming systems > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > From sklammer at gmail.com Sun Dec 14 17:53:58 2008 From: sklammer at gmail.com (Shain Klammer) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 17:53:58 -0500 Subject: [Coco] The COCO 5, some ideas... In-Reply-To: <1229295036.3972.20.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> References: <1229289948.3530.23.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <7A2175AF275A4F79AFED62B1146DD1F0@FANTASYWARE> <1229295036.3972.20.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> Message-ID: <3925f0b0812141453o34306a7bu10fbd76263bb707c@mail.gmail.com> For what it is worth, the PS3 as the built-in ability to load an alternate OS - the more popular Linux is from Yellow Dog Systems and there is a project with a prelim distribution for the Wii... 2008/12/14 Michael Robinson > > On Sun, 2008-12-14 at 18:42 -0400, RJLCyberPunk wrote: > > Lots of problems with that idea! Who would want to even consider a > computer > > that plugs to a TV set nowadays? It does not have any advantage over > either > > PCs or current console gaming systems > > > > > > -- > > Coco mailing list > > Coco at maltedmedia.com > > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > > It would run off of a rom and be programmable. Most gaming > systems aren't programmable. There is the X-Box Linux > project, but my understanding is that you are better off > getting a normal PC. Not needing a monitor separate from > your television has it's advantages. The idea I found on > the web is old, very old. I think the first thing one > would do is update the idea to take into account what is > possible today. The hard part of making a COCO compatible > computer is going to be getting the information you need > from the COCO 3. > > Like I said when I offered the link, the idea needs to > be updated. > > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > From da3m0n_slay3r at yahoo.com Sun Dec 14 17:55:06 2008 From: da3m0n_slay3r at yahoo.com (Bill Barnes) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 14:55:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Coco] The COCO 5, some ideas... In-Reply-To: <7A2175AF275A4F79AFED62B1146DD1F0@FANTASYWARE> Message-ID: <593078.12948.qm@web31101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Most Consoles now days will hook up, in addition to composite video, HDMI, Component Video, and Super-Video (IIRC). Some have the ability to even use monitors. Flexability is the key... if more than one can be incorporated, it allows for flexability. -Later! ?-WB-??? -- BABIC Computer Consulting. --- On Sun, 12/14/08, RJLCyberPunk wrote: > From: RJLCyberPunk > Subject: Re: [Coco] The COCO 5, some ideas... > To: "CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts" > Date: Sunday, December 14, 2008, 4:42 PM > Lots of problems with that idea! Who would want to even > consider a computer that plugs to a TV set nowadays? It does > not have any advantage over either PCs or current console > gaming systems > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco From deemcr at robinson-west.com Sun Dec 14 17:58:50 2008 From: deemcr at robinson-west.com (Michael Robinson) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 14:58:50 -0800 Subject: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... In-Reply-To: <524390.8252.qm@web31101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <524390.8252.qm@web31101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1229295531.3972.28.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> Two wrongs don't make a right... "Ummm, you'll make no friends calling people morons. There is also the distinct posibility that a few here may have higher IQs than you. (Statistics say that.) You are free to search eBay, CraigsList, Newspaper classifieds and Thrift Shops to find this stuff on your own too." I didn't call anyone a moron, I simply suggested that Cloud-9's it's a hobby and it is very expensive might be akin to calling customers morons. I probably shouldn't have complained on here about the $120 price tag, I'll concede that. I am not stupid if that is what you are suggesting which is far worse than being called a moron IMHO. What Boisy and Mark aren't telling anyone is that I am happy with my memory upgrade and I am fairly happy with drivewire. From da3m0n_slay3r at yahoo.com Sun Dec 14 18:16:38 2008 From: da3m0n_slay3r at yahoo.com (Bill Barnes) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 15:16:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... In-Reply-To: <1229295531.3972.28.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> Message-ID: <126837.57349.qm@web31104.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I'm Not suggesting that anyone is a moron, stupid, or anything of the sort. I was commenting on what could be implied, not that you were meaning it to come off that way. I've just seen too much bickering in here, and I can interpret what is said, wrongly too. For that I apologize. Expense also comes with supply and demand as well as overhead. Wish it wasn't so, but I've been able to see it from both sides. -Later! ?-WB-??? -- BABIC Computer Consulting. --- On Sun, 12/14/08, Michael Robinson wrote: > From: Michael Robinson > Subject: Re: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... > To: "CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts" > Date: Sunday, December 14, 2008, 4:58 PM > Two wrongs don't make a right... > > "Ummm, you'll make no friends calling people > morons. There is also the > distinct posibility that a few here may have higher IQs > than you. > (Statistics say that.) You are free to search eBay, > CraigsList, > Newspaper classifieds and Thrift Shops to find this stuff > on your own > too." > > I didn't call anyone a moron, I simply suggested that > Cloud-9's > it's a hobby and it is very expensive might be akin to > calling > customers morons. I probably shouldn't have complained > on here > about the $120 price tag, I'll concede that. I am not > stupid > if that is what you are suggesting which is far worse than > being called a moron IMHO. > > What Boisy and Mark aren't telling anyone is that I am > happy > with my memory upgrade and I am fairly happy with > drivewire. > > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco From ed.orbea at gmail.com Sun Dec 14 20:22:13 2008 From: ed.orbea at gmail.com (Ed Orbea) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 17:22:13 -0800 Subject: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... Message-ID: <4945B145.4020300@gmail.com> Couldn't of said it better. I have personally purchased several items (hardware and software) from Cloud-9, and have NEVER had any problems or issues with either the product, the delivery or the price. They fill a need that nobody else has done, and while they (as a business) need to make a profit to stay in business, they (at least to me) seem to do what they do, for the "luv of our little CoCo". Ed From mark at cloud9tech.com Sun Dec 14 20:27:25 2008 From: mark at cloud9tech.com (Mark Marlette) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 19:27:25 -0600 Subject: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... In-Reply-To: <1229290949.3530.37.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> References: <1229211969.5576.11.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <1229287193.3223.19.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <1229290949.3530.37.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20081214190631.03044690@cloud9tech.com> First off I would like to thank everyone for the kind words of our business. I can only recall one other unhappy customer in over 10 years of business. Michael, I can see from your 360k disk drive comment that you really have NO idea of what some of the others have already commented on, supply and demand. These drives ARE VERY hard to procure. You can still get them for $49-$125 from other sources. I could give you some links so that you could go tell them their pricing is too high as well. I do have DSDD drives but do not sell them bare anymore. You can buy a disk drive system which has the SSDD drive upgraded to DSDD. Save us both some time, these are heavy, shipping would be more than $20 as I had to pay to have the drives shipped in and then made to be function(if needed), so we don't want to repeat this thread again....... I could have not included the service fee of $10 or 12 minutes to install and test the 512k. Most customers see the value. I wouldn't expect your time to be free, nor should you. I already explained the $20 fee for double shipping. Go see what it costs to have over 1200lbs of CoCo items shipped to a dock via freight lines. Then add the cost of current shipping rates. All items indicated on the web page + S/H. S=Shipping, H=Handling(PayPal fee). Break all of this down in the S/H and it is hardly out of line. This would be a good opportunity for you to start your CoCo5 project. Please keep us posted on your progress. Regards, Mark Cloud-9 At 12/14/2008 03:42 PM, you wrote: > > There's a sign I've seen behind the counter at certain business > > establishments that basically says: "The price of our items are > > dependent upon customer's attitude." In spite of the rather rude > > emails that you sent when asking for help with DriveWire, I made it a > > point to send you a replacement floppy disk when your defective floppy > > drive screwed up your original. Yet you have the gall to come on this > > list and complain about our customer service? Frankly, you represent > > the worst kind of customer: one who complains no matter what is done > > to appease you. > > > > To be clear: Cloud-9 is a fun side business for Mark and I. As a > > monetary venture, it has its rewards but doesn't compete in any way > > with our day jobs, and as such, we have the discretion to deal with > > customers who are kind, courteous and truly appreciative of the > > services and products we offer. Rude and overly demanding customers > > will quickly find themselves on their own, as you have. > > > >Cloud-9's customer service policy folks. I didn't want a replacement >floppy, I finally got a replacement rom pak which works fairly well. >Boisy Pitre, your problem is your attitude that the customer is always >wrong whether it is price or anything else for that matter. I don't >like Cloud-9 because it isn't forward thinking. Where is Superboard? >It is nowhere to be seen. Cloud-9 is still distributing software >on 5.25" 360k floppies even though most people can't pick those >up anymore and Cloud-9 is out of 360k disk drives that can read them >indefinitely. Even if cloud 9 had 360k drives, they would be $25+ plus >shipping. It sounds to me like Boisy and Mark don't take the COCO any >more seriously than Tandy did, which is too bad. > >I don't need all the crap I have gotten for posting the estimate on >this list which quite frankly wasn't rude beyond stating an opinion, >a single opinion mind you, that $120 is a fair amount of dough for >a 512k COCO3. I didn't give the world access to Mark's paypal account, >though anyone with a paypal account knows where they can send money to >him. > >It might make more sense to clone the COCO3 than it does to support it >at this point. > > >-- >Coco mailing list >Coco at maltedmedia.com >http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.18/1848 - Release Date: >12/14/2008 12:28 PM From wdg3rd at comcast.net Sun Dec 14 20:42:00 2008 From: wdg3rd at comcast.net (wdg3rd at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 01:42:00 +0000 Subject: [Coco] The COCO 5, some ideas... Message-ID: <121520080142.25263.4945B5E8000D8EF4000062AF22068246930B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> So quit whining, build it and put it on the market. -- Ward Griffiths wdg3rd at comcast.net I thought about being diplomatic and polite. Honest, I really did. But while I was thinking about it, I accidentally bumped the button that puts my mouth on autopilot, because it said, "That's a load of crap, Captain, and you know it". Jim Butcher, _Small Favor_ -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: Michael Robinson > http://www.axess.com/twilight/sock/cocofile/coco4.html > > This design could be adapted further with a more modern bus technology > such as PCI. I like that this person is contemplating multiple CPU's > in a next gen COCO. Why did the Tomcat and MM/1 fail? Maybe they > failed because they weren't a) compatible enough with the COCO3 and > b) advanced enough. > > I propose a coco clone that has 16 bit sound hardware, a built in multi > pak with three 40 pin connectors and three updated connectors for a new > cartridge standard. This clone should come in a tower configuration. > In addition to the two standard joystick ports I propose having a total > of four and designing a new joystick port that you can plug the old > joysticks into which will take more modern fancier joysticks. I propose > designing the processor to run in 6809BE mode where poke > 65497,[0123456789] could kick the processor into higher speed modes. > I propose reverse enginering the Microware/Microsoft rom and making > the new Rom 30% different from the old one to avoid copyright problems. > Instead of running 30 pin simms which are disappearing rapidly, I > propose going to either PC100 DIMMS or something else that is more > recent. The faster the ram, the faster the processor can be. > > Advantages of a modern hardware COCO clone: > > No drives needed. Just like the COCO 3, make this clone > work on a standard television without hard drives and > disk drives. > > Run COCO3 software, Gauntlet II and games like it might be > notable exceptions. > > Use old style joysticks and rom paks where a software emulator > won't work. > > With modern flash cards holding 16+ megs, build a GUI system > in flash memory. More reliable and faster than a hard disk. > > With modern technology, build an 8 core 16/32/64 bit 6809 > compatible processor that can handle meatier programs. > > 16 bit stereo quality sound, standard. > > More joysticks, better for gaming. From wdg3rd at comcast.net Sun Dec 14 20:45:49 2008 From: wdg3rd at comcast.net (wdg3rd at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 01:45:49 +0000 Subject: [Coco] Power Stones of Ard II Tower 3 anyone? Message-ID: <121520080145.29693.4945B6CD000A1827000073FD22068246930B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> Yeah, but I'm not going to tell you. You'll fail anyway and blame me. -- Ward Griffiths wdg3rd at comcast.net I thought about being diplomatic and polite. Honest, I really did. But while I was thinking about it, I accidentally bumped the button that puts my mouth on autopilot, because it said, "That's a load of crap, Captain, and you know it". Jim Butcher, _Small Favor_ -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: Michael Robinson > Anyone know how to get past the second level of tower 3 in the power > stones of Ard II? From jdaggett at gate.net Sun Dec 14 20:54:52 2008 From: jdaggett at gate.net (jdaggett at gate.net) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 20:54:52 -0500 Subject: [Coco] The COCO 5, some ideas... In-Reply-To: <1229289948.3530.23.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> References: <1229289948.3530.23.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> Message-ID: <4945729C.24738.386486@jdaggett.gate.net> On 14 Dec 2008 at 13:25, Michael Robinson wrote: > http://www.axess.com/twilight/sock/cocofile/coco4.html > > This design could be adapted further with a more modern bus technology > such as PCI. I like that this person is contemplating multiple CPU's > in a next gen COCO. Why did the Tomcat and MM/1 fail? Maybe they > failed because they weren't a) compatible enough with the COCO3 and b) > advanced enough. > Both failed basically to little to late. The MM1 was not coco3 compatible and the Amigas blew them away with software and performance. > I propose a coco clone that has 16 bit sound hardware, a built in > multi pak with three 40 pin connectors and three updated connectors > for a new cartridge standard. This clone should come in a tower > configuration. In addition to the two standard joystick ports I > propose having a total of four and designing a new joystick port that > you can plug the old joysticks into which will take more modern > fancier joysticks. I propose designing the processor to run in 6809BE > mode where poke 65497,[0123456789] could kick the processor into > higher speed modes. I propose reverse enginering the > Microware/Microsoft rom and making the new Rom 30% different from the > old one to avoid copyright problems. Instead of running 30 pin simms > which are disappearing rapidly, I propose going to either PC100 DIMMS > or something else that is more recent. The faster the ram, the faster > the processor can be. > Great. With the low volumes any product like that will have are you willing to pay a grand apiece? > Advantages of a modern hardware COCO clone: > > No drives needed. Just like the COCO 3, make this clone > work on a standard television without hard drives and > disk drives. > > Run COCO3 software, Gauntlet II and games like it might be > notable exceptions. > > Use old style joysticks and rom paks where a software emulator > won't work. > > With modern flash cards holding 16+ megs, build a GUI system > in flash memory. More reliable and faster than a hard disk. > > With modern technology, build an 8 core 16/32/64 bit 6809 > compatible processor that can handle meatier programs. > > 16 bit stereo quality sound, standard. > > More joysticks, better for gaming. > > Better off determining a FPGA Development board and go that route for an enhanced Coco, whether you call it a Coco4/5/6/7 or what ever. Designing a dedicated Coco4/5/6/7/8/9/..../10000 board will be costly and not very practical due to rather low volume. One solution would be the Digilent Inc Nexys2 board. At $99 and $119 for either a 500K or 1.2 million gate device would be a great product for a Coco1/2/3 clone. Also for a limited version of a next generation computer. There are other FPGA boards out there that can cost upwards to $2000 that will do just about what ever you fancy. I From deemcr at robinson-west.com Sun Dec 14 21:12:38 2008 From: deemcr at robinson-west.com (Michael Robinson) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 18:12:38 -0800 Subject: [Coco] Power Stones of Ard II Tower 3 anyone? In-Reply-To: <121520080145.29693.4945B6CD000A1827000073FD22068246930B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> References: <121520080145.29693.4945B6CD000A1827000073FD22068246930B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1229307159.4768.18.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> On Mon, 2008-12-15 at 01:45 +0000, wdg3rd at comcast.net wrote: > Yeah, but I'm not going to tell you. You'll fail anyway and blame me. > -- > Ward Griffiths wdg3rd at comcast.net > > I thought about being diplomatic and polite. Honest, I really did. But while I was thinking about it, I accidentally bumped the button that puts my mouth on autopilot, because it said, "That's a load of crap, Captain, and you know it". Jim Butcher, _Small Favor_ > > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > From: Michael Robinson > > Anyone know how to get past the second level of tower 3 in the power > > stones of Ard II? > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco What a stupid snide remark. Fine, keep it to yourself. From deemcr at robinson-west.com Sun Dec 14 21:18:22 2008 From: deemcr at robinson-west.com (Michael Robinson) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 18:18:22 -0800 Subject: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... In-Reply-To: <6.2.5.6.2.20081214190631.03044690@cloud9tech.com> References: <1229211969.5576.11.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <1229287193.3223.19.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <1229290949.3530.37.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20081214190631.03044690@cloud9tech.com> Message-ID: <1229307502.4768.24.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> On Sun, 2008-12-14 at 19:27 -0600, Mark Marlette wrote: > First off I would like to thank everyone for the kind words of our > business. I can only recall one other unhappy customer in over 10 > years of business. > > Michael, > > I can see from your 360k disk drive comment that you really have NO > idea of what some of the others have already commented on, supply and > demand. These drives ARE VERY hard to procure. You can still get them > for $49-$125 from other sources. I could give you some links so that > you could go tell them their pricing is too high as well. I do have > DSDD drives but do not sell them bare anymore. You can buy a disk > drive system which has the SSDD drive upgraded to DSDD. Save us both > some time, these are heavy, shipping would be more than $20 as I had > to pay to have the drives shipped in and then made to be function(if > needed), so we don't want to repeat this thread again....... > > I could have not included the service fee of $10 or 12 minutes to > install and test the 512k. Most customers see the value. I wouldn't > expect your time to be free, nor should you. > > I already explained the $20 fee for double shipping. Go see what it > costs to have over 1200lbs of CoCo items shipped to a dock via > freight lines. Then add the cost of current shipping rates. All items > indicated on the web page + S/H. S=Shipping, H=Handling(PayPal fee). > Break all of this down in the S/H and it is hardly out of line. > > This would be a good opportunity for you to start your CoCo5 project. > Please keep us posted on your progress. > > Regards, > > Mark > Cloud-9 I am not asking you for a 360k drive Mark. I've already looked into it myself and it is nonsense to spend over $200 for a disk drive IMO. A 1.44 meg floppy drive on the other hand can probably be shipped and sold for around $20. Too bad there's no simple way to use a 1.44 meg drive. Worse than the inability to use a 1.44 meg drive, the media is getting just as hard to come by. That leaves the SVD disk drive, but it doesn't have 360k of memory so it can't replace a 360k floppy drive. I suppose between supply and demand issues and weight, I shouldn't be surprised that 360k drives cost so much. For $100+, it makes more sense to upgrade the plans for the semi virtual diskette drive than anything else. Cloud-9 should recognize the difference between what people want to pay for a disk drive and what disk drives of this era cost. It should also be aware of the media shortage issue. With that in mind, I suggest you find another medium to distribute software on. It was a mistake to try a drivewire disk, but I didn't know I could get a rom pak instead so I didn't ask for one up front. I didn't know that Cloud-9 carries joysticks either when I made the comment that it doesn't. Last time I checked the web site, there was no indication that Cloud-9 carries additional products. Wanna hurt your business Mark? Keep this up. I may have complained when I shouldn't have this round and before, but it doesn't have to go on like this unless you continue to hold a grudge. I will keep countering you for a while at least because I am sick of your tone. From deemcr at robinson-west.com Sun Dec 14 21:54:56 2008 From: deemcr at robinson-west.com (Michael Robinson) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 18:54:56 -0800 Subject: [Coco] ReactOS... Message-ID: <1229309697.5886.11.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> For those who hate Linux or those who need to run Windows software that don't want to pay $400+ for a software license, check out ReactOS. Please don't pirate Windows, that is hard on competitors. ReactOS needs people who can do C system programming. ReactOS is licensed under the GNU GPL. See http://www.reactos.org if you are interested. I assume that at least some of you, if not most, are using Microsoft Windows right now and I know this because Microsoft has a monopoly. This monopoly makes me wonder, what if a successor to the coco that takes the coco far enough forward to compete with the PC came out? Imagine a COCO clone that is downward compatible running either ReactOS or Linux as optional OSes with a more Extended basic as the default language. Be aware that ReactOS isn't out of alpha state yet and it lacks even stable file system support. From tonym at compusource.net Sun Dec 14 21:57:48 2008 From: tonym at compusource.net (tonym) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 02:57:48 GMT Subject: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... Message-ID: <200812142157824.SM05872@[208.76.35.239]> Man, what IS you major malfunction? A few months back you did the SAME THING to Boisy on the DriveWire... Dude, it's REALLY simple - if you don't like the price MOVE THE F*** ALONG Get one on eBay, where it'll be russian roulette on if it even works! I know *I* wouldn't sell my spare 512K CoCo3, with a 15 year-old RAM upgrade for $90, and Mark's offering you a CoCo3 that his hands have touched, with a freaking NEW simm-based 512K adapter, for $90, and you're complaining? I seriously doubt that your bickering whining bitching and moaning is going to cast a different light on Mark. Quite the contrary - it's painting a picture of *YOU*. We all KNOW Mark, and most of us have KNOWN him for over a decade, whereas we don't KNOW you. At THIS point, I wouldn't sell you a dang CLUE if I was Mark... Tony -----Original Message----- From: Michael Robinson deemcr at robinson-west.com Sent 12/14/2008 9:18:22 PM To: CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts coco at maltedmedia.com Subject: Re: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... On Sun, 2008-12-14 at 19:27 -0600, Mark Marlette wrote: First off I would like to thank everyone for the kind words of our business. I can only recall one other unhappy customer in over 10 years of business. Michael, I can see from your 360k disk drive comment that you really have NO idea of what some of the others have already commented on, supply and demand. These drives ARE VERY hard to procure. You can still get them for $49-$125 from other sources. I could give you some links so that you could go tell them their pricing is too high as well. I do have DSDD drives but do not sell them bare anymore. You can buy a disk drive system which has the SSDD drive upgraded to DSDD. Save us both some time, these are heavy, shipping would be more than $20 as I had to pay to have the drives shipped in and then made to be function(if needed), so we don't want to repeat this thread again....... I could have not included the service fee of $10 or 12 minutes to install and test the 512k. Most customers see the value. I wouldn't expect your time to be free, nor should you. I already explained the $20 fee for double shipping. Go see what it costs to have over 1200lbs of CoCo items shipped to a dock via freight lines. Then add the cost of current shipping rates. All items indicated on the web page + S/H. S=Shipping, H=Handling(PayPal fee). Break all of this down in the S/H and it is hardly out of line. This would be a good opportunity for you to start your CoCo5 project. Please keep us posted on your progress. Regards, Mark Cloud-9 I am not asking you for a 360k drive Mark. I've already looked into it myself and it is nonsense to spend over $200 for a disk drive IMO. A 1.44 meg floppy drive on the other hand can probably be shipped and sold for around $20. Too bad there's no simple way to use a 1.44 meg drive. Worse than the inability to use a 1.44 meg drive, the media is getting just as hard to come by. That leaves the SVD disk drive, but it doesn't have 360k of memory so it can't replace a 360k floppy drive. I suppose between supply and demand issues and weight, I shouldn't be surprised that 360k drives cost so much. For $100+, it makes more sense to upgrade the plans for the semi virtual diskette drive than anything else. Cloud-9 should recognize the difference between what people want to pay for a disk drive and what disk drives of this era cost. It should also be aware of the media shortage issue. With that in mind, I suggest you find another medium to distribute software on. It was a mistake to try a drivewire disk, but I didn't know I could get a rom pak instead so I didn't ask for one up front. I didn't know that Cloud-9 carries joysticks either when I made the comment that it doesn't. Last time I checked the web site, there was no indication that Cloud-9 carries additional products. Wanna hurt your business Mark? Keep this up. I may have complained when I shouldn't have this round and before, but it doesn't have to go on like this unless you continue to hold a grudge. I will keep countering you for a while at least because I am sick of your tone. -- Coco mailing list Coco at maltedmedia.com http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco ?????????? From boisy at tee-boy.com Sun Dec 14 22:05:44 2008 From: boisy at tee-boy.com (Boisy Pitre) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 21:05:44 -0600 Subject: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... In-Reply-To: <1229307502.4768.24.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> References: <1229211969.5576.11.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <1229287193.3223.19.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <1229290949.3530.37.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20081214190631.03044690@cloud9tech.com> <1229307502.4768.24.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> Message-ID: <5D4CF624-6B13-44AE-9941-3B9B6E25EE7C@tee-boy.com> The problem of identifying the next media bridge for the CoCo has plagued us for some time. Mark and I have discussed it, and we've determined that keeping 5.25" floppy media as our primary means of deploying products makes sense because: 1. 5.25" media is still available and is cheap (on the order of $1 per diskette) 2. Most CoCo users have floppy drives and expect to get software in that media type 3. It is still relatively easy to obtain floppy disk drives (eBay, etc) for new systems 4. Mark has tools to realign older floppy drives and repair them, keeping them in service longer It may sound like a cop-out to stick with the status quo and not change, but let's look at the alternatives for distributing CoCo software: 1. CD-ROM: cheap media, but very few CoCo owners have a CD-ROM drive hooked up to their CoCo; also would require special hardware and software to access from RS-DOS. 2. SD/MMC/Memory Stick: expensive media compared to floppy; requires Super IDE or other interface to read. 3. Email/network distribution of disk images: the biggest problem here is that there is no consistent and reliable way to place a disk image onto a real floppy that would be successful for everyone; also would require a floppy drive to be attached to a PC. The point? With all of its downsides, the floppy disk as a media distribution vehicle makes the most sense for the majority of CoCo users out there. The CoCo's legacy is 5.25" media, and as such, most CoCo users are comfortable and familiar with that media. Asking our customers to invest in a Super IDE just to load our products on their CoCo, while beneficial to Cloud-9, would obviously alienate those who don't own a Super IDE and don't want to spend the $$$ just to load software on their existing CoCo systems. > I am not asking you for a 360k drive Mark. I've already looked > into it myself and it is nonsense to spend over $200 for a disk > drive IMO. A 1.44 meg floppy drive on the other hand can probably > be shipped and sold for around $20. Too bad there's no simple way > to use a 1.44 meg drive. Worse than the inability to use a 1.44 meg > drive, the media is getting just as hard to come by. That leaves > the SVD disk drive, but it doesn't have 360k of memory so it can't > replace a 360k floppy drive. Adapting a 1.44MB 3.5" floppy drive to a CoCo system can be done (depending on the drive). Cloud-9 hasn't really made such systems available because up until now, 5.25" drives are still available. Given the current demand, the existing supply seems to suffice. The truth of the matter is that there is no magic bullet media that is (a) cheap, and (b) readily available to CoCo users. Holding CoCo users hostage by providing some new media as the only way to use our products would simply alienate too many existing CoCo users. Add to that, the fact that the size of the CoCo market dictates that any new media product requires an initial cost that may seem nonsensical or prohibitive to some because the CoCo's economy doesn't "scale well", and you have the situation that we are in. You mention the SVD solution as a possible solution, but even the SVD requires a floppy controller, which has become as rare as the 5.25" drive you seek to replace; it really doesn't solve the problem. > I suppose between supply and demand issues and weight, I shouldn't > be surprised that 360k drives cost so much. For $100+, it makes > more sense to upgrade the plans for the semi virtual diskette drive > than anything else. Cloud-9 should recognize the difference between > what people want to pay for a disk drive and what disk drives of this > era cost. It should also be aware of the media shortage issue. With > that in mind, I suggest you find another medium to distribute software > on. It was a mistake to try a drivewire disk, but I didn't know I > could get a rom pak instead so I didn't ask for one up front. I > didn't > know that Cloud-9 carries joysticks either when I made the comment > that it doesn't. Last time I checked the web site, there was no > indication that Cloud-9 carries additional products. As I've pointed out, suggesting that we find a new distribution media is easier said than done; many factors complicate the adoption of a new media that will satisfy everyone. So for now, believe it or not, 5.25" media is still the most preferred distribution solution for the majority of CoCo customers. My advice to you is to adapt to that reality or move on; complaining about it isn't going to change the dynamics. Regards, Boisy G. Pitre -- Tee-Boy Email: boisy at tee-boy.com Web: http://www.tee-boy.com From mark at cloud9tech.com Sun Dec 14 22:07:41 2008 From: mark at cloud9tech.com (Mark Marlette) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 21:07:41 -0600 Subject: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... In-Reply-To: <1229307502.4768.24.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> References: <1229211969.5576.11.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <1229287193.3223.19.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <1229290949.3530.37.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20081214190631.03044690@cloud9tech.com> <1229307502.4768.24.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20081214210331.02f84060@cloud9tech.com> Michael, I know it is hurting my business. I got an order today from someone that called himself a moron and wanted a computer and memory upgrade for the price I quoted you. He wanted to not use PayPal and pay with a check or money order so I reduced your quote to him to eliminate the handling fee. We call that being fair, you call it something else. Regards, Mark At 12/14/2008 08:18 PM, you wrote: >On Sun, 2008-12-14 at 19:27 -0600, Mark Marlette wrote: > > First off I would like to thank everyone for the kind words of our > > business. I can only recall one other unhappy customer in over 10 > > years of business. > > > > Michael, > > > > I can see from your 360k disk drive comment that you really have NO > > idea of what some of the others have already commented on, supply and > > demand. These drives ARE VERY hard to procure. You can still get them > > for $49-$125 from other sources. I could give you some links so that > > you could go tell them their pricing is too high as well. I do have > > DSDD drives but do not sell them bare anymore. You can buy a disk > > drive system which has the SSDD drive upgraded to DSDD. Save us both > > some time, these are heavy, shipping would be more than $20 as I had > > to pay to have the drives shipped in and then made to be function(if > > needed), so we don't want to repeat this thread again....... > > > > I could have not included the service fee of $10 or 12 minutes to > > install and test the 512k. Most customers see the value. I wouldn't > > expect your time to be free, nor should you. > > > > I already explained the $20 fee for double shipping. Go see what it > > costs to have over 1200lbs of CoCo items shipped to a dock via > > freight lines. Then add the cost of current shipping rates. All items > > indicated on the web page + S/H. S=Shipping, H=Handling(PayPal fee). > > Break all of this down in the S/H and it is hardly out of line. > > > > This would be a good opportunity for you to start your CoCo5 project. > > Please keep us posted on your progress. > > > > Regards, > > > > Mark > > Cloud-9 > >I am not asking you for a 360k drive Mark. I've already looked >into it myself and it is nonsense to spend over $200 for a disk >drive IMO. A 1.44 meg floppy drive on the other hand can probably >be shipped and sold for around $20. Too bad there's no simple way >to use a 1.44 meg drive. Worse than the inability to use a 1.44 meg >drive, the media is getting just as hard to come by. That leaves >the SVD disk drive, but it doesn't have 360k of memory so it can't >replace a 360k floppy drive. > >I suppose between supply and demand issues and weight, I shouldn't >be surprised that 360k drives cost so much. For $100+, it makes >more sense to upgrade the plans for the semi virtual diskette drive >than anything else. Cloud-9 should recognize the difference between >what people want to pay for a disk drive and what disk drives of this >era cost. It should also be aware of the media shortage issue. With >that in mind, I suggest you find another medium to distribute software >on. It was a mistake to try a drivewire disk, but I didn't know I >could get a rom pak instead so I didn't ask for one up front. I didn't >know that Cloud-9 carries joysticks either when I made the comment >that it doesn't. Last time I checked the web site, there was no >indication that Cloud-9 carries additional products. > >Wanna hurt your business Mark? Keep this up. I may have complained >when I shouldn't have this round and before, but it doesn't have to >go on like this unless you continue to hold a grudge. I will keep >countering you for a while at least because I am sick of your tone. > > >-- >Coco mailing list >Coco at maltedmedia.com >http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.18/1848 - Release Date: >12/14/2008 12:28 PM From wdg3rd at comcast.net Sun Dec 14 22:21:00 2008 From: wdg3rd at comcast.net (wdg3rd at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 03:21:00 +0000 Subject: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... Message-ID: <121520080321.21150.4945CD1C000885680000529E22058864420B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> From: Michael Robinson > Two wrongs don't make a right... > > "Ummm, you'll make no friends calling people morons. There is also the > distinct posibility that a few here may have higher IQs than you. > (Statistics say that.) You are free to search eBay, CraigsList, > Newspaper classifieds and Thrift Shops to find this stuff on your own > too." > > I didn't call anyone a moron, I simply suggested that Cloud-9's > it's a hobby and it is very expensive might be akin to calling > customers morons. I probably shouldn't have complained on here > about the $120 price tag, I'll concede that. I am not stupid > if that is what you are suggesting which is far worse than > being called a moron IMHO. > > What Boisy and Mark aren't telling anyone is that I am happy > with my memory upgrade and I am fairly happy with drivewire. It's not their job to tell people whether you're happy. That's your job. Maybe you're not a moron, but I'll let history be the judge. You're definitely an asshole. I've been a fan of the Color Computer since almost day one. I went to work for the original Evil Empire a few months after they started selling it, as instructor at the Las Vegas RSCC. I left the firm five and a half years later when they had caved to the other two evil empires, and were going to mostly sell IBM compatible systems with MS-DOS. But in the mean time I became a Unix geek (due to Tandy putting [Microsoft] Xenix on the Model 16 &seq) and an OS-9 fan (due to its similarity to Unix and my fondness for Motorola CPU design). (But I'm especially fond of LS-DOS). I assembled the first (maybe the only) multi-user Color Computer system displayed in a Radio Shack Computer Center. The OS-9 (Level One) docs described the commands involved, I made it happen.. Some wire cutting and splicing was involved. Yeah, nowadays I'm mostly a Linux geek. It does what I need it to do. And has for over 15 years, when I grabbed a copy of SLS (predecessor to Slakware) for a 386 box, since my AT&T 3B1 didn't survive the trip from Kalifornia to the east coast. OS-9 and LS-DOS don't make me any money. That's a hobby. Linux does, especially when I'm replacing 'doze crap with something that works. Yeah, Linux has no native application with the full "functionality" of the latest MS-Publisher. Those of us who have to deal with it every day don't consider that functionality all that functional. (Yes, I have a day job). Slightly older versions of Publisher work just fine with WINE on Linux systems. So do most games, if that's what your nephew needs. (I don't care whether my nephews want to play games or not, I just want them back in North America, not in southwest Asia). -- Ward Griffiths wdg3rd at comcast.net I thought about being diplomatic and polite. Honest, I really did. But while I was thinking about it, I accidentally bumped the button that puts my mouth on autopilot, because it said, "That's a load of crap, Captain, and you know it". Jim Butcher, _Small Favor_ From deemcr at robinson-west.com Sun Dec 14 22:58:21 2008 From: deemcr at robinson-west.com (Michael Robinson) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 19:58:21 -0800 Subject: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... In-Reply-To: References: <1229211969.5576.11.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <1229287193.3223.19.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <1229290949.3530.37.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20081214190631.03044690@cloud9tech.com> <1229307502.4768.24.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <5D4CF624-6B13-44AE-9941-3B9B6E25EE7C@tee-boy.com> <20081214191544.9p6l76rfkgk4wswk@xerxes.robinson-west.com> Message-ID: <1229313501.6255.0.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> Fine, it's on the list now. On Sun, 2008-12-14 at 21:25 -0600, Boisy Pitre wrote: > I'll be happy to answer your question if you pose it to the list. > > Regards, > Boisy G. Pitre > -- > Tee-Boy > Email: boisy at tee-boy.com > Web: http://www.tee-boy.com > > On Dec 14, 2008, at 9:15 PM, Michael C. Robinson wrote: > > > > As I've pointed out, suggesting that we find a new distribution > > > media > > > is easier said than done; many factors complicate the adoption of > > > a new > > > media that will satisfy everyone. So for now, believe it or not, > > > 5.25" > > > media is still the most preferred distribution solution for the > > > majority of CoCo customers. My advice to you is to adapt to that > > > reality or move on; complaining about it isn't going to change the > > > dynamics. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Boisy G. Pitre > > > -- > > > Tee-Boy > > > Email: boisy at tee-boy.com > > > Web: http://www.tee-boy.com > > > > How expensive is it for you to distribute software via dsk images on > > a cdrom that can be loaded into drivewire on a PC? CDROMs are > > cheap, > > hold a lot, and most people have a PC that has a cdrom. Don't > > stop offering software on 5 1/4" media, just start offering it on > > cdrom as well. > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From deemcr at robinson-west.com Sun Dec 14 23:25:12 2008 From: deemcr at robinson-west.com (Michael Robinson) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 20:25:12 -0800 Subject: [Coco] Anyone else Power Stones of Ard II? Message-ID: <1229315112.6541.0.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> I am stuck on level 2 of tower 3, can anyone give me a clue? From wdg3rd at comcast.net Mon Dec 15 01:01:15 2008 From: wdg3rd at comcast.net (wdg3rd at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 06:01:15 +0000 Subject: [Coco] FW: Re: torn on getting a coco... Message-ID: <121520080601.26158.4945F2AB000319930000662E22007507840B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> Mikey misspelled the return address. -- Ward Griffiths wdg3rd at comcast.net I thought about being diplomatic and polite. Honest, I really did. But while I was thinking about it, I accidentally bumped the button that puts my mouth on autopilot, because it said, "That's a load of crap, Captain, and you know it". Jim Butcher, _Small Favor_ -------------- Forwarded Message: -------------- From: wdg3rd at comcast.net To: "Michael C. Robinson" Cc: coco at maltediamedia.com Subject: Re: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 05:52:21 +0000 > From: "Michael C. Robinson" > > Quoting wdg3rd at comcast.net: > > I'm an asshole? Thanks for saying that, that must have taken you > > a lot of effort. At least I haven't used profanity on people > > like you are using on me. For an asshole, I'm not a very good > > one. > > You took ten seconds to respond to the first paragraph, and never read further. > Yes, you're an asshole. > > And by the way, there's a difference between the terms "profanity" and > "obscenity". "Asshole" is an obscenity. "Damn you" is a profanity. "God damn > you" is an extreme profanity, since it involves breaking one of the > Commandments. I'm an extreme atheist (not only do I not believe, if a G-D shows > up, I'm against it, so the Commandments don't apply to me). But I try to > respect the language of those who conquered my ancestors. I can only speak > about four words of Welsh, and that's only when I drop a brick on my foot. I > use a God-damned shitload of both profanity and obscenity in my daily speech and > I know which is which. > -- > Ward Griffiths wdg3rd at comcast.net > > I thought about being diplomatic and polite. Honest, I really did. But while I > was thinking about it, I accidentally bumped the button that puts my mouth on > autopilot, because it said, "That's a load of crap, Captain, and you know it". > Jim Butcher, _Small Favor_ From lamune at doki-doki.net Mon Dec 15 02:19:25 2008 From: lamune at doki-doki.net (Mike Pepe) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 23:19:25 -0800 Subject: [Coco] ReactOS... In-Reply-To: <1229309697.5886.11.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> References: <1229309697.5886.11.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> Message-ID: <4C8EB9FD6963BD4C8BA6B0B60FE8E4DD01D8C3@fenestra.lamunet.local> > -----Original Message----- > From: coco-bounces at maltedmedia.com [mailto:coco- > bounces at maltedmedia.com] On Behalf Of Michael Robinson > Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 6:55 PM > To: coco at maltedmedia.com > Subject: [Coco] ReactOS... > > For those who hate Linux or those who need to run Windows > software that don't want to pay $400+ for a software license, > check out ReactOS. Please don't pirate Windows, that is hard > on competitors. ReactOS needs people who can do C system > programming. ReactOS is licensed under the GNU GPL. > See http://www.reactos.org if you are interested. > I assume that at least some of you, if not most, are using > Microsoft Windows right now and I know this because Microsoft > has a monopoly. > > This monopoly makes me wonder, what if a successor to the coco > that takes the coco far enough forward to compete with the PC > came out? Imagine a COCO clone that is downward compatible > running either ReactOS or Linux as optional OSes with a > more Extended basic as the default language. > > Be aware that ReactOS isn't out of alpha state yet and it > lacks even stable file system support. > Well, I hate to sound like one of those guys who shits all over someone's ideas, but I'd like to share my opinion on this if I may. And I'm going to go right past the Linux and Windows stuff because, hey, I'm just biased that way. Certainly count me in as someone who would LOVE to see a "what-if" the CoCo architecture had been extended into modern times like the PC ended up. These are great thought experiments and certainly interesting forays into the theories and fundamentals of computer science and computer engineering. If I may make an analogy though, I kind of see what you are proposing as something like this: "as a kid I loved my Radio Flyer wagon, and I was thinking- if Radio Flyer had just expanded their product line a bit by stretching the wagon somewhat, adding a hundred seats, enclosing the top, throwing on some jet engines and wings, we could have had something that competes with airplanes!" The end result there being, of course, an airplane- which is something we already have- and redoing it presumably at far greater expense than just buying the plane outright. So putting on my engineering hat, I don't really see that anyone would be willing to bankroll the huge cost of developing the hardware and software for a platform that would presumably be able to do what we're already able to do with our PCs and Macs. Unless you're proposing some huge shift in the way people use a computer with this project, I don't think even the most rabid CoCo fans here would think it makes sense. If a project like this were to get anywhere, I would expect it to be something that is a VM that runs on a PC. Certainly something fun and interesting from a computer science and CoCo perspective without a doubt- and not worthless; I'm sure those involved would gather a great deal of knowledge and experience. I just don't think the masses would be very interested. -Mike From badfrog at gmail.com Mon Dec 15 02:34:04 2008 From: badfrog at gmail.com (Sean) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 01:34:04 -0600 Subject: [Coco] ReactOS... In-Reply-To: <4C8EB9FD6963BD4C8BA6B0B60FE8E4DD01D8C3@fenestra.lamunet.local> References: <1229309697.5886.11.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <4C8EB9FD6963BD4C8BA6B0B60FE8E4DD01D8C3@fenestra.lamunet.local> Message-ID: <9efa17da0812142334l626f8f1cw35783d10e8cb3ffb@mail.gmail.com> I wish BeOS would have made it. That was a neat one 10 years ago. Ran the Intel demo version, never had the money to invest in a BeBox. Personally I would have called it the spiritual sucessor to the CoCo. (for one, just because not enough people loved it. :) It's multitasking could run circles around Windows at the time: 3D demos, while playing multiple video and audio files at the same time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BeOS_R5 The demo would run well on a Pentium or PII system, with a standard VGA card, and sound most likely through older Soundblaster cards. http://www.bebits.com/app/2680 On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 1:19 AM, Mike Pepe wrote: > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: coco-bounces at maltedmedia.com [mailto:coco- >> bounces at maltedmedia.com] On Behalf Of Michael Robinson >> Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 6:55 PM >> To: coco at maltedmedia.com >> Subject: [Coco] ReactOS... >> >> For those who hate Linux or those who need to run Windows >> software that don't want to pay $400+ for a software license, >> check out ReactOS. Please don't pirate Windows, that is hard >> on competitors. ReactOS needs people who can do C system >> programming. ReactOS is licensed under the GNU GPL. >> See http://www.reactos.org if you are interested. >> I assume that at least some of you, if not most, are using >> Microsoft Windows right now and I know this because Microsoft >> has a monopoly. >> >> This monopoly makes me wonder, what if a successor to the coco >> that takes the coco far enough forward to compete with the PC >> came out? Imagine a COCO clone that is downward compatible >> running either ReactOS or Linux as optional OSes with a >> more Extended basic as the default language. >> >> Be aware that ReactOS isn't out of alpha state yet and it >> lacks even stable file system support. >> > > Well, I hate to sound like one of those guys who shits all over > someone's ideas, but I'd like to share my opinion on this if I may. And > I'm going to go right past the Linux and Windows stuff because, hey, I'm > just biased that way. > > Certainly count me in as someone who would LOVE to see a "what-if" the > CoCo architecture had been extended into modern times like the PC ended > up. These are great thought experiments and certainly interesting forays > into the theories and fundamentals of computer science and computer > engineering. > > If I may make an analogy though, I kind of see what you are proposing as > something like this: > > "as a kid I loved my Radio Flyer wagon, and I was thinking- if Radio > Flyer had just expanded their product line a bit by stretching the wagon > somewhat, adding a hundred seats, enclosing the top, throwing on some > jet engines and wings, we could have had something that competes with > airplanes!" > > The end result there being, of course, an airplane- which is something > we already have- and redoing it presumably at far greater expense than > just buying the plane outright. > > So putting on my engineering hat, I don't really see that anyone would > be willing to bankroll the huge cost of developing the hardware and > software for a platform that would presumably be able to do what we're > already able to do with our PCs and Macs. > > Unless you're proposing some huge shift in the way people use a computer > with this project, I don't think even the most rabid CoCo fans here > would think it makes sense. > > If a project like this were to get anywhere, I would expect it to be > something that is a VM that runs on a PC. Certainly something fun and > interesting from a computer science and CoCo perspective without a > doubt- and not worthless; I'm sure those involved would gather a great > deal of knowledge and experience. I just don't think the masses would be > very interested. > > -Mike > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > From deemcr at robinson-west.com Mon Dec 15 02:42:51 2008 From: deemcr at robinson-west.com (Michael Robinson) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 23:42:51 -0800 Subject: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... In-Reply-To: <121520080552.5127.4945F095000DBA930000140722007348300B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> References: <121520080552.5127.4945F095000DBA930000140722007348300B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1229326971.10006.9.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> On Mon, 2008-12-15 at 05:52 +0000, wdg3rd at comcast.net wrote: > From: "Michael C. Robinson" > > Quoting wdg3rd at comcast.net: > > I'm an asshole? Thanks for saying that, that must have taken you > > a lot of effort. At least I haven't used profanity on people > > like you are using on me. For an asshole, I'm not a very good > > one. > > You took ten seconds to respond to the first paragraph, and never read further. > Yes, you're an asshole. > > And by the way, there's a difference between the terms "profanity" and "obscenity". > "Asshole" is an obscenity. "Damn you" is a profanity. "God damn you" is an extreme > profanity, since it involves breaking one of the Commandments. I'm an extreme atheist > (not only do I not believe, if a G-D shows up, I'm against it, so the Commandments don't > apply to me). But I try to respect the language of those who conquered my ancestors. > I can only speak about four words of Welsh, and that's only when I drop a brick on my foot. > I use a God-damned shitload of both profanity and obscenity in my daily speech and I know > which is which. > -- > Ward Griffiths wdg3rd at comcast.net I stick my hand on a griddle, it doesn't burn because I don't believe it will burn? Well, that's a nice hypothesis, but it doesn't hold up. Fine, you're being OBSCENE. Congratulations, you have offended everyone and you have lowered your nature. What do you want, people's approval of your atheism? Good luck meeting with God face to face. If God who you don't approve of is too much for you, there is always hell. I'd rather spend eternity in Purgatory though. > I thought about being diplomatic and polite. Honest, I really did. But while I was thinking > about it, I accidentally bumped the button that puts my mouth on autopilot, because it said, > "That's a load of crap, Captain, and you know it". Jim Butcher, _Small Favor_ From deemcr at robinson-west.com Mon Dec 15 02:46:29 2008 From: deemcr at robinson-west.com (Michael Robinson) Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2008 23:46:29 -0800 Subject: [Coco] ReactOS... In-Reply-To: <9efa17da0812142334l626f8f1cw35783d10e8cb3ffb@mail.gmail.com> References: <1229309697.5886.11.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <4C8EB9FD6963BD4C8BA6B0B60FE8E4DD01D8C3@fenestra.lamunet.local> <9efa17da0812142334l626f8f1cw35783d10e8cb3ffb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1229327190.10006.13.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> On Mon, 2008-12-15 at 01:34 -0600, Sean wrote: > I wish BeOS would have made it. That was a neat one 10 years ago. Ran > the Intel demo version, never had the money to invest in a BeBox. > Personally I would have called it the spiritual sucessor to the CoCo. > (for one, just because not enough people loved it. :) > It's multitasking could run circles around Windows at the time: 3D > demos, while playing multiple video and audio files at the same time. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BeOS_R5 > > The demo would run well on a Pentium or PII system, with a standard > VGA card, and sound most likely through older Soundblaster cards. > http://www.bebits.com/app/2680 > > > On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 1:19 AM, Mike Pepe wrote: > > Well. ReactOS isn't BeOS but if it stabilizes it could potentially perform better than MS Windows. I'd just like to see drivewire server run on it. The specs for ReactOS are lower than Linux, which is not saying much considering how unstable it is right now. From Torsten at Dittel.info Mon Dec 15 06:06:55 2008 From: Torsten at Dittel.info (Torsten Dittel) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 12:06:55 +0100 Subject: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... In-Reply-To: <1229326971.10006.9.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> References: <121520080552.5127.4945F095000DBA930000140722007348300B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> <1229326971.10006.9.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> Message-ID: Yaaaaaaaaaaawn... what a boring flame war. Please calm down everyone... :-) Torsten From os9dude at gmail.com Mon Dec 15 06:13:59 2008 From: os9dude at gmail.com (Rogelio Perea) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 06:13:59 -0500 Subject: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... End Of Line - PLEASE! Message-ID: <5631e580812150313g16008b38u2a167472b1ba5c45@mail.gmail.com> It's like... The CoCo Powder Keg Chronicles Could it be because the CoCo does not CTRL-ALT-DEL? Remember guys, here we talk POKE 113,0:EXEC 40999 [ENTER] There... fresh start! ;-) -=[ Rogelio ]=- On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 6:06 AM, Torsten Dittel wrote: > Yaaaaaaaaaaawn... what a boring flame war. Please calm down everyone... > :-) > Torsten > > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > From boisy at tee-boy.com Mon Dec 15 06:43:09 2008 From: boisy at tee-boy.com (Boisy Pitre) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 05:43:09 -0600 Subject: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... In-Reply-To: <1229313501.6255.0.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> References: <1229211969.5576.11.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <1229287193.3223.19.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <1229290949.3530.37.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20081214190631.03044690@cloud9tech.com> <1229307502.4768.24.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <5D4CF624-6B13-44AE-9941-3B9B6E25EE7C@tee-boy.com> <20081214191544.9p6l76rfkgk4wswk@xerxes.robinson-west.com> <1229313501.6255.0.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> Message-ID: <9AC7315D-3021-4AD6-9795-1C2697E24F38@tee-boy.com> On Dec 14, 2008, at 9:58 PM, Michael Robinson wrote: > How expensive is it for you to distribute software via dsk images on > a cdrom that can be loaded into drivewire on a PC? CDROMs are > cheap, > hold a lot, and most people have a PC that has a cdrom. Don't > stop offering software on 5 1/4" media, just start offering it on > cdrom as well. It's not just a matter of media cost, but of media acceptance and what most CoCo users have. The 5.25" floppy drive is still the predominant method for software distribution because it is so widely used, and that is the way Cloud-9 chooses to distribute our software products. Out of the many customers we've served, you are the only one that suggested using CD-ROM as a product medium, and we won't change or modify our distribution method based on the suggestion of one person. CD-ROMs may work for you but doesn't work for the vast majority of our customers. From jlhickle at yahoo.com Mon Dec 15 07:07:52 2008 From: jlhickle at yahoo.com (Jim Hickle) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 04:07:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... In-Reply-To: <5D4CF624-6B13-44AE-9941-3B9B6E25EE7C@tee-boy.com> Message-ID: <669443.86868.qm@web36606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Sun, 12/14/08, Boisy Pitre wrote: > 1. 5.25" media is still available and is cheap (on the > order of $1 per diskette) We were spoiled by 25-cent floppies. One dollar is still cheap; the first disks I bought from Radio Shack cost $10 for 3 single-sided disks. I was happy with that price until seeing disks for 45 cents advertised in the Rainbow. I bought 10 of those, but only six would format. From os9dude at gmail.com Mon Dec 15 07:34:19 2008 From: os9dude at gmail.com (Rogelio Perea) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 07:34:19 -0500 Subject: [Coco] ACCRC Computer Museum Sealed Bid Auction (Happening Now) Message-ID: <5631e580812150434m746d54ebs70d3da2c1029eb44@mail.gmail.com> I received the following as I am subscribed to the VCF mailing list. Those of you close to Berkeley California might be interested in checking this out, there are a few interesting items in their auction list: - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - The Alameda County Computer Resource Center (ACCRC) is forced to liquidate its computer museum due to the current economic climate. The VCF has been contracted to auction off the ACCRC museum to raise needed funds for their non-profit operation. I have put up the first batch of machines at the following URL: http://www.vintage.org/special/2008/accrc/ In order to use the system you must have a VCF Community ID. Getting one is simple: just following the links and prompts when you visit the site above and read the instructions. I have been cataloging the hundreds of items in the ACCRC museum and will be putting up auction lots weekly until the collection is dispersed. There are still many items to go (with lots of duplicates) so check back every week to see the latest batch. All items are offered as-is. Functional condition is unknown unless specified in the item description. For more information about a particular item, please contact the VCF and your inquiry will be answered as soon as possible. Winning bidders will be notified at the close of the auction (see below for closing time). In the event of a tie bid, the winning bid will be the one submitted the earliest. Upon receiving a winning bid notification, payment and pick-up at the ACCRC facilities in Berkeley, California, is preferred. Payment from winning bidders is due within 72 hours after the close of the auction. Non-payment will invalidate your high bid and the item will automatically go to the next highest bidder (no exceptions). Upon request, items will be packaged and shipped at bidder's expense plus a $25 handling fee. Payment in the form of cash, money order, or PayPal (in that order) is preferred. Personal checks will be accepted on the condition that they first clear the bank. All items must be sold. No reasonable offer will be refused. Your purchases will go towards supporting an organization that over the years has provided nearly 20,000 refurbished computers to needy organizations and individuals worldwide. 100% of the proceeds of this auction will go directly to the ACCRC (minus the handling fees, which are covering my time...barely). Please contact me DIRECTLY with any questions you might have of any of the items. I'll be happy to get more notes and photos on particulars items of interest from inquiring bidders. Best regards, Sellam Ismail Proprietor Vintage Computer Festival From coconut at pritchard.ca Mon Dec 15 08:25:34 2008 From: coconut at pritchard.ca (Ryan Pritchard) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 07:25:34 -0600 Subject: [Coco] ReactOS... In-Reply-To: <1229327190.10006.13.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> References: <1229309697.5886.11.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <4C8EB9FD6963BD4C8BA6B0B60FE8E4DD01D8C3@fenestra.lamunet.local> <9efa17da0812142334l626f8f1cw35783d10e8cb3ffb@mail.gmail.com> <1229327190.10006.13.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> Message-ID: <8BDA8430-88F0-4AFC-8CE7-20E402F28670@pritchard.ca> As far as I have read in this mailing list, the specifications of the DriveWire protocol are available on the Cloud-9 website, and if I understand from the Cloud-9 site, and the postings in this list, we are free to develop DriveWire servers for whatever OS we want. It is the client that is what is kept locked up a little and I respect that, since not everyone has a Windows or Mac computer, which I believe are the two server platforms supported out of Cloud-9. Regards, Ryan Pritchard Fun Extends All Basic Life Expectancies On 15-Dec-08, at 1:46 AM, Michael Robinson wrote: > > On Mon, 2008-12-15 at 01:34 -0600, Sean wrote: >> I wish BeOS would have made it. That was a neat one 10 years ago. >> Ran >> the Intel demo version, never had the money to invest in a BeBox. >> Personally I would have called it the spiritual sucessor to the CoCo. >> (for one, just because not enough people loved it. :) >> It's multitasking could run circles around Windows at the time: 3D >> demos, while playing multiple video and audio files at the same time. >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BeOS_R5 >> >> The demo would run well on a Pentium or PII system, with a standard >> VGA card, and sound most likely through older Soundblaster cards. >> http://www.bebits.com/app/2680 >> >> >> On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 1:19 AM, Mike Pepe >> wrote: >>> > Well. ReactOS isn't BeOS but if it stabilizes it could potentially > perform better than MS Windows. I'd just like to see drivewire > server run on it. The specs for ReactOS are lower than Linux, > which is not saying much considering how unstable it is right > now. > > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco From vchester at setec-cr.com Mon Dec 15 09:47:49 2008 From: vchester at setec-cr.com (Chester A Patterson) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 08:47:49 -0600 Subject: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0A9B63EA8B906947A409C6F0295CA07E012B8B09@setec-server.SETEC.COM> Up until I joined this list I did not even understand what was meant by "flaming" or "flame war". Really. This list has taught me the meaning. I had no idea that lists and blogs and such brought out behavior which otherwise was only seen in late night drunken street brawls (seen enough of those) Confrontation and aggression rarely if ever will bring about a favorable result. /Chester -Costa Rica -----Original Message----- From: Torsten Dittel [mailto:Torsten at Dittel.info] Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 5:07 AM To: coco at maltedmedia.com Subject: Re: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... Yaaaaaaaaaaawn... what a boring flame war. Please calm down everyone... :-) Torsten From keeper63 at cox.net Mon Dec 15 10:15:14 2008 From: keeper63 at cox.net (Andrew Ayers) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 08:15:14 -0700 Subject: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1229354114.5643.3.camel@buster> > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 08:47:49 -0600 > From: "Chester A Patterson" > Subject: Re: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... > To: "CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts" > Message-ID: > <0A9B63EA8B906947A409C6F0295CA07E012B8B09 at setec-server.SETEC.COM> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Up until I joined this list I did not even understand what was meant by > "flaming" or "flame war". Really. > This list has taught me the meaning. > I had no idea that lists and blogs and such brought out behavior which > otherwise was only seen in late night drunken street brawls (seen enough > of those) > Confrontation and aggression rarely if ever will bring about a favorable > result. > /Chester Heh - this is nothing - back in the day (even now, in the right forums) flamewars could erupt into something massive, whole lists were crumbled and brought to their knees over some. This? This is just an overly warm area, comparatively... /you - get off my lawn... -- Andrew Ayers, Glendale, Arizona From paulej at arid.us Mon Dec 15 10:38:13 2008 From: paulej at arid.us (Paul E. Jones) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 10:38:13 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Torn on getting rid of my cocos (was: torn on getting a coco...) In-Reply-To: <4945B145.4020300@gmail.com> References: <4945B145.4020300@gmail.com> Message-ID: <01fd01c95ecb$24574180$6d05c480$@us> Ed, I'm in just the opposite position. I have two CoCo 3s, a DMP-105 printer, multi-pack interface, two floppy disk drives in a single enclosure (different drive models; not sure which controller, but they worked when I tested them a few months ago), a few cartridges, sound card (forgot which one -- made by Tandy), and a bunch of old floppy disks I have had since the 1980s, some books, Hot Coco magazines, etc. But, I don't have a monitor; it died in 1992 or so. I suspect the computers, drives, and MPI work, as it has all been in my office all these years. Still, they're boxes up and I'm sure there has been some corrosion (that a bit of rubbing alcohol would fix). I have no means of testing the printer, since it either has no ribbon or its dry -- I have not touched it since 1992. I really love the CoCo, but just don't use it. And, I have no time. If there are others out there who'd like the whole lot and would be willing to pay for the shipping, I'll give you what I have. Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: coco-bounces at maltedmedia.com [mailto:coco- > bounces at maltedmedia.com] On Behalf Of Ed Orbea > Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 8:22 PM > To: coco at maltedmedia.com > Subject: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... > > Couldn't of said it better. > > I have personally purchased several items (hardware and software) from > Cloud-9, and have NEVER had any problems or issues with either the > product, the delivery or the price. > > They fill a need that nobody else has done, and while they (as a > business) need to make a profit to stay in business, they (at least to > me) seem to do what they do, for the "luv of our little CoCo". > > Ed > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > From badfrog at gmail.com Mon Dec 15 11:01:43 2008 From: badfrog at gmail.com (Sean) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 10:01:43 -0600 Subject: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... In-Reply-To: <0A9B63EA8B906947A409C6F0295CA07E012B8B09@setec-server.SETEC.COM> References: <0A9B63EA8B906947A409C6F0295CA07E012B8B09@setec-server.SETEC.COM> Message-ID: <9efa17da0812150801m2818f420vda0653cfba251072@mail.gmail.com> Obviously you've never seen Penny Arcades theory of the Internet comic. (some not safe for work language) http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/3/19/ On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 8:47 AM, Chester A Patterson wrote: > Up until I joined this list I did not even understand what was meant by > "flaming" or "flame war". Really. > This list has taught me the meaning. > I had no idea that lists and blogs and such brought out behavior which > otherwise was only seen in late night drunken street brawls (seen enough > of those) > Confrontation and aggression rarely if ever will bring about a favorable > result. > /Chester > -Costa Rica > > -----Original Message----- > From: Torsten Dittel [mailto:Torsten at Dittel.info] > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 5:07 AM > To: coco at maltedmedia.com > Subject: Re: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... > > Yaaaaaaaaaaawn... what a boring flame war. Please calm down everyone... > :-) > Torsten > > > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > From badfrog at gmail.com Mon Dec 15 11:06:40 2008 From: badfrog at gmail.com (Sean) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 10:06:40 -0600 Subject: [Coco] Torn on getting rid of my cocos (was: torn on getting a coco...) In-Reply-To: <01fd01c95ecb$24574180$6d05c480$@us> References: <4945B145.4020300@gmail.com> <01fd01c95ecb$24574180$6d05c480$@us> Message-ID: <9efa17da0812150806w52767b3n902f1d7b836de16d@mail.gmail.com> That's what I finally got around to doing in September. After so many years of them just sitting there, I came to the sad realization that I'm really not going to put that stuff to any use. If I really miss a game, most of them work under an emulator. The floppy drives and MPI should get you $100 at the very least. On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 9:38 AM, Paul E. Jones wrote: > Ed, > > I'm in just the opposite position. I have two CoCo 3s, a DMP-105 printer, > multi-pack interface, two floppy disk drives in a single enclosure > (different drive models; not sure which controller, but they worked when I > tested them a few months ago), a few cartridges, sound card (forgot which > one -- made by Tandy), and a bunch of old floppy disks I have had since the > 1980s, some books, Hot Coco magazines, etc. But, I don't have a monitor; it > died in 1992 or so. > > I suspect the computers, drives, and MPI work, as it has all been in my > office all these years. Still, they're boxes up and I'm sure there has been > some corrosion (that a bit of rubbing alcohol would fix). I have no means > of testing the printer, since it either has no ribbon or its dry -- I have > not touched it since 1992. > > I really love the CoCo, but just don't use it. And, I have no time. If > there are others out there who'd like the whole lot and would be willing to > pay for the shipping, I'll give you what I have. > > Paul > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: coco-bounces at maltedmedia.com [mailto:coco- >> bounces at maltedmedia.com] On Behalf Of Ed Orbea >> Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 8:22 PM >> To: coco at maltedmedia.com >> Subject: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... >> >> Couldn't of said it better. >> >> I have personally purchased several items (hardware and software) from >> Cloud-9, and have NEVER had any problems or issues with either the >> product, the delivery or the price. >> >> They fill a need that nobody else has done, and while they (as a >> business) need to make a profit to stay in business, they (at least to >> me) seem to do what they do, for the "luv of our little CoCo". >> >> Ed >> >> -- >> Coco mailing list >> Coco at maltedmedia.com >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco >> > > > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > From wdg3rd at comcast.net Mon Dec 15 12:39:17 2008 From: wdg3rd at comcast.net (wdg3rd at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 17:39:17 +0000 Subject: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... Message-ID: <121520081739.28205.49469645000A1D3300006E2D22135285730B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> From: Andrew Ayers > > Message: 1 > > Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 08:47:49 -0600 > > From: "Chester A Patterson" > > Subject: Re: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... > > To: "CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts" > > Message-ID: > > <0A9B63EA8B906947A409C6F0295CA07E012B8B09 at setec-server.SETEC.COM> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > Up until I joined this list I did not even understand what was meant by > > "flaming" or "flame war". Really. > > This list has taught me the meaning. > > I had no idea that lists and blogs and such brought out behavior which > > otherwise was only seen in late night drunken street brawls (seen enough > > of those) > > Confrontation and aggression rarely if ever will bring about a favorable > > result. > > /Chester > > Heh - this is nothing - back in the day (even now, in the right forums) > flamewars could erupt into something massive, whole lists were crumbled > and brought to their knees over some. > > This? This is just an overly warm area, comparatively... > > /you - get off my lawn... Yup. Chet obviously hasn't spent much time on political mailing lists. (Especially those infested with libertarians -- there is some substance to the statist claim that we eat our young) -- Ward Griffiths wdg3rd at comcast.net I thought about being diplomatic and polite. Honest, I really did. But while I was thinking about it, I accidentally bumped the button that puts my mouth on autopilot, because it said, "That's a load of crap, Captain, and you know it". Jim Butcher, _Small Favor_ From tjseagrove at writeme.com Mon Dec 15 12:43:18 2008 From: tjseagrove at writeme.com (Tom Seagrove) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 12:43:18 -0500 Subject: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... In-Reply-To: <121520081739.28205.49469645000A1D3300006E2D22135285730B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> References: <121520081739.28205.49469645000A1D3300006E2D22135285730B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> Message-ID: <004601c95edc$9d6ca950$d845fbf0$@com> Thread closed From bookworm at cavenet.com Mon Dec 15 14:27:14 2008 From: bookworm at cavenet.com (BookWorm) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 19:27:14 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Coco] Color computer these days... (double reply) References: <121420080031.14879.494453FC00019D0B00003A1F22007348300B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> Message-ID: > BASIC09 is a far cry from BASIC. >("That's moose-turd pie! -- but it's good though). I'm glad to hear my opinion of BASIC-09 isn't unique after all. I'm afraid we may have just started a flame war though. From cocomalt at 6809.org.uk Mon Dec 15 19:28:52 2008 From: cocomalt at 6809.org.uk (Ciaran Anscomb) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 00:28:52 +0000 Subject: [Coco] Color computer these days... (double reply) In-Reply-To: <20081213224845.GF30685@warlock.deepthought.com> References: <49413333.2020207@cox.net> <4943DAD0.6000007@gmail.com> <4943E6FE.1060606@cox.net> <20081213224845.GF30685@warlock.deepthought.com> Message-ID: <27411.1229387332@torch.6809.org.uk> > On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 09:46:54AM -0700, Tim Fadden wrote: > > Hey what about Solaris? the BEST os on the planet! Frank Pittel wrote: > For the most part I agree about Solaris. I do have to admit that > I'm a solaris admin and make a living with it. Well I also make a living out of it, but Solaris 10 has seriously decreased my love for it. ZFS is lovely in the userspace, but completely reverses the Solaris reputation for stability: *don't* run a zpool without >1 vdev. Even the latest (0508, I think) release will panic if a vdev goes away (eg brief glitch causing it to disappear from FC fabric). It also doesn't make a terribly great desktop, mainly due to XSun not seeming to support XVideo - and OpenGL acceleration not really seeming terribly accelerated. I have an XVR-300 on my workstation, and it still manages to suck, even though it's just a rebadged ATI card. Still, Sun *hardware* still seems fairly top (SPARC at least - ALOM/ELOM/whatever is pretty horrible to deal with) - I'm happy with my personal T1 running Debian, and if I ever had to upgrade (don't see a reason to yet), I'd seriously consider a T1000. ..ciaran -- Ciaran Anscomb, Perl/C Hacker From bookworm at cavenet.com Mon Dec 15 22:32:32 2008 From: bookworm at cavenet.com (BookWorm) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 03:32:32 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... References: <1229211969.5576.11.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <1229287193.3223.19.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <1229290949.3530.37.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20081214190631.03044690@cloud9tech.com> <1229307502.4768.24.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <5D4CF624-6B13-44AE-9941-3B9B6E25EE7C@tee-boy.com> Message-ID: Boisie, I agree completely, and I intend to keep using my 5 1/4" drives. I have had problems with bad disks, but I seem to be doing better than some people did in the 80's! I find it much more convinient to have both drives the same size for backups, etc. Mark, you have joysticks? Do you have one of those mouse/joystick combinations sold by Disto? What other hardware do you have, besides your own products, drives, etc.? I'm probably not the only one here who wishes you'd post a list. Everyone else, I've ordered stuff from these guys several times and never had any problems. My order was always delivered as soon as I could expect it if not sooner. If their prices seem high, try finding a new ram upgrade, ide or scsi controller...at *any* price! From operator at coco3.com Mon Dec 15 22:24:31 2008 From: operator at coco3.com (Roger Taylor) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 21:24:31 -0600 Subject: [Coco] wireless CoCo serial Message-ID: <20081216035220.7ED6A20A15@qs281.pair.com> I do believe that any PC USB Bluetooth dongle should have a serial driver in the software meaning that it should connect to one of those DB-9 Bluetooth serial adaptors (software-free type). This would cut the price in half to add a wireless connection between your CoCo and PC. There's a few Hong Kong sellers on ebay that I've picked up some very cheap USB devices from in the past including a $1.99 (Buy Now, not an auction), USB Bluetooth adaptor. It's the blue plastic transparent case version you've probably seen. A serial port driver was installed, can't remember if Vista did this automatically or not, but there was a COM port or two added to Windows. -- Roger Taylor http://www.wordofthedayonline.com From deemcr at robinson-west.com Tue Dec 16 00:27:31 2008 From: deemcr at robinson-west.com (Michael Robinson) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 21:27:31 -0800 Subject: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... In-Reply-To: References: <1229211969.5576.11.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <1229287193.3223.19.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <1229290949.3530.37.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20081214190631.03044690@cloud9tech.com> <1229307502.4768.24.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <5D4CF624-6B13-44AE-9941-3B9B6E25EE7C@tee-boy.com> Message-ID: <1229405251.5694.44.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> On Tue, 2008-12-16 at 03:32 +0000, BookWorm wrote: > Boisie, I agree completely, and I intend to keep using my 5 1/4" drives. I have > had problems with bad disks, but I seem to be doing better than some people did > in the 80's! I find it much more convinient to have both drives the same size > for backups, etc. > > Mark, you have joysticks? Do you have one of those mouse/joystick combinations > sold by Disto? What other hardware do you have, besides your own products, > drives, etc.? I'm probably not the only one here who wishes you'd post a list. > > Everyone else, I've ordered stuff from these guys several times and never had > any problems. My order was always delivered as soon as I could expect it if not > sooner. If their prices seem high, try finding a new ram upgrade, ide or scsi > controller...at *any* price! > > > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco I don't want to support 5 1/4" disks in this day and age and here is why: http://cgi.ebay.com/Olivetti-XM-4311-DSDD-360k-5-25-PC-Floppy-Disk-Drive_W0QQitemZ320285715890QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCC_Drives_Storage_Internal?_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116 And the shipping on that to Scappose, which isn't far by any means, is, drum roll, $14.49. At least someone is finally offering one for less than $150. Even so, this is approaching $50 shipped. The prices I see right now range from $29 to about $89, minus the shipping of course. I don't know about everyone else on here, but $13 for a 1.44 meg drive at your local electronics store is way less then $50. $50 is getting close to the price of a COCO 3, which can be had from cloud-9 for $60. Now then, 360k drives aren't the only choice. There are also, drum roll. 720k drives. Let's take a look at those. http://cgi.ebay.com/720K-Floppy-Drive-Sankyo-FDU380-3-5-Disk-Sharp-PC-4501_W0QQitemZ140106395766QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116 They support more rugged media and, they store more. This drive is in the $300+ range. I think most people without extra cash lying around will think twice about getting this drive and even if you don't, Cloud-9 doesn't bother to ask if you can support 720k media. 720k media is standard for the COCO 3 by the way. 5 1/4" media is shredder friendly. That's the only real positive of 5 1/4" media compared to the alternatives that exist today. The reason you have to back up your data, these disks are easily corrupted. Shelf life? Let's be honest, only some people are lucky enough to read disks that are 20 years old. A show of hands, how many people who have bought a new PC or Mac lately have noticed that it doesn't have a disk drive at all? These days if you want a disk drive, you generally go with a USB one ( especially if your computer is a laptop ). There is a reason why the CDROM took the place of the disk drive in the PC world along with USB memory sticks and flash cards, the reliability is so much better and by the time you factor in the extra capacity of the newer media, the higher cost is actually less. Let's face it, do you buy one floppy disk and expect that floppy to work? No, you buy at least 10 at a time and half of those disks could be bad. This expensive 720k floppy drive is the only one I found. In summary: 1) Floppy disks are unreliable. 2) Floppy disks are getting harder to acquire. 3) Floppy drives are getting expensive, especially low density ones. 4) CD-R, CD-RW, usb stick, flash memory is getting better and cheaper per meg. 5) Being comfortable with a dying technology that is getting expensive, is that the way to go? People say they are comfortable with floppy disks. Why? Aside from drivewire there are alternative possibilities. One possibility is to send a usb stick or flash card to cloud-9 when you buy software. I've had problems with software on disks because my disk drives are bad. I bought a drivewire rom pack, I don't want to turn around and buy used disk drives as well. I would appreciate dsk images of the software from cloud-9 on cdrom that I can load into drivewire, if I want to purchase any more software. ** Any low density disk drive that I buy is going to be used. ** From tonym at compusource.net Tue Dec 16 00:47:37 2008 From: tonym at compusource.net (tonym) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 05:47:37 GMT Subject: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... Message-ID: <200812160047668.SM01052@[208.76.35.239]> >-----Original Message----- >From: Michael Robinson deemcr at robinson-west.com >Sent 12/16/2008 12:27:31 AM >To: CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts coco at maltedmedia.com >Subject: Re: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... > > > >I don't want to support 5 1/4" disks in this day and age and here is >why: > >http://cgi.ebay.com/Olivetti-XM-4311-DSDD-360k-5-25-PC-Floppy- > >Disk->Drive_W0QQitemZ320285715890QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCC_Drives_Storage_Internal?_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116 >And the shipping on that to Scappose, which isn't far >by any means, is, drum roll, $14.49. > Just because you don't know how to search, or don't bother to take the time to LEARN, doesn't mean they don't exist. http://cgi.ebay.com/IBM-half-height-5-25-floppy-drive-360k_W0QQitemZ230313707702QQihZ013QQcategoryZ116268QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Mitsumi-D503V-360KB-5-25-Floppy-Disk-Drive_W0QQitemZ390015951685QQihZ026QQcategoryZ116268QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem THIS one is a 1.2, but can be jumpered to run at 300rpm, making it a DS/QD 5.25" 720KB FDD: http://cgi.ebay.com/Teac-5-25-Internal-Floppy-Drive-14733730-90-F2SSR80_W0QQitemZ250338757045QQihZ015QQcategoryZ116268QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem http://cgi.ebay.com/MATSUSHITA-5-25-LOW-Density-Disk-Drive-FMD00790B4_W0QQitemZ190270507195QQihZ009QQcategoryZ116268QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem http://cgi.ebay.com/Epson-SD-621L-360KB-5-25-HH-Floppy-Drive_W0QQitemZ170140024794QQihZ007QQcategoryZ116268QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem http://cgi.ebay.com/MITSUMI-D503-360KB-BLACK-INTERNAL-FLOPPY-DRIVE_W0QQitemZ360094158265QQihZ023QQcategoryZ116268QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-SHUGART-Floppy-Drive-SA455-3BBa-BLACK-360k_W0QQitemZ360094158381QQihZ023QQcategoryZ116268QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem Non-eBay: http://www.oddmix.com/comp/chd_drv_shugart_sa455.html Shugart, $30 shipped Need I keep going? From deemcr at robinson-west.com Tue Dec 16 01:44:56 2008 From: deemcr at robinson-west.com (Michael Robinson) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 22:44:56 -0800 Subject: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... In-Reply-To: <200812160047668.SM01052@[208.76.35.239]> References: <200812160047668.SM01052@[208.76.35.239]> Message-ID: <1229409896.5694.87.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> On Tue, 2008-12-16 at 05:47 +0000, tonym wrote: > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Michael Robinson deemcr at robinson-west.com > >Sent 12/16/2008 12:27:31 AM > >To: CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts coco at maltedmedia.com > >Subject: Re: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... > > > > > > > >I don't want to support 5 1/4" disks in this day and age and here is > >why: > > > >http://cgi.ebay.com/Olivetti-XM-4311-DSDD-360k-5-25-PC-Floppy- > > >Disk->Drive_W0QQitemZ320285715890QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCC_Drives_Storage_Internal?_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116 > >And the shipping on that to Scappose, which isn't far > >by any means, is, drum roll, $14.49. > > > > Just because you don't know how to search, or don't bother to take the time to LEARN, doesn't mean they don't exist. > http://cgi.ebay.com/IBM-half-height-5-25-floppy-drive-360k_W0QQitemZ230313707702QQihZ013QQcategoryZ116268QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > > http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Mitsumi-D503V-360KB-5-25-Floppy-Disk-Drive_W0QQitemZ390015951685QQihZ026QQcategoryZ116268QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem The two above could be junk. They are sold as-is, so it is not fair to use them as a counter argument. > THIS one is a 1.2, but can be jumpered to run at 300rpm, making it a DS/QD 5.25" 720KB FDD: > http://cgi.ebay.com/Teac-5-25-Internal-Floppy-Drive-14733730-90-F2SSR80_W0QQitemZ250338757045QQihZ015QQcategoryZ116268QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem For this last one, "I don't know what capacity it supports." Why bother looking at it any further? > http://cgi.ebay.com/MATSUSHITA-5-25-LOW-Density-Disk-Drive-FMD00790B4_W0QQitemZ190270507195QQihZ009QQcategoryZ116268QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem This last one could be junk. "It worked when we pulled it," but does it work now? How used is it? How was it taken care of? > http://cgi.ebay.com/Epson-SD-621L-360KB-5-25-HH-Floppy-Drive_W0QQitemZ170140024794QQihZ007QQcategoryZ116268QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem This last one could be junk. It isn't tested. How much use has it seen and for how much longer will it work? > http://cgi.ebay.com/MITSUMI-D503-360KB-BLACK-INTERNAL-FLOPPY-DRIVE_W0QQitemZ360094158265QQihZ023QQcategoryZ116268QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem This last one is sitting at $23.33. A 1.44 meg 3.5" realize is going to cost $19.99 or less from your local store. I am not interested in speding more than $20 on a floppy drive period. > http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-SHUGART-Floppy-Drive-SA455-3BBa-BLACK-360k_W0QQitemZ360094158381QQihZ023QQcategoryZ116268QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem More than I want to pay for a floppy drive again. This technology just isn't reliable enough to commit more than $20 to the drive itself. > Non-eBay: > http://www.oddmix.com/comp/chd_drv_shugart_sa455.html Shugart, $30 shipped $19.99 shipped would be okay, why spend $30 on a 1.2m drive? 5.25" media is very hard to come by. I only know of one company in California that I can get it from. Why go to the effort, disks are unreliable no matter how good your drive is compared to the alternatives. The only time I need a disk drive is to play Gauntlet II because it doesn't follow the rules. To save me the pain of dealing with disks, I can forego being able to play Gauntlet II on an actual COCO 3. > Need I keep going? No, you've missed the point. It's time to get away from floppy drive technology. Cloud-9 has really missed the point, or Drivewire would be distributed on a rom pack by default and the company would be working on a successor to the semi virtual diskette drive that will be compatible with games such as Diecom Products Gauntlet II and store 360k or more. The time has come to simulate disk drives with better technology and distribute dsk images on cdrom. Sooner or later, disk drive technology will go extinct. Why wait for that to happen? Of the 360k drives you list, how many of them are brand new? Need I mention that I need to buy new media if I decide to get a replacement floppy drive? No matter who I buy it from, the disk reliability issue is going to mean that some are bad and others will go bad quickly. Disks are not a good distribution means in this day and age of better alternatives, especially 5.25" disks. Optical drives are more popular than disk drives today and for very good reasons. My argument hasn't been shot down by these links to disk drives on and off E-Bay, it has been strengthened. Say you buy 50 disks for about $50. That means that if you pick a drive up for $30 you have sunk $80 into disk technology. For $110, you can get a virtual disk drive shipped to you that is more reliable than your disks and their drive. For a little more than that, you can probably build a better virtual disk drive. CD-R's are cheap where most people have PC's that they can burn them on. If you have an SVD or drivewire and a burner on your PC, you are pretty much set so long as people who are distributing software to you distribute it on CD. A spindle of 50 700 megabyte compact writable discs is what? It's less than what floppy disks will cost you for the comparable amount of storage. Anyone who wants something other than a floppy drive on their COCO knows exactly what I'm pointing out. They know that floppy technology is limiting and they know that it is eventually going to go away. Back in the day, floppy drives were cheap and about all that anyone could afford. Today, cdrom writers and CD-R media are what's cheap. Need I mention that CD-R's have a 30 year shelf life and cost about 30 cents a piece? Cloud-9 offers a CDROM kit, but I don't think it's a burner unfortunately. Floppy technology is crude compared to today's technology. It's time to let it die. > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco From deemcr at robinson-west.com Tue Dec 16 02:13:45 2008 From: deemcr at robinson-west.com (Michael Robinson) Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 23:13:45 -0800 Subject: [Coco] Update on the SVD... Message-ID: <1229411626.5694.91.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> http://www.thesvd.com/SVD/update.php Too bad he's out of production and not finished designing the next version yet. From jps.subscriptions at gmail.com Tue Dec 16 03:33:23 2008 From: jps.subscriptions at gmail.com (J.P. Samson) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 01:33:23 -0700 Subject: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... In-Reply-To: <1229409896.5694.87.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> References: <200812160047668.SM01052@[208.76.35.239]> <1229409896.5694.87.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> Message-ID: > Need I mention that I need to buy new media if I decide to get a > replacement floppy drive? No matter who I buy it from, the disk > reliability issue is going to mean that some are bad and others > will go bad quickly. Disks are not a good distribution means > in this day and age of better alternatives, especially 5.25" > disks. Optical drives are more popular than disk drives today > and for very good reasons. I've seen lots of people wind up with defective CD/DVD-R discs. Some of them don't work right out of the box. Other discs fail in a handful of years due to exposure to light and air. Heck, my Dad lost his scientific research--his life's work--due to hard drive failures and defective DVD-R backups (thus forcing him to retire early). > Back in the day, floppy drives were cheap and about all that anyone > could afford. Today, cdrom writers and CD-R media are what's cheap. CD-ROM drives are on their way out, just like floppy disk drives started being phased out 10 years ago. Why should software be distributed on this 1990's optical technology? I'd suggest you download your software over the Internet. That's exactly what Roger Taylor's CoCoNet is all about! Part of the charm of the CoCo is the antiquated peripherals that work alongside it. Save for one particular brand, my 25-year-old floppy disks all still work just fine. It is interesting to note that many of these disks carry unlimited, lifetime warranties against failure (not that you could go out and make a claim on them these days). I don't have any 25-year-old CD-R's to test to see if they work, but I doubt their longevity will be any superior or worse than floppy disks. You complain that you can't buy new CoCo-compatible drives and media these days for next to nothing. This is true--running into computer items from the 1980's that have never been opened is rare. If you do find some, a collector will snap these up for a premium price you aren't willing to pay. You do realize that the CoCo Cloud-9 is offering to sell you is likely in used (but good) condition, right? -- JP From tonym at compusource.net Tue Dec 16 03:43:40 2008 From: tonym at compusource.net (tonym) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 08:43:40 GMT Subject: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... Message-ID: <200812160343527.SM04672@[208.76.35.239]> >-----Original Message----- >From: Michael Robinson deemcr at robinson-west.com >Sent 12/16/2008 1:44:56 AM >To: CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts coco at maltedmedia.com >Subject: Re: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... > > >On Tue, 2008-12-16 at 05:47 +0000, tonym wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Robinson deemcr at robinson-west.com > Sent 12/16/2008 12:27:31 AM > To: CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts coco at maltedmedia.com > Subject: Re: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... > > > I don't want to support 5 1/4" disks in this day and age and here is > why: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/Olivetti-XM-4311-DSDD-360k-5-25-PC-Floppy- > Disk-Drive_W0QQitemZ320285715890QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCC_Drives_Storage_Internal?_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116 > And the shipping on that to Scappose, which isn't far > by any means, is, drum roll, $14.49. > > > Just because you don't know how to search, or don't bother to take the time to LEARN, doesn't mean they don't exist. > http://cgi.ebay.com/IBM-half-height-5-25-floppy-drive->360k_W0QQitemZ230313707702QQihZ013QQcategoryZ116268QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > > http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Mitsumi-D503V-360KB-5-25-Floppy- >Disk-Drive_W0QQitemZ390015951685QQihZ026QQcategoryZ116268QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > >The two above could be junk. They are sold as-is, so it is not fair to >use them as a counter argument. > Oh, OK, so you want a floppy for 5 bucks, AND you want a warranty. Get real already. > THIS one is a 1.2, but can be jumpered to run at 300rpm, making it a DS/QD 5.25" 720KB FDD: > http://cgi.ebay.com/Teac-5-25-Internal-Floppy-Drive- >14733730-90->F2SSR80_W0QQitemZ250338757045QQihZ015QQcategoryZ116268QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > >For this last one, "I don't know what capacity it supports." Why bother >looking at it any further? > Because I *TOLD* you what it was RIGHT ABOVE IT. SLow down, think, stop talking trash for a moment, and READ THE SENTENCE ABOVE THE LINK > http://cgi.ebay.com/MATSUSHITA-5-25-LOW-Density-Disk-Drive->FMD00790B4_W0QQitemZ190270507195QQihZ009QQcategoryZ116268QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > >This last one could be junk. "It worked when we pulled it," but does it >work now? How used is it? How was it taken care of? > Again, you want cheap, and you want guarantees? > http://cgi.ebay.com/Epson-SD-621L-360KB-5-25-HH-Floppy- >Drive_W0QQitemZ170140024794QQihZ007QQcategoryZ116268QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > >This last one could be junk. It isn't tested. How much use has it seen >and for how much longer will it work? > Ditto - come back to the real world. > http://cgi.ebay.com/MITSUMI-D503-360KB-BLACK-INTERNAL-FLOPPY- >DRIVE_W0QQitemZ360094158265QQihZ023QQcategoryZ116268QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > >This last one is sitting at $23.33. A 1.44 meg 3.5" realize is going >to cost $19.99 or less from your local store. I am not interested in >speding more than $20 on a floppy drive period. > OK, but, 1.44's don't work as 1.44's on coco's, so your mentioning it is kinda' moot > http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-SHUGART-Floppy-Drive-SA455-3BBa-BLACK- >360k_W0QQitemZ360094158381QQihZ023QQcategoryZ116268QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > >More than I want to pay for a floppy drive again. This technology just >isn't reliable enough to commit more than $20 to the drive itself. > > > > Non-eBay: > http://www.oddmix.com/comp/chd_drv_shugart_sa455.html Shugart, $30 shipped > >$19.99 shipped would be okay, why spend $30 on a 1.2m drive? Well, because some peope need to MAKE a couple bucks to stay in business. How about we contact your employer, and have them lower your salary a bit, since it's unfair for you to cost them so much. Yep - I thought so. >5.25" media is very hard to come by. I only know of one company in >California that I can get it from. Why go to the effort, disks are >unreliable no matter how good your drive is compared to the >alternatives. The only time I need a disk drive is to >play Gauntlet II because it doesn't follow the rules. >To save me the pain of dealing with disks, I can forego being able >to play Gauntlet II on an actual COCO 3. > No, it is NOT hard to get. I have over 1500pcs in my garage, ranging from 40pcs that cost me 5 bucks, to a 440pc lot that cost me $78 shipped, and then another 500 pcs that cost me around $100 shipped. Again, you just have to STOP TALKING TRASH long enough to do semi-intelligent search queries. > > > Need I keep going? > >No, you've missed the point. It's time to get away from floppy drive >technology. Cloud-9 has really missed the point, or Drivewire would >be distributed on a rom pack by default and the company would be working >on a successor to the semi virtual diskette drive that will be >compatible with games such as Diecom Products Gauntlet II and store 360k >or more. The time has come to simulate disk drives with better >technology and distribute dsk images on cdrom. Sooner or later, disk >drive technology will go extinct. Why wait for that to happen? Of the >360k drives you list, how many of them are brand new? > Fine - then shut the F up and create it - causing a huge stir here, and calling out Mark and Boisy for *NO* reason really isn't constructive, is note endearing you to *ANYONE*, and frankly, it's downright rude. >Need I mention that I need to buy new media if I decide to get a >replacement floppy drive? No matter who I buy it from, the disk >reliability issue is going to mean that some are bad and others >will go bad quickly. Disks are not a good distribution means >in this day and age of better alternatives, especially 5.25" >disks. Optical drives are more popular than disk drives today >and for very good reasons. My argument hasn't been shot down >by these links to disk drives on and off E-Bay, it has been >strengthened. > I think not - you bitched about expensive floppies, and I pointed you to $5 drives. Then your argument was "as-is" Man, seriously, whaddaya want for five stinking DOLLARS??? You want a lifetime service contract? WITH overnight shipping both ways included?? Be realistic! >Say you buy 50 disks for about $50. That means that if you pick a drive >up for $30 you have sunk $80 into disk technology. For $110, you can >get a virtual disk drive shipped to you that is more reliable than your >disks and their drive. For a little more than that, you can probably >build a better virtual disk drive. CD-R's are cheap where most people >have PC's that they can burn them on. If you have an SVD or drivewire >and a burner on your PC, you are pretty much set so long as people who >are distributing software to you distribute it on CD. A spindle of >50 700 megabyte compact writable discs is what? It's less than what >floppy disks will cost you for the comparable amount of storage. >Anyone who wants something other than a floppy drive on their COCO >knows exactly what I'm pointing out. They know that floppy technology >is limiting and they know that it is eventually going to go away. >Back in the day, floppy drives were cheap and about all that anyone >could afford. Today, cdrom writers and CD-R media are what's cheap. > Um, no, most places have moved on to USB sticks, or flash cards with build-in USB connectors, or DVD disks. I use very few CD's at work - bootable USB sticks (8, 16, 32, and 64GB) and DVD's Now, seriously, if I send you an FDD setup and about 100 disks, will you shut up? I'll send it *AT MY EXPENSE* just to rid the list of your nonsense... and maybe get you to leave Mark and Boisy alone... Tony From jps.subscriptions at gmail.com Tue Dec 16 03:43:49 2008 From: jps.subscriptions at gmail.com (J.P. Samson) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 01:43:49 -0700 Subject: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... In-Reply-To: <1229405251.5694.44.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> References: <1229211969.5576.11.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <1229287193.3223.19.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <1229290949.3530.37.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20081214190631.03044690@cloud9tech.com> <1229307502.4768.24.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <5D4CF624-6B13-44AE-9941-3B9B6E25EE7C@tee-boy.com> <1229405251.5694.44.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> Message-ID: <82AB5ACE-CCB9-4E5D-B7BA-037475E1662A@gmail.com> > I don't want to support 5 1/4" disks in this day and age and here is > why: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/Olivetti-XM-4311-DSDD-360k-5-25-PC-Floppy-Disk-Drive_W0QQitemZ320285715890QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCC_Drives_Storage_Internal?_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116 > And the shipping on that to Scappose, which isn't far > by any means, is, drum roll, $14.49. Then why don't you just use USB memory sticks instead? This is just one cent, comes with a one-year warranty and a money-back guarantee that it'll work: http://cgi.ebay.ca/3-floppy-disk-drive-to-USB-flash-drive-reader-3-5-1-2_W0QQitemZ220329389741QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item220329389741&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1215%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1307 Don't know what they odds are that it'll actually function with a CoCo, but might be fun to try. -- JP From wdg3rd at comcast.net Tue Dec 16 04:26:06 2008 From: wdg3rd at comcast.net (wdg3rd at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 09:26:06 +0000 Subject: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... Message-ID: <121620080926.6459.4947742E000B217B0000193B22064244130B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> From: "tonym" > Now, seriously, if I send you an FDD setup and about 100 disks, will you shut > up? > I'll send it *AT MY EXPENSE* just to rid the list of your nonsense... and maybe > get you to > leave Mark and Boisy alone... > > Tony Probably not. Mikey wants a lifetime warranty. For free. On hardware he's not willing to pay shipping charges for. -- Ward Griffiths wdg3rd at comcast.net I thought about being diplomatic and polite. Honest, I really did. But while I was thinking about it, I accidentally bumped the button that puts my mouth on autopilot, because it said, "That's a load of crap, Captain, and you know it". Jim Butcher, _Small Favor_ From mark at cloud9tech.com Tue Dec 16 04:52:28 2008 From: mark at cloud9tech.com (Mark Marlette) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 03:52:28 -0600 Subject: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... In-Reply-To: <1229405251.5694.44.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> References: <1229211969.5576.11.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <1229287193.3223.19.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <1229290949.3530.37.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20081214190631.03044690@cloud9tech.com> <1229307502.4768.24.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <5D4CF624-6B13-44AE-9941-3B9B6E25EE7C@tee-boy.com> <1229405251.5694.44.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20081216035127.02f629c8@cloud9tech.com> This sounds like a good candidate for Roger's new CoCoNet product???? Roger???? At 12/15/2008 11:27 PM, you wrote: >On Tue, 2008-12-16 at 03:32 +0000, BookWorm wrote: > > Boisie, I agree completely, and I intend to keep using my 5 1/4" > drives. I have > > had problems with bad disks, but I seem to be doing better than > some people did > > in the 80's! I find it much more convinient to have both drives > the same size > > for backups, etc. > > > > Mark, you have joysticks? Do you have one of those mouse/joystick > combinations > > sold by Disto? What other hardware do you have, besides your own products, > > drives, etc.? I'm probably not the only one here who wishes you'd > post a list. > > > > Everyone else, I've ordered stuff from these guys several times > and never had > > any problems. My order was always delivered as soon as I could > expect it if not > > sooner. If their prices seem high, try finding a new ram upgrade, > ide or scsi > > controller...at *any* price! > > > > > > > > -- > > Coco mailing list > > Coco at maltedmedia.com > > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > >I don't want to support 5 1/4" disks in this day and age and here is >why: > >http://cgi.ebay.com/Olivetti-XM-4311-DSDD-360k-5-25-PC-Floppy-Disk-Drive_W0QQitemZ320285715890QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCC_Drives_Storage_Internal?_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116 >And the shipping on that to Scappose, which isn't far >by any means, is, drum roll, $14.49. > >At least someone is finally offering one for less than $150. >Even so, this is approaching $50 shipped. The prices I see >right now range from $29 to about $89, minus the shipping >of course. > >I don't know about everyone else on here, but $13 for a 1.44 meg drive >at your local electronics store is way less then $50. $50 is getting >close to the price of a COCO 3, which can be had from cloud-9 for $60. > >Now then, 360k drives aren't the only choice. There are also, drum >roll. 720k drives. Let's take a look at those. > >http://cgi.ebay.com/720K-Floppy-Drive-Sankyo-FDU380-3-5-Disk-Sharp-PC-4501_W0QQitemZ140106395766QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116 >They support more rugged media and, they store more. This drive is in >the $300+ range. I think most people without extra cash lying around >will think twice about getting this drive and even if you don't, Cloud-9 >doesn't bother to ask if you can support 720k media. 720k media is >standard for the COCO 3 by the way. > >5 1/4" media is shredder friendly. That's the only real positive >of 5 1/4" media compared to the alternatives that exist today. >The reason you have to back up your data, these disks are easily >corrupted. Shelf life? Let's be honest, only some people are >lucky enough to read disks that are 20 years old. > >A show of hands, how many people who have bought a new PC or Mac >lately have noticed that it doesn't have a disk drive at all? >These days if you want a disk drive, you generally go with a >USB one ( especially if your computer is a laptop ). > >There is a reason why the CDROM took the place of the disk drive >in the PC world along with USB memory sticks and flash cards, the >reliability is so much better and by the time you factor in the >extra capacity of the newer media, the higher cost is actually >less. Let's face it, do you buy one floppy disk and expect that >floppy to work? No, you buy at least 10 at a time and half of >those disks could be bad. > >This expensive 720k floppy drive is the only one I found. > >In summary: > >1) Floppy disks are unreliable. >2) Floppy disks are getting harder to acquire. >3) Floppy drives are getting expensive, especially low density ones. >4) CD-R, CD-RW, usb stick, flash memory is getting better and cheaper > per meg. >5) Being comfortable with a dying technology that is getting expensive, > is that the way to go? > >People say they are comfortable with floppy disks. Why? Aside from >drivewire there are alternative possibilities. One possibility is to >send a usb stick or flash card to cloud-9 when you buy software. > >I've had problems with software on disks because my disk drives are >bad. I bought a drivewire rom pack, I don't want to turn around and >buy used disk drives as well. I would appreciate dsk images of the >software from cloud-9 on cdrom that I can load into drivewire, if I >want to purchase any more software. > >** Any low density disk drive that I buy is going to be used. ** > > > > >-- >Coco mailing list >Coco at maltedmedia.com >http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.18/1850 - Release Date: >12/15/2008 5:04 PM From brucewcalkins at charter.net Tue Dec 16 06:38:58 2008 From: brucewcalkins at charter.net (Bruce W. Calkins) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 06:38:58 -0500 Subject: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... References: <1229211969.5576.11.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com><1229287193.3223.19.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com><1229290949.3530.37.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com><6.2.5.6.2.20081214190631.03044690@cloud9tech.com><1229307502.4768.24.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com><5D4CF624-6B13-44AE-9941-3B9B6E25EE7C@tee-boy.com> <1229405251.5694.44.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> Message-ID: <0109559BC67E432795FC2480AF9841F2@speedy> Considering that my first 360k floppy drive for my CoCo was $399.00 plus shipping, and that that one has accrued storage for a decade or more, that is a very good price. Since approximately 99.99% of original CoCo disk software is on 160k or 360k media, I'll support 5.25 drives with my CoCos for as long as I run them. Bruce W. > I don't want to support 5 1/4" disks in this day and age and here is > why: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/Olivetti-XM-4311-DSDD-360k-5-25-PC-Floppy-Disk-Drive_W0QQitemZ320285715890QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCC_Drives_Storage_Internal?_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116 > And the shipping on that to Scappose, which isn't far > by any means, is, drum roll, $14.49. > > At least someone is finally offering one for less than $150. > Even so, this is approaching $50 shipped. The prices I see > right now range from $29 to about $89, minus the shipping > of course. > From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Dec 16 07:29:17 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 07:29:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... In-Reply-To: <1229405251.5694.44.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> References: <1229211969.5576.11.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <1229287193.3223.19.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <1229290949.3530.37.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20081214190631.03044690@cloud9tech.com> <1229307502.4768.24.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <5D4CF624-6B13-44AE-9941-3B9B6E25EE7C@tee-boy.com> <1229405251.5694.44.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Dec 2008, Michael Robinson wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/Olivetti-XM-4311-DSDD-360k-5-25-PC-Floppy-Disk-Drive_W0QQitemZ320285715890QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCC_Drives_Storage_Internal?_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116 > And the shipping on that to Scappose, which isn't far > by any means, is, drum roll, $14.49. > > At least someone is finally offering one for less than $150. > Even so, this is approaching $50 shipped. The prices I see > right now range from $29 to about $89, minus the shipping > of course. > > I don't know about everyone else on here, but $13 for a 1.44 meg drive > at your local electronics store is way less then $50. $50 is getting > close to the price of a COCO 3, which can be had from cloud-9 for $60. > > Now then, 360k drives aren't the only choice. There are also, drum > roll. 720k drives. Let's take a look at those. > > http://cgi.ebay.com/720K-Floppy-Drive-Sankyo-FDU380-3-5-Disk-Sharp-PC-4501_W0QQitemZ140106395766QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116 > They support more rugged media and, they store more. This drive is in > the $300+ range. I think most people without extra cash lying around > will think twice about getting this drive and even if you don't, Even in the electronic parts vacuum that I live in, there are at least four establishments that accept, scrap or resell older equipment. One of them has bins full of both types of diskette drives for $1 each. Do you have any local high schools or colleges that periodically scrap older systems? That's a good way to get freebies. -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Dec 16 07:34:18 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 07:34:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Coco] Update on the SVD... In-Reply-To: <1229411626.5694.91.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> References: <1229411626.5694.91.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 15 Dec 2008, Michael Robinson wrote: > http://www.thesvd.com/SVD/update.php > > Too bad he's out of production and not finished designing the next > version yet. > You appear to have a serious aversion to research. Les Bird has been manufacturing the SVD for quite some time and offers them on eBay as assembled and tested boards. You would have to put it in some sort of project box or enclosure. I'm a very happy customer and use mine regularly with TI-99, Coco and Apple II systems. Just be warned that it is noticably slower than a real floppy drive and that only SSDD diskettes are supported (only 256K of memory available). -- From tonym at compusource.net Tue Dec 16 08:01:24 2008 From: tonym at compusource.net (tonym) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 13:01:24 GMT Subject: [Coco] Update on the SVD... Message-ID: <200812160801777.SM04672@[208.76.35.239]> >-----Original Message----- >From: Steven Hirsch snhirsch at gmail.com >Sent 12/16/2008 7:34:18 AM >To: CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts coco at maltedmedia.com >Subject: Re: [Coco] Update on the SVD... > >On Mon, 15 Dec 2008, Michael Robinson wrote: > > http://www.thesvd.com/SVD/update.php > > Too bad he's out of production and not finished designing the next > version yet. > > >You appear to have a serious aversion to research. > Heh - Steven, that's probably the understatement of the year! Tony From jdaggett at gate.net Tue Dec 16 08:48:03 2008 From: jdaggett at gate.net (jdaggett at gate.net) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 08:48:03 -0500 Subject: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... In-Reply-To: <1229405251.5694.44.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> References: <1229211969.5576.11.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com>, , <1229405251.5694.44.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> Message-ID: <49476B43.7315.C1E4B@jdaggett.gate.net> On 15 Dec 2008 at 21:27, Michael Robinson wrote: > I've had problems with software on disks because my disk drives are > bad. I bought a drivewire rom pack, I don't want to turn around and > buy used disk drives as well. I would appreciate dsk images of the > software from cloud-9 on cdrom that I can load into drivewire, if I > want to purchase any more software. A solution to flopy disk distribution would be electronic distribution. In that case with Drivewire you then off load to your Coco with ease. Instead of bashing old technology, try using or recommending engineering practices that will solve an issue not further complicate it. james From boisy at tee-boy.com Tue Dec 16 08:57:23 2008 From: boisy at tee-boy.com (Boisy Pitre) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 07:57:23 -0600 Subject: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... In-Reply-To: <49476B43.7315.C1E4B@jdaggett.gate.net> References: <1229211969.5576.11.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com>, , <1229405251.5694.44.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <49476B43.7315.C1E4B@jdaggett.gate.net> Message-ID: <18D07B00-BC47-41AD-8344-B51D9A4DCD93@tee-boy.com> james, For some software, electronic distribution would work, but for others, it wouldn't. Utility software that Cloud-9 sells, such as DriveWire, HDB-DOS, NitrOS-9 System Disks, etc. are by necessity going to need a floppy drive due to the nature of the software, so it only makes sense to distribute them on floppy. Games and other software would certainly fit the bill for electronic distribution. I think Michael's idealistic approach to software distribution isn't taking into account the *type* of software that we sell at Cloud-9. A lot of it is system software which, by necessity, requires legacy hardware such as a floppy drive. On another note, I want to publicly apologize for riding you hard in our last interchange on this list. It was unwarranted, and I'm glad to see you are back. Boisy On Dec 16, 2008, at 7:48 AM, jdaggett at gate.net wrote: > On 15 Dec 2008 at 21:27, Michael Robinson wrote: > >> I've had problems with software on disks because my disk drives are >> bad. I bought a drivewire rom pack, I don't want to turn around and >> buy used disk drives as well. I would appreciate dsk images of the >> software from cloud-9 on cdrom that I can load into drivewire, if I >> want to purchase any more software. > > A solution to flopy disk distribution would be electronic > distribution. In that > case with Drivewire you then off load to your Coco with ease. > Instead of > bashing old technology, try using or recommending engineering > practices > that will solve an issue not further complicate it. > > > james > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco Regards, Boisy G. Pitre -- Tee-Boy Mobile: 337.781.3570 Email: boisy at tee-boy.com Web: http://www.tee-boy.com From vchester at setec-cr.com Tue Dec 16 09:19:31 2008 From: vchester at setec-cr.com (Chester Patterson) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 08:19:31 -0600 Subject: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... In-Reply-To: <9efa17da0812150801m2818f420vda0653cfba251072@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <499E3B64CC6F4E9DA6B691745D2CA712@chester> Nope, I unfortunately have no time to pursue such. Living here is wonderful but one has to work one's tail off what with the salaries... This is the only list I have ever joined, except recently for a couple of ham radio yahoo groups, which are suprisingly pretty tame. I do love underground comics though, the print kind. -----Original Message----- From: Sean [mailto:badfrog at gmail.com] Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 10:02 AM To: CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts Subject: Re: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... Obviously you've never seen Penny Arcades theory of the Internet comic. (some not safe for work language) http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/3/19/ On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 8:47 AM, Chester A Patterson wrote: > Up until I joined this list I did not even understand what was meant by > "flaming" or "flame war". Really. > This list has taught me the meaning. > I had no idea that lists and blogs and such brought out behavior which > otherwise was only seen in late night drunken street brawls (seen enough > of those) > Confrontation and aggression rarely if ever will bring about a favorable > result. > /Chester > -Costa Rica > > -----Original Message----- > From: Torsten Dittel [mailto:Torsten at Dittel.info] > Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 5:07 AM > To: coco at maltedmedia.com > Subject: Re: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... > > Yaaaaaaaaaaawn... what a boring flame war. Please calm down everyone... > :-) > Torsten > > > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > From vchester at setec-cr.com Tue Dec 16 09:28:58 2008 From: vchester at setec-cr.com (Chester Patterson) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 08:28:58 -0600 Subject: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... In-Reply-To: <121520081739.28205.49469645000A1D3300006E2D22135285730B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> Message-ID: Fortunately I am able to partake of political, social theory and sundry heavy topic discussions at the neighborhood watering hole. A wonderful place with sawdust on the floor and where there's a place just outside the door to tie up your steed while inside we partake. When I first moved here I went to buy some brewskies and what a surprise to find one of the horsemen had brought his mount in to the establishment and was drinking beer out of a bowl at the bar like the rest of us. Then I knew that "this is the place for me!" Wonderful discussions evolve, many to the "take it out to the street and duke it out" stage. But no Coco talk, sadly. -----Original Message----- From: wdg3rd at comcast.net [mailto:wdg3rd at comcast.net] Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 11:39 AM To: CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts Subject: Re: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... From: Andrew Ayers > > Message: 1 > > Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 08:47:49 -0600 > > From: "Chester A Patterson" > > Subject: Re: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... > > To: "CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts" > > Message-ID: > > <0A9B63EA8B906947A409C6F0295CA07E012B8B09 at setec-server.SETEC.COM> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > Up until I joined this list I did not even understand what was meant by > > "flaming" or "flame war". Really. > > This list has taught me the meaning. > > I had no idea that lists and blogs and such brought out behavior which > > otherwise was only seen in late night drunken street brawls (seen enough > > of those) > > Confrontation and aggression rarely if ever will bring about a favorable > > result. > > /Chester > > Heh - this is nothing - back in the day (even now, in the right forums) > flamewars could erupt into something massive, whole lists were crumbled > and brought to their knees over some. > > This? This is just an overly warm area, comparatively... > > /you - get off my lawn... Yup. Chet obviously hasn't spent much time on political mailing lists. (Especially those infested with libertarians -- there is some substance to the statist claim that we eat our young) -- Ward Griffiths wdg3rd at comcast.net I thought about being diplomatic and polite. Honest, I really did. But while I was thinking about it, I accidentally bumped the button that puts my mouth on autopilot, because it said, "That's a load of crap, Captain, and you know it". Jim Butcher, _Small Favor_ From vchester at setec-cr.com Tue Dec 16 09:30:32 2008 From: vchester at setec-cr.com (Chester Patterson) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 08:30:32 -0600 Subject: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <157CE0DB8072448286E18A2C7AE0BAB8@chester> Hear! Hear! I need a 1MB (or 2MB) upgrade! /Chester -Costa Rica -----Original Message----- From: BookWorm [mailto:bookworm at cavenet.com] Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 9:33 PM To: coco at maltedmedia.com Subject: Re: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... Boisie, I agree completely, and I intend to keep using my 5 1/4" drives. I have had problems with bad disks, but I seem to be doing better than some people did in the 80's! I find it much more convinient to have both drives the same size for backups, etc. Mark, you have joysticks? Do you have one of those mouse/joystick combinations sold by Disto? What other hardware do you have, besides your own products, drives, etc.? I'm probably not the only one here who wishes you'd post a list. Everyone else, I've ordered stuff from these guys several times and never had any problems. My order was always delivered as soon as I could expect it if not sooner. If their prices seem high, try finding a new ram upgrade, ide or scsi controller...at *any* price! From vchester at setec-cr.com Tue Dec 16 09:34:43 2008 From: vchester at setec-cr.com (Chester Patterson) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 08:34:43 -0600 Subject: [Coco] Old Floppy drives (was torn on getting a coco...) In-Reply-To: <1229405251.5694.44.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> Message-ID: I have been able to get all the floppy drives I want, at reasonable prices, by buying old computers that have them. Remove the drives and scavenge or discard the rest. Gotta pay the S/H, true (all the way to Costa Rica no less!), and gotta often figure out the oddball pinouts, true, but still a better deal than buying the drives alone. /Chester -Costa Rica From exwn8jef at gmail.com Tue Dec 16 09:54:26 2008 From: exwn8jef at gmail.com (N8WQ) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 09:54:26 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Thanks for being here! In-Reply-To: <121620080926.6459.4947742E000B217B0000193B22064244130B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> References: <121620080926.6459.4947742E000B217B0000193B22064244130B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4947C122.803@gmail.com> Good Morning Gang, I've been away from the CoCo world for a long time. I still have all my computers and software in storage. But I decided to subscribe and see what is going on. Since being back on the list I've noticed some familiar names. If my memory is correct I have used software written by many of you and I just want to say thanks! I hope everyone is having a good day and long live the CoCo. Alan Jones -- N8WQ - Canal Winchester, Ohio http://exwn8jef.googlepages.com/home http://n8wq.blogspot.com From diegoba at adinet.com.uy Tue Dec 16 10:39:22 2008 From: diegoba at adinet.com.uy (Diego Barizo) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 13:39:22 -0200 Subject: [Coco] Thanks for being here! In-Reply-To: <4947C122.803@gmail.com> References: <121620080926.6459.4947742E000B217B0000193B22064244130B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> <4947C122.803@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4947CBAA.3010105@adinet.com.uy> N8WQ wrote: > Good Morning Gang, > I've been away from the CoCo world for a long time. I still have all > my computers and software in storage. But I decided to subscribe and > see what is going on. Since being back on the list I've noticed some > familiar names. If my memory is correct I have used software written > by many of you and I just want to say thanks! I hope everyone is > having a good day and long live the CoCo. > > Alan Jones > Welcome back Alan! I hope you have a great time around. The people here is - mostly ;-) - great and helpful. Let us know when you get your CoCo back in the desk, or at least an emulator up and running. Diego From diegoba at adinet.com.uy Tue Dec 16 10:45:55 2008 From: diegoba at adinet.com.uy (Diego Barizo) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 13:45:55 -0200 Subject: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... In-Reply-To: References: <1229211969.5576.11.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <1229287193.3223.19.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <1229290949.3530.37.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <6.2.5.6.2.20081214190631.03044690@cloud9tech.com> <1229307502.4768.24.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <5D4CF624-6B13-44AE-9941-3B9B6E25EE7C@tee-boy.com> Message-ID: <4947CD33.8060609@adinet.com.uy> In the 2007 CoCofest there were dozens of very nice joysticks going out in the auction for as little as $1. They might still have some around... Diego BookWorm wrote: > Boisie, I agree completely, and I intend to keep using my 5 1/4" drives. I have > had problems with bad disks, but I seem to be doing better than some people did > in the 80's! I find it much more convinient to have both drives the same size > for backups, etc. > > Mark, you have joysticks? Do you have one of those mouse/joystick combinations > sold by Disto? What other hardware do you have, besides your own products, > drives, etc.? I'm probably not the only one here who wishes you'd post a list. > > Everyone else, I've ordered stuff from these guys several times and never had > any problems. My order was always delivered as soon as I could expect it if not > sooner. If their prices seem high, try finding a new ram upgrade, ide or scsi > controller...at *any* price! > > > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > > From jdaggett at gate.net Tue Dec 16 11:11:39 2008 From: jdaggett at gate.net (jdaggett at gate.net) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 11:11:39 -0500 Subject: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... In-Reply-To: <18D07B00-BC47-41AD-8344-B51D9A4DCD93@tee-boy.com> References: <1229211969.5576.11.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com>, <49476B43.7315.C1E4B@jdaggett.gate.net>, <18D07B00-BC47-41AD-8344-B51D9A4DCD93@tee-boy.com> Message-ID: <49478CEB.19680.A60CC@jdaggett.gate.net> On 16 Dec 2008 at 7:57, Boisy Pitre wrote: > james, > > For some software, electronic distribution would work, but for others, > it wouldn't. Utility software that Cloud-9 sells, such as DriveWire, > HDB-DOS, NitrOS-9 System Disks, etc. are by necessity going to need a > floppy drive due to the nature of the software, so it only makes > sense to distribute them on floppy. > Maybe not. With electronic distribution even HBDOS could be burnt to a floppy disk by the end user unless there are special tracks that are used to prevent disk copying. Still my point is instead of bashing technology, try and suggest means to solve issues instead of criticism. There are always solutions. Some better than others. > Games and other software would certainly fit the bill for electronic > distribution. I think Michael's idealistic approach to software > distribution isn't taking into account the *type* of software that we > sell at Cloud-9. A lot of it is system software which, by necessity, > requires legacy hardware such as a floppy drive. > > On another note, I want to publicly apologize for riding you hard in > our last interchange on this list. It was unwarranted, and I'm glad > to see you are back. > no problem. I tend not to hold grudges. Not good for the blood presure or the life in general. Still plugging away on too many fronts and not making much headway. I think I need to put a few projects on the back burner and reprioritize some. james > Boisy > > On Dec 16, 2008, at 7:48 AM, jdaggett at gate.net wrote: > > > On 15 Dec 2008 at 21:27, Michael Robinson wrote: > > > >> I've had problems with software on disks because my disk drives are > >> bad. I bought a drivewire rom pack, I don't want to turn around > >> and buy used disk drives as well. I would appreciate dsk images of > >> the software from cloud-9 on cdrom that I can load into drivewire, > >> if I want to purchase any more software. > > > > A solution to flopy disk distribution would be electronic > > distribution. In that > > case with Drivewire you then off load to your Coco with ease. > > Instead of bashing old technology, try using or recommending > > engineering practices that will solve an issue not further > > complicate it. > > > > > > james > > > > -- > > Coco mailing list > > Coco at maltedmedia.com > > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > > Regards, > Boisy G. Pitre > -- > Tee-Boy > Mobile: 337.781.3570 > Email: boisy at tee-boy.com > Web: http://www.tee-boy.com > > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco From da3m0n_slay3r at yahoo.com Tue Dec 16 12:11:52 2008 From: da3m0n_slay3r at yahoo.com (Bill Barnes) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 09:11:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... In-Reply-To: <1229409896.5694.87.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> Message-ID: <260449.67810.qm@web31101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 12/16/08, Michael Robinson wrote: > From: Michael Robinson > Subject: Re: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... > To: "CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts" > Date: Tuesday, December 16, 2008, 12:44 AM > On Tue, 2008-12-16 at 05:47 +0000, tonym wrote: > > 50 700 megabyte compact writable discs is what? It's > less than what > floppy disks will cost you for the comparable amount of > storage. > Anyone who wants something other than a floppy drive on > their COCO > knows exactly what I'm pointing out. They know that > floppy technology > is limiting and they know that it is eventually going to go > away. I can understand your point. We all can see, that it (floppies) will eventually go away completely, but until such a time, and the demand for other media delivery is made known in such a volume to justify the costs involved, 5.25" just won't go away, and most of these alternate media sources either need firmware updates for a CONTROLER CARTRIDGE and media to supply drivers for it, such as would be needed for OS-9. Can't use a CD-ROM or DVD-ROM for that matter, without drivers. Remember when CD tech was taking off, in the days of win9x and DOS, the only way to use a CD-ROM was to install the drivers and MSCDEX. (this was before windoze included drivers for them.) I really do understand your point Michael, but until a new standard is accepted by all and implemented in such a way that installing and using is fairly easy, 5.25" floppy will remain the [defacto] standard. From coconut at pritchard.ca Tue Dec 16 15:10:02 2008 From: coconut at pritchard.ca (Ryan Pritchard) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 14:10:02 -0600 Subject: [Coco] new products - pre-announcement In-Reply-To: <1220151413.6006.38.camel@dev> References: <1220151413.6006.38.camel@dev> Message-ID: Ummm, seems like retroengineering.com has vapourized, or been hijacked. Anyone know what is happening with Chuck's site, and projects? Regards, Ryan Pritchard Fun Extends All Basic Life Expectancies On 30-Aug-08, at 9:56 PM, Chuck Youse wrote: > Well folks, I've been busy doing rather than talking. Next week > I'll be > putting up a web site at http://www.retroengineering.com where I will > display my newest creations, complete with schematics, layouts, theory > of operation, data sheets for ICs used, software drivers, etc. They > will be offered for sale (with warranties and support) for those who > wish to buy them, but everyone will be welcome to build their own from > the information on the site -- I will even give assistance as my > schedule allows -- provided that you do not engage in profit-making > from > it. My intent is really to have some fun, provide a means for those > without the requisite time, skills or equipment to get their hands on > some of these things easily, and maybe make a few bucks to offset the > investment of time and development costs. > > Four main I/O boards for the Coco are already on their way to the fab > house and will be back by the end of September: > > 1. The COCO HDISK - nothing exciting, a simple hard disk > controller. I > will sell these as bundled systems for NitrOS-9 complete with hard > drive > in an external case, pre-installed with NitrOS-9. ROM on board boots > NitrOS-9 from hard disk (no floppy required -- you can even leave the > floppy drivers out of your cobbled NitrOS-9 build). Expected > availability: Oct 1 2008. > > 2. The COCO FDC - this is my (revised) high-density no-halt floppy > controller, for use with NitrOS-9. Boots NitrOS-9 from 3.5" > high-density 1.44M floppy -- not for use with RS-DOS. Comes as a > package with controller and 3.5" drive in external case. Expected > availability: Oct 15 2008. (Note: I don't expect much interest in > this, > so the production run is small. I.e., a limited quantity will be > available.) > > 3. The COCO SSP - this is a board with a 16C552 on it, essentially, > two > buffered (FIFO) UARTs and a PC-style parallel port for driving a > printer > or external EEPROM programmer, etc. With NitrOS-9 drivers and example > machine code for use with RS-DOS. Expected availability: Oct 15 2008. > (I will be employing this card to put up a two-user BBS on my "main" > Coco. Internet-accessible through Cisco async magic.) > > and last, but not least, > > 4. The COCO NET - 10baseT ethernet for your CoCo. Yes, it's finally > here. With sample software for NitrOS-9 and Microsoft BASIC, in the > form of a simple web server and a TFTP client for transferring files > over IP. If time allows I may write a full-blown stack for > NitrOS-9; no > promises. Expected availability: sometime in November. (This was the > most time-consuming, not because the design was terribly difficult -- > though it did have some gotchas -- but mostly because it had to be > hand-routed to deal with trace matching and differential impedance > considerations. It may not work out on the first spin, hence the > vague > date.) > > Stay tuned for more details -- I'll let you know when more information > is available on retroengineering.com. (I'm just waiting for the > significant-other to work her CSS magic. I don't do web. At least, > not > prettily.) Until then, feel free to drop me a line if something > piques > your interest, or if you have any comments. > > Go go gadget Coco, > C. > > PS By the way, all of these, except for the high-density floppy > controller, will work on Coco 1/2 as well. (The floppy controller > will > work, but only in double-density mode.) Most of these cards are > infinitely more useful with a multi-pak, of course! And I have a few > more things in the pipeline, but this is the initial line-up. > > > > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco From mechacoco at gmail.com Tue Dec 16 15:41:52 2008 From: mechacoco at gmail.com (Darren A) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 13:41:52 -0700 Subject: [Coco] new products - pre-announcement In-Reply-To: References: <1220151413.6006.38.camel@dev> Message-ID: <5d802cd0812161241r312ad298gd3d878581483b34e@mail.gmail.com> On 12/16/08, Ryan Pritchard wrote: > Ummm, seems like retroengineering.com has vapourized, or been > hijacked. Anyone know what is happening with Chuck's site, and > projects? > > Regards, > > Ryan Pritchard ---- He indicated that he was abandoning the CoCo following another heated discussion that took place on this list back in October. Darren From coconut at pritchard.ca Tue Dec 16 16:26:29 2008 From: coconut at pritchard.ca (Ryan Pritchard) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 15:26:29 -0600 Subject: [Coco] new products - pre-announcement In-Reply-To: <5d802cd0812161241r312ad298gd3d878581483b34e@mail.gmail.com> References: <1220151413.6006.38.camel@dev> <5d802cd0812161241r312ad298gd3d878581483b34e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1806abd60812161326n2a311b03jd72980693a1b44be@mail.gmail.com> Must have missed that with all the talk regarding some OS not related to the CoCo. Thanks for the information, I guess I fall back to looking at Cloud-9 hardware, or e-bay. On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 2:41 PM, Darren A wrote: > On 12/16/08, Ryan Pritchard wrote: > > Ummm, seems like retroengineering.com has vapourized, or been > > hijacked. Anyone know what is happening with Chuck's site, and > > projects? > > > > Regards, > > > > Ryan Pritchard > > ---- > > He indicated that he was abandoning the CoCo following another heated > discussion that took place on this list back in October. > > Darren > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > -- Regards, Ryan Pritchard Fun Extends All Basic Life Expectancies From deemcr at robinson-west.com Tue Dec 16 17:39:01 2008 From: deemcr at robinson-west.com (Michael Robinson) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 14:39:01 -0800 Subject: [Coco] I don't like floppy technology... In-Reply-To: <200812160343527.SM04672@[208.76.35.239]> References: <200812160343527.SM04672@[208.76.35.239]> Message-ID: <1229467142.9216.12.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> > Now, seriously, if I send you an FDD setup and about 100 disks, will you shut up? > I'll send it *AT MY EXPENSE* just to rid the list of your nonsense... and maybe get you to > leave Mark and Boisy alone... > > Tony You lost the argument so you have to insist that you won because me worrying about a floppy drive not working for very long time isn't good enough? DVD writers are still optical drives. The SVD II when it comes out, if it hasn't already, will support DSDD disk format. At that point, nitros9 and hdb-dos should work from dsk images that are loaded into it. Yes I can go dumpster diving or I can buy an as-is floppy drive and hope it works, but why? Using obscenity on me because I am not satisfied with disk technology in general doesn't make sense either. Arguing that I need to do more research is another reason to avoid floppy drive technology. I'd rather spend that effort on figuring out how I can get an SVD II. In the meantime, I'll convert coco disks to dsk images on my IBM which has a 1.2 m drive. From deemcr at robinson-west.com Tue Dec 16 18:04:07 2008 From: deemcr at robinson-west.com (Michael Robinson) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 15:04:07 -0800 Subject: [Coco] 512k test program via drivewire... Message-ID: <1229468647.9716.2.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> Well, I created a DSK image of the cloud-9 512k test program on my 486 and I have successfully loaded it via drivewire on my coco 3. Granted, hdb-dos, nitros-9, Gauntlet II, and perhaps other software won't work this way, but it's something. From rbihler at msn.com Tue Dec 16 18:10:43 2008 From: rbihler at msn.com (RON BIHLER) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 16:10:43 -0700 Subject: [Coco] new products - pre-announcement In-Reply-To: <5d802cd0812161241r312ad298gd3d878581483b34e@mail.gmail.com> References: <1220151413.6006.38.camel@dev> <5d802cd0812161241r312ad298gd3d878581483b34e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: His Coco stuff was sold on E-Bay and he is going to work on other projects. The IDE Hd controller works great, very sorry to see Chuck go. Dual RS232 and the network adapters, both had been close to completion are now gone. Ron > Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 13:41:52 -0700> From: mechacoco at gmail.com> To: coco at maltedmedia.com> Subject: Re: [Coco] new products - pre-announcement> > On 12/16/08, Ryan Pritchard wrote:> > Ummm, seems like retroengineering.com has vapourized, or been> > hijacked. Anyone know what is happening with Chuck's site, and> > projects?> >> > Regards,> >> > Ryan Pritchard> > ----> > He indicated that he was abandoning the CoCo following another heated> discussion that took place on this list back in October.> > Darren> > --> Coco mailing list> Coco at maltedmedia.com> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco From mechacoco at gmail.com Tue Dec 16 19:06:11 2008 From: mechacoco at gmail.com (Darren A) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 17:06:11 -0700 Subject: [Coco] new products - pre-announcement In-Reply-To: References: <1220151413.6006.38.camel@dev> <5d802cd0812161241r312ad298gd3d878581483b34e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5d802cd0812161606v51e483e4u203cb0078ac44873@mail.gmail.com> On 12/16/08, RON BIHLER wrote: > > His Coco stuff was sold on E-Bay and he is going to work on other projects. > The IDE Hd controller works great, very sorry to see Chuck go. Dual RS232 > and the network adapters, both had been close to completion are now gone. > > Ron The floppy controller was also near completion. I was working on a version of Disk Basic that ran on his CoCo FDC so he sent me the prototype. I now have probably the only CoCo Disk Basic system that uses an Intel 82077AA based controller. Darren From johnguin at hotmail.com Tue Dec 16 19:53:47 2008 From: johnguin at hotmail.com (John) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 16:53:47 -0800 Subject: [Coco] Now THIS would have been a great class to take back in college Message-ID: Apropos of nothing, and only tangentially related to the coco: http://fab.cba.mit.edu/classes/MIT/863.08/ Have fun, John From georgeramsower at gmail.com Tue Dec 16 20:48:15 2008 From: georgeramsower at gmail.com (George Ramsower) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 19:48:15 -0600 Subject: [Coco] Now THIS would have been a great class to take back incollege References: Message-ID: <005601c95fe9$88125010$6401a8c0@OLDGEORGE> ----- Original Message ----- From: "John" > Apropos of nothing, and only tangentially related to the coco: > http://fab.cba.mit.edu/classes/MIT/863.08/ > > > > Have fun, > > John Less so than you may think... http://Coco.TheTinBox.com George From fwp at deepthought.com Tue Dec 16 21:33:25 2008 From: fwp at deepthought.com (Frank Pittel) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 20:33:25 -0600 Subject: [Coco] I don't like floppy technology... In-Reply-To: <1229467142.9216.12.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> References: <200812160343527.SM04672@[208.76.35.239]> <1229467142.9216.12.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> Message-ID: <20081217023325.GF17074@warlock.deepthought.com> On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 02:39:01PM -0800, Michael Robinson wrote: > > Now, seriously, if I send you an FDD setup and about 100 disks, will you shut up? > > I'll send it *AT MY EXPENSE* just to rid the list of your nonsense... and maybe get you to > > leave Mark and Boisy alone... > > > > Tony > > You lost the argument so you have to insist that you won because > me worrying about a floppy drive not working for very long time > isn't good enough? DVD writers are still optical drives. The > SVD II when it comes out, if it hasn't already, will support > DSDD disk format. At that point, nitros9 and hdb-dos should > work from dsk images that are loaded into it. > > Yes I can go dumpster diving or I can buy an as-is floppy drive > and hope it works, but why? Using obscenity on me because I > am not satisfied with disk technology in general doesn't make > sense either. > > Arguing that I need to do more research is another reason to > avoid floppy drive technology. I'd rather spend that effort > on figuring out how I can get an SVD II. In the meantime, > I'll convert coco disks to dsk images on my IBM which has > a 1.2 m drive. If that's what it takes. OK, you won the argument. Now please do us all a favor and go away. From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Dec 16 21:12:35 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 21:12:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Coco] new products - pre-announcement In-Reply-To: References: <1220151413.6006.38.camel@dev> <5d802cd0812161241r312ad298gd3d878581483b34e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Dec 2008, RON BIHLER wrote: > > His Coco stuff was sold on E-Bay and he is going to work on other > projects. The IDE Hd controller works great, very sorry to see Chuck > go. Dual RS232 and the network adapters, both had been close to > completion are now gone. Yes. Damn shame. I also have one of the IDE controller prototypes and it runs flawlessly. Would have purchased the other stuff in a heartbeat. Steve -- From farna at att.net Tue Dec 16 21:16:08 2008 From: farna at att.net (Frank Swygert) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 21:16:08 -0500 Subject: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... Message-ID: <494860E8.8090609@att.net> Mike, you make some good points. In fact, all the points you made about floppy drives are true EXCEPT "720K media is standard for the CoCo3". The CoCo (Tandy) has never officially supported 720K drives. Only OS-9 will support 720K drives. It's just coincidence (and our good luck) that the standard Tandy controller will support 720K drives. But you are missing a glaringly obvious fact -- anything done with the CoCo as far as hardware is concerned can be considered "retro" computing. So the way to go IS to get comfortable with dying hardware -- if you have a CoCo you're already there! We all know that the CoCo is an ancient machine as far as computers go. What you are doing is tantamount to complaining that an original IBM PC won't run Vista. General computing left the CoCo behind a long time ago. There is hardware available that updates the CoCo somewhat, but there are serious limitations to what the thing can do. It can still be a fun machine to play with, but most are doing just that -- playing with it. Some of the "play" is semi-serious experimenting and/or small jobs, like one lister's mini CNC mill run by a CoCo, but nothing commercially viable or "heavy duty". There's just not enough processing power to do a whole lot! The main virtue of the CoCo is that it's simple to program and learn, and can be easily interfaced with the real world -- both can be difficult and/or expensive using more powerful computers. You might be better off with a PIC microcontroller development system running on a PC. Consider the Rainbow IDE, that might be more of what you seem to want -- that and/or an emulator running on a PC instead of a real CoCo. You also make one good point in all this. Since a lot of CoCo enthusiasts spend a good deal of time on emulators, I don't see why software distribution via .dsk files on CD-ROM can't be an option. It shouldn't be the main method of distribution as most actual CoCo users still use floppies, whether you want to or not. You have to cater to the crowd in a niche market! I don't see a big deal with creating a .dsk image of a floppy and storing it on a PC, then sending it out on a CD-ROM on request. That's up to the vendor though, and you shouldn't be putting down a vendor for not wanting to go through the trouble for one or two people. Most of Cloud-9's stuff is hardware related, very little is software unless it's to support the hardware -- the exception being Drivewire. While you make a good point for distributing it as a .dsk file (at least as an option), Mark counters that many customers have problems converting from .dsk to real floppies, which most of them have and are familiar with. So it looks like a stalemate. Please don't continue to ruin a nice hobby for most of the folks here. Try making your point without pointing fingers and complaining. That or just leave. I'm not trying to be rude, but the tone and number of your negative posts are starting to get annoying. I'd love to welcome you to the crowd, but it really sounds like you're not going to be satisfied with a computer this old. If I'm wrong, stick around and ask questions when you have problems. Just realize that a lot of the answers will involve ancient technology... -------------- Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 21:27:31 -0800 From: Michael Robinson (reply edited for brevity) I don't want to support 5 1/4" disks in this day and age and here is why: (expense) At least someone is finally offering one for less than $150. Even so, this is approaching $50 shipped. The prices I see right now range from $29 to about $89, minus the shipping of course. I don't know about everyone else on here, but $13 for a 1.44 meg drive at your local electronics store is way less then $50. $50 is getting close to the price of a COCO 3, which can be had from cloud-9 for $60. Now then, 360k drives aren't the only choice. There are also, drum roll. 720k drives. Let's take a look at those. 720k media is standard for the COCO 3 by the way. A show of hands, how many people who have bought a new PC or Mac lately have noticed that it doesn't have a disk drive at all? These days if you want a disk drive, you generally go with a USB one ( especially if your computer is a laptop ). In summary: 1) Floppy disks are unreliable. 2) Floppy disks are getting harder to acquire. 3) Floppy drives are getting expensive, especially low density ones. 4) CD-R, CD-RW, usb stick, flash memory is getting better and cheaper per meg. 5) Being comfortable with a dying technology that is getting expensive, is that the way to go? People say they are comfortable with floppy disks. Why? Aside from drivewire there are alternative possibilities. One possibility is to send a usb stick or flash card to cloud-9 when you buy software. I've had problems with software on disks because my disk drives are bad. I bought a drivewire rom pack, I don't want to turn around and buy used disk drives as well. I would appreciate dsk images of the software from cloud-9 on cdrom that I can load into drivewire, if I want to purchase any more software. ** Any low density disk drive that I buy is going to be used. ** -- Frank Swygert Publisher, "American Motors Cars" Magazine (AMC) For all AMC enthusiasts http://farna.home.att.net/AMC.html (free download available!) From badfrog at gmail.com Tue Dec 16 21:45:10 2008 From: badfrog at gmail.com (Sean) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 20:45:10 -0600 Subject: [Coco] torn on getting a coco... In-Reply-To: <494860E8.8090609@att.net> References: <494860E8.8090609@att.net> Message-ID: <9efa17da0812161845i770eb800v8b509ad8d3c189c9@mail.gmail.com> I agree with Frank, if you enjoy playing with CoCo hardware, you should also enjoy using the old data formats too. And the floppies longevity was surprising, I sent a bunch of them to Derek to add to his ongoing archive, most of them the generic white-sleeved bulk type, and he was able to read them. I was also amazed with the earlier message where someone said "no PCs for us, everything useful is done on a CoCo". There's no way I could give up my PC that plays Warhammer Online and Crysis at 1900x1200 on a 24" widescreen monitor. While I did put the entire system together from scratch, there wasn't any cutting of caps to upgrade the memory, soldering of power supplies and crimping ribbon cables like in the old days. And Openoffice and The Gimp blows Max-10 and CocoMax 3 away. A 320x200 bitmap looks icon sized on my current monitor! Sean On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 8:16 PM, Frank Swygert wrote: > Mike, you make some good points. In fact, all the points you made about > floppy drives are true EXCEPT "720K media is standard for the CoCo3". The > CoCo (Tandy) has never officially supported 720K drives. Only OS-9 will > support 720K drives. It's just coincidence (and our good luck) that the > standard Tandy controller will support 720K drives. But you are missing a > glaringly obvious fact -- anything done with the CoCo as far as hardware is > concerned can be considered "retro" computing. So the way to go IS to get > comfortable with dying hardware -- if you have a CoCo you're already there! > We all know that the CoCo is an ancient machine as far as computers go. What > you are doing is tantamount to complaining that an original IBM PC won't run > Vista. General computing left the CoCo behind a long time ago. There is > hardware available that updates the CoCo somewhat, but there are serious > limitations to what the thing can do. It can still be a fun machine to play > with, but most are doing just that -- playing with it. Some of the "play" is > semi-serious experimenting and/or small jobs, like one lister's mini CNC > mill run by a CoCo, but nothing commercially viable or "heavy duty". There's > just not enough processing power to do a whole lot! The main virtue of the > CoCo is that it's simple to program and learn, and can be easily interfaced > with the real world -- both can be difficult and/or expensive using more > powerful computers. You might be better off with a PIC microcontroller > development system running on a PC. Consider the Rainbow IDE, that might be > more of what you seem to want -- that and/or an emulator running on a PC > instead of a real CoCo. You also make one good point in all this. Since a > lot of CoCo enthusiasts spend a good deal of time on emulators, I don't see > why software distribution via .dsk files on CD-ROM can't be an option. It > shouldn't be the main method of distribution as most actual CoCo users still > use floppies, whether you want to or not. You have to cater to the crowd in > a niche market! I don't see a big deal with creating a .dsk image of a > floppy and storing it on a PC, then sending it out on a CD-ROM on request. > That's up to the vendor though, and you shouldn't be putting down a vendor > for not wanting to go through the trouble for one or two people. Most of > Cloud-9's stuff is hardware related, very little is software unless it's to > support the hardware -- the exception being Drivewire. While you make a good > point for distributing it as a .dsk file (at least as an option), Mark > counters that many customers have problems converting from .dsk to real > floppies, which most of them have and are familiar with. So it looks like a > stalemate. Please don't continue to ruin a nice hobby for most of the folks > here. Try making your point without pointing fingers and complaining. That > or just leave. I'm not trying to be rude, but the tone and number of your > negative posts are starting to get annoying. I'd love to welcome you to the > crowd, but it really sounds like you're not going to be satisfied with a > computer this old. If I'm wrong, stick around and ask questions when you > have problems. Just realize that a lot of the answers will involve ancient > technology... -------------- Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2008 21:27:31 -0800 From: > Michael Robinson (reply edited for brevity) I > don't want to support 5 1/4" disks in this day and age and here is why: > (expense) > > At least someone is finally offering one for less than $150. Even so, this > is approaching $50 shipped. The prices I see right now range from $29 to > about $89, minus the shipping of course. > > I don't know about everyone else on here, but $13 for a 1.44 meg drive > at your local electronics store is way less then $50. $50 is getting close > to the price of a COCO 3, which can be had from cloud-9 for $60. > > Now then, 360k drives aren't the only choice. There are also, drum > roll. 720k drives. Let's take a look at those. > > 720k media is standard for the COCO 3 by the way. > > A show of hands, how many people who have bought a new PC or Mac lately have > noticed that it doesn't have a disk drive at all? These days if you want a > disk drive, you generally go with a USB one ( especially if your computer is > a laptop ). > > > In summary: > > 1) Floppy disks are unreliable. > 2) Floppy disks are getting harder to acquire. > 3) Floppy drives are getting expensive, especially low density ones. > 4) CD-R, CD-RW, usb stick, flash memory is getting better and cheaper per > meg. > 5) Being comfortable with a dying technology that is getting expensive, > is that the way to go? > > People say they are comfortable with floppy disks. Why? Aside from > drivewire there are alternative possibilities. One possibility is to > send a usb stick or flash card to cloud-9 when you buy software. > > I've had problems with software on disks because my disk drives are bad. I > bought a drivewire rom pack, I don't want to turn around and > buy used disk drives as well. I would appreciate dsk images of the > software from cloud-9 on cdrom that I can load into drivewire, if I > want to purchase any more software. > > ** Any low density disk drive that I buy is going to be used. ** > > > -- > Frank Swygert > Publisher, "American Motors Cars" Magazine (AMC) > For all AMC enthusiasts > http://farna.home.att.net/AMC.html > (free download available!) > > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > From badfrog at gmail.com Tue Dec 16 22:20:25 2008 From: badfrog at gmail.com (Sean) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 21:20:25 -0600 Subject: [Coco] Random Radio Shack question Message-ID: <9efa17da0812161920i7772f7fcv57c6290470eed3ce@mail.gmail.com> Anyone remember the 'battery club' cards? I always picked 9V, seemed to need those the most. From tjseagrove at writeme.com Tue Dec 16 22:44:05 2008 From: tjseagrove at writeme.com (Tom Seagrove) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 22:44:05 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Random Radio Shack question In-Reply-To: <9efa17da0812161920i7772f7fcv57c6290470eed3ce@mail.gmail.com> References: <9efa17da0812161920i7772f7fcv57c6290470eed3ce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <001a01c95ff9$b59b9ea0$20d2dbe0$@com> Had cards with me all the time back in the 70's -----Original Message----- From: coco-bounces at maltedmedia.com [mailto:coco-bounces at maltedmedia.com] On Behalf Of Sean Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2008 10:20 PM To: CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts Subject: [Coco] Random Radio Shack question Anyone remember the 'battery club' cards? I always picked 9V, seemed to need those the most. -- Coco mailing list Coco at maltedmedia.com http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.18/1851 - Release Date: 12/16/2008 8:53 AM From gene.heskett at verizon.net Tue Dec 16 22:53:42 2008 From: gene.heskett at verizon.net (Gene Heskett) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 22:53:42 -0500 Subject: [Coco] =?iso-8859-1?q?Now_THIS_would_have_been_a_great_class_to_t?= =?iso-8859-1?q?ake_back_in=09college?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200812162253.42533.gene.heskett@verizon.net> On Tuesday 16 December 2008, John wrote: >Apropos of nothing, and only tangentially related to the coco: >http://fab.cba.mit.edu/classes/MIT/863.08/ > > Unforch, no year date is included. I suspect that is a bit old now. > >Have fun, > >John > > >-- >Coco mailing list >Coco at maltedmedia.com >http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco -- Cheers, Gene "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Profanity is the one language all programmers know best. From deemcr at robinson-west.com Tue Dec 16 23:04:09 2008 From: deemcr at robinson-west.com (Michael Robinson) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 20:04:09 -0800 Subject: [Coco] Retro computing and what's worth it... Message-ID: <1229486650.4077.23.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> Okay, a coco is a dead computer architecture that won't compete at all with what's currently available. Why is the coco interesting to me? Well, my nephew is interested in it as a low power computer that is fairly easy to program. Now then, does he have to get used to disk drives just because he wants to use a COCO 3? I'd rather not bother with that. If retro computing means that you have to use the old methods of accessing data, then I suppose someone should have a punch card machine. Practically speaking, there are different levels of retro computing and different goals. For example, adding memory to a COCO 3 doesn't change it significantly. Getting away from disk drives without going to tape is a major change, but not so major depending on how done. A virtual disk drive and an original disk controller combination can potentially relieve the need to work with floppy disks without losing the functionality of floppy disks. Right now, the SVD II may not be out and I don't know what it costs. Now then, the drivewire solution breaks down when and if I need the serial port or a program breaks the disk access rules. In my case, the way my COCO 3 has been being used, drivewire has been an inexpensive and effective solution. I have a working drivewire image of Cloud 9's 512k test program for example. I've seen countless COCO 2 games played on my COCO 3 via drivewire. I decided to get a Playstation II hoping to put Linux on it so my nephew can C program and play more modern games. Well, how do I get a Playstation II compatible Linux system without paying a mint? Someone on the Linux list has suggested that I need a $60 mod chip, but how will that affect the Playstation when it comes to supporting video games? I know, this is off topic for a coco list ;-) From deemcr at robinson-west.com Tue Dec 16 23:07:01 2008 From: deemcr at robinson-west.com (Michael Robinson) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 20:07:01 -0800 Subject: [Coco] I don't like floppy technology... In-Reply-To: <20081217023325.GF17074@warlock.deepthought.com> References: <200812160343527.SM04672@[208.76.35.239]> <1229467142.9216.12.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <20081217023325.GF17074@warlock.deepthought.com> Message-ID: <1229486822.4077.26.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> > If that's what it takes. OK, you won the argument. Now please do us > all a favor and go away. What's your problem anyways? How would you respond to someone using obscenity on you? I have as much right to be on this list an anyone else does. From gene.heskett at verizon.net Tue Dec 16 23:15:51 2008 From: gene.heskett at verizon.net (Gene Heskett) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 23:15:51 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Retro computing and what's worth it... In-Reply-To: <1229486650.4077.23.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> References: <1229486650.4077.23.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> Message-ID: <200812162315.51054.gene.heskett@verizon.net> On Tuesday 16 December 2008, Michael Robinson wrote: >Okay, a coco is a dead computer architecture that won't compete at all >with what's currently available. Why is the coco interesting to me? >Well, my nephew is interested in it as a low power computer that is >fairly easy to program. Now then, does he have to get used to disk >drives just because he wants to use a COCO 3? I'd rather not bother >with that. If retro computing means that you have to use the old >methods of accessing data, then I suppose someone should have >a punch card machine. Practically speaking, there are different >levels of retro computing and different goals. For example, adding >memory to a COCO 3 doesn't change it significantly. Getting away from >disk drives without going to tape is a major change, but not so major >depending on how done. A virtual disk drive and an original disk >controller combination can potentially relieve the need to work with >floppy disks without losing the functionality of floppy disks. Right >now, the SVD II may not be out and I don't know what it costs. Now >then, the drivewire solution breaks down when and if I need the serial >port or a program breaks the disk access rules. In my case, the >way my COCO 3 has been being used, drivewire has been an inexpensive >and effective solution. > >I have a working drivewire image of Cloud 9's 512k test program for >example. I've seen countless COCO 2 games played on my COCO 3 >via drivewire. > >I decided to get a Playstation II hoping to put Linux on it so my >nephew can C program and play more modern games. Well, how do I >get a Playstation II compatible Linux system without paying a >mint? Someone on the Linux list has suggested that I need a $60 >mod chip, but how will that affect the Playstation when it comes >to supporting video games? I know, this is off topic for a coco >list ;-) Not to mention that the courts have put the mod-chip people out of business, theoretically. No great loss to me, I only got stuck with putting one of them in, and found I needed the same size soldering iron one would use for bonding out wires internal to a chip. One place less than 1/4" in diameter has 9 wires tagged onto the via pads. I wouldn't touch another of those for all the tea in boston harbor. -- Cheers, Gene "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) but, then I used an Atari, I was more likely to win the lottery in ten countries simultaneously than get accelerated X From msmcdoug at iinet.net.au Tue Dec 16 23:30:33 2008 From: msmcdoug at iinet.net.au (Mark McDougall) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 15:30:33 +1100 Subject: [Coco] Retro computing and what's worth it... In-Reply-To: <1229486650.4077.23.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> References: <1229486650.4077.23.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> Message-ID: <49488069.7080304@iinet.net.au> Michael Robinson wrote: > I decided to get a Playstation II hoping to put Linux on it so my > nephew can C program and play more modern games. Well, how do I > get a Playstation II compatible Linux system without paying a > mint? Someone on the Linux list has suggested that I need a $60 > mod chip, but how will that affect the Playstation when it comes > to supporting video games? Installing most PS2 modchips is not for the feint-hearted. And be warned that certain models of PS2 have problems with laser-burnout when used with modchips. Since modchips are designed to allow users to play copied games, the game-playing ability of the PS2 won't be adversely affected. I wouldn't say that a modded PS2 is your best choice for a game/programming platform - you'll need to add a hard disk for instance, and adapters for mouse & keyboard. And linux distos for consoles tend to run quite slow and require tweaked packages in some cases. Not the best platform for a beginner programmer. For "modern" games you need a reasonably high-end PC or course, but for programming you don't need much grunt at all. I'd suggest a cheap 2nd-hand (unmodded) PS2 for games and a cheap "throw-away" PC for programming - which could probably be had for as much as a mod chip. Regards, -- | Mark McDougall | "Electrical Engineers do it | | with less resistance!" From badfrog at gmail.com Tue Dec 16 23:44:48 2008 From: badfrog at gmail.com (Sean) Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 22:44:48 -0600 Subject: [Coco] Retro computing and what's worth it... In-Reply-To: <49488069.7080304@iinet.net.au> References: <1229486650.4077.23.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <49488069.7080304@iinet.net.au> Message-ID: <9efa17da0812162044o459645fxbc822b30d47dcfae@mail.gmail.com> There was an official Sony release that allowed a PS2 to run Linux. However, according to this Wikipedia entry it might be hard to find. Personally I never pursued it. My PS2 was for games, and I had plenty of PCs to run Linux on. And since I liked the games, I didn't want to risk breaking it! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_for_PlayStation_2 Modding a PS2 to accept other OSs is a totally different animal. I'd just get the boy an old DOS box if you want him to learn how to use command prompts. Too much modding is required to get a game system to do the same stuff as an old PC. On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 10:30 PM, Mark McDougall wrote: > Michael Robinson wrote: > >> I decided to get a Playstation II hoping to put Linux on it so my >> nephew can C program and play more modern games. Well, how do I >> get a Playstation II compatible Linux system without paying a mint? >> Someone on the Linux list has suggested that I need a $60 >> mod chip, but how will that affect the Playstation when it comes >> to supporting video games? > > Installing most PS2 modchips is not for the feint-hearted. And be warned > that certain models of PS2 have problems with laser-burnout when used with > modchips. > > Since modchips are designed to allow users to play copied games, the > game-playing ability of the PS2 won't be adversely affected. > > I wouldn't say that a modded PS2 is your best choice for a game/programming > platform - you'll need to add a hard disk for instance, and adapters for > mouse & keyboard. And linux distos for consoles tend to run quite slow and > require tweaked packages in some cases. Not the best platform for a beginner > programmer. > > For "modern" games you need a reasonably high-end PC or course, but for > programming you don't need much grunt at all. I'd suggest a cheap 2nd-hand > (unmodded) PS2 for games and a cheap "throw-away" PC for programming - which > could probably be had for as much as a mod chip. > > Regards, > > -- > | Mark McDougall | "Electrical Engineers do it > | | with less resistance!" > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > From petrander at gmail.com Wed Dec 17 02:30:19 2008 From: petrander at gmail.com (Fedor Steeman) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 08:30:19 +0100 Subject: [Coco] Assembly help: Corrupted bin file ? Message-ID: Hello everyone, I am still trying to learn assembly language but keep on running into problems. I have been trying to have the following source code assembled: VIDRAM EQU $0400 *Start of Video Display location V0CLR EQU $FFC0 *Clear bit for Sam Chip (Graphics mode) V1SET EQU $FFC3 *Set V1 bit in Sam Chip (Graphics mode) V2SET EQU $FFC5 *set V2 bit in Sam Chip (Graphics mode) VOFSET EQU $FFC6 *Display Offset Binary, This is the CLR Bit (Video page offset) VDGSET EQU $FF22 *PIA1 data port B: VDG Control output POLCAT EQU $A000 *Color Basic rom poll keyboard routine ORG $21FD LDX #VIDRAM *331D: 8E 04 00 LDD $AAAA *3320: CC AA AA Z3323 STD ,X++ *3323: ED 81 CMPX #$1C00 *3325: 8C 1C 00 BCS Z3323 *3328: 25 F9 NOP *332A: 12 PMODE4 STA V0CLR *2787: B7 FF C0 STA V1SET *278A: B7 FF C3 STA V2SET *278D: B7 FF C5 LDA #$F8 *2790: 86 F8 STA VDGSET *2792: B7 FF 22 STA VOFSET *2795: B7 FF C6 JSR [POLCAT] *332E: AD 9F A0 00 RTS *3332: Using Roger Taylor's CCASM (as included in RainbowIDE) I get the following binary file: 00 00 24 21 FD 8E 04 00 FC AA AA ED 81 8C 1C 00 25 F9 12 B7 FF C0 B7 FF C3 B7 FF C5 86 F8 B7 FF 22 B7 FF C6 AD 9F A0 00 39 When I try to run this binary file using the VCC emulator I get an error message stating that the binary file is corrupt. Can anyone help me try to understand whether there is anything wrong with my source code, the assembler (i.e. the resulting binary file) or the emulator? Thanks in advance! Cheers, Fedor From os9dude at gmail.com Wed Dec 17 07:44:21 2008 From: os9dude at gmail.com (Rogelio Perea) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 07:44:21 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Random Radio Shack question In-Reply-To: <9efa17da0812161920i7772f7fcv57c6290470eed3ce@mail.gmail.com> References: <9efa17da0812161920i7772f7fcv57c6290470eed3ce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5631e580812170444p36ddd94fy52f31007b4f87dc9@mail.gmail.com> Ahhh... the battery a month club or something like that? I had one card and my brother another, so we would get two free batteries each month. How much were those general purpose (rather low grade) red batteries worth? Nice gimmick to draw in a customer who may then pick up something else, even if he/she was "just steppin' in to get the free battery". It is incredible how much the store marks up the batteries. Word to the wise: buy your batteries elsewhere - about the only thing nice about getting them at RS is if they're of the hard to find types. -=[ R ]=- On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 10:20 PM, Sean wrote: > Anyone remember the 'battery club' cards? > > I always picked 9V, seemed to need those the most. > From flexser at fiu.edu Wed Dec 17 08:16:05 2008 From: flexser at fiu.edu (Art Flexser) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 08:16:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Coco] Random Radio Shack question In-Reply-To: <5631e580812170444p36ddd94fy52f31007b4f87dc9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I agree about the batteries. I had remembered from the 'old days' that RS used to give you the best buy on batteries. But the other day, I needed a watch-type battery, stopped into the Shack, and found it priced at $6.99. That seemed awfully high to me, so I figured I'd check if my supermarket carried it. They did--for $1.99! Art On Wed, 17 Dec 2008, Rogelio Perea wrote: > Ahhh... the battery a month club or something like that? > > I had one card and my brother another, so we would get two free batteries > each month. How much were those general purpose (rather low grade) red > batteries worth? > > Nice gimmick to draw in a customer who may then pick up something else, even > if he/she was "just steppin' in to get the free battery". > > It is incredible how much the store marks up the batteries. Word to the > wise: buy your batteries elsewhere - about the only thing nice about getting > them at RS is if they're of the hard to find types. > > > > -=[ R ]=- > > > > On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 10:20 PM, Sean wrote: > > > Anyone remember the 'battery club' cards? > > > > I always picked 9V, seemed to need those the most. > > > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > From gmajor at videotron.ca Wed Dec 17 08:18:56 2008 From: gmajor at videotron.ca (Guillaume Major) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 08:18:56 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Assembly help: Corrupted bin file ? References: Message-ID: The tail of the file seems to be missing. It should contains: FF 00 00 xx xx where xx xx is the execute address. There should be an option in RainbowIDE to generate valid RS-DOS files. Guillaume "Fedor Steeman" a ?crit dans le message de news: dcc956220812162330t4b8be888je63b60fd6321d19f at mail.gmail.com... > Hello everyone, > > I am still trying to learn assembly language but keep on running into > problems. > > I have been trying to have the following source code assembled: > > VIDRAM EQU $0400 *Start of Video Display location > V0CLR EQU $FFC0 *Clear bit for Sam Chip (Graphics mode) > V1SET EQU $FFC3 *Set V1 bit in Sam Chip (Graphics mode) > V2SET EQU $FFC5 *set V2 bit in Sam Chip (Graphics mode) > VOFSET EQU $FFC6 *Display Offset Binary, This is the CLR Bit > (Video page offset) > VDGSET EQU $FF22 *PIA1 data port B: VDG Control output > POLCAT EQU $A000 *Color Basic rom poll keyboard routine > > ORG $21FD > LDX #VIDRAM *331D: 8E 04 00 > LDD $AAAA *3320: CC AA AA > Z3323 STD ,X++ *3323: ED 81 > CMPX #$1C00 *3325: 8C 1C 00 > BCS Z3323 *3328: 25 F9 > NOP *332A: 12 > PMODE4 STA V0CLR *2787: B7 FF C0 > STA V1SET *278A: B7 FF C3 > STA V2SET *278D: B7 FF C5 > LDA #$F8 *2790: 86 F8 > STA VDGSET *2792: B7 FF 22 > STA VOFSET *2795: B7 FF C6 > JSR [POLCAT] *332E: AD 9F A0 00 > RTS *3332: > > Using Roger Taylor's CCASM (as included in RainbowIDE) I get the following > binary file: > > 00 00 24 21 FD 8E 04 00 FC AA AA ED 81 8C 1C 00 > 25 F9 12 B7 FF C0 B7 FF C3 B7 FF C5 86 F8 B7 FF > 22 B7 FF C6 AD 9F A0 00 39 > > When I try to run this binary file using the VCC emulator I get an error > message stating that the binary file is corrupt. > > Can anyone help me try to understand whether there is anything wrong with > my > source code, the assembler (i.e. the resulting binary file) or the > emulator? > > Thanks in advance! > > Cheers, > Fedor > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > From flexser at fiu.edu Wed Dec 17 08:21:45 2008 From: flexser at fiu.edu (Art Flexser) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 08:21:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Coco] Assembly help: Corrupted bin file ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Looks to me like the generated file is lacking its final segment that contains the execution address. Also, the JSR [POLCAT] at the end doesn't do anything--if you want it to wait for a keypress before terminating, you need a BEQ
after it. Art On Wed, 17 Dec 2008, Fedor Steeman wrote: > Hello everyone, > > I am still trying to learn assembly language but keep on running into > problems. > > I have been trying to have the following source code assembled: > > VIDRAM EQU $0400 *Start of Video Display location > V0CLR EQU $FFC0 *Clear bit for Sam Chip (Graphics mode) > V1SET EQU $FFC3 *Set V1 bit in Sam Chip (Graphics mode) > V2SET EQU $FFC5 *set V2 bit in Sam Chip (Graphics mode) > VOFSET EQU $FFC6 *Display Offset Binary, This is the CLR Bit > (Video page offset) > VDGSET EQU $FF22 *PIA1 data port B: VDG Control output > POLCAT EQU $A000 *Color Basic rom poll keyboard routine > > ORG $21FD > LDX #VIDRAM *331D: 8E 04 00 > LDD $AAAA *3320: CC AA AA > Z3323 STD ,X++ *3323: ED 81 > CMPX #$1C00 *3325: 8C 1C 00 > BCS Z3323 *3328: 25 F9 > NOP *332A: 12 > PMODE4 STA V0CLR *2787: B7 FF C0 > STA V1SET *278A: B7 FF C3 > STA V2SET *278D: B7 FF C5 > LDA #$F8 *2790: 86 F8 > STA VDGSET *2792: B7 FF 22 > STA VOFSET *2795: B7 FF C6 > JSR [POLCAT] *332E: AD 9F A0 00 > RTS *3332: > > Using Roger Taylor's CCASM (as included in RainbowIDE) I get the following > binary file: > > 00 00 24 21 FD 8E 04 00 FC AA AA ED 81 8C 1C 00 > 25 F9 12 B7 FF C0 B7 FF C3 B7 FF C5 86 F8 B7 FF > 22 B7 FF C6 AD 9F A0 00 39 > > When I try to run this binary file using the VCC emulator I get an error > message stating that the binary file is corrupt. > > Can anyone help me try to understand whether there is anything wrong with my > source code, the assembler (i.e. the resulting binary file) or the emulator? > > Thanks in advance! > > Cheers, > Fedor > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > From linville at tuxdriver.com Wed Dec 17 08:30:25 2008 From: linville at tuxdriver.com (John W. Linville) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 08:30:25 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Retro computing and what's worth it... In-Reply-To: <9efa17da0812162044o459645fxbc822b30d47dcfae@mail.gmail.com> References: <1229486650.4077.23.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <49488069.7080304@iinet.net.au> <9efa17da0812162044o459645fxbc822b30d47dcfae@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081217133024.GA3510@tuxdriver.com> On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 10:44:48PM -0600, Sean wrote: > There was an official Sony release that allowed a PS2 to run Linux. > However, according to this Wikipedia entry it might be hard to find. > Personally I never pursued it. My PS2 was for games, and I had plenty > of PCs to run Linux on. And since I liked the games, I didn't want to > risk breaking it! > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_for_PlayStation_2 > > Modding a PS2 to accept other OSs is a totally different animal. I'd > just get the boy an old DOS box if you want him to learn how to use > command prompts. Too much modding is required to get a game system to > do the same stuff as an old PC. A PS3 is a much easier option for running Linux. You can install several different distributions from the standard install media, including Fedora, YellowDog and doubtless others. I find it to be a little slow, but it is usable. John -- John W. Linville Linux should be at the core linville at tuxdriver.com of your literate lifestyle. From dml_68 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 17 09:56:55 2008 From: dml_68 at yahoo.com (Derek) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 06:56:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Coco] 1989 RBM Magazine Archive Message-ID: <997447.33237.qm@web30201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I have gotten the year 1989 up and ready to be enjoyed by all. I have also included .PAR files for those who request them. It is not the complete year. Please contact me via e-mail if you have any missing issues from this year (or any other years I have posted already) and I will get them added to the archive. Links can be found here: http://coco3.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=3786#3786 Happy Holidays all ** Mistrust Authority. Promote Decentralization ** From rob.coco at zaphod.tzo.com Wed Dec 17 10:10:00 2008 From: rob.coco at zaphod.tzo.com (Rob Rosenbrock) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 10:10:00 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Random Radio Shack question Message-ID: <2ea10fi0f5p0qoy.171220081006@zaphod.tzo.com> There is a battery club card group on LinkedIn. Radio Shack was well known for those cards. They were quite an effective tool for bringing people in once a month. 9volt batteries were probably the most popular. C's and D's are generally used in pairs, so a single battery wasn't useful -- but we would often mark off two months at a time at our store and allow people to have two. (Technically, we were supposed to sell the second one, but a .19 ticket would do severe damage to our ticket average.) -----Original Message----- From: "Sean" To: "CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts" Sent: 12/16/08 10:20 PM Subject: [Coco] Random Radio Shack question Anyone remember the 'battery club' cards? I always picked 9V, seemed to need those the most. -- Coco mailing list Coco at maltedmedia.com http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco From petrander at gmail.com Wed Dec 17 10:20:35 2008 From: petrander at gmail.com (Fedor Steeman) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 16:20:35 +0100 Subject: [Coco] Assembly help: Corrupted bin file ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, Thanks! >Guillaume wrote: > FF 00 00 xx xx > where xx xx is the execute address. > I notice the binary starts with 00 00 24 21 ... wheren 24 21 is the execution address. Should the binary really start with FF 00 00 24 21 ? Is this a bug in the assembler or did I forget to set an option? > Art wrote: > Looks to me like the generated file is lacking its final segment that contains > the execution address. > Now that is confusing. Should the binary start with the execution or end with it? And again: Is this a bug in the assembler or did I forget to set an option? I did get other assembly programs to compile and run with no problems. These do not seem to have these segments attached in the binaries... >Art wrote: > Also, the JSR [POLCAT] at the end doesn't do anything--if you want it to wait > for a keypress before terminating, you need a BEQ
> after it. Thanks for the input! I will adjust the code accordingly! Cheers, Fedor 2008/12/17 Guillaume Major > FF 00 00 xx xx > > where xx xx is the execute address. There should be an option in RainbowIDE > to generate valid RS-DOS files. > > Guillaume > > "Fedor Steeman" a ?crit > dans le message de news: > dcc956220812162330t4b8be888je63b60fd6321d19f at mail.gmail.com... > > Hello everyone, > > > > I am still trying to learn assembly language but keep on running into > > problems. > > > > I have been trying to have the following source code assembled: > > > > VIDRAM EQU $0400 *Start of Video Display location > > V0CLR EQU $FFC0 *Clear bit for Sam Chip (Graphics mode) > > V1SET EQU $FFC3 *Set V1 bit in Sam Chip (Graphics mode) > > V2SET EQU $FFC5 *set V2 bit in Sam Chip (Graphics mode) > > VOFSET EQU $FFC6 *Display Offset Binary, This is the CLR Bit > > (Video page offset) > > VDGSET EQU $FF22 *PIA1 data port B: VDG Control output > > POLCAT EQU $A000 *Color Basic rom poll keyboard routine > > > > ORG $21FD > > LDX #VIDRAM *331D: 8E 04 00 > > LDD $AAAA *3320: CC AA AA > > Z3323 STD ,X++ *3323: ED 81 > > CMPX #$1C00 *3325: 8C 1C 00 > > BCS Z3323 *3328: 25 F9 > > NOP *332A: 12 > > PMODE4 STA V0CLR *2787: B7 FF C0 > > STA V1SET *278A: B7 FF C3 > > STA V2SET *278D: B7 FF C5 > > LDA #$F8 *2790: 86 F8 > > STA VDGSET *2792: B7 FF 22 > > STA VOFSET *2795: B7 FF C6 > > JSR [POLCAT] *332E: AD 9F A0 00 > > RTS *3332: > > > > Using Roger Taylor's CCASM (as included in RainbowIDE) I get the > following > > binary file: > > > > 00 00 24 21 FD 8E 04 00 FC AA AA ED 81 8C 1C 00 > > 25 F9 12 B7 FF C0 B7 FF C3 B7 FF C5 86 F8 B7 FF > > 22 B7 FF C6 AD 9F A0 00 39 > > > > When I try to run this binary file using the VCC emulator I get an error > > message stating that the binary file is corrupt. > > > > Can anyone help me try to understand whether there is anything wrong with > > my > > source code, the assembler (i.e. the resulting binary file) or the > > emulator? > > > > Thanks in advance! > > > > Cheers, > > Fedor > > > > -- > > Coco mailing list > > Coco at maltedmedia.com > > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > > > > > > > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > > From mechacoco at gmail.com Wed Dec 17 11:07:37 2008 From: mechacoco at gmail.com (Darren A) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 09:07:37 -0700 Subject: [Coco] Assembly help: Corrupted bin file ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5d802cd0812170807p3d3d6a99gdbc3e8acb84f5055@mail.gmail.com> On 12/17/08, Fedor Steeman wrote: >> FF 00 00 xx xx >> where xx xx is the execute address. >> > > I notice the binary starts with 00 00 24 21 ... wheren 24 21 is the > execution address. Should the binary really start with FF 00 00 24 21 ? Is > this a bug in the assembler or did I forget to set an option? The first 5 bytes are correct the way they are. The first byte is zero indicating that it is not the end-of-file segment. The next two bytes (00 24) indicate the size of your code and the last two bytes (21 FD) specifiy the address where the code should be loaded. Following the 5 byte header is your code. Another 5 byte postamble needs to be added to the end of the file. It should be: FF 00 00 21 FD The FF bytes indicates end-of-file. The two zero bytes are ignored and the last two bytes (21 FD) are the execution address. Darren From robert.gault at worldnet.att.net Wed Dec 17 11:11:55 2008 From: robert.gault at worldnet.att.net (Robert Gault) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 11:11:55 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Assembly help: Corrupted bin file ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <494924CB.4030107@worldnet.att.net> Fedor, There could be several things wrong here depending on how you tried to use this with VCC. There is also a problem with the source regards CCASM or any of the assemblers that are used with a Coco. It would help to know how you tried to use this with VCC. Comments are inserted below. > "Fedor Steeman" a ?crit > dans le message de news: > dcc956220812162330t4b8be888je63b60fd6321d19f at mail.gmail.com... >> Hello everyone, >> >> I am still trying to learn assembly language but keep on running into >> problems. >> >> I have been trying to have the following source code assembled: >> >> VIDRAM EQU $0400 *Start of Video Display location >> V0CLR EQU $FFC0 *Clear bit for Sam Chip (Graphics mode) >> V1SET EQU $FFC3 *Set V1 bit in Sam Chip (Graphics mode) >> V2SET EQU $FFC5 *set V2 bit in Sam Chip (Graphics mode) >> VOFSET EQU $FFC6 *Display Offset Binary, This is the CLR Bit >> (Video page offset) >> VDGSET EQU $FF22 *PIA1 data port B: VDG Control output >> POLCAT EQU $A000 *Color Basic rom poll keyboard routine >> >> ORG $21FD >> LDX #VIDRAM *331D: 8E 04 00 This next can't be what you wanted. Almost certainly you intended to store the value $AAAA into memory. That means the next line should be changed to LDD #$AAAA >> LDD $AAAA *3320: CC AA AA >> Z3323 STD ,X++ *3323: ED 81 >> CMPX #$1C00 *3325: 8C 1C 00 >> BCS Z3323 *3328: 25 F9 There is no reason for the next line. It is not required for a timing issue and certainly was not used to block out previous code. :) >> NOP *332A: 12 >> PMODE4 STA V0CLR *2787: B7 FF C0 >> STA V1SET *278A: B7 FF C3 >> STA V2SET *278D: B7 FF C5 >> LDA #$F8 *2790: 86 F8 >> STA VDGSET *2792: B7 FF 22 >> STA VOFSET *2795: B7 FF C6 The next two lines have two problems, one already mentioned by another reader is the keyboard is only checked once so any key press is likely to be missed. The other is the use of JSR then RTS. Since the JSR already has an RTS at its end, that results in RTS RTS which is a waste of space and time. There are several ways of changing the code depending on whether you need the value of the key pressed or are just waiting for any key to be pressed. I prefer in the latter case to just use the Disk Basic code and JSR $ADFB. In your code example, it would just be JMP $ADFB. However, assuming you might want the value of the pressed key and using the example of POLCAT, the lines should be L1 JSR [POLCAT] BEQ L1 do something with the key value RTS >> JSR [POLCAT] *332E: AD 9F A0 00 >> RTS *3332: This needs and END statement and if you intended to LOADM the code it also needs a reference to the execution address. The following changes are needed. >> ORG $21FD >> Start LDX #VIDRAM *331D: 8E 04 00 .... >> JSR [POLCAT] *332E: AD 9F A0 00 >> RTS *3332: END Start >> >> Using Roger Taylor's CCASM (as included in RainbowIDE) I get the following >> binary file: >> The origin of the code is shown below (the 2421) but the length of the sequence is zero (the first two 00 00). CCASM did not know how long your program should be. Also you may not have selected the correct Object Output in RainbowIDE. >> 00 00 24 21 FD 8E 04 00 FC AA AA ED 81 8C 1C 00 >> 25 F9 12 B7 FF C0 B7 FF C3 B7 FF C5 86 F8 B7 FF >> 22 B7 FF C6 AD 9F A0 00 39 As mentioned by another reader, there is no footer to this code to be used by LOADM. >> >> When I try to run this binary file using the VCC emulator I get an error >> message stating that the binary file is corrupt. >> >> Can anyone help me try to understand whether there is anything wrong with >> my >> source code, the assembler (i.e. the resulting binary file) or the >> emulator? >> >> Thanks in advance! >> >> Cheers, >> Fedor You probably should indicate exactly how you asked RainbowIDE to compile your code because there might be something wrong at that end of the process. From sklammer at gmail.com Wed Dec 17 11:47:09 2008 From: sklammer at gmail.com (Shain Klammer) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 11:47:09 -0500 Subject: [Coco] new products - pre-announcement In-Reply-To: References: <1220151413.6006.38.camel@dev> <5d802cd0812161241r312ad298gd3d878581483b34e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3925f0b0812170847q6b4003d5u6ff9462e23843cf9@mail.gmail.com> Would Chuck permit other(s) to continue work from these prototypes? 2008/12/16 Steven Hirsch > On Tue, 16 Dec 2008, RON BIHLER wrote: > > >> His Coco stuff was sold on E-Bay and he is going to work on other >> projects. The IDE Hd controller works great, very sorry to see Chuck go. >> Dual RS232 and the network adapters, both had been close to completion are >> now gone. >> > > Yes. Damn shame. I also have one of the IDE controller prototypes and it > runs flawlessly. Would have purchased the other stuff in a heartbeat. > > Steve > > > -- > > -- > > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > From fwp at deepthought.com Wed Dec 17 15:35:26 2008 From: fwp at deepthought.com (Frank Pittel) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 14:35:26 -0600 Subject: [Coco] Retro computing and what's worth it... In-Reply-To: <20081217133024.GA3510@tuxdriver.com> References: <1229486650.4077.23.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <49488069.7080304@iinet.net.au> <9efa17da0812162044o459645fxbc822b30d47dcfae@mail.gmail.com> <20081217133024.GA3510@tuxdriver.com> Message-ID: <20081217203526.GG17074@warlock.deepthought.com> On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 08:30:25AM -0500, John W. Linville wrote: > On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 10:44:48PM -0600, Sean wrote: > > There was an official Sony release that allowed a PS2 to run Linux. > > However, according to this Wikipedia entry it might be hard to find. > > Personally I never pursued it. My PS2 was for games, and I had plenty > > of PCs to run Linux on. And since I liked the games, I didn't want to > > risk breaking it! > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_for_PlayStation_2 > > > > Modding a PS2 to accept other OSs is a totally different animal. I'd > > just get the boy an old DOS box if you want him to learn how to use > > command prompts. Too much modding is required to get a game system to > > do the same stuff as an old PC. > > A PS3 is a much easier option for running Linux. You can install > several different distributions from the standard install media, > including Fedora, YellowDog and doubtless others. I find it to be > a little slow, but it is usable. Wouldn't it be easier and possibly cheaper in the long run to go out and buy a sub five hundred dollar computer and put linux on it? From deemcr at robinson-west.com Wed Dec 17 15:08:56 2008 From: deemcr at robinson-west.com (Michael Robinson) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 12:08:56 -0800 Subject: [Coco] Retro computing and what's worth it... In-Reply-To: <20081217203526.GG17074@warlock.deepthought.com> References: <1229486650.4077.23.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <49488069.7080304@iinet.net.au> <9efa17da0812162044o459645fxbc822b30d47dcfae@mail.gmail.com> <20081217133024.GA3510@tuxdriver.com> <20081217203526.GG17074@warlock.deepthought.com> Message-ID: <1229544537.7838.40.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> On Wed, 2008-12-17 at 14:35 -0600, Frank Pittel wrote: > On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 08:30:25AM -0500, John W. Linville wrote: > > On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 10:44:48PM -0600, Sean wrote: > > > There was an official Sony release that allowed a PS2 to run Linux. > > > However, according to this Wikipedia entry it might be hard to find. > > > Personally I never pursued it. My PS2 was for games, and I had plenty > > > of PCs to run Linux on. And since I liked the games, I didn't want to > > > risk breaking it! > > > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_for_PlayStation_2 > > > > > > Modding a PS2 to accept other OSs is a totally different animal. I'd > > > just get the boy an old DOS box if you want him to learn how to use > > > command prompts. Too much modding is required to get a game system to > > > do the same stuff as an old PC. > > > > A PS3 is a much easier option for running Linux. You can install > > several different distributions from the standard install media, > > including Fedora, YellowDog and doubtless others. I find it to be > > a little slow, but it is usable. > > Wouldn't it be easier and possibly cheaper in the long run to go out and > buy a sub five hundred dollar computer and put linux on it? > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco This has been a frustrating journey that has gone from buy him a COCO 3 to a Playstation II to... the problem being that I don't want to spend much beyond $50 for a Christmas present. I find laptops on ebay that should be in range price wise, but people bid them up. If a Playstation III wasn't so expensive, I'd go that route. It's not the extra power of the PS3 that I'm interested in, it is being able to install Linux and specifically gcc. From bookworm at cavenet.com Wed Dec 17 15:40:38 2008 From: bookworm at cavenet.com (BookWorm) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 20:40:38 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Coco] Random Radio Shack question References: <2ea10fi0f5p0qoy.171220081006@zaphod.tzo.com> Message-ID: As a collectors item, I wonder if there are any that would be harder to find than these cards. How many varieties were produced over the years? How long did RS use these cards? I thought I saw them in the 1990's, but that might have been something else. Speaking of collectors items, did RS or anyone else make computer trading cards in the 80's? From linville at tuxdriver.com Wed Dec 17 15:34:45 2008 From: linville at tuxdriver.com (John W. Linville) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 15:34:45 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Retro computing and what's worth it... In-Reply-To: <20081217203526.GG17074@warlock.deepthought.com> References: <1229486650.4077.23.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <49488069.7080304@iinet.net.au> <9efa17da0812162044o459645fxbc822b30d47dcfae@mail.gmail.com> <20081217133024.GA3510@tuxdriver.com> <20081217203526.GG17074@warlock.deepthought.com> Message-ID: <20081217203444.GC3516@tuxdriver.com> On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 02:35:26PM -0600, Frank Pittel wrote: > On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 08:30:25AM -0500, John W. Linville wrote: > > On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 10:44:48PM -0600, Sean wrote: > > > There was an official Sony release that allowed a PS2 to run Linux. > > > However, according to this Wikipedia entry it might be hard to find. > > > Personally I never pursued it. My PS2 was for games, and I had plenty > > > of PCs to run Linux on. And since I liked the games, I didn't want to > > > risk breaking it! > > > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_for_PlayStation_2 > > > > > > Modding a PS2 to accept other OSs is a totally different animal. I'd > > > just get the boy an old DOS box if you want him to learn how to use > > > command prompts. Too much modding is required to get a game system to > > > do the same stuff as an old PC. > > > > A PS3 is a much easier option for running Linux. You can install > > several different distributions from the standard install media, > > including Fedora, YellowDog and doubtless others. I find it to be > > a little slow, but it is usable. > > Wouldn't it be easier and possibly cheaper in the long run to go out and > buy a sub five hundred dollar computer and put linux on it? Considering that Sony sent me the PS3 for free? No. :-) Beyond that, YMMV. For example, someone that wanted a game console _anyway_ and also wanted to run Linux on _something_ may find this an ideal solution. It also isn't a bad option for someone that wants a (semi-)"big" PowerPC system for development purposes and doesn't want to keep an old Mac around. Or, maybe you need a Blu-Ray player...or maybe you have a really small apartment... :-) John -- John W. Linville Linux should be at the core linville at tuxdriver.com of your literate lifestyle. From wdg3rd at comcast.net Wed Dec 17 15:58:27 2008 From: wdg3rd at comcast.net (wdg3rd at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 20:58:27 +0000 Subject: [Coco] Random Radio Shack question Message-ID: <121720082058.2867.494967F30005C35000000B3322007348300B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> From: BookWorm > As a collectors item, I wonder if there are any that would be harder to find > than these cards. How many varieties were produced over the years? How long did > RS use these cards? I thought I saw them in the 1990's, but that might have > been something else. > > Speaking of collectors items, did RS or anyone else make computer trading cards > in the 80's? Radio Shack definitely didn't. Though some of the computer catalogs and comic books can be a bit hard to find. -- Ward Griffiths wdg3rd at comcast.net I thought about being diplomatic and polite. Honest, I really did. But while I was thinking about it, I accidentally bumped the button that puts my mouth on autopilot, because it said, "That's a load of crap, Captain, and you know it". Jim Butcher, _Small Favor_ From petrander at gmail.com Wed Dec 17 16:09:42 2008 From: petrander at gmail.com (Fedor Steeman) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 22:09:42 +0100 Subject: [Coco] Assembly help: Corrupted bin file ? In-Reply-To: <494924CB.4030107@worldnet.att.net> References: <494924CB.4030107@worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: Thanks Robert, you are being a great help! I must admit that I am going about this matter in a bit of a messy way. I have read and understood most of Barden's book amongst others, but since I never have the proper time to experiment with assembly I start forgetting even the most basic things again. Like most people, I learn best by doing. One of my problems has been a lack of a good assembler that I can move back and forth from whenever I find the time. The Portal-9 and RainbowIDE products are perfect for this, but for some reason I have never properly got them to work. The code fragment you are looking at actually is taken out of a CoCo program that I ran through a disassembler in order to analyse. What I am doing now is just running the CASM assembler on a command prompt while editing the source file in a text editor. Since I have VCC installed I can simply double-click the bin-file and it is automatically mounted in the emulator. This works fine with the bubblesort program provided in RainbowIDE. So I am not using a virtual diskette as a go-between but have the machine code directly written in the emulated memory and executed. I now made the necessary changes to the source code I showed you and it is mounted without problems! The program is executed in VCC and shows a pmode 4 screen with vertical stripes as expected. However, the stripes aren't as narrow as I expect them to be. Using $AAAA which translates to binary 1010 1010 1010 1010, I would expect pixel-wide alternating black and white vertical lines. What I am getting, though, are much broader vertical black bars interrupted by paired vertical stripes. Any explanation for that? Cheers, Fedor 2008/12/17 Robert Gault > Fedor, > > There could be several things wrong here depending on how you tried to use > this with VCC. There is also a problem with the source regards CCASM or any > of the assemblers that are used with a Coco. > > It would help to know how you tried to use this with VCC. > > Comments are inserted below. > > "Fedor Steeman" a ?crit dans le message de news: >> dcc956220812162330t4b8be888je63b60fd6321d19f at mail.gmail.com... >> >>> Hello everyone, >>> >>> I am still trying to learn assembly language but keep on running into >>> problems. >>> >>> I have been trying to have the following source code assembled: >>> >>> VIDRAM EQU $0400 *Start of Video Display location >>> V0CLR EQU $FFC0 *Clear bit for Sam Chip (Graphics mode) >>> V1SET EQU $FFC3 *Set V1 bit in Sam Chip (Graphics mode) >>> V2SET EQU $FFC5 *set V2 bit in Sam Chip (Graphics mode) >>> VOFSET EQU $FFC6 *Display Offset Binary, This is the CLR Bit >>> (Video page offset) >>> VDGSET EQU $FF22 *PIA1 data port B: VDG Control output >>> POLCAT EQU $A000 *Color Basic rom poll keyboard routine >>> >>> ORG $21FD >>> LDX #VIDRAM *331D: 8E 04 00 >>> >> > This next can't be what you wanted. Almost certainly you intended to store > the value $AAAA into memory. That means the next line should be changed to > LDD #$AAAA > > LDD $AAAA *3320: CC AA AA >>> Z3323 STD ,X++ *3323: ED 81 >>> CMPX #$1C00 *3325: 8C 1C 00 >>> BCS Z3323 *3328: 25 F9 >>> >> > There is no reason for the next line. It is not required for a timing issue > and certainly was not used to block out previous code. :) > > NOP *332A: 12 >>> PMODE4 STA V0CLR *2787: B7 FF C0 >>> STA V1SET *278A: B7 FF C3 >>> STA V2SET *278D: B7 FF C5 >>> LDA #$F8 *2790: 86 F8 >>> STA VDGSET *2792: B7 FF 22 >>> STA VOFSET *2795: B7 FF C6 >>> >> > The next two lines have two problems, one already mentioned by another > reader is the keyboard is only checked once so any key press is likely to be > missed. The other is the use of JSR then RTS. Since the JSR already has an > RTS at its end, that results in RTS RTS which is a waste of space and time. > There are several ways of changing the code depending on whether you need > the value of the key pressed or are just waiting for any key to be pressed. > I prefer in the latter case to just use the Disk Basic code and JSR $ADFB. > In your code example, it would just be JMP $ADFB. > However, assuming you might want the value of the pressed key and using the > example of POLCAT, the lines should be > > L1 JSR [POLCAT] > BEQ L1 > do something with the key value > RTS > > JSR [POLCAT] *332E: AD 9F A0 00 >>> RTS *3332: >>> >> > This needs and END statement and if you intended to LOADM the code it also > needs a reference to the execution address. The following changes are > needed. > > >> ORG $21FD > >> Start LDX #VIDRAM *331D: 8E 04 00 > .... > >> JSR [POLCAT] *332E: AD 9F A0 00 > >> RTS *3332: > END Start > >> >>> Using Roger Taylor's CCASM (as included in RainbowIDE) I get the >>> following >>> binary file: >>> >>> The origin of the code is shown below (the 2421) but the length of the > sequence is zero (the first two 00 00). CCASM did not know how long your > program should be. Also you may not have selected the correct Object Output > in RainbowIDE. > > 00 00 24 21 FD 8E 04 00 FC AA AA ED 81 8C 1C 00 >>> 25 F9 12 B7 FF C0 B7 FF C3 B7 FF C5 86 F8 B7 FF >>> 22 B7 FF C6 AD 9F A0 00 39 >>> >> > As mentioned by another reader, there is no footer to this code to be used > by LOADM. > > >>> When I try to run this binary file using the VCC emulator I get an error >>> message stating that the binary file is corrupt. >>> >>> Can anyone help me try to understand whether there is anything wrong with >>> my >>> source code, the assembler (i.e. the resulting binary file) or the >>> emulator? >>> >>> Thanks in advance! >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Fedor >>> >> > You probably should indicate exactly how you asked RainbowIDE to compile > your code because there might be something wrong at that end of the process. > > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > From sklammer at gmail.com Wed Dec 17 16:37:28 2008 From: sklammer at gmail.com (Shain Klammer) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 16:37:28 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Random Radio Shack question In-Reply-To: <121720082058.2867.494967F30005C35000000B3322007348300B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> References: <121720082058.2867.494967F30005C35000000B3322007348300B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> Message-ID: <3925f0b0812171337k51cfdbf6l4d5d5262141fa640@mail.gmail.com> I honestly like the idea of "Computer Trading Cards"; however, I'm not sure if anyone would become a millionaire by marketing them ;) sk 2008/12/17 > From: BookWorm > > As a collectors item, I wonder if there are any that would be harder to > find > > than these cards. How many varieties were produced over the years? How > long did > > RS use these cards? I thought I saw them in the 1990's, but that might > have > > been something else. > > > > Speaking of collectors items, did RS or anyone else make computer trading > cards > > in the 80's? > > Radio Shack definitely didn't. Though some of the computer catalogs and > comic books can be a bit hard to find. > -- > Ward Griffiths wdg3rd at comcast.net > > I thought about being diplomatic and polite. Honest, I really did. But > while I was thinking about it, I accidentally bumped the button that puts my > mouth on autopilot, because it said, "That's a load of crap, Captain, and > you know it". Jim Butcher, _Small Favor_ > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > From msmcdoug at iinet.net.au Wed Dec 17 16:39:00 2008 From: msmcdoug at iinet.net.au (Mark McDougall) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 08:39:00 +1100 Subject: [Coco] Retro computing and what's worth it... In-Reply-To: <20081217133024.GA3510@tuxdriver.com> References: <1229486650.4077.23.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <49488069.7080304@iinet.net.au> <9efa17da0812162044o459645fxbc822b30d47dcfae@mail.gmail.com> <20081217133024.GA3510@tuxdriver.com> Message-ID: <49497174.3030905@iinet.net.au> John W. Linville wrote: > A PS3 is a much easier option for running Linux. You can install > several different distributions from the standard install media, > including Fedora, YellowDog and doubtless others. I find it to be > a little slow, but it is usable. I too received a free PS3 with my Bravia, and use it exclusively as a network media tank using the stock firmware. Which disto did you go with, and what do you use it for? Anything practical or just for playing around with? Regards, -- | Mark McDougall | "Electrical Engineers do it | | with less resistance!" From t.fadden at cox.net Wed Dec 17 16:41:46 2008 From: t.fadden at cox.net (Tim Fadden) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 14:41:46 -0700 Subject: [Coco] Retro computing and what's worth it... In-Reply-To: <1229544537.7838.40.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> References: <1229486650.4077.23.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <49488069.7080304@iinet.net.au> <9efa17da0812162044o459645fxbc822b30d47dcfae@mail.gmail.com> <20081217133024.GA3510@tuxdriver.com> <20081217203526.GG17074@warlock.deepthought.com> <1229544537.7838.40.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> Message-ID: <4949721A.6010504@cox.net> Michael Robinson wrote: > On Wed, 2008-12-17 at 14:35 -0600, Frank Pittel wrote: > >> On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 08:30:25AM -0500, John W. Linville wrote: >> >>> On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 10:44:48PM -0600, Sean wrote: >>> >>>> There was an official Sony release that allowed a PS2 to run Linux. >>>> However, according to this Wikipedia entry it might be hard to find. >>>> Personally I never pursued it. My PS2 was for games, and I had plenty >>>> of PCs to run Linux on. And since I liked the games, I didn't want to >>>> risk breaking it! >>>> >>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_for_PlayStation_2 >>>> >>>> Modding a PS2 to accept other OSs is a totally different animal. I'd >>>> just get the boy an old DOS box if you want him to learn how to use >>>> command prompts. Too much modding is required to get a game system to >>>> do the same stuff as an old PC. >>>> >>> A PS3 is a much easier option for running Linux. You can install >>> several different distributions from the standard install media, >>> including Fedora, YellowDog and doubtless others. I find it to be >>> a little slow, but it is usable. >>> >> Wouldn't it be easier and possibly cheaper in the long run to go out and >> buy a sub five hundred dollar computer and put linux on it? >> >> -- >> Coco mailing list >> Coco at maltedmedia.com >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco >> > > This has been a frustrating journey that has gone from buy him a > COCO 3 to a Playstation II to... the problem being that I don't > want to spend much beyond $50 for a Christmas present. I find > laptops on ebay that should be in range price wise, but people > bid them up. If a Playstation III wasn't so expensive, I'd go > that route. It's not the extra power of the PS3 that I'm > interested in, it is being able to install Linux and specifically > gcc. > > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > > > Unfortunately $50 doesn't get to far now days! A good up-to-date computer programing book will cost $50 or more. Let alone the hardware to use it on. Back when I bought my first coco3 for around $200. I thought about it for several weeks and saved up longer to buy it! That was a lot of money to me; compared to what I was making. Now I drop $200 like it was nothing! Oh well so much for the old days! Tim fadden From petrander at gmail.com Wed Dec 17 16:42:48 2008 From: petrander at gmail.com (Fedor Steeman) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 22:42:48 +0100 Subject: [Coco] Assembly help: Corrupted bin file ? In-Reply-To: References: <494924CB.4030107@worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: Hi, I discovered it was just a typo! All is now working as expected and I look forward to experimenting some more! :-) Thanks for all the help, guys! Cheers, Fedor 2008/12/17 Fedor Steeman > Thanks Robert, you are being a great help! > > I must admit that I am going about this matter in a bit of a messy way. I > have read and understood most of Barden's book amongst others, but since I > never have the proper time to experiment with assembly I start forgetting > even the most basic things again. Like most people, I learn best by doing. > One of my problems has been a lack of a good assembler that I can move back > and forth from whenever I find the time. The Portal-9 and RainbowIDE > products are perfect for this, but for some reason I have never properly got > them to work. The code fragment you are looking at actually is taken out of > a CoCo program that I ran through a disassembler in order to analyse. > > What I am doing now is just running the CASM assembler on a command prompt > while editing the source file in a text editor. Since I have VCC installed I > can simply double-click the bin-file and it is automatically mounted in the > emulator. This works fine with the bubblesort program provided in > RainbowIDE. So I am not using a virtual diskette as a go-between but have > the machine code directly written in the emulated memory and executed. > > I now made the necessary changes to the source code I showed you and it is > mounted without problems! The program is executed in VCC and shows a pmode 4 > screen with vertical stripes as expected. However, the stripes aren't as > narrow as I expect them to be. Using $AAAA which translates to binary 1010 > 1010 1010 1010, I would expect pixel-wide alternating black and white > vertical lines. What I am getting, though, are much broader vertical black > bars interrupted by paired vertical stripes. Any explanation for that? > > Cheers, > > Fedor > > 2008/12/17 Robert Gault > > Fedor, >> >> There could be several things wrong here depending on how you tried to use >> this with VCC. There is also a problem with the source regards CCASM or any >> of the assemblers that are used with a Coco. >> >> It would help to know how you tried to use this with VCC. >> >> Comments are inserted below. >> >> "Fedor Steeman" a ?crit dans le message de news: >>> dcc956220812162330t4b8be888je63b60fd6321d19f at mail.gmail.com... >>> >>>> Hello everyone, >>>> >>>> I am still trying to learn assembly language but keep on running into >>>> problems. >>>> >>>> I have been trying to have the following source code assembled: >>>> >>>> VIDRAM EQU $0400 *Start of Video Display location >>>> V0CLR EQU $FFC0 *Clear bit for Sam Chip (Graphics mode) >>>> V1SET EQU $FFC3 *Set V1 bit in Sam Chip (Graphics mode) >>>> V2SET EQU $FFC5 *set V2 bit in Sam Chip (Graphics mode) >>>> VOFSET EQU $FFC6 *Display Offset Binary, This is the CLR Bit >>>> (Video page offset) >>>> VDGSET EQU $FF22 *PIA1 data port B: VDG Control output >>>> POLCAT EQU $A000 *Color Basic rom poll keyboard routine >>>> >>>> ORG $21FD >>>> LDX #VIDRAM *331D: 8E 04 00 >>>> >>> >> This next can't be what you wanted. Almost certainly you intended to store >> the value $AAAA into memory. That means the next line should be changed to >> LDD #$AAAA >> >> LDD $AAAA *3320: CC AA AA >>>> Z3323 STD ,X++ *3323: ED 81 >>>> CMPX #$1C00 *3325: 8C 1C 00 >>>> BCS Z3323 *3328: 25 F9 >>>> >>> >> There is no reason for the next line. It is not required for a timing >> issue and certainly was not used to block out previous code. :) >> >> NOP *332A: 12 >>>> PMODE4 STA V0CLR *2787: B7 FF C0 >>>> STA V1SET *278A: B7 FF C3 >>>> STA V2SET *278D: B7 FF C5 >>>> LDA #$F8 *2790: 86 F8 >>>> STA VDGSET *2792: B7 FF 22 >>>> STA VOFSET *2795: B7 FF C6 >>>> >>> >> The next two lines have two problems, one already mentioned by another >> reader is the keyboard is only checked once so any key press is likely to be >> missed. The other is the use of JSR then RTS. Since the JSR already has an >> RTS at its end, that results in RTS RTS which is a waste of space and time. >> There are several ways of changing the code depending on whether you need >> the value of the key pressed or are just waiting for any key to be pressed. >> I prefer in the latter case to just use the Disk Basic code and JSR $ADFB. >> In your code example, it would just be JMP $ADFB. >> However, assuming you might want the value of the pressed key and using >> the example of POLCAT, the lines should be >> >> L1 JSR [POLCAT] >> BEQ L1 >> do something with the key value >> RTS >> >> JSR [POLCAT] *332E: AD 9F A0 00 >>>> RTS *3332: >>>> >>> >> This needs and END statement and if you intended to LOADM the code it also >> needs a reference to the execution address. The following changes are >> needed. >> >> >> ORG $21FD >> >> Start LDX #VIDRAM *331D: 8E 04 00 >> .... >> >> JSR [POLCAT] *332E: AD 9F A0 00 >> >> RTS *3332: >> END Start >> >>> >>>> Using Roger Taylor's CCASM (as included in RainbowIDE) I get the >>>> following >>>> binary file: >>>> >>>> The origin of the code is shown below (the 2421) but the length of the >> sequence is zero (the first two 00 00). CCASM did not know how long your >> program should be. Also you may not have selected the correct Object Output >> in RainbowIDE. >> >> 00 00 24 21 FD 8E 04 00 FC AA AA ED 81 8C 1C 00 >>>> 25 F9 12 B7 FF C0 B7 FF C3 B7 FF C5 86 F8 B7 FF >>>> 22 B7 FF C6 AD 9F A0 00 39 >>>> >>> >> As mentioned by another reader, there is no footer to this code to be used >> by LOADM. >> >> >>>> When I try to run this binary file using the VCC emulator I get an error >>>> message stating that the binary file is corrupt. >>>> >>>> Can anyone help me try to understand whether there is anything wrong >>>> with my >>>> source code, the assembler (i.e. the resulting binary file) or the >>>> emulator? >>>> >>>> Thanks in advance! >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Fedor >>>> >>> >> You probably should indicate exactly how you asked RainbowIDE to compile >> your code because there might be something wrong at that end of the process. >> >> >> -- >> Coco mailing list >> Coco at maltedmedia.com >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco >> > > From linville at tuxdriver.com Wed Dec 17 16:51:53 2008 From: linville at tuxdriver.com (John W. Linville) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 16:51:53 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Retro computing and what's worth it... In-Reply-To: <49497174.3030905@iinet.net.au> References: <1229486650.4077.23.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> <49488069.7080304@iinet.net.au> <9efa17da0812162044o459645fxbc822b30d47dcfae@mail.gmail.com> <20081217133024.GA3510@tuxdriver.com> <49497174.3030905@iinet.net.au> Message-ID: <20081217215152.GD3516@tuxdriver.com> On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 08:39:00AM +1100, Mark McDougall wrote: > John W. Linville wrote: > >> A PS3 is a much easier option for running Linux. You can install >> several different distributions from the standard install media, >> including Fedora, YellowDog and doubtless others. I find it to be >> a little slow, but it is usable. > > I too received a free PS3 with my Bravia, and use it exclusively as a > network media tank using the stock firmware. > > Which disto did you go with, and what do you use it for? Anything > practical or just for playing around with? I have Fedora 9 on it. (Hmmm...time to upgrade I guess...) I use it for 64-bit compile and runtime checking, big-endian testing for USB wireless drivers, and specifically for support of the ps3_gelic_wireless driver. I also use it as a native platform for PowerPC projects that are problematic for cross development. Of course, my needs are a bit specialized... :-) John -- John W. Linville Linux should be at the core linville at tuxdriver.com of your literate lifestyle. From robert.gault at worldnet.att.net Wed Dec 17 17:29:23 2008 From: robert.gault at worldnet.att.net (Robert Gault) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 17:29:23 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Assembly help: Corrupted bin file ? In-Reply-To: References: <494924CB.4030107@worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: <49497D43.8070609@worldnet.att.net> Fedor Steeman wrote: > Thanks Robert, you are being a great help! > > I must admit that I am going about this matter in a bit of a messy way. I > have read and understood most of Barden's book amongst others, but since I > never have the proper time to experiment with assembly I start forgetting > even the most basic things again. Like most people, I learn best by doing. > One of my problems has been a lack of a good assembler that I can move back > and forth from whenever I find the time. The Portal-9 and RainbowIDE > products are perfect for this, but for some reason I have never properly got > them to work. The code fragment you are looking at actually is taken out of > a CoCo program that I ran through a disassembler in order to analyse. > > What I am doing now is just running the CASM assembler on a command prompt > while editing the source file in a text editor. Since I have VCC installed I > can simply double-click the bin-file and it is automatically mounted in the > emulator. This works fine with the bubblesort program provided in > RainbowIDE. So I am not using a virtual diskette as a go-between but have > the machine code directly written in the emulated memory and executed. > Hmm, that (double clicking on a .bin file) has stopped working for me. Guess I'll have to reinstall VCC. > I now made the necessary changes to the source code I showed you and it is > mounted without problems! The program is executed in VCC and shows a pmode 4 > screen with vertical stripes as expected. However, the stripes aren't as > narrow as I expect them to be. Using $AAAA which translates to binary 1010 > 1010 1010 1010, I would expect pixel-wide alternating black and white > vertical lines. What I am getting, though, are much broader vertical black > bars interrupted by paired vertical stripes. Any explanation for that? > > Cheers, > > Fedor > I've mounted the program on a disk and used LOADM and EXEC to run it. It does exactly what you asked it to although that might not be what you really want. The first thing I see is the PMODE4 screen with alternate black and white vertical lines. I also see a short horizontal black line in the upper left quadrant. That is undoubtedly the result of your choice for the location of the PMODE4 screen at $400. That is not a good location for a PMODE4 screen because you overlap part of the disk operating system in low RAM. $400 is the location of the low res text screen from $400-$5FF. The PMODE4 screen should start at $E00 or higher on a disk system. The first key press results in a low res text screen filled with vertical blue and black lines with the exception of the last two horizontal lines which are default green with OK on the second to last line. This is also expected because you put graphics data on the text screen. You should change your code as follows: VIDRAM EQU $E00 VOFS1 EQU $FFC7 VOFS2 EQU $FFC9 VOFS3 EQU $FFCB Change the program origin to: ORG $7000 CMPX #$1C00 replace with CMPX #VIDRAM+$1800 STA VOFSET replace with STA VOFS1 STA VOFS2 STA VOFS3 See how the program works after the above changes. From skwirl42 at gmail.com Wed Dec 17 17:30:52 2008 From: skwirl42 at gmail.com (James Dessart) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 18:30:52 -0400 Subject: [Coco] Random Radio Shack question In-Reply-To: <3925f0b0812171337k51cfdbf6l4d5d5262141fa640@mail.gmail.com> References: <121720082058.2867.494967F30005C35000000B3322007348300B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> <3925f0b0812171337k51cfdbf6l4d5d5262141fa640@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4c56cbd30812171430q1674f7c6t580498cb5f7899ac@mail.gmail.com> On 12/17/08, Shain Klammer wrote: > I honestly like the idea of "Computer Trading Cards"; however, I'm not sure > if anyone would become a millionaire by marketing them ;) "I'll trade you my Cray X-MP for your ENIAC!" "No way, man, but you can have my LEO instead!" -- James Dessart From operator at coco3.com Wed Dec 17 18:08:37 2008 From: operator at coco3.com (Roger Taylor) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 17:08:37 -0600 Subject: [Coco] Assembly help: Corrupted bin file ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20081217230854.5FE6F20A14@qs281.pair.com> At 01:30 AM 12/17/2008, you wrote: >Hello everyone, > >I am still trying to learn assembly language but keep on running into >problems. > >I have been trying to have the following source code assembled: > >VIDRAM EQU $0400 *Start of Video Display location >V0CLR EQU $FFC0 *Clear bit for Sam Chip (Graphics mode) >V1SET EQU $FFC3 *Set V1 bit in Sam Chip (Graphics mode) >V2SET EQU $FFC5 *set V2 bit in Sam Chip (Graphics mode) >VOFSET EQU $FFC6 *Display Offset Binary, This is the CLR Bit >(Video page offset) >VDGSET EQU $FF22 *PIA1 data port B: VDG Control output >POLCAT EQU $A000 *Color Basic rom poll keyboard routine > > ORG $21FD > LDX #VIDRAM *331D: 8E 04 00 > LDD $AAAA *3320: CC AA AA >Z3323 STD ,X++ *3323: ED 81 > CMPX #$1C00 *3325: 8C 1C 00 > BCS Z3323 *3328: 25 F9 > NOP *332A: 12 >PMODE4 STA V0CLR *2787: B7 FF C0 > STA V1SET *278A: B7 FF C3 > STA V2SET *278D: B7 FF C5 > LDA #$F8 *2790: 86 F8 > STA VDGSET *2792: B7 FF 22 > STA VOFSET *2795: B7 FF C6 > JSR [POLCAT] *332E: AD 9F A0 00 > RTS *3332: > >Using Roger Taylor's CCASM (as included in RainbowIDE) I get the following >binary file: > >00 00 24 21 FD 8E 04 00 FC AA AA ED 81 8C 1C 00 >25 F9 12 B7 FF C0 B7 FF C3 B7 FF C5 86 F8 B7 FF >22 B7 FF C6 AD 9F A0 00 39 > >When I try to run this binary file using the VCC emulator I get an error >message stating that the binary file is corrupt. The idea is to make a Multi-Record (or Multi-Segment) binary file that the CoCo can LOADM. Depending on what version of CCASM you have, try: cm source.asm -loadm -o=object.bin If -loadm gives an error, try -mr, -multi, or -ml. Different revisions of CCASM could use slightly different switch names here and there. -- Roger Taylor http://www.wordofthedayonline.com From operator at coco3.com Wed Dec 17 18:17:41 2008 From: operator at coco3.com (Roger Taylor) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 17:17:41 -0600 Subject: [Coco] Assembly help: Corrupted bin file ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20081217233528.4B55120A14@qs281.pair.com> At 01:30 AM 12/17/2008, you wrote: >Hello everyone, > >I am still trying to learn assembly language but keep on running into >problems. > >I have been trying to have the following source code assembled: > >VIDRAM EQU $0400 *Start of Video Display location >V0CLR EQU $FFC0 *Clear bit for Sam Chip (Graphics mode) >V1SET EQU $FFC3 *Set V1 bit in Sam Chip (Graphics mode) >V2SET EQU $FFC5 *set V2 bit in Sam Chip (Graphics mode) >VOFSET EQU $FFC6 *Display Offset Binary, This is the CLR Bit >(Video page offset) >VDGSET EQU $FF22 *PIA1 data port B: VDG Control output >POLCAT EQU $A000 *Color Basic rom poll keyboard routine > > ORG $21FD > LDX #VIDRAM *331D: 8E 04 00 > LDD $AAAA *3320: CC AA AA >Z3323 STD ,X++ *3323: ED 81 > CMPX #$1C00 *3325: 8C 1C 00 > BCS Z3323 *3328: 25 F9 > NOP *332A: 12 >PMODE4 STA V0CLR *2787: B7 FF C0 > STA V1SET *278A: B7 FF C3 > STA V2SET *278D: B7 FF C5 > LDA #$F8 *2790: 86 F8 > STA VDGSET *2792: B7 FF 22 > STA VOFSET *2795: B7 FF C6 > JSR [POLCAT] *332E: AD 9F A0 00 > RTS *3332: The source code above is missing two things: the label of the starting line/address try: EXEC LDX #VIDRAM and the LOADM/EXEC finalizer is missing the last line of the source code should be: END EXEC Now when you LOADM the program from BASIC, all you have to do is type EXEC No address is needed as in EXEC #####. If you just used END without an address, you'd have to type EXEC $21FD from BASIC to run the program. -- Roger Taylor http://www.wordofthedayonline.com From boisy at tee-boy.com Wed Dec 17 19:20:39 2008 From: boisy at tee-boy.com (Boisy Pitre) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 18:20:39 -0600 Subject: [Coco] C source code for CoCo C cross compiler Message-ID: <546401BB-A296-472E-8155-BBE42017BE13@tee-boy.com> All, I have placed the source code for a disassembled version of the CoCo C cross compiler up on ftp.maltedmedia.com's incoming folder. The name is Csources.zip. Someone anonymously sent me a CD with these sources, so I'm making them available to the community. Regards, Boisy G. Pitre -- Tee-Boy Mobile: 337.781.3570 Email: boisy at tee-boy.com Web: http://www.tee-boy.com From skwirl42 at gmail.com Wed Dec 17 20:49:42 2008 From: skwirl42 at gmail.com (James Dessart) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 21:49:42 -0400 Subject: [Coco] C source code for CoCo C cross compiler In-Reply-To: <546401BB-A296-472E-8155-BBE42017BE13@tee-boy.com> References: <546401BB-A296-472E-8155-BBE42017BE13@tee-boy.com> Message-ID: <4c56cbd30812171749y245f6a02x5ade7357501a62f6@mail.gmail.com> On 12/17/08, Boisy Pitre wrote: > I have placed the source code for a disassembled version of the CoCo C > cross compiler up on ftp.maltedmedia.com's incoming folder. The name is > Csources.zip. Someone anonymously sent me a CD with these sources, so I'm > making them available to the community. Which C compiler, though? Is it one that was available commercially back-in-the-day? -- James Dessart From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Dec 17 21:35:01 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 21:35:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Coco] C source code for CoCo C cross compiler In-Reply-To: <546401BB-A296-472E-8155-BBE42017BE13@tee-boy.com> References: <546401BB-A296-472E-8155-BBE42017BE13@tee-boy.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Dec 2008, Boisy Pitre wrote: > All, > > I have placed the source code for a disassembled version of the CoCo C cross > compiler up on ftp.maltedmedia.com's incoming folder. The name is > Csources.zip. Someone anonymously sent me a CD with these sources, so I'm > making them available to the community. Thanks, Boisy. FYI: Files cannot be directly downloaded from the incoming area. I guess we'll have to wait until it gets moved. Is that a Windows hosted compiler for 6809 code? Is it particular to OS-9? Steve -- From cyberpunk at prtc.net Wed Dec 17 22:21:29 2008 From: cyberpunk at prtc.net (RJLCyberPunk) Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2008 23:21:29 -0400 Subject: [Coco] The next or future CoCo project what should a 21st century CoCo be really like? References: <1229486650.4077.23.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com><49488069.7080304@iinet.net.au><9efa17da0812162044o459645fxbc822b30d47dcfae@mail.gmail.com><20081217133024.GA3510@tuxdriver.com><20081217203526.GG17074@warlock.deepthought.com> <20081217203444.GC3516@tuxdriver.com> Message-ID: I have seen emails and even a whole forum back at the CoCo supersite about either a virtual CoCo4 or a CoCo5 and so on but in reality is not about a a number but it should be as to whether or not can a next generation CoCo that fits the bill for today's age can even be doable? This are the general things it would need: 1. Marketability - This is by far one of the most important factors of any system. It has to offer stuff and things people today would be interested in and at the same time keep compatibility with it's predecessors which given the tremenous time gap is not an easy task by any stretch of the imagination. 2 . Compatiility - Another important and diffiicult to achieve objective given the long time passed between what would be a current system and an antiquated and obsolete one by today's standards. 3. Use of Standard easy to find/buy hardware - Tbe use of standard hardware used for PCs, Macs to keep costs down would also be essential. That's just off the top of my head but any succesful computer system today would need what is stated previously. From fwp at deepthought.com Thu Dec 18 01:03:39 2008 From: fwp at deepthought.com (Frank Pittel) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 00:03:39 -0600 Subject: [Coco] C source code for CoCo C cross compiler In-Reply-To: <546401BB-A296-472E-8155-BBE42017BE13@tee-boy.com> References: <546401BB-A296-472E-8155-BBE42017BE13@tee-boy.com> Message-ID: <20081218060339.GH17074@warlock.deepthought.com> Thank you. On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 06:20:39PM -0600, Boisy Pitre wrote: > All, > > I have placed the source code for a disassembled version of the CoCo C > cross compiler up on ftp.maltedmedia.com's incoming folder. The name is > Csources.zip. Someone anonymously sent me a CD with these sources, so > I'm making them available to the community. > > Regards, > Boisy G. Pitre > -- > Tee-Boy > Mobile: 337.781.3570 > Email: boisy at tee-boy.com > Web: http://www.tee-boy.com > > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco From petrander at gmail.com Thu Dec 18 02:35:46 2008 From: petrander at gmail.com (Fedor Steeman) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 08:35:46 +0100 Subject: [Coco] Assembly help: Corrupted bin file ? In-Reply-To: <20081217233528.4B55120A14@qs281.pair.com> References: <20081217233528.4B55120A14@qs281.pair.com> Message-ID: Thanks Roger. So, how do I code a multi-segment source file in assembly? Do I just use multiple origin statements? Like: ORG $2000 START NOP NOP END START ORG $7000 STRT2 NOP NOP END STRT2 Cheers, Fedor 2008/12/18 Roger Taylor > At 01:30 AM 12/17/2008, you wrote: > >> Hello everyone, >> >> I am still trying to learn assembly language but keep on running into >> problems. >> >> I have been trying to have the following source code assembled: >> >> VIDRAM EQU $0400 *Start of Video Display location >> V0CLR EQU $FFC0 *Clear bit for Sam Chip (Graphics mode) >> V1SET EQU $FFC3 *Set V1 bit in Sam Chip (Graphics mode) >> V2SET EQU $FFC5 *set V2 bit in Sam Chip (Graphics mode) >> VOFSET EQU $FFC6 *Display Offset Binary, This is the CLR Bit >> (Video page offset) >> VDGSET EQU $FF22 *PIA1 data port B: VDG Control output >> POLCAT EQU $A000 *Color Basic rom poll keyboard routine >> >> ORG $21FD >> LDX #VIDRAM *331D: 8E 04 00 >> LDD $AAAA *3320: CC AA AA >> Z3323 STD ,X++ *3323: ED 81 >> CMPX #$1C00 *3325: 8C 1C 00 >> BCS Z3323 *3328: 25 F9 >> NOP *332A: 12 >> PMODE4 STA V0CLR *2787: B7 FF C0 >> STA V1SET *278A: B7 FF C3 >> STA V2SET *278D: B7 FF C5 >> LDA #$F8 *2790: 86 F8 >> STA VDGSET *2792: B7 FF 22 >> STA VOFSET *2795: B7 FF C6 >> JSR [POLCAT] *332E: AD 9F A0 00 >> RTS *3332: >> > > > The source code above is missing two things: > the label of the starting line/address > > try: > EXEC LDX #VIDRAM > > and the LOADM/EXEC finalizer is missing > the last line of the source code should be: > > END EXEC > > Now when you LOADM the program from BASIC, all you have to do is type EXEC > No address is needed as in EXEC #####. > If you just used END without an address, you'd have to type EXEC $21FD from > BASIC to run the program. > > > > -- > Roger Taylor > > http://www.wordofthedayonline.com > > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > From petrander at gmail.com Thu Dec 18 03:32:04 2008 From: petrander at gmail.com (Fedor Steeman) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 09:32:04 +0100 Subject: [Coco] Assembly help: Corrupted bin file ? In-Reply-To: <49497D43.8070609@worldnet.att.net> References: <494924CB.4030107@worldnet.att.net> <49497D43.8070609@worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: Hi Robert, Thanks! I tried your suggestions and they give me what I want. I have been trying to figure exactly what these extra lines do. STA $FFC7 STA $FFC9 STA $FFCB I have found an awesome hardware reference on the internet by Chris Lomont ( http://www.lomont.org/Software/Misc/CoCo/Lomont_CoCoHardware.pdf) that helped a bit, but not quite yet. This is what it says: ffc6/ffc7 SAM Display Offset bit F0 ffc8/ffc9 SAM Display Offset bit F1 ffca/ffcb SAM Display Offset bit F2 What exactly is meant with offset and why must it be set three places? Thanks for any hints. I am aware that I must strik you all as a bit clueless. :-) Cheers, Fedor I've mounted the program on a disk and used LOADM and EXEC to run it. It > does exactly what you asked it to although that might not be what you really > want. > The first thing I see is the PMODE4 screen with alternate black and white > vertical lines. I also see a short horizontal black line in the upper left > quadrant. That is undoubtedly the result of your choice for the location of > the PMODE4 screen at $400. > That is not a good location for a PMODE4 screen because you overlap part of > the disk operating system in low RAM. $400 is the location of the low res > text screen from $400-$5FF. The PMODE4 screen should start at $E00 or higher > on a disk system. > The first key press results in a low res text screen filled with vertical > blue and black lines with the exception of the last two horizontal lines > which are default green with OK on the second to last line. > This is also expected because you put graphics data on the text screen. > > You should change your code as follows: > VIDRAM EQU $E00 > VOFS1 EQU $FFC7 > VOFS2 EQU $FFC9 > VOFS3 EQU $FFCB > > Change the program origin to: > ORG $7000 > > CMPX #$1C00 replace with > CMPX #VIDRAM+$1800 > > STA VOFSET replace with > STA VOFS1 > STA VOFS2 > STA VOFS3 > > See how the program works after the above changes. > > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > From cocomalt at 6809.org.uk Thu Dec 18 06:35:33 2008 From: cocomalt at 6809.org.uk (Ciaran Anscomb) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 11:35:33 +0000 Subject: [Coco] Assembly help: Corrupted bin file ? In-Reply-To: References: <494924CB.4030107@worldnet.att.net> <49497D43.8070609@worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: <6024.1229600133@torch.6809.org.uk> "Fedor Steeman" wrote: > > ffc6/ffc7 SAM Display Offset bit F0 > ffc8/ffc9 SAM Display Offset bit F1 > ffca/ffcb SAM Display Offset bit F2 > > What exactly is meant with offset and why must it be set three places? > Thanks for any hints. I am aware that I must strik you all as a bit > clueless. :-) You're adjusting the display offset in the SAM's configuration register. Because the SAM isn't connected to the data bus, it doesn't get to see any value you write, just that you wrote to a particular place, so there's a big block of special addresses it knows about that sets and resets individual bits in the register. In this case, you're adjusting the part of the register that controls the display offset, setting bits 0-2 which (assuming the rest are cleared) results in 7. This multiplied by 512 leads to a video display offset of 3584, or $0E00. ..ciaran -- Ciaran Anscomb, Perl/C Hacker From daveekelly1 at embarqmail.com Thu Dec 18 11:53:13 2008 From: daveekelly1 at embarqmail.com (Dave Kelly) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 10:53:13 -0600 Subject: [Coco] C source code for CoCo C cross compiler In-Reply-To: <20081218060339.GH17074@warlock.deepthought.com> References: <546401BB-A296-472E-8155-BBE42017BE13@tee-boy.com> <20081218060339.GH17074@warlock.deepthought.com> Message-ID: <494A7FF9.2010809@embarqmail.com> > On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 06:20:39PM -0600, Boisy Pitre wrote: >> All, >> >> I have placed the source code for a disassembled version of the CoCo C >> cross compiler up on ftp.maltedmedia.com's incoming folder. The name is >> Csources.zip. Someone anonymously sent me a CD with these sources, so >> I'm making them available to the community. >> >> Regards, >> Boisy G. Pitre Is this available for download yet? From boisy at tee-boy.com Thu Dec 18 13:03:18 2008 From: boisy at tee-boy.com (Boisy Pitre) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 12:03:18 -0600 Subject: [Coco] C source code for CoCo C cross compiler In-Reply-To: References: <546401BB-A296-472E-8155-BBE42017BE13@tee-boy.com> Message-ID: Sure thing. It supposedly is compilable under Linux and is a reverse engineered disassembly of all components of the Microware 6809 C compiler for OS-9. I haven't used it or even looked at it, but the source is all there. Have fun! On Dec 17, 2008, at 8:35 PM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Wed, 17 Dec 2008, Boisy Pitre wrote: > >> All, >> >> I have placed the source code for a disassembled version of the >> CoCo C cross compiler up on ftp.maltedmedia.com's incoming folder. >> The name is Csources.zip. Someone anonymously sent me a CD with >> these sources, so I'm making them available to the community. > > Thanks, Boisy. FYI: Files cannot be directly downloaded from the > incoming area. I guess we'll have to wait until it gets moved. > > Is that a Windows hosted compiler for 6809 code? Is it particular > to OS-9? > > Steve > > > -- > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco Regards, Boisy G. Pitre -- Tee-Boy Mobile: 337.781.3570 Email: boisy at tee-boy.com Web: http://www.tee-boy.com From Torsten at Dittel.info Thu Dec 18 16:38:34 2008 From: Torsten at Dittel.info (Torsten Dittel) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 22:38:34 +0100 Subject: [Coco] C source code for CoCo C cross compiler In-Reply-To: <546401BB-A296-472E-8155-BBE42017BE13@tee-boy.com> References: <546401BB-A296-472E-8155-BBE42017BE13@tee-boy.com> Message-ID: Boisy Pitre schrieb: > [...] Someone anonymously sent me a CD with these sources [...] Just for curiousity: do you see any particular reason for such behaviour? Regards, Torsten From t.fadden at cox.net Thu Dec 18 16:51:01 2008 From: t.fadden at cox.net (Tim Fadden) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 14:51:01 -0700 Subject: [Coco] C source code for CoCo C cross compiler In-Reply-To: References: <546401BB-A296-472E-8155-BBE42017BE13@tee-boy.com> Message-ID: <494AC5C5.8020408@cox.net> Most likely was afraid of all the B.S. he would have to put up with on this list if anybody found out his name! ha ha ha "No good deed goes unpunished!" Tim Fadden orsten Dittel wrote: > Boisy Pitre schrieb: > >> [...] Someone anonymously sent me a CD with these sources [...] > > Just for curiousity: do you see any particular reason for such behaviour? > > Regards, > Torsten > > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > > From flexser at fiu.edu Thu Dec 18 17:14:36 2008 From: flexser at fiu.edu (Art Flexser) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 17:14:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Coco] Assembly help: Corrupted bin file ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You use multiple ORG statements, but there can be only one exec address for the binary file. You've specified two of them in your example. (I'd assume most assemblers would replace the first exec address ($2000) when the second ($7000) is encountered.) Use just a single END specifier to let the assembler know the exec address for the binary. Art On Thu, 18 Dec 2008, Fedor Steeman wrote: > Thanks Roger. > > So, how do I code a multi-segment source file in assembly? Do I just use > multiple origin statements? Like: > > ORG $2000 > START NOP > NOP > END START > ORG $7000 > STRT2 NOP > NOP > END STRT2 > > Cheers, > Fedor > > 2008/12/18 Roger Taylor > > > At 01:30 AM 12/17/2008, you wrote: > > > >> Hello everyone, > >> > >> I am still trying to learn assembly language but keep on running into > >> problems. > >> > >> I have been trying to have the following source code assembled: > >> > >> VIDRAM EQU $0400 *Start of Video Display location > >> V0CLR EQU $FFC0 *Clear bit for Sam Chip (Graphics mode) > >> V1SET EQU $FFC3 *Set V1 bit in Sam Chip (Graphics mode) > >> V2SET EQU $FFC5 *set V2 bit in Sam Chip (Graphics mode) > >> VOFSET EQU $FFC6 *Display Offset Binary, This is the CLR Bit > >> (Video page offset) > >> VDGSET EQU $FF22 *PIA1 data port B: VDG Control output > >> POLCAT EQU $A000 *Color Basic rom poll keyboard routine > >> > >> ORG $21FD > >> LDX #VIDRAM *331D: 8E 04 00 > >> LDD $AAAA *3320: CC AA AA > >> Z3323 STD ,X++ *3323: ED 81 > >> CMPX #$1C00 *3325: 8C 1C 00 > >> BCS Z3323 *3328: 25 F9 > >> NOP *332A: 12 > >> PMODE4 STA V0CLR *2787: B7 FF C0 > >> STA V1SET *278A: B7 FF C3 > >> STA V2SET *278D: B7 FF C5 > >> LDA #$F8 *2790: 86 F8 > >> STA VDGSET *2792: B7 FF 22 > >> STA VOFSET *2795: B7 FF C6 > >> JSR [POLCAT] *332E: AD 9F A0 00 > >> RTS *3332: > >> > > > > > > The source code above is missing two things: > > the label of the starting line/address > > > > try: > > EXEC LDX #VIDRAM > > > > and the LOADM/EXEC finalizer is missing > > the last line of the source code should be: > > > > END EXEC > > > > Now when you LOADM the program from BASIC, all you have to do is type EXEC > > No address is needed as in EXEC #####. > > If you just used END without an address, you'd have to type EXEC $21FD from > > BASIC to run the program. > > > > > > > > -- > > Roger Taylor > > > > http://www.wordofthedayonline.com > > > > > > -- > > Coco mailing list > > Coco at maltedmedia.com > > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > > > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > From lost at l-w.ca Thu Dec 18 17:28:07 2008 From: lost at l-w.ca (William Astle) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 15:28:07 -0700 Subject: [Coco] Assembly help: Corrupted bin file ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <494ACE77.7050109@l-w.ca> Art Flexser wrote: > You use multiple ORG statements, but there can be only one exec address for the > binary file. You've specified two of them in your example. (I'd assume most > assemblers would replace the first exec address ($2000) when the second ($7000) > is encountered.) Use just a single END specifier to let the assembler know the > exec address for the binary. Actually, a lot of assemblers will stop assembly completely at the first END statement encountered. Hence the name "END". > > Art > > On Thu, 18 Dec 2008, Fedor Steeman wrote: > >> Thanks Roger. >> >> So, how do I code a multi-segment source file in assembly? Do I just use >> multiple origin statements? Like: >> >> ORG $2000 >> START NOP >> NOP >> END START >> ORG $7000 >> STRT2 NOP >> NOP >> END STRT2 >> >> Cheers, >> Fedor >> >> 2008/12/18 Roger Taylor >> >>> At 01:30 AM 12/17/2008, you wrote: >>> >>>> Hello everyone, >>>> >>>> I am still trying to learn assembly language but keep on running into >>>> problems. >>>> >>>> I have been trying to have the following source code assembled: >>>> >>>> VIDRAM EQU $0400 *Start of Video Display location >>>> V0CLR EQU $FFC0 *Clear bit for Sam Chip (Graphics mode) >>>> V1SET EQU $FFC3 *Set V1 bit in Sam Chip (Graphics mode) >>>> V2SET EQU $FFC5 *set V2 bit in Sam Chip (Graphics mode) >>>> VOFSET EQU $FFC6 *Display Offset Binary, This is the CLR Bit >>>> (Video page offset) >>>> VDGSET EQU $FF22 *PIA1 data port B: VDG Control output >>>> POLCAT EQU $A000 *Color Basic rom poll keyboard routine >>>> >>>> ORG $21FD >>>> LDX #VIDRAM *331D: 8E 04 00 >>>> LDD $AAAA *3320: CC AA AA >>>> Z3323 STD ,X++ *3323: ED 81 >>>> CMPX #$1C00 *3325: 8C 1C 00 >>>> BCS Z3323 *3328: 25 F9 >>>> NOP *332A: 12 >>>> PMODE4 STA V0CLR *2787: B7 FF C0 >>>> STA V1SET *278A: B7 FF C3 >>>> STA V2SET *278D: B7 FF C5 >>>> LDA #$F8 *2790: 86 F8 >>>> STA VDGSET *2792: B7 FF 22 >>>> STA VOFSET *2795: B7 FF C6 >>>> JSR [POLCAT] *332E: AD 9F A0 00 >>>> RTS *3332: >>>> >>> >>> The source code above is missing two things: >>> the label of the starting line/address >>> >>> try: >>> EXEC LDX #VIDRAM >>> >>> and the LOADM/EXEC finalizer is missing >>> the last line of the source code should be: >>> >>> END EXEC >>> >>> Now when you LOADM the program from BASIC, all you have to do is type EXEC >>> No address is needed as in EXEC #####. >>> If you just used END without an address, you'd have to type EXEC $21FD from >>> BASIC to run the program. >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Roger Taylor >>> >>> http://www.wordofthedayonline.com >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Coco mailing list >>> Coco at maltedmedia.com >>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco >>> >> -- >> Coco mailing list >> Coco at maltedmedia.com >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco >> > > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > From robert.gault at worldnet.att.net Thu Dec 18 18:25:22 2008 From: robert.gault at worldnet.att.net (Robert Gault) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 18:25:22 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Assembly help: Corrupted bin file ? In-Reply-To: <494ACE77.7050109@l-w.ca> References: <494ACE77.7050109@l-w.ca> Message-ID: <494ADBE2.7060003@worldnet.att.net> I'll add to what Art and William wrote about multiple ORG statements. The term "multi-segment source file" is somewhat deceptive. The precise meaning relates not to the source code at all but the manner in which the compiled file is stored on disk. The Coco does not store bare binary programs on disk. The only way to create these file with just a Coco is to create a data file. The Coco always has at least a preamble and postamble defining where the program loads into memory, how long it is, and where the execution address is located. If the only the initial preamble and postamble are present, then the file is a single segment file. This type of storage is not the default for the Tandy EDTASM program. It defaults to multi-segment files that typically have segments of 256 bytes. Each segment has a preamble. This happens even if the is a single ORG statement in the source code. If there are multiple ORG statements, then each ORG could engender a preamble in the stored file. So, how does the above apply to EDTASM or RainbowIDE? EDTASM has an assembly option to force the single segment format if there is no more than one ORG statement. A "FILENAME" /SR which stands for single record. RainbowIDE offers many more options in the Output Object drop-down entry. The net result is that the number of ORG statements and assembler options determine how or if the resulting binary is segmented. =============== You already got from another reader the answer to controlling the the start of the PMODE screens. To restate it, bytes $FFC6-$FFD3 do this. Each even byte is a 0, each odd byte a 1. The bits are combined into a seven bit word that points to the start of the video address for a Coco1, Coco2, or Coco3 in Coco1 mode. $FFC6/$FFC7 is the least significant bit and $FFD2/$FFD3 the most significant bit. Screen start / by $200 = video offset Low res text screen is $400/$200=2=%10 = $FFC9 $FFC6 Beginning of the PMODE screen on a non-disk system $600/$200=3=%11 = $FFC9 $FFC7 Beginning of the PMODE screen on a disk system $E00/$200=7=%111 = $FFCB $FFC9 $FFC7 From operator at coco3.com Thu Dec 18 18:39:19 2008 From: operator at coco3.com (Roger Taylor) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 17:39:19 -0600 Subject: [Coco] Assembly help: Corrupted bin file ? In-Reply-To: References: <20081217233528.4B55120A14@qs281.pair.com> Message-ID: <20081218233935.4C29820A14@qs281.pair.com> At 01:35 AM 12/18/2008, you wrote: >Thanks Roger. > >So, how do I code a multi-segment source file in assembly? Do I just use >multiple origin statements? Like: > > ORG $2000 >START NOP > NOP >END START > ORG $7000 >STRT2 NOP > NOP >END STRT2 > >Cheers, >Fedor Only one END statement is used, and at the end of the listing. With CCASM you really don't need to use it unless you're specifying the EXEC address. -- Roger Taylor http://www.wordofthedayonline.com From boisy at tee-boy.com Thu Dec 18 18:51:28 2008 From: boisy at tee-boy.com (Boisy Pitre) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 17:51:28 -0600 Subject: [Coco] C source code for CoCo C cross compiler In-Reply-To: <494AC5C5.8020408@cox.net> References: <546401BB-A296-472E-8155-BBE42017BE13@tee-boy.com> <494AC5C5.8020408@cox.net> Message-ID: <41EBA9B8-F27E-4F07-8999-573C5C2C7A82@tee-boy.com> Based on the postmark, I am certain I know who it is, but I will not divulge the person's identity. Let's just say that this individual probably doesn't want to get into any legal entanglements. I think the chances of that are nil, but I respect this individual's wishes. Let's consider it a gift from someone who appreciates the community. On Dec 18, 2008, at 3:51 PM, Tim Fadden wrote: > Most likely was afraid of all the B.S. he would have to put up with > on this list if anybody found out his name! ha ha ha > > "No good deed goes unpunished!" > > Tim Fadden > > orsten Dittel wrote: >> Boisy Pitre schrieb: >> >>> [...] Someone anonymously sent me a CD with these sources [...] >> >> Just for curiousity: do you see any particular reason for such >> behaviour? >> >> Regards, >> Torsten >> >> >> -- >> Coco mailing list >> Coco at maltedmedia.com >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco >> >> > > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco Regards, Boisy G. Pitre -- Tee-Boy Mobile: 337.781.3570 Email: boisy at tee-boy.com Web: http://www.tee-boy.com From operator at coco3.com Thu Dec 18 18:57:16 2008 From: operator at coco3.com (Roger Taylor) Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2008 17:57:16 -0600 Subject: [Coco] Assembly help: Corrupted bin file ? In-Reply-To: <494ADBE2.7060003@worldnet.att.net> References: <494ACE77.7050109@l-w.ca> <494ADBE2.7060003@worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: <20081218235731.844B420A14@qs281.pair.com> At 05:25 PM 12/18/2008, you wrote: >I'll add to what Art and William wrote about multiple ORG statements. > >The term "multi-segment source file" is somewhat deceptive. The >precise meaning relates not to the source code at all but the manner >in which the compiled file is stored on disk. >The Coco does not store bare binary programs on disk. The only way >to create these file with just a Coco is to create a data file. The >Coco always has at least a preamble and postamble defining where the >program loads into memory, how long it is, and where the execution >address is located. Except for CCASM which can produce direct code files (a.k.a. ROMs, raw binaries, etc.). Use the switch -rom=8k -rom=16k etc. All RMBs or gaps in the program counter will be filled with zeros to pad out the file. Multiple ORGs are still possible if you're building a ROM image as long as each subsequent ORG address is higher than the last, I do believe the space gets filled with zeros just as if you were using RMB's. A single-segment CCASM program is exactly like a ROM file but it can be LOADM'ed into the CoCo. >If the only the initial preamble and postamble are present, then the >file is a single segment file. This type of storage is not the >default for the Tandy EDTASM program. It defaults to multi-segment >files that typically have segments of 256 bytes. Each segment has a >preamble. This happens even if the is a single ORG statement in the >source code. >If there are multiple ORG statements, then each ORG could engender a >preamble in the stored file. > >So, how does the above apply to EDTASM or RainbowIDE? EDTASM has an >assembly option to force the single segment format if there is no >more than one ORG statement. A "FILENAME" /SR which stands for >single record. RainbowIDE offers many more options in the Output >Object drop-down entry. > >The net result is that the number of ORG statements and assembler >options determine how or if the resulting binary is segmented. > >=============== >You already got from another reader the answer to controlling the >the start of the PMODE screens. To restate it, bytes $FFC6-$FFD3 do >this. Each even byte is a 0, each odd byte a 1. The bits are >combined into a seven bit word that points to the start of the video >address for a Coco1, Coco2, or Coco3 in Coco1 mode. $FFC6/$FFC7 is >the least significant bit and $FFD2/$FFD3 the most significant bit. >Screen start / by $200 = video offset >Low res text screen is $400/$200=2=%10 = $FFC9 $FFC6 >Beginning of the PMODE screen on a non-disk system > $600/$200=3=%11 = $FFC9 $FFC7 >Beginning of the PMODE screen on a disk system > $E00/$200=7=%111 = $FFCB $FFC9 $FFC7 -- Roger Taylor http://www.wordofthedayonline.com From bkheath at gmail.com Fri Dec 19 04:52:46 2008 From: bkheath at gmail.com (Brett Heath) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 01:52:46 -0800 Subject: [Coco] CoCo f83 -- Questions on .bin file format and disk layout for non SSSD disks. Message-ID: Hello all, Before begging for help here's an update on the status of f83 for the CoCo. In the process of researching CRC implementations it became clear that the CRC was designed to detect relatively small differences between almost identical data blocks and is therefore probably not reliable as a fingerprint to distinguish blocks that are completely different. In other words, FAT's are short enough and probably similar enought that a CRC could probably be used to distinguish them but the potential variability in the corresponding (and somewhat longer) directory tracks is so large as to make CRC's unreliable at best and in general worse than useless as an identification hash. So after translating the forth CRC code to 6809 assembler I set it aside and took a break from slogging through the DOS emulation and spent some time working on fun stuff. Fun stuff in this case includes: Converting the kernel source from the Chromium assembler to the Flex assembler. Adapting WORDS and the VOCABULARY management to work with the position independent dictionary. Getting the Flex assembler to load (this was almost trivial). Modifying the Multitasker for the CoCo (the DOS-CP/M version relies on software restarts) Rewriting the Debugger low-level (this was non-trivial). The Multitasker is untested but everything else is working, coolest of all are the debugger and the assembler. Which brings me back to the DOS stuff. The nice thing about using an assembler and metacompiler written in forth for forth is that I can generate any ouput format I care to implement. The not so nice thing is that it doesn't automatically know what output format is appropriate for an executable .bin file that will load from Disk Basic. By examining the first few bytes in other .bin files and playing around with the options on VCC2's import utilities I've come up with; 00 for the first five bytes, but this didn't seem to work and it's apparent from the conversation in the Assembler thread that it's more complicated than that. The Assembler thread gave me some more hints, but there are still some murky spots. 1. Can a large (~16k) executable be put in a single segment .bin file? 2. If not what are the size restrictions and format requirements for each segment? 3. If so, what's the format of the postamble (and preamble for that matter)? 4. Is there someplace where this is documented so I don't have to pester people with questions? 5. What is the largest executable that can be loaded and run from Basic? (64k CoCo 2) I would actually prefer to finish development without relying on the disk system beyond using it to test my file interface, but until I can get a serial interface working on an emulator I'm stuck with it. There are drivers available for either the bit-banger or an ACIA that would be easy to incorporate into f83 as a replacement for disk I/O but the bit-banger in both VCC2 and xmess are apparently only usable as printers. Is there ACIA emulation in xmess? Can it be attached to a virtual or physical serial port? Yeah, I've asked this before but serial I/O from an emulator would _really_ help a lot. As to the other questions mentioned in the subject line. Playing around with the fun stuff had the side benefit of testing the file-read implementation. It seems reliable but the performance could be better, probably due to the rather mindless logical record to physical sector conversion calculation. In any case, before rewriting that and cleaning up the open-file management it would be nice to know something about the layout of disk sizes other than the 35 track 18 sector/track default so f83 can deal with them too. Specifically, where are the additional FAT and directory entries stored on the 40 and 80 track disks. What other disk sizes/formats are common in the CoCo world and where might I find documantation on their layout? For my own purposes I'm targeting a CoCo tethered to another system through a serial port, but as long as I'm porting the thing I'd like to make it useful for as many Coconuts as possible, so the more disk formats it knows how to handle the better. My Internet connection is a bit on the flakey side right now so if I don't acknowledge replies right away please bear with me (this is it's first day back up since December 2). Brett K. Heath From robert.gault at worldnet.att.net Fri Dec 19 08:41:14 2008 From: robert.gault at worldnet.att.net (Robert Gault) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 08:41:14 -0500 Subject: [Coco] CoCo f83 -- Questions on .bin file format and disk layout for non SSSD disks. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <494BA47A.7000804@worldnet.att.net> Brett Heath wrote: > Hello all, > > Before begging for help here's an update on the status of f83 for the CoCo. > > > > By examining the first few bytes in other .bin files and playing around with > the options on VCC2's import utilities I've come up with; > > 00 > > for the first five bytes, but this didn't seem to work and it's apparent > from the conversation in the Assembler thread that it's more complicated > than that. > > The Assembler thread gave me some more hints, but there are still some > murky spots. > > 1. Can a large (~16k) executable be put in a single segment .bin file? As you correctly stated, each segment preamble is of the form $00 size location with size and location in Motorola format - msn lsn That means the largest segment can't exceed $FFFF bytes base 1. So, the answer to your question is Yes, as 16k is $4000. > 2. If not what are the size restrictions and format requirements for > each segment? The content of each segment must be contiguous. > 3. If so, what's the format of the postamble (and preamble for that matter)? The postamble is $FF $00 $00 $MM $NN indicating that the end of the file has been reached $FF0000 and the execution (starting) address is $MMNN > 4. Is there someplace where this is documented so I don't have to > pester people > with questions? Probably lots of places, certainly in the disk chapter of the Unravelled series by Spectral Associates. > 5. What is the largest executable that can be loaded and run from Basic? > (64k CoCo 2) Assuming you are not going to use the trick of moving all code to RAM, you can load slightly under 32k. You must leave room in low RAM for the Basic OS. Tape only $600-$7FFF, Disk $E00-$7FFF. If Basic is to still operate, then room must be left for variables and stack space. You would need to CLEAR some space but not much. If you are going to use all RAM, then you might put a loader program into the text window $400-$5FF, load bytes from tape or disk, move the bytes into RAM, and then start the program. That will give you access to $600-$FEFF. The amount of memory available depends on how much of the ROM code you want to use in your programs. > > Specifically, where are the additional FAT and directory entries > stored on the 40 and > 80 track disks. As this is not sanctioned by Tandy for Disk Basic, there is no universal format for these larger disks. The few third party DOS that work with Basic disks larger than 42 tracks just extend the FAT region on the disk in T17S2. There is no change in the directory structure which is still T17S3 through T17S18. The real problem is the low RAM used by Disk Basic. There is no more room in RAM to extend FAT copies, so something has to give. You can't work simultaneously with 4 drives. > What other disk sizes/formats are common in the CoCo world and > where might I find documantation on their layout? OS-9 and FLEX. The OS-9 info can be found at http://www.rtsi.com/ftparchive.html You will have to search the Internet for info on FLEX. If you are talking about disk images on a PC, then there is JVC and DMK. Take a look at the source code for MESS mess/src/formats/coco_dsk.c Source code is available at http://www.mess.org/download.php or you can install SVN and browse the MESS repository. > > Brett K. Heath > From snhirsch at gmail.com Fri Dec 19 09:55:58 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 09:55:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Coco] C source code for CoCo C cross compiler In-Reply-To: <546401BB-A296-472E-8155-BBE42017BE13@tee-boy.com> References: <546401BB-A296-472E-8155-BBE42017BE13@tee-boy.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Dec 2008, Boisy Pitre wrote: > I have placed the source code for a disassembled version of the CoCo C cross > compiler up on ftp.maltedmedia.com's incoming folder. The name is > Csources.zip. Someone anonymously sent me a CD with these sources, so I'm > making them available to the community. Does anyone know when/if this will be moved to a location that's accessible for download? -- From diegoba at adinet.com.uy Fri Dec 19 11:48:30 2008 From: diegoba at adinet.com.uy (Diego Barizo) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 14:48:30 -0200 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet status In-Reply-To: <20081207215349.3265E20A13@qs281.pair.com> References: <20081207030833.5788920A15@qs281.pair.com> <001b01c95884$b94739f0$6401a8c0@OLDGEORGE> <20081207215349.3265E20A13@qs281.pair.com> Message-ID: <494BD05E.50508@adinet.com.uy> Hi Roger. This project looks very promising, and I was thinking if you had any idea of what the final price would be, and if there is any requirement besides a serial CoCo <->PC cable. ( I seem to remember you mentioned it can be straigth or twisted, right?) Thanks for your hard work, Diego From n6il at ocs.net Fri Dec 19 12:28:22 2008 From: n6il at ocs.net (Michael Furman) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 09:28:22 -0800 Subject: [Coco] CoCo f83 -- Questions on .bin file format and disk layout for non SSSD disks. In-Reply-To: <494BA47A.7000804@worldnet.att.net> References: <494BA47A.7000804@worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: <68E017CC-D61C-42D7-ABA0-03817ED1C870@ocs.net> Please have a look at http://www.ocs.net/~n6il/bindecode.c (apologise for there being no comments) as an example. This program will display all of the information contained in the record headers of .bin files. Further comments inline: On Dec 19, 2008, at 5:41 AM, Robert Gault wrote: > Brett Heath wrote: >> >> 4. Is there someplace where this is documented so I don't have to >> pester people >> with questions? > > Probably lots of places, certainly in the disk chapter of the > Unravelled series by Spectral Associates. This is indeed documented in Disk-Basic Unravelled under "Machine Language File Input/Output" on page 17. > >> 5. What is the largest executable that can be loaded and run from >> Basic? >> (64k CoCo 2) > > Assuming you are not going to use the trick of moving all code to > RAM, you can load slightly under 32k. You must leave room in low RAM > for the Basic OS. Tape only $600-$7FFF, Disk $E00-$7FFF. > If Basic is to still operate, then room must be left for variables > and stack space. You would need to CLEAR some space but not much. > If you are going to use all RAM, then you might put a loader program > into the text window $400-$5FF, load bytes from tape or disk, move > the bytes into RAM, and then start the program. That will give you > access to $600-$FEFF. > The amount of memory available depends on how much of the ROM code > you want to use in your programs. From playing with the gcc6809 port I have some additional information. Since I am creating disk images and then LOADM'ing the BIN files onto the system I had to play around with the program segments (text, bss, data, etc) quite a bit to keep from writing on top of basic variables. I had issues with both causing problems to DECB and DECB causing problems to my program. Here's what I wound up with that seems to keep me out of trouble (These are options being given to ASLINK to tell it where the segments are going) options="-b .text=0x2000 -b .data=0x7000 -b .bss=0x7C00 - b .ctors=0x7F40 -b .dtors=0x7F80 -b vector=0x7FC0" I found that writing anything below $2000 is trouble - DECB has a lot of variables and buffers stored before the VDG display buffer. At one time the BSS segment was loading on top of the DECB buffers causing the loaded program to corrupt itself. I used $1800 for a while and ran into some trouble with that, I don't remember what it was offhand. On the other end the basic roms spend some amount of time to find the end of ram. On a 32/64k system TOPRAM ($0074) is $7FFE. It seems to place the stack around $7F35 and works its way down towards $7F00 (and farther if a complex basic program is run), so I had to move segments out of this range of memory as well. You will note that I stuck the infrequently used ctors, dtors and vector segments (used for things like stdio initialization and atexit(3)) after the stack, knowing that this could be dangerous and I might have to move them again in the future. In general anything between $2000 and $7EFF is very safe. This is around 24k of usable space. You can still do LOADM and EXEC as well as most simple BASIC commands without any trouble. From bkheath at gmail.com Fri Dec 19 13:46:36 2008 From: bkheath at gmail.com (Brett Heath) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 10:46:36 -0800 Subject: [Coco] CoCo f83 -- Questions on .bin file format and disk layout for non SSSD disks. In-Reply-To: <494BA47A.7000804@worldnet.att.net> References: <494BA47A.7000804@worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: Thanks Robert! There are still some unclear details however (questions interspersed below). On 12/19/08, Robert Gault wrote: > Brett Heath wrote: > The postamble is $FF $00 $00 $MM $NN indicating that the end of the file > has been reached $FF0000 and the execution (starting) address is $MMNN > Ok, how picky is Basic about the length (in the preamble) and the position of the post-bytes. The reason I'm asking is that currently the meta/cross compiler saves files in sizes that are mutliples of 1K with a zero fill from the end-of-image to the next 1K boundary. The value currently being stored in the length field reflects reflects this. So, if I just tack the post-amble on at end-of-image and zero fill till the next 1K boundary should I expect that to work or does the post-amble have to be in the last sector of the file or perhaps even at the end of the last sector? It's not that difficult to change things around so it saves only till the next sector boundary but I'd just as soon have a few hundred bytes after the image that are cleared by loading the file (since they're going to be used as soon as the kernel is extended anyway). In some ways the 1K boundaries are more "natural" for forth but it's not a big issue, I just have to know so I can implement it properly. >> 4. Is there someplace where this is documented so I don't have to >> pester people >> with questions? > > Probably lots of places, certainly in the disk chapter of the Unravelled > series by Spectral Associates. I didn't see that (probably looking for something else at the time). There's also a bit about it in the Disk EDTASM manual but that was less than clear, and didn't mention the post-amble at all IIRC. >> 5. What is the largest executable that can be loaded and run from Basic? >> (64k CoCo 2) > Assuming you are not going to use the trick of moving all code to RAM, > you can load slightly under 32k. You must leave room in low RAM for the > Basic OS. Tape only $600-$7FFF, Disk $E00-$7FFF. > If Basic is to still operate, then room must be left for variables and > stack space. You would need to CLEAR some space but not much. > If you are going to use all RAM, then you might put a loader program > into the text window $400-$5FF, load bytes from tape or disk, move the > bytes into RAM, and then start the program. That will give you access to > $600-$FEFF. > The amount of memory available depends on how much of the ROM code you > want to use in your programs. At the moment the kernel disables interrupts (except NMI) by stuffing RTI's in the ram vectors and turns off the ROMs during init. It then re-enables the ROMs just before I/O calls (POLCAT, CHAROUT and DSKCON) then shuts them off again. I haven't yet used the hi ram though. What I'm contemplating is copying the bare minimum from basic (Interrupt routines, Char I/O and DSKCON) and possibly relocating them to an area just below the hardware page and then putting forth's Block and Terminal buffers and stacks just below that. The kernel itself would load strictly below 7FFF, copy what it needs from the Basic ROMs then move it's buffers and stacks up. There's some problems with this though. What I've seen of the Basic ROMs (while single stepping through the char routines) didn't look relocatable. Different versions of Basic are going to need different areas moved. Including a position independent and "generic" version of the necessary Basic routines in the kernel binary itself would not only bloat the kernel, it would be a blatant copyright violation. Ah well, that's a problem for later. >> >> Specifically, where are the additional FAT and directory entries >> stored on the 40 and >> 80 track disks. > > As this is not sanctioned by Tandy for Disk Basic, there is no universal > format for these larger disks. The few third party DOS that work with > Basic disks larger than 42 tracks just extend the FAT region on the disk > in T17S2. There is no change in the directory structure which is still > T17S3 through T17S18. > The real problem is the low RAM used by Disk Basic. There is no more > room in RAM to extend FAT copies, so something has to give. You can't > work simultaneously with 4 drives. The f83 RSDOS emulator (for lack of a better term) doesn't use Basics buffers at all. It allocates additional internal FAT buffers as needed when new drives are first acessed (that's a large part of what made it grow from 12K to almost 15K). Guess I'll have to make them a little larger. > >> What other disk sizes/formats are common in the CoCo world and >> where might I find documantation on their layout? > > OS-9 and FLEX. The OS-9 info can be found at > http://www.rtsi.com/ftparchive.html You will have to search the Internet > for info on FLEX. I'm using FLEX's forth assembler (slightly modified) so there's probably not a burning need to port forth to FLEX right now;-). OS9 is a goal (as well as a 6309 extension to the assembler) but not till after there's a native CoCo development environment. Thanks again Robert. Brett K. Heath From mechacoco at gmail.com Fri Dec 19 14:08:13 2008 From: mechacoco at gmail.com (Darren A) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 12:08:13 -0700 Subject: [Coco] CoCo f83 -- Questions on .bin file format and disk layout for non SSSD disks. In-Reply-To: References: <494BA47A.7000804@worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: <5d802cd0812191108t5037fb91l47fce533b15b98f@mail.gmail.com> On 12/19/08, Brett Heath wrote: > > Ok, how picky is Basic about the length (in the preamble) and the position > of > the post-bytes. > > The reason I'm asking is that currently the meta/cross compiler saves files > in sizes that are mutliples of 1K with a zero fill from the end-of-image to > the > next 1K boundary. The value currently being stored in the length field > reflects > reflects this. So, if I just tack the post-amble on at end-of-image > and zero fill till > the next 1K boundary should I expect that to work or does the post-amble > have to be in the last sector of the file or perhaps even at the end of the > last sector? The LOADM command uses the LENGTH field in the preamble to determine how many bytes to read and store into memory (starting at the address specified in the preamble). It expects the postamble (or a preamble for another segment) to appear immediately following the segments last data byte. Any data in the file following the postamble is ignored by LOADM. Darren From bkheath at gmail.com Fri Dec 19 14:32:22 2008 From: bkheath at gmail.com (Brett Heath) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 11:32:22 -0800 Subject: [Coco] CoCo f83 -- Questions on .bin file format and disk layout for non SSSD disks. In-Reply-To: <68E017CC-D61C-42D7-ABA0-03817ED1C870@ocs.net> References: <494BA47A.7000804@worldnet.att.net> <68E017CC-D61C-42D7-ABA0-03817ED1C870@ocs.net> Message-ID: On 12/19/08, Michael Furman wrote: > Please have a look at http://www.ocs.net/~n6il/bindecode.c (apologise > for there being no comments) as an example. This program will display > all of the information contained in the record headers of .bin files. > > Further comments inline: > > On Dec 19, 2008, at 5:41 AM, Robert Gault wrote: > >> Brett Heath wrote: >>> >>> 4. Is there someplace where this is documented so I don't have to >>> pester people >>> with questions? >> >> Probably lots of places, certainly in the disk chapter of the >> Unravelled series by Spectral Associates. > > This is indeed documented in Disk-Basic Unravelled under "Machine > Language File Input/Output" on page 17. Thanks for the reference. > From playing with the gcc6809 port I have some additional > information. Since I am creating disk images and then LOADM'ing the > BIN files onto the system I had to play around with the program > segments (text, bss, data, etc) quite a bit to keep from writing on > top of basic variables. I had issues with both causing problems to > DECB and DECB causing problems to my program. Here's what I wound up > with that seems to keep me out of trouble (These are options being > given to ASLINK to tell it where the segments are going) > > options="-b .text=0x2000 -b .data=0x7000 -b .bss=0x7C00 - > b .ctors=0x7F40 -b .dtors=0x7F80 -b vector=0x7FC0" At the moment f83 isn't using seperate segments. It can be reorganized to fit into a segmented model but that' a fair amount of work and until it becomes necessary (ie when I tackle OS9 compatibility) that stays on the back burner. > I found that writing anything below $2000 is trouble - DECB has a lot > of variables and buffers stored before the VDG display buffer. At one > time the BSS segment was loading on top of the DECB buffers causing > the loaded program to corrupt itself. I used $1800 for a while and > ran into some trouble with that, I don't remember what it was offhand. The current test platform is a VCC2 .pak file that's loaded starting at $1200 (hex). as recommended for use under EDTASM DOS. This has worked well so far since the only thing Basic is used for is DSKCON and the char I/O rom calls. > On the other end the basic roms spend some amount of time to find the > end of ram. On a 32/64k system TOPRAM ($0074) is $7FFE. It seems to > place the stack around $7F35 and works its way down towards $7F00 (and > farther if a complex basic program is run), so I had to move segments > out of this range of memory as well. You will note that I stuck the > infrequently used ctors, dtors and vector segments (used for things > like stdio initialization and atexit(3)) after the stack, knowing > that this could be dangerous and I might have to move them again in > the future. > In general anything between $2000 and $7EFF is very safe. This is > around 24k of usable space. You can still do LOADM and EXEC as well > as most simple BASIC commands without any trouble. Basic doesn't even get a stack, f83 generously let's the ROM routines borrow it's stack when it needs to do I/O. Other than that the ROMs are disabled (this may have to change tho). Thanks for the info Brett K. Heath From bkheath at gmail.com Fri Dec 19 14:56:47 2008 From: bkheath at gmail.com (Brett Heath) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 11:56:47 -0800 Subject: [Coco] CoCo f83 -- Questions on .bin file format and disk layout for non SSSD disks. In-Reply-To: <5d802cd0812191108t5037fb91l47fce533b15b98f@mail.gmail.com> References: <494BA47A.7000804@worldnet.att.net> <5d802cd0812191108t5037fb91l47fce533b15b98f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 12/19/08, Darren A wrote: > On 12/19/08, Brett Heath wrote: >> >> Ok, how picky is Basic about the length (in the preamble) and the position >> of >> the post-bytes. >> >> The reason I'm asking is that currently the meta/cross compiler saves >> files >> in sizes that are mutliples of 1K with a zero fill from the end-of-image >> to >> the >> next 1K boundary. The value currently being stored in the length field >> reflects >> reflects this. So, if I just tack the post-amble on at end-of-image >> and zero fill till >> the next 1K boundary should I expect that to work or does the post-amble >> have to be in the last sector of the file or perhaps even at the end of >> the >> last sector? > > The LOADM command uses the LENGTH field in the preamble to determine > how many bytes to read and store into memory (starting at the address > specified in the preamble). It expects the postamble (or a preamble > for another segment) to appear immediately following the segments last > data byte. > > Any data in the file following the postamble is ignored by LOADM. > > Darren Ahhh... That explains a lot. Got it. Thanks. Brett K. Heath From exwn8jef at gmail.com Fri Dec 19 18:31:44 2008 From: exwn8jef at gmail.com (N8WQ) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 18:31:44 -0500 Subject: [Coco] CoCo f83 -- Questions on .bin file format and disk layout for non SSSD disks. In-Reply-To: References: <494BA47A.7000804@worldnet.att.net> <68E017CC-D61C-42D7-ABA0-03817ED1C870@ocs.net> Message-ID: <494C2EE0.5060304@gmail.com> Hi Brett, What is the "f83" you keep talking about? Alan Jones -- N8WQ - Canal Winchester, Ohio http://exwn8jef.googlepages.com/home http://n8wq.blogspot.com Brett Heath wrote: > On 12/19/08, Michael Furman wrote: > >> Please have a look at http://www.ocs.net/~n6il/bindecode.c (apologise >> for there being no comments) as an example. This program will display >> all of the information contained in the record headers of .bin files. >> >> Further comments inline: >> >> On Dec 19, 2008, at 5:41 AM, Robert Gault wrote: >> >> >>> Brett Heath wrote: >>> >>>> 4. Is there someplace where this is documented so I don't have to >>>> pester people >>>> with questions? >>>> >>> Probably lots of places, certainly in the disk chapter of the >>> Unravelled series by Spectral Associates. >>> >> This is indeed documented in Disk-Basic Unravelled under "Machine >> Language File Input/Output" on page 17. >> > > Thanks for the reference. > > > >> From playing with the gcc6809 port I have some additional >> information. Since I am creating disk images and then LOADM'ing the >> BIN files onto the system I had to play around with the program >> segments (text, bss, data, etc) quite a bit to keep from writing on >> top of basic variables. I had issues with both causing problems to >> DECB and DECB causing problems to my program. Here's what I wound up >> with that seems to keep me out of trouble (These are options being >> given to ASLINK to tell it where the segments are going) >> >> options="-b .text=0x2000 -b .data=0x7000 -b .bss=0x7C00 - >> b .ctors=0x7F40 -b .dtors=0x7F80 -b vector=0x7FC0" >> > > At the moment f83 isn't using seperate segments. It can be reorganized > to fit into a segmented model but that' a fair amount of work and until it > becomes necessary (ie when I tackle OS9 compatibility) that stays on > the back burner. > > >> I found that writing anything below $2000 is trouble - DECB has a lot >> of variables and buffers stored before the VDG display buffer. At one >> time the BSS segment was loading on top of the DECB buffers causing >> the loaded program to corrupt itself. I used $1800 for a while and >> ran into some trouble with that, I don't remember what it was offhand. >> > > The current test platform is a VCC2 .pak file that's loaded starting > at $1200 (hex). > as recommended for use under EDTASM DOS. This has worked well so far > since the only thing Basic is used for is DSKCON and the char I/O rom calls. > > > >> On the other end the basic roms spend some amount of time to find the >> end of ram. On a 32/64k system TOPRAM ($0074) is $7FFE. It seems to >> place the stack around $7F35 and works its way down towards $7F00 (and >> farther if a complex basic program is run), so I had to move segments >> out of this range of memory as well. You will note that I stuck the >> infrequently used ctors, dtors and vector segments (used for things >> like stdio initialization and atexit(3)) after the stack, knowing >> that this could be dangerous and I might have to move them again in >> the future. >> > > >> In general anything between $2000 and $7EFF is very safe. This is >> around 24k of usable space. You can still do LOADM and EXEC as well >> as most simple BASIC commands without any trouble. >> > > Basic doesn't even get a stack, f83 generously let's the ROM routines > borrow it's stack when it needs to do I/O. Other than that the ROMs are > disabled (this may have to change tho). > > Thanks for the info > > Brett K. Heath > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > > From gene.heskett at verizon.net Fri Dec 19 21:03:13 2008 From: gene.heskett at verizon.net (Gene Heskett) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 21:03:13 -0500 Subject: [Coco] =?iso-8859-1?q?CoCo_f83_--_Questions_on_=2Ebin_file_format?= =?iso-8859-1?q?_and_disk=09layout_for_non_SSSD_disks=2E?= In-Reply-To: <494C2EE0.5060304@gmail.com> References: <494C2EE0.5060304@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200812192103.13368.gene.heskett@verizon.net> On Friday 19 December 2008, N8WQ wrote: >Hi Brett, >What is the "f83" you keep talking about? > >Alan Jones I assume its the language "Fourth", 1983 specification. I believe that would be Mr. Brady's version. -- Cheers, Gene "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) You are taking yourself far too seriously. From skwirl42 at gmail.com Fri Dec 19 21:44:53 2008 From: skwirl42 at gmail.com (James Dessart) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 22:44:53 -0400 Subject: [Coco] CoCo f83 -- Questions on .bin file format and disk layout for non SSSD disks. In-Reply-To: <200812192103.13368.gene.heskett@verizon.net> References: <494C2EE0.5060304@gmail.com> <200812192103.13368.gene.heskett@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4c56cbd30812191844o5be0739dyf6ae6d8e5d907220@mail.gmail.com> On 12/19/08, Gene Heskett wrote: > >What is the "f83" you keep talking about? > I assume its the language "Fourth", 1983 specification. I believe that would > be Mr. Brady's version. I think it might be Forth instead. ;) -- James Dessart From gene.heskett at verizon.net Fri Dec 19 23:46:50 2008 From: gene.heskett at verizon.net (Gene Heskett) Date: Fri, 19 Dec 2008 23:46:50 -0500 Subject: [Coco] =?iso-8859-1?q?CoCo_f83_--_Questions_on_=2Ebin_file_format?= =?iso-8859-1?q?_and_disk=09layout_for_non_SSSD_disks=2E?= In-Reply-To: <4c56cbd30812191844o5be0739dyf6ae6d8e5d907220@mail.gmail.com> References: <200812192103.13368.gene.heskett@verizon.net> <4c56cbd30812191844o5be0739dyf6ae6d8e5d907220@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200812192346.50619.gene.heskett@verizon.net> On Friday 19 December 2008, James Dessart wrote: >On 12/19/08, Gene Heskett wrote: >> >What is the "f83" you keep talking about? >> >> I assume its the language "Fourth", 1983 specification. I believe that >> would be Mr. Brady's version. > >I think it might be Forth instead. ;) You are probably correct, and now I'm not even sure Brady is the name, Brodie is running around in the back of my mind. I used to have his book, but I have NDI where it got off to when I was cleaning out my office at the tv station back in 2002. More than likely still packed in a box in the basement for my widow to throw out, not knowing what it is. -- Cheers, Gene "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) > Where in the US is Linus? He was in the "Promise Land". -- David S. Miller From petrander at gmail.com Sat Dec 20 03:44:15 2008 From: petrander at gmail.com (Fedor Steeman) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 09:44:15 +0100 Subject: [Coco] Setting graphics modes with Assembly Message-ID: Hi all, I have been studying Chris Lomont's reference guide and, combined with your help, I am starting to come to grips with it. One thing I don't get yet, though, is how to switch from one graphics mode to another. I tried simply appending the following to the already written code, but that doesn't do anything noticeable: LDA #$E8 * load 1110 1000 STA VDGSET * set pmode 3 Also: how to set the equivalent of SCREEN 1,0 / 1,1 commands? This is my complete code so far: TXTSCR EQU $0400 *Start of text screen HIRES1 EQU $E00 *Start of hi-res graphics screen VDGSET EQU $FF22 *PIA1 data port B: VDG Control output V0CLR EQU $FFC0 *Clear bit for Sam Chip (Graphics mode) V1SET EQU $FFC3 *Set V1 bit in Sam Chip (Graphics mode) V2SET EQU $FFC5 *set V2 bit in Sam Chip (Graphics mode) F0CLR EQU $FFC6 *Display Offset Binary, This is the CLR Bit (Video page offset) F0SET EQU $FFC7 F1SET EQU $FFC9 F2SET EQU $FFCB POLCAT EQU $A000 *Color Basic rom poll keyboard routine ORG $7000 START LDX #HIRES1 LDD #$AAAA LOOP1 STD ,X++ CMPX #HIRES1+$1800 BCS LOOP1 GMODE STA V0CLR * set graphics mode STA V1SET * set graphics mode STA V2SET * set graphics mode LDA #$F8 * load 1111 1000 STA F0SET * set graphics mode STA F1SET * set graphics mode STA F2SET * set graphics mode STA VDGSET * set pmode 4 equivalent JMP $ADFB * wait for keypress LDA #$E8 * load 1110 1000 STA VDGSET * set pmode 3 equivalent? JMP $ADFB END START Thanks for any input! Cheers, Fedor From tjseagrove at writeme.com Sat Dec 20 07:06:28 2008 From: tjseagrove at writeme.com (Tom Seagrove) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 07:06:28 -0500 Subject: [Coco] CoCo f83 -- Questions on .bin file format and disk layout for non SSSD disks. In-Reply-To: <200812192346.50619.gene.heskett@verizon.net> References: <200812192103.13368.gene.heskett@verizon.net> <4c56cbd30812191844o5be0739dyf6ae6d8e5d907220@mail.gmail.com> <200812192346.50619.gene.heskett@verizon.net> Message-ID: <000b01c9629b$64040dd0$2c0c2970$@com> Bill Brady?? -----Original Message----- From: coco-bounces at maltedmedia.com [mailto:coco-bounces at maltedmedia.com] On Behalf Of Gene Heskett Sent: Friday, December 19, 2008 11:47 PM To: CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts Subject: Re: [Coco] CoCo f83 -- Questions on .bin file format and disk layout for non SSSD disks. On Friday 19 December 2008, James Dessart wrote: >On 12/19/08, Gene Heskett wrote: >> >What is the "f83" you keep talking about? >> >> I assume its the language "Fourth", 1983 specification. I believe that >> would be Mr. Brady's version. > >I think it might be Forth instead. ;) You are probably correct, and now I'm not even sure Brady is the name, Brodie is running around in the back of my mind. I used to have his book, but I have NDI where it got off to when I was cleaning out my office at the tv station back in 2002. More than likely still packed in a box in the basement for my widow to throw out, not knowing what it is. -- Cheers, Gene "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) > Where in the US is Linus? He was in the "Promise Land". -- David S. Miller -- Coco mailing list Coco at maltedmedia.com http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.19/1857 - Release Date: 12/19/2008 10:09 AM From operator at coco3.com Sat Dec 20 09:57:54 2008 From: operator at coco3.com (Roger Taylor) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 08:57:54 -0600 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet status In-Reply-To: <494BD05E.50508@adinet.com.uy> References: <20081207030833.5788920A15@qs281.pair.com> <001b01c95884$b94739f0$6401a8c0@OLDGEORGE> <20081207215349.3265E20A13@qs281.pair.com> <494BD05E.50508@adinet.com.uy> Message-ID: <20081220145820.1999520A15@qs281.pair.com> At 10:48 AM 12/19/2008, you wrote: >Hi Roger. >This project looks very promising, and I was thinking if you had any >idea of what the final price would be, and if there is any >requirement besides a serial CoCo <->PC cable. ( I seem to remember >you mentioned it can be straigth or twisted, right?) > >Thanks for your hard work, >Diego Diego, I've had a test program running for 2 days straight on a CoCo 2. It's a BASIC program that constantly grabs the CoCo3.com front page and dumps the HTML to the 32-column screen. It was at 2,759 page reads when I broke out of the loop convinced that the SAVEW command was ready. No rendering is done, just a dump of the HTML source. As for ideas and possibilities, there is no limit. Easily these things are possible: Multi-player CoCo games (and in BASIC!) A CoCo version of the CoCo Cafe. Remote CoCo (another CoCo user controls your CoCo console) Remote Control app (from another CoCo or PC on the web, turn on your local CoCo's tape motor, play sound, store data, give responses back, or whatever. The trick is to use PHP or some other scripting language to handle the requests from one CoCo and readback the response data as the content. Using ?variables=value modifiers in the URL, each CoCo could set values that the other CoCo(s) knows about, thus opening a new door for our machine. The new bitbanger cable I'm making will be a 5 foot: female DB-9 to male 4-pin CoCo DIN, with molded shell and plastic thumbscrews for the DB-9 end. I'm going to make a handful of snub cables so that people wanting to make their CoCo wireless can just attach one of those DB-9 to bluetooth transmitters which are completely plug-n-play, btw. -- Roger Taylor http://www.wordofthedayonline.com From dml_68 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 20 10:09:13 2008 From: dml_68 at yahoo.com (Derek) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 07:09:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet status In-Reply-To: <20081220145820.1999520A15@qs281.pair.com> Message-ID: <574910.27178.qm@web30207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I was thinking of getting a Drive Wire set up but this sounds like it will do what Drivewire does and more. Is this true or am I making a wrong assumption. My main goal would be to mount RS-DOS and OS-9 disk images saved on my PC, have them be read and write enabled while also being able to use my Real Floppy drives on my coco III at the same time. Will CoCoNet do all this? Roger Taylor wrote: At 10:48 AM 12/19/2008, you wrote: >Hi Roger. >This project looks very promising, and I was thinking if you had any >idea of what the final price would be, and if there is any >requirement besides a serial CoCo <->PC cable. ( I seem to remember >you mentioned it can be straigth or twisted, right?) > >Thanks for your hard work, >Diego Diego, I've had a test program running for 2 days straight on a CoCo 2. It's a BASIC program that constantly grabs the CoCo3.com front page and dumps the HTML to the 32-column screen. It was at 2,759 page reads when I broke out of the loop convinced that the SAVEW command was ready. No rendering is done, just a dump of the HTML source. As for ideas and possibilities, there is no limit. Easily these things are possible: Multi-player CoCo games (and in BASIC!) A CoCo version of the CoCo Cafe. Remote CoCo (another CoCo user controls your CoCo console) Remote Control app (from another CoCo or PC on the web, turn on your local CoCo's tape motor, play sound, store data, give responses back, or whatever. The trick is to use PHP or some other scripting language to handle the requests from one CoCo and readback the response data as the content. Using ?variables=value modifiers in the URL, each CoCo could set values that the other CoCo(s) knows about, thus opening a new door for our machine. The new bitbanger cable I'm making will be a 5 foot: female DB-9 to male 4-pin CoCo DIN, with molded shell and plastic thumbscrews for the DB-9 end. I'm going to make a handful of snub cables so that people wanting to make their CoCo wireless can just attach one of those DB-9 to bluetooth transmitters which are completely plug-n-play, btw. -- Roger Taylor http://www.wordofthedayonline.com -- Coco mailing list Coco at maltedmedia.com http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco ** Mistrust Authority. Promote Decentralization ** From snhirsch at gmail.com Sat Dec 20 10:09:19 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 10:09:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Coco] CoCo f83 -- Questions on .bin file format and disk layout for non SSSD disks. In-Reply-To: <200812192346.50619.gene.heskett@verizon.net> References: <200812192103.13368.gene.heskett@verizon.net> <4c56cbd30812191844o5be0739dyf6ae6d8e5d907220@mail.gmail.com> <200812192346.50619.gene.heskett@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Dec 2008, Gene Heskett wrote: >>> I assume its the language "Fourth", 1983 specification. I believe that >>> would be Mr. Brady's version. >> >> I think it might be Forth instead. ;) > > You are probably correct, and now I'm not even sure Brady is the name, Brodie > is running around in the back of my mind. I used to have his book, but I > have NDI where it got off to when I was cleaning out my office at the tv > station back in 2002. More than likely still packed in a box in the basement > for my widow to throw out, not knowing what it is. It's Leo Brodie and the book is "Starting Forth" -- From gene.heskett at verizon.net Sat Dec 20 10:28:10 2008 From: gene.heskett at verizon.net (Gene Heskett) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 10:28:10 -0500 Subject: [Coco] =?iso-8859-1?q?CoCo_f83_--_Questions_on_=2Ebin_file_format?= =?iso-8859-1?q?_and=09disk=09layout_for_non_SSSD_disks=2E?= In-Reply-To: <000b01c9629b$64040dd0$2c0c2970$@com> References: <200812192346.50619.gene.heskett@verizon.net> <000b01c9629b$64040dd0$2c0c2970$@com> Message-ID: <200812201028.10341.gene.heskett@verizon.net> On Saturday 20 December 2008, Tom Seagrove wrote: >Bill Brady?? That rings a bell off in the distance, could well be. If I could find the book... First of course I have to look for it, and I'm still finishing the inside of a garage I built this past summer. I need to get a few pix of that portion of the project up on my web page at -- Cheers, Gene "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) "Life sucks, but death doesn't put out at all...." -- Thomas J. Kopp From gene.heskett at verizon.net Sat Dec 20 10:29:39 2008 From: gene.heskett at verizon.net (Gene Heskett) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 10:29:39 -0500 Subject: [Coco] =?iso-8859-1?q?CoCo_f83_--_Questions_on_=2Ebin_file_format?= =?iso-8859-1?q?_and_disk=09layout_for_non_SSSD_disks=2E?= In-Reply-To: References: <200812192346.50619.gene.heskett@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200812201029.39109.gene.heskett@verizon.net> On Saturday 20 December 2008, Steven Hirsch wrote: >On Fri, 19 Dec 2008, Gene Heskett wrote: >>>> I assume its the language "Fourth", 1983 specification. I believe that >>>> would be Mr. Brady's version. >>> >>> I think it might be Forth instead. ;) >> >> You are probably correct, and now I'm not even sure Brady is the name, >> Brodie is running around in the back of my mind. I used to have his book, >> but I have NDI where it got off to when I was cleaning out my office at >> the tv station back in 2002. More than likely still packed in a box in >> the basement for my widow to throw out, not knowing what it is. > >It's Leo Brodie and the book is "Starting Forth" Thanks Steven, that is indeed the one I have. (someplace) :) -- Cheers, Gene "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) QOTD: "It's hard to tell whether he has an ace up his sleeve or if the ace is missing from his deck altogether." From robert.gault at worldnet.att.net Sat Dec 20 10:48:53 2008 From: robert.gault at worldnet.att.net (Robert Gault) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 10:48:53 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Setting graphics modes with Assembly In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <494D13E5.4030004@worldnet.att.net> The main "error" is the first JMP $ADFB. Since you want to return to your program not Basic, this should be JSR $ADFB. The second use of the ROM routine is OK because you do want to return to Basic and therefore should use JMP. $FFC0 is not The clear bit for the SAM rather A clear bit. All even bytes in that region act as clears, all odd bytes act as sets for a specific control toggle. While it can take more code, it would probably help you to use a generic routine to write to the SAM control register where you specify the actual control word rather than bytes. *Enter with regA equal to the 7-bit SAM value, regB = 7, regX=1st SAM byte *Leave with SAM set for some video offset * $E00/$200=7 LDA #7 the above result JSR SETSAM ... Program code * Video offset controller for PMODEs SETSAM LDB #7 for 7-bit word LDX $FFC6 first SAM offset byte SAMLUP RORA BCC SAM2 LEAX 1,X STA ,X+ BRA SAM3 SAM2 STA ,X++ SAM3 DECB BNE SAMLUP RTS The above routine can be used to setup the SAM for any video location merely by changing the value in regA. The same type of routine can be used to set any SAM mode ($FFC0-$FFC5) just by loading regB with 3 and regX with $FFC0. Fedor Steeman wrote: > Hi all, > > I have been studying Chris Lomont's reference guide and, combined with your > help, I am starting to come to grips with it. One thing I don't get yet, > though, is how to switch from one graphics mode to another. I tried simply > appending the following to the already written code, but that doesn't do > anything noticeable: > > > LDA #$E8 * load 1110 1000 > STA VDGSET * set pmode 3 > > Also: how to set the equivalent of SCREEN 1,0 / 1,1 commands? > > This is my complete code so far: > > TXTSCR EQU $0400 *Start of text screen > HIRES1 EQU $E00 *Start of hi-res graphics screen > VDGSET EQU $FF22 *PIA1 data port B: VDG Control output > V0CLR EQU $FFC0 *Clear bit for Sam Chip (Graphics mode) > V1SET EQU $FFC3 *Set V1 bit in Sam Chip (Graphics mode) > V2SET EQU $FFC5 *set V2 bit in Sam Chip (Graphics mode) > F0CLR EQU $FFC6 *Display Offset Binary, This is the CLR Bit > (Video page offset) > F0SET EQU $FFC7 > F1SET EQU $FFC9 > F2SET EQU $FFCB > POLCAT EQU $A000 *Color Basic rom poll keyboard routine > > ORG $7000 > START LDX #HIRES1 > LDD #$AAAA > LOOP1 STD ,X++ > CMPX #HIRES1+$1800 > BCS LOOP1 > GMODE STA V0CLR * set graphics mode > STA V1SET * set graphics mode > STA V2SET * set graphics mode > LDA #$F8 * load 1111 1000 > STA F0SET * set graphics mode > STA F1SET * set graphics mode > STA F2SET * set graphics mode > STA VDGSET * set pmode 4 equivalent > JMP $ADFB * wait for keypress > LDA #$E8 * load 1110 1000 > STA VDGSET * set pmode 3 equivalent? > JMP $ADFB > END START > > Thanks for any input! > > Cheers, > Fedor > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > From operator at coco3.com Sat Dec 20 15:27:41 2008 From: operator at coco3.com (Roger Taylor) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 14:27:41 -0600 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet status In-Reply-To: <574910.27178.qm@web30207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20081220145820.1999520A15@qs281.pair.com> <574910.27178.qm@web30207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20081220202808.B268920A14@qs281.pair.com> At 09:09 AM 12/20/2008, you wrote: >I was thinking of getting a Drive Wire set up but this sounds like >it will do what Drivewire does and more. Is this true or am I making >a wrong assumption. My main goal would be to mount RS-DOS and OS-9 >disk images saved on my PC, have them be read and write enabled >while also being able to use my Real Floppy drives on my coco III at >the same time. Will CoCoNet do all this? Yes, CoCoNet includes virtual drives @ 57600 bps and 115200 bps. You mount them from the CoCo so you won't have to move back and forth between the CoCo and PC. You can mount by pathname which can be the PC path to the .dsk file or a web URL. Web disks are copied to a local disk so if you write to them, you're writing to your own copy of the disk. Writing to the web copy isn't possible. I'm working to put a choose and click menu in which would let you explore the PC directories similar to how the PORT.EXE program does. You'd be able to use the arrow keys and SPACE or ENTER to navigate around and mount disks by hitting 0-3 next to the entry. The physical drives can be turned on and off. Only the standard 4 drives are supported at this time since CoCoNet doesn't attempt to super-patch the Disk ROM that far. I know how, but it would go beyond the scope of what I want the system to do. Anyone can further patch if they want to. -- Roger Taylor http://www.wordofthedayonline.com From tjseagrove at writeme.com Sat Dec 20 15:45:12 2008 From: tjseagrove at writeme.com (Tom Seagrove) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 15:45:12 -0500 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet status In-Reply-To: <20081220202808.B268920A14@qs281.pair.com> References: <20081220145820.1999520A15@qs281.pair.com> <574910.27178.qm@web30207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20081220202808.B268920A14@qs281.pair.com> Message-ID: <002b01c962e3$db58d4e0$920a7ea0$@com> And I am assuming you will make this emulator compatible as well so it will also run inside them?? :) -----Original Message----- From: coco-bounces at maltedmedia.com [mailto:coco-bounces at maltedmedia.com] On Behalf Of Roger Taylor Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 3:28 PM To: CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts Subject: Re: [Coco] CoCoNet status At 09:09 AM 12/20/2008, you wrote: >I was thinking of getting a Drive Wire set up but this sounds like >it will do what Drivewire does and more. Is this true or am I making >a wrong assumption. My main goal would be to mount RS-DOS and OS-9 >disk images saved on my PC, have them be read and write enabled >while also being able to use my Real Floppy drives on my coco III at >the same time. Will CoCoNet do all this? Yes, CoCoNet includes virtual drives @ 57600 bps and 115200 bps. You mount them from the CoCo so you won't have to move back and forth between the CoCo and PC. You can mount by pathname which can be the PC path to the .dsk file or a web URL. Web disks are copied to a local disk so if you write to them, you're writing to your own copy of the disk. Writing to the web copy isn't possible. I'm working to put a choose and click menu in which would let you explore the PC directories similar to how the PORT.EXE program does. You'd be able to use the arrow keys and SPACE or ENTER to navigate around and mount disks by hitting 0-3 next to the entry. The physical drives can be turned on and off. Only the standard 4 drives are supported at this time since CoCoNet doesn't attempt to super-patch the Disk ROM that far. I know how, but it would go beyond the scope of what I want the system to do. Anyone can further patch if they want to. -- Roger Taylor http://www.wordofthedayonline.com -- Coco mailing list Coco at maltedmedia.com http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.19/1857 - Release Date: 12/20/2008 2:34 PM From operator at coco3.com Sat Dec 20 15:52:32 2008 From: operator at coco3.com (Roger Taylor) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 14:52:32 -0600 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet status In-Reply-To: <002b01c962e3$db58d4e0$920a7ea0$@com> References: <20081220145820.1999520A15@qs281.pair.com> <574910.27178.qm@web30207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20081220202808.B268920A14@qs281.pair.com> <002b01c962e3$db58d4e0$920a7ea0$@com> Message-ID: <20081220205259.D797920A14@qs281.pair.com> At 02:45 PM 12/20/2008, you wrote: >And I am assuming you will make this emulator compatible as well so it will >also run inside them?? :) I'm not sure what "them" means. Please be more specific. -- Roger Taylor http://www.wordofthedayonline.com From tjseagrove at writeme.com Sat Dec 20 15:55:31 2008 From: tjseagrove at writeme.com (Tom Seagrove) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 15:55:31 -0500 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet status In-Reply-To: <20081220205259.D797920A14@qs281.pair.com> References: <20081220145820.1999520A15@qs281.pair.com> <574910.27178.qm@web30207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20081220202808.B268920A14@qs281.pair.com> <002b01c962e3$db58d4e0$920a7ea0$@com> <20081220205259.D797920A14@qs281.pair.com> Message-ID: <002c01c962e5$4c0ec900$e42c5b00$@com> "them" refers to the previously mentioned noun "emulator" in the sentence. :) -----Original Message----- From: coco-bounces at maltedmedia.com [mailto:coco-bounces at maltedmedia.com] On Behalf Of Roger Taylor Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2008 3:53 PM To: CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts Subject: Re: [Coco] CoCoNet status At 02:45 PM 12/20/2008, you wrote: >And I am assuming you will make this emulator compatible as well so it will >also run inside them?? :) I'm not sure what "them" means. Please be more specific. -- Roger Taylor http://www.wordofthedayonline.com -- Coco mailing list Coco at maltedmedia.com http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.19/1857 - Release Date: 12/20/2008 2:34 PM From mechacoco at gmail.com Sat Dec 20 17:01:33 2008 From: mechacoco at gmail.com (Darren A) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 15:01:33 -0700 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet status In-Reply-To: <20081220202808.B268920A14@qs281.pair.com> References: <20081220145820.1999520A15@qs281.pair.com> <574910.27178.qm@web30207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20081220202808.B268920A14@qs281.pair.com> Message-ID: <5d802cd0812201401o45a4b219m1b90d7b6b62d59f9@mail.gmail.com> Is this for BASIC only, or will you be providing boot loaders and drivers for OS-9 and/or NitrOS-9? Darren ---- On 12/20/08, Roger Taylor wrote: > At 09:09 AM 12/20/2008, you wrote: >>I was thinking of getting a Drive Wire set up but this sounds like >>it will do what Drivewire does and more. Is this true or am I making >>a wrong assumption. My main goal would be to mount RS-DOS and OS-9 >>disk images saved on my PC, have them be read and write enabled >>while also being able to use my Real Floppy drives on my coco III at >>the same time. Will CoCoNet do all this? > > > Yes, CoCoNet includes virtual drives @ 57600 bps and 115200 bps. You > mount them from the CoCo so you won't have to move back and forth > between the CoCo and PC. You can mount by pathname which can be the > PC path to the .dsk file or a web URL. Web disks are copied to a > local disk so if you write to them, you're writing to your own copy > of the disk. Writing to the web copy isn't possible. I'm working to > put a choose and click menu in which would let you explore the PC > directories similar to how the PORT.EXE program does. You'd be able > to use the arrow keys and SPACE or ENTER to navigate around and mount > disks by hitting 0-3 next to the entry. > > The physical drives can be turned on and off. Only the standard 4 > drives are supported at this time since CoCoNet doesn't attempt to > super-patch the Disk ROM that far. I know how, but it would go > beyond the scope of what I want the system to do. Anyone can further > patch if they want to. > > > -- > Roger Taylor > From deemcr at robinson-west.com Sat Dec 20 18:27:23 2008 From: deemcr at robinson-west.com (Michael Robinson) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 15:27:23 -0800 Subject: [Coco] Power Stones of Ard II... Message-ID: <1229815644.3432.0.camel@eagle.robinson-west.com> Tower 3 level 2, anyone? From operator at coco3.com Sun Dec 21 00:53:50 2008 From: operator at coco3.com (Roger Taylor) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 23:53:50 -0600 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet status In-Reply-To: <002c01c962e5$4c0ec900$e42c5b00$@com> References: <20081220145820.1999520A15@qs281.pair.com> <574910.27178.qm@web30207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20081220202808.B268920A14@qs281.pair.com> <002b01c962e3$db58d4e0$920a7ea0$@com> <20081220205259.D797920A14@qs281.pair.com> <002c01c962e5$4c0ec900$e42c5b00$@com> Message-ID: <20081221055419.8D1B320A15@qs281.pair.com> At 02:55 PM 12/20/2008, you wrote: >"them" refers to the previously mentioned noun "emulator" in the sentence. >:) You asked if I was going to make this emulator compatible so that *it* will also run inside of *them*. Did you mean "emulator-compatible", as in compatible with the CoCo emulators running on PC's, or were you calling CoCoNet a drive emulator? I'm really not sure what you're asking. -- Roger Taylor http://www.wordofthedayonline.com From operator at coco3.com Sun Dec 21 00:57:18 2008 From: operator at coco3.com (Roger Taylor) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 23:57:18 -0600 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet status In-Reply-To: <5d802cd0812201401o45a4b219m1b90d7b6b62d59f9@mail.gmail.com > References: <20081220145820.1999520A15@qs281.pair.com> <574910.27178.qm@web30207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20081220202808.B268920A14@qs281.pair.com> <5d802cd0812201401o45a4b219m1b90d7b6b62d59f9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081221055832.8686520A19@qs281.pair.com> At 04:01 PM 12/20/2008, you wrote: >Is this for BASIC only, or will you be providing boot loaders and >drivers for OS-9 and/or NitrOS-9? > >Darren I haven't gotten into OS-9 support yet. Disk BASIC gets some enhanced commands that are fast like any other, so I'm happy with the speed I'm seeing. -- Roger Taylor http://www.wordofthedayonline.com From tjseagrove at writeme.com Sun Dec 21 07:59:33 2008 From: tjseagrove at writeme.com (Tom Seagrove) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 07:59:33 -0500 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet status In-Reply-To: <20081221055419.8D1B320A15@qs281.pair.com> References: <20081220145820.1999520A15@qs281.pair.com> <574910.27178.qm@web30207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20081220202808.B268920A14@qs281.pair.com> <002b01c962e3$db58d4e0$920a7ea0$@com> <20081220205259.D797920A14@qs281.pair.com> <002c01c962e5$4c0ec900$e42c5b00$@com> <20081221055419.8D1B320A15@qs281.pair.com> Message-ID: <004201c9636b$f97143d0$ec53cb70$@com> My wording can get tangled up...I meant to ask if it will work under emulation on a PC the same way it works on the real coco... Tom -----Original Message----- From: coco-bounces at maltedmedia.com [mailto:coco-bounces at maltedmedia.com] On Behalf Of Roger Taylor Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 12:54 AM To: CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts Subject: Re: [Coco] CoCoNet status At 02:55 PM 12/20/2008, you wrote: >"them" refers to the previously mentioned noun "emulator" in the sentence. >:) You asked if I was going to make this emulator compatible so that *it* will also run inside of *them*. Did you mean "emulator-compatible", as in compatible with the CoCo emulators running on PC's, or were you calling CoCoNet a drive emulator? I'm really not sure what you're asking. -- Roger Taylor http://www.wordofthedayonline.com -- Coco mailing list Coco at maltedmedia.com http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.19/1857 - Release Date: 12/20/2008 2:34 PM From operator at coco3.com Sun Dec 21 10:08:36 2008 From: operator at coco3.com (Roger Taylor) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 09:08:36 -0600 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet status In-Reply-To: <004201c9636b$f97143d0$ec53cb70$@com> References: <20081220145820.1999520A15@qs281.pair.com> <574910.27178.qm@web30207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20081220202808.B268920A14@qs281.pair.com> <002b01c962e3$db58d4e0$920a7ea0$@com> <20081220205259.D797920A14@qs281.pair.com> <002c01c962e5$4c0ec900$e42c5b00$@com> <20081221055419.8D1B320A15@qs281.pair.com> <004201c9636b$f97143d0$ec53cb70$@com> Message-ID: <20081221150907.0FF6B20A14@qs281.pair.com> At 06:59 AM 12/21/2008, you wrote: >My wording can get tangled up...I meant to ask if it will work under >emulation on a PC the same way it works on the real coco... > >Tom If the PC-based CoCo emulator can link it's bitbanger port (emulated, ofcourse) to one of the PC's COM ports, it just might work. I'll have to try it out after Xmas. -- Roger Taylor http://www.wordofthedayonline.com From Torsten at Dittel.info Sun Dec 21 10:38:31 2008 From: Torsten at Dittel.info (Torsten Dittel) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 16:38:31 +0100 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet status In-Reply-To: <004201c9636b$f97143d0$ec53cb70$@com> References: <20081220145820.1999520A15@qs281.pair.com> <574910.27178.qm@web30207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20081220202808.B268920A14@qs281.pair.com> <002b01c962e3$db58d4e0$920a7ea0$@com> <20081220205259.D797920A14@qs281.pair.com> <002c01c962e5$4c0ec900$e42c5b00$@com> <20081221055419.8D1B320A15@qs281.pair.com> <004201c9636b$f97143d0$ec53cb70$@com> Message-ID: Tom Seagrove schrieb: > My wording can get tangled up...I meant to ask if it will work under > emulation on a PC the same way it works on the real coco... I guess you're talking about the following scenario: [Instead of connecting a real CoCo with CoCoNet-ROM via serial cable (CoCo: Bit Banger port) to PC (PC: RS-232 serial port) running CoCoNet PC-software], you want to run a CoCo emulator on the PC (with "virtual" CoCoNet ROM providing the new commands), and the CoCoNet PC-software on the same PC. Sounds interesting. However, is there any current CoCo emulator providing bit banger port emulation? I'm not aware of any (could be done using bi-directional parallel port I/O lines (difficult under Windows XP then) and an external MAX232-like circuit, but should be extremely timing critical with 115kb/s (I don't think any CoCo emulator's timing is accurate enough, even on the fastest PC and with a (hypothtically) interrupt-free OS). The emulated "Parallel Port Bit-Banger" would then be connected via Null-Modem cable to the same PC's serial port. Another approach: CoCoNet would support an RS-232-Deluxe PAK (and the like, maybe even an ACIA supporting the 115kb/s) too, instead of the bit-banger port (would be anyway nice to have CoCoNet-ROM installed on a Deluxe-PAK for that purpose, replacing the original ROM). I darkly remember, there are CoCo emulators out emulating the Deluxe-PAK by routing the PAK's serial I/O to the PC's serial port. Then you could run all on the same PC like described above, using either a Null-Modem cable connecting two PC serial ports, or even by a (to be done) virtual (cable-less) COM scenario, cross-linking two virtual serial COM ports under Windows. Regards, Torsten From operator at coco3.com Sun Dec 21 11:04:46 2008 From: operator at coco3.com (Roger Taylor) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 10:04:46 -0600 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet status In-Reply-To: References: <20081220145820.1999520A15@qs281.pair.com> <574910.27178.qm@web30207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20081220202808.B268920A14@qs281.pair.com> <002b01c962e3$db58d4e0$920a7ea0$@com> <20081220205259.D797920A14@qs281.pair.com> <002c01c962e5$4c0ec900$e42c5b00$@com> <20081221055419.8D1B320A15@qs281.pair.com> <004201c9636b$f97143d0$ec53cb70$@com> Message-ID: <20081221160518.297BD20A14@qs281.pair.com> At 09:38 AM 12/21/2008, you wrote: >Tom Seagrove schrieb: >>My wording can get tangled up...I meant to ask if it will work under >>emulation on a PC the same way it works on the real coco... > >I guess you're talking about the following scenario: > >[Instead of connecting a real CoCo with CoCoNet-ROM via serial cable >(CoCo: Bit Banger port) to PC (PC: RS-232 serial port) running >CoCoNet PC-software], you want to run a CoCo emulator on the PC >(with "virtual" CoCoNet ROM providing the new commands), and the >CoCoNet PC-software on the same PC. > >Sounds interesting. > >However, is there any current CoCo emulator providing bit banger >port emulation? I'm not aware of any (could be done using >bi-directional parallel port I/O lines (difficult under Windows XP >then) and an external MAX232-like circuit, but should be extremely >timing critical with 115kb/s (I don't think any CoCo emulator's >timing is accurate enough, even on the fastest PC and with a >(hypothtically) interrupt-free OS). The emulated "Parallel Port >Bit-Banger" would then be connected via Null-Modem cable to the same >PC's serial port. > >Another approach: CoCoNet would support an RS-232-Deluxe PAK That's already on the to-do list. It's not a big challenge so I'm trying to get past the internet stuff first. > (and the like, maybe even an ACIA supporting the 115kb/s) too, > instead of the bit-banger port (would be anyway nice to have > CoCoNet-ROM installed on a Deluxe-PAK for that purpose, replacing > the original ROM). It would have to have a 28-pin socket as of right now. > I darkly remember, there are CoCo emulators out emulating the > Deluxe-PAK by routing the PAK's serial I/O to the PC's serial port. > Then you could run all on the same PC like described above, using > either a Null-Modem cable connecting two PC serial ports, or even > by a (to be done) virtual (cable-less) COM scenario, cross-linking > two virtual serial COM ports under Windows. > > >Regards, >Torsten > > >-- >Coco mailing list >Coco at maltedmedia.com >http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco -- Roger Taylor http://www.wordofthedayonline.com From mechacoco at gmail.com Sun Dec 21 12:17:16 2008 From: mechacoco at gmail.com (Darren A) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 10:17:16 -0700 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet status In-Reply-To: References: <20081220145820.1999520A15@qs281.pair.com> <574910.27178.qm@web30207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20081220202808.B268920A14@qs281.pair.com> <002b01c962e3$db58d4e0$920a7ea0$@com> <20081220205259.D797920A14@qs281.pair.com> <002c01c962e5$4c0ec900$e42c5b00$@com> <20081221055419.8D1B320A15@qs281.pair.com> <004201c9636b$f97143d0$ec53cb70$@com> Message-ID: <5d802cd0812210917n55a3985cmf4b9c867315ef5ed@mail.gmail.com> I believe bit banger emulation in MESS is restricted to printer output only. A quick scan of the MESS source code (devices directory) didn't reveal anything that would indicate support for emulation of an RS232 pak. The VCC emulator currently lacks support for these devices as well. David Keil's emulator supports the bit banger, but it's not clear to me if it handles bidirectional I/O, or output only. It also emulates the RS232 pak at baud rates up to 19200. Darren --- On 12/21/08, Torsten Dittel wrote: > > I guess you're talking about the following scenario: > > [Instead of connecting a real CoCo with CoCoNet-ROM via serial cable > (CoCo: Bit Banger port) to PC (PC: RS-232 serial port) running CoCoNet > PC-software], you want to run a CoCo emulator on the PC (with "virtual" > CoCoNet ROM providing the new commands), and the CoCoNet PC-software on > the same PC. > > Sounds interesting. > > However, is there any current CoCo emulator providing bit banger port > emulation? I'm not aware of any (could be done using bi-directional > parallel port I/O lines (difficult under Windows XP then) and an > external MAX232-like circuit, but should be extremely timing critical > with 115kb/s (I don't think any CoCo emulator's timing is accurate > enough, even on the fastest PC and with a (hypothtically) interrupt-free > OS). The emulated "Parallel Port Bit-Banger" would then be connected via > Null-Modem cable to the same PC's serial port. > > Another approach: CoCoNet would support an RS-232-Deluxe PAK (and the > like, maybe even an ACIA supporting the 115kb/s) too, instead of the > bit-banger port (would be anyway nice to have CoCoNet-ROM installed on a > Deluxe-PAK for that purpose, replacing the original ROM). I darkly > remember, there are CoCo emulators out emulating the Deluxe-PAK by > routing the PAK's serial I/O to the PC's serial port. Then you could run > all on the same PC like described above, using either a Null-Modem cable > connecting two PC serial ports, or even by a (to be done) virtual > (cable-less) COM scenario, cross-linking two virtual serial COM ports > under Windows. > > > Regards, > Torsten > > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > From tjseagrove at writeme.com Sun Dec 21 12:49:04 2008 From: tjseagrove at writeme.com (Tom Seagrove) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 12:49:04 -0500 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet status In-Reply-To: <5d802cd0812210917n55a3985cmf4b9c867315ef5ed@mail.gmail.com> References: <20081220145820.1999520A15@qs281.pair.com> <574910.27178.qm@web30207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20081220202808.B268920A14@qs281.pair.com> <002b01c962e3$db58d4e0$920a7ea0$@com> <20081220205259.D797920A14@qs281.pair.com> <002c01c962e5$4c0ec900$e42c5b00$@com> <20081221055419.8D1B320A15@qs281.pair.com> <004201c9636b$f97143d0$ec53cb70$@com> <5d802cd0812210917n55a3985cmf4b9c867315ef5ed@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000c01c96394$6a7175a0$3f5460e0$@com> My further thought along the emulator line was that there could be a repository of games and apps all on DSK images located out on the internet and sorted in a very strict manner. I carry VCC around on a thumb drive with some DSK images and that would free me to have access to a whole repository of images from any net connected pc. Could prove a fun project as it develops over time. Appreciate all the things you do for the community Roger, you help to keep things alive and push the envelope.... Tom -----Original Message----- From: coco-bounces at maltedmedia.com [mailto:coco-bounces at maltedmedia.com] On Behalf Of Darren A Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 12:17 PM To: CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts Subject: Re: [Coco] CoCoNet status I believe bit banger emulation in MESS is restricted to printer output only. A quick scan of the MESS source code (devices directory) didn't reveal anything that would indicate support for emulation of an RS232 pak. The VCC emulator currently lacks support for these devices as well. David Keil's emulator supports the bit banger, but it's not clear to me if it handles bidirectional I/O, or output only. It also emulates the RS232 pak at baud rates up to 19200. Darren --- On 12/21/08, Torsten Dittel wrote: > > I guess you're talking about the following scenario: > > [Instead of connecting a real CoCo with CoCoNet-ROM via serial cable > (CoCo: Bit Banger port) to PC (PC: RS-232 serial port) running CoCoNet > PC-software], you want to run a CoCo emulator on the PC (with "virtual" > CoCoNet ROM providing the new commands), and the CoCoNet PC-software on > the same PC. > > Sounds interesting. > > However, is there any current CoCo emulator providing bit banger port > emulation? I'm not aware of any (could be done using bi-directional > parallel port I/O lines (difficult under Windows XP then) and an > external MAX232-like circuit, but should be extremely timing critical > with 115kb/s (I don't think any CoCo emulator's timing is accurate > enough, even on the fastest PC and with a (hypothtically) interrupt-free > OS). The emulated "Parallel Port Bit-Banger" would then be connected via > Null-Modem cable to the same PC's serial port. > > Another approach: CoCoNet would support an RS-232-Deluxe PAK (and the > like, maybe even an ACIA supporting the 115kb/s) too, instead of the > bit-banger port (would be anyway nice to have CoCoNet-ROM installed on a > Deluxe-PAK for that purpose, replacing the original ROM). I darkly > remember, there are CoCo emulators out emulating the Deluxe-PAK by > routing the PAK's serial I/O to the PC's serial port. Then you could run > all on the same PC like described above, using either a Null-Modem cable > connecting two PC serial ports, or even by a (to be done) virtual > (cable-less) COM scenario, cross-linking two virtual serial COM ports > under Windows. > > > Regards, > Torsten > > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > -- Coco mailing list Coco at maltedmedia.com http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.9.19/1859 - Release Date: 12/20/2008 2:34 PM From operator at coco3.com Sun Dec 21 16:05:24 2008 From: operator at coco3.com (Roger Taylor) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 15:05:24 -0600 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet status In-Reply-To: <000c01c96394$6a7175a0$3f5460e0$@com> References: <20081220145820.1999520A15@qs281.pair.com> <574910.27178.qm@web30207.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20081220202808.B268920A14@qs281.pair.com> <002b01c962e3$db58d4e0$920a7ea0$@com> <20081220205259.D797920A14@qs281.pair.com> <002c01c962e5$4c0ec900$e42c5b00$@com> <20081221055419.8D1B320A15@qs281.pair.com> <004201c9636b$f97143d0$ec53cb70$@com> <5d802cd0812210917n55a3985cmf4b9c867315ef5ed@mail.gmail.com> <000c01c96394$6a7175a0$3f5460e0$@com> Message-ID: <20081221210558.2600620A14@qs281.pair.com> At 11:49 AM 12/21/2008, you wrote: >My further thought along the emulator line was that there could be a >repository of games and apps all on DSK images located out on the internet >and sorted in a very strict manner. I carry VCC around on a thumb drive >with some DSK images and that would free me to have access to a whole >repository of images from any net connected pc. Could prove a fun project >as it develops over time. > >Appreciate all the things you do for the community Roger, you help to keep >things alive and push the envelope.... > >Tom Support for the real CoCo will be the first focus but hopefully one of the emulators, perhaps VCC since it's the latest-active, will have a CoCo bitbanger to PC COM port translator with precise timing. That would give the emulated CoCo running CoCoNet the ability to still use virtual drives on the PC, the web, and to download web pages and files to virtual disks. In other words, it would all work the same as on a real CoCo. The 5-feet CoCoNet cables will be ready in a few weeks. My socketed ROM paks won't be available probably until the middle of February. Without a socketed floppy controller or some other type of cartridge with a 28-pin ROM socket in it, you'll either need my pak or an existing Disk BASIC 1.1 floppy system, a 64k CoCo 2, or a CoCo 3. The CoCo 2 has to be put in ALL-RAM mode before you can LOADM the DOS patches. A CoCo 3 is already ready to LOADM the client patches. After LOADM'ing the client into the Disk BASIC 1.1 ROM area, you don't need to EXEC anything. The patches are also done orderly and safely so you don't have to worry about crashes. The CoCo is ready whether you LOADM'ed the client or you booted up with a patched Disk BASIC 1.1 ROM. I haven't made a Disk BASIC 1.0 patch yet. Is anyone using 1.0 ?? -- Roger Taylor http://www.wordofthedayonline.com From dml_68 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 21 19:31:22 2008 From: dml_68 at yahoo.com (Derek) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 16:31:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Coco] Coco Clipboard Magazine Scans now Archived Message-ID: <714144.60672.qm@web30202.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Thanks to Grandpa John for this set of CoCo Clipboard Magazines! He has been scanning and sharing a lot of important coco items. You can download this set here: http://rapidshare.com/files/175574124/coco_clipboard_magazine_scans.rar Thanks again to John for all the hard work and getting these to me for the archives! Happy Holidays to all! ** Mistrust Authority. Promote Decentralization ** From operator at coco3.com Sun Dec 21 23:11:30 2008 From: operator at coco3.com (Roger Taylor) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 22:11:30 -0600 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet is CoCo 3 ready Message-ID: <20081222041205.3374F20A14@qs281.pair.com> So far, a 64k CoCo 2 or a CoCo 3 gladly accepts the CoCoNet ROM Pak, starts up into Disk BASIC 1.1 or 2.1, and you can immediately type DIR to see the default mounted virtual disk on the PC. Or you could immediately type something like SAVEW "HTTP://WWW.COCO3.COM/somescript.php","RESULTS.HTM" , for example to grab a file from the web. Things start out in 57600 bps mode. In order for the server to know what speed you're running at, I'm going to enhanced the DRIVE command or some other to allow the sending of a Fast or Slow notification. The PC-side server would then reset the COM port to either 57600 bps or 115200 bps. Both 57.6 kbps and 115.2 kbps speeds through the bitbanger port are amazing. Some issues I need to resolve are sync problems that could arrise if something like SAVEW fails or hangs or times out on either end. I'm looking into whether the CoCo can send a Line Break using a command so that if the server is stuck in some routine waiting on the CoCo to finish what it was supposed to be doing before, etc. the server should resync. Other issues: 64k CoCo 2 users who choose to use the LOADM patches for Disk BASIC will probably have to reload the CoCo client if they run a game or something that totally screws with the system or makes you have to either RESET or power down. Perhaps a POKE 65503,0 to go back into All-RAM mode will bring her back without having to reload anything. CoCo 3's using the LOADM patch will probably get wiped out to the original Disk ROM copy if they hit RESET. CoCo 2's and 3's using the ROM in a Pak or controller don't have to worry about hitting RESET or powering off/on. CoCoNet is always there and ready. So the idea is to get a ROM copy (or make your own) for best results. Disto Super Controller users who have an original Disk BASIC ROM in one slot and the CoCoNet ROM in any slot other than the first (0), can POKE 65345,x where x is the ROM Slot # for CoCoNet, and this switches CoCoNet in seamlessly without having to do a warm start. This works on a CoCo 2 but I haven't tried it on the 3 just yet. Just put CoCoNet in ROM socket 0 and you won't have to worry about any of that. Hang in there... it's coming. The rest of the cable parts will be here tomorrow and I'll start on those shortly after Xmas. -- Roger Taylor http://www.wordofthedayonline.com From operator at coco3.com Sun Dec 21 23:25:24 2008 From: operator at coco3.com (Roger Taylor) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 22:25:24 -0600 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet is CoCo 3 ready In-Reply-To: <20081222041205.3374F20A14@qs281.pair.com> References: <20081222041205.3374F20A14@qs281.pair.com> Message-ID: <20081222042553.550B720A14@qs281.pair.com> Correction: On a CoCo 3 with a Super Controller with the CoCoNet in a socket 1-3, you have to POKE 113,0 and hit RESET. Apprently, simply a POKE 65345,x doesn't switch in the other ROMs on a CoCo 3. Putting CoCoNet in socket 0 solves that inconvenience. -- Roger Taylor http://www.wordofthedayonline.com From operator at coco3.com Sun Dec 21 23:45:54 2008 From: operator at coco3.com (Roger Taylor) Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2008 22:45:54 -0600 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet is CoCo 3 ready In-Reply-To: <20081222042553.550B720A14@qs281.pair.com> References: <20081222041205.3374F20A14@qs281.pair.com> <20081222042553.550B720A14@qs281.pair.com> Message-ID: <20081222044623.8EDB220A16@qs281.pair.com> At 10:25 PM 12/21/2008, you wrote: >Correction: > >On a CoCo 3 with a Super Controller with the CoCoNet in a socket >1-3, you have to POKE 113,0 and hit RESET. Apprently, simply a POKE >65345,x doesn't switch in the other ROMs on a CoCo 3. Putting >CoCoNet in socket 0 solves that inconvenience. Adding to THIS, I just found that further hitting RESET keeps CoCoNet (or any other socketed ROM 1-3) switched in. I was under the impression that RESET switched back to socket 0. Maybe someone could tell me more about this behavior on a CoCo 2 and 3. -- Roger Taylor http://www.wordofthedayonline.com From devries.bob at gmail.com Fri Dec 19 19:45:34 2008 From: devries.bob at gmail.com (Bob Devries) Date: Sat, 20 Dec 2008 10:45:34 +1000 Subject: [Coco] Assembly help: Corrupted bin file ? References: Message-ID: <015c01c963f8$81749430$6700a8c0@aceraspire> Hmm, from memory, an END statement is required to force the assembler to generate the post-amble (FF 00 00 XX XX). As well, the END statement should have a label after it pointing to the EXEC point. so that the XX XX will be properly completed. (yeah, I know, this has already been answered.... I just thought I'd throw in my 2c.... My internet access is somewhat intermittent from Mindanao. A couple of weeks and I'll be back in good old Australia). ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fedor Steeman" To: "CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts" Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 5:30 PM Subject: [Coco] Assembly help: Corrupted bin file ? > Hello everyone, > > I am still trying to learn assembly language but keep on running into > problems. > > I have been trying to have the following source code assembled: > > VIDRAM EQU $0400 *Start of Video Display location > V0CLR EQU $FFC0 *Clear bit for Sam Chip (Graphics mode) > V1SET EQU $FFC3 *Set V1 bit in Sam Chip (Graphics mode) > V2SET EQU $FFC5 *set V2 bit in Sam Chip (Graphics mode) > VOFSET EQU $FFC6 *Display Offset Binary, This is the CLR Bit > (Video page offset) > VDGSET EQU $FF22 *PIA1 data port B: VDG Control output > POLCAT EQU $A000 *Color Basic rom poll keyboard routine > > ORG $21FD > LDX #VIDRAM *331D: 8E 04 00 > LDD $AAAA *3320: CC AA AA > Z3323 STD ,X++ *3323: ED 81 > CMPX #$1C00 *3325: 8C 1C 00 > BCS Z3323 *3328: 25 F9 > NOP *332A: 12 > PMODE4 STA V0CLR *2787: B7 FF C0 > STA V1SET *278A: B7 FF C3 > STA V2SET *278D: B7 FF C5 > LDA #$F8 *2790: 86 F8 > STA VDGSET *2792: B7 FF 22 > STA VOFSET *2795: B7 FF C6 > JSR [POLCAT] *332E: AD 9F A0 00 > RTS *3332: > > Using Roger Taylor's CCASM (as included in RainbowIDE) I get the following > binary file: > > 00 00 24 21 FD 8E 04 00 FC AA AA ED 81 8C 1C 00 > 25 F9 12 B7 FF C0 B7 FF C3 B7 FF C5 86 F8 B7 FF > 22 B7 FF C6 AD 9F A0 00 39 > > When I try to run this binary file using the VCC emulator I get an error > message stating that the binary file is corrupt. > > Can anyone help me try to understand whether there is anything wrong with > my > source code, the assembler (i.e. the resulting binary file) or the > emulator? > > Thanks in advance! > > Cheers, > Fedor > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco From devries.bob at gmail.com Mon Dec 22 00:57:10 2008 From: devries.bob at gmail.com (Bob Devries) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 15:57:10 +1000 Subject: [Coco] Merry Christmas from Mindanao Message-ID: <01a801c963fa$25d61250$6700a8c0@aceraspire> Hello all. Merry Christmas to you all from Licapao, Tubod, Lanao del Norte, Philippines. I hope you all have a great Christmas; may all your Christmas wishes come true! :) I will be here on Mindanao Island for Christmas, and returning to Manila on Saturday, and then returning to Australia on January 1. God be with you all. Regards, Bob Devries PS: You may have heard about rebel activity here on Mindanao. That occurred about 100 kilometers away, and involved none of my family or friends, Thank God. R. From Torsten at Dittel.info Mon Dec 22 02:59:12 2008 From: Torsten at Dittel.info (Torsten Dittel) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 08:59:12 +0100 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet is CoCo 3 ready In-Reply-To: <20081222044623.8EDB220A16@qs281.pair.com> References: <20081222041205.3374F20A14@qs281.pair.com> <20081222042553.550B720A14@qs281.pair.com> <20081222044623.8EDB220A16@qs281.pair.com> Message-ID: I hardly remember that using corresponding POKE (65345?), you could instruct the MPI, from which slot to select the ROM, overriding the MPI-switch setting. However, I don't remember what happened on a "button" reset. Would it fall back to the one selected by the MPI-switch? Any difference to that behaviour on a 6809 "opcode" reset or on powering the CoCo only down and up again (MPI stays powered on)? Does anyone remember what happened with the I/O addresses with an MPI? I assume even using an MPI, it was not possible to have two or more cartridges sharing the same I/O adress(es). I/O was always a kind of "wired or" (like a Y-cable), no chance to independently select a single (or a combination of) slot(s) for I/O (e.g. select ROM from slot 3, I/O from slot 1 and 2, but not 0 & 3). By the way, what is the CoCo3 MPI-patch doing? Does it have any impact on MPI-behaviour, if a CoCo3-modified MPI is connected to the CoCo2? Thanks for clarifying, Torsten From Torsten at Dittel.info Mon Dec 22 03:08:43 2008 From: Torsten at Dittel.info (Torsten Dittel) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 09:08:43 +0100 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet is CoCo 3 ready In-Reply-To: <20081222041205.3374F20A14@qs281.pair.com> References: <20081222041205.3374F20A14@qs281.pair.com> Message-ID: Roger Taylor schrieb: > type something like SAVEW > "HTTP://WWW.COCO3.COM/somescript.php","RESULTS.HTM" , for example to > grab a file from the web. Hmmm... guess I didn't catch the SAVEW/LOADW syntax. Why do I "grab" something from the web, if SAVEWing? I would expect SAVEW = "upload", LOADW = "download" (or "grap"). And what about the second parameter? If "HTTP://WWW.COCO3.COM/somescript.php" is the source (on the web) which is then transferred to the CoCo's disk (destination file: "RESULTS.HTM"), this would rather be a COPYW command. Sorry for not following your previous posts on that (I guess you already explained the idea)... Regards, Torsten From operator at coco3.com Mon Dec 22 08:03:34 2008 From: operator at coco3.com (Roger Taylor) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 07:03:34 -0600 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet is CoCo 3 ready In-Reply-To: References: <20081222041205.3374F20A14@qs281.pair.com> <20081222042553.550B720A14@qs281.pair.com> <20081222044623.8EDB220A16@qs281.pair.com> Message-ID: <20081222130405.9FFEB20A14@qs281.pair.com> At 01:59 AM 12/22/2008, you wrote: >I hardly remember that using corresponding POKE (65345?), you could >instruct the MPI, from which slot to select the ROM, overriding the >MPI-switch setting. However, I don't remember what happened on a >"button" reset. I'm talking about the Disto Super Controller's ROM selector. My controller has 4 sockets for EPROMs. It now appears that just a simple POKE 65345,x and hitting RESET will switch in the CoCoNet ROM without having to warm start. It took me a while to figure out what was going on. -- Roger Taylor http://www.wordofthedayonline.com From operator at coco3.com Mon Dec 22 08:18:45 2008 From: operator at coco3.com (Roger Taylor) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 07:18:45 -0600 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet is CoCo 3 ready In-Reply-To: References: <20081222041205.3374F20A14@qs281.pair.com> Message-ID: <20081222131917.B0AD220A13@qs281.pair.com> At 02:08 AM 12/22/2008, you wrote: >Roger Taylor schrieb: >>type something like SAVEW >>"HTTP://WWW.COCO3.COM/somescript.php","RESULTS.HTM" , for example >>to grab a file from the web. > >Hmmm... guess I didn't catch the SAVEW/LOADW syntax. Why do I "grab" >something from the web, if SAVEWing? I would expect SAVEW = >"upload", LOADW = "download" (or "grap"). No uploading is supported yet. I didn't use LOAD for the command because no actual CoCo loading into RAM is being done. SAVEW fetches a page or file from the web and makes it available on one of your virtual disks withins seconds or even quicker. You choose the URL and you choose the CoCo disk filename to save the output as. You then open the CoCo disk file and do whatever with it. I suppose I can enhance the GET and PUT commands instead which makes more sense, and leave SAVE/LOAD along since it would become confusing without looking at some flowchart of what's actually happening. -- Roger Taylor http://www.wordofthedayonline.com From diegoba at adinet.com.uy Mon Dec 22 10:20:01 2008 From: diegoba at adinet.com.uy (Diego Barizo) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 13:20:01 -0200 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet is CoCo 3 ready In-Reply-To: <20081222130405.9FFEB20A14@qs281.pair.com> References: <20081222041205.3374F20A14@qs281.pair.com> <20081222042553.550B720A14@qs281.pair.com> <20081222044623.8EDB220A16@qs281.pair.com> <20081222130405.9FFEB20A14@qs281.pair.com> Message-ID: <494FB021.8060209@adinet.com.uy> Roger Taylor wrote: > At 01:59 AM 12/22/2008, you wrote: >> I hardly remember that using corresponding POKE (65345?), you could >> instruct the MPI, from which slot to select the ROM, overriding the >> MPI-switch setting. However, I don't remember what happened on a >> "button" reset. > > I'm talking about the Disto Super Controller's ROM selector. My > controller has 4 sockets for EPROMs. It now appears that just a > simple POKE 65345,x and hitting RESET will switch in the CoCoNet ROM > without having to warm start. It took me a while to figure out what > was going on. > I guess something similar could be achieved using Cloud-9's Super IDE, right? I should be able to load the patch from a disk, and then copy the patched ROM to one of the S.IDE flash banks. Has any test been done with this? Diego From mark at cloud9tech.com Mon Dec 22 10:53:30 2008 From: mark at cloud9tech.com (Mark Marlette) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 09:53:30 -0600 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet is CoCo 3 ready In-Reply-To: <494FB021.8060209@adinet.com.uy> References: <20081222041205.3374F20A14@qs281.pair.com> <20081222042553.550B720A14@qs281.pair.com> <20081222044623.8EDB220A16@qs281.pair.com> <20081222130405.9FFEB20A14@qs281.pair.com> <494FB021.8060209@adinet.com.uy> Message-ID: <6.2.5.6.2.20081222095228.02f4af18@cloud9tech.com> Diego, The SuperIDE's FLASH banks look just like a standard ROM, just writable. Regards, Mark Cloud-9 At 12/22/2008 09:20 AM, you wrote: >Roger Taylor wrote: >>At 01:59 AM 12/22/2008, you wrote: >>>I hardly remember that using corresponding POKE (65345?), you >>>could instruct the MPI, from which slot to select the ROM, >>>overriding the MPI-switch setting. However, I don't remember what >>>happened on a "button" reset. >> >>I'm talking about the Disto Super Controller's ROM selector. My >>controller has 4 sockets for EPROMs. It now appears that just a >>simple POKE 65345,x and hitting RESET will switch in the CoCoNet >>ROM without having to warm start. It took me a while to figure out >>what was going on. >I guess something similar could be achieved using Cloud-9's Super IDE, right? >I should be able to load the patch from a disk, and then copy the >patched ROM to one of the S.IDE flash banks. >Has any test been done with this? > >Diego > > >-- >Coco mailing list >Coco at maltedmedia.com >http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > > >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.0/1861 - Release Date: >12/22/2008 11:23 AM From bookworm at cavenet.com Mon Dec 22 18:43:55 2008 From: bookworm at cavenet.com (BookWorm) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 23:43:55 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Coco] Printing OS-9 Manuals Message-ID: Now that all those manuals are online, I've been downloading and printing a lot of them. Even double sided printing is easy. But how do I print the little ones? Most of Tandy's OS-9 manuals, including the OS itself, should be printed two pages to one sheet, but I'm having a little trouble figuring out how. I want to print, for example, pages 1 and 3 on one side, 2 and 4 on the other. Using Acrobat reader 7.05, I can't just pick what pages to print, and printing odd or even pages in a 4 page range gets them out of order. How do I keep them in order, and print exactly what I want? From flexser at fiu.edu Mon Dec 22 19:08:54 2008 From: flexser at fiu.edu (Art Flexser) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 19:08:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet is CoCo 3 ready In-Reply-To: <20081222130405.9FFEB20A14@qs281.pair.com> Message-ID: A bit of trivia I recall about that... Tony originally set up the circuitry for that controller to support 8 ROM slots rather than four. A consequence of this is that if you poke in a value in the 4-7 range, you select a nonexistent slot and get into a situation that cannot be recovered from even by pressing reset, or, if I'm recalling correctly, even by doing a ctrl-alt-reset on a CoCo 3. The only recourse is to toggle the power off and on (so, watch out for typos when doing that poke). Art On Mon, 22 Dec 2008, Roger Taylor wrote: > At 01:59 AM 12/22/2008, you wrote: > >I hardly remember that using corresponding POKE (65345?), you could > >instruct the MPI, from which slot to select the ROM, overriding the > >MPI-switch setting. However, I don't remember what happened on a > >"button" reset. > > I'm talking about the Disto Super Controller's ROM selector. My > controller has 4 sockets for EPROMs. It now appears that just a > simple POKE 65345,x and hitting RESET will switch in the CoCoNet ROM > without having to warm start. It took me a while to figure out what > was going on. > > -- > Roger Taylor > > http://www.wordofthedayonline.com > > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > From brucewcalkins at charter.net Mon Dec 22 20:12:24 2008 From: brucewcalkins at charter.net (Bruce W. Calkins) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 20:12:24 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Printing OS-9 Manuals References: Message-ID: <40F5F456EE9F4484BCADBEA12A464309@speedy> ----- Original Message ----- From: "BookWorm" > Now that all those manuals are online, I've been downloading and printing > a lot > of them. Even double sided printing is easy. But how do I print the little > ones? Most of Tandy's OS-9 manuals, including the OS itself, should be > printed > two pages to one sheet, but I'm having a little trouble figuring out how. > > I want to print, for example, pages 1 and 3 on one side, 2 and 4 on the > other. > Using Acrobat reader 7.05, I can't just pick what pages to print, and > printing > odd or even pages in a 4 page range gets them out of order. How do I keep > them > in order, and print exactly what I want? > -- For my Texas Instruments Calculator manuals, I have been cutting my paper to 5.5" by 8.5" and using the paper size and print both sides option in my printer's properties menu. I have not sorted out any way of putting 4 pages per sheet in foldable order like you are describing, yet. Bruce W. From robert.gault at worldnet.att.net Mon Dec 22 20:56:39 2008 From: robert.gault at worldnet.att.net (Robert Gault) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 20:56:39 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Printing OS-9 Manuals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49504557.8040005@worldnet.att.net> BookWorm wrote: > Now that all those manuals are online, I've been downloading and printing a lot > of them. Even double sided printing is easy. But how do I print the little > ones? Most of Tandy's OS-9 manuals, including the OS itself, should be printed > two pages to one sheet, but I'm having a little trouble figuring out how. > > I want to print, for example, pages 1 and 3 on one side, 2 and 4 on the other. > Using Acrobat reader 7.05, I can't just pick what pages to print, and printing > odd or even pages in a 4 page range gets them out of order. How do I keep them > in order, and print exactly what I want? > > After looking at one of these files, GettingStarted.pdf, it is clear the person that created the pdf file took liberties with the page order. There is no way to print this particular file so that the pages will exist as they do in the original. The only way I can see to double side print this and make any sense would be to capture each pdf page as a PrintScreen image, paste into a graphics program, split each image into separate pages, and reassemble them so that double sided printing puts pages where they should be. This really should have been dealt with by the person who created the pdf file. However, it seems clear that the intent was to make the file readable on a computer screen with no thought to printing double sided. There is no way to maintain the correct page order for both printing and screen use in these files. From operator at coco3.com Mon Dec 22 22:08:38 2008 From: operator at coco3.com (Roger Taylor) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 21:08:38 -0600 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet is CoCo 3 ready In-Reply-To: <494FB021.8060209@adinet.com.uy> References: <20081222041205.3374F20A14@qs281.pair.com> <20081222042553.550B720A14@qs281.pair.com> <20081222044623.8EDB220A16@qs281.pair.com> <20081222130405.9FFEB20A14@qs281.pair.com> <494FB021.8060209@adinet.com.uy> Message-ID: <20081223030942.9140420A13@qs281.pair.com> At 09:20 AM 12/22/2008, you wrote: >Roger Taylor wrote: >>At 01:59 AM 12/22/2008, you wrote: >>>I hardly remember that using corresponding POKE (65345?), you >>>could instruct the MPI, from which slot to select the ROM, >>>overriding the MPI-switch setting. However, I don't remember what >>>happened on a "button" reset. >> >>I'm talking about the Disto Super Controller's ROM selector. My >>controller has 4 sockets for EPROMs. It now appears that just a >>simple POKE 65345,x and hitting RESET will switch in the CoCoNet >>ROM without having to warm start. It took me a while to figure out >>what was going on. >I guess something similar could be achieved using Cloud-9's Super IDE, right? >I should be able to load the patch from a disk, and then copy the >patched ROM to one of the S.IDE flash banks. >Has any test been done with this? > >Diego As Mark said, yes. SuperIDE users will probably want to LOADM the CoCoNet patches for Disk BASIC 1.1 (1.0 hasn't been done yet), and just write out a ROM image to the card, however you do that. It sounds nice. You could first alter some of the timeout values in the ROM image to better handle dial-up situations and so forth. I'm also leaving some "detour" areas filled with 3 NOP instructions ($12 $12 $12) so one could intercept some of the commands and routines at various points. This would probably work best on a CoCo 3 (runs in all-RAM mode) where you can patch things from within each web program you write in BASIC. -- Roger Taylor http://www.wordofthedayonline.com From gene.heskett at verizon.net Mon Dec 22 23:49:56 2008 From: gene.heskett at verizon.net (Gene Heskett) Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 23:49:56 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Printing OS-9 Manuals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200812222349.56286.gene.heskett@verizon.net> On Monday 22 December 2008, BookWorm wrote: >Now that all those manuals are online, I've been downloading and printing a > lot of them. Even double sided printing is easy. But how do I print the > little ones? Most of Tandy's OS-9 manuals, including the OS itself, should > be printed two pages to one sheet, but I'm having a little trouble figuring > out how. > >I want to print, for example, pages 1 and 3 on one side, 2 and 4 on the > other. Using Acrobat reader 7.05, I can't just pick what pages to print, > and printing odd or even pages in a 4 page range gets them out of order. > How do I keep them in order, and print exactly what I want? > This might be something that OOo can do, see http://openoffice.org for a free download. >-- >Coco mailing list >Coco at maltedmedia.com >http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco -- Cheers, Gene "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) "To YOU I'm an atheist; to God, I'm the Loyal Opposition." -- Woody Allen From farna at att.net Tue Dec 23 10:28:03 2008 From: farna at att.net (Frank Swygert) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 10:28:03 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Printing OS-9 Manuals Message-ID: <49510383.1050508@att.net> In DTP lingo what you want to do is "impose" the pages. You should be able to find imposition tools on the internet, now that you know what to look for. This might work for you: http://www.oep-h.com/impose/ Here is another set of PDF tools (free) that I've used to re-order pages: http://www.pdfill.com/ ---------- Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2008 23:43:55 +0000 (UTC) From: BookWorm Now that all those manuals are online, I've been downloading and printing a lot of them. Even double sided printing is easy. But how do I print the little ones? Most of Tandy's OS-9 manuals, including the OS itself, should be printed two pages to one sheet, but I'm having a little trouble figuring out how. I want to print, for example, pages 1 and 3 on one side, 2 and 4 on the other. Using Acrobat reader 7.05, I can't just pick what pages to print, and printing odd or even pages in a 4 page range gets them out of order. How do I keep them in order, and print exactly what I want? -- Frank Swygert Publisher, "American Motors Cars" Magazine (AMC) For all AMC enthusiasts http://farna.home.att.net/AMC.html (free download available!) From dml_68 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 23 11:24:34 2008 From: dml_68 at yahoo.com (Derek) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 08:24:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Coco] Radio Shack Catalogs Online Mirror In-Reply-To: <49504557.8040005@worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: <355188.20340.qm@web30203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I saw a message in the last week here about the web site that has the Radio Shack catalogs online. The web site however was horrible, the in browser reader was horrible, the amount of ads..you guessed it...horrible. Good news! The folks at textfiles.com agreed and have provided a mirror of just the PDF's from the web site so you can download them directly. Here is the link: http://pdf.textfiles.com/catalogs/RADIOSHACK/ ** Mistrust Authority. Promote Decentralization ** From petrander at gmail.com Tue Dec 23 15:23:56 2008 From: petrander at gmail.com (Fedor Steeman) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 21:23:56 +0100 Subject: [Coco] Setting graphics modes with Assembly In-Reply-To: <494D13E5.4030004@worldnet.att.net> References: <494D13E5.4030004@worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: Thanks, Robert, for the help, and that looks like a very elegant and useful way to set the display offset. I have dug up Don Inman's book on assembly language graphics and really coming to terms with this. I keep on experimenting and learning... Cheers, Fedor 2008/12/20 Robert Gault > The main "error" is the first JMP $ADFB. Since you want to return to your > program not Basic, this should be JSR $ADFB. The second use of the ROM > routine is OK because you do want to return to Basic and therefore should > use JMP. > > $FFC0 is not The clear bit for the SAM rather A clear bit. All even bytes > in that region act as clears, all odd bytes act as sets for a specific > control toggle. > > While it can take more code, it would probably help you to use a generic > routine to write to the SAM control register where you specify the actual > control word rather than bytes. > > *Enter with regA equal to the 7-bit SAM value, regB = 7, regX=1st SAM byte > *Leave with SAM set for some video offset > * $E00/$200=7 > LDA #7 the above result > JSR SETSAM > ... Program code > * Video offset controller for PMODEs > SETSAM LDB #7 for 7-bit word > LDX $FFC6 first SAM offset byte > SAMLUP RORA > BCC SAM2 > LEAX 1,X > STA ,X+ > BRA SAM3 > SAM2 STA ,X++ > SAM3 DECB > BNE SAMLUP > RTS > > The above routine can be used to setup the SAM for any video location > merely by changing the value in regA. The same type of routine can be used > to set any SAM mode ($FFC0-$FFC5) just by loading regB with 3 and regX with > $FFC0. > > Fedor Steeman wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> I have been studying Chris Lomont's reference guide and, combined with >> your >> help, I am starting to come to grips with it. One thing I don't get yet, >> though, is how to switch from one graphics mode to another. I tried simply >> appending the following to the already written code, but that doesn't do >> anything noticeable: >> >> >> LDA #$E8 * load 1110 1000 >> STA VDGSET * set pmode 3 >> >> Also: how to set the equivalent of SCREEN 1,0 / 1,1 commands? >> >> This is my complete code so far: >> >> TXTSCR EQU $0400 *Start of text screen >> HIRES1 EQU $E00 *Start of hi-res graphics screen >> VDGSET EQU $FF22 *PIA1 data port B: VDG Control output >> V0CLR EQU $FFC0 *Clear bit for Sam Chip (Graphics mode) >> V1SET EQU $FFC3 *Set V1 bit in Sam Chip (Graphics mode) >> V2SET EQU $FFC5 *set V2 bit in Sam Chip (Graphics mode) >> F0CLR EQU $FFC6 *Display Offset Binary, This is the CLR Bit >> (Video page offset) >> F0SET EQU $FFC7 >> F1SET EQU $FFC9 >> F2SET EQU $FFCB >> POLCAT EQU $A000 *Color Basic rom poll keyboard routine >> >> ORG $7000 >> START LDX #HIRES1 >> LDD #$AAAA >> LOOP1 STD ,X++ >> CMPX #HIRES1+$1800 >> BCS LOOP1 >> GMODE STA V0CLR * set graphics mode >> STA V1SET * set graphics mode >> STA V2SET * set graphics mode >> LDA #$F8 * load 1111 1000 >> STA F0SET * set graphics mode >> STA F1SET * set graphics mode >> STA F2SET * set graphics mode >> STA VDGSET * set pmode 4 equivalent >> JMP $ADFB * wait for keypress >> LDA #$E8 * load 1110 1000 >> STA VDGSET * set pmode 3 equivalent? >> JMP $ADFB >> END START >> >> Thanks for any input! >> >> Cheers, >> Fedor >> >> -- >> Coco mailing list >> Coco at maltedmedia.com >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco >> >> > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > From johnguin at hotmail.com Tue Dec 23 16:52:40 2008 From: johnguin at hotmail.com (John) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 13:52:40 -0800 Subject: [Coco] Radio Shack Catalogs Online Mirror In-Reply-To: <355188.20340.qm@web30203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <49504557.8040005@worldnet.att.net> <355188.20340.qm@web30203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Odd - the zip files are about 3MB (or 15%) larger than the uncompressed PDFs... -----Original Message----- From: coco-bounces at maltedmedia.com [mailto:coco-bounces at maltedmedia.com] On Behalf Of Derek Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 8:25 AM To: CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts Subject: [Coco] Radio Shack Catalogs Online Mirror I saw a message in the last week here about the web site that has the Radio Shack catalogs online. The web site however was horrible, the in browser reader was horrible, the amount of ads..you guessed it...horrible. Good news! The folks at textfiles.com agreed and have provided a mirror of just the PDF's from the web site so you can download them directly. Here is the link: http://pdf.textfiles.com/catalogs/RADIOSHACK/ ** Mistrust Authority. Promote Decentralization ** -- Coco mailing list Coco at maltedmedia.com http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco From cyberpunk at prtc.net Tue Dec 23 17:49:00 2008 From: cyberpunk at prtc.net (RJLCyberPunk) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 18:49:00 -0400 Subject: [Coco] So how about sequels for classic CoCo games like Ghana Bwana in 3D for PC and Consoles? References: <355188.20340.qm@web30203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: So is anyone interested in seeing a full blown 3D sequel of popular classic CoCo9 games like Ghana Bwana to PC and Consoles alike? From alsplace at pobox.com Tue Dec 23 18:53:33 2008 From: alsplace at pobox.com (Allen Huffman) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 17:53:33 -0600 Subject: [Coco] So how about sequels for classic CoCo games like Ghana Bwana in 3D for PC and Consoles? In-Reply-To: References: <355188.20340.qm@web30203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <70EAB304-B0C5-4269-8419-B0E068C7A8D7@pobox.com> On Dec 23, 2008, at 4:49 PM, RJLCyberPunk wrote: > So is anyone interested in seeing a full blown 3D sequel of popular > classic CoCo9 games like Ghana Bwana to PC and Consoles alike? I always like the idea of updates to classics. A few years back, someone was working on an update to the old TRS-80 and CoCo game, Outhouse. Anyone remember that one? I don't know if it ever came out, but at the time, the original author (or maybe the author of the CoCo version?) was involved with the GEnie online service, if I recall. Ages ago. -- Allen From cyberpunk at prtc.net Tue Dec 23 19:09:28 2008 From: cyberpunk at prtc.net (RJLCyberPunk) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 20:09:28 -0400 Subject: [Coco] So how about sequels for classic CoCo games like Ghana Bwana in 3D for PC and Consoles? References: <355188.20340.qm@web30203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <70EAB304-B0C5-4269-8419-B0E068C7A8D7@pobox.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Allen Huffman" To: "CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts" Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 7:53 PM Subject: Re: [Coco] So how about sequels for classic CoCo games like Ghana Bwana in 3D for PC and Consoles? > On Dec 23, 2008, at 4:49 PM, RJLCyberPunk wrote: > > I always like the idea of updates to classics. > > A few years back, someone was working on an update to the old TRS-80 and > CoCo game, Outhouse. Anyone remember that one? I don't know if it ever > came out, but at the time, the original author (or maybe the author of > the CoCo version?) was involved with the GEnie online service, if I > recall. Ages ago. > > -- Allen > > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco Then you might be glad to know that the original programmer and creator of Ghana Bwana Mr Steve Bjork is still arouind and active as a programmer so maybe we should email him and his team to encourage them to write a full blown 3D Ghana Bwana sequel God knows is about time! From gene.heskett at verizon.net Tue Dec 23 19:27:39 2008 From: gene.heskett at verizon.net (Gene Heskett) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 19:27:39 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Radio Shack Catalogs Online Mirror In-Reply-To: References: <49504557.8040005@worldnet.att.net> <355188.20340.qm@web30203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200812231927.39828.gene.heskett@verizon.net> On Tuesday 23 December 2008, John wrote: >Odd - the zip files are about 3MB (or 15%) larger than the uncompressed >PDFs... > That may be because the pdf's are in fact, one of the more powerfull compressions that can be done. Not even bzip2 can match it. -- Cheers, Gene "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) A university is what a college becomes when the faculty loses interest in students. -- John Ciardi From diegoba at adinet.com.uy Tue Dec 23 19:33:18 2008 From: diegoba at adinet.com.uy (Diego Barizo) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 22:33:18 -0200 Subject: [Coco] So how about sequels for classic CoCo games like Ghana Bwana in 3D for PC and Consoles? In-Reply-To: References: <355188.20340.qm@web30203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <70EAB304-B0C5-4269-8419-B0E068C7A8D7@pobox.com> Message-ID: <4951834E.40000@adinet.com.uy> For those who love playing Zenix in the CoCo, you can try it on the PC, with full blown 3D graphics http://gosub.com/ Diego > >> On Dec 23, 2008, at 4:49 PM, RJLCyberPunk wrote: >> >> I always like the idea of updates to classics. >> >> A few years back, someone was working on an update to the old TRS-80 >> and CoCo game, Outhouse. Anyone remember that one? I don't know if it >> ever came out, but at the time, the original author (or maybe the >> author of the CoCo version?) was involved with the GEnie online >> service, if I recall. Ages ago. >> >> -- Allen >> >> >> -- >> Coco mailing list >> Coco at maltedmedia.com >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > From cyberpunk at prtc.net Tue Dec 23 19:45:11 2008 From: cyberpunk at prtc.net (RJLCyberPunk) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 20:45:11 -0400 Subject: [Coco] So how about sequels for classic CoCo games like Ghana Bwana in 3D for PC and Consoles? References: <355188.20340.qm@web30203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <70EAB304-B0C5-4269-8419-B0E068C7A8D7@pobox.com> <4951834E.40000@adinet.com.uy> Message-ID: Awesome thx dude! I hope that if Xenix has a sequel that Ghana Bwana sooner or latter receives the same treatment! From daveekelly1 at embarqmail.com Tue Dec 23 22:48:15 2008 From: daveekelly1 at embarqmail.com (Dave Kelly) Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2008 21:48:15 -0600 Subject: [Coco] So how about sequels for classic CoCo games like Ghana Bwana in 3D for PC and Consoles? In-Reply-To: References: <355188.20340.qm@web30203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <70EAB304-B0C5-4269-8419-B0E068C7A8D7@pobox.com> Message-ID: <4951B0FF.9040708@embarqmail.com> RJLCyberPunk wrote: > > Then you might be glad to know that the original programmer and creator > of Ghana Bwana Mr Steve Bjork is still arouind and active as a > programmer so maybe we should email him and his team to encourage them > to write a full blown 3D Ghana Bwana sequel God knows is about time! Even see him here once in a while. From Torsten at Dittel.info Wed Dec 24 04:26:55 2008 From: Torsten at Dittel.info (Torsten Dittel) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 10:26:55 +0100 Subject: [Coco] Radio Shack Catalogs Online Mirror In-Reply-To: <200812231927.39828.gene.heskett@verizon.net> References: <49504557.8040005@worldnet.att.net> <355188.20340.qm@web30203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <200812231927.39828.gene.heskett@verizon.net> Message-ID: Gene Heskett schrieb: > That may be because the pdf's are in fact, one of the more powerfull > compressions that can be done. Not even bzip2 can match it. Actually, Acrobat is optionally using ZIP for overall file compression. However, you can individually decide for any picture object the PDF contains, how it will be compressed. Assuming the catalog are one-page color scans only, you would select JPG compression when creating the file (1-Bit b&w scans might use TIFF compression instead, although my experiments showed, using ZIP in that case for picture object compressions is sometimes even the better choice). If you ZIP a JPEG file, it will become only a little bit smaller (but not much). If you ZIP thae ZIPped JPEG again, it will get bigger (due to the overhead), because compressed data is not more compressible if the compression algorithm is good. Regards, Torsten From sklammer at gmail.com Wed Dec 24 04:50:18 2008 From: sklammer at gmail.com (Shain Klammer) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 04:50:18 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Radio Shack Catalogs Online Mirror In-Reply-To: References: <49504557.8040005@worldnet.att.net> <355188.20340.qm@web30203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <200812231927.39828.gene.heskett@verizon.net> Message-ID: <3925f0b0812240150j70ba666fx301ba1f6ae8b6da3@mail.gmail.com> Having the PDFs are handy; but, IMHO, I thought the interactive reader was quite nice - the page flipping was nicely handled and included a nice sound reminiscent of the type of paper used in those catalogues... sk 2008/12/24 Torsten Dittel > Gene Heskett schrieb: > >> That may be because the pdf's are in fact, one of the more powerfull >> compressions that can be done. Not even bzip2 can match it. >> > > Actually, Acrobat is optionally using ZIP for overall file compression. > However, you can individually decide for any picture object the PDF > contains, how it will be compressed. Assuming the catalog are one-page color > scans only, you would select JPG compression when creating the file (1-Bit > b&w scans might use TIFF compression instead, although my experiments > showed, using ZIP in that case for picture object compressions is sometimes > even the better choice). > > If you ZIP a JPEG file, it will become only a little bit smaller (but not > much). If you ZIP thae ZIPped JPEG again, it will get bigger (due to the > overhead), because compressed data is not more compressible if the > compression algorithm is good. > > Regards, > Torsten > > > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > From brjeremy at juno.com Wed Dec 24 08:00:33 2008 From: brjeremy at juno.com (brjeremy at juno.com) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 13:00:33 GMT Subject: [Coco] Christmas Greetings Message-ID: <20081224.070033.17733.0@webmail17.dca.untd.com> Dear friends: Another Christmas is upon us. This year it will be a more quiet one for me after spending last years with my lads in the UK. I was with them again for six weeks in September and October. It is amazing how much they have grown in 6 months. As is my custom I will be remembering all of you at Mass tonight. May God watch over you and keep you. With all best wishes, Brother Jeremy, CSJW ____________________________________________________________ Get educated. Click here for Adult Education programs. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw2kA3wLBCqfTeyQ8wNbHtqiw1MvM1jGhQvKJl8QM75IbRQh7/ From tjseagrove at writeme.com Wed Dec 24 09:30:32 2008 From: tjseagrove at writeme.com (Tom Seagrove) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 09:30:32 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Christmas Greetings In-Reply-To: <20081224.070033.17733.0@webmail17.dca.untd.com> References: <20081224.070033.17733.0@webmail17.dca.untd.com> Message-ID: <000301c965d4$2de27de0$89a779a0$@com> Thank you sir and many great blessings upon you and the rest on this list from our Heavenly Father at this time and all year.... Tom -----Original Message----- From: coco-bounces at maltedmedia.com [mailto:coco-bounces at maltedmedia.com] On Behalf Of brjeremy at juno.com Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2008 8:01 AM To: coco at maltedmedia.com Subject: [Coco] Christmas Greetings Dear friends: Another Christmas is upon us. This year it will be a more quiet one for me after spending last years with my lads in the UK. I was with them again for six weeks in September and October. It is amazing how much they have grown in 6 months. As is my custom I will be remembering all of you at Mass tonight. May God watch over you and keep you. With all best wishes, Brother Jeremy, CSJW ____________________________________________________________ Get educated. Click here for Adult Education programs. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw2kA3wLBCqfTeyQ8wNbHtqiw1Mv M1jGhQvKJl8QM75IbRQh7/ -- Coco mailing list Coco at maltedmedia.com http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.0/1862 - Release Date: 12/23/2008 12:08 PM From Torsten at Dittel.info Wed Dec 24 10:42:31 2008 From: Torsten at Dittel.info (Torsten Dittel) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 16:42:31 +0100 Subject: [Coco] Christmas Greetings In-Reply-To: <000301c965d4$2de27de0$89a779a0$@com> References: <20081224.070033.17733.0@webmail17.dca.untd.com> <000301c965d4$2de27de0$89a779a0$@com> Message-ID: Merry X-mas and best wishes for the next year from Germany too to all you CoCo-nuts out there! Best regards, Torsten From gene.heskett at verizon.net Wed Dec 24 11:06:45 2008 From: gene.heskett at verizon.net (Gene Heskett) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 11:06:45 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Radio Shack Catalogs Online Mirror In-Reply-To: References: <49504557.8040005@worldnet.att.net> <200812231927.39828.gene.heskett@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200812241106.45591.gene.heskett@verizon.net> On Wednesday 24 December 2008, Torsten Dittel wrote: >Gene Heskett schrieb: >> That may be because the pdf's are in fact, one of the more powerfull >> compressions that can be done. Not even bzip2 can match it. > >Actually, Acrobat is optionally using ZIP for overall file compression. >However, you can individually decide for any picture object the PDF >contains, how it will be compressed. Assuming the catalog are one-page >color scans only, you would select JPG compression when creating the >file (1-Bit b&w scans might use TIFF compression instead, although my >experiments showed, using ZIP in that case for picture object >compressions is sometimes even the better choice). > >If you ZIP a JPEG file, it will become only a little bit smaller (but >not much). If you ZIP thae ZIPped JPEG again, it will get bigger (due >to the overhead), because compressed data is not more compressible if >the compression algorithm is good. > >Regards, >Torsten > The PDF format is a true random access format, and spends considerable time looking for repeat phrases it can set up a 1 or 2 character 'dictionary' for. Properly done, this sort of setup can exceed bzip2 for compression ratio. I have no idea if Adobe has patents on the method but bzip2 would probably invalidate them in court. It is essentially bzip2 with a 64k dictionary. bzip2 rarely uses more than 12k, and it may even start a new dictionary if that one is used up. Open a pdf file in an editor sometime, its very educational to follow what it is doing. > >-- >Coco mailing list >Coco at maltedmedia.com >http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco -- Cheers, Gene "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) And I hate redundancy, and having different functions for the same thing. - Linus Torvalds on linux-kernel From gene.heskett at verizon.net Wed Dec 24 11:09:30 2008 From: gene.heskett at verizon.net (Gene Heskett) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 11:09:30 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Christmas Greetings In-Reply-To: <20081224.070033.17733.0@webmail17.dca.untd.com> References: <20081224.070033.17733.0@webmail17.dca.untd.com> Message-ID: <200812241109.30296.gene.heskett@verizon.net> On Wednesday 24 December 2008, brjeremy at juno.com wrote: >Dear friends: >Another Christmas is upon us. This year it will be a more quiet one for me > after spending last years with my lads in the UK. I was with them again for > six weeks in September and October. It is amazing how much they have grown > in 6 months. As is my custom I will be remembering all of you at Mass > tonight. May God watch over you and keep you. With all best wishes, >Brother Jeremy, CSJW Thank you Brother Jeremy as we all prepare to celebrate. And may the coming year be a good one for you also. -- Cheers, Gene "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) "In the face of entropy and nothingness, you kind of have to pretend it's not there if you want to keep writing good code." -- Karl Lehenbauer From wdg3rd at comcast.net Wed Dec 24 11:52:14 2008 From: wdg3rd at comcast.net (wdg3rd at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 16:52:14 +0000 Subject: [Coco] Christmas Greetings Message-ID: <122420081652.12540.495268BE000001BF000030FC22092299270B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> From: Gene Heskett > On Wednesday 24 December 2008, brjeremy at juno.com wrote: > >Dear friends: > >Another Christmas is upon us. This year it will be a more quiet one for me > > after spending last years with my lads in the UK. I was with them again for > > six weeks in September and October. It is amazing how much they have grown > > in 6 months. As is my custom I will be remembering all of you at Mass > > tonight. May God watch over you and keep you. With all best wishes, > >Brother Jeremy, CSJW > > Thank you Brother Jeremy as we all prepare to celebrate. And may the coming > year be a good one for you also. Happy Holidays to all, whether you light a tree, a menorah, a Yule log, a monitor or a reading lamp. (Or maybe just a few brain cells that were going to die anyway). -- Ward Griffiths wdg3rd at comcast.net I thought about being diplomatic and polite. Honest, I really did. But while I was thinking about it, I accidentally bumped the button that puts my mouth on autopilot, because it said, "That's a load of crap, Captain, and you know it". Jim Butcher, _Small Favor_ From mdelyea at gmail.com Wed Dec 24 12:02:49 2008 From: mdelyea at gmail.com (mike delyea) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 12:02:49 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Christmas Greetings In-Reply-To: <122420081652.12540.495268BE000001BF000030FC22092299270B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> References: <122420081652.12540.495268BE000001BF000030FC22092299270B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1b52e6c80812240902h69d295e4pf069d692356e5bef@mail.gmail.com> Merry Christmas from Toronto to everybody on the list (Santa's list?)! We have a ton of snow here this year, unlike previous Christmases which weren't really white. On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 11:52 AM, wrote: > From: Gene Heskett >> On Wednesday 24 December 2008, brjeremy at juno.com wrote: >> >Dear friends: >> >Another Christmas is upon us. This year it will be a more quiet one for me >> > after spending last years with my lads in the UK. I was with them again for >> > six weeks in September and October. It is amazing how much they have grown >> > in 6 months. As is my custom I will be remembering all of you at Mass >> > tonight. May God watch over you and keep you. With all best wishes, >> >Brother Jeremy, CSJW >> >> Thank you Brother Jeremy as we all prepare to celebrate. And may the coming >> year be a good one for you also. > > Happy Holidays to all, whether you light a tree, a menorah, a Yule log, a monitor or a reading lamp. (Or maybe just a few brain cells that were going to die anyway). > -- > Ward Griffiths wdg3rd at comcast.net > > I thought about being diplomatic and polite. Honest, I really did. But while I was thinking about it, I accidentally bumped the button that puts my mouth on autopilot, because it said, "That's a load of crap, Captain, and you know it". Jim Butcher, _Small Favor_ > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > From cyberpunk at prtc.net Wed Dec 24 16:08:38 2008 From: cyberpunk at prtc.net (RJLCyberPunk) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 17:08:38 -0400 Subject: [Coco] So how about sequels for classic CoCo games like Ghana Bwana in 3D for PC and Consoles? References: <355188.20340.qm@web30203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <70EAB304-B0C5-4269-8419-B0E068C7A8D7@pobox.com> <4951B0FF.9040708@embarqmail.com> Message-ID: > Even see him here once in a while. > Wow! You do? Like face to face? Man to me and my brothers and cousins he is a freaking legend with the games that he made and we played on the CoCo back in the day! If I ever saw him face to face I'd ask for the man's authograph he is our hero! :D From sklammer at gmail.com Wed Dec 24 16:12:19 2008 From: sklammer at gmail.com (Shain Klammer) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 16:12:19 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Christmas Greetings In-Reply-To: <1b52e6c80812240902h69d295e4pf069d692356e5bef@mail.gmail.com> References: <122420081652.12540.495268BE000001BF000030FC22092299270B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> <1b52e6c80812240902h69d295e4pf069d692356e5bef@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3925f0b0812241312t2747c444q5e456467cae390fb@mail.gmail.com> I would also like to wish all of you a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year! Mike, I'm in Mississauga; and although there is still some snow on the ground (after three storm systems) we've got rain, heavy fog and very warm temperatures over the next few days in the GTA :) My prayers and hopes are with you all... Shain 2008/12/24 mike delyea > Merry Christmas from Toronto to everybody on the list (Santa's list?)! > We have a ton of snow here this year, unlike previous Christmases > which weren't really white. > > On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 11:52 AM, wrote: > > From: Gene Heskett > >> On Wednesday 24 December 2008, brjeremy at juno.com wrote: > >> >Dear friends: > >> >Another Christmas is upon us. This year it will be a more quiet one for > me > >> > after spending last years with my lads in the UK. I was with them > again for > >> > six weeks in September and October. It is amazing how much they have > grown > >> > in 6 months. As is my custom I will be remembering all of you at Mass > >> > tonight. May God watch over you and keep you. With all best wishes, > >> >Brother Jeremy, CSJW > >> > >> Thank you Brother Jeremy as we all prepare to celebrate. And may the > coming > >> year be a good one for you also. > > > > Happy Holidays to all, whether you light a tree, a menorah, a Yule log, a > monitor or a reading lamp. (Or maybe just a few brain cells that were going > to die anyway). > > -- > > Ward Griffiths wdg3rd at comcast.net > > > > I thought about being diplomatic and polite. Honest, I really did. But > while I was thinking about it, I accidentally bumped the button that puts my > mouth on autopilot, because it said, "That's a load of crap, Captain, and > you know it". Jim Butcher, _Small Favor_ > > > > -- > > Coco mailing list > > Coco at maltedmedia.com > > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > > > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > From carlos.bragatto at gmail.com Wed Dec 24 16:23:21 2008 From: carlos.bragatto at gmail.com (Carlos Bragatto) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 19:23:21 -0200 Subject: [Coco] Christmas Greetings In-Reply-To: <3925f0b0812241312t2747c444q5e456467cae390fb@mail.gmail.com> References: <122420081652.12540.495268BE000001BF000030FC22092299270B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> <1b52e6c80812240902h69d295e4pf069d692356e5bef@mail.gmail.com> <3925f0b0812241312t2747c444q5e456467cae390fb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <16bae8870812241323m47f51436kbe865c9808a293d9@mail.gmail.com> Merry Christmas from Brazil ! CH On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 7:12 PM, Shain Klammer wrote: > I would also like to wish all of you a Merry Christmas and a Happy New > Year! > > Mike, I'm in Mississauga; and although there is still some snow on the > ground (after three storm systems) we've got rain, heavy fog and very warm > temperatures over the next few days in the GTA :) > > My prayers and hopes are with you all... > > Shain > > 2008/12/24 mike delyea > > > Merry Christmas from Toronto to everybody on the list (Santa's list?)! > > We have a ton of snow here this year, unlike previous Christmases > > which weren't really white. > > > > On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 11:52 AM, wrote: > > > From: Gene Heskett > > >> On Wednesday 24 December 2008, brjeremy at juno.com wrote: > > >> >Dear friends: > > >> >Another Christmas is upon us. This year it will be a more quiet one > for > > me > > >> > after spending last years with my lads in the UK. I was with them > > again for > > >> > six weeks in September and October. It is amazing how much they have > > grown > > >> > in 6 months. As is my custom I will be remembering all of you at > Mass > > >> > tonight. May God watch over you and keep you. With all best wishes, > > >> >Brother Jeremy, CSJW > > >> > > >> Thank you Brother Jeremy as we all prepare to celebrate. And may the > > coming > > >> year be a good one for you also. > > > > > > Happy Holidays to all, whether you light a tree, a menorah, a Yule log, > a > > monitor or a reading lamp. (Or maybe just a few brain cells that were > going > > to die anyway). > > > -- > > > Ward Griffiths wdg3rd at comcast.net > > > > > > I thought about being diplomatic and polite. Honest, I really did. > But > > while I was thinking about it, I accidentally bumped the button that puts > my > > mouth on autopilot, because it said, "That's a load of crap, Captain, and > > you know it". Jim Butcher, _Small Favor_ > > > > > > -- > > > Coco mailing list > > > Coco at maltedmedia.com > > > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > > > > > > > -- > > Coco mailing list > > Coco at maltedmedia.com > > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > > > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > From diegoba at adinet.com.uy Wed Dec 24 16:32:08 2008 From: diegoba at adinet.com.uy (Diego Barizo) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 19:32:08 -0200 Subject: [Coco] So how about sequels for classic CoCo games like Ghana Bwana in 3D for PC and Consoles? In-Reply-To: References: <355188.20340.qm@web30203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <70EAB304-B0C5-4269-8419-B0E068C7A8D7@pobox.com> <4951B0FF.9040708@embarqmail.com> Message-ID: <4952AA58.4030201@adinet.com.uy> That's why I took an original Zaxxon tape to the 07 CoCoFest for :-) RJLCyberPunk wrote: >> Even see him here once in a while. >> > > Wow! You do? Like face to face? Man to me and my brothers and cousins > he is a freaking legend with the games that he made and we played on > the CoCo back in the day! If I ever saw him face to face I'd ask for > the man's authograph he is our hero! :D > > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > From wdg3rd at comcast.net Wed Dec 24 17:08:29 2008 From: wdg3rd at comcast.net (wdg3rd at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 22:08:29 +0000 Subject: [Coco] So how about sequels for classic CoCo games like Ghana Bwana in 3D for PC and Consoles? Message-ID: <122420082208.19956.4952B2DD000BBD3F00004DF422007340760B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> From: "RJLCyberPunk" > > Even see him here once in a while. > > Wow! You do? Like face to face? Man to me and my brothers and cousins he is > a freaking legend with the games that he made and we played on the CoCo back > in the day! If I ever saw him face to face I'd ask for the man's authograph > he is our hero! :D Honest, he's not a god, he's just a nice guy and a hell of a programmer. "Back in the day" I used to see him fairly regularly, as he lived in the San Fernando Valley and I did tech support at the RSCC in downtown L.A. Happens at the time he was engaged to (and later married) a field tech who sometimes worked out of our repair shop, though she usually worked out of the RSCC down by LAX or the one in Beverly Hills. In those days, I was about the only person doing tech support for RS in SoCal who had any real fondness for (or gave any support for) the Color Computer line. (I made up for my support of low-ticket items by also being tops in support of the high-end Xenix systems, often farmed out to other RSCCs in the triangle between Santa Barbara, San Diego and San Bernardino to handle problems their CSRs couldn't handle). (And yes, I own a Tandy 6000HD along with all of my Color Computers, my Mod One, my 4 and 4P, my Mod 2 and my Mod 100s). My support for the Color Computer did get me one fan, practically a disciple. You've seen him if you ever watched the original "Beastmaster" movie. Josh Milrad, who played the young prince (and hasn't a major impact on the movie industry since then, as far as the IMDB can tell). -- Ward Griffiths wdg3rd at comcast.net I thought about being diplomatic and polite. Honest, I really did. But while I was thinking about it, I accidentally bumped the button that puts my mouth on autopilot, because it said, "That's a load of crap, Captain, and you know it". Jim Butcher, _Small Favor_ From tjseagrove at writeme.com Wed Dec 24 18:01:19 2008 From: tjseagrove at writeme.com (Tom Seagrove) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 18:01:19 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Christmas Greetings In-Reply-To: <1b52e6c80812240902h69d295e4pf069d692356e5bef@mail.gmail.com> References: <122420081652.12540.495268BE000001BF000030FC22092299270B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> <1b52e6c80812240902h69d295e4pf069d692356e5bef@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <003101c9661b$88afe9f0$9a0fbdd0$@com> Odd you have so much compared to us in New York. It usually is a lot more on this side of the lake than up your way... It will be a white Christmas for all, in the north east at least...... Tom -----Original Message----- From: coco-bounces at maltedmedia.com [mailto:coco-bounces at maltedmedia.com] On Behalf Of mike delyea Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2008 12:03 PM To: CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts Subject: Re: [Coco] Christmas Greetings Merry Christmas from Toronto to everybody on the list (Santa's list?)! We have a ton of snow here this year, unlike previous Christmases which weren't really white. On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 11:52 AM, wrote: > From: Gene Heskett >> On Wednesday 24 December 2008, brjeremy at juno.com wrote: >> >Dear friends: >> >Another Christmas is upon us. This year it will be a more quiet one for me >> > after spending last years with my lads in the UK. I was with them again for >> > six weeks in September and October. It is amazing how much they have grown >> > in 6 months. As is my custom I will be remembering all of you at Mass >> > tonight. May God watch over you and keep you. With all best wishes, >> >Brother Jeremy, CSJW >> >> Thank you Brother Jeremy as we all prepare to celebrate. And may the coming >> year be a good one for you also. > > Happy Holidays to all, whether you light a tree, a menorah, a Yule log, a monitor or a reading lamp. (Or maybe just a few brain cells that were going to die anyway). > -- > Ward Griffiths wdg3rd at comcast.net > > I thought about being diplomatic and polite. Honest, I really did. But while I was thinking about it, I accidentally bumped the button that puts my mouth on autopilot, because it said, "That's a load of crap, Captain, and you know it". Jim Butcher, _Small Favor_ > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > -- Coco mailing list Coco at maltedmedia.com http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.0/1862 - Release Date: 12/24/2008 11:49 AM From chadbh74 at hotmail.com Wed Dec 24 18:05:49 2008 From: chadbh74 at hotmail.com (Chad H) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 17:05:49 -0600 Subject: [Coco] Coco Clipboard Magazine Scans now Archived In-Reply-To: <714144.60672.qm@web30202.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <714144.60672.qm@web30202.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Looks like someone uploaded the scans to my CoCo repository as well. I moved them to the main site. They can be found at http://excalibur1.net/coco - Chad -----Original Message----- From: coco-bounces at maltedmedia.com [mailto:coco-bounces at maltedmedia.com] On Behalf Of Derek Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 6:31 PM To: CoCo List Subject: [Coco] Coco Clipboard Magazine Scans now Archived Thanks to Grandpa John for this set of CoCo Clipboard Magazines! He has been scanning and sharing a lot of important coco items. You can download this set here: http://rapidshare.com/files/175574124/coco_clipboard_magazine_scans.rar Thanks again to John for all the hard work and getting these to me for the archives! Happy Holidays to all! ** Mistrust Authority. Promote Decentralization ** -- Coco mailing list Coco at maltedmedia.com http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco From jlhickle at yahoo.com Wed Dec 24 18:08:56 2008 From: jlhickle at yahoo.com (Jim Hickle) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 15:08:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Coco] Christmas Greetings In-Reply-To: <003101c9661b$88afe9f0$9a0fbdd0$@com> Message-ID: <81.65561.qm@web36604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Warm and muddy here in Southwest Pennsylvania. Whatevery the weather at Christmas, God is good. I deeply regret the decades I ignored Him. -jim --- On Wed, 12/24/08, Tom Seagrove wrote: > From: Tom Seagrove > Subject: Re: [Coco] Christmas Greetings > To: "'CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts'" > Date: Wednesday, December 24, 2008, 6:01 PM > Odd you have so much compared to us in New York. It usually > is a lot more > on this side of the lake than up your way... > > It will be a white Christmas for all, in the north east at > least...... > > From dml_68 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 24 18:12:43 2008 From: dml_68 at yahoo.com (Derek) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 15:12:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Coco] Coco Clipboard Magazine Scans now Archived In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <606247.89260.qm@web30202.mail.mud.yahoo.com> That was me. I uploaded to my archive and yours Chad H wrote: Looks like someone uploaded the scans to my CoCo repository as well. I moved them to the main site. They can be found at http://excalibur1.net/coco - Chad -----Original Message----- From: coco-bounces at maltedmedia.com [mailto:coco-bounces at maltedmedia.com] On Behalf Of Derek Sent: Sunday, December 21, 2008 6:31 PM To: CoCo List Subject: [Coco] Coco Clipboard Magazine Scans now Archived Thanks to Grandpa John for this set of CoCo Clipboard Magazines! He has been scanning and sharing a lot of important coco items. You can download this set here: http://rapidshare.com/files/175574124/coco_clipboard_magazine_scans.rar Thanks again to John for all the hard work and getting these to me for the archives! Happy Holidays to all! ** Mistrust Authority. Promote Decentralization ** -- Coco mailing list Coco at maltedmedia.com http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco -- Coco mailing list Coco at maltedmedia.com http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco ** Mistrust Authority. Promote Decentralization ** From badfrog at gmail.com Wed Dec 24 18:37:13 2008 From: badfrog at gmail.com (Sean) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 17:37:13 -0600 Subject: [Coco] So how about sequels for classic CoCo games like Ghana Bwana in 3D for PC and Consoles? In-Reply-To: <122420082208.19956.4952B2DD000BBD3F00004DF422007340760B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> References: <122420082208.19956.4952B2DD000BBD3F00004DF422007340760B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> Message-ID: <9efa17da0812241537g6aa5c40egf14445158a478451@mail.gmail.com> You know, I never even knew there was tech support available for the CoCo... Could you just call in or what? Don't think I would have ever had a need for it, everything was pretty self explanatory. I would have just been calling in to say "how do you get past the Anaconda in Dallas Quest?" (Which I do remember the answer to. :) On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 4:08 PM, wrote: > From: "RJLCyberPunk" >> > Even see him here once in a while. >> >> Wow! You do? Like face to face? Man to me and my brothers and cousins he is >> a freaking legend with the games that he made and we played on the CoCo back >> in the day! If I ever saw him face to face I'd ask for the man's authograph >> he is our hero! :D > > Honest, he's not a god, he's just a nice guy and a hell of a programmer. "Back in the day" I used to see him fairly regularly, as he lived in the San Fernando Valley and I did tech support at the RSCC in downtown L.A. Happens at the time he was engaged to (and later married) a field tech who sometimes worked out of our repair shop, though she usually worked out of the RSCC down by LAX or the one in Beverly Hills. > > In those days, I was about the only person doing tech support for RS in SoCal who had any real fondness for (or gave any support for) the Color Computer line. (I made up for my support of low-ticket items by also being tops in support of the high-end Xenix systems, often farmed out to other RSCCs in the triangle between Santa Barbara, San Diego and San Bernardino to handle problems their CSRs couldn't handle). (And yes, I own a Tandy 6000HD along with all of my Color Computers, my Mod One, my 4 and 4P, my Mod 2 and my Mod 100s). My support for the Color Computer did get me one fan, practically a disciple. You've seen him if you ever watched the original "Beastmaster" movie. Josh Milrad, who played the young prince (and hasn't a major impact on the movie industry since then, as far as the IMDB can tell). > -- > Ward Griffiths wdg3rd at comcast.net > > I thought about being diplomatic and polite. Honest, I really did. But while I was thinking about it, I accidentally bumped the button that puts my mouth on autopilot, because it said, "That's a load of crap, Captain, and you know it". Jim Butcher, _Small Favor_ > > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > From wdg3rd at comcast.net Wed Dec 24 19:05:24 2008 From: wdg3rd at comcast.net (wdg3rd at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 00:05:24 +0000 Subject: [Coco] So how about sequels for classic CoCo games like Ghana Bwana in 3D for PC and Consoles? Message-ID: <122520080005.23074.4952CE4400031D6400005A2222007610640B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> > On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 4:08 PM, wrote: > > From: "RJLCyberPunk" > >> > Even see him here once in a while. > >> > >> Wow! You do? Like face to face? Man to me and my brothers and cousins he is > >> a freaking legend with the games that he made and we played on the CoCo back > >> in the day! If I ever saw him face to face I'd ask for the man's authograph > >> he is our hero! :D > > > Honest, he's not a god, he's just a nice guy and a hell of a programmer. > "Back in the day" I used to see him fairly regularly, as he lived in the San > Fernando Valley and I did tech support at the RSCC in downtown L.A. Happens at > the time he was engaged to (and later married) a field tech who sometimes worked > out of our repair shop, though she usually worked out of the RSCC down by LAX or > the one in Beverly Hills. > In those days, I was about the only person doing tech support for RS in SoCal > who had any real fondness for (or gave any support for) the Color Computer line. > (I made up for my support of low-ticket items by also being tops in support of > the high-end Xenix systems, often farmed out to other RSCCs in the triangle > between Santa Barbara, San Diego and San Bernardino to handle problems their > CSRs couldn't handle). (And yes, I own a Tandy 6000HD along with all of my > Color Computers, my Mod One, my 4 and 4P, my Mod 2 and my Mod 100s). My support > for the Color Computer did get me one fan, practically a disciple. You've seen > him if you ever watched the original "Beastmaster" movie. Josh Milrad, who > played the young prince (and hasn't a major impact on the movie industry since > then, as far as the IMDB can tell). From: Sean > You know, I never even knew there was tech support available for the > CoCo... Could you just call in or what? > Don't think I would have ever had a need for it, everything was pretty > self explanatory. I would have just been calling in to say "how do > you get past the Anaconda in Dallas Quest?" (Which I do remember the > answer to. :) I did not offer solutions to games, as I was not (and am not) a gamer. When I say technical support, I mean technical support. Problems reading disks, getting serial setups right, hassles with poor documentation, the real thing. I will state that half of the folks on this list are more technically competent in the guts of the Color Computer than I ever was. I did _retail level_ tech support, which in an RSCC was merely a step or two above asking the pimply faced youth at your local mall Radio Shack store. The most advanced I ever got in those days was setting up a multi-user OS-9 Level One system in the classroom of my RSCC. Which I think had some hack value at the time (1984). By then I'd been into Xenix for over a year, the OS-9 docs mentioned commands that implied the capability, so I tried it. It worked, though poorly (the bit-banger lost characters if you typed on the terminal (a Coco with a Vidtex cartridge) while the floppy on the "server" was being accessed). It wa s about $6k less than a T6k setup. (Though the T6k had eight times as much RAM and a dozen more and faster megabytes of storage and a 68k instead of a 6809 -- oh, and real terminals with real keyboards -- I was never happy with the standard issue Color Computer keyboards, from the chiclet to the Coco 3). -- Ward Griffiths wdg3rd at comcast.net I thought about being diplomatic and polite. Honest, I really did. But while I was thinking about it, I accidentally bumped the button that puts my mouth on autopilot, because it said, "That's a load of crap, Captain, and you know it". Jim Butcher, _Small Favor_ From cyberpunk at prtc.net Wed Dec 24 19:10:48 2008 From: cyberpunk at prtc.net (RJLCyberPunk) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 20:10:48 -0400 Subject: [Coco] So how about sequels for classic CoCo games like Ghana Bwana in 3D for PC and Consoles? References: <355188.20340.qm@web30203.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <70EAB304-B0C5-4269-8419-B0E068C7A8D7@pobox.com> <4951B0FF.9040708@embarqmail.com> <4952AA58.4030201@adinet.com.uy> Message-ID: > That's why I took an original Zaxxon tape to the 07 CoCoFest for :-) > I frankly cannot imagine how to outdo that Sega Classic! It's like trying to out do Outrun and while there are games whose graphics are far superior such as Cruising USA and a few others none have the feel that Outrun or Zaxxon did. This games would really need some serious thinking to really out do the originals. Ghana Bwana and a few others seem easier to port into the 21st century, Ghana Bwana being an action adventure game. From wdg3rd at comcast.net Wed Dec 24 19:38:27 2008 From: wdg3rd at comcast.net (wdg3rd at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 00:38:27 +0000 Subject: [Coco] So how about sequels for classic CoCo games like Ghana Bwana in 3D for PC and Consoles? Message-ID: <122520080038.25425.4952D603000353E30000635122058861720B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> From: "RJLCyberPunk" > > > That's why I took an original Zaxxon tape to the 07 CoCoFest for :-) > > > > I frankly cannot imagine how to outdo that Sega Classic! It's like trying to > out do Outrun and while there are games whose graphics are far superior such > as Cruising USA and a few others none have the feel that Outrun or Zaxxon > did. This games would really need some serious thinking to really out do the > originals. Ghana Bwana and a few others seem easier to port into the 21st > century, Ghana Bwana being an action adventure game. Have there been many games from an oblique angle like Zaxxon? Most were from the side, from straight above, or head-on (most of the modern first-person shooters). I mentioned I'm not much of a gamer, haven't been in an arcade in over five years and I played pinball while my first wife, her husband and La Esposa played Ski-Ball over at Coney Island. -- Ward Griffiths wdg3rd at comcast.net I thought about being diplomatic and polite. Honest, I really did. But while I was thinking about it, I accidentally bumped the button that puts my mouth on autopilot, because it said, "That's a load of crap, Captain, and you know it". Jim Butcher, _Small Favor_ From chadbh74 at hotmail.com Wed Dec 24 20:34:43 2008 From: chadbh74 at hotmail.com (Chad H) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 19:34:43 -0600 Subject: [Coco] Possible CoCo Bulletin Board forum Message-ID: From chadbh74 at hotmail.com Wed Dec 24 20:39:49 2008 From: chadbh74 at hotmail.com (Chad H) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 19:39:49 -0600 Subject: [Coco] Possible CoCo Bulletin Board forum Message-ID: Hi, I get e-mails all the time on this list and enjoy hearing all the chatter still going on in the CoCo community. However, I find the mail box for this address is often filled with posts concerning topics which.frankly, I find little interest in. Even the topics I do find interesting tend to add up resulting in clutter in my mail box until I finally go in and delete old messages. I was wondering how others here manage their messages received from this mailing list. I understand I don't have to get the messages in my mail box. I've found web pages where the same posts exist, but I'm not too fond of the organization of those pages. Seem too tedious to find messages associated with specific topics and in the proper chronological order. I thought wouldn't it be nice if we had our own bulletin board forum site where we could keep topics and posts easily grouped and categorized without cluttering up our personal email boxes. I'm not saying do away with using this mailing list per say, I believe it has its uses, but I would enjoy being able to go to a CoCo forum and look at recent topics and click on a topic of interest of and see what's going on with it. If such a CoCo forum exists already, especially a popular one, could someone please point it out to me? If none exist I have a bulletin board system already in place where we could start one....if there is interest. - Chad From cyberpunk at prtc.net Wed Dec 24 21:17:06 2008 From: cyberpunk at prtc.net (RJLCyberPunk) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 22:17:06 -0400 Subject: [Coco] Possible CoCo Bulletin Board forum References: Message-ID: Go here my friend! http://coco3.com/modules.php?name=Forums From chadbh74 at hotmail.com Wed Dec 24 21:30:08 2008 From: chadbh74 at hotmail.com (Chad H) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 20:30:08 -0600 Subject: [Coco] Possible CoCo Bulletin Board forum In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Excellent! Thanks for the pointer, I saw that coco3 site a long time ago but dismissed it initially as a coco-3 only site and I don't have a CoCo 3 but upon closer inspection now I see there's more. -----Original Message----- From: coco-bounces at maltedmedia.com [mailto:coco-bounces at maltedmedia.com] On Behalf Of RJLCyberPunk Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2008 8:17 PM To: CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts Subject: Re: [Coco] Possible CoCo Bulletin Board forum Go here my friend! http://coco3.com/modules.php?name=Forums -- Coco mailing list Coco at maltedmedia.com http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco From diegoba at adinet.com.uy Wed Dec 24 21:33:46 2008 From: diegoba at adinet.com.uy (Diego Barizo) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 00:33:46 -0200 Subject: [Coco] New programs for new CoCo possibilities Message-ID: <4952F10A.3080107@adinet.com.uy> When about a year ago I got my Super IDE, I realized that there seems to be not much software that takes advantage of the hardware, at least under BASIC. That's why I've been working in a file manager (http://yaccs.info/PROGRAMAS/XFILER/xfiler.html , http://www.coco3.com/modules.php?name=Gallery&g2_itemId=927 ) Now with CoCoNet about to show up, there are lots of new doors waiting to be opened, but we need to get them opened. Maybe this is a good chance for YOU to write some program or small utility? It could also be your last chance to participate in the Asimov Awards (http://yaccs.info/AA/aa.html) Yes, this is you let you know that the deadline for the Awards is getting closer :-) , and since there is only one program participating so far, this will probably be the last edition. PS Merry Xmas and a Happy 2009 From exwn8jef at gmail.com Wed Dec 24 21:40:26 2008 From: exwn8jef at gmail.com (N8WQ) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 21:40:26 -0500 Subject: [Coco] 256K RAM chips In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4952F29A.3080900@gmail.com> Can you guys tell me if I might be able to use these memory chips in a Color Computer 3 project? Any ideas? http://exwn8jef.googlepages.com/cocoprojects Alan Jones -- N8WQ - Canal Winchester, Ohio http://exwn8jef.googlepages.com/home http://n8wq.blogspot.com From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 24 21:50:12 2008 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 02:50:12 +0000 Subject: [Coco] 256K RAM chips In-Reply-To: <4952F29A.3080900@gmail.com> References: <4952F29A.3080900@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4952F4E4.9070504@aurigae.demon.co.uk> N8WQ wrote: > Can you guys tell me if I might be able to use these memory chips in a > Color Computer 3 project? Any ideas? > > http://exwn8jef.googlepages.com/cocoprojects Yep I have a load of them off 486/Pentium motherboards, they are 32Kx8, static ram and at -15, you're not going to have any speed issues....as they are 15ns, for comparison the 4164s in my upgraded Dragon 32 are 200ns...... Cheers. Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From badfrog at gmail.com Wed Dec 24 22:19:31 2008 From: badfrog at gmail.com (Sean) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 21:19:31 -0600 Subject: [Coco] So how about sequels for classic CoCo games like Ghana Bwana in 3D for PC and Consoles? In-Reply-To: <122520080038.25425.4952D603000353E30000635122058861720B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> References: <122520080038.25425.4952D603000353E30000635122058861720B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> Message-ID: <9efa17da0812241919v545cef1dqdb8103bdc47ada46@mail.gmail.com> Zaxxon was unique being a shooter from that angle, I can't think of another popular one using that view. But it inspired many games, it's referred to as 'isomorphic view' now. X-Com early on the PCs, Diablo, Neverwinter Nights, etc. I think even games like Marble Madness would have been influenced by that Zaxxon perspective. On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 6:38 PM, wrote: > From: "RJLCyberPunk" >> >> > That's why I took an original Zaxxon tape to the 07 CoCoFest for :-) >> > >> >> I frankly cannot imagine how to outdo that Sega Classic! It's like trying to >> out do Outrun and while there are games whose graphics are far superior such >> as Cruising USA and a few others none have the feel that Outrun or Zaxxon >> did. This games would really need some serious thinking to really out do the >> originals. Ghana Bwana and a few others seem easier to port into the 21st >> century, Ghana Bwana being an action adventure game. > > Have there been many games from an oblique angle like Zaxxon? Most were from the side, from straight above, or head-on (most of the modern first-person shooters). I mentioned I'm not much of a gamer, haven't been in an arcade in over five years and I played pinball while my first wife, her husband and La Esposa played Ski-Ball over at Coney Island. > -- > Ward Griffiths wdg3rd at comcast.net > > I thought about being diplomatic and polite. Honest, I really did. But while I was thinking about it, I accidentally bumped the button that puts my mouth on autopilot, because it said, "That's a load of crap, Captain, and you know it". Jim Butcher, _Small Favor_ > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > From diegoba at adinet.com.uy Wed Dec 24 22:37:44 2008 From: diegoba at adinet.com.uy (Diego Barizo) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 01:37:44 -0200 Subject: [Coco] So how about sequels for classic CoCo games like Ghana Bwana in 3D for PC and Consoles? In-Reply-To: <9efa17da0812241919v545cef1dqdb8103bdc47ada46@mail.gmail.com> References: <122520080038.25425.4952D603000353E30000635122058861720B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> <9efa17da0812241919v545cef1dqdb8103bdc47ada46@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49530008.50601@adinet.com.uy> It could be nice to have an updated Zaxxon like game, but that would work as somewhat a flight simulator (1st person view) Diego Sean wrote: > Zaxxon was unique being a shooter from that angle, I can't think of > another popular one using that view. But it inspired many games, it's > referred to as 'isomorphic view' now. X-Com early on the PCs, Diablo, > Neverwinter Nights, etc. I think even games like Marble Madness would > have been influenced by that Zaxxon perspective. > > On Wed, Dec 24, 2008 at 6:38 PM,< > From gene.heskett at verizon.net Wed Dec 24 23:30:22 2008 From: gene.heskett at verizon.net (Gene Heskett) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 23:30:22 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Christmas Greetings In-Reply-To: <81.65561.qm@web36604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <81.65561.qm@web36604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200812242330.22589.gene.heskett@verizon.net> On Wednesday 24 December 2008, Jim Hickle wrote: >Warm and muddy here in Southwest Pennsylvania. Ditto 175 miles south of you Jim. Even this late at night its still 39F at the airport in Clarksburg. 17 miles north of me. >Whatevery the weather at Christmas, God is good. >I deeply regret the decades I ignored Him. I too am gaining a better appreciation as I age. >-jim > >--- On Wed, 12/24/08, Tom Seagrove wrote: >> From: Tom Seagrove >> Subject: Re: [Coco] Christmas Greetings >> To: "'CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts'" >> Date: Wednesday, December 24, 2008, 6:01 PM >> Odd you have so much compared to us in New York. It usually >> is a lot more >> on this side of the lake than up your way... >> >> It will be a white Christmas for all, in the north east at >> least...... > >-- >Coco mailing list >Coco at maltedmedia.com >http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco -- Cheers, Gene "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) The most delightful day after the one on which you buy a cottage in the country is the one on which you resell it. -- J. Brecheux From gene.heskett at verizon.net Wed Dec 24 23:37:35 2008 From: gene.heskett at verizon.net (Gene Heskett) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 23:37:35 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Possible CoCo Bulletin Board forum In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200812242337.35389.gene.heskett@verizon.net> On Wednesday 24 December 2008, Chad H wrote: >Hi, I get e-mails all the time on this list and enjoy hearing all the >chatter still going on in the CoCo community. > >However, I find the mail box for this address is often filled with posts >concerning topics which.frankly, I find little interest in. > >Even the topics I do find interesting tend to add up resulting in clutter in >my mail box until I finally go in and delete old messages. > > > >I was wondering how others here manage their messages received from this >mailing list. I understand I don't have to get the messages in my mail box. > >I've found web pages where the same posts exist, but I'm not too fond of the >organization of those pages. Seem too tedious to find messages associated >with specific topics and in the proper chronological order. I thought >wouldn't it be nice if we had our own bulletin board forum site where we >could keep topics and posts easily grouped and categorized without >cluttering up our personal email boxes. I'm not saying do away with using >this mailing list per say, I believe it has its uses, but I would enjoy >being able to go to a CoCo forum and look at recent topics and click on a >topic of interest of and see what's going on with it. If such a CoCo forum >exists already, especially a popular one, could someone please point it out >to me? If none exist I have a bulletin board system already in place where >we could start one....if there is interest. > This is pretty much it for mailing lists for the coco. And its one list I don't expire regularly. So my corpus of email from this list goes back to Dec 2001, when I had to reinstall after a drive failure and wasn't able to recover from the crappy tape system I was using for backups then. Now I use virtual tapes on a big hard drive, and that appears to be at least 100x more dependable than DDS2 tapes ever were. As for forums, logging into one of them is more trouble than its worth to me, email is faster, often by days. > >- Chad > > > > >-- >Coco mailing list >Coco at maltedmedia.com >http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco -- Cheers, Gene "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Linus' Law: There is no heavier burden than a great potential. From gene.heskett at verizon.net Wed Dec 24 23:40:40 2008 From: gene.heskett at verizon.net (Gene Heskett) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 23:40:40 -0500 Subject: [Coco] 256K RAM chips In-Reply-To: <4952F29A.3080900@gmail.com> References: <4952F29A.3080900@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200812242340.41027.gene.heskett@verizon.net> On Wednesday 24 December 2008, N8WQ wrote: >Can you guys tell me if I might be able to use these memory chips in a >Color Computer 3 project? Any ideas? > >http://exwn8jef.googlepages.com/cocoprojects > >Alan Jones I hate to admit it Alan, but I don't recognize the logo. Take those numbers to google & see if a data sheet can be found. The showstopper is the refresh counter in the coco I believe. -- Cheers, Gene "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Mickey Mouse wears a Spiro Agnew watch. From gene.heskett at verizon.net Wed Dec 24 23:42:14 2008 From: gene.heskett at verizon.net (Gene Heskett) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 23:42:14 -0500 Subject: [Coco] 256K RAM chips In-Reply-To: <4952F4E4.9070504@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <4952F29A.3080900@gmail.com> <4952F4E4.9070504@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <200812242342.14755.gene.heskett@verizon.net> On Wednesday 24 December 2008, Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: >N8WQ wrote: >> Can you guys tell me if I might be able to use these memory chips in a >> Color Computer 3 project? Any ideas? >> >> http://exwn8jef.googlepages.com/cocoprojects > >Yep I have a load of them off 486/Pentium motherboards, they are 32Kx8, >static ram and at -15, you're not going to have any speed issues....as >they are 15ns, for comparison the 4164s in my upgraded Dragon 32 are >200ns...... Static rams? Great, forget my remark about the refresh counter, they will work. >Cheers. > >Phill. -- Cheers, Gene "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) All other things being equal, a bald man cannot be elected President of the United States. -- Vic Gold From operator at coco3.com Thu Dec 25 00:06:43 2008 From: operator at coco3.com (Roger Taylor) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 23:06:43 -0600 Subject: [Coco] 256K RAM chips In-Reply-To: <4952F4E4.9070504@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <4952F29A.3080900@gmail.com> <4952F4E4.9070504@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <20081225050649.EF62220A14@qs281.pair.com> At 08:50 PM 12/24/2008, you wrote: >N8WQ wrote: >>Can you guys tell me if I might be able to use these memory chips >>in a Color Computer 3 project? Any ideas? >>http://exwn8jef.googlepages.com/cocoprojects > >Yep I have a load of them off 486/Pentium motherboards, they are >32Kx8, static ram and at -15, you're not going to have any speed >issues....as they are 15ns, for comparison the 4164s in my upgraded >Dragon 32 are 200ns...... > >Cheers. > >Phill. So you're saying the CoCo could use these chips as-is plus they retain their memory when the power is off? -- Roger Taylor http://www.wordofthedayonline.com From kevdig at hypersurf.com Thu Dec 25 00:22:07 2008 From: kevdig at hypersurf.com (Kevin Diggs) Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2008 21:22:07 -0800 Subject: [Coco] Christmas Greetings In-Reply-To: <81.65561.qm@web36604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <81.65561.qm@web36604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4953187F.4020409@hypersurf.com> Jim Hickle wrote: > Warm and muddy here in Southwest Pennsylvania. > Whatevery the weather at Christmas, God is good. > I deeply regret the decades I ignored Him. > > -jim > Ditto. If you're sincere I hear He has a forgiving nature. From gene.heskett at verizon.net Thu Dec 25 00:42:54 2008 From: gene.heskett at verizon.net (Gene Heskett) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 00:42:54 -0500 Subject: [Coco] 256K RAM chips In-Reply-To: <20081225050649.EF62220A14@qs281.pair.com> References: <4952F4E4.9070504@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <20081225050649.EF62220A14@qs281.pair.com> Message-ID: <200812250042.54301.gene.heskett@verizon.net> On Thursday 25 December 2008, Roger Taylor wrote: >At 08:50 PM 12/24/2008, you wrote: >>N8WQ wrote: >>>Can you guys tell me if I might be able to use these memory chips >>>in a Color Computer 3 project? Any ideas? >>>http://exwn8jef.googlepages.com/cocoprojects >> >>Yep I have a load of them off 486/Pentium motherboards, they are >>32Kx8, static ram and at -15, you're not going to have any speed >>issues....as they are 15ns, for comparison the 4164s in my upgraded >>Dragon 32 are 200ns...... >> >>Cheers. >> >>Phill. > >So you're saying the CoCo could use these chips as-is plus they >retain their memory when the power is off? No Roger. 'static' means they do not need the refresh pump that drams need. Also at 32x8, a wee bit of address decoding will need to be done, but only the high bit, this is solved in the coco2's by simply feeding the high address bit through an inverter so that one or the other chip is enabled, but not both. I'm not sure howto do that, and where, in a coco3. -- Cheers, Gene "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Deliver yesterday, code today, think tomorrow. From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu Dec 25 10:47:56 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 10:47:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Coco] Possible CoCo Bulletin Board forum In-Reply-To: <200812242337.35389.gene.heskett@verizon.net> References: <200812242337.35389.gene.heskett@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Dec 2008, Gene Heskett wrote: > This is pretty much it for mailing lists for the coco. And its one list I > don't expire regularly. So my corpus of email from this list goes back to > Dec 2001, when I had to reinstall after a drive failure and wasn't able to > recover from the crappy tape system I was using for backups then. Now I use > virtual tapes on a big hard drive, and that appears to be at least 100x more > dependable than DDS2 tapes ever were. Sorry you found out the hard way about rotary-head digital tape drives. My experience with both 4mm and 8mm DAT suggests you can achieve similar results by simply making a "backup" and throwing the tape away :-(. If you are ever interested in a reliable tape system, pickup a DLT IV drive and media from eBay (dirt-cheap, generally). These are stationary-head systems with very sophisticated tape handling (e.g. no pinch roller, no pressure rollers nor rubber of ANY kind involved). It's seriously difficult to kill data on a DLT cartridge. I've personally seen cases where tapes run over a bulk eraser were still readable! The drives use read-after-write to ensure integrity and will redo any blocks that fail CRC (up to a limit). The lack of read-back is a serious issue for the rotary-head transports which are mechanically incapable of it (at least AFAIK). Steve -- From gene.heskett at verizon.net Thu Dec 25 11:28:29 2008 From: gene.heskett at verizon.net (Gene Heskett) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 11:28:29 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Possible CoCo Bulletin Board forum In-Reply-To: References: <200812242337.35389.gene.heskett@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200812251128.29092.gene.heskett@verizon.net> On Thursday 25 December 2008, Steven Hirsch wrote: >On Wed, 24 Dec 2008, Gene Heskett wrote: >> This is pretty much it for mailing lists for the coco. And its one list I >> don't expire regularly. So my corpus of email from this list goes back to >> Dec 2001, when I had to reinstall after a drive failure and wasn't able to >> recover from the crappy tape system I was using for backups then. Now I >> use virtual tapes on a big hard drive, and that appears to be at least >> 100x more dependable than DDS2 tapes ever were. > >Sorry you found out the hard way about rotary-head digital tape drives. >My experience with both 4mm and 8mm DAT suggests you can achieve similar >results by simply making a "backup" and throwing the tape away :-(. Mine wasn't that bad, I still have tapes I made on the amiga that were readable under linux the last time I had a working drive. IMO the problem is the inherent short life of the head drums, rarely over 1000 running hours. In other words, no better than a typical vhs head. I tried to obtain replacement heads from seagate, but they refused to sell me a head, or any of the calibration tools. I felt that was nearly the ultimate insult because at the time I was replacing a dvc-pro head at least weekly in one of the many machines we had at the tv station. IIRC 22 of them at the time. And if you've never seen a dvc-pro head, the DDS heads are truely monsters in comparison, spinning at 1/8th the rpms IIRC. The dvc-pro head is almost the size of a quarter and costs nearly 3 grand now-a-days, the toolkit is about 7 grand plus the tapes, 3 of them at $500 a copy. The format was and is a good one, heads typically lasted 4-7k hours, which was 3.5-6.5k hours longer than the thousands of teeny little electrolytics that were surface nounted in those machines. The largest was pencil eraser sized. I started tossing them in a 3 pound coffee can, and by the time I retired, was on the 3rd can. I miss that part of the job with the same enthusiasm as I'd have for a broken ankle. Now we have a couple of them still running for archival retrieval, but even the news cameras record to hard drives treated as cassettes to get it to the editors and ready for air. Many times more dependable. >If you are ever interested in a reliable tape system, pickup a DLT IV >drive and media from eBay (dirt-cheap, generally). These are >stationary-head systems with very sophisticated tape handling (e.g. no >pinch roller, no pressure rollers nor rubber of ANY kind involved). > >It's seriously difficult to kill data on a DLT cartridge. I've personally >seen cases where tapes run over a bulk eraser were still readable! The >drives use read-after-write to ensure integrity and will redo any blocks >that fail CRC (up to a limit). The lack of read-back is a serious issue >for the rotary-head transports which are mechanically incapable of it (at >least AFAIK). Bulk erasers don't have the cajones to erase a data or vieo tape unless it says Garner on it. Anyway, the virtual tapes, on a 500GB hard drive, are many times more dependable, I've not lost a byte since. And I don't worry about backups, I have a user named amanda who runs herself evey morning at a little after 1 and does all that without any interference from me. >Steve The drives I was using, the Seagate 4 tape changer, did I believe have readback. There are 6 heads on the drum in two groups of 3, opposite sides. -- Cheers, Gene "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) The early bird gets the coffee left over from the night before. From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu Dec 25 13:20:02 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 13:20:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Coco] Possible CoCo Bulletin Board forum In-Reply-To: <200812251128.29092.gene.heskett@verizon.net> References: <200812242337.35389.gene.heskett@verizon.net> <200812251128.29092.gene.heskett@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Dec 2008, Gene Heskett wrote: >> It's seriously difficult to kill data on a DLT cartridge. I've personally >> seen cases where tapes run over a bulk eraser were still readable! The >> drives use read-after-write to ensure integrity and will redo any blocks >> that fail CRC (up to a limit). The lack of read-back is a serious issue >> for the rotary-head transports which are mechanically incapable of it (at >> least AFAIK). > > Bulk erasers don't have the cajones to erase a data or vieo tape unless it > says Garner on it. Ah. Now I know what to look for! I've been using an older Nortronics unit intended for reel-to-reel audio tape. Whenever I have to wipe a data cartridge, I place a U-shaped piece of steel over the top to focus the flux lines. Buzzes like a b*tch, but gets the job done :-). > Anyway, the virtual tapes, on a 500GB hard drive, are many times more > dependable, I've not lost a byte since. And I don't worry about backups, I > have a user named amanda who runs herself evey morning at a little after 1 > and does all that without any interference from me. I would be very concerned about putting all my eggs in one basket like that. My working theory on hard drives is that there are two types: Those that have failed already and those that are about to. That's why data-retention experts recommend against using RAID for archival purposes, BTW. Just because the chances of losing >1 drive in a RAID-5 array are infinitesmal does not mean it cannot happen. I didn't realize that rotary head devices were capable of supporting read-after-write. Thanks for the update! Steve -- From petrander at gmail.com Thu Dec 25 15:23:46 2008 From: petrander at gmail.com (Fedor Steeman) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 21:23:46 +0100 Subject: [Coco] New programs for new CoCo possibilities In-Reply-To: <4952F10A.3080107@adinet.com.uy> References: <4952F10A.3080107@adinet.com.uy> Message-ID: Hi Diego, Yeah, I was already wondering about that when it showed up on the gallery. I didn't realize it was an entirely new program! It would be a shame if this would the the last Asimov Awards, but I can't blame you. Sometimes it can feel like shouting in the desert, when everyone seems so caught up with their everyday lives. Me myself I am suffering heavily from CoCo-projectitis but also too little time to really dig into something in particular. However, the past few days being off, I actually got close to the bottom of some projects. I don't think I will be able to generate anything before the end of the year, but I do have some halfway projects that are CoCo-related, but only run on a modern PC. Since the rules don't say anything about it being able to run on a CoCo, but only be something for the CoCo community, methinkest it ought to be legit. ;-) Cheers, Fedor 2008/12/25 Diego Barizo > When about a year ago I got my Super IDE, I realized that there seems to be > not much software that takes advantage of the hardware, at least under > BASIC. > That's why I've been working in a file manager ( > http://yaccs.info/PROGRAMAS/XFILER/xfiler.html , > http://www.coco3.com/modules.php?name=Gallery&g2_itemId=927 ) > Now with CoCoNet about to show up, there are lots of new doors waiting to > be opened, but we need to get them opened. > Maybe this is a good chance for YOU to write some program or small utility? > It could also be your last chance to participate in the Asimov Awards ( > http://yaccs.info/AA/aa.html) > > Yes, this is you let you know that the deadline for the Awards is getting > closer :-) , and since there is only one program participating so far, this > will probably be the last edition. > > PS Merry Xmas and a Happy 2009 > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > From jmckay at jmk1.freeserve.co.uk Thu Dec 25 16:54:37 2008 From: jmckay at jmk1.freeserve.co.uk (James McKay) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 21:54:37 -0000 Subject: [Coco] New programs for new CoCo possibilities References: <4952F10A.3080107@adinet.com.uy> Message-ID: "Diego Barizo" wrote in message news:4952F10A.3080107 at adinet.com.uy... > Maybe this is a good chance for YOU to write some program or small > utility? It could also be your last chance to participate in the Asimov > Awards (http://yaccs.info/AA/aa.html) > > Yes, this is you let you know that the deadline for the Awards is getting > closer :-) , and since there is only one program participating so far, > this will probably be the last edition. Hi Diego! Sorry to hear that, time is the great enemy for everyone. I can only think of the Minigame Compo and MSXDev as successful sources of new development these days (neither Coco/Dragon). CoCo-wise, things are very quiet on this side of the Atlantic. If someone opened a CoCo forum and a spammer posted on it, that would be a significant development! I'm working on a little game conversion, but as it's not an original title, I doubt it can be entered into any competition. http://www.indigobanquet.adsl24.co.uk/coco/deathchase/deathchase.htm bye, James McKay. From gene.heskett at verizon.net Thu Dec 25 23:39:02 2008 From: gene.heskett at verizon.net (Gene Heskett) Date: Thu, 25 Dec 2008 23:39:02 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Possible CoCo Bulletin Board forum In-Reply-To: References: <200812251128.29092.gene.heskett@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200812252339.02410.gene.heskett@verizon.net> On Thursday 25 December 2008, Steven Hirsch wrote: >On Thu, 25 Dec 2008, Gene Heskett wrote: >>> It's seriously difficult to kill data on a DLT cartridge. I've >>> personally seen cases where tapes run over a bulk eraser were still >>> readable! The drives use read-after-write to ensure integrity and will >>> redo any blocks that fail CRC (up to a limit). The lack of read-back is >>> a serious issue for the rotary-head transports which are mechanically >>> incapable of it (at least AFAIK). >> >> Bulk erasers don't have the cajones to erase a data or vieo tape unless it >> says Garner on it. > >Ah. Now I know what to look for! I've been using an older Nortronics >unit intended for reel-to-reel audio tape. Whenever I have to wipe a data >cartridge, I place a U-shaped piece of steel over the top to focus the >flux lines. Buzzes like a b*tch, but gets the job done :-). > >> Anyway, the virtual tapes, on a 500GB hard drive, are many times more >> dependable, I've not lost a byte since. And I don't worry about backups, >> I have a user named amanda who runs herself evey morning at a little after >> 1 and does all that without any interference from me. > >I would be very concerned about putting all my eggs in one basket like >that. My working theory on hard drives is that there are two types: > >Those that have failed already and those that are about to. I tend to agree, but it has also been my experience that if one peruses the logs, you will see an error or 30 before they drop over. I use that for a hint to get my butt to town and get another drive and copy it to the new drive, before the failure is total. I have done that twice since 2001 when I switched. >That's why data-retention experts recommend against using RAID for >archival purposes, BTW. Just because the chances of losing >1 drive in a >RAID-5 array are infinitesmal does not mean it cannot happen. Particularly if they are Velociraptors, one fellow on lkml has in the last month lost all 5 of them in his raid. >I didn't realize that rotary head devices were capable of supporting >read-after-write. Thanks for the update! With enough $$ thrown at the head, it can be done. The dvc-pro also does this unless its doing an insert mode. IIRC the normal record head is then the erase head because its track is a few microns narrower, and the confidence head actually writes the new data. I think. >Steve -- Cheers, Gene "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) What orators lack in depth they make up in length. From snhirsch at gmail.com Fri Dec 26 08:57:01 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 08:57:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Coco] Possible CoCo Bulletin Board forum In-Reply-To: <200812252339.02410.gene.heskett@verizon.net> References: <200812251128.29092.gene.heskett@verizon.net> <200812252339.02410.gene.heskett@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 25 Dec 2008, Gene Heskett wrote: >>> Anyway, the virtual tapes, on a 500GB hard drive, are many times more >>> dependable, I've not lost a byte since. And I don't worry about backups, >>> I have a user named amanda who runs herself evey morning at a little after >>> 1 and does all that without any interference from me. >> >> I would be very concerned about putting all my eggs in one basket like >> that. My working theory on hard drives is that there are two types: >> >> Those that have failed already and those that are about to. > > I tend to agree, but it has also been my experience that if one peruses the > logs, you will see an error or 30 before they drop over. I use that for a > hint to get my butt to town and get another drive and copy it to the new > drive, before the failure is total. I have done that twice since 2001 when I > switched. This is drifting a bit off-topic (perhaps an understatement), so one last remark. Google published a comprehensive study of drive reliability based on their own in-house experience with the subject. ISTR that they found little correlation between advance warnings from SMART and impending failure. I guess it comes down to one's comfort factor in the long run, though. -- From gene.heskett at verizon.net Fri Dec 26 09:29:29 2008 From: gene.heskett at verizon.net (Gene Heskett) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 09:29:29 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Possible CoCo Bulletin Board forum In-Reply-To: References: <200812252339.02410.gene.heskett@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200812260929.29124.gene.heskett@verizon.net> On Friday 26 December 2008, Steven Hirsch wrote: >On Thu, 25 Dec 2008, Gene Heskett wrote: >>>> Anyway, the virtual tapes, on a 500GB hard drive, are many times more >>>> dependable, I've not lost a byte since. And I don't worry about >>>> backups, I have a user named amanda who runs herself evey morning at a >>>> little after 1 and does all that without any interference from me. >>> >>> I would be very concerned about putting all my eggs in one basket like >>> that. My working theory on hard drives is that there are two types: >>> >>> Those that have failed already and those that are about to. >> >> I tend to agree, but it has also been my experience that if one peruses >> the logs, you will see an error or 30 before they drop over. I use that >> for a hint to get my butt to town and get another drive and copy it to the >> new drive, before the failure is total. I have done that twice since 2001 >> when I switched. > >This is drifting a bit off-topic (perhaps an understatement), so one last >remark. Google published a comprehensive study of drive reliability based >on their own in-house experience with the subject. ISTR that they found >little correlation between advance warnings from SMART and impending >failure. I guess it comes down to one's comfort factor in the long run, >though. I look at them occasionally just for grins & if I see an error than smartctl gets a wakeup call. A drive with 200k logged retries is soon laying in a pile of similar drives, to be used for test installs, a paperweight or whatever around here. A little paranoia is cheap compared to losing it all. -- Cheers, Gene "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Data, n.: Computerspeak for "information". Properly pronounced the way Bostonians pronounce the word for a female child. From vchester at setec-cr.com Fri Dec 26 10:39:33 2008 From: vchester at setec-cr.com (Chester Patterson) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 09:39:33 -0600 Subject: [Coco] New programs for new CoCo possibilities In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <55693FEB08A44441A37860454A99CE36@chester> Speaking of being caught up in our everyday lives... Please welcome to the world Chester William Patterson, born 5 December 2008. And I definately plan to bring him up on a Coco, when the time is right! /Chester -Costa Rica -----Original Message----- ... when everyone seems so caught up with their everyday lives ... From gene.heskett at verizon.net Fri Dec 26 11:15:59 2008 From: gene.heskett at verizon.net (Gene Heskett) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 11:15:59 -0500 Subject: [Coco] New programs for new CoCo possibilities In-Reply-To: <55693FEB08A44441A37860454A99CE36@chester> References: <55693FEB08A44441A37860454A99CE36@chester> Message-ID: <200812261115.59525.gene.heskett@verizon.net> On Friday 26 December 2008, Chester Patterson wrote: >Speaking of being caught up in our everyday lives... Please welcome to the >world Chester William Patterson, born 5 December 2008. >And I definately plan to bring him up on a Coco, when the time is right! > Congratulations Chester. Now does this make you a daddy, a grandfather or ? -- Cheers, Gene "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Consultant, n.: An ordinary man a long way from home. From spam_proof at verizon.net Fri Dec 26 11:24:38 2008 From: spam_proof at verizon.net (Aaron Banerjee) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 11:24:38 -0500 Subject: [Coco] New programs for new CoCo possibilities In-Reply-To: <55693FEB08A44441A37860454A99CE36@chester> References: <55693FEB08A44441A37860454A99CE36@chester> Message-ID: Congratulations Chester! I've got a small son who is now 8 years old. I started him on the Coco. It actually worked very well. The games were simpler and easier for kids to understand. By the way, I would recommend "Peanut Butter Panic" -- when the time is right. My son and I used to spend hours playing that game. - Aaron Banerjee On Dec 26, 2008, at 10:39 AM, Chester Patterson wrote: > Speaking of being caught up in our everyday lives... Please welcome > to the > world Chester William Patterson, born 5 December 2008. > And I definately plan to bring him up on a Coco, when the time is > right! > > /Chester > -Costa Rica > > -----Original Message----- > ... when everyone seems so caught up with their everyday lives ... > > > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco From briang0671 at sbcglobal.net Sat Dec 27 00:12:31 2008 From: briang0671 at sbcglobal.net (Brian Goers) Date: Fri, 26 Dec 2008 23:12:31 -0600 Subject: [Coco] New programs for new CoCo possibilities In-Reply-To: <55693FEB08A44441A37860454A99CE36@chester> References: <55693FEB08A44441A37860454A99CE36@chester> Message-ID: <4955B93F.8000909@sbcglobal.net> Chester Patterson wrote: > Speaking of being caught up in our everyday lives... Please welcome to the > world Chester William Patterson, born 5 December 2008. > And I definately plan to bring him up on a Coco, when the time is right! > > /Chester > -Costa Rica > > -----Original Message----- > ... when everyone seems so caught up with their everyday lives ... > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > > Congratulations, I hope everyone is well. Brian -- Brian Goers Glenside Vice-President of Special Events IDE Boards are available. The 18th Annual ?LAST? Chicago CoCoFEST! Will be held March 28 & 29 2009 Holiday Inn & Suites Elgin. From operator at coco3.com Sat Dec 27 01:37:15 2008 From: operator at coco3.com (Roger Taylor) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 00:37:15 -0600 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet Message-ID: <20081227063735.494C320A13@qs281.pair.com> Some updates CoCoNet is currently (while I type) reading a .php file from CoCo3.com once every SECOND in 115200 bps mode, and about 2.5 seconds in 57600 bps mode, which includes printing the readout to the WIDTH 80 screen. It's about 11 lines of text generated by the .php script. The complete turnaround is 1 second in 115200 bps mode. Impressed? I also added 16-bit CRC checking for sector transfers, with multiple retries on bad sectors and unresponsive/slow server. SAVEW "URL","COCOFILE.EXT" has been confusing to some even though SAVE still saves a disk file, only the new W means to save a web file to the virtual disk. It stands for Save Web File "URL" to CoCo Virtual Disk File. The saving is done by the PC/server to a mounted virtual disk. To read the web file, we simply OPEN the file since it's on a mounted "disk". To make a hardcopy of the file, just BACKUP (virtual drive) to (real drive), or COPY "virtual disk file" TO "real disk file", or just leave the file on the virtual disk since that's the idea anyway to get away from real floppies if possible. The last test I ran went for almost 2 days straight and it read the front page of CoCo3.com over 16,000 times and dumped the HTML to the CoCo screen. This was before the 16-bit CRC checking and unresponsive/slow server retries, etc. I added tonight. This should help with PCs with dial-up connections or on a bogged down network. -- Roger Taylor http://www.wordofthedayonline.com From vchester at setec-cr.com Sat Dec 27 10:25:51 2008 From: vchester at setec-cr.com (Chester Patterson) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 09:25:51 -0600 Subject: [Coco] New programs for new CoCo possibilities In-Reply-To: <200812261115.59525.gene.heskett@verizon.net> Message-ID: <0D906DD343874CEF869039655E1870DA@chester> Grandpa was Chester Dad is Chester (84) I am Chester (49) Now Chester4 (3 weeks) And a happy bunch of Chets we are! Yeah, I know, kinda late to be having kids. Came as a bit of a surprise! Totally unplanned. And a blessing from heaven! /Chet3 -----Original Message----- From: Gene Heskett [mailto:gene.heskett at verizon.net] Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 10:16 AM To: CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts Subject: Re: [Coco] New programs for new CoCo possibilities On Friday 26 December 2008, Chester Patterson wrote: >Speaking of being caught up in our everyday lives... Please welcome to the >world Chester William Patterson, born 5 December 2008. >And I definately plan to bring him up on a Coco, when the time is right! > Congratulations Chester. Now does this make you a daddy, a grandfather or ? -- Cheers, Gene "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Consultant, n.: An ordinary man a long way from home. From gene.heskett at verizon.net Sat Dec 27 11:36:11 2008 From: gene.heskett at verizon.net (Gene Heskett) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 11:36:11 -0500 Subject: [Coco] New programs for new CoCo possibilities In-Reply-To: <0D906DD343874CEF869039655E1870DA@chester> References: <0D906DD343874CEF869039655E1870DA@chester> Message-ID: <200812271136.11074.gene.heskett@verizon.net> On Saturday 27 December 2008, Chester Patterson wrote: >Grandpa was Chester >Dad is Chester (84) >I am Chester (49) >Now Chester4 (3 weeks) >And a happy bunch of Chets we are! >Yeah, I know, kinda late to be having kids. Came as a bit of a surprise! >Totally unplanned. And a blessing from heaven! >/Chet3 I hope the child is healthy. They truly are a blessing, and will keep you alert for many years, extending your own productive life as you subconsciously compete with them. Make no mistake, it does/will happen, and its good for both of you :) Again, congratulations. >-----Original Message----- >From: Gene Heskett [mailto:gene.heskett at verizon.net] >Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 10:16 AM >To: CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts >Subject: Re: [Coco] New programs for new CoCo possibilities > >On Friday 26 December 2008, Chester Patterson wrote: >>Speaking of being caught up in our everyday lives... Please welcome to the >>world Chester William Patterson, born 5 December 2008. >>And I definately plan to bring him up on a Coco, when the time is right! > >Congratulations Chester. Now does this make you a daddy, a grandfather or ? > >-- >Cheers, Gene >"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: > soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." >-Ed Howdershelt (Author) >Consultant, n.: > An ordinary man a long way from home. > > > > >-- >Coco mailing list >Coco at maltedmedia.com >http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco -- Cheers, Gene "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Some men love truth so much that they seem to be in continual fear lest she should catch a cold on overexposure. -- Samuel Butler From farna at att.net Sat Dec 27 15:27:08 2008 From: farna at att.net (Frank Swygert) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 15:27:08 -0500 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet Message-ID: <49568F9C.2000701@att.net> Roger (and all!), I'm impressed, but still find the idea of CoCoNet, and Drivewire, a bit ambiguous. Basically both allow a PC to be a disc server for the CoCo. Sort of like replacing the floppy drive with a PC. What I find ambiguous is the fact that the emulators do the same thing, only run on a PC also. While the idea is to make the PC a slave to the CoCo instead of the other way around, it just seems like a lot of trouble for nothing. I suppose it's good for sharing files between the two systems, or using the PC to download DSK files then install on the CoCo. I suppose those who have a CoCo and PC both set up at and in use at the same time will find it more useful though. The PC can easily serve the CoCo while still doing other things. I guess I'm getting stuck on the scenario where the CoCo is the main computer and you just set up a PC as a drive server. Now I can see it more as a hard drive solution. Package a hard drive in a stand-alone case with a microcontroller hard programmed to use CoCoNet. There are a few cheap single board computers with a serial port that would work nicely. If a mini OS/CoCoNet server could be written for one of those, or maybe better a PIC or something, then it would be a wonderful hard drive controller. If you could get a bare bones Linux driver going then a stripped down Linux would work nicely, maybe little more than a custom kernel burned into a ROM. Just some thoughts I've been having. I still like the idea of a single board x86 based computer with an emulator in ROM with a flash memory section for customizing, or a switch protected SD or USB drive (those would be easier). Using the DOS based emulator DOS could be stripped down and the thing could transparently boot into the emulator. That would be an "instant CoCo4". Enhancements could then be made to the emulator. That's the easiest solution to the CoCo4 "problem". Several of these would fit the bill - http://www.linuxdevices.com/articles/AT8498487406.html. Although the article is for Linux devices, some of them are PC compatible. I like this one: http://www.compulab.co.il/x270cm/html/x270-sb-datasheet.htm. I'm sure the "prices starting below $120" are for the basic model in quantity, not singles. A $300 "CoCo4" sans monitor and keyboard would be easily possible using a modified emulator and one of these. The only thing that would be missing is the cartridge port. Might be possible to emulate it through a PCI port though, with a card or header for connections. The cartridge port is the one thing that would be hard to deal with, but as long as there is some type of easy to connect I/O board I don't see that as a problem, even if the I/O board is a USB dongle. ----------------- Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 00:37:15 -0600 From: Roger Taylor Some updates CoCoNet is currently (while I type) reading a .php file from CoCo3.com once every SECOND in 115200 bps mode, and about 2.5 seconds in 57600 bps mode, which includes printing the readout to the WIDTH 80 screen. It's about 11 lines of text generated by the .php script. The complete turnaround is 1 second in 115200 bps mode. -- Frank Swygert Publisher, "American Motors Cars" Magazine (AMC) For all AMC enthusiasts http://farna.home.att.net/AMC.html (free download available!) From jet.pack at ymail.com Sat Dec 27 18:09:34 2008 From: jet.pack at ymail.com (John Eric) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 15:09:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Coco] New programs for new CoCo possibilities References: <55693FEB08A44441A37860454A99CE36@chester> Message-ID: <393321.71570.qm@web111214.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> congratulations! ________________________________ From: Chester Patterson To: CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts Sent: Friday, December 26, 2008 9:39:33 AM Subject: Re: [Coco] New programs for new CoCo possibilities Speaking of being caught up in our everyday lives... Please welcome to the world Chester William Patterson, born 5 December 2008. And I definately plan to bring him up on a Coco, when the time is right! /Chester -Costa Rica -----Original Message----- .... when everyone seems so caught up with their everyday lives ... -- Coco mailing list Coco at maltedmedia.com http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco From jet.pack at ymail.com Sat Dec 27 18:13:38 2008 From: jet.pack at ymail.com (John Eric) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 15:13:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Coco] The Dallas Quest References: <55693FEB08A44441A37860454A99CE36@chester> <393321.71570.qm@web111214.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <943362.52067.qm@web111204.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Does anyone know where I might obtain the Dallas Quest? I have the manual but seem to have lost my disk. Sigh. Thanks - John ________________________________ From mechacoco at gmail.com Sat Dec 27 18:48:57 2008 From: mechacoco at gmail.com (Darren A) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 16:48:57 -0700 Subject: [Coco] The Dallas Quest In-Reply-To: <943362.52067.qm@web111204.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <55693FEB08A44441A37860454A99CE36@chester> <393321.71570.qm@web111214.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <943362.52067.qm@web111204.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5d802cd0812271548l161b13d1q1cc0c8818d6a6a11@mail.gmail.com> On 12/27/08, John Eric wrote: > Does anyone know where I might obtain the Dallas Quest? I have the manual > but seem to have lost my disk. Sigh. > Thanks - John --- Try this link: Darren From skwirl42 at gmail.com Sat Dec 27 18:59:00 2008 From: skwirl42 at gmail.com (James Dessart) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 19:59:00 -0400 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet In-Reply-To: <49568F9C.2000701@att.net> References: <49568F9C.2000701@att.net> Message-ID: <4c56cbd30812271559k2ebdf1abk4e905fc0f375f2ba@mail.gmail.com> On 12/27/08, Frank Swygert wrote: > What I find ambiguous is ... that the emulators do the same thing, only run on a PC > also. While the idea is to make the PC a slave to the CoCo instead of the > other way around, it just seems like a lot of trouble for nothing. I suppose > it's good for sharing files between the two systems, or using the PC to > download DSK files then install on the CoCo. I suppose those who have a CoCo > and PC both set up at and in use at the same time will find it more useful > though. The PC can easily serve the CoCo while still doing other things. The idea is to avoid too much extra hardware, and yet still allow the PC to serve up files to the CoCo. Take for instance Nitros-9 development. If the entire system gets built on a PC, which is a whole lot quicker than doing it on the CoCo, then the PC can automatically serve up the disk image to the CoCo. Perhaps the CoCo has been set up with a Drivewire/CoCoNet ROM of some sort, and can boot directly from the serial port. In the case of CoCoNet, you could even have your CoCo boot directly from nightly Nitros-9 builds put up by someone on the internet, theoretically. As for an emulator, even a dedicated one, with CoCo "compatible" hardware, it still wouldn't be a real CoCo, and I don't think the enthusiasts of real CoCo systems would be interested. The people who are willing to use an emulated CoCo will just use a PC with an emulator. Not to shoot you down or anything, I'm just trying to explain why this is probably a preferable solution. -- James Dessart From jet.pack at ymail.com Sat Dec 27 19:00:37 2008 From: jet.pack at ymail.com (John Eric) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 16:00:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Coco] The Dallas Quest References: <55693FEB08A44441A37860454A99CE36@chester> <393321.71570.qm@web111214.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <943362.52067.qm@web111204.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <5d802cd0812271548l161b13d1q1cc0c8818d6a6a11@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <364925.24801.qm@web111201.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Thank You Sir! You Rock Out Loud. Is it possible to upload to that site? I have hundreds of original CoCo disks that I could turn into .dsk images and send there, if it's not illegal or anything. I mean, I don't suspect that there would be any complaints since you can't really buy this stuff anymore. Thanks Again - JE ________________________________ From: Darren A To: CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 5:48:57 PM Subject: Re: [Coco] The Dallas Quest On 12/27/08, John Eric wrote: > Does anyone know where I might obtain the Dallas Quest? I have the manual > but seem to have lost my disk. Sigh. > Thanks - John --- Try this link: Darren -- Coco mailing list Coco at maltedmedia.com http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco From jet.pack at ymail.com Sat Dec 27 19:07:35 2008 From: jet.pack at ymail.com (John Eric) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 16:07:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet References: <49568F9C.2000701@att.net> <4c56cbd30812271559k2ebdf1abk4e905fc0f375f2ba@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <884267.24765.qm@web111207.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I agree. Real Hardware beats emulation, at least in my opinion. I've just started to follow Gary's CoCo3FPGA. I think it would be neat if he did a new version similar to Dennis' MiniMig (amiga in an FPGA), which is to say, everything would be emulated, except the cpu, and a real 63C09e could be attached to it for cycle accurate performance and maybe a 5Mhz Overclock mode (the c09e seems to reliably run at 5Mhz). The soft CPU could also be included and switched on for the 15Mhz upwards modes. I haven't mentioned this to Gary, but maybe he'll see this and either shoot it down or perhaps consider it. I love the CoCo's and I use real and emulated systems for playing with disk images and real disks. -JE ________________________________ From: James Dessart To: CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 5:59:00 PM Subject: Re: [Coco] CoCoNet On 12/27/08, Frank Swygert wrote: > What I find ambiguous is ... that the emulators do the same thing, only run on a PC > also. While the idea is to make the PC a slave to the CoCo instead of the > other way around, it just seems like a lot of trouble for nothing. I suppose > it's good for sharing files between the two systems, or using the PC to > download DSK files then install on the CoCo. I suppose those who have a CoCo > and PC both set up at and in use at the same time will find it more useful > though. The PC can easily serve the CoCo while still doing other things. The idea is to avoid too much extra hardware, and yet still allow the PC to serve up files to the CoCo. Take for instance Nitros-9 development. If the entire system gets built on a PC, which is a whole lot quicker than doing it on the CoCo, then the PC can automatically serve up the disk image to the CoCo. Perhaps the CoCo has been set up with a Drivewire/CoCoNet ROM of some sort, and can boot directly from the serial port. In the case of CoCoNet, you could even have your CoCo boot directly from nightly Nitros-9 builds put up by someone on the internet, theoretically. As for an emulator, even a dedicated one, with CoCo "compatible" hardware, it still wouldn't be a real CoCo, and I don't think the enthusiasts of real CoCo systems would be interested. The people who are willing to use an emulated CoCo will just use a PC with an emulator. Not to shoot you down or anything, I'm just trying to explain why this is probably a preferable solution. -- James Dessart -- Coco mailing list Coco at maltedmedia.com http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco From mechacoco at gmail.com Sat Dec 27 19:34:33 2008 From: mechacoco at gmail.com (Darren A) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 17:34:33 -0700 Subject: [Coco] The Dallas Quest In-Reply-To: <364925.24801.qm@web111201.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <55693FEB08A44441A37860454A99CE36@chester> <393321.71570.qm@web111214.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <943362.52067.qm@web111204.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <5d802cd0812271548l161b13d1q1cc0c8818d6a6a11@mail.gmail.com> <364925.24801.qm@web111201.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5d802cd0812271634n1b07f898j474972958d9c4c2c@mail.gmail.com> On 12/27/08, John Eric wrote: > Thank You Sir! You Rock Out Loud. Is it possible to upload to that site? I > have hundreds of original CoCo disks that I could turn into .dsk images and > send there, if it's not illegal or anything. I mean, I don't suspect that > there would be any complaints since you can't really buy this stuff anymore. > Thanks Again - JE > -- The site is not mine. See this post for info about uploading: Darren From Torsten at Dittel.info Sat Dec 27 19:36:35 2008 From: Torsten at Dittel.info (Torsten Dittel) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 01:36:35 +0100 Subject: [Coco] New programs for new CoCo possibilities In-Reply-To: <55693FEB08A44441A37860454A99CE36@chester> References: <55693FEB08A44441A37860454A99CE36@chester> Message-ID: Un beb? chiquiTICO ;-) puede hacer cumplir los sue?os m?s grandes. Felicidades por el nacimiento de tu hijito. Saludos, Torsten From Torsten at Dittel.info Sat Dec 27 19:39:22 2008 From: Torsten at Dittel.info (Torsten Dittel) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 01:39:22 +0100 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet In-Reply-To: <884267.24765.qm@web111207.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <49568F9C.2000701@att.net> <4c56cbd30812271559k2ebdf1abk4e905fc0f375f2ba@mail.gmail.com> <884267.24765.qm@web111207.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: John Eric schrieb: > and a real 63C09e could be attached Oh, isn't that one made out of unobtanium? ;-) Torsten From jet.pack at ymail.com Sat Dec 27 19:47:18 2008 From: jet.pack at ymail.com (John Eric) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 16:47:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Coco] The Dallas Quest References: <55693FEB08A44441A37860454A99CE36@chester> <393321.71570.qm@web111214.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <943362.52067.qm@web111204.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <5d802cd0812271548l161b13d1q1cc0c8818d6a6a11@mail.gmail.com> <364925.24801.qm@web111201.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <5d802cd0812271634n1b07f898j474972958d9c4c2c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <31374.29838.qm@web111214.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Thank You. I just had a quick browse of the site and apparently, it has most of the stuff that I have, with a few exceptions. I never thought I'd be able to replace my Dallas Quest Disk - when I was a child my uncle Scott and his wife used to spend hours trying to solve it. I was given all their CoCo stuff - they're all WinVista these days, and I still prefer the classics. Sure, I have a modern PC, but the CoCo takes me back to when I was 2 or 3. ________________________________ From: Darren A To: CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 6:34:33 PM Subject: Re: [Coco] The Dallas Quest On 12/27/08, John Eric wrote: > Thank You Sir! You Rock Out Loud. Is it possible to upload to that site? I > have hundreds of original CoCo disks that I could turn into .dsk images and > send there, if it's not illegal or anything. I mean, I don't suspect that > there would be any complaints since you can't really buy this stuff anymore. > Thanks Again - JE > -- The site is not mine. See this post for info about uploading: Darren -- Coco mailing list Coco at maltedmedia.com http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco From mechacoco at gmail.com Sat Dec 27 19:58:46 2008 From: mechacoco at gmail.com (Darren A) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 17:58:46 -0700 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet In-Reply-To: References: <49568F9C.2000701@att.net> <4c56cbd30812271559k2ebdf1abk4e905fc0f375f2ba@mail.gmail.com> <884267.24765.qm@web111207.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5d802cd0812271658r53115acfic2c7dcc2bf6d3fed@mail.gmail.com> On 12/27/08, Torsten Dittel wrote: > John Eric schrieb: > >> and a real 63C09e could be attached > > Oh, isn't that one made out of unobtanium? > > ;-) Torsten > --- I think I still have two tubes of the 63C09EP remaining in my parts collection. I know Chris Lomont recently indicated in the CoCo3.com forum that he had several of them for sale. Darren From georgeramsower at gmail.com Sat Dec 27 20:04:27 2008 From: georgeramsower at gmail.com (George Ramsower) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 19:04:27 -0600 Subject: [Coco] Converting DSK files Message-ID: <001d01c96888$3be0d0c0$6401a8c0@OLDGEORGE> A couple of years ago, I tried the various things or maybe one... I don't remember.. from this PC W-XP SP2. I never could get a coco disk to work on a coco. I don't remember the details of what I was doing or how I did it. Is there a new, improved way of doing this today? I think I'd like to try some of the DSK stuff that is available now. George From Torsten at Dittel.info Sat Dec 27 20:06:07 2008 From: Torsten at Dittel.info (Torsten Dittel) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 02:06:07 +0100 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet In-Reply-To: <5d802cd0812271658r53115acfic2c7dcc2bf6d3fed@mail.gmail.com> References: <49568F9C.2000701@att.net> <4c56cbd30812271559k2ebdf1abk4e905fc0f375f2ba@mail.gmail.com> <884267.24765.qm@web111207.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <5d802cd0812271658r53115acfic2c7dcc2bf6d3fed@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Darren A schrieb: >> Oh, isn't that one made out of unobtanium? > I think I still have two tubes of the 63C09EP remaining in my parts > collection. I know Chris Lomont recently indicated in the CoCo3.com > forum that he had several of them for sale. Gosh, being tired, I was first reading "63E09". Like 1MHz 63B09, 2MHz 63C09, ..., 5MHz 63E09. Guess I have spare dozens of each Bs & Cs stored somewhere too. From jet.pack at ymail.com Sat Dec 27 20:06:35 2008 From: jet.pack at ymail.com (John Eric) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 17:06:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet References: <49568F9C.2000701@att.net> <4c56cbd30812271559k2ebdf1abk4e905fc0f375f2ba@mail.gmail.com> <884267.24765.qm@web111207.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <779660.86310.qm@web111202.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Not really - there are plenty still available from the orient. I have used many of the ''obsolete'' parts search engines and have found places in china and korea that still have thousands of both the C and B versions, in DIP and PLCC. Of course, there is a minimun $$$$ to purchase. I thought about using my tax refund this coming year to buy a bunch of them up. JE ________________________________ From: Torsten Dittel To: coco at maltedmedia.com Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 6:39:22 PM Subject: Re: [Coco] CoCoNet John Eric schrieb: > and a real 63C09e could be attached Oh, isn't that one made out of unobtanium? ;-) Torsten -- Coco mailing list Coco at maltedmedia.com http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco From operator at coco3.com Sat Dec 27 20:08:23 2008 From: operator at coco3.com (Roger Taylor) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 19:08:23 -0600 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet In-Reply-To: <49568F9C.2000701@att.net> References: <49568F9C.2000701@att.net> Message-ID: <20081228010848.1B41020A13@qs281.pair.com> At 02:27 PM 12/27/2008, you wrote: >Roger (and all!), I'm impressed, but still find the idea of CoCoNet, >and Drivewire, a bit ambiguous. Basically both allow a PC to be a >disc server for the CoCo. Sort of like replacing the floppy drive >with a PC. What I find ambiguous is the fact that the emulators do >the same thing, only run on a PC also. While the idea is to make the >PC a slave to the CoCo instead of the other way around, it just >seems like a lot of trouble for nothing. CoCoNet is a drop-in ROM solution using a floppy controller (with a 28-pin socket), or an EPROM Pak. If you don't have a means to do that, a 64k CoCo 2 or any CoCo 3 can just LOADM the DOS patch. No EXEC is required. Either way, you can immediately type something like DRIVE 0,"HTTP://WWW.COCO3.COM/GAMES.DSK", then DIR, and voila... or mount a disk on the PC, all over a bitbanger cable. I worked hard to make it Not a lot of trouble. For the LOADM version, a boot disk would have a BOOT.BAS program that does the LOADM command for you, or perhaps *.BAS to make it even quicker to start... again, for those without a way to use the ROM. On top of that, a DB-9 to bluetooth wireless device can be attached to the CoCo, and a cheap bluetooth USB dongle on the PC (to add a wireless COM port), and you've got a wireless CoCo with internet and virtual disk capabilities. The internet support will grow but for now you can fetch web files, and by appending parameters to the request URL, a LOT can be done to give the CoCo the power to use the internet. How about a multiplayer CoCo game, anyone? If each game posts it's status to a web server and the readback file contains the other player's statuses, there you go. > I suppose it's good for sharing files between the two systems, or > using the PC to download DSK files then install on the CoCo. I > suppose those who have a CoCo and PC both set up at and in use at > the same time will find it more useful though. The PC can easily > serve the CoCo while still doing other things. I guess I'm getting > stuck on the scenario where the CoCo is the main computer and you > just set up a PC as a drive server. Most PC's have a mess of wires already strung around to devices. Another connection to the COM port won't hurt anything. :) Think about it, a ROM and a bitbanger cable and it's ready. Actually, the server app has to be running on the PC, but you can probably put it in the autostart list so Windows will launch it automatically. Disk mounting is done from the CoCo or the PC. You don't have to move over to the PC to mount virtual disks unless you want to. >Now I can see it more as a hard drive solution. Package a hard drive >in a stand-alone case with a microcontroller hard programmed to use >CoCoNet. There are a few cheap single board computers with a serial >port that would work nicely. If a mini OS/CoCoNet server could be >written for one of those, or maybe better a PIC or something, then >it would be a wonderful hard drive controller. If you could get a >bare bones Linux driver going then a stripped down Linux would work >nicely, maybe little more than a custom kernel burned into a ROM. A server like that could be made and used. The CoCo wouldn't know any difference. The CoCo does several things: requests virtual disks to be mounted per drive, by PC pathname or web URL. The SAVEW command fetches web files and saves them to a mounted virtual disk. Even if the server can't do a SAVEW, at least the virtual drive solution is there. I just enhanced the DRIVE command even more. Type DRIVE alone and you get a listing of each drive with it's state (OFF - Virtual) or (ON - Hardware). Type DRIVE ON or DRIVE OFF to switch the states. A listing is not shown if the DRIVE command is invoked from within a BASIC program. >Just some thoughts I've been having. I still like the idea of a >single board x86 based computer with an emulator in ROM with a flash >memory section for customizing, or a switch protected SD or USB >drive (those would be easier). Using the DOS based emulator DOS >could be stripped down and the thing could transparently boot into >the emulator. That would be an "instant CoCo4". Enhancements could >then be made to the emulator. That's the easiest solution to the >CoCo4 "problem". Several of these would fit the bill - >http://www.linuxdevices.com/articles/AT8498487406.html. Although the >article is for Linux devices, some of them are PC compatible. I like >this one: >http://www.compulab.co.il/x270cm/html/x270-sb-datasheet.htm. I'm >sure the "prices starting below $120" are for the basic model in >quantity, not singles. A $300 "CoCo4" sans monitor and keyboard >would be easily possible using a modified emulator and one of these. >The only thing that would be missing is the cartridge port. Migh >t be possible to emulate it through a PCI port though, with a card >or header for connections. The cartridge port is the one thing that >would be hard to deal with, but as long as there is some type of >easy to connect I/O board I don't see that as a problem, even if the >I/O board is a USB dongle. >Coco at maltedmedia.com >http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco -- Roger Taylor http://www.wordofthedayonline.com From mechacoco at gmail.com Sat Dec 27 20:12:38 2008 From: mechacoco at gmail.com (Darren A) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 18:12:38 -0700 Subject: [Coco] Converting DSK files In-Reply-To: <001d01c96888$3be0d0c0$6401a8c0@OLDGEORGE> References: <001d01c96888$3be0d0c0$6401a8c0@OLDGEORGE> Message-ID: <5d802cd0812271712r57c88135g1797e018b6ebbd56@mail.gmail.com> On 12/27/08, George Ramsower wrote: > A couple of years ago, I tried the various things or maybe one... I don't > remember.. from this PC W-XP SP2. I never could get a coco disk to work on a > coco. > > I don't remember the details of what I was doing or how I did it. > > Is there a new, improved way of doing this today? I think I'd like to try > some of the DSK stuff that is available now. > > George -- If your intention is to read/write CoCo disks on a Win XP machine with a 360K floppy drive (or a 3.5 inch drive using DD media) then you can try my CoCo Disk utility: It also requires that you install Simon Owen's fdrawcmd floppy driver: This same driver allows you to access real floppy disks using the VCC emulator. Darren From jet.pack at ymail.com Sat Dec 27 20:13:00 2008 From: jet.pack at ymail.com (John Eric) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 17:13:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Coco] Converting DSK files References: <001d01c96888$3be0d0c0$6401a8c0@OLDGEORGE> Message-ID: <809000.82283.qm@web111209.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I have been using the OmniFlop utility and have yet to have a disk my coco couldn't read. You have to select the double step option if your PC has a 1.2m floppy (or the obscure 720k 5.25 floppy), and single step if your pc has the 360k 5.25 floppy. If you are using a 1.2m floppy in the pc and a disk starts giving you trouble, a degausser to completely erase the thing usually fixes it to where an omniflop write can make it work on the coco again (this has to do with track width being half that of a 360k floppy and if the coco writes to the disk and then omniflop tries to write to it, it may then not be coco readable, so degauss and do again and it should work - i'm not too good at explaining this.. sorry. Perhaps others can clarify what I am trying to say) JE ________________________________ From: George Ramsower To: coco at maltedmedia.com Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:04:27 PM Subject: [Coco] Converting DSK files A couple of years ago, I tried the various things or maybe one... I don't remember.. from this PC W-XP SP2. I never could get a coco disk to work on a coco. I don't remember the details of what I was doing or how I did it. Is there a new, improved way of doing this today? I think I'd like to try some of the DSK stuff that is available now. George -- Coco mailing list Coco at maltedmedia.com http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco From jet.pack at ymail.com Sat Dec 27 20:15:41 2008 From: jet.pack at ymail.com (John Eric) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 17:15:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet References: <49568F9C.2000701@att.net> <20081228010848.1B41020A13@qs281.pair.com> Message-ID: <856794.23676.qm@web111204.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Roger, I have to say that this is awesome! Excellent work _ I have a DISTO MC-1 with a 28-pin socket, so this is great! ________________________________ From: Roger Taylor To: CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:08:23 PM Subject: Re: [Coco] CoCoNet At 02:27 PM 12/27/2008, you wrote: > Roger (and all!), I'm impressed, but still find the idea of CoCoNet, and Drivewire, a bit ambiguous. Basically both allow a PC to be a disc server for the CoCo. Sort of like replacing the floppy drive with a PC. What I find ambiguous is the fact that the emulators do the same thing, only run on a PC also. While the idea is to make the PC a slave to the CoCo instead of the other way around, it just seems like a lot of trouble for nothing. CoCoNet is a drop-in ROM solution using a floppy controller (with a 28-pin socket), or an EPROM Pak. If you don't have a means to do that, a 64k CoCo 2 or any CoCo 3 can just LOADM the DOS patch. No EXEC is required. Either way, you can immediately type something like DRIVE 0,"HTTP://WWW.COCO3.COM/GAMES.DSK", then DIR, and voila... or mount a disk on the PC, all over a bitbanger cable. I worked hard to make it Not a lot of trouble. For the LOADM version, a boot disk would have a BOOT.BAS program that does the LOADM command for you, or perhaps *.BAS to make it even quicker to start... again, for those without a way to use the ROM. On top of that, a DB-9 to bluetooth wireless device can be attached to the CoCo, and a cheap bluetooth USB dongle on the PC (to add a wireless COM port), and you've got a wireless CoCo with internet and virtual disk capabilities. The internet support will grow but for now you can fetch web files, and by appending parameters to the request URL, a LOT can be done to give the CoCo the power to use the internet. How about a multiplayer CoCo game, anyone? If each game posts it's status to a web server and the readback file contains the other player's statuses, there you go. > I suppose it's good for sharing files between the two systems, or using the PC to download DSK files then install on the CoCo. I suppose those who have a CoCo and PC both set up at and in use at the same time will find it more useful though. The PC can easily serve the CoCo while still doing other things. I guess I'm getting stuck on the scenario where the CoCo is the main computer and you just set up a PC as a drive server. Most PC's have a mess of wires already strung around to devices. Another connection to the COM port won't hurt anything. :) Think about it, a ROM and a bitbanger cable and it's ready. Actually, the server app has to be running on the PC, but you can probably put it in the autostart list so Windows will launch it automatically. Disk mounting is done from the CoCo or the PC. You don't have to move over to the PC to mount virtual disks unless you want to. > Now I can see it more as a hard drive solution. Package a hard drive in a stand-alone case with a microcontroller hard programmed to use CoCoNet. There are a few cheap single board computers with a serial port that would work nicely. If a mini OS/CoCoNet server could be written for one of those, or maybe better a PIC or something, then it would be a wonderful hard drive controller. If you could get a bare bones Linux driver going then a stripped down Linux would work nicely, maybe little more than a custom kernel burned into a ROM. A server like that could be made and used. The CoCo wouldn't know any difference. The CoCo does several things: requests virtual disks to be mounted per drive, by PC pathname or web URL. The SAVEW command fetches web files and saves them to a mounted virtual disk. Even if the server can't do a SAVEW, at least the virtual drive solution is there. I just enhanced the DRIVE command even more. Type DRIVE alone and you get a listing of each drive with it's state (OFF - Virtual) or (ON - Hardware). Type DRIVE ON or DRIVE OFF to switch the states. A listing is not shown if the DRIVE command is invoked from within a BASIC program. > Just some thoughts I've been having. I still like the idea of a single board x86 based computer with an emulator in ROM with a flash memory section for customizing, or a switch protected SD or USB drive (those would be easier). Using the DOS based emulator DOS could be stripped down and the thing could transparently boot into the emulator. That would be an "instant CoCo4". Enhancements could then be made to the emulator. That's the easiest solution to the CoCo4 "problem". Several of these would fit the bill - http://www.linuxdevices.com/articles/AT8498487406.html. Although the article is for Linux devices, some of them are PC compatible. I like this one: http://www.compulab.co.il/x270cm/html/x270-sb-datasheet.htm. I'm sure the "prices starting below $120" are for the basic model in quantity, not singles. A $300 "CoCo4" sans monitor and keyboard would be easily possible using a modified emulator and one of these. The only thing that would be missing is the cartridge port. Migh > t be possible to emulate it through a PCI port though, with a card or header for connections. The cartridge port is the one thing that would be hard to deal with, but as long as there is some type of easy to connect I/O board I don't see that as a problem, even if the I/O board is a USB dongle. > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco -- Roger Taylor http://www.wordofthedayonline.com -- Coco mailing list Coco at maltedmedia.com http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco From operator at coco3.com Sat Dec 27 20:17:51 2008 From: operator at coco3.com (Roger Taylor) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 19:17:51 -0600 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet In-Reply-To: <4c56cbd30812271559k2ebdf1abk4e905fc0f375f2ba@mail.gmail.co m> References: <49568F9C.2000701@att.net> <4c56cbd30812271559k2ebdf1abk4e905fc0f375f2ba@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081228011816.1E01220A13@qs281.pair.com> At 05:59 PM 12/27/2008, you wrote: >On 12/27/08, Frank Swygert wrote: > > > What I find ambiguous is ... that the emulators do the same > thing, only run on a PC > > also. While the idea is to make the PC a slave to the CoCo instead of the > > other way around, it just seems like a lot of trouble for > nothing. I suppose > > it's good for sharing files between the two systems, or using the PC to > > download DSK files then install on the CoCo. I suppose those who > have a CoCo > > and PC both set up at and in use at the same time will find it more useful > > though. The PC can easily serve the CoCo while still doing other things. > >The idea is to avoid too much extra hardware, and yet still allow the >PC to serve up files to the CoCo. Take for instance Nitros-9 >development. If the entire system gets built on a PC, which is a whole >lot quicker than doing it on the CoCo, then the PC can automatically >serve up the disk image to the CoCo. Perhaps the CoCo has been set up >with a Drivewire/CoCoNet ROM of some sort, and can boot directly from >the serial port. > >In the case of CoCoNet, you could even have your CoCo boot directly >from nightly Nitros-9 builds put up by someone on the internet, >theoretically. I'm going to put a mode in the PC/server driver that causes CoCoNet to automatically issue the DOS command on power up. You'd be able to toggle the switch with a simple checkbox. However, no OS-9 or NitrOS-9 drivers have been written yet. >As for an emulator, even a dedicated one, with CoCo "compatible" >hardware, it still wouldn't be a real CoCo, and I don't think the >enthusiasts of real CoCo systems would be interested. The people who >are willing to use an emulated CoCo will just use a PC with an >emulator. In my experience, none of the emulators are 100% compatible with everything out there. You run into those snags then say, "I wish I hadn't sold my CoCo"... a CoCo that now would only need a bitbanger cable strung to the PC. Btw, I plan to also add PRINT #-2 support so the PC prints what the CoCo prints, but don't expect too many CoCo-compatible printers to be emulated that quickly. Stuff like that would probably have to be created by third parties. I'd try to make it easy by using translation tables and so forth so a .txt file could probably be created on the PC that teaches the server about another "CoCo printer". My job would be to let the CoCo actually send the PRINT #-2 data to the server at 57600 bps or 115200 bps. The server app would select the default PC printer. -- Roger Taylor http://www.wordofthedayonline.com From jet.pack at ymail.com Sat Dec 27 20:22:54 2008 From: jet.pack at ymail.com (John Eric) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 17:22:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet References: <49568F9C.2000701@att.net> <4c56cbd30812271559k2ebdf1abk4e905fc0f375f2ba@mail.gmail.com> <20081228011816.1E01220A13@qs281.pair.com> Message-ID: <836039.33111.qm@web111204.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Roger, regarding the following: I had been considering creating a PC program that monitored the com1 or com2 port and acted like a DMP-105. My intention was to have the pc interpret the dmp-105 codes sent from the CoCo and create a BMP or PDF of the page exactly as it would have been printed on the real DMP-105. It could then be printed from the PC to a inkjet or laser printer. Of course, I soon realized that I do not posses the technical know-how to perform such a feat, so maybe some others out there perhaps can do such a thing - maybe even you :) JE ________________________________ Btw, I plan to also add PRINT #-2 support so the PC prints what the CoCo prints, but don't expect too many CoCo-compatible printers to be emulated that quickly. Stuff like that would probably have to be created by third parties. I'd try to make it easy by using translation tables and so forth so a .txt file could probably be created on the PC that teaches the server about another "CoCo printer". My job would be to let the CoCo actually send the PRINT #-2 data to the server at 57600 bps or 115200 bps. The server app would select the default PC printer. -- Roger Taylor From vchester at setec-cr.com Sat Dec 27 20:23:00 2008 From: vchester at setec-cr.com (Chester Patterson) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 19:23:00 -0600 Subject: [Coco] New programs for new CoCo possibilities In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ?Muchas gracias! Asi que sabes acerca de nosotros los TICOS?!? -----Original Message----- From: Torsten Dittel [mailto:Torsten at Dittel.info] Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 6:37 PM To: coco at maltedmedia.com Subject: Re: [Coco] New programs for new CoCo possibilities Un beb? chiquiTICO ;-) puede hacer cumplir los sue?os m?s grandes. Felicidades por el nacimiento de tu hijito. Saludos, Torsten From jdaggett at gate.net Sat Dec 27 20:51:56 2008 From: jdaggett at gate.net (jdaggett at gate.net) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 20:51:56 -0500 Subject: [Coco] 256K RAM chips In-Reply-To: <20081225050649.EF62220A14@qs281.pair.com> References: , <4952F4E4.9070504@aurigae.demon.co.uk>, <20081225050649.EF62220A14@qs281.pair.com> Message-ID: <4956956C.9986.13D18C@jdaggett.gate.net> On 24 Dec 2008 at 23:06, Roger Taylor wrote: > So you're saying the CoCo could use these chips as-is plus they > retain their memory when the power is off? No. It ust means that you do not have to supply refresh (row) addresses every 16mS. To work on the Coco1/2 you need toset the appropriate SAM bits and then demultiplex the Z-Buss to get the full address. The GIME chip and the SAM chip outputs the memory address in the form of row and column through the Z-Buss. The DRAM chips demux the address to gain the actual memory location. james From jdaggett at gate.net Sat Dec 27 20:54:31 2008 From: jdaggett at gate.net (jdaggett at gate.net) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 20:54:31 -0500 Subject: [Coco] 256K RAM chips In-Reply-To: <4952F29A.3080900@gmail.com> References: , <4952F29A.3080900@gmail.com> Message-ID: <49569607.7330.163194@jdaggett.gate.net> On 24 Dec 2008 at 21:40, N8WQ wrote: > Can you guys tell me if I might be able to use these memory chips in a > Color Computer 3 project? Any ideas? > > http://exwn8jef.googlepages.com/cocoprojects > > Alan Jones Not without some means of demultiplexing the memory address from the Z-Buss. To achieve the 20 bit address you will need other logic and use the RAS/CAS signals to convert the 10 bit multiplexed address to a 20 bit address to use SRAMs. james From jdaggett at gate.net Sat Dec 27 20:58:26 2008 From: jdaggett at gate.net (jdaggett at gate.net) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 20:58:26 -0500 Subject: [Coco] 256K RAM chips In-Reply-To: <49569607.7330.163194@jdaggett.gate.net> References: , <4952F29A.3080900@gmail.com>, <49569607.7330.163194@jdaggett.gate.net> Message-ID: <495696F2.7553.19C615@jdaggett.gate.net> On 27 Dec 2008 at 20:54, jdaggett at gate.net wrote: > > Can you guys tell me if I might be able to use these memory chips in > > a Color Computer 3 project? Any ideas? > > > > http://exwn8jef.googlepages.com/cocoprojects > > > > Alan Jones > > > Not without some means of demultiplexing the memory address from the > Z-Buss. To achieve the 20 bit address you will need other logic and > use the RAS/CAS signals to convert the 10 bit multiplexed address to a > 20 bit address to use SRAMs. > > james Correction and addition The stock GIME chip only outputs 18 bits of address. Also the GIME sees the stock 512K as 256Kx16 configuration. Therefore you will have to put your SRAMs into a 256Kx16 or two banks of 256Kx8. james From operator at coco3.com Sat Dec 27 21:00:50 2008 From: operator at coco3.com (Roger Taylor) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 20:00:50 -0600 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet In-Reply-To: <856794.23676.qm@web111204.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <49568F9C.2000701@att.net> <20081228010848.1B41020A13@qs281.pair.com> <856794.23676.qm@web111204.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20081228020115.2A7E220A14@qs281.pair.com> At 07:15 PM 12/27/2008, you wrote: >Roger, I have to say that this is awesome! Excellent work _ I have a >DISTO MC-1 with a 28-pin socket, so this is great! Yep, you can pop the CoCoNet ROM in, start the PC server, turn on the CoCo, and it's ready. The CoCo won't know the difference. None of the Disk BASIC commands have been crippled, and only about 10 bytes of low system RAM are used by the system, which were previously unused by any part of BASIC. I just burned version .09 and the CoCo 3 starts right up as usual. I typed DRIVE 1,"D01" then DIR and I see the listing of "d01.dsk" which is stored in the CoCoNet disk folder at coco3.com. Any disk pathname not including a complete path will assume a coco3.com-stored virtual disk from the CoCoNet folder. Thousands of disks can be at your fingertips from the second you power up, using only shortcut names like "new", "p3", "jeweled", etc. Just for an example, you could easily start up every day with something like DRIVE 0,"new" and instantly have access to floppy disk containing new stuff I've written for the CoCo. That's just off the top of my head. new.dsk gets downloaded quickly to a local copy on the PC, so you can even modify it as usual or back it up to a real disk, etc. I just made the funamentals work. The limits are up to the CoCo user's imagination. Issues: some web servers require case-sensitive URLs. Sometimes the root URL will work in all caps, but the files have to be case-correct. So you'll usually have to use a URL like "HTTP://WWW.COCO3.COM/coconet/somedisk.dsk", or just type it all in lowercase. If the files are stored on the server in all caps, you'd have to use all caps from the CoCo. Again, some web servers will work around this. -- Roger Taylor http://www.wordofthedayonline.com From jet.pack at ymail.com Sat Dec 27 21:01:36 2008 From: jet.pack at ymail.com (John Eric) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 18:01:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Coco] 256K RAM chips References: , <4952F29A.3080900@gmail.com> <49569607.7330.163194@jdaggett.gate.net> Message-ID: <77801.98754.qm@web111211.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Those UM61-256K-15 are in fact 256Kbit, 32Kx8 Static CACHE RAM chips. I several tubes of those. You might could use them to make a battery backed RAM Cartridge (32K) ??? JE ________________________________ From: "jdaggett at gate.net" To: CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:54:31 PM Subject: Re: [Coco] 256K RAM chips On 24 Dec 2008 at 21:40, N8WQ wrote: > Can you guys tell me if I might be able to use these memory chips in a > Color Computer 3 project? Any ideas? > > http://exwn8jef.googlepages.com/cocoprojects > > Alan Jones Not without some means of demultiplexing the memory address from the Z-Buss. To achieve the 20 bit address you will need other logic and use the RAS/CAS signals to convert the 10 bit multiplexed address to a 20 bit address to use SRAMs. james -- Coco mailing list Coco at maltedmedia.com http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco From operator at coco3.com Sat Dec 27 21:13:11 2008 From: operator at coco3.com (Roger Taylor) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 20:13:11 -0600 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet In-Reply-To: <836039.33111.qm@web111204.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <49568F9C.2000701@att.net> <4c56cbd30812271559k2ebdf1abk4e905fc0f375f2ba@mail.gmail.com> <20081228011816.1E01220A13@qs281.pair.com> <836039.33111.qm@web111204.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20081228021336.65C4420A13@qs281.pair.com> At 07:22 PM 12/27/2008, you wrote: >Roger, regarding the following: I had been considering creating a PC >program that monitored the com1 or com2 port and acted like a >DMP-105. My intention was to have the pc interpret the dmp-105 codes >sent from the CoCo and create a BMP or PDF of the page exactly as it >would have been printed on the real DMP-105. It could then be >printed from the PC to a inkjet or laser printer. Of course, I soon >realized that I do not posses the technical know-how to perform such >a feat, so maybe some others out there perhaps can do such a thing - >maybe even you :) JE I plan to add the PRINT #-2 support so the PC side could do something with that data, but I haven't looked into how I'd handle it completely. The PC wouldn't know when the CoCo is through printing, so a file of the print data would probably have to written in chunks by opening, writing, closing, so that another app could access the file and do whatever with it. I do know how to create BMP images of printer text which are dumped to the PC printer. This is how Rainbow IDE prints out files. Some kind of CoCo printer emulator would have to be integrated into such a program which would draw to the bitmap image for each printable page. A series of BMP images would represent the printer pages. It sounds like a very complex project considering how printer margins and page lengths and sizes are dealt with on each side. -- Roger Taylor http://www.wordofthedayonline.com From jet.pack at ymail.com Sat Dec 27 21:22:27 2008 From: jet.pack at ymail.com (John Eric) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 18:22:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Coco] 256K RAM chips References: , <4952F29A.3080900@gmail.com>, <49569607.7330.163194@jdaggett.gate.net> <495696F2.7553.19C615@jdaggett.gate.net> Message-ID: <365014.69873.qm@web111204.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Demultiplexing the z-bus shouldn't be too much of a daunting task. First, the addresses are multiplexed into two groups of 9 and 9 (row and column). Row is presented first, and is indicated bt RAS* active and absence of CAS*. So use a latch that latches when RAS*=0/CAS*=1 to get first half of address. Use a second latch, which has been made ready by previous latch, or whatever, but have it latch when RAS* is STILL low from previous, but then CAS* goes low. which gives second half of address. Also note: during a write cycle. the data AND WE* are active prior to CAS*. Shouldn't be too difficult, but you should have the CoCo 3 timing diagrams handy - it'll go a lot easier that way :) JE ________________________________ From: "jdaggett at gate.net" To: CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:58:26 PM Subject: Re: [Coco] 256K RAM chips On 27 Dec 2008 at 20:54, jdaggett at gate.net wrote: > > Can you guys tell me if I might be able to use these memory chips in > > a Color Computer 3 project? Any ideas? > > > > http://exwn8jef.googlepages.com/cocoprojects > > > > Alan Jones > > > Not without some means of demultiplexing the memory address from the > Z-Buss. To achieve the 20 bit address you will need other logic and > use the RAS/CAS signals to convert the 10 bit multiplexed address to a > 20 bit address to use SRAMs. > > james Correction and addition The stock GIME chip only outputs 18 bits of address. Also the GIME sees the stock 512K as 256Kx16 configuration. Therefore you will have to put your SRAMs into a 256Kx16 or two banks of 256Kx8. james -- Coco mailing list Coco at maltedmedia.com http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco From jet.pack at ymail.com Sat Dec 27 21:26:30 2008 From: jet.pack at ymail.com (John Eric) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 18:26:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet References: <49568F9C.2000701@att.net> <4c56cbd30812271559k2ebdf1abk4e905fc0f375f2ba@mail.gmail.com> <20081228011816.1E01220A13@qs281.pair.com> <836039.33111.qm@web111204.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <20081228021336.65C4420A13@qs281.pair.com> Message-ID: <289572.27071.qm@web111209.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Which is exactly why I realized I wouldn't be able to do it myself, but it sure would be neat. The dmp-105 is supported by almost all CoCo programs, so I thought it would be a good one to emulate. It's sad that windows made printers ''dumb'' - the first inkjets that my uncle got back in the 90's would work with the coco, but later on, they starting depending upon windows and the pc's cpu to handle the nitty gritty and so could no longer be attached to the good old coco... ________________________________ From: Roger Taylor To: CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 8:13:11 PM Subject: Re: [Coco] CoCoNet At 07:22 PM 12/27/2008, you wrote: > Roger, regarding the following: I had been considering creating a PC program that monitored the com1 or com2 port and acted like a DMP-105. My intention was to have the pc interpret the dmp-105 codes sent from the CoCo and create a BMP or PDF of the page exactly as it would have been printed on the real DMP-105. It could then be printed from the PC to a inkjet or laser printer. Of course, I soon realized that I do not posses the technical know-how to perform such a feat, so maybe some others out there perhaps can do such a thing - maybe even you :) JE I plan to add the PRINT #-2 support so the PC side could do something with that data, but I haven't looked into how I'd handle it completely. The PC wouldn't know when the CoCo is through printing, so a file of the print data would probably have to written in chunks by opening, writing, closing, so that another app could access the file and do whatever with it. I do know how to create BMP images of printer text which are dumped to the PC printer. This is how Rainbow IDE prints out files. Some kind of CoCo printer emulator would have to be integrated into such a program which would draw to the bitmap image for each printable page. A series of BMP images would represent the printer pages. It sounds like a very complex project considering how printer margins and page lengths and sizes are dealt with on each side. -- Roger Taylor http://www.wordofthedayonline.com -- Coco mailing list Coco at maltedmedia.com http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco From jet.pack at ymail.com Sat Dec 27 21:32:32 2008 From: jet.pack at ymail.com (John Eric) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 18:32:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Coco] 256K RAM chips References: , <4952F29A.3080900@gmail.com>, <49569607.7330.163194@jdaggett.gate.net> <495696F2.7553.19C615@jdaggett.gate.net> <365014.69873.qm@web111204.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <257150.32497.qm@web111206.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> These cache RAMs have a standard pinout, the 32Kx8 (256Kbit), which is what the UMC chips that you have, are the same pinout as these: http://docs.bgmicro.com/pdf/ram1004.pdf ________________________________ From: John Eric To: CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 8:22:27 PM Subject: Re: [Coco] 256K RAM chips Demultiplexing the z-bus shouldn't be too much of a daunting task. First, the addresses are multiplexed into two groups of 9 and 9 (row and column). Row is presented first, and is indicated bt RAS* active and absence of CAS*. So use a latch that latches when RAS*=0/CAS*=1 to get first half of address. Use a second latch, which has been made ready by previous latch, or whatever, but have it latch when RAS* is STILL low from previous, but then CAS* goes low. which gives second half of address. Also note: during a write cycle. the data AND WE* are active prior to CAS*. Shouldn't be too difficult, but you should have the CoCo 3 timing diagrams handy - it'll go a lot easier that way :) JE ________________________________ From: "jdaggett at gate.net" To: CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:58:26 PM Subject: Re: [Coco] 256K RAM chips On 27 Dec 2008 at 20:54, jdaggett at gate.net wrote: > > Can you guys tell me if I might be able to use these memory chips in > > a Color Computer 3 project? Any ideas? > > > > http://exwn8jef.googlepages.com/cocoprojects > > > > Alan Jones > > > Not without some means of demultiplexing the memory address from the > Z-Buss. To achieve the 20 bit address you will need other logic and > use the RAS/CAS signals to convert the 10 bit multiplexed address to a > 20 bit address to use SRAMs. > > james Correction and addition The stock GIME chip only outputs 18 bits of address. Also the GIME sees the stock 512K as 256Kx16 configuration. Therefore you will have to put your SRAMs into a 256Kx16 or two banks of 256Kx8. james -- Coco mailing list Coco at maltedmedia.com http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco -- Coco mailing list Coco at maltedmedia.com http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco From georgeramsower at gmail.com Sat Dec 27 21:50:02 2008 From: georgeramsower at gmail.com (George Ramsower) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 20:50:02 -0600 Subject: [Coco] Converting DSK files References: <001d01c96888$3be0d0c0$6401a8c0@OLDGEORGE> <5d802cd0812271712r57c88135g1797e018b6ebbd56@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <003801c96896$fb94dcf0$6401a8c0@OLDGEORGE> From: "Darren A" > On 12/27/08, George Ramsower wrote: >> A couple of years ago, I tried the various things or maybe one... I >> don't >> remember.. from this PC W-XP SP2. I never could get a coco disk to work >> on a >> coco. >> >> I don't remember the details of what I was doing or how I did it. >> >> Is there a new, improved way of doing this today? I think I'd like to >> try >> some of the DSK stuff that is available now. >> >> George > > -- > > If your intention is to read/write CoCo disks on a Win XP machine with > a 360K floppy drive (or a 3.5 inch drive using DD media) then you can > try my CoCo Disk utility: > > > It also requires that you install Simon Owen's fdrawcmd floppy driver: > > > This same driver allows you to access real floppy disks using the VCC > emulator. > > Darren > That was WAY too easy. I had Koronis Rift on my PC and simply wrote it to a preformatted disk(in the wrong format) and it still booted on my coco and ran. I also have it on an original floppy but, I had to see if this would work. I had that floppy formatted as 80DD. I understand the tracks are the same and the info transferred will only be placed on the appropriate tracks so this figures. I only use 3.5 720K floppies. I suppose next I will need to make a DSK image from a real coco floppy. Oh, what fun! I think Gene Heskett will be a recipient of the currrent floppy I''m using in my Coco CNC project. This was so easy it should be illegal. Okay, now I have to dig around and find a couple of joysticks for my cocos. I have 'em, just don't know where they are. I even have a "Deluxe" joystick... somewhere. I do have a bunch of games but, I've played them 'till I'm tired of them. It's time to check out the "undiscovered" stuff out there and begin discovering Nitros9. I haven't had good luck with that on my one system that uses a hard drive but, that's another issue. George From ed.orbea at gmail.com Sat Dec 27 21:59:29 2008 From: ed.orbea at gmail.com (Ed Orbea) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 18:59:29 -0800 Subject: [Coco] VCC 1.40 or "other mechanism" question Message-ID: <4956EB91.4090000@gmail.com> I have a BASIC program (saved as ascii text on my windows system) that I want to run on my CoCo3 (real or emulated). I have VCC 1.4 loaded on a USB drive (so I can play CoCo games anywhere), as well as a real CoCo3 (Disto controller, 3.5 and 5.25 floppy drives, MPI, 512 memory upgrade) I am also a registered user of Drivewire and Roger Taylor's excellent Rainbow IDE. Obviously the easiest way would be to copy & paste the BASIC program from Windows Notepad into VCC, but as you all know, Windows shortcuts don't work in VCC, so what process do the members of this list recommend? Would it be best to do "everything" in Rainbow IDE (even to making a DSK file with the BASIC program on it) Or to use an RS-DOS editor to "copy & paste" Or to use Wimgtool.exe to paste the ascii file onto a DSK Or........... Thanks, and since I have a Disto SCII, I am looking forward to obtaining a CoCoNet eprom (more stuff to play with ) Ed From johnchasteen.2 at juno.com Sat Dec 27 22:00:12 2008 From: johnchasteen.2 at juno.com (John T Chasteen) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 22:00:12 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Coco Dial-up BBS Message-ID: <20081227.220012.2308.4.Johnchasteen.2@juno.com> Happy New Year to all my Coco Friends in the US, Great Britain, Australis Canada Costa Rica... If I missed a country please forgive me and let me know where are located. What a great 80th winter on this earth and I still enjoy my coco3s here in Florida and Illinois... near the Fest in the Spring. Now to my question: If we had one BBS in the USA or Canada. Many of us have unlimited calling privilege for a low additional cost. We have real good experts that could set up a "subscription" BBS which would pay for the telephone line. I still don't have a live wire setup working. Please let me know how many would subscribe to such a service? John C ____________________________________________________________ Click here for free information on how to reduce your debt by filing for bankruptcy. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw22U6q7RPK3XjyYHNO79irJ1msfsE62731xYX0AWulpXGLkd/ From georgeramsower at gmail.com Sat Dec 27 22:04:01 2008 From: georgeramsower at gmail.com (George Ramsower) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 21:04:01 -0600 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet References: <49568F9C.2000701@att.net><4c56cbd30812271559k2ebdf1abk4e905fc0f375f2ba@mail.gmail.com> <20081228011816.1E01220A13@qs281.pair.com> Message-ID: <004501c96898$f023b740$6401a8c0@OLDGEORGE> From: "Roger Taylor" >>The idea is to avoid too much extra hardware, and yet still allow the >>PC to serve up files to the CoCo. Take for instance Nitros-9 >>development. If the entire system gets built on a PC, which is a whole >>lot quicker than doing it on the CoCo, then the PC can automatically >>serve up the disk image to the CoCo. Perhaps the CoCo has been set up >>with a Drivewire/CoCoNet ROM of some sort, and can boot directly from >>the serial port. >> >>In the case of CoCoNet, you could even have your CoCo boot directly >>from nightly Nitros-9 builds put up by someone on the internet, >>theoretically. > > I'm going to put a mode in the PC/server driver that causes CoCoNet to > automatically issue the DOS command on power up. You'd be able to toggle > the switch with a simple checkbox. However, no OS-9 or NitrOS-9 drivers > have been written yet. > > Roger, Booting and running OS-9 using a PC as the storage media is exciting. I would love to eliminate the floppies and that old hard drive. even if it wasn't any faster. The peace of mind would do the trick. I'm "Champing At The Bit" to see this happen. I'm curious, though. Would this bit banger driver slow the multitasking of OS9 down much? If so, would my RS-232 ports using the 6551 ease the CPU load? Holding my breath.... George From operator at coco3.com Sat Dec 27 23:23:46 2008 From: operator at coco3.com (Roger Taylor) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 22:23:46 -0600 Subject: [Coco] VCC 1.40 or "other mechanism" question In-Reply-To: <4956EB91.4090000@gmail.com> References: <4956EB91.4090000@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081228042430.D547E20A14@qs281.pair.com> At 08:59 PM 12/27/2008, you wrote: >I have a BASIC program (saved as ascii text on my windows system) >that I want to run on my CoCo3 (real or emulated). I have VCC 1.4 >loaded on a USB drive (so I can play CoCo games anywhere), as well >as a real CoCo3 (Disto controller, 3.5 and 5.25 floppy drives, MPI, >512 memory upgrade) I am also a registered user of Drivewire and >Roger Taylor's excellent Rainbow IDE. With CoCoNet and the Rainbow IDE, you can build virtual disks from the IDE and the CoCo can have the disk(s) mounted at the same time. DRIVE 0,"C:\PROGRAM FILES\RAINBOW IDE\PROJECTS\MYGAME\DISKS\DISK1.DSK" Now when you build your project and a .dsk is created, you can type DIR on the CoCo and the files are right there. I know that's a long pathname, but you should also be able to have projects in a directory such as e:\mygame\disks\disk1.dsk where e would be a USB drive or something. You can also write BASIC programs (or copy) from the CoCo to a mounted virtual disk and use imgtool.exe from the PC to read the files into an editor. CoCoNet (currently) doesn't allow loading in programs from the PC using LOAD or LOADM, but I can code this in, which would also mean I'd have to support SAVE and SAVEM to the PC. The enhanced LOAD and LOADM commands wouldn't barf on bad filetypes like they do when using a floppy disk. Heck, there's no reason why I couldn't do a LOAD "http://www.coco3.com/program.bas" to make things complete. What about CoCo-to-CoCo disk and file sharing? A PHP script on the web could be written to help do all sorts of neat things like this. Multi-player CoCo games: SAVEW "http://www.coco3.com/multiplayer.php?player=Roger&data=23908472489278948923472389478924789274893242394723984 where the data string could encode all sorts of parameters for your player in the game including X/Y coordinates, character, etc. The readback data generated by the web script could list the same type of data strings for each other player in the game. The running CoCo game could then plot all players based on their most information. A request that short can happen a few times a second or even faster. The number of players? Unlimited - controlled by the web script or CoCo game limits. This is possible right now with version .09. CoCo to CoCo chat is possible as well if you post your name and message to a helping PHP script on the web which also returns the latest messages from the other chatters, much like how the CoCo Cafe works except the messages would be raw and not HTML formatted into a fancy web page. -- Roger Taylor http://www.wordofthedayonline.com From operator at coco3.com Sat Dec 27 23:37:53 2008 From: operator at coco3.com (Roger Taylor) Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 22:37:53 -0600 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet In-Reply-To: <004501c96898$f023b740$6401a8c0@OLDGEORGE> References: <49568F9C.2000701@att.net> <4c56cbd30812271559k2ebdf1abk4e905fc0f375f2ba@mail.gmail.com> <20081228011816.1E01220A13@qs281.pair.com> <004501c96898$f023b740$6401a8c0@OLDGEORGE> Message-ID: <20081228043818.F37E320A13@qs281.pair.com> At 09:04 PM 12/27/2008, you wrote: >From: "Roger Taylor" > >Roger, > >Booting and running OS-9 using a PC as the storage media is >exciting. I would love to eliminate the floppies and that old hard >drive. even if it wasn't any faster. The peace of mind would do the trick. >I'm "Champing At The Bit" to see this happen. > >I'm curious, though. Would this bit banger driver slow the >multitasking of OS9 down much? >If so, would my RS-232 ports using the 6551 ease the CPU load? > >Holding my breath.... > >George It's much faster than real floppies. Even when you use VERIFY ON to write to the virtual disks, it writes and verifies quicker. As for slowing down OS-9, I don't see it. An OS-9 CoCoNet client/driver would do it's work when it is able and not butt in on the system to block IRQ/FIRQ during the short blasts of 115200 bps streams. Special care would be taken and a lot of testing. I'm also an expert with the 6551 ACIA, so there's no reason why support for RS-232 Paks or hacked DC Modem Paks, etc. couldn't at least be put into the Disk BASIC version for starters. If someone were to hack their Pak to fit a 28-pin socket (I've got a hacked ROM Pak board that does this), just an RS-232 Pak could simulate a virtual floppy controller for the CoCo with the DB-25 port being the connection to the PC's DB-9. -- Roger Taylor http://www.wordofthedayonline.com From gene.heskett at verizon.net Sun Dec 28 01:44:39 2008 From: gene.heskett at verizon.net (Gene Heskett) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 01:44:39 -0500 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet In-Reply-To: <289572.27071.qm@web111209.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <49568F9C.2000701@att.net> <20081228021336.65C4420A13@qs281.pair.com> <289572.27071.qm@web111209.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200812280144.40677.gene.heskett@verizon.net> On Saturday 27 December 2008, John Eric wrote: >Which is exactly why I realized I wouldn't be able to do it myself, but it > sure would be neat. The dmp-105 is supported by almost all CoCo programs, > so I thought it would be a good one to emulate. It's sad that windows made > printers ''dumb'' - the first inkjets that my uncle got back in the 90's > would work with the coco, but later on, they starting depending upon > windows and the pc's cpu to handle the nitty gritty and so could no longer > be attached to the good old coco... > I solved that problem with a couple of scripts that run on this linux box, and a USB extension cable with a 4 port hub plugged into the far end. I have purchased a Brother HL2140 laser, for about a 100 dollar bill. I wrote a script that serves as a monitoring daemon, copying whatever is sent out of the bitbanger on the coco to a ser-usb adaptor, plugged into that hub. As the coco can output at 9600 baud through /p when running nitros9, and the FDTI usb adapters are autospeed, so that data comes up here and is written to a file by cocod. When a certain amount of time goes by with no new data, it assumes the coco's 'list filename >/p' operation is finished, closes the file and hands it off to another script that renders it through ghostscript and sends it back to the laser printer, also plugged into that same hub. So I have a 20ppm B&W laser printer available for my beloved coco to use. The scripts are attached, save them, make them executable, and put them into the rc.local on your linux box to exec them at boot time. Put 'cocod' in /usr/local/libexec/cocod, it is the daemon, and put coco_print in /usr/local/libexec/coco_print. They will keep the last 25 print jobs in /tmp/CoCo, and when those have been used up, will recycle the count. The launching syntax in rc.local: /usr/local/libexec/cocod -------------- next part -------------- # child still has OutFile open as stdout, close it exec 1>&- # check syntax for closing a file descriptor FileToPrint=${1:?need a file name} if ! [[ -f $FileToPrint ]] || ! [[ -r $FileToPrint ]] then # error handling for missing file echo No file to print, sorry. >&2 exit fi # Now, if the printer is turned off, just let it be so its cached # the system is nice enough to delete /dev/usb/lp1 when it no longer powered up # Change below to match your setup. One could also send it to lp0, my c82 with B&W profile if [[ -e /dev/usb/lp1 ]] then lp -d lp3 -o cpi=12 -o lpi=7 < $FileToPrint else # echo using alternate printer lp0 >&2 # lp -d lp0 -o cpi=12 -o lpi=7 < $FileToPrint echo The brother is turned off or disconnected - Saving file. >&2 fi # If we don't do something with it, the drivers will nag you incessantly & must be killed From diegoba at adinet.com.uy Sun Dec 28 08:47:05 2008 From: diegoba at adinet.com.uy (Diego Barizo) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 11:47:05 -0200 Subject: [Coco] VCC 1.40 or "other mechanism" question In-Reply-To: <4956EB91.4090000@gmail.com> References: <4956EB91.4090000@gmail.com> Message-ID: <49578359.5040604@adinet.com.uy> What I do is use Wimgtool or file2dsk to put the windows file into a dsk. Diego Ed Orbea wrote: > I have a BASIC program (saved as ascii text on my windows system) that > I want to run on my CoCo3 (real or emulated). I have VCC 1.4 loaded on > a USB drive (so I can play CoCo games anywhere), as well as a real > CoCo3 (Disto controller, 3.5 and 5.25 floppy drives, MPI, 512 memory > upgrade) I am also a registered user of Drivewire and Roger Taylor's > excellent Rainbow IDE. > > Obviously the easiest way would be to copy & paste the BASIC program > from Windows Notepad into VCC, but as you all know, Windows shortcuts > don't work in VCC, so what process do the members of this list recommend? > Would it be best to do "everything" in Rainbow IDE (even to making a > DSK file with the BASIC program on it) > Or to use an RS-DOS editor to "copy & paste" > Or to use Wimgtool.exe to paste the ascii file onto a DSK > Or........... > > Thanks, and since I have a Disto SCII, I am looking forward to > obtaining a CoCoNet eprom (more stuff to play with ) > > Ed > > > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > From diegoba at adinet.com.uy Sun Dec 28 08:51:07 2008 From: diegoba at adinet.com.uy (Diego Barizo) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 11:51:07 -0200 Subject: [Coco] Coco Dial-up BBS In-Reply-To: <20081227.220012.2308.4.Johnchasteen.2@juno.com> References: <20081227.220012.2308.4.Johnchasteen.2@juno.com> Message-ID: <4957844B.4090508@adinet.com.uy> I'm in Uruguay, and it's been quite a lot since I asked, so I'll do it again. Someone around there from S.America? http://www.frappr.com/radioshackcolorcomputer Diego John T Chasteen wrote: > Happy New Year to all my Coco Friends in the US, Great Britain, > Australis Canada > Costa Rica... If I missed a country please forgive me and let me know > where are > located. What a great 80th winter on this earth and I still enjoy my > coco3s here in Florida > and Illinois... near the Fest in the Spring. > > > John C > ____________________________________________________________ > > From diegoba at adinet.com.uy Sun Dec 28 08:53:57 2008 From: diegoba at adinet.com.uy (Diego Barizo) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 11:53:57 -0200 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet In-Reply-To: <004501c96898$f023b740$6401a8c0@OLDGEORGE> References: <49568F9C.2000701@att.net><4c56cbd30812271559k2ebdf1abk4e905fc0f375f2ba@mail.gmail.com> <20081228011816.1E01220A13@qs281.pair.com> <004501c96898$f023b740$6401a8c0@OLDGEORGE> Message-ID: <495784F5.8020609@adinet.com.uy> Remember that if you want to get rid of old hardware, and save a lot of desk space, Cloud9's SuperIDE with a CF card as Hard Drive is perfect. Diego George Ramsower wrote: > > Roger, > > Booting and running OS-9 using a PC as the storage media is exciting. > I would love to eliminate the floppies and that old hard drive. even > if it wasn't any faster. The peace of mind would do the trick. > I'm "Champing At The Bit" to see this happen. > > I'm curious, though. Would this bit banger driver slow the > multitasking of OS9 down much? > If so, would my RS-232 ports using the 6551 ease the CPU load? > > Holding my breath.... > > George > > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > From Torsten at Dittel.info Sun Dec 28 09:48:05 2008 From: Torsten at Dittel.info (Torsten Dittel) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 15:48:05 +0100 Subject: [Coco] Coco Dial-up BBS In-Reply-To: <20081227.220012.2308.4.Johnchasteen.2@juno.com> References: <20081227.220012.2308.4.Johnchasteen.2@juno.com> Message-ID: John T Chasteen schrieb: > Happy New Year to all my Coco Friends in the US, Great Britain, > Australis Canada > Costa Rica... If I missed a country please forgive me and let me know > where are > located. You might want to add Denmark (Fedor) and Germany (me)... :-) Regards, Torsten From Torsten at Dittel.info Sun Dec 28 10:43:29 2008 From: Torsten at Dittel.info (Torsten Dittel) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 16:43:29 +0100 Subject: [Coco] New programs for new CoCo possibilities In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Chester Patterson schrieb: > ?Muchas gracias! > Asi que sabes acerca de nosotros los TICOS?!? I guess someone of my (German) family tribe made it to CR way back in the 1850s (www.dittelcr.com), so I'm in contact quite a lot of Ticos sharing the same family name... Regards, Torsten From robert.gault at worldnet.att.net Sun Dec 28 10:45:45 2008 From: robert.gault at worldnet.att.net (Robert Gault) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 10:45:45 -0500 Subject: [Coco] VCC 1.40 or "other mechanism" question In-Reply-To: <4956EB91.4090000@gmail.com> References: <4956EB91.4090000@gmail.com> Message-ID: <49579F29.1020002@worldnet.att.net> Ed Orbea wrote: > I have a BASIC program (saved as ascii text on my windows system) that I > want to run on my CoCo3 (real or emulated). I have VCC 1.4 loaded on a > USB drive (so I can play CoCo games anywhere), as well as a real CoCo3 > (Disto controller, 3.5 and 5.25 floppy drives, MPI, 512 memory upgrade) > I am also a registered user of Drivewire and Roger Taylor's excellent > Rainbow IDE. > > Obviously the easiest way would be to copy & paste the BASIC program > from Windows Notepad into VCC, but as you all know, Windows shortcuts > don't work in VCC, so what process do the members of this list recommend? > Would it be best to do "everything" in Rainbow IDE (even to making a DSK > file with the BASIC program on it) > Or to use an RS-DOS editor to "copy & paste" > Or to use Wimgtool.exe to paste the ascii file onto a DSK > Or........... > > Thanks, and since I have a Disto SCII, I am looking forward to obtaining > a CoCoNet eprom (more stuff to play with ) > > Ed Here are the currently available methods for transferring PC files to disk images. 1) The JVC emulators come with PORT.EXE which can move files from/to images and under DOS (ie. not WinXP etc.) also work with real floppies. 2) The Sourceforge Toolshed package associated with the Sourceforge NitrOS-9 project contains tools that move PC files from/to disk images, both RSDOS and OS-9. 3) MESS tools IMGTOOL.EXE and WIMGTOOL.EXE can move files from/to disk images only. Both RSDOS and OS-9 are supported. 4) MESS coco emulation will accept Paste so it is possible to cut and paste a file into a Coco path while running MESS emulation. 5) VCC with fdrawcmds.sys can read real floppies. Any tool that can place files on a real floppy can then make the data available to VCC by this indirect route. 6) CocoDisk.exe and OmniFlop.exe with the supplemental fdrawcmds.sys or omniflop.sys can move PC files from/to real floppies under any Windows system. Any program that can read real floppies can then move the files to disk images. 7) RainbowIDE and Portal-9 use either the MESS or Toolshed tools to create and move files to disk images. 8) Drivewire moves PC files to a real Coco. 9) The shortly available CoCoNet will move files in more ways than I can remember. :) From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Dec 28 10:52:56 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 10:52:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Coco] NitrOS9 driver for Tandy RS232 Pak? Message-ID: Title says it. I understand that OS-9 has always supported user consoles on the bit-banger serial port, but with speed limited to 300-baud (!) I have just acquired a Tandy RS232 Program Pak and am wondering whether such a thing as a terminal driver exists for it. Grepping the sources for NitrOS9 is showing only a device descriptor for a serial console. Where (if it exists) is the actual driver? I'd like to connect a serial terminal at, e.g. 19200 baud to the CoCo 3 and obtain an OS-9 login. While I like most everything about the CoCo as an 8-bit hobby machine, I find the keyboard unspeakably wretched. Ideally, I could use miniterm from my Linux box to log in. Any advice appreciated! Steve -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Dec 28 10:56:08 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 10:56:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Coco] VCC 1.40 or "other mechanism" question In-Reply-To: <49579F29.1020002@worldnet.att.net> References: <4956EB91.4090000@gmail.com> <49579F29.1020002@worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Dec 2008, Robert Gault wrote: > Here are the currently available methods for transferring PC files to disk > images. (snip) And, for the Linux users out there, use superformat for the low-level bits and copy the files with toolshed utilities. Steve -- From jet.pack at ymail.com Sun Dec 28 11:43:38 2008 From: jet.pack at ymail.com (John Eric) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 08:43:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Coco] NitrOS9 driver for Tandy RS232 Pak? References: Message-ID: <854853.18096.qm@web111201.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I have an issue of trs-80 microcomputer news around here somewhere that has an asm listing of a device descriptor or driver for the rs-232 pak. If I can locate which issue, I could scan it, but I thought os-9 L2 came with support for the rs-232 pack, if so, couldn't it becopied over to nitros9? ________________________________ From: Steven Hirsch To: Color Computer Mailing List Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 9:52:56 AM Subject: [Coco] NitrOS9 driver for Tandy RS232 Pak? Title says it. I understand that OS-9 has always supported user consoles on the bit-banger serial port, but with speed limited to 300-baud (!) I have just acquired a Tandy RS232 Program Pak and am wondering whether such a thing as a terminal driver exists for it. Grepping the sources for NitrOS9 is showing only a device descriptor for a serial console. Where (if it exists) is the actual driver? I'd like to connect a serial terminal at, e.g. 19200 baud to the CoCo 3 and obtain an OS-9 login. While I like most everything about the CoCo as an 8-bit hobby machine, I find the keyboard unspeakably wretched. Ideally, I could use miniterm from my Linux box to log in. Any advice appreciated! Steve -- -- Coco mailing list Coco at maltedmedia.com http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Dec 28 12:02:05 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 12:02:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Coco] NitrOS9 driver for Tandy RS232 Pak? In-Reply-To: <854853.18096.qm@web111201.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <854853.18096.qm@web111201.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Dec 2008, John Eric wrote: > I have an issue of trs-80 microcomputer news around here somewhere that > has an asm listing of a device descriptor or driver for the rs-232 pak. > If I can locate which issue, I could scan it, but I thought os-9 L2 came > with support for the rs-232 pack, if so, couldn't it becopied over to > nitros9? I recall reading warnings in the NitrOS9 docs about using stock OS-9 drivers. Does anyone know if this works? Steve > Title says it. I understand that OS-9 has always supported user > consoles on the bit-banger serial port, but with speed limited to > 300-baud (!) > > I have just acquired a Tandy RS232 Program Pak and am wondering whether > such a thing as a terminal driver exists for it. Grepping the sources > for NitrOS9 is showing only a device descriptor for a serial console. > Where (if it exists) is the actual driver? > > I'd like to connect a serial terminal at, e.g. 19200 baud to the CoCo 3 > and obtain an OS-9 login. While I like most everything about the CoCo > as an 8-bit hobby machine, I find the keyboard unspeakably wretched. > Ideally, I could use miniterm from my Linux box to log in. -- From curtisboyle at sasktel.net Sun Dec 28 12:08:26 2008 From: curtisboyle at sasktel.net (L. Curtis Boyle) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 11:08:26 -0600 Subject: [Coco] NitrOS9 driver for Tandy RS232 Pak? In-Reply-To: <854853.18096.qm@web111201.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <854853.18096.qm@web111201.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <04C94CD2-2CD4-45F5-8D1B-7E48C311DA0A@sasktel.net> The standard driver is ACIAPAK, but if Bruce Isted's SACIA is still part of the NitrOS9 distribution, use it instead (much more advanced, larger buffers, and can run at higher speeds). You will have to make sure that you're descriptor is pointing to the right driver. You can reliably run 9600 baud this way, and even 19.2k if you are downloading files using a non-steaming protocol (like YModem/XModem, bit not ZModem) and are running a 6309 chip with the appropriate version of Nitros. Sent from my iPhone L. Curtis Boyle On Dec 28, 2008, at 10:43 AM, John Eric wrote: > I have an issue of trs-80 microcomputer news around here somewhere > that has an asm listing of a device descriptor or driver for the > rs-232 pak. If I can locate which issue, I could scan it, but I > thought os-9 L2 came with support for the rs-232 pack, if so, > couldn't it becopied over to nitros9? > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Steven Hirsch > To: Color Computer Mailing List > Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 9:52:56 AM > Subject: [Coco] NitrOS9 driver for Tandy RS232 Pak? > > Title says it. I understand that OS-9 has always supported user > consoles on the bit-banger serial port, but with speed limited to > 300-baud (!) > > I have just acquired a Tandy RS232 Program Pak and am wondering > whether such a thing as a terminal driver exists for it. Grepping > the sources for NitrOS9 is showing only a device descriptor for a > serial console. Where (if it exists) is the actual driver? > > I'd like to connect a serial terminal at, e.g. 19200 baud to the > CoCo 3 and obtain an OS-9 login. While I like most everything about > the CoCo as an 8-bit hobby machine, I find the keyboard unspeakably > wretched. Ideally, I could use miniterm from my Linux box to log in. > > Any advice appreciated! > > Steve > > > -- > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > > > > > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Dec 28 12:09:25 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 12:09:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Coco] Question re: C Compiler sources Message-ID: Boisy, I started hacking my way through a build of the C Compiler sources and am running into one oddity. There are a number of disassembled files for the runtime library that have this type of situation at the end: .... bra L01a6 L0197 ldd 8,s L0199 pshs d ldd 8,s pshs d pshs u L01a1 lbsr L0027 leas 6,s L01a6 puls u,pc L01a6 ends The rma assembler is complaining about multiply-defined labels, which would appear to be a correct assessment. What's your sense about the intended syntax? I'm guessing that the second occurance of L01a6 is bogus, but you are far more familiar with the lay of the land here. FYI for anyone else who wants to dip in: The provided Makefiles are probably intended for use with an older or non-standard version of 'rma'. For example, in the library subdirectory it tries to do this: rma prof.a -o prof.r which is not correct for the current version in toolshed. By reading the sources (couldn't find any documentation), it appears that this is actually correct: rma prof.a -O=prof.r The Makefiles have other problems that I'll try to post about as I correct them. Steve -- From t.fadden at cox.net Sun Dec 28 12:22:08 2008 From: t.fadden at cox.net (Tim Fadden) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 10:22:08 -0700 Subject: [Coco] NitrOS9 driver for Tandy RS232 Pak? In-Reply-To: <04C94CD2-2CD4-45F5-8D1B-7E48C311DA0A@sasktel.net> References: <854853.18096.qm@web111201.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <04C94CD2-2CD4-45F5-8D1B-7E48C311DA0A@sasktel.net> Message-ID: <4957B5C0.5020008@cox.net> Steven, If you have a nitros09 distribution, look in: nitros09/6x09l2/modules/scf/ use 6309l2 or 6809l2 according to your preference. the 3 different distributions I have all have t2 descriptors ie: t2_sc6551.dd You can use smode to change address locations, speed, word length etc to match your serial port. I have a disto 4in1 and use a t2 descriptor as you describe. Also, if the only issue you have is the keyboard, I believe cloud-9 has an at keyboard adapter for the coco. I have 2 coco 3's repacked and use Bob Puppo's version of an XT keyboard adapter, and it works great. Tim Fadden L. Curtis Boyle wrote: > The standard driver is ACIAPAK, but if Bruce Isted's SACIA is still > part of the NitrOS9 distribution, use it instead (much more advanced, > larger buffers, and can run at higher speeds). You will have to make > sure that you're descriptor is pointing to the right driver. You can > reliably run 9600 baud this way, and even 19.2k if you are downloading > files using a non-steaming protocol (like YModem/XModem, bit not > ZModem) and are running a 6309 chip with the appropriate version of > Nitros. > > > Sent from my iPhone > L. Curtis Boyle > > > On Dec 28, 2008, at 10:43 AM, John Eric wrote: > >> I have an issue of trs-80 microcomputer news around here somewhere >> that has an asm listing of a device descriptor or driver for the >> rs-232 pak. If I can locate which issue, I could scan it, but I >> thought os-9 L2 came with support for the rs-232 pack, if so, >> couldn't it becopied over to nitros9? >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Steven Hirsch >> To: Color Computer Mailing List >> Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 9:52:56 AM >> Subject: [Coco] NitrOS9 driver for Tandy RS232 Pak? >> >> Title says it. I understand that OS-9 has always supported user >> consoles on the bit-banger serial port, but with speed limited to >> 300-baud (!) >> >> I have just acquired a Tandy RS232 Program Pak and am wondering >> whether such a thing as a terminal driver exists for it. Grepping >> the sources for NitrOS9 is showing only a device descriptor for a >> serial console. Where (if it exists) is the actual driver? >> >> I'd like to connect a serial terminal at, e.g. 19200 baud to the CoCo >> 3 and obtain an OS-9 login. While I like most everything about the >> CoCo as an 8-bit hobby machine, I find the keyboard unspeakably >> wretched. Ideally, I could use miniterm from my Linux box to log in. >> >> Any advice appreciated! >> >> Steve >> >> >> -- >> -- >> Coco mailing list >> Coco at maltedmedia.com >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Coco mailing list >> Coco at maltedmedia.com >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > > From boisy at tee-boy.com Sun Dec 28 13:25:46 2008 From: boisy at tee-boy.com (Boisy Pitre) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 12:25:46 -0600 Subject: [Coco] Question re: C Compiler sources In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9FE28DA6-9934-4670-B787-4FE3BD91F607@tee-boy.com> Steve, By the looks of it, L01a6 ends is bogus. Ends simply marks the end of a segment, and I would eliminate the label on that line. Sounds like you're making progress. Boisy On Dec 28, 2008, at 11:09 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > Boisy, > > I started hacking my way through a build of the C Compiler sources > and am running into one oddity. There are a number of disassembled > files for the runtime library that have this type of situation at > the end: > > .... > > bra L01a6 > L0197 ldd 8,s > L0199 pshs d > ldd 8,s > pshs d > pshs u > L01a1 lbsr L0027 > leas 6,s > L01a6 puls u,pc > > L01a6 ends > > The rma assembler is complaining about multiply-defined labels, > which would appear to be a correct assessment. What's your sense > about the intended syntax? I'm guessing that the second occurance > of L01a6 is bogus, but you are far more familiar with the lay of the > land here. > > FYI for anyone else who wants to dip in: The provided Makefiles are > probably intended for use with an older or non-standard version of > 'rma'. For example, in the library subdirectory it tries to do this: > > rma prof.a -o prof.r > > which is not correct for the current version in toolshed. By > reading the sources (couldn't find any documentation), it appears > that this is actually correct: > > rma prof.a -O=prof.r > > The Makefiles have other problems that I'll try to post about as I > correct them. > > Steve > > > -- > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco Regards, Boisy G. Pitre -- Tee-Boy Mobile: 337.781.3570 Email: boisy at tee-boy.com Web: http://www.tee-boy.com From georgeramsower at gmail.com Sun Dec 28 13:37:19 2008 From: georgeramsower at gmail.com (George Ramsower) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 12:37:19 -0600 Subject: [Coco] NitrOS9 driver for Tandy RS232 Pak? References: Message-ID: <005601c9691b$514f3a30$6401a8c0@OLDGEORGE> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Hirsch" > Title says it. I understand that OS-9 has always supported user consoles > on the bit-banger serial port, but with speed limited to 300-baud (!) > > I have just acquired a Tandy RS232 Program Pak and am wondering whether > such a thing as a terminal driver exists for it. Grepping the sources for > NitrOS9 is showing only a device descriptor for a serial console. Where > (if it exists) is the actual driver? > > I'd like to connect a serial terminal at, e.g. 19200 baud to the CoCo 3 > and obtain an OS-9 login. While I like most everything about the CoCo as > an 8-bit hobby machine, I find the keyboard unspeakably wretched. Ideally, > I could use miniterm from my Linux box to log in. > > Any advice appreciated! > > Steve Steve, In OS9 and Nitros9, the Deluxe RS232 program pack is called /t2. >>>>>>>>The rom needs to be removed from the program pak. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< I've been using Hyper Terminal on this PC for several years to communicate with my coco (OS-9 L2). It works just like you were on the coco keyboard, only you are actually on the PC. To do this, set up both systems for whatever speed you want. In your case, 19200, 8,n,1. In MW OS9, I don't get good results with that speed. 9600 works fine. I betcha Nitros9 will do it at 19200. To make this happen, in OS9... First, create a new boot disk with /t2 in it. Both the driver(ACIAPAK) and the descriptor(T2.dd). Then reboot with the new disk and set up your device descriptor using xmode /t2 ( may be different in Nitros9 ) In OS9 the speeds on /t2 and settings are as follows... type=0 >no parity baud= 0=110 1=300 3=1200 4=2400 6=9600 7=19200 The stop bit is automatically set to 1. That's all you need. Don't forget the pause.... -pause will allow the screen to scroll on and on. pause will only display 32 lines of text and then wait for a keypress. Of course, any of these settings can be changed on the fly and temporarily using xmode if you don't cobbler the thing. .Once done, make sure Hyper Terminal is set up the same way. When done and all works, use Cobbler to save these settings, modify and save your startup file and have fun. To use a login.... well, in OS9 you use(in the startup or command prompt) "tsmon /t2&" and you need to setup the login file in the SYS directory. Otherwise pressing enter will log you in. The details setting up a login file is in the manual and personally, I think it's not necessary since no one will hack into your coco. Use "shell i=/t2&" instead. This simply turns on the remote terminal to use as you wish. Add it to the startup file and it makes it easier. There's more fun to be had using a remote terminal. Once you get yours working, I've learned to do away with the keyboard scanner, the video, the memory associated with those and a few clock cycles to deal with the keyboard scanning. The coco video is now a moot thing and the system uses that memory area for it's use and it's fun to see the screen show the data changes as the system uses it. There's a few other things the system won't need since the /term is just another SIO. You can do away with GRFDRV. Also, if you rename /t2 to /term, the settings to change will now be called tmode instead of xmode. I think(but I could be wrong) that the T in tmode is Terminal and X in xmode is eXternal. Sounds good to ME! However, you can still do anything you want from a remote terminal and still use the coco as normal if you keep the /term as is. The caveat is programs that use graphics, cursor positioning and stuff like that won't work or won't even run on your PC. It's text only! Line editors is the only thing you will be able to do. I use some utilites from the OS9-L2 BBS to transfer files back and forth using only Hyper Terminal as the command center. Since you're using nitros9, there may be differences. If you experience loss of vision or ability to concentrate, have difficulty breathing, can't stand for more than fifteen minutes, pains in certain areas, please consult the gurus in Nitros9. George From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Dec 28 14:00:42 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 14:00:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Coco] NitrOS9 driver for Tandy RS232 Pak? In-Reply-To: <04C94CD2-2CD4-45F5-8D1B-7E48C311DA0A@sasktel.net> References: <854853.18096.qm@web111201.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <04C94CD2-2CD4-45F5-8D1B-7E48C311DA0A@sasktel.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Dec 2008, L. Curtis Boyle wrote: > The standard driver is ACIAPAK, but if Bruce Isted's SACIA is still part of > the NitrOS9 distribution, use it instead (much more advanced, larger buffers, > and can run at higher speeds). You will have to make sure that you're > descriptor is pointing to the right driver. You can reliably run 9600 baud > this way, and even 19.2k if you are downloading files using a non-steaming > protocol (like YModem/XModem, bit not ZModem) and are running a 6309 chip > with the appropriate version of Nitros. Thanks for all the responses. Each of them assumes knowledge not in evidence on my part, but there are enough overlapping bits that I should be able to hack through it :-). In particular, there is a fragment of documentation in the NitrOS9 docs subdirectory that mentions "ACIA51" and has some verbiage on the subject. However, it's not included in anything other than the L1 manual so I'm uncertain as to whether it applies to L2. None of the subject drivers appear to be supplied in the NitrOS9 source distribution. Steve -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Dec 28 14:14:04 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 14:14:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Coco] Question re: C Compiler sources In-Reply-To: <9FE28DA6-9934-4670-B787-4FE3BD91F607@tee-boy.com> References: <9FE28DA6-9934-4670-B787-4FE3BD91F607@tee-boy.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Dec 2008, Boisy Pitre wrote: > Steve, > > By the looks of it, L01a6 ends is bogus. Ends simply marks the end of a > segment, and I would eliminate the label on that line. > > Sounds like you're making progress. Ok, I'm past that and have built the preprocessor, compiler and optimizer. I created a "/dd" directory off the root of my system and placed the headers from a real compiler distribution in /dd/defs and the clib in /dd/lib. Next, I created a simple "Hello, World" one-liner and tried to figure out how to compile it. This seems to attempt preprocessing: ./coprep hello.c > hello1.c But the preprocesor is making a hash of the output. Looks like buffered and unbuffered I/O are getting used interchangeably without proper flushing. More later... Just curious, though. Is this actually supposed to work? There is some commentary from the person who packaged it that would suggest it does, but I cannot believe this particular tarball represents a working compiler. I've hit too many fundamental issues to accept that. Steve -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Dec 28 14:40:50 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 14:40:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Coco] More progress Message-ID: Ok, I have the optimizer outputting the following assembler: psect hello_c,0,0,0,0,0 nam hello_c ttl main main: pshs u ldd #_1 lbsr _stkcheck leax _2,pcr pshs x lbsr printf leas 2,s puls u,pc _1 equ -70 _2 fcc "Hello, world" fcb $d fcc "" fcb $0 endsect nop Which looks reasonable. However, mamou refuses to process it and displays the following error: The Mamou Assembler Version 01.00 12/28/2008 14:38:11 Page 001 ***** Error: unrecognized mnemonic 00001 E psect hello_c,0, Assembler Summary: - 1 errors, 0 warnings - 17 lines (17 source, 0 blank, 0 comment) - $0000 (0) program bytes, $0000 (0) data bytes - No output file This makes zero sense to me, since it cheerfully assembles the library sources; all of which begin with a psect pseudo-op. What am I missing? Steve -- From boisy at tee-boy.com Sun Dec 28 15:12:26 2008 From: boisy at tee-boy.com (Boisy Pitre) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 14:12:26 -0600 Subject: [Coco] More progress In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0855FAED-B822-4BA6-8CC6-BBDCBC9B459A@tee-boy.com> Steve, mamou cannot process rma style assembler files, just the 'asm' style ones. Using 'rma' from toolshed should assemble this code, so try that. On Dec 28, 2008, at 1:40 PM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > Ok, I have the optimizer outputting the following assembler: > > psect hello_c,0,0,0,0,0 > nam hello_c > ttl main > main: pshs u > ldd #_1 > lbsr _stkcheck > leax _2,pcr > pshs x > lbsr printf > leas 2,s > puls u,pc > _1 equ -70 > _2 fcc "Hello, world" > fcb $d > fcc "" > fcb $0 > endsect nop > > Which looks reasonable. However, mamou refuses to process it and > displays the following error: > > The Mamou Assembler Version 01.00 12/28/2008 14:38:11 Page > 001 > > > > ***** Error: unrecognized mnemonic > 00001 E > psect hello_c,0, > > Assembler Summary: > - 1 errors, 0 warnings > - 17 lines (17 source, 0 blank, 0 comment) > - $0000 (0) program bytes, $0000 (0) data bytes > - No output file > > > This makes zero sense to me, since it cheerfully assembles the > library sources; all of which begin with a psect pseudo-op. > > What am I missing? > > > Steve > > > -- > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco Regards, Boisy G. Pitre -- Tee-Boy Mobile: 337.781.3570 Email: boisy at tee-boy.com Web: http://www.tee-boy.com From farna at att.net Sun Dec 28 15:48:09 2008 From: farna at att.net (Frank Swygert) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 15:48:09 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Future CoCo discussion (was CoCoNet) Message-ID: <4957E609.7060305@att.net> Didn't really mean to hi-jack the CoCoNet thread, so replies will be in this new thread: You weren't "shooting me down" James, I really think I understand. Those just wanting to play games and such from their youth probably won't mind emulation at all. Those true "retro" computer admirers prefer the hardware as well. The only partial hardware solution is the FPGA idea. Some of the hardware will have to be emulated, but the thing could have a CC3 mode and an enhanced mode, including faster hardware. If something like the old "512K BASIC" could be implemented in DECB that would be fantastic, but then backward compatibility would be lost. I liked the ease of programming the CoCo in BASIC, though there's hardly a point now. With the FPGA unit you can just "throw some mgHz" at the problem of speed. Doesn't help memory access, but that can partially be addressed with programming, especially with RAM drives and such that lots of memory make available, and faster drive hardware. I wrote a program once that used a RAM drive on a CC3 -- it took a bit to load from disc, but ran fast once loaded. To reduce a power interruption from causing data loss, data was still written to disc. The main program was mostly a menu that called other programs to do specialized tasks then return to the menu. Emulating the entire system is doable NOW with relative ease and little expense. A software package designed to take over a PC entirely (or rather mask PC identity) could be run on any old cheap Pentium PC. I had wanted to set my old 486 HP Omnibook laptop up that way using Keil's DOS emulator, but HP used some strange screen drivers and such that aren't 100% compatible without special drivers, and there are no DOS drivers, just Windows 95/98. No point in setting it up with all the overhead of Windows. I don't find the hardware issue as that important, not when 100% of the existing hardware can be emulated. I can only see the absence of a cartridge port as a block to those who want to use the emulated CoCo for one of it's strengths -- interfacing with the real world. Either a ISA/PCI card could be designed and programmed to emulate a cartridge port or the PC parallel port could possibly be reprogrammed to act in a similar manner. We have to face the same fact that Motorola did when they went from 6800 architecture to 68000 -- there can't be 100% backward compatibility if you want a lot more power. 80-90% CoCo3 software compatibility (which would mean 60-75% CoCo 1/2 compatibility, I think) should be an acceptable figure. All the hardware is so old (with the exceptions of Cloud-9's stuff, and a few other exceptions) in age and technology that there's no real reason to lament hardware compatibility. It could be possible with either method, but is it that necessary? -------------- From: James Dessart On 12/27/08, Frank Swygert wrote: > > What I find ambiguous is ... that the emulators do the same thing, only run on a PC > > also. While the idea is to make the PC a slave to the CoCo instead of the > > other way around, it just seems like a lot of trouble for nothing. I suppose > > it's good for sharing files between the two systems, or using the PC to > > download DSK files then install on the CoCo. I suppose those who have a CoCo > > and PC both set up at and in use at the same time will find it more useful > > though. The PC can easily serve the CoCo while still doing other things. > The idea is to avoid too much extra hardware, and yet still allow the PC to serve up files to the CoCo... Perhaps the CoCo has been set up with a Drivewire/CoCoNet ROM of some sort, and can boot directly from the serial port. In the case of CoCoNet, you could even have your CoCo boot directly from nightly Nitros-9 builds put up by someone on the internet, theoretically. As for an emulator, even a dedicated one, with CoCo "compatible" hardware, it still wouldn't be a real CoCo, and I don't think the enthusiasts of real CoCo systems would be interested. The people who are willing to use an emulated CoCo will just use a PC with an emulator. Not to shoot you down or anything, I'm just trying to explain why this is probably a preferable solution. -- Frank Swygert Publisher, "American Motors Cars" Magazine (AMC) For all AMC enthusiasts http://farna.home.att.net/AMC.html (free download available!) From farna at att.net Sun Dec 28 16:33:19 2008 From: farna at att.net (Frank Swygert) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 16:33:19 -0500 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet (DMP printer emulation) Message-ID: <4957F09F.90603@att.net> I found this while searching for a dot-matrix printer emulator: http://printer-emulator.j-m-s.com/ Pricey, but should work. This guy seems to have solved the problem: http://www.trs-80emulators.com/trs32_doc.html As this one has: http://www.xs4all.nl/~gp/VirtualII/ This appears to be a free download, so you might talk this guy into sharing his code for printer emulation. ---------------------------------- Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 18:26:30 -0800 (PST) From: John Eric Subject: Re: [Coco] CoCoNet The dmp-105 is supported by almost all CoCo programs, so I thought it would be a good one to emulate. It's sad that windows made printers ''dumb'' - the first inkjets that my uncle got back in the 90's would work with the coco, but later on, they starting depending upon windows and the pc's cpu to handle the nitty gritty and so could no longer be attached to the good old coco... -- Frank Swygert Publisher, "American Motors Cars" Magazine (AMC) For all AMC enthusiasts http://farna.home.att.net/AMC.html (free download available!) From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Dec 28 16:48:16 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 16:48:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Coco] More progress In-Reply-To: <0855FAED-B822-4BA6-8CC6-BBDCBC9B459A@tee-boy.com> References: <0855FAED-B822-4BA6-8CC6-BBDCBC9B459A@tee-boy.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Dec 2008, Boisy Pitre wrote: > Steve, > > mamou cannot process rma style assembler files, just the 'asm' style ones. > Using 'rma' from toolshed should assemble this code, so try that. Got it. Thanks! Coming up with missing symbols at link: Unresolved references: _stkcheck hello_c in hello.r errno io_a in /dd/lib/clib.l _flacc io_a in /dd/lib/clib.l memend mem_a in /dd/lib/clib.l _mtop mem_a in /dd/lib/clib.l _stbot mem_a in /dd/lib/clib.l errno syscommon_a in /dd/lib/clib.l These look like they should be compiler-generated. In Unix, I'd expect the init stub to define them. What is the equivalent in OS-9? I grepped through the sources for rlink, rma, cprep, etc. and could find only the place where code is generated that references, e.g. _stkcheck and errno. Is there a stub library that needs to be included in the link command? I'm doing: $ rlink -l=/dd/lib/clib.l -o=hello hello.r Steve p.s. - Something is generating an incorrect psect header, but I worked around that by changing the language/type byte manually from 0 --> $11. p.p.s - There is a platform dependency in toolshed that should be addressed. In rof.h: typedef struct { /* Sync bytes used by the linker to recognize a ROF */ // long h_sync; BZZZT! // Needs to be: int h_sync; When building on 64-bit Linux, a long is 8 bytes. This creates problems needless to say. I tried specifying -m32 in the build, but that creates a rash of problems at the point where the rma link runs - something about object format being invalid for x86_64 architecture? -- From boisy at tee-boy.com Sun Dec 28 17:11:39 2008 From: boisy at tee-boy.com (Boisy Pitre) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 16:11:39 -0600 Subject: [Coco] More progress In-Reply-To: References: <0855FAED-B822-4BA6-8CC6-BBDCBC9B459A@tee-boy.com> Message-ID: Steve, Change your line to: rlink -l=/dd/lib/clib.l -o=hello.r cstart.r hello.r The symbols you mentioned are located in cstart.r (the C runtime). If you don't have it I probably can send it to you. Regards, Boisy G. Pitre -- Tee-Boy Mobile: 337.781.3570 Email: boisy at tee-boy.com Web: http://www.tee-boy.com On Dec 28, 2008, at 3:48 PM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Sun, 28 Dec 2008, Boisy Pitre wrote: > >> Steve, >> >> mamou cannot process rma style assembler files, just the 'asm' >> style ones. Using 'rma' from toolshed should assemble this code, so >> try that. > > Got it. Thanks! > > Coming up with missing symbols at link: > > Unresolved references: > _stkcheck hello_c in hello.r > errno io_a in /dd/lib/clib.l > _flacc io_a in /dd/lib/clib.l > memend mem_a in /dd/lib/clib.l > _mtop mem_a in /dd/lib/clib.l > _stbot mem_a in /dd/lib/clib.l > errno syscommon_a in /dd/lib/clib.l > > These look like they should be compiler-generated. In Unix, I'd > expect the init stub to define them. What is the equivalent in > OS-9? I grepped through the sources for rlink, rma, cprep, etc. and > could find only the place where code is generated that references, > e.g. _stkcheck and errno. > > Is there a stub library that needs to be included in the link command? > > I'm doing: > > $ rlink -l=/dd/lib/clib.l -o=hello hello.r > > > Steve > > p.s. - Something is generating an incorrect psect header, but I > worked around that by changing the language/type byte manually from > 0 --> $11. > > p.p.s - There is a platform dependency in toolshed that should be > addressed. In rof.h: > > typedef struct > { > /* Sync bytes used by the linker to recognize a ROF */ > // long h_sync; BZZZT! > > // Needs to be: > int h_sync; > > When building on 64-bit Linux, a long is 8 bytes. This creates > problems needless to say. I tried specifying -m32 in the build, but > that creates a rash of problems at the point where the rma link runs > - something about object format being invalid for x86_64 architecture? > > > > -- > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco From chawks at dls.net Sun Dec 28 17:16:49 2008 From: chawks at dls.net (Christopher Hawks) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 16:16:49 -0600 Subject: [Coco] NitrOS9 driver for Tandy RS232 Pak? In-Reply-To: References: <854853.18096.qm@web111201.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <04C94CD2-2CD4-45F5-8D1B-7E48C311DA0A@sasktel.net> Message-ID: <4957FAD1.7000406@dls.net> Steven Hirsch said the following on 12/28/2008 01:00 PM: > On Sun, 28 Dec 2008, L. Curtis Boyle wrote: > >> The standard driver is ACIAPAK, but if Bruce Isted's SACIA is still >> part of the NitrOS9 distribution, use it instead (much more advanced, >> larger buffers, and can run at higher speeds). You will have to make >> sure that you're descriptor is pointing to the right driver. You can >> reliably run 9600 baud this way, and even 19.2k if you are downloading >> files using a non-steaming protocol (like YModem/XModem, bit not >> ZModem) and are running a 6309 chip with the appropriate version of >> Nitros. > > Thanks for all the responses. Each of them assumes knowledge not in > evidence on my part, but there are enough overlapping bits that I should > be able to hack through it :-). > > In particular, there is a fragment of documentation in the NitrOS9 docs > subdirectory that mentions "ACIA51" and has some verbiage on the > subject. However, it's not included in anything other than the L1 manual > so I'm uncertain as to whether it applies to L2. > > None of the subject drivers appear to be supplied in the NitrOS9 source > distribution. In /nitros9/level1/modules/ sc6551.asm - driver source (Level 1 and Level 2) t2_sc6551.asm - descriptor source (Level 1 and Level 2) In /nitros9/level1/coco/modules/ sc6551.dr - driver t2_sc6551.dd - descriptor And /nitros9/level2/coco3/modules/ sc6551.dr - driver t2_sc6551.dd - descriptor There are for the Tandy RS232 pak. Christopher R. Hawks HAWKSoft --------------------------------------------------------- The trouble with conspiracy theories are that they assume the government is organized. From zootzoot at cfl.rr.com Sun Dec 28 17:13:47 2008 From: zootzoot at cfl.rr.com (Stephen Castello) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 17:13:47 -0500 Subject: [Coco] More progress In-Reply-To: References: <0855FAED-B822-4BA6-8CC6-BBDCBC9B459A@tee-boy.com> Message-ID: <9cufl45gssef0ku8ced8lkf0u887rlmpgo@4ax.com> On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 16:48:16 -0500 (EST), Steven Hirsch had a flock of green cheek conures squawk out: >On Sun, 28 Dec 2008, Boisy Pitre wrote: > >> Steve, >> >> mamou cannot process rma style assembler files, just the 'asm' style ones. >> Using 'rma' from toolshed should assemble this code, so try that. > >Got it. Thanks! > >Coming up with missing symbols at link: > >Unresolved references: > _stkcheck hello_c in hello.r > errno io_a in /dd/lib/clib.l > _flacc io_a in /dd/lib/clib.l > memend mem_a in /dd/lib/clib.l > _mtop mem_a in /dd/lib/clib.l > _stbot mem_a in /dd/lib/clib.l > errno syscommon_a in /dd/lib/clib.l > >These look like they should be compiler-generated. In Unix, I'd expect >the init stub to define them. What is the equivalent in OS-9? I grepped >through the sources for rlink, rma, cprep, etc. and could find only the >place where code is generated that references, e.g. _stkcheck and errno. > >Is there a stub library that needs to be included in the link command? > >I'm doing: > >$ rlink -l=/dd/lib/clib.l -o=hello hello.r > IIRC, it's cstart.r the one you're missing. Stephen From jdaggett at gate.net Sun Dec 28 18:02:10 2008 From: jdaggett at gate.net (jdaggett at gate.net) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 18:02:10 -0500 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet In-Reply-To: <20081228010848.1B41020A13@qs281.pair.com> References: <49568F9C.2000701@att.net>, <20081228010848.1B41020A13@qs281.pair.com> Message-ID: <4957BF22.18610.E7269F@jdaggett.gate.net> On 27 Dec 2008 at 19:08, Roger Taylor wrote: > On top of that, a DB-9 to bluetooth wireless device can be attached to > the CoCo, and a cheap bluetooth USB dongle on the PC (to add a > wireless COM port), and you've got a wireless CoCo with internet and > virtual disk capabilities. The internet support will grow but for now > you can fetch web files, and by appending parameters to the request > URL, a LOT can be done to give the CoCo the power to use the internet. > > How about a multiplayer CoCo game, anyone? If each game posts it's > status to a web server and the readback file contains the other > player's statuses, there you go. ++++++++++++++++ how about a USB interface to read thumb Drives and USB hardrives? Add some software and about $20 and that could be done. FTDI makes the Vinculum chip. Use their VDIP1/2 modules and you can access any USB storage device. It handles all the FAT requirements. It can be accessed in FIFO mode, SPI mode or serial mode. The only drawback I have seen on this chip is that in FAT 32 mode it will not support long file names.. Only 8.3 format. There is a simple command set that is communicated to the chip. Also program the same chip with different software, freely available, and add VS1003 chip and you have a WMA/MP3 player. Both could be done for about $50. james From jdaggett at gate.net Sun Dec 28 18:14:28 2008 From: jdaggett at gate.net (jdaggett at gate.net) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 18:14:28 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Future CoCo discussion (was CoCoNet) In-Reply-To: <4957E609.7060305@att.net> References: <4957E609.7060305@att.net> Message-ID: <4957C204.2892.F268E2@jdaggett.gate.net> Frank I tend to agree with you in that there are those that want emulation and those that would like hardware. Hardware route using an FPGA is best taken using existing boards. The problem there is no one board is "prefect" for a Coco4. Ones that would be near perfect also exceed the $500 price tag. Virtex/5 boards can exceed $1000. designing one exclusively for Coco4 may not be a viable cost alternative. Any large FPGA is going to require an 8 layer board as the chip will be in BGA package. Better to use a less perfect development board that has sufficient expansion capability and add boards to the expansion ports. james On 28 Dec 2008 at 15:48, Frank Swygert wrote: > Didn't really mean to hi-jack the CoCoNet thread, so replies will be > in this new thread: > > You weren't "shooting me down" James, I really think I understand. > Those just wanting to play games and such from their youth probably > won't mind emulation at all. Those true "retro" computer admirers > prefer the hardware as well. > > The only partial hardware solution is the FPGA idea. Some of the > hardware will have to be emulated, but the thing could have a CC3 mode > and an enhanced mode, including faster hardware. If something like the > old "512K BASIC" could be implemented in DECB that would be fantastic, > but then backward compatibility would be lost. I liked the ease of > programming the CoCo in BASIC, though there's hardly a point now. With > the FPGA unit you can just "throw some mgHz" at the problem of speed. > Doesn't help memory access, but that can partially be addressed with > programming, especially with RAM drives and such that lots of memory > make available, and faster drive hardware. > > I wrote a program once that used a RAM drive on a CC3 -- it took a bit > to load from disc, but ran fast once loaded. To reduce a power > interruption from causing data loss, data was still written to disc. > The main program was mostly a menu that called other programs to do > specialized tasks then return to the menu. > > Emulating the entire system is doable NOW with relative ease and > little expense. A software package designed to take over a PC entirely > (or rather mask PC identity) could be run on any old cheap Pentium PC. > I had wanted to set my old 486 HP Omnibook laptop up that way using > Keil's DOS emulator, but HP used some strange screen drivers and such > that aren't 100% compatible without special drivers, and there are no > DOS drivers, just Windows 95/98. No point in setting it up with all > the overhead of Windows. > > I don't find the hardware issue as that important, not when 100% of > the existing hardware can be emulated. I can only see the absence of a > cartridge port as a block to those who want to use the emulated CoCo > for one of it's strengths -- interfacing with the real world. Either a > ISA/PCI card could be designed and programmed to emulate a cartridge > port or the PC parallel port could possibly be reprogrammed to act in > a similar manner. > > We have to face the same fact that Motorola did when they went from > 6800 architecture to 68000 -- there can't be 100% backward > compatibility if you want a lot more power. 80-90% CoCo3 software > compatibility (which would mean 60-75% CoCo 1/2 compatibility, I > think) should be an acceptable figure. All the hardware is so old > (with the exceptions of Cloud-9's stuff, and a few other exceptions) > in age and technology that there's no real reason to lament hardware > compatibility. It could be possible with either method, but is it that > necessary? > > -------------- > From: James Dessart > > On 12/27/08, Frank Swygert wrote: > > > > > What I find ambiguous is ... that the emulators do the same thing, > > > only run on a PC also. While the idea is to make the PC a slave to > > > the CoCo instead of the other way around, it just seems like a lot > > > of trouble for nothing. I suppose it's good for sharing files > > > between the two systems, or using the PC to download DSK files > > > then install on the CoCo. I suppose those who have a CoCo and PC > > > both set up at and in use at the same time will find it more > > > useful though. The PC can easily serve the CoCo while still doing > > > other things. > > > > The idea is to avoid too much extra hardware, and yet still allow the > PC to serve up files to the CoCo... Perhaps the CoCo has been > set up with a Drivewire/CoCoNet ROM of some sort, and can boot > directly from the serial port. > > In the case of CoCoNet, you could even have your CoCo boot directly > from nightly Nitros-9 builds put up by someone on the internet, > theoretically. > > As for an emulator, even a dedicated one, with CoCo "compatible" > hardware, it still wouldn't be a real CoCo, and I don't think the > enthusiasts of real CoCo systems would be interested. The people who > are willing to use an emulated CoCo will just use a PC with an > emulator. > > Not to shoot you down or anything, I'm just trying to explain why this > is probably a preferable solution. > > -- > Frank Swygert > Publisher, "American Motors Cars" > Magazine (AMC) > For all AMC enthusiasts > http://farna.home.att.net/AMC.html > (free download available!) > > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco From gene.heskett at verizon.net Sun Dec 28 19:53:10 2008 From: gene.heskett at verizon.net (Gene Heskett) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 19:53:10 -0500 Subject: [Coco] NitrOS9 driver for Tandy RS232 Pak? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200812281953.10566.gene.heskett@verizon.net> On Sunday 28 December 2008, Steven Hirsch wrote: >Title says it. I understand that OS-9 has always supported user consoles >on the bit-banger serial port, but with speed limited to 300-baud (!) > >I have just acquired a Tandy RS232 Program Pak and am wondering whether >such a thing as a terminal driver exists for it. Grepping the sources for >NitrOS9 is showing only a device descriptor for a serial console. Where >(if it exists) is the actual driver? > >I'd like to connect a serial terminal at, e.g. 19200 baud to the CoCo 3 >and obtain an OS-9 login. While I like most everything about the CoCo as >an 8-bit hobby machine, I find the keyboard unspeakably wretched. >Ideally, I could use miniterm from my Linux box to log in. > >Any advice appreciated! > >Steve I use minicom here. It supports all the usual file transfer suspects, and the linux rzsz is compatible with the os9 version on the coco. -- Cheers, Gene "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Not all who own a harp are harpers. -- Marcus Terentius Varro From gene.heskett at verizon.net Sun Dec 28 19:54:22 2008 From: gene.heskett at verizon.net (Gene Heskett) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 19:54:22 -0500 Subject: [Coco] NitrOS9 driver for Tandy RS232 Pak? In-Reply-To: <854853.18096.qm@web111201.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <854853.18096.qm@web111201.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200812281954.22051.gene.heskett@verizon.net> On Sunday 28 December 2008, John Eric wrote: >I have an issue of trs-80 microcomputer news around here somewhere that has > an asm listing of a device descriptor or driver for the rs-232 pak. If I > can locate which issue, I could scan it, but I thought os-9 L2 came with > support for the rs-232 pack, if so, couldn't it becopied over to nitros9? > No need to, its been there for a decade or so already. -- Cheers, Gene "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Not all who own a harp are harpers. -- Marcus Terentius Varro From gene.heskett at verizon.net Sun Dec 28 19:58:47 2008 From: gene.heskett at verizon.net (Gene Heskett) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 19:58:47 -0500 Subject: [Coco] NitrOS9 driver for Tandy RS232 Pak? In-Reply-To: References: <04C94CD2-2CD4-45F5-8D1B-7E48C311DA0A@sasktel.net> Message-ID: <200812281958.47244.gene.heskett@verizon.net> On Sunday 28 December 2008, Steven Hirsch wrote: >On Sun, 28 Dec 2008, L. Curtis Boyle wrote: >> The standard driver is ACIAPAK, but if Bruce Isted's SACIA is still part >> of the NitrOS9 distribution, use it instead (much more advanced, larger >> buffers, and can run at higher speeds). You will have to make sure that >> you're descriptor is pointing to the right driver. You can reliably run >> 9600 baud this way, and even 19.2k if you are downloading files using a >> non-steaming protocol (like YModem/XModem, bit not ZModem) and are running >> a 6309 chip with the appropriate version of Nitros. > >Thanks for all the responses. Each of them assumes knowledge not in >evidence on my part, but there are enough overlapping bits that I should >be able to hack through it :-). > >In particular, there is a fragment of documentation in the NitrOS9 docs >subdirectory that mentions "ACIA51" and has some verbiage on the subject. >However, it's not included in anything other than the L1 manual so I'm >uncertain as to whether it applies to L2. > >None of the subject drivers appear to be supplied in the NitrOS9 source >distribution. > >Steve Sure is Steve: /opt/os9/nitros/MODULES/sacia.asm It is not level1 or level2 specific. -- Cheers, Gene "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) It's always darkest just before it gets pitch black. From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Dec 28 21:18:30 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 21:18:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Coco] More progress In-Reply-To: References: <0855FAED-B822-4BA6-8CC6-BBDCBC9B459A@tee-boy.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Dec 2008, Boisy Pitre wrote: > Steve, > > Change your line to: > > rlink -l=/dd/lib/clib.l -o=hello.r cstart.r hello.r > > The symbols you mentioned are located in cstart.r (the C runtime). If you > don't have it I probably can send it to you. Boisy, et al, I was able to hack one together by taking cstart.a from the CoCo compiler and and os9defs.a I found in the NitrOS9 distribution. I actually had to ensure that the C library came last: $ rlink hello.r cstart.r -l=/dd/lib/clib.l -o=hello Now, on to the code generation issues. I cannot see anything in the compiler sources that would properly set the psect pseudo-op to the correct language/type value. The compiler has a line that hard-codes zero for this value and the following one in the header. Unless I edit by hand, the linker complains: linker fatal: 'hello.r' contains no mainline >From reading the code, this is based on the fact that it's finding zero as the language/type value. In a "real" situation, do you know what modifies the psect line for the primary program? Steve (almost there now) -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Dec 28 21:21:34 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 21:21:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Coco] NitrOS9 driver for Tandy RS232 Pak? In-Reply-To: <200812281958.47244.gene.heskett@verizon.net> References: <04C94CD2-2CD4-45F5-8D1B-7E48C311DA0A@sasktel.net> <200812281958.47244.gene.heskett@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Dec 2008, Gene Heskett wrote: >> None of the subject drivers appear to be supplied in the NitrOS9 source >> distribution. >> >> Steve > > Sure is Steve: > > /opt/os9/nitros/MODULES/sacia.asm > > It is not level1 or level2 specific. Hm. I have the source tree checked out from CVS and that file is not there. Where did you obtain the sources from? Steve -- From da3m0n_slay3r at yahoo.com Sun Dec 28 21:56:25 2008 From: da3m0n_slay3r at yahoo.com (Bill Barnes) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 18:56:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Coco] NitrOS9 driver for Tandy RS232 Pak? In-Reply-To: <005601c9691b$514f3a30$6401a8c0@OLDGEORGE> Message-ID: <816324.57247.qm@web31106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Given enough time, I or someone else, if it hasn't already happened, could have a dumb-OS9 terminal. A terminal program that would respond to OS-9 escape code sequences and position the cursor accordingly. Graphix beyond that... well... not as easily, if at all. -Later! ?-WB-??? -- BABIC Computer Consulting. --- On Sun, 12/28/08, George Ramsower wrote: > From: George Ramsower > Subject: Re: [Coco] NitrOS9 driver for Tandy RS232 Pak? > To: "CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts" > Date: Sunday, December 28, 2008, 12:37 PM > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Hirsch" > > > Title says it. I understand that OS-9 has always > supported user consoles on the bit-banger serial port, but > with speed limited to 300-baud (!) > > > > I have just acquired a Tandy RS232 Program Pak and am > wondering whether such a thing as a terminal driver exists > for it. Grepping the sources for NitrOS9 is showing only a > device descriptor for a serial console. Where (if it > exists) is the actual driver? > > > > I'd like to connect a serial terminal at, e.g. > 19200 baud to the CoCo 3 and obtain an OS-9 login. While I > like most everything about the CoCo as an 8-bit hobby > machine, I find the keyboard unspeakably wretched. Ideally, > I could use miniterm from my Linux box to log in. > > > > Any advice appreciated! > > > > Steve > > Steve, > > In OS9 and Nitros9, the Deluxe RS232 program pack is called > /t2. > >>>>>>>>The rom needs to be removed > from the program pak. > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< > > I've been using Hyper Terminal on this PC for several > years to communicate with my coco (OS-9 L2). It works just > like you were on the coco keyboard, only you are actually on > the PC. > To do this, set up both systems for whatever speed you > want. In your case, 19200, 8,n,1. > In MW OS9, I don't get good results with that speed. > 9600 works fine. I betcha Nitros9 will do it at 19200. > To make this happen, in OS9... > First, create a new boot disk with /t2 in it. Both the > driver(ACIAPAK) and the descriptor(T2.dd). > Then reboot with the new disk and set up your device > descriptor using xmode /t2 ( may be different in Nitros9 ) > In OS9 the speeds on /t2 and settings are as follows... > > type=0 >no parity > > baud= > 0=110 > 1=300 > 3=1200 > 4=2400 > 6=9600 > 7=19200 > > The stop bit is automatically set to 1. That's all you > need. > > Don't forget the pause.... > -pause will allow the screen to scroll on and on. > pause will only display 32 lines of text and then wait for > a keypress. > > Of course, any of these settings can be changed on the fly > and temporarily using xmode if you don't cobbler the > thing. > > .Once done, make sure Hyper Terminal is set up the same > way. When done and all works, use Cobbler to save these > settings, modify and save your startup file and have fun. > > To use a login.... well, in OS9 you use(in the startup or > command prompt) "tsmon /t2&" > and you need to setup the login file in the SYS directory. > Otherwise pressing enter will log you in. The details > setting up a login file is in the manual and personally, I > think it's not necessary since no one will hack into > your coco. > Use "shell i=/t2&" instead. This simply turns > on the remote terminal to use as you wish. > Add it to the startup file and it makes it easier. > > There's more fun to be had using a remote terminal. > Once you get yours working, I've learned to do away with > the keyboard scanner, the video, the memory associated with > those and a few clock cycles to deal with the keyboard > scanning. The coco video is now a moot thing and the system > uses that memory area for it's use and it's fun to > see the screen show the data changes as the system uses it. > There's a few other things the system won't need > since the /term is just another SIO. You can do away with > GRFDRV. > Also, if you rename /t2 to /term, the settings to change > will now be called tmode instead of xmode. I think(but I > could be wrong) that the T in tmode is Terminal and X in > xmode is eXternal. Sounds good to ME! > > However, you can still do anything you want from a remote > terminal and still use the coco as normal if you keep the > /term as is. > The caveat is programs that use graphics, cursor > positioning and stuff like that won't work or won't > even run on your PC. It's text only! Line editors is the > only thing you will be able to do. > > I use some utilites from the OS9-L2 BBS to transfer files > back and forth using only Hyper Terminal as the command > center. > > > > Since you're using nitros9, there may be differences. > If you experience loss of vision or ability to concentrate, > have difficulty breathing, can't stand for more than > fifteen minutes, pains in certain areas, please consult the > gurus in Nitros9. > > George > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco From operator at coco3.com Sun Dec 28 22:11:13 2008 From: operator at coco3.com (Roger Taylor) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 21:11:13 -0600 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet In-Reply-To: <856794.23676.qm@web111204.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <49568F9C.2000701@att.net> <20081228010848.1B41020A13@qs281.pair.com> <856794.23676.qm@web111204.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20081229031205.8C1F120A13@qs281.pair.com> At 07:15 PM 12/27/2008, you wrote: >Roger, I have to say that this is awesome! Excellent work _ I have a >DISTO MC-1 with a 28-pin socket, so this is great! Just another example: your PC has a file somewhere, perhaps on the CoCo Archive DVD, called J:\cuts.bas you want your real CoCo to to run cuts.bas DRIVE 1,"C:\WORKDISK.DSK" <-- doesn't exist? a blank is created SAVEW "J:\CUTS.BAS","CUTS.BAS",A RUN "CUTS" Notice how the DRIVE and SAVEW command effectively does what imgtool.exe does. SAVEW will also grab pictures or other binary files from the web, not just HTML or text content. No LF/CR conversion is performed with the current build of CoCoNet. Too much work, too little time. I'm getting to it. HTML files definately need to be translated to CoCo LINE INPUT compatible lines so you can read them like any other OPENed ASCII file. The SAVEW command will translate the files before saving them to the desired virtual disk. So, to summarize: CoCoNet sends the CoCo remote data and files by placing them on mounted virtual disks, meaning the CoCo can process the data in the usual manner from BASIC. Remote files can be from the PC or from the web. CoCoNet consists of two enhanced Disk BASIC commands: SAVEW "remote file","cocofile.ext",type (I might change this to SAVEN (network) before releasing. DRIVE #,"remote pathname" in direct prompt mode, DRIVE will list drives 0-3, whether Real or Virtual, and mark the default drive All Disk BASIC commands work with virtual disks as well: LOAD, SAVE, DIR, DSKI$, DSKO$, DSKINI, etc. (subclause: web disks can't be written to) With these basic functions, a *LOT* can be done now from the CoCo. Append parameters to the SAVEW URL and you're able to communicate with a PHP or Perl script, send chunks of data, get an unlimited amount of return data (up to the size of a mounted virtual disk), and more. -- Roger Taylor http://www.wordofthedayonline.com From tim.stahlhut at gmail.com Sun Dec 28 22:35:56 2008 From: tim.stahlhut at gmail.com (Tim S) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 03:35:56 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Coco] More progress References: <0855FAED-B822-4BA6-8CC6-BBDCBC9B459A@tee-boy.com> Message-ID: Steven Hirsch wrote: IIRC, the cstart.r has the mainline module header. So, I would try editing the needed info in it. Tim S From operator at coco3.com Sun Dec 28 22:52:03 2008 From: operator at coco3.com (Roger Taylor) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 21:52:03 -0600 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet In-Reply-To: <20081229031205.8C1F120A13@qs281.pair.com> References: <49568F9C.2000701@att.net> <20081228010848.1B41020A13@qs281.pair.com> <856794.23676.qm@web111204.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <20081229031205.8C1F120A13@qs281.pair.com> Message-ID: <20081229035234.A71B820A13@qs281.pair.com> At 09:11 PM 12/28/2008, you wrote: >At 07:15 PM 12/27/2008, you wrote: >>Roger, I have to say that this is awesome! Excellent work _ I have >>a DISTO MC-1 with a 28-pin socket, so this is great! > > >Just another example: > >your PC has a file somewhere, perhaps on the CoCo Archive DVD, >called J:\cuts.bas >you want your real CoCo to to run cuts.bas > >DRIVE 1,"C:\WORKDISK.DSK" <-- doesn't exist? a blank is created >SAVEW "J:\CUTS.BAS","CUTS.BAS",A >RUN "CUTS" Yehaw, thanks for those occasional ASCII BASIC listings found on the web, I just ran Jim Gerries Solitarie game: He's got a lot of other neat games offered in ASCII BASIC. DRIVE 1,"MY.DSK" SAVEW "http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/jimgerrie/SOLIT.TXT","SOLIT.BAS",A RUN "SOLIT" It fired right up. To save a copy to a real disk: COPY "SOLIT.BAS:1" TO "SOLIT.BAS:0" or just: SAVE "SOLIT:0" Done -- Roger Taylor http://www.wordofthedayonline.com From lothan at newsguy.com Sun Dec 28 23:06:33 2008 From: lothan at newsguy.com (Lothan) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 23:06:33 -0500 Subject: [Coco] More progress In-Reply-To: References: <0855FAED-B822-4BA6-8CC6-BBDCBC9B459A@tee-boy.com> Message-ID: The primary psect directive is defined in cstart.a/cstart.r. This is in nitros9/3rdparty/packages/cc/sources/cstart.a: psect cstart_a,$11,$81,Edit,Stk,_cstart where _cstart is the actual entry point of the application defined in cstart.r. This is the code that splits the command line into a null-terminated array, performs various housekeeping, and eventually calls lbsr main. If I remember correctly, all other psect directives just define the psect name and stack requirement for that code file. When I attempt to compile a C source file using cc1, it generates these command lines: c.prep test.c >ctmp.3.m c.pass1 ctmp.3.m -o=ctmp.3.i c.pass2 ctmp.3.i -o=ctmp.3.a c.opt ctmp.3.a ctmp.3.o c.asm ctmp.3.o -o=ctmp.3.r c.link /dd/lib/cstart.r ctmp.3.r -o=test -l=/dd/lib/clib.l I think those last two are equivalent to: rma ctmp.3.o -o=ctmp.3.r rlink /dd/lib/cstart.r ctmp.3.r -o=test -l=/dd/lib/clib.l If I can find all the right pieces, I'll update my ancient cc1 with the newer one that calls rma and rlink instead of c.asm and c.link. I haven't done much with it lately because MESS doesn't seem to like my Logitech diNovo Edge keyboard for some reason. -------------------------------------------------- From: "Steven Hirsch" Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 9:18 PM To: "CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts" Subject: Re: [Coco] More progress > On Sun, 28 Dec 2008, Boisy Pitre wrote: > >> Steve, >> >> Change your line to: >> >> rlink -l=/dd/lib/clib.l -o=hello.r cstart.r hello.r >> >> The symbols you mentioned are located in cstart.r (the C runtime). If >> you don't have it I probably can send it to you. > > Boisy, et al, > > I was able to hack one together by taking cstart.a from the CoCo compiler > and and os9defs.a I found in the NitrOS9 distribution. I actually had to > ensure that the C library came last: > > $ rlink hello.r cstart.r -l=/dd/lib/clib.l -o=hello > > Now, on to the code generation issues. I cannot see anything in the > compiler sources that would properly set the psect pseudo-op to the > correct language/type value. The compiler has a line that hard-codes zero > for this value and the following one in the header. > > Unless I edit by hand, the linker complains: > > linker fatal: 'hello.r' contains no mainline > >>From reading the code, this is based on the fact that it's finding zero as > the language/type value. > > In a "real" situation, do you know what modifies the psect line for the > primary program? > > Steve > > (almost there now) > > > -- > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > From lothan at newsguy.com Sun Dec 28 23:16:08 2008 From: lothan at newsguy.com (Lothan) Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 23:16:08 -0500 Subject: [Coco] NitrOS9 driver for Tandy RS232 Pak? In-Reply-To: References: <04C94CD2-2CD4-45F5-8D1B-7E48C311DA0A@sasktel.net><200812281958.47244.gene.heskett@verizon.net> Message-ID: <7DEE00C203484998A6DDBBDA60197555@Crossfire> I see acia6551.asm and sc6551asm in os9l1\modules if that helps. I see a comment from Boisy indicating sc6551 was tested with Level 1 and Level 2, but I don't know anything about it beyond that. -------------------------------------------------- From: "Steven Hirsch" Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2008 9:21 PM To: "CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts" Subject: Re: [Coco] NitrOS9 driver for Tandy RS232 Pak? > On Sun, 28 Dec 2008, Gene Heskett wrote: > >>> None of the subject drivers appear to be supplied in the NitrOS9 source >>> distribution. >>> >>> Steve >> >> Sure is Steve: >> >> /opt/os9/nitros/MODULES/sacia.asm >> >> It is not level1 or level2 specific. > > Hm. I have the source tree checked out from CVS and that file is not > there. Where did you obtain the sources from? > > Steve > > > -- > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Dec 29 00:14:09 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 00:14:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Coco] More progress In-Reply-To: References: <0855FAED-B822-4BA6-8CC6-BBDCBC9B459A@tee-boy.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 28 Dec 2008, Lothan wrote: > The primary psect directive is defined in cstart.a/cstart.r. This is in > nitros9/3rdparty/packages/cc/sources/cstart.a: > > psect cstart_a,$11,$81,Edit,Stk,_cstart Wouldn't you know it... The one I grabbed (also from the NitrOS9 tree, but in a different spot) had zeroes there. But, interestingly enough, all the linker cares about is that the language/type byte not be zero. Seeing that, the linker itself ensures that the correct $11, $81 sequence ends up in the generated binary. Indeed, if you look above that line there's a define for 'Typ' of 1. By making that line psect cstart_a,Typ,0,Edit,Stk,_cstart everything just works fine. > If I can find all the right pieces, I'll update my ancient cc1 with the newer > one that calls rma and rlink instead of c.asm and c.link. I haven't done much > with it lately because MESS doesn't seem to like my Logitech diNovo Edge > keyboard for some reason. I have it working now. At least, it's generating what appears to be a proper binary. I'm calling it a day and will try running it on the CoCo tomorrow. At this point, a shell script is working fine as a compiler driver. I'll take a look at that various cc front ends once I know this is all operating as planned. Thanks for all the help, everyone! Much appreciated. Steve -- From gene.heskett at verizon.net Mon Dec 29 00:30:40 2008 From: gene.heskett at verizon.net (Gene Heskett) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 00:30:40 -0500 Subject: [Coco] NitrOS9 driver for Tandy RS232 Pak? In-Reply-To: References: <200812281958.47244.gene.heskett@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200812290030.40825.gene.heskett@verizon.net> On Sunday 28 December 2008, Steven Hirsch wrote: >On Sun, 28 Dec 2008, Gene Heskett wrote: >>> None of the subject drivers appear to be supplied in the NitrOS9 source >>> distribution. >>> >>> Steve >> >> Sure is Steve: >> >> /opt/os9/nitros/MODULES/sacia.asm >> >> It is not level1 or level2 specific. > >Hm. I have the source tree checked out from CVS and that file is not >there. Where did you obtain the sources from? > >Steve Silly me.. I had forgotten that I had un-merged an older boot disk into that tree because I wanted the descriptor for /t2. The other messages you got that said sc6551.dr are the correct drivers. They are virtually identical, but renamed. -- Cheers, Gene "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Seeing is deceiving. It's eating that's believing. -- James Thurber From robert.gault at worldnet.att.net Mon Dec 29 09:11:19 2008 From: robert.gault at worldnet.att.net (Robert Gault) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 09:11:19 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Ultimaterm problems Message-ID: <4958DA87.8090908@worldnet.att.net> Has anyone been able to receive more than 9 blocks of data in X-modem or Y-modem with Ultimaterm? I have two Ultimaterm programs one says version 4.0 the other 4.1, although I'm not sure what if any difference there is. When receiving data from Hyperterminal nul-modem, it is necessary to use X-modem on Hyperterminal and Y-modem on Ultimaterm for the system to work. Sending data from Ultimaterm to the PC works, but receiving on the Coco always fails with files of 10 or more blocks. The system hangs at the 10th block. There are no problems of any kind using OSterm under NitrOS-9 to receive files from the PC. There are no problems sending text by typing at either keyboard under Basic or NitrOS-9 at 19200 baud with an RS-232 pak. Are there any known problems with Ultimaterm? Is there a more recent version of Ultimaterm? Is there a better program for Basic to receive files, and don't mention Drivewire or CocoNet? :) From farna at att.net Mon Dec 29 09:32:08 2008 From: farna at att.net (Frank Swygert) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 09:32:08 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Future CoCo discussion (was CoCoNet) Message-ID: <4958DF68.30706@att.net> We are definitely thinking along similar lines! One thing I noticed when looking at the mini X86 compatible boards is that a lot of the smaller ones don't have much I/O on the board itself, but on expansion cards. I only looked at those with video built in (standard VGA monitor), as that would be imperative. But it might be acceptable to use a standard CoCo as a terminal to one of those, or connected via something like CoCoNet. I really like the old Ampro "Little Board", but they are still expensive (over $500... the LB is in 5.25" drive format, a full computer could be built in a single full height drive case). PC/104 types are cheaper. I really like the idea of using USB storage devices, that would be a nice addition. CoCoNet gives that access though. Which brings me back to using a mini X86 compatible in a case with a hard drive with CoCoNet. Add a USB connector to it and you could even have printer emulation built in, solving all the storage and printing problems in one piece of hardware connected to the "useless" bit-banger port. Too bad I can't program anymore! I only had a decent knowledge of DECB, and even then had to rely a lot on notes/books to struggle through a good program! The only thing I ever wrote that was really good was "The CoCo Family Recorder" (I think that's the name...) genealogy database. I cehated on that one -- I started out trying to port a DOS program, but had to re-write 80% or more of it for the CC3. I did credit the other program though, in the title screen I had "based on" that program. It was a LOT more than a conversion -- only the menus could more or less be converted, everything that really did something had to be extensively re-written. Still, I had a nice "road map" to follow, which was extremely helpful! ------------- Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2008 18:14:28 -0500 From: jdaggett at gate.net Subject: Re: [Coco] Future CoCo discussion (was CoCoNet) Frank I tend to agree with you in that there are those that want emulation and those that would like hardware. Hardware route using an FPGA is best taken using existing boards. The problem there is no one board is "prefect" for a Coco4. Ones that would be near perfect also exceed the $500 price tag. Virtex/5 boards can exceed $1000. designing one exclusively for Coco4 may not be a viable cost alternative. Any large FPGA is going to require an 8 layer board as the chip will be in BGA package. Better to use a less perfect development board that has sufficient expansion capability and add boards to the expansion ports. -- Frank Swygert Publisher, "American Motors Cars" Magazine (AMC) For all AMC enthusiasts http://farna.home.att.net/AMC.html (free download available!) From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Dec 29 09:44:01 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 09:44:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Coco] NitrOS9 driver for Tandy RS232 Pak? In-Reply-To: <200812290030.40825.gene.heskett@verizon.net> References: <200812281958.47244.gene.heskett@verizon.net> <200812290030.40825.gene.heskett@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Dec 2008, Gene Heskett wrote: > Silly me.. I had forgotten that I had un-merged an older boot disk into that > tree because I wanted the descriptor for /t2. > > The other messages you got that said sc6551.dr are the correct drivers. They > are virtually identical, but renamed. After reviewing the chain of replies, I think I'm set. Just one issue remains, though: Only one resondant mentioned the need to remove the EPROM from the Program Pak. I'd rather not damage the label to extract the case screw unless absolutely necessary. Can anyone confirm that removal of the internal EPROM is, in fact, a requirement under NitrOS9? Steve -- From robert.gault at worldnet.att.net Mon Dec 29 10:50:51 2008 From: robert.gault at worldnet.att.net (Robert Gault) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 10:50:51 -0500 Subject: [Coco] NitrOS9 driver for Tandy RS232 Pak? In-Reply-To: References: <200812281958.47244.gene.heskett@verizon.net> <200812290030.40825.gene.heskett@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4958F1DB.8060004@worldnet.att.net> Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Mon, 29 Dec 2008, Gene Heskett wrote: > >> Silly me.. I had forgotten that I had un-merged an older boot disk >> into that >> tree because I wanted the descriptor for /t2. >> >> The other messages you got that said sc6551.dr are the correct >> drivers. They >> are virtually identical, but renamed. > > After reviewing the chain of replies, I think I'm set. Just one issue > remains, though: > > Only one resondant mentioned the need to remove the EPROM from the > Program Pak. I'd rather not damage the label to extract the case screw > unless absolutely necessary. Can anyone confirm that removal of the > internal EPROM is, in fact, a requirement under NitrOS9? > > Steve > > It shouldn't be necessary but you can always try it with the ROM and see what happens. I removed the ROM from my pak because I wanted to place a SmartWatch in place of it and needed the room. There are other reasons for wanting to open the pak. There are jumpers inside the pak that tie the E clock to the CART* line and the IRQ* to the NMI*. Neither of these is desirable if the pak is to be used without the ROM. For best results using interrupts, the IRQ* should be tied to the CART* with a 4.7Kohm resistor on jumper E2 to +5v. In my pak, the 5 to 12 v unit blew, so I had to remove it and add a line to the port 12v connector. From gene.heskett at verizon.net Mon Dec 29 10:55:09 2008 From: gene.heskett at verizon.net (Gene Heskett) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 10:55:09 -0500 Subject: [Coco] NitrOS9 driver for Tandy RS232 Pak? In-Reply-To: References: <200812290030.40825.gene.heskett@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200812291055.09763.gene.heskett@verizon.net> On Monday 29 December 2008, Steven Hirsch wrote: >On Mon, 29 Dec 2008, Gene Heskett wrote: >> Silly me.. I had forgotten that I had un-merged an older boot disk into >> that tree because I wanted the descriptor for /t2. >> >> The other messages you got that said sc6551.dr are the correct drivers. >> They are virtually identical, but renamed. > >After reviewing the chain of replies, I think I'm set. Just one issue >remains, though: > >Only one respondant mentioned the need to remove the EPROM from the Program >Pak. I'd rather not damage the label to extract the case screw unless >absolutely necessary. Can anyone confirm that removal of the internal >EPROM is, in fact, a requirement under NitrOS9? > >Steve Yes. In fact I am amazed that it is still intact and in place. It may already have been removed. IIRC, it contains some sort of a broken, never was supported by anybody, autobooting vid-text terminal program. IIRC that is, please understand its been 2+ decades and many many such case openings for mine. Mine no longer has the little tin can power convertor either as it smoked itself at least 15 years ago, so mine is rewired and must live in an MPI for power purposes. It also has the piggy backed kit which I use for a serial mouse now. Sweet. I also used it for a 2nd midi port with ultimuse for a while, but ultimuse never grew a recording function, so the mouse won. -- Cheers, Gene "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it is too dark to read. From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Dec 29 10:59:34 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 10:59:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Coco] More progress In-Reply-To: References: <0855FAED-B822-4BA6-8CC6-BBDCBC9B459A@tee-boy.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Dec 2008, Steven Hirsch wrote: > I have it working now. At least, it's generating what appears to be a proper > binary. I'm calling it a day and will try running it on the CoCo tomorrow. Quick followup: It works! So, to the extent that a trivial program runs, we have an OS-9 cross-compiler that hosts on a Linux box :-). I will pull together my notes and patches and make a comprehensive posting in case anyone else wants to join the party. Steve -- From curtisboyle at sasktel.net Mon Dec 29 11:00:13 2008 From: curtisboyle at sasktel.net (L. Curtis Boyle) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 10:00:13 -0600 Subject: [Coco] Ultimaterm problems In-Reply-To: <4958DA87.8090908@worldnet.att.net> References: <4958DA87.8090908@worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: <59470C13-C53E-4384-9DD8-DE9608157DA2@sasktel.net> 4.1 was the last version released. I used to transfer much larger files than you are having with no problems, but I used to use Telix on the PC side (never liked Hyper-terminal). Ymodem on the Ultimaterm side is actually Xmodem-1K, from what I remember (Ymodem batch is the real Ymodem). Maybe try a different PC program? Sent from my iPhone L. Curtis Boyle On Dec 29, 2008, at 8:11 AM, Robert Gault wrote: > Has anyone been able to receive more than 9 blocks of data in X- > modem or Y-modem with Ultimaterm? > > I have two Ultimaterm programs one says version 4.0 the other 4.1, > although I'm not sure what if any difference there is. When > receiving data from Hyperterminal nul-modem, it is necessary to use > X-modem on Hyperterminal and Y-modem on Ultimaterm for the system to > work. > Sending data from Ultimaterm to the PC works, but receiving on the > Coco always fails with files of 10 or more blocks. The system hangs > at the 10th block. > > There are no problems of any kind using OSterm under NitrOS-9 to > receive files from the PC. > > There are no problems sending text by typing at either keyboard > under Basic or NitrOS-9 at 19200 baud with an RS-232 pak. > > Are there any known problems with Ultimaterm? Is there a more recent > version of Ultimaterm? Is there a better program for Basic to > receive files, and don't mention Drivewire or CocoNet? :) > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco From jcewy at swbell.net Mon Dec 29 11:27:34 2008 From: jcewy at swbell.net (Joel Ewy) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 10:27:34 -0600 Subject: [Coco] More progress In-Reply-To: References: <0855FAED-B822-4BA6-8CC6-BBDCBC9B459A@tee-boy.com> Message-ID: <4958FA76.108@swbell.net> Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Mon, 29 Dec 2008, Steven Hirsch wrote: > >> I have it working now. At least, it's generating what appears to be >> a proper binary. I'm calling it a day and will try running it on the >> CoCo tomorrow. > > Quick followup: It works! > > So, to the extent that a trivial program runs, we have an OS-9 > cross-compiler that hosts on a Linux box :-). > > I will pull together my notes and patches and make a comprehensive > posting in case anyone else wants to join the party. > > Steve > > > This is very cool indeed. Refresh my memory a bit. This is (K&R) C source for the Microware C compiler that was mysteriously delivered to Boisy and you have gotten it to compile under a (modern?) GCC in Linux? Or is this a different compiler than the one I bought at Radio Shack lo these many years ago? In any case, I would love to see a more comprehensive write-up. I bet it wouldn't be too hard to get it to compile on the MM/1... JCE From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Dec 29 12:01:46 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 12:01:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Coco] More progress In-Reply-To: <4958FA76.108@swbell.net> References: <0855FAED-B822-4BA6-8CC6-BBDCBC9B459A@tee-boy.com> <4958FA76.108@swbell.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Dec 2008, Joel Ewy wrote: >> So, to the extent that a trivial program runs, we have an OS-9 >> cross-compiler that hosts on a Linux box :-). >> >> I will pull together my notes and patches and make a comprehensive >> posting in case anyone else wants to join the party. > This is very cool indeed. > > Refresh my memory a bit. This is (K&R) C source for the Microware C > compiler that was mysteriously delivered to Boisy and you have gotten it > to compile under a (modern?) GCC in Linux? Or is this a different > compiler than the one I bought at Radio Shack lo these many years ago? This is the source package that Boisy had. After some minor work on the Makefiles, it compiles fine under gcc on my Ubuntu Hardy system. The library sources are mostly mechanical disassemblies of the Microware C library and they needed a small amount of fixup to remove some bogus duplicate symbols. > In any case, I would love to see a more comprehensive write-up. Will do. Hopefully within a day or so. At this point, I have no bothered with any of the compiler front-end programs since a shell script does just fine. Final problem will be to get the owner of Malted Media to move it into an accessible area for downloads. Boisy pinged him, but there's been no action as of yet. Steve -- From gene.heskett at verizon.net Mon Dec 29 12:29:36 2008 From: gene.heskett at verizon.net (Gene Heskett) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 12:29:36 -0500 Subject: [Coco] More progress In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200812291229.36528.gene.heskett@verizon.net> On Monday 29 December 2008, Steven Hirsch wrote: >On Mon, 29 Dec 2008, Steven Hirsch wrote: >> I have it working now. At least, it's generating what appears to be a >> proper binary. I'm calling it a day and will try running it on the CoCo >> tomorrow. > >Quick followup: It works! > >So, to the extent that a trivial program runs, we have an OS-9 >cross-compiler that hosts on a Linux box :-). > >I will pull together my notes and patches and make a comprehensive posting >in case anyone else wants to join the party. > >Steve Great news Steven. But I do have a question in re the c.prep you used as a model. The MicroWare version has some loose ends that Matthew tried to clean up when he was in college by writing a new one, and I grabbed that when the prof gave him an A for it, and fixed up it enough that it could build a working rzsz-3.24 and on thru 3.36, the last version I uploaded. The original c.prep will not output code that can be built, or will crash if it does, if the total size of the src files exceeds about 11k. My last pass at a c.prep, called cprep19, handled the nominally 36k rzsz srcs just fine. The original c.prep ran out of buffer space silently and forgot variable names when it ran out, which appeared to be happening if its output was inspected. -- Cheers, Gene "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Oliver's Law: Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it. From bookworm at cavenet.com Mon Dec 29 12:31:16 2008 From: bookworm at cavenet.com (BookWorm) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 17:31:16 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Coco] Ultimaterm problems References: <4958DA87.8090908@worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: > Has anyone been able to receive more than 9 blocks of data in X-modem or > Y-modem with Ultimaterm? I've always used X-modem with DeskMate Telecomm at 9600 bps or Windows Terminal at 56k on the pee sea, and once I got them to talk to each other it worked fine. Make shure the handshaking is the same on both; I don't remember what Windows uses, but Tandy's default is always Xon/Xoff. This was my biggest problem. I also had trouble with timeouts. Make shure your settings aren't too low; give both computers plenty of time (60 seconds should be enough) to wait for the other. From bookworm at cavenet.com Mon Dec 29 13:05:48 2008 From: bookworm at cavenet.com (BookWorm) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 18:05:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [Coco] Why do we need a CoCo 4? (Long irrelevant rant) Message-ID: Who needs a CoCo 4/5/6/257.3/etc.? For years people have been talking about the CoCo 4. In the late '80's a survey in the MOTD asked what kind of CoCo you had and if it was a 4 where did you get it. I still don't know what was considered a CoCo 4 at the time. I thought the MM/1 was supposed to be the CoCo 4, but first, if there was a CoCo 4 in the '80's, wouldn't the MM/1 be the CoCo 5? That would make all the current speculation about a CoCo 6 or 7. Since the MM/1 has a 68k not a 6x09, it's not compatable, so how can it be a CoCo at all? Who cares? No offence intended, but I don't. I'm very much more interested in getting more out of the CoCo 3. It exists. As far as I can tell no actual CoCo 4-8 does, and it doesn't look like one ever will. Wouldn't all this daydreaming and speculative engineering be better spent on real products that do exist or that are worth the trouble of making? Consider all the software available for OS-9. I thought Home publisher was the only desktop publisher available. Then I downloaded Mr. Nukem's archive and found Newspaper-09! Ever heard of it? What other CoCo 3 products have many of us never heard of? There are several patches for Dynacalc on RTSI. One is called the "puppo" patch or something like that. What is it? I've read rumors about patches for Home Publisher, including some for the 6309. Does one of these make it use extentions instead of prefixes? What other patches and upgrades are out there that most of us could use but few have heard of? What about Level 3?! The CoCo 3 is still advancing. The CoCoNet project proves that. I don't see why we even need a CoCo 12 or whatever it' not up to now. Let's be realistic. We've got the best 8 bit hardware ever made. FHL and Microware got complaints about OSk being slow compared to the 6809 version, and that was back in the CoCo *2* era! How are we supposed to improve on it now? A new GIME chip might be practical. So would a web browser. If TCP/IP is to much, skip it for now, and just do HTML. With CoCoNet, we can get online through a $#%& pee sea, so why not take it a step further and display a page? Or use DOS Lynx, like a shell account in the old days? I don't mean to start a flamewar or something. I'm not trying to be irritable or ruin anyone's idea. But I *have* a CoCo 3, and I plan on doing a lot more with it, more than anyone has done so far. I don't think a CoCo 63 1/2 is a bad idea, just not a relevant one. It's not really going to happen. Lets try advancing what we have instead. From jet.pack at ymail.com Mon Dec 29 13:34:33 2008 From: jet.pack at ymail.com (John Eric) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 10:34:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Coco] Why do we need a CoCo 4? (Long irrelevant rant) References: Message-ID: <150300.49473.qm@web111213.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> It's not so much of a need as it is a want. I just want one. I think Gary's CC3FPGA may eventually be just that. Too bad I can't figure out how to compile the thing after having bought a Digilent Spartan board w/1000kgate. We all have our opinions, I guess. I just miss the simpler times when programming was simple and fun and not so much of a chore.... JE ________________________________ From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Dec 29 13:49:31 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 13:49:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Coco] More progress In-Reply-To: <200812291229.36528.gene.heskett@verizon.net> References: <200812291229.36528.gene.heskett@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Dec 2008, Gene Heskett wrote: > Great news Steven. But I do have a question in re the c.prep you used as a > model. The MicroWare version has some loose ends that Matthew tried to clean > up when he was in college by writing a new one, and I grabbed that when the > prof gave him an A for it, and fixed up it enough that it could build a > working rzsz-3.24 and on thru 3.36, the last version I uploaded. > > The original c.prep will not output code that can be built, or will crash if > it does, if the total size of the src files exceeds about 11k. My last pass > at a c.prep, called cprep19, handled the nominally 36k rzsz srcs just fine. > The original c.prep ran out of buffer space silently and forgot variable > names when it ran out, which appeared to be happening if its output was > inspected. Well, we're in luck, then! The sources came with 'cprep19' :-). Steve -- From da3m0n_slay3r at yahoo.com Mon Dec 29 13:51:23 2008 From: da3m0n_slay3r at yahoo.com (Bill Barnes) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 10:51:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Coco] Why do we need a CoCo 4? (Long irrelevant rant) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <410627.64909.qm@web31108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Only prob with skipping TCP/IP it is that is a lower layer and is needed for HTML, FTP, Gopher, Telnet, etc. If you use that "Pee-Cee" to handle that, and use the Coco as a terminal., fine, if you want the fancy gfx of HTTP, umm a CoCo3 would work as long as the gfx details were lowered... It would still be r-e-a-l-l-y s--l--o--w to render it all. -Later! ?-WB-??? -- BABIC Computer Consulting. --- On Mon, 12/29/08, BookWorm wrote: > From: BookWorm > Subject: [Coco] Why do we need a CoCo 4? (Long irrelevant rant) > To: coco at maltedmedia.com > Date: Monday, December 29, 2008, 12:05 PM > Who needs a CoCo 4/5/6/257.3/etc.? > ... > A new GIME chip might be practical. So would a web browser. > If TCP/IP is to > much, skip it for now, and just do HTML. With CoCoNet, we > can get online > through a $#%& pee sea, so why not take it a step > further and display a page? > Or use DOS Lynx, like a shell account in the old days? > From da3m0n_slay3r at yahoo.com Mon Dec 29 14:00:49 2008 From: da3m0n_slay3r at yahoo.com (Bill Barnes) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 11:00:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Coco] Why do we need a CoCo 4? (Long irrelevant rant) In-Reply-To: <150300.49473.qm@web111213.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <514283.86520.qm@web31106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> The PLUS to the fpga idea is, we can extend the 6809/6309 core, if need be to include real 16-bit and even possibly 32-bit operations by creating op-codes that the 6809/6309 haven't used or reserved... we could have a 681609 or 631609 on our hands that way. Possibly using the 6309 trick and have a third mode (6809,6309,631609). Ah how complex things have become... and what a mess some of the APIs are... Libraries help, but the chore is that some of those libraries have as messed up functions as the APIs they were created to simplify. -Later! ?-WB-??? -- BABIC Computer Consulting. --- On Mon, 12/29/08, John Eric wrote: > From: John Eric > Subject: Re: [Coco] Why do we need a CoCo 4? (Long irrelevant rant) > To: "CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts" > Date: Monday, December 29, 2008, 12:34 PM > It's not so much of a need as it is a want. I just want > one. I think Gary's CC3FPGA may eventually be just that. > Too bad I can't figure out how to compile the thing > after having bought a Digilent Spartan board w/1000kgate. We > all have our opinions, I guess. I just miss the simpler > times when programming was simple and fun and not so much of > a chore.... JE From glenvdb at hotmail.com Mon Dec 29 14:11:37 2008 From: glenvdb at hotmail.com (Glen VanDenBiggelaar) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 12:11:37 -0700 Subject: [Coco] C640's I sent you In-Reply-To: <8f0d43810812291040ud6f2247x2c9e3877dc725b4e@mail.gmail.com> References: <8f0d43810812291040ud6f2247x2c9e3877dc725b4e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: You will have to talk to Dave, I never saw any of what you sent him other than the first one with the broken corner that I fixed. Just having a quiet time at home, but I only had Christmas and yesterday off work. All of it is up on my Blog. -Glen Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 13:40:46 -0500 From: bigdogtrucker at gmail.com To: glenvdb at hotmail.com Subject: C640's I sent you Glen, just out of curiosity did I send you any extra power supplies or optical drives for the Latitude C640's I shipped up to you? I hope you are having a good holiday with boxing day, Christmas and the New Years. Christopher Kouttron From glenvdb at hotmail.com Mon Dec 29 14:15:18 2008 From: glenvdb at hotmail.com (Glen VanDenBiggelaar) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 12:15:18 -0700 Subject: [Coco] (no subject) Message-ID: Not sure why that last e-mail went out to the list, darn active scripting on hotmail. Have a happy holiday everyone and please ignore last message. From jet.pack at ymail.com Mon Dec 29 15:20:02 2008 From: jet.pack at ymail.com (John Eric) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 12:20:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Coco] Why do we need a CoCo 4? (Long irrelevant rant) References: <514283.86520.qm@web31106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <196580.84426.qm@web111211.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> sort of like what was done with the 65c816 a 16-bit compatible with the 8-bit 65c02? ________________________________ From: Bill Barnes To: CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts Sent: Monday, December 29, 2008 1:00:49 PM Subject: Re: [Coco] Why do we need a CoCo 4? (Long irrelevant rant) The PLUS to the fpga idea is, we can extend the 6809/6309 core, if need be to include real 16-bit and even possibly 32-bit operations by creating op-codes that the 6809/6309 haven't used or reserved... we could have a 681609 or 631609 on our hands that way. Possibly using the 6309 trick and have a third mode (6809,6309,631609). Ah how complex things have become... and what a mess some of the APIs are... Libraries help, but the chore is that some of those libraries have as messed up functions as the APIs they were created to simplify. -Later! -WB- -- BABIC Computer Consulting. --- On Mon, 12/29/08, John Eric wrote: > From: John Eric > Subject: Re: [Coco] Why do we need a CoCo 4? (Long irrelevant rant) > To: "CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts" > Date: Monday, December 29, 2008, 12:34 PM > It's not so much of a need as it is a want. I just want > one. I think Gary's CC3FPGA may eventually be just that. > Too bad I can't figure out how to compile the thing > after having bought a Digilent Spartan board w/1000kgate. We > all have our opinions, I guess. I just miss the simpler > times when programming was simple and fun and not so much of > a chore.... JE -- Coco mailing list Coco at maltedmedia.com http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco From gene.heskett at verizon.net Mon Dec 29 16:54:36 2008 From: gene.heskett at verizon.net (Gene Heskett) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 16:54:36 -0500 Subject: [Coco] More progress In-Reply-To: References: <200812291229.36528.gene.heskett@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200812291654.36632.gene.heskett@verizon.net> On Monday 29 December 2008, Steven Hirsch wrote: >On Mon, 29 Dec 2008, Gene Heskett wrote: >> Great news Steven. But I do have a question in re the c.prep you used as >> a model. The MicroWare version has some loose ends that Matthew tried to >> clean up when he was in college by writing a new one, and I grabbed that >> when the prof gave him an A for it, and fixed up it enough that it could >> build a working rzsz-3.24 and on thru 3.36, the last version I uploaded. >> >> The original c.prep will not output code that can be built, or will crash >> if it does, if the total size of the src files exceeds about 11k. My last >> pass at a c.prep, called cprep19, handled the nominally 36k rzsz srcs just >> fine. The original c.prep ran out of buffer space silently and forgot >> variable names when it ran out, which appeared to be happening if its >> output was inspected. > >Well, we're in luck, then! The sources came with 'cprep19' :-). > >Steve Great Steve. Now, I won't claim that is the latest and greatest code I ever whittled on, so if you stumble onto something that needs more help, jump right in, you won't hurt my feelings a bit. A new knife is often a little sharper, at least until it get some wear on it, and there is now 74 years of 'wear' on this one. Thanks, and have a Happy New Year. -- Cheers, Gene "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) ...there can be no public or private virtue unless the foundation of action is the practice of truth. - George Jacob Holyoake From cyberpunk at prtc.net Mon Dec 29 17:09:54 2008 From: cyberpunk at prtc.net (RJLCyberPunk) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 18:09:54 -0400 Subject: [Coco] Why do we need a CoCo 4? (Long irrelevant rant) References: Message-ID: Dude, even the CoCo 3 could not run all previous CoCo software ok, believe me I owned one way beck then. And that is something that is being addressed in the virtual CoCo 4 project but furthermore, you ask why advance to another machine? Take a good look around! The CoCo 3 as good as it was is nothing but a piece of absolutely obsolete hardware by today's standards. Now you maybe happy with being stuck permanently in the '80's but most of us thankfully are not and want our beloved CoCo to move to it's rightful place in the 21st century. We want a new machine that is totally compatible with all previous CoCo software plus has the capacity to be a present day marketable machine. The end... From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Dec 29 17:50:15 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 17:50:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Coco] NitrOS9 driver for Tandy RS232 Pak? In-Reply-To: <200812291055.09763.gene.heskett@verizon.net> References: <200812290030.40825.gene.heskett@verizon.net> <200812291055.09763.gene.heskett@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Dec 2008, Gene Heskett wrote: >> Only one respondant mentioned the need to remove the EPROM from the Program >> Pak. I'd rather not damage the label to extract the case screw unless >> absolutely necessary. Can anyone confirm that removal of the internal >> EPROM is, in fact, a requirement under NitrOS9? > Yes. In fact I am amazed that it is still intact and in place. It may > already have been removed. IIRC, it contains some sort of a broken, never > was supported by anybody, autobooting vid-text terminal program. IIRC that > is, please understand its been 2+ decades and many many such case openings > for mine. I'm not seeing an EPROM in this unit. Holding the PCB with the DB25F connector facing me, there's a 6551 ACIA chip on the right and a 24-pin chip on the left labeled 'SCM95046P. Is that a masked ROM carrying the firmware? Would like to be sure before warming up the desoldering station! > Mine no longer has the little tin can power convertor either as it > smoked itself at least 15 years ago, so mine is rewired and must live in an > MPI for power purposes. It also has the piggy backed kit which I use for a > serial mouse now. Sweet. I also used it for a 2nd midi port with ultimuse > for a while, but ultimuse never grew a recording function, so the mouse won. What piggybacked unit is this? Steve -- From flexser at fiu.edu Mon Dec 29 18:14:04 2008 From: flexser at fiu.edu (Art Flexser) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 18:14:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Coco] Ultimaterm problems In-Reply-To: <4958DA87.8090908@worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: This sounds similar to a problem I encountered many years ago with Colorcom-E's Xmodem. After much investigation, I traced it to the fact that the disk controller was halting the CPU due to an accumulation of data to be stored to disk. I cured it by patching the terminal program to insert a short pause after each block was stored on the disk, allowing the disk controller to catch up with the CPU. You might try seeing if the same problem occurs if you save the data to ramdisk instead of physical disk; if not, you've found the culprit. Art On Mon, 29 Dec 2008, Robert Gault wrote: > Has anyone been able to receive more than 9 blocks of data in X-modem or > Y-modem with Ultimaterm? > > I have two Ultimaterm programs one says version 4.0 the other 4.1, > although I'm not sure what if any difference there is. When receiving > data from Hyperterminal nul-modem, it is necessary to use X-modem on > Hyperterminal and Y-modem on Ultimaterm for the system to work. > Sending data from Ultimaterm to the PC works, but receiving on the Coco > always fails with files of 10 or more blocks. The system hangs at the > 10th block. > > There are no problems of any kind using OSterm under NitrOS-9 to receive > files from the PC. > > There are no problems sending text by typing at either keyboard under > Basic or NitrOS-9 at 19200 baud with an RS-232 pak. > > Are there any known problems with Ultimaterm? Is there a more recent > version of Ultimaterm? Is there a better program for Basic to receive > files, and don't mention Drivewire or CocoNet? :) > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > From t.fadden at cox.net Mon Dec 29 18:04:30 2008 From: t.fadden at cox.net (Tim Fadden) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 16:04:30 -0700 Subject: [Coco] NitrOS9 driver for Tandy RS232 Pak? In-Reply-To: References: <200812290030.40825.gene.heskett@verizon.net> <200812291055.09763.gene.heskett@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4959577E.903@cox.net> Steve, Why are you in such a big hurry to start ripping out chips? I have an rs232 pack and have been using it since day one with OS9 connected to modems, and direct connect to PC,s with no issues whatsoever. I have never OPENED the case. Make sure they are not talking about the modem-pack that RS also sold. There is a hack for making it a normal RS232 port. If it works, why hack it? Tim Fadden Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Mon, 29 Dec 2008, Gene Heskett wrote: > >>> Only one respondant mentioned the need to remove the EPROM from the >>> Program >>> Pak. I'd rather not damage the label to extract the case screw unless >>> absolutely necessary. Can anyone confirm that removal of the internal >>> EPROM is, in fact, a requirement under NitrOS9? > >> Yes. In fact I am amazed that it is still intact and in place. It may >> already have been removed. IIRC, it contains some sort of a broken, >> never >> was supported by anybody, autobooting vid-text terminal program. >> IIRC that >> is, please understand its been 2+ decades and many many such case >> openings >> for mine. > > I'm not seeing an EPROM in this unit. Holding the PCB with the DB25F > connector facing me, there's a 6551 ACIA chip on the right and a > 24-pin chip on the left labeled 'SCM95046P. Is that a masked ROM > carrying the firmware? > > Would like to be sure before warming up the desoldering station! > >> Mine no longer has the little tin can power convertor either as it >> smoked itself at least 15 years ago, so mine is rewired and must live >> in an >> MPI for power purposes. It also has the piggy backed kit which I use >> for a >> serial mouse now. Sweet. I also used it for a 2nd midi port with >> ultimuse >> for a while, but ultimuse never grew a recording function, so the >> mouse won. > > What piggybacked unit is this? > > Steve > > From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Dec 29 18:45:55 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 18:45:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Coco] NitrOS9 driver for Tandy RS232 Pak? In-Reply-To: <4959577E.903@cox.net> References: <200812290030.40825.gene.heskett@verizon.net> <200812291055.09763.gene.heskett@verizon.net> <4959577E.903@cox.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Dec 2008, Tim Fadden wrote: > Steve, > > Why are you in such a big hurry to start ripping out chips? I have an rs232 > pack and have been using it since day one with OS9 connected to modems, and > direct connect to PC,s with no issues whatsoever. I have never OPENED the > case. Make sure they are not talking about the modem-pack that RS also sold. > There is a hack for making it a normal RS232 port. > > If it works, why hack it? I'm not in a big hurry, but when the overwhelming advise is "take it out", I try to listen. If I jumped the gun, so be it. It wasn't mint to start with and now it has a 1/4" hole in the label . Steve -- From da3m0n_slay3r at yahoo.com Mon Dec 29 18:55:11 2008 From: da3m0n_slay3r at yahoo.com (Bill Barnes) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 15:55:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Coco] Why do we need a CoCo 4? (Long irrelevant rant) In-Reply-To: <196580.84426.qm@web111211.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <269417.94259.qm@web31101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Yeah, like that. Wasn't thinking directly of it when I wrote that, but... that is a good real world example. (I knew of it before, so it probably fueled the thought subconciously.) -Later! ?-WB-??? -- BABIC Computer Consulting. --- On Mon, 12/29/08, John Eric wrote: > From: John Eric > Subject: Re: [Coco] Why do we need a CoCo 4? (Long irrelevant rant) > To: "CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts" > Date: Monday, December 29, 2008, 2:20 PM > sort of like what was done with the 65c816 a 16-bit > compatible with the 8-bit 65c02? > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Bill Barnes > To: CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts > > Sent: Monday, December 29, 2008 1:00:49 PM > Subject: Re: [Coco] Why do we need a CoCo 4? (Long > irrelevant rant) > > The PLUS to the fpga idea is, we can extend the 6809/6309 > core, if need be to include real 16-bit and even possibly > 32-bit operations by creating op-codes that the 6809/6309 > haven't used or reserved... we could have a 681609 or > 631609 on our hands that way. Possibly using the 6309 trick > and have a third mode (6809,6309,631609). > > Ah how complex things have become... and what a mess some > of the APIs are... Libraries help, but the chore is that > some of those libraries have as messed up functions as the > APIs they were created to simplify. > > -Later! -WB- -- BABIC Computer Consulting. > > > --- On Mon, 12/29/08, John Eric > wrote: > > > From: John Eric > > Subject: Re: [Coco] Why do we need a CoCo 4? (Long > irrelevant rant) > > To: "CoCoList for Color Computer > Enthusiasts" > > Date: Monday, December 29, 2008, 12:34 PM > > It's not so much of a need as it is a want. I just > want > > one. I think Gary's CC3FPGA may eventually be just > that. > > Too bad I can't figure out how to compile the > thing > > after having bought a Digilent Spartan board > w/1000kgate. We > > all have our opinions, I guess. I just miss the > simpler > > times when programming was simple and fun and not so > much of > > a chore.... JE > > > > > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > > > > > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco From jdaggett at gate.net Mon Dec 29 19:00:40 2008 From: jdaggett at gate.net (jdaggett at gate.net) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 19:00:40 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Why do we need a CoCo 4? (Long irrelevant rant) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49591E58.16718.195673@jdaggett.gate.net> On 29 Dec 2008 at 18:05, BookWorm wrote: > Who cares? > > No offence intended, but I don't. I'm very much more interested in > getting more out of the CoCo 3. It exists. As far as I can tell no > actual CoCo 4-8 does, and it doesn't look like one ever will. Wouldn't > all this daydreaming and speculative engineering be better spent on > real products that do exist or that are worth the trouble of making? No offense taken. Not is totallity does a Coco4 exist. Or at least in hardware. Emmulators by far do a better job of what a Coco4 could be. Mark at Cloud9 has done a lot towards doing products that retro fit into the current Coco3. In that aspect your concern over effort is being addressed. >From my point, setting up a Coco3 with disk drives and MPI is not an option. As much as I would love to, I do not have the room at this time to do so. So where my ideas lead me towards a more compact Coco. Whether you call it a 3/4/5/.... is immaterial. My basic requirements would be small size and use a modern LCD monitor, keyboard, mouse and storage. I tend to lean towards USB drives and nonvolitile USB memory. In using a LCD monitor, I envision a base screen of 800x600 8bit color. Then DECB can operate out of a window of appropriate size depending on the setting of the HRES and CRES bits. There are other things that can be done. Remember ideas stimulate research which in turn become a reality. Albeit at times rather slowly. james From jdaggett at gate.net Mon Dec 29 19:28:03 2008 From: jdaggett at gate.net (jdaggett at gate.net) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 19:28:03 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Why do we need a CoCo 4? (Long irrelevant rant) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <495924C3.17393.326761@jdaggett.gate.net> On 29 Dec 2008 at 18:05, BookWorm wrote: > A new GIME chip might be practical. So would a web browser. If TCP/IP > is to much, skip it for now, and just do HTML. With CoCoNet, we can > get online through a $#%& pee sea, so why not take it a step further > and display a page? Or use DOS Lynx, like a shell account in the old > days? A new GIME chip is farther along that you might think. In fact about 60% coded. Several of the hurdles that I have struggled with over the past 6 months have now beed resolved and design is moving slowly forward. I finally came to the realization that SDRAM will be needed over SRAM and DRAM. for size constraints mostly. I have finally decided on a desktop screen resolution of 800x600 at 256 colors. What I am coding will probably be better suited for OS9/NitrOS9 than DECB. I have concepts in mind and need to get time to finish codeing and synthesis to get to a point where I can be more comfortable of further discusions. Let's say that I would love to move the video section of the GIME chip into a small GPU. That would take burden off of DECB as well as OS9. An usefull web browser would require better video than what a Coco has. Also more memory either physical or virtual. That work is in progress. Many of the niceties would also possibly mean the backwards compatability with DECB is in peril. TCP/IP is best done via a peripheral processor. Even an 6809 in an FPGA at 25MHz is hard pressed to do al lot of graphics and computation along with TCP/IP. There are several micros out there that a TCP/IP stack can be written for and a Coco can just use a parallel interface of some sort to transfer data. When one works on this as a hobby and at rather low priority, then progress is slow. I hope to free more of my time in the next 30 days to finish to a point of saying I have something to really offer. james From gene.heskett at verizon.net Mon Dec 29 19:36:26 2008 From: gene.heskett at verizon.net (Gene Heskett) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 19:36:26 -0500 Subject: [Coco] NitrOS9 driver for Tandy RS232 Pak? In-Reply-To: References: <200812291055.09763.gene.heskett@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200812291936.26257.gene.heskett@verizon.net> On Monday 29 December 2008, Steven Hirsch wrote: >On Mon, 29 Dec 2008, Gene Heskett wrote: >>> Only one respondant mentioned the need to remove the EPROM from the >>> Program Pak. I'd rather not damage the label to extract the case screw >>> unless absolutely necessary. Can anyone confirm that removal of the >>> internal EPROM is, in fact, a requirement under NitrOS9? >> >> Yes. In fact I am amazed that it is still intact and in place. It may >> already have been removed. IIRC, it contains some sort of a broken, never >> was supported by anybody, autobooting vid-text terminal program. IIRC >> that is, please understand its been 2+ decades and many many such case >> openings for mine. > >I'm not seeing an EPROM in this unit. Holding the PCB with the DB25F >connector facing me, there's a 6551 ACIA chip on the right and a 24-pin >chip on the left labeled 'SCM95046P. Is that a masked ROM carrying the >firmware? > It could be, google for it. The acia (6551) only needs a pair of MC14xx chips for level translation, its 74ls** adress decodeingaddress decoding, and a crystal. Another 24 pin chip would have to be that rom. >Would like to be sure before warming up the desoldering station! > >> Mine no longer has the little tin can power convertor either as it >> smoked itself at least 15 years ago, so mine is rewired and must live in >> an MPI for power purposes. It also has the piggy backed kit which I use >> for a serial mouse now. Sweet. I also used it for a 2nd midi port with >> ultimuse for a while, but ultimuse never grew a recording function, so the >> mouse won. > >What piggybacked unit is this? That is where you piggy back another 6551 on top of the existing one, but its chip select logic enables it in the next 4 byte wide address block, usually by grabbing an adjacent pin on the address decoder. The MC14xx chips are also stacked. I brought out a db9 connector on the side for it, so the seriel mouse plugs right in. Its a fairly commonly done method to make a dual serial port device out of it, and I believe there is probably a howto on rtsi, but I've NDI what its filename would be. Can someone bail me out that has done this more recent than I?, since its been probably 20 years and memory fades from lack of refresh at my age. About all I can recall ATM is the 2 or 3 feet of wire wrapping wire it took to do all that. It may even be in one of the Rainbows. >Steve -- Cheers, Gene "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) "I have to convince you, or at least snow you ..." -- Prof. Romas Aleliunas, CS 435 From tjseagrove at writeme.com Mon Dec 29 19:44:54 2008 From: tjseagrove at writeme.com (Tom Seagrove) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 19:44:54 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Why do we need a CoCo 4? (Long irrelevant rant) In-Reply-To: <495924C3.17393.326761@jdaggett.gate.net> References: <495924C3.17393.326761@jdaggett.gate.net> Message-ID: <000901c96a17$d5a0d850$80e288f0$@com> Great work on your project and I look forward to what you are producing for the future of our beloved little machine. Great things in computing started with people tinkering in garages and bedrooms... Tom -----Original Message----- From: coco-bounces at maltedmedia.com [mailto:coco-bounces at maltedmedia.com] On Behalf Of jdaggett at gate.net Sent: Monday, December 29, 2008 7:28 PM To: CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts Subject: Re: [Coco] Why do we need a CoCo 4? (Long irrelevant rant) On 29 Dec 2008 at 18:05, BookWorm wrote: > A new GIME chip might be practical. So would a web browser. If TCP/IP > is to much, skip it for now, and just do HTML. With CoCoNet, we can > get online through a $#%& pee sea, so why not take it a step further > and display a page? Or use DOS Lynx, like a shell account in the old > days? A new GIME chip is farther along that you might think. In fact about 60% coded. Several of the hurdles that I have struggled with over the past 6 months have now beed resolved and design is moving slowly forward. I finally came to the realization that SDRAM will be needed over SRAM and DRAM. for size constraints mostly. I have finally decided on a desktop screen resolution of 800x600 at 256 colors. What I am coding will probably be better suited for OS9/NitrOS9 than DECB. I have concepts in mind and need to get time to finish codeing and synthesis to get to a point where I can be more comfortable of further discusions. Let's say that I would love to move the video section of the GIME chip into a small GPU. That would take burden off of DECB as well as OS9. An usefull web browser would require better video than what a Coco has. Also more memory either physical or virtual. That work is in progress. Many of the niceties would also possibly mean the backwards compatability with DECB is in peril. TCP/IP is best done via a peripheral processor. Even an 6809 in an FPGA at 25MHz is hard pressed to do al lot of graphics and computation along with TCP/IP. There are several micros out there that a TCP/IP stack can be written for and a Coco can just use a parallel interface of some sort to transfer data. When one works on this as a hobby and at rather low priority, then progress is slow. I hope to free more of my time in the next 30 days to finish to a point of saying I have something to really offer. james -- Coco mailing list Coco at maltedmedia.com http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.1/1868 - Release Date: 12/29/2008 10:48 AM From operator at coco3.com Mon Dec 29 19:48:42 2008 From: operator at coco3.com (Roger Taylor) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 18:48:42 -0600 Subject: [Coco] Ultimaterm problems In-Reply-To: <4958DA87.8090908@worldnet.att.net> References: <4958DA87.8090908@worldnet.att.net> Message-ID: <20081230004922.B05A020A13@qs281.pair.com> At 08:11 AM 12/29/2008, you wrote: >Has anyone been able to receive more than 9 blocks of data in >X-modem or Y-modem with Ultimaterm? > >I have two Ultimaterm programs one says version 4.0 the other 4.1, >although I'm not sure what if any difference there is. When >receiving data from Hyperterminal nul-modem, it is necessary to use >X-modem on Hyperterminal and Y-modem on Ultimaterm for the system to work. >Sending data from Ultimaterm to the PC works, but receiving on the >Coco always fails with files of 10 or more blocks. The system hangs >at the 10th block. > >There are no problems of any kind using OSterm under NitrOS-9 to >receive files from the PC. > >There are no problems sending text by typing at either keyboard >under Basic or NitrOS-9 at 19200 baud with an RS-232 pak. > >Are there any known problems with Ultimaterm? Is there a more recent >version of Ultimaterm? Is there a better program for Basic to >receive files, and don't mention Drivewire or CocoNet? :) cocotape.exe :) This console command I wrote can take a PC file and play it as a CoCo tape audio stream as BASIC, ML, data, etc. gapped or not. The cassette cable black plug goes in the Audio Out jack of the PC and the CoCo can CLOAD or CLOADM from the PC. -- Roger Taylor http://www.wordofthedayonline.com From jdaggett at gate.net Mon Dec 29 19:59:57 2008 From: jdaggett at gate.net (jdaggett at gate.net) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 19:59:57 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Why do we need a CoCo 4? (Long irrelevant rant) In-Reply-To: <150300.49473.qm@web111213.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: , <150300.49473.qm@web111213.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49592C3D.3525.4F9E24@jdaggett.gate.net> On 29 Dec 2008 at 10:34, John Eric wrote: > It's not so much of a need as it is a want. I just want one. I think > Gary's CC3FPGA may eventually be just that. Too bad I can't figure out > how to compile the thing after having bought a Digilent Spartan board > w/1000kgate. We all have our opinions, I guess. I just miss the > simpler times when programming was simple and fun and not so much of a > chore.... JE > You will need XLINX Webpack ISE. Any version greater than 8 I believe will work. If you have XP with SP2 or SP3 then I recommend Webpack 9.2 SP3. By the way which Digilent board did you get? Gary's code is written for the Digilent Spartan 3 board. It has on board 1Meg of Static RAM. Also has a 1 Million gate Spartan 3. If different then you will have to modify his Verilog code to match your device. I started looking into rewriting his Verilog code into VHDL so that it would not be a mixed mode. That is not a real problem now that ISE better handles mixed codes(VHDL/Verilog) His code is a good first attempt at a Coco3 in an FPGA. The CPU09 VHDL code is from John Kent and he has an updated version that corrects a few minor bugs. The overall speed of the CPU section is about 25 MHz. james From jdaggett at gate.net Mon Dec 29 20:37:31 2008 From: jdaggett at gate.net (jdaggett at gate.net) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 20:37:31 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Why do we need a CoCo 4? (Long irrelevant rant) In-Reply-To: <514283.86520.qm@web31106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <150300.49473.qm@web111213.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, <514283.86520.qm@web31106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4959350B.26940.720092@jdaggett.gate.net> On 29 Dec 2008 at 11:00, Bill Barnes wrote: > The PLUS to the fpga idea is, we can extend the 6809/6309 core, if > need be to include real 16-bit and even possibly 32-bit operations by > creating op-codes that the 6809/6309 haven't used or reserved... we > could have a 681609 or 631609 on our hands that way. Possibly using > the 6309 trick and have a third mode (6809,6309,631609). Yes one could expand the 6809 core. As far as I know there is no 6309 IP core in existance, yet. What I have coded is still early in design. The register stack and the ALU are rather easy to code. Doing the rest and achieving decent speed is a bit more taxing. Right now the ALU has a max of 10 nS combinatorial delay from input to output. Now to get the rest to move that fast. Yes I have ideas of what could be done to improve the 6809/6309 core. One would be to do what RISC controllers do, pipeline fetches. That is doable in an FPGA. Multimode processor is doable but would take up a lot of resources on the chip if there is significant differences. That now takes the computer out of the realm of hobby sized FPGAs and what could be done in a QFP package. Very large FPGAs , >500K gates, are all BGA package. That requires 6/8 layer PCB design. One alternative is to code the processor in such a way that when you synthesize it you can tell it which processor you want. This is done with one core that is either a Z80, 8080, fast Z80 or the GameBoy processor. That core runs at 35MHz. I also have a core that is selectable for a 6502, 65C02, or 65C816 by two pins. To do an enhanced opcode is really a nightmare in getting consesus on what to add and what not to add. Personally I would like to see more instructions like that in the HC11/HC12. BRCLR and BRSET are nice instruction. The IDIV and FDIV are more fucntional than what the 6309 has. That also requires someone to rewrite assemblers and any compilers for new instructions. That is out of my realm of expertise. I am a hardware dude that can do some programming. james From jdaggett at gate.net Mon Dec 29 20:41:32 2008 From: jdaggett at gate.net (jdaggett at gate.net) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 20:41:32 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Why do we need a CoCo 4? (Long irrelevant rant) In-Reply-To: <196580.84426.qm@web111211.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <514283.86520.qm@web31106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, <196580.84426.qm@web111211.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <495935FC.30224.75B03C@jdaggett.gate.net> On 29 Dec 2008 at 12:20, John Eric wrote: > sort of like what was done with the 65c816 a 16-bit compatible with > the 8-bit 65c02? > > Probably would be better to do something like what the HC11/HC12 approach. Then again if the HC12 had a U register then this thread would be mute. A Coco4 would better be done with an HC12. james From jdaggett at gate.net Mon Dec 29 20:46:14 2008 From: jdaggett at gate.net (jdaggett at gate.net) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 20:46:14 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Why do we need a CoCo 4? (Long irrelevant rant) In-Reply-To: <000901c96a17$d5a0d850$80e288f0$@com> References: , <495924C3.17393.326761@jdaggett.gate.net>, <000901c96a17$d5a0d850$80e288f0$@com> Message-ID: <49593716.29519.79FB99@jdaggett.gate.net> On 29 Dec 2008 at 19:44, Tom Seagrove wrote: > Great work on your project and I look forward to what you are > producing for the future of our beloved little machine. Great things > in computing started with people tinkering in garages and bedrooms... > > Tom > It is one of three IPs that I have been working on. A real problem is what to dicide on to do. Sometimes my ideas get bigger than they should be. try to run before I walk scenario. Though in recent weeks I have pushed thorugh the what ifs and started focussing on getting something initially working. Then add on and improve. james From operator at coco3.com Mon Dec 29 23:13:09 2008 From: operator at coco3.com (Roger Taylor) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 22:13:09 -0600 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet status In-Reply-To: <5d802cd0812062029l7a2e73c2h476adb33654f4cfd@mail.gmail.com > References: <20081207030833.5788920A15@qs281.pair.com> <5d802cd0812062029l7a2e73c2h476adb33654f4cfd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081230041347.771CB20A13@qs281.pair.com> At 10:29 PM 12/6/2008, you wrote: >Roger, > >Have you tested this with a CoCo 1? Recent tests I've done have led >me to the conclusion that the CoCo 1 hardware is not capable of >transmitting 57600 bps through the bit banger port, although it can >receive data at that speed. My guess is that the opamp used for the >level translation to +/- 12 volts can't operate that fast. You will >probably have to lower the transmission speed or specify a CoCo 2 as >the minimum requirement. > >Darren I confirmed that the PC is not receiving correctly at 57600 bps from both of my CoCo 1 systems. You can see junk bytes being received instead, but it looks like the same number of bytes, just not the data that was sent. 115200 bps obviously didn't work, either. Another thing I noticed. When you turn a CoCo on, it "transmits" a phantom character to the remote PC due to how BASIC sets up the PIA chips. At some point a start bit is seen by the PC which leads to a byte being framed. It could be that a break or partial break is transmitted. I haven't looked further into it. -- Roger Taylor http://www.wordofthedayonline.com From robert.gault at worldnet.att.net Mon Dec 29 23:21:53 2008 From: robert.gault at worldnet.att.net (Robert Gault) Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 23:21:53 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Ultimaterm problems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4959A1E1.7090903@worldnet.att.net> Art Flexser wrote: > This sounds similar to a problem I encountered many years ago with Colorcom-E's > Xmodem. After much investigation, I traced it to the fact that the disk > controller was halting the CPU due to an accumulation of data to be stored to > disk. I cured it by patching the terminal program to insert a short pause after > each block was stored on the disk, allowing the disk controller to catch up with > the CPU. You might try seeing if the same problem occurs if you save the data > to ramdisk instead of physical disk; if not, you've found the culprit. > > Art Well the problem occurs whether Ultimaterm saves to a real or RAM disk. The problem is there using an alternative program, Tera Term Pro, instead of Hyperterminal. Since the problem of not getting past the 9th data block does not occur under NitrOS-9 running OSTerm but only with Ultimaterm under Disk Basic, I have to believe there is a problem with Ultimaterm. After all, the hardware and PC software is identical. The only difference is the software on the Coco. Also I've tried this at 2400 instead of 19200 baud and that does not make any difference. The problem does not exist going from the Coco to the PC but only going from the PC to the Coco. That suggests it is not the transfer protocol in use by Ultimaterm but rather some fluke regards file size. From carlossantiago at austin.rr.com Tue Dec 30 01:30:17 2008 From: carlossantiago at austin.rr.com (Carlos Santiago) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 00:30:17 -0600 Subject: [Coco] Coco4..Who needs it? I do. Message-ID: <1C1E2A5C-93D4-459B-9FA1-3878906ED623@austin.rr.com> I believe that it is time for a more advanced Coco. The coco3 is great, but there are some features and capabilities that could be added. For example, if a new Coco was developed with a newer, faster, or different processor. It could still run all the legacy software in an emulated mode. Furthermore, the new coco could be integrated into an FPGA. This would allow some really cool features to be added. Here are some ideas: 1. Higher resolution graphics with more colors and support for VGA monitors. 2. Network connections (ethernet and Wi Fi). 3. Additional I/O such as USB. 4. A PS/2 or USB keyboard with key mappings for the Coco. 5. New peripherals including a USB mouse, digitizer pad, USB keys and hard drives. 6. The multipack interface could be integrated into the system along with the floppy controller. I would like to see an effort similar to the work that Steve Bjork is working on but with a real goal of have working hardware in the next 3 to 6 months. This may be a tough goal, but with the right people involved, I think it maybe possible. Consider this: A motherboard that can be installed into a PC chassis that includes the following: A high performance Processor (hardware or emulated in an FPGA) Standard memory DIMMs with SDRAM (DDR1 or DDR2). An FPGA with the enhanced graphics and I/O capability. -Support for all standard Coco1,2,3 graphics modes. -Hires graphics (320x200, 640 x 480, 800x600, etc) with 256 or more colors. -USB controller and hub. -IDE interface. -Multipack emulation. -Standard Coco 6bit sound. -Enhanced Sound controller with multiple channels. Slots for the ROM packs and/or additional I/O cards. VGA output . CoCo joystick interfaces. USB interfaces. IDE interface for a hard disk. User selectable setup for system to boot directly into disk basic or a different OS from the hard disk. PC keyboard and mouse support with Coco Keyboard mappings. Carlos Santiago From jdaggett at gate.net Tue Dec 30 08:14:04 2008 From: jdaggett at gate.net (jdaggett at gate.net) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 08:14:04 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Coco4..Who needs it? I do. In-Reply-To: <1C1E2A5C-93D4-459B-9FA1-3878906ED623@austin.rr.com> References: <1C1E2A5C-93D4-459B-9FA1-3878906ED623@austin.rr.com> Message-ID: <4959D84C.5066.2DAF7E@jdaggett.gate.net> On 30 Dec 2008 at 0:30, Carlos Santiago wrote: > I believe that it is time for a more advanced Coco. The coco3 is > great, but there are some features and capabilities that could be > added. > > For example, if a new Coco was developed with a newer, faster, or > different processor. It could still run all the legacy software in an > emulated mode. Furthermore, the new coco could be integrated into an > FPGA. This would allow some really cool features to be added. Here are > some ideas: > > 1. Higher resolution graphics with more colors and support for VGA > monitors. > Being worked on. My vision is to have a desktop with 800x600 resolution and 256 colors. RS Basic will appear in a window whose size will be determined by the values of the HRES and CRES bits. This keeps some backward compatabiliy. > 2. Network connections (ethernet and Wi Fi). > Best done with a peripheral processor in my opinion. Why burden the 6809 down with the TCP/IP work? > 3. Additional I/O such as USB. > While a USB core can be include into the FPGA SoC, it would be better again to be an peripheral device and memory map it. USB chips are cheap and can be memory mapped or serial connected to. > 4. A PS/2 or USB keyboard with key mappings for the Coco. > done. > 5. New peripherals including a USB mouse, digitizer pad, USB keys and > hard drives. > mouse, keyboard, and storage is in progress. > 6. The multipack interface could be integrated into the system along > with the floppy controller. > Doable. I do have a core for a WD1772 floppy controller (not mine) that has been modified to allow access to HD Floppies. It does synthesize. > > I would like to see an effort similar to the work that Steve Bjork > is working on but with a real goal of have working hardware in the > next 3 to 6 months. This may be a tough goal, but with the right > people involved, I think it maybe possible. > One year is more likely depending on how many people are involved. > Consider this: > > A motherboard that can be installed into a PC chassis that includes > the following: > If FPGA based board you are looking at an 8 layer board. Look for about $120 a piece with silk screen and solder mask in small quantities(10) and around 40 sq inches in size. Besides the FPGA will most likely have to be in BGA package with at least 256 pins. While I have experience soldering BGA packages without usign IR assited reflow, that is limited to 100 pin devices max. 256 or even 480 pins is a huge task to do by other means than IR assited reflow. > A high performance Processor (hardware or emulated in an FPGA) > In FPGA it would not be emmulated. > Standard memory DIMMs with SDRAM (DDR1 or DDR2). > If you are doing a 6809/6309 processor in an FPGA you can get about a ten fold speed increase from the ASIC version. Even with the speed increase, unless you increase the Program Counter to say 24 bits, you have to do page memory. 8MB or 16MB SDRAM would be sufficient. DDR* SDRAM would almost dictate that a Xilinx Spartan 3 or better device be used or the Altera equivalent. My reccomendation is to use a FPGA development board. There are several out there that range in price tags. > An FPGA with the enhanced graphics and I/O capability. > -Support for all standard Coco1,2,3 graphics modes. > -Hires graphics (320x200, 640 x 480, 800x600, etc) with 256 or more > colors. > -USB controller and hub. > -IDE interface. > -Multipack emulation. > -Standard Coco 6bit sound. > -Enhanced Sound controller with multiple channels. > > Slots for the ROM packs and/or additional I/O cards. > VGA output . > CoCo joystick interfaces. > USB interfaces. > IDE interface for a hard disk. > User selectable setup for system to boot directly into disk basic or a > different OS from the hard disk. PC keyboard and mouse support with > Coco Keyboard mappings. > > Carlos Santiago > Much of what you list is doable. Forming a team to achieve this is tougher. This is not a 3-6 month project even with a team of 8 to 10 people. james From os9dude at gmail.com Tue Dec 30 09:03:02 2008 From: os9dude at gmail.com (Rogelio Perea) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 09:03:02 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Why do we need a CoCo 4? (Long irrelevant rant) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5631e580812300603y27f8b27i391067e3dc9ae8cb@mail.gmail.com> After all the excitement (if any) on the early 90s as The Rainbow shrunk in size and announced the successors for the CoCo 3 (The Tomcat and the MM/1 mainly), I really don't expect these conversations to go beyond the academic exercise phase... that is beyond postings by very knowledgeable and tech savvy people we have on the list. For me the CoCo 3 is the epitome of that line of computers, as it is the C128 on that other line ;-) My own CoCo 3 setup still has a lot to be souped up with, I am yet to try adding a hard disk and other hardware goodies (finances permitting next year) so I'm in for a ride on that 6809 8 bit based wonder. For anything more in computing terms I will turn to my Ubuntu Linux based eeePC (pretty slick to run the Mocha on-line CoCo emulator there) and yes even the Windoze XP rig... a CoCo 4 in my future? - I don't think so, even if the thing came ever to be a reality I believe the CoCo flavor would be stripped out, to turn it into an evolved product stemming from that humble VDG & GIME humble root, pretty much like what the Amiga was to the original C64 and C128 line up... shared their name but was a whole different animal in the end. I'll follow the discussions on a "CoCo 4" though... there is something to learn within all that is said back and forth. Still, maybe it would be honest to avoid calling the new machine a CoCo. It will not be. -=[ Rogelio ]=- On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 1:05 PM, BookWorm wrote: > Who needs a CoCo 4/5/6/257.3/etc.? > > For years people have been talking about the CoCo 4. In the late '80's a > survey > in the MOTD asked what kind of CoCo you had and if it was a 4 where did you > get > it. I still don't know what was considered a CoCo 4 at the time. I thought > the > MM/1 was supposed to be the CoCo 4, but first, if there was a CoCo 4 in > the '80's, wouldn't the MM/1 be the CoCo 5? That would make all the current > speculation about a CoCo 6 or 7. Since the MM/1 has a 68k not a 6x09, it's > not > compatable, so how can it be a CoCo at all? > > Who cares?..... .... ... .. . > From robert.gault at worldnet.att.net Tue Dec 30 09:03:15 2008 From: robert.gault at worldnet.att.net (Robert Gault) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 09:03:15 -0500 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet status In-Reply-To: <20081230041347.771CB20A13@qs281.pair.com> References: <20081207030833.5788920A15@qs281.pair.com> <5d802cd0812062029l7a2e73c2h476adb33654f4cfd@mail.gmail.com> <20081230041347.771CB20A13@qs281.pair.com> Message-ID: <495A2A23.5040801@worldnet.att.net> Roger Taylor wrote: > At 10:29 PM 12/6/2008, you wrote: > >> Roger, >> >> Have you tested this with a CoCo 1? Recent tests I've done have led >> me to the conclusion that the CoCo 1 hardware is not capable of >> transmitting 57600 bps through the bit banger port, although it can >> receive data at that speed. My guess is that the opamp used for the >> level translation to +/- 12 volts can't operate that fast. You will >> probably have to lower the transmission speed or specify a CoCo 2 as >> the minimum requirement. >> >> Darren > > > I confirmed that the PC is not receiving correctly at 57600 bps from > both of my CoCo 1 systems. You can see junk bytes being received > instead, but it looks like the same number of bytes, just not the data > that was sent. 115200 bps obviously didn't work, either. > > Another thing I noticed. When you turn a CoCo on, it "transmits" a > phantom character to the remote PC due to how BASIC sets up the PIA > chips. At some point a start bit is seen by the PC which leads to a > byte being framed. It could be that a break or partial break is > transmitted. I haven't looked further into it. > > The opamp used is the MC741C listed as having a slew rate of 0.5 V/us. I'm not sure what this means in terms of baud but the 741 is not adequate for high quality music. The chip in the Coco3 is custom but seems to be a TTL inverter. If typical TTL it should handle about 35 MHz. From paulej at arid.us Tue Dec 30 10:59:25 2008 From: paulej at arid.us (Paul E. Jones) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 10:59:25 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Coco4..Who needs it? I do. In-Reply-To: <1C1E2A5C-93D4-459B-9FA1-3878906ED623@austin.rr.com> References: <1C1E2A5C-93D4-459B-9FA1-3878906ED623@austin.rr.com> Message-ID: <00b301c96a97$968d5320$c3a7f960$@us> Carlos, et al, I've struggled with this question since I saw it proposed some time ago. On the one hand, I'd love to have the kind of machine that enabled be to tinker, learn, and have fun like I did years ago. On the other hand, the reason that the CoCo was so appealing then was that a PC was impossible for me to afford and, well, that's not the case now. I have a few PCs now, some with Windows and others with Linux. All of these things listed below are already available on the PC (or a Mac), though #6 is definitely a CoCo carry-over. I'd like to ask: Why would folks want another CoCo? Do folks want something more akin to the Amiga? Or do folks just want a better PC than today's PC? Do folks want to create a computing platform where people can learn about computers? Do folks want something compatible with the CoCo or a new kind of computer that "captures the imagination"? As a parent of a teenager who'd love to get his son involved in computers, I'll tell you the one thing that I really miss: the ability to simply create software. I loved how the CoCo started in BASIC mode: the machine was designed for programming from the start. I can't get my son interested in any form of programming. All of the languages seem to complex, in his eyes. If I gave him a CoCo, he would not be interested: he could not share his creations with anybody else. I believe the ability to share creations is important. What I think would be really cool is to have a "coco4.exe" on Windows that would load a "CoCo Environment" and, when one double-clicked on "whatever.coco", it would execute the program with the CoCo environment -- much like Java programs. But, the CoCo environment would be one that is similar, but far better than what the CoCo 3 could offer. It would be an environment where one could create software easily, yet have the power to be useful commercially. Perhaps the window might open with a familiar flashing cursor and a basic mode. The graphics could be constrained to a default, fixed window size, but it would be reasonable to allow the programmer to utilize all available graphics up to and including "full screen". Perhaps some legacy CoCo screen modes could be provided, too. I guess I am less interested in the hardware aspects as I am the programmable environment-- but that's because I'm a software guy. That said, there might be a business opportunity here in creating hardware specially designed to work in the "CoCo Environment", much like hardware that plugged into the MPI. What would that hardware be? I don't know, but I have no doubt that folks here would come up with all sorts of ideas. What I'm definitely less interested in is having yet another physical PC-type device occupying desk space in my house. Whatever I put in my son's room would also have to be something he can use for school; the CoCo environment would only be a plus to his learning more about computers. I think most people would be that way. So, as ugly as it might seem, I think building something that expands on the existing Windows PC would be the best way to go and would be the only commercially viable way to go. Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: coco-bounces at maltedmedia.com [mailto:coco- > bounces at maltedmedia.com] On Behalf Of Carlos Santiago > Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 1:30 AM > To: coco at maltedmedia.com > Subject: [Coco] Coco4..Who needs it? I do. > > I believe that it is time for a more advanced Coco. The coco3 is > great, but there are some features and capabilities that could be > added. > > For example, if a new Coco was developed with a newer, faster, or > different processor. It could still run all the legacy software in an > emulated mode. Furthermore, the new coco could be integrated into an > FPGA. This would allow some really cool features to be added. Here are > some ideas: > > 1. Higher resolution graphics with more colors and support for VGA > monitors. > > 2. Network connections (ethernet and Wi Fi). > > 3. Additional I/O such as USB. > > 4. A PS/2 or USB keyboard with key mappings for the Coco. > > 5. New peripherals including a USB mouse, digitizer pad, USB keys and > hard drives. > > 6. The multipack interface could be integrated into the system along > with the floppy controller. > > > > I would like to see an effort similar to the work that Steve Bjork > is working on but with a real goal of have working hardware in the > next 3 to 6 months. This may be a tough goal, but with the right > people involved, I think it maybe possible. > > Consider this: > > A motherboard that can be installed into a PC chassis that includes > the following: > > A high performance Processor (hardware or emulated in an FPGA) > > Standard memory DIMMs with SDRAM (DDR1 or DDR2). > > An FPGA with the enhanced graphics and I/O capability. > -Support for all standard Coco1,2,3 graphics modes. > -Hires graphics (320x200, 640 x 480, 800x600, etc) with 256 or > more > colors. > -USB controller and hub. > -IDE interface. > -Multipack emulation. > -Standard Coco 6bit sound. > -Enhanced Sound controller with multiple channels. > > Slots for the ROM packs and/or additional I/O cards. > VGA output . > CoCo joystick interfaces. > USB interfaces. > IDE interface for a hard disk. > User selectable setup for system to boot directly into disk basic or a > different OS from the hard disk. > PC keyboard and mouse support with Coco Keyboard mappings. > > Carlos Santiago > > > > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > From mechacoco at gmail.com Tue Dec 30 11:38:34 2008 From: mechacoco at gmail.com (Darren A) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 09:38:34 -0700 Subject: [Coco] CoCoNet status In-Reply-To: <20081230041347.771CB20A13@qs281.pair.com> References: <20081207030833.5788920A15@qs281.pair.com> <5d802cd0812062029l7a2e73c2h476adb33654f4cfd@mail.gmail.com> <20081230041347.771CB20A13@qs281.pair.com> Message-ID: <5d802cd0812300838s5c5d8920j33d160b45c3d1c34@mail.gmail.com> On 12/29/08, Roger Taylor wrote: > > > > Another thing I noticed. When you turn a CoCo on, it "transmits" a > phantom character to the remote PC due to how BASIC sets up the PIA > chips. At some point a start bit is seen by the PC which leads to a > byte being framed. It could be that a break or partial break is > transmitted. I haven't looked further into it. > Upon Reset, all the PIA data lines act as Inputs. The bit-banger output will likely go low at that time and the PC will see this as a start bit (it could be considered a BREAK if it remains low long enough). Color Basic (CoCo 1 and 2) sets the bit banger output to the normal MARKing state fairly soon after reset (at address $A04F). The CoCo 3 doesn't setup the output until after the initialization code has been moved to RAM. Darren From skwirl42 at gmail.com Tue Dec 30 12:07:30 2008 From: skwirl42 at gmail.com (James Dessart) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 13:07:30 -0400 Subject: [Coco] Computer learning tools (was: Coco4..Who needs it? I do.) Message-ID: <4c56cbd30812300907q4e635b73ucce766a2b6c3a6c9@mail.gmail.com> As far as simple programming goes, I had a lot of fun with Hypercard on my Mac, after "graduating" from my CoCo. A more modern equivalent, again on the Mac, would be AppleScript Studio. Now, I'm not saying everyone should go out and buy a Mac, but I'm sure there must be similar solutions on the PC. I'd suggest VisualBasic, but afaic, that's like polluting a child's mind. :) There are a number of learning environments out there. There's one set up for Squeak that provides kids with a nice framework for learning programming. Don't remember the name, but it should be easy to find. As for hardware, there are so many different programming microcontrollers out there now, many with USB interfaces, that I'm sure someone will eventually make one that's as easy to use as the CoCo was for hardware hacking. Maybe Arduino is that, I haven't looked into it too deeply. Actually, just looked into Arduino. It uses Processing, which may indeed also be a good programming learning tool. Haven't looked much into it either, but it's intended for visual arts folk, meaning it'd probably be fine for kids as well. Now, do we need to call this set of software and hardware a CoCo 4? no. The CoCo will always be what it is right now, culminating in the CoCo 3. I don't think a product based on the CoCo name would be all that successful, and certainly not successful enough to go to the expense of full R&D for a product. -- James Dessart From operator at coco3.com Tue Dec 30 13:14:02 2008 From: operator at coco3.com (Roger Taylor) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 12:14:02 -0600 Subject: [Coco] PIA setup In-Reply-To: <5d802cd0812300838s5c5d8920j33d160b45c3d1c34@mail.gmail.com > References: <20081207030833.5788920A15@qs281.pair.com> <5d802cd0812062029l7a2e73c2h476adb33654f4cfd@mail.gmail.com> <20081230041347.771CB20A13@qs281.pair.com> <5d802cd0812300838s5c5d8920j33d160b45c3d1c34@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081230181445.2BB8A20A15@qs281.pair.com> At 10:38 AM 12/30/2008, you wrote: >On 12/29/08, Roger Taylor wrote: > > > > > > > > Another thing I noticed. When you turn a CoCo on, it "transmits" a > > phantom character to the remote PC due to how BASIC sets up the PIA > > chips. At some point a start bit is seen by the PC which leads to a > > byte being framed. It could be that a break or partial break is > > transmitted. I haven't looked further into it. > > > >Upon Reset, all the PIA data lines act as Inputs. The bit-banger >output will likely go low at that time and the PC will see this as a >start bit (it could be considered a BREAK if it remains low long >enough). Color Basic (CoCo 1 and 2) sets the bit banger output to the >normal MARKing state fairly soon after reset (at address $A04F). The >CoCo 3 doesn't setup the output until after the initialization code >has been moved to RAM. > >Darren I wonder if by the $4F'th byte into BASIC if the PC would consider it to be a break signal on the line. Is it 3 character lengths to be considered a break, 4, ? Can't recall the duration, but I'm sure my Belkin USB to Serial adaptor has it's own idea of what it should be. I'd like for CoCoNet to have a signal break command telling the server it needs to get out of whatever loop it's in and back to the main loop. -- Roger Taylor http://www.wordofthedayonline.com From operator at coco3.com Tue Dec 30 15:02:46 2008 From: operator at coco3.com (Roger Taylor) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 14:02:46 -0600 Subject: [Coco] Disto SC add-ons Message-ID: <20081230200329.33EED20A13@qs281.pair.com> Does anyone know how in the heck the addon with the video chip is supposed to output video or how it works? The board also has a clock chip which seems to be running even though the board is old.. you can PEEK from BASIC and see the clock registers changing. I do have the register specs on the clock. The video chip is a CRT9128. There's an 11mhz crystal, HM6116LP-2 chip, 13x2 header, and 2x2 header. I see no other ID marks on the board other than the word "Disto" and two color stickers on the back labeled "M" and "T". I see nothing in the Disto SC docs explaining the details of this board, just a mention that it's one of the add-ons. -- Roger Taylor http://www.wordofthedayonline.com From mechacoco at gmail.com Tue Dec 30 15:21:03 2008 From: mechacoco at gmail.com (Darren A) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 13:21:03 -0700 Subject: [Coco] PIA setup In-Reply-To: <20081230181445.2BB8A20A15@qs281.pair.com> References: <20081207030833.5788920A15@qs281.pair.com> <5d802cd0812062029l7a2e73c2h476adb33654f4cfd@mail.gmail.com> <20081230041347.771CB20A13@qs281.pair.com> <5d802cd0812300838s5c5d8920j33d160b45c3d1c34@mail.gmail.com> <20081230181445.2BB8A20A15@qs281.pair.com> Message-ID: <5d802cd0812301221x9c9739nb445599ac3b5fc9e@mail.gmail.com> On 12/30/08, Roger Taylor wrote: > > I wonder if by the $4F'th byte into BASIC if the PC would consider it > to be a break signal on the line. Is it 3 character lengths to be > considered a break, 4, ? Can't recall the duration, but I'm sure my > Belkin USB to Serial adaptor has it's own idea of what it should > be. I'd like for CoCoNet to have a signal break command telling the > server it needs to get out of whatever loop it's in and back to the main > loop. > > > -- > Roger Taylor > --- If the bit banger output goes low as soon as you press the CoCo's Reset button then a BREAK duration will probably elapse before the button is released. Darren From da3m0n_slay3r at yahoo.com Tue Dec 30 16:45:41 2008 From: da3m0n_slay3r at yahoo.com (Bill Barnes) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 13:45:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Coco] Why do we need a CoCo 4? (Long irrelevant rant) In-Reply-To: <4959350B.26940.720092@jdaggett.gate.net> Message-ID: <539452.46647.qm@web31106.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 12/29/08, jdaggett at gate.net wrote: > From: jdaggett at gate.net > Subject: Re: [Coco] Why do we need a CoCo 4? (Long irrelevant rant) > To: "CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts" > Date: Monday, December 29, 2008, 7:37 PM > ... > Yes one could expand the 6809 core. As far as I know there > is no 6309 IP > core in existance, yet. What I have coded is still early in > design. The ... I'm sure someone will probably work on it if the interest is there. > > Yes I have ideas of what could be done to improve the > 6809/6309 core. > One would be to do what RISC controllers do, pipeline > fetches. That is > doable in an FPGA. > Solid Ideas. ... > > To do an enhanced opcode is really a nightmare in getting > consesus on > what to add and what not to add. Personally I would like to > see more > instructions like that in the HC11/HC12. BRCLR and BRSET > are nice > instruction. The IDIV and FDIV are more fucntional than > what the 6309 > has. That also requires someone to rewrite assemblers and > any compilers > for new instructions. That is out of my realm of expertise. > I am a hardware > dude that can do some programming. > > james > Agreed, someone will need to write the compilers and modify code as needed to take advantage of such changes. I haven't ever written a compiler so I'd be lost taking on such a project. Also all the additions would need to be finalized as to what codes, and what happens when they're encountered before compilers could be written. Of course then, that leaves the debugging of the new functions that haven't previously existed. From benbleau at gmail.com Tue Dec 30 17:35:02 2008 From: benbleau at gmail.com (Benoit Bleau) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 17:35:02 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Disto SC add-ons In-Reply-To: <20081230200329.33EED20A13@qs281.pair.com> References: <20081230200329.33EED20A13@qs281.pair.com> Message-ID: <495AA216.8050303@gmail.com> Roger Taylor wrote: > Does anyone know how in the heck the addon with the video chip is > supposed to output video or how it works? The board also has a clock > chip which seems to be running even though the board is old.. you can > PEEK from BASIC and see the clock registers changing. I do have the > register specs on the clock. The video chip is a CRT9128. There's an > 11mhz crystal, HM6116LP-2 chip, 13x2 header, and 2x2 header. I see no > other ID marks on the board other than the word "Disto" and two color > stickers on the back labeled "M" and "T". > > I see nothing in the Disto SC docs explaining the details of this > board, just a mention that it's one of the add-ons. if I recall, I had one of these boards 15 years ago? and it worked only with OS9. It required a driver to be installed. I returned it to CRC computers, because it had a horrible wobble in the image. -Benoit From gene.heskett at verizon.net Tue Dec 30 17:44:46 2008 From: gene.heskett at verizon.net (Gene Heskett) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 17:44:46 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Disto SC add-ons In-Reply-To: <495AA216.8050303@gmail.com> References: <20081230200329.33EED20A13@qs281.pair.com> <495AA216.8050303@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200812301744.46071.gene.heskett@verizon.net> On Tuesday 30 December 2008, Benoit Bleau wrote: >Roger Taylor wrote: >> Does anyone know how in the heck the addon with the video chip is >> supposed to output video or how it works? The board also has a clock >> chip which seems to be running even though the board is old.. you can >> PEEK from BASIC and see the clock registers changing. I do have the >> register specs on the clock. The video chip is a CRT9128. There's an >> 11mhz crystal, HM6116LP-2 chip, 13x2 header, and 2x2 header. I see no >> other ID marks on the board other than the word "Disto" and two color >> stickers on the back labeled "M" and "T". >> >> I see nothing in the Disto SC docs explaining the details of this >> board, just a mention that it's one of the add-ons. > >if I recall, I had one of these boards 15 years ago? and it worked only >with OS9. It required a driver to be installed. >I returned it to CRC computers, because it had a horrible wobble in the >image. Humm, were you purchance operating the monitor sitting adjacent to the regular color monitor? The leakage of magnetic fields from the deflection yoke of the color monitor will make a Maggy PC-80 13" wobble very noticeably. I put a sheet of steel between them which helped quite a bit. >-Benoit > >-- >Coco mailing list >Coco at maltedmedia.com >http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco -- Cheers, Gene "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." -Ed Howdershelt (Author) THEGODDESSOFTHENETHASTWISTINGFINGERSANDHERVOICEISLIKEAJAVELININTHENIGHTDUDE From benbleau at gmail.com Tue Dec 30 17:47:28 2008 From: benbleau at gmail.com (Benoit Bleau) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 17:47:28 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Disto SC add-ons In-Reply-To: <200812301744.46071.gene.heskett@verizon.net> References: <20081230200329.33EED20A13@qs281.pair.com> <495AA216.8050303@gmail.com> <200812301744.46071.gene.heskett@verizon.net> Message-ID: <495AA500.1010603@gmail.com> Gene Heskett wrote: > On Tuesday 30 December 2008, Benoit Bleau wrote: > >> Roger Taylor wrote: >> >>> Does anyone know how in the heck the addon with the video chip is >>> supposed to output video or how it works? The board also has a clock >>> chip which seems to be running even though the board is old.. you can >>> PEEK from BASIC and see the clock registers changing. I do have the >>> register specs on the clock. The video chip is a CRT9128. There's an >>> 11mhz crystal, HM6116LP-2 chip, 13x2 header, and 2x2 header. I see no >>> other ID marks on the board other than the word "Disto" and two color >>> stickers on the back labeled "M" and "T". >>> >>> I see nothing in the Disto SC docs explaining the details of this >>> board, just a mention that it's one of the add-ons. >>> >> if I recall, I had one of these boards 15 years ago? and it worked only >> with OS9. It required a driver to be installed. >> I returned it to CRC computers, because it had a horrible wobble in the >> image. >> > > Humm, were you purchance operating the monitor sitting adjacent to the regular > color monitor? The leakage of magnetic fields from the deflection yoke of > the color monitor will make a Maggy PC-80 13" wobble very noticeably. I put > a sheet of steel between them which helped quite a bit. > > >> -Benoit >> >> -- >> Coco mailing list >> Coco at maltedmedia.com >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco >> > > > > Nope, I had a long cable going to a color TV, which was about 5 feet away. When I brought it back to CRC, they couldn't get it to work any better, so they refunded me. -Benoit From farna at att.net Tue Dec 30 18:02:26 2008 From: farna at att.net (Frank Swygert) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 18:02:26 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Why do we need a CoCo 4? (Long irrelevant rant) Message-ID: <495AA882.2070706@att.net> Am I reading this right? Could a more or less CoCo compatible machine be made with a HC12? Something that would be at least 75% compatible? I know that a lot of compatibility issues with the CoCo 3 are in the GIME chip, but you're working that issue! Of course I'd like to see something backward compatible with DECB, but I think it should be acceptable if CC1/2 compatibility suffered or was gone (such as support for PMODE screens) IF the space were needed for graphics enhancements or coding could be seriously simplified. There would be some software "loss" without those old graphics modes, but I personally think that would be an acceptable compromise -- can't be many "popular" programs out there that don't have some newer CC3 replacement. Some of the kids games, most likely, would be lost. DECB could even be patched if necessary. As long as CC3 specific games ran I don't think many would object. ------------ Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 20:41:32 -0500 From: jdaggett at gate.net Probably would be better to do something like what the HC11/HC12 approach. Then again if the HC12 had a U register then this thread would be mute. A Coco4 would better be done with an HC12. -- Frank Swygert Publisher, "American Motors Cars" Magazine (AMC) For all AMC enthusiasts http://farna.home.att.net/AMC.html (free download available!) From shadow at shadowgard.com Tue Dec 30 18:29:15 2008 From: shadow at shadowgard.com (shadow at shadowgard.com) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 15:29:15 -0800 Subject: [Coco] [Color Computer] Selling old CoCo stuff on ebay Message-ID: <495A3E4B.1322.42A18F5A@shadow.shadowgard.com> Digging stuff out of storage, and at the moment, I'm listing a bunch of Proghram paks and one of the flip top storage boxes RS sold for them. Nothing too exciting: Tennis Color Logo Gomoku/Renju Castle Guard Robot Battle ATOM Color Scripsit Handyman EDTASM+ Videotex Audio Spectrum Analyzer I've also got the Aplliance and Light Controller pack, but I'm waiting until I dig the two controlers out before selling it. Future stuff will include the Deluxe RS-232 pack, a couple of gray case Cocos (one with 32k, the other not working and included as spare parts). A multipack interface, a TP-10 printer and a CGP-220 printer -- Leonard Erickson (aka shadow) shadow at shadowgard dot com From flexser at fiu.edu Tue Dec 30 18:45:45 2008 From: flexser at fiu.edu (Art Flexser) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 18:45:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Coco] Disto SC add-ons In-Reply-To: <495AA216.8050303@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Dec 2008, Benoit Bleau wrote: > Roger Taylor wrote: > > Does anyone know how in the heck the addon with the video chip is > > supposed to output video or how it works? The board also has a clock > > chip which seems to be running even though the board is old.. you can > > PEEK from BASIC and see the clock registers changing. I do have the > > register specs on the clock. The video chip is a CRT9128. There's an > > 11mhz crystal, HM6116LP-2 chip, 13x2 header, and 2x2 header. I see no > > other ID marks on the board other than the word "Disto" and two color > > stickers on the back labeled "M" and "T". > > > > I see nothing in the Disto SC docs explaining the details of this > > board, just a mention that it's one of the add-ons. > if I recall, I had one of these boards 15 years ago? and it worked only > with OS9. It required a driver to be installed. > I returned it to CRC computers, because it had a horrible wobble in the > image. I'm pretty certain that it also worked under Basic, and came with a driver for Basic, along with a manual that explained its registers. Art From ed_s_429 at yahoo.com Tue Dec 30 19:06:24 2008 From: ed_s_429 at yahoo.com (Ed Siler) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 16:06:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Coco] [Color Computer] Selling old CoCo stuff on ebay In-Reply-To: <495A3E4B.1322.42A18F5A@shadow.shadowgard.com> Message-ID: <453919.25584.qm@web53711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Leonard, I'll be watching with interest!? I've also got a ton of CoCo stuff & am planning to dig it out soon. ?No real idea what all is there, but there's several coco's, MPI's, a Dragon 64 (in box!), drives, software, printers, etc. ?But the best should be the full set of mags - HCC, CCM, & Rainbow plus Undercolor & others.? Will post a list when possible. Ed --- On Tue, 12/30/08, shadow at shadowgard.com wrote: From: shadow at shadowgard.com Subject: [Color Computer] Selling old CoCo stuff on ebay To: ColorComputer at yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, December 30, 2008, 5:29 PM Digging stuff out of storage, and at the moment, I'm listing a bunch of Proghram paks and one of the flip top storage boxes RS sold for them. Nothing too exciting: Tennis Color Logo Gomoku/Renju Castle Guard Robot Battle ATOM Color Scripsit Handyman EDTASM+ Videotex Audio Spectrum Analyzer I've also got the Aplliance and Light Controller pack, but I'm waiting until I dig the two controlers out before selling it. Future stuff will include the Deluxe RS-232 pack, a couple of gray case Cocos (one with 32k, the other not working and included as spare parts). A multipack interface, a TP-10 printer and a CGP-220 printer -- Leonard Erickson (aka shadow) shadow at shadowgard dot com From shadow at shadowgard.com Tue Dec 30 20:54:48 2008 From: shadow at shadowgard.com (shadow at shadowgard.com) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 17:54:48 -0800 Subject: [Coco] [Color Computer] Selling old CoCo stuff on ebay In-Reply-To: <453919.25584.qm@web53711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <495A3E4B.1322.42A18F5A@shadow.shadowgard.com>, <453919.25584.qm@web53711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <495A6068.29767.4326D0B1@shadow.shadowgard.com> On 30 Dec 2008 at 16:06, Ed Siler wrote: > Leonard, > I'll be watching with interest!? I've also got a ton of CoCo stuff & am > planning to dig it out soon. ?No real idea what all is there, but there's > several coco's, MPI's, a Dragon 64 (in box!), drives, software, printers, > etc. ?But the best should be the full set of mags - HCC, CCM, & Rainbow > plus Undercolor & others.? Will post a list when possible. I've got a Dragon with a missing keycap. And possibly missing the power supply :-( Also have three MC-10s but I can only find one of the power supplies. So they'll sit until I can find the other power supplies or convince myself that they've disappeared. I've also got some non-CoCo stuff I'll get rid of once I can unearth it again. A Model II, a Model 16, 3, three Model 2000 systems... -- Leonard Erickson (aka shadow) shadow at shadowgard dot com From jcewy at swbell.net Tue Dec 30 21:14:15 2008 From: jcewy at swbell.net (Joel Ewy) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 20:14:15 -0600 Subject: [Coco] Why do we need a CoCo 4? (Long irrelevant rant) In-Reply-To: <495AA882.2070706@att.net> References: <495AA882.2070706@att.net> Message-ID: <495AD577.5080107@swbell.net> Frank Swygert wrote: > Am I reading this right? Could a more or less CoCo compatible machine > be made with a HC12? Something that would be at least 75% compatible? Not quite Frank. The issue here is that the HC12 lacks the U(ser) stack pointer register. That's a pretty major omission. (Nitr)OS-9 would be right out, and I suspect that DECB uses U as well. It's an "if only", but a pretty big "if only". JCE > I know that a lot of compatibility issues with the CoCo 3 are in the > GIME chip, but you're working that issue! Of course I'd like to see > something backward compatible with DECB, but I think it should be > acceptable if CC1/2 compatibility suffered or was gone (such as > support for PMODE screens) IF the space were needed for graphics > enhancements or coding could be seriously simplified. There would be > some software "loss" without those old graphics modes, but I > personally think that would be an acceptable compromise -- can't be > many "popular" programs out there that don't have some newer CC3 > replacement. Some of the kids games, most likely, would be lost. DECB > could even be patched if necessary. As long as CC3 specific games ran > I don't think many would object. > ------------ > Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 20:41:32 -0500 > From: jdaggett at gate.net > > Probably would be better to do something like what the HC11/HC12 > approach. Then again if the HC12 had a U register then this thread > would be mute. A Coco4 would better be done with an HC12. From jdaggett at gate.net Tue Dec 30 22:22:00 2008 From: jdaggett at gate.net (jdaggett at gate.net) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 22:22:00 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Why do we need a CoCo 4? (Long irrelevant rant) In-Reply-To: <495AD577.5080107@swbell.net> References: <495AA882.2070706@att.net>, <495AD577.5080107@swbell.net> Message-ID: <495A9F08.30339.EF1283@jdaggett.gate.net> On 30 Dec 2008 at 20:14, Joel Ewy wrote: > Frank Swygert wrote: > > Am I reading this right? Could a more or less CoCo compatible > > machine be made with a HC12? Something that would be at least 75% > > compatible? > Not quite Frank. The issue here is that the HC12 lacks the U(ser) > stack pointer register. That's a pretty major omission. (Nitr)OS-9 > would be right out, and I suspect that DECB uses U as well. It's an > "if only", but a pretty big "if only". > > JCE Joel That is what I said. if the HC12 had the U pointer register then it would be the CPU for the next Coco. Infact I told one of the managers of the HC11 line that one the HC11's biggest defects was it lacked that U pointer register and he agreed with me. The HC12 is about 80% source code compatible. Object code is not compatible. 6809 code would have to be reassembled. You do have to deal with the PSH*/PUL* instructions. james From jdaggett at gate.net Tue Dec 30 18:25:28 2008 From: jdaggett at gate.net (jdaggett at gate.net) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 18:25:28 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Why do we need a CoCo 4? (Long irrelevant rant) In-Reply-To: <495AA882.2070706@att.net> References: <495AA882.2070706@att.net> Message-ID: <495A6798.27282.16860D@jdaggett.gate.net> Frank The HC12 supports almost all of the addressing modes that the 6809 does. It even allows auto pre and post increment and decrement of the index register. Pre/post auto increment/decrement can be done by one to 8 bits. HC12 has the LEA instruction like the 6809. I would venture than most 6809 code could very easily be ported over to an HC12. Any instructions that deal with the "U" register would have to be changed. The PSHU/PULU are not defined. Also Indirect Indexed offset with the PCR I believe is not supported. >From a brief look a few years ago, the 6809 source code is about 80% or more compatable with the HC12. james On 30 Dec 2008 at 18:02, Frank Swygert wrote: > Am I reading this right? Could a more or less CoCo compatible machine > be made with a HC12? Something that would be at least 75% compatible? > I know that a lot of compatibility issues with the CoCo 3 are in the > GIME chip, but you're working that issue! Of course I'd like to see > something backward compatible with DECB, but I think it should be > acceptable if CC1/2 compatibility suffered or was gone (such as > support for PMODE screens) IF the space were needed for graphics > enhancements or coding could be seriously simplified. There would be > some software "loss" without those old graphics modes, but I > personally think that would be an acceptable compromise -- can't be > many "popular" programs out there that don't have some newer CC3 > replacement. Some of the kids games, most likely, would be lost. DECB > could even be patched if necessary. As long as CC3 specific games ran > I don't think many would object. > > ------------ > Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2008 20:41:32 -0500 > From: jdaggett at gate.net > > Probably would be better to do something like what the HC11/HC12 > approach. Then again if the HC12 had a U register then this thread > would be mute. A Coco4 would better be done with an HC12. > > -- > Frank Swygert > Publisher, "American Motors Cars" > Magazine (AMC) > For all AMC enthusiasts > http://farna.home.att.net/AMC.html > (free download available!) > > > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco From lamune at doki-doki.net Wed Dec 31 01:23:47 2008 From: lamune at doki-doki.net (Mike Pepe) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 22:23:47 -0800 Subject: [Coco] Why do we need a CoCo 4? (Long irrelevant rant) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4C8EB9FD6963BD4C8BA6B0B60FE8E4DD01D90C@fenestra.lamunet.local> This is an interesting discussion topic. Lots of folks have wildly differing ideas of what a CoCo 4 should be. I'm curious what you would do with a CoCo 4 if Steve or James gets one together for us to play with. I would prefer a CoCo 4 be an extremely compact (size of a full-length pak) and somewhat faster computer with lots of I/O and absolutely no video at all. I'd probably have it boot Nitros from a flash ROM and use it for embedded stuff like alarms or HVAC control- something akin to what George does with his CNC-CoCo. My rationale for that is that we already have super-complex PCs thousands of times faster than a CoCo for general purpose computing tasks, but not so much a simple and yet sophisticated low-power system that can be used for embedded-type applications. So, again, if you had CoCo 4- what would your preferred use for it be? (and "just to play with" is as valid a reason in my book as any, to be clear) From 6809er at bjork-huffman.net Wed Dec 31 02:41:57 2008 From: 6809er at bjork-huffman.net (Steve) Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 23:41:57 -0800 Subject: [Coco] Why do we need a CoCo 4? (Long irrelevant rant) In-Reply-To: <495A9F08.30339.EF1283@jdaggett.gate.net> References: <495AA882.2070706@att.net> <495AD577.5080107@swbell.net> <495A9F08.30339.EF1283@jdaggett.gate.net> Message-ID: <20081231074227.E9E0C20A13@qs281.pair.com> Without an U register none of games would run at all. But first a little coding history ... Back in the 70's, I create a form of Object Oriented Code (OCC) in assemble language. Every thing from the player's ship to the shot fire at him were control by uniformed data-blocks of information. To create a new object in the game all I need was to setup a new data-block filled with the data for that element of the game. The first byte was the control flags with bits that would let the system know if the data-block was in use (alive) or should be display on the screen and so on. That was followed by bytes would hold other information like the display image type, movement type and position. Every bit of information that the object needed was stored in that block of data. What made this system work so well on the Z-80 (and 6809) was their 16-bit index registers with an 8-bit offset. I would load the Index pointer with the address of the first Data-Block and call that would work on the data. Once the call was done, I move to the data-block till all the data-blocks were worked on. Each call knew just where to find the information they needed because the data-blocks had the same layout. The data at located at 4 bytes in was the movement type for the object so an MOVETYPE,IX would get that movement code to run on this object. The bottom line was this data-block system created very tight code since all the calls used the same data format. Also, there was very little chance of having a runtime error do to pulling the data from the wrong location. Getting back to why I used the U register for my pointer and not the X or the Y registers. First, the X & Y registers can be used for more than index registers, like 16-bit counters since they set the zero flag when the LEA -1,X hits zero. Besides, I had no need for a user stack since all my data for an object was stored in the data-block. Steve (Zaxxon) Bjork At 07:22 PM 12/30/2008, you wrote: >Joel > >That is what I said. if the HC12 had the U pointer register then it >would be the CPU for the next Coco. Infact I told one of the >managers of the HC11 line that one the HC11's biggest defects >was it lacked that U pointer register and he agreed with me. > >The HC12 is about 80% source code compatible. Object code is not >compatible. 6809 code would have to be reassembled. You do have to >deal with the PSH*/PUL* instructions. > >james From exwn8jef at gmail.com Wed Dec 31 08:38:21 2008 From: exwn8jef at gmail.com (N8WQ) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 08:38:21 -0500 Subject: [Coco] 256K RAM chips In-Reply-To: <77801.98754.qm@web111211.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: , <4952F29A.3080900@gmail.com> <49569607.7330.163194@jdaggett.gate.net> <77801.98754.qm@web111211.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <495B75CD.3010707@gmail.com> John and James, Sorry for the delay in getting back to you guys. Thanks for all the information on my memory chips. I knew they wouldn't actually work in the CoCo 3 but I thought they might be able to be used in some other creative way. It just seems a waste to through these chips in the trash. I will keep them until some creative project comes my way. Before I forget I hope everyone on the list has a Happy New Year. I finally got all my CoCo's out of storage but I forgot to get my color monitor! :) I will get it on my next trip. Alan Jones -- N8WQ - Canal Winchester, Ohio http://exwn8jef.googlepages.com/home http://n8wq.blogspot.com John Eric wrote: > Those UM61-256K-15 are in fact 256Kbit, 32Kx8 Static CACHE RAM chips. I several tubes of those. You might could use them to make a battery backed RAM Cartridge (32K) ??? JE > > > > > ________________________________ > From: "jdaggett at gate.net" > To: CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts > Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:54:31 PM > Subject: Re: [Coco] 256K RAM chips > > On 24 Dec 2008 at 21:40, N8WQ wrote: > > >> Can you guys tell me if I might be able to use these memory chips in a >> Color Computer 3 project? Any ideas? >> >> http://exwn8jef.googlepages.com/cocoprojects >> >> Alan Jones >> > > > Not without some means of demultiplexing the memory address from the > Z-Buss. To achieve the 20 bit address you will need other logic and use the > RAS/CAS signals to convert the 10 bit multiplexed address to a 20 bit > address to use SRAMs. > > james > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > > > > > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > > From exwn8jef at gmail.com Wed Dec 31 08:44:25 2008 From: exwn8jef at gmail.com (N8WQ) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 08:44:25 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Why do we need a CoCo 4? (Long irrelevant rant) In-Reply-To: <20081231074227.E9E0C20A13@qs281.pair.com> References: <495AA882.2070706@att.net> <495AD577.5080107@swbell.net> <495A9F08.30339.EF1283@jdaggett.gate.net> <20081231074227.E9E0C20A13@qs281.pair.com> Message-ID: <495B7739.5000807@gmail.com> Good Morning Steve, First, let me thank you for writing a lot of cool games for the CoCo. I've spent many an hour playing Zaxxon. I enjoyed reading how you did some of your programming. Alan Jones -- N8WQ - Canal Winchester, Ohio http://exwn8jef.googlepages.com/home http://n8wq.blogspot.com Steve wrote: > Without an U register none of games would run at all. But first a > little coding history ... > > Back in the 70's, I create a form of Object Oriented Code (OCC) in > assemble language. Every thing from the player's ship to the shot > fire at him were control by uniformed data-blocks of information. To > create a new object in the game all I need was to setup a new > data-block filled with the data for that element of the game. > > The first byte was the control flags with bits that would let the > system know if the data-block was in use (alive) or should be display > on the screen and so on. That was followed by bytes would hold other > information like the display image type, movement type and position. > Every bit of information that the object needed was stored in that > block of data. > > What made this system work so well on the Z-80 (and 6809) was their > 16-bit index registers with an 8-bit offset. I would load the Index > pointer with the address of the first Data-Block and call that would > work on the data. Once the call was done, I move to the data-block > till all the data-blocks were worked on. > > Each call knew just where to find the information they needed because > the data-blocks had the same layout. The data at located at 4 bytes > in was the movement type for the object so an MOVETYPE,IX would get > that movement code to run on this object. > > The bottom line was this data-block system created very tight code > since all the calls used the same data format. Also, there was very > little chance of having a runtime error do to pulling the data from > the wrong location. > > Getting back to why I used the U register for my pointer and not the X > or the Y registers. First, the X & Y registers can be used for more > than index registers, like 16-bit counters since they set the zero > flag when the LEA -1,X hits zero. Besides, I had no need for a user > stack since all my data for an object was stored in the data-block. > > Steve (Zaxxon) Bjork > > At 07:22 PM 12/30/2008, you wrote: >> Joel >> >> That is what I said. if the HC12 had the U pointer register then it >> would be the CPU for the next Coco. Infact I told one of the managers >> of the HC11 line that one the HC11's biggest defects was it lacked >> that U pointer register and he agreed with me. >> >> The HC12 is about 80% source code compatible. Object code is not >> compatible. 6809 code would have to be reassembled. You do have to >> deal with the PSH*/PUL* instructions. >> >> james > > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > From exwn8jef at gmail.com Wed Dec 31 09:01:31 2008 From: exwn8jef at gmail.com (N8WQ) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 09:01:31 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Going Forward with our hobby In-Reply-To: <20081231074227.E9E0C20A13@qs281.pair.com> References: <495AA882.2070706@att.net> <495AD577.5080107@swbell.net> <495A9F08.30339.EF1283@jdaggett.gate.net> <20081231074227.E9E0C20A13@qs281.pair.com> Message-ID: <495B7B3B.30701@gmail.com> I have plans on using at least one of my CoCo's in a micro controller project of some sort. Also I plan on using one of my CoCo's in various ham radio applications such as RTTY, SSTV, packet radio, ect. My main goal at this time is to have a working CoCo that I can go to at anytime and do some programming on. Another idea I've had for some time is to write my own operating system for the CoCo from the ground up. It would definitely be a learning experience. Am I blowing out smoke here guys? :) Alan Jones -- N8WQ - Canal Winchester, Ohio http://exwn8jef.googlepages.com/home http://n8wq.blogspot.com > From diegoba at adinet.com.uy Wed Dec 31 12:00:04 2008 From: diegoba at adinet.com.uy (Diego Barizo) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 15:00:04 -0200 Subject: [Coco] Why do we need a CoCo 4? (Long irrelevant rant) In-Reply-To: <4C8EB9FD6963BD4C8BA6B0B60FE8E4DD01D90C@fenestra.lamunet.local> References: <4C8EB9FD6963BD4C8BA6B0B60FE8E4DD01D90C@fenestra.lamunet.local> Message-ID: <495BA514.6070900@adinet.com.uy> I would like to have something I can take with me everywhere, plug it to a TV or PC monitor, to a PC keyboard, to the CF card I use as Hard drive, and be ready to show some CoCo times everyone. Almost as I can do with my CoCo+Super IDE+VGA adapter, just in a smaller, easier to carry package. Diego Mike Pepe wrote: > This is an interesting discussion topic. Lots of folks have wildly > differing ideas of what a CoCo 4 should be. > > > So, again, if you had CoCo 4- what would your preferred use for it be? > > (and "just to play with" is as valid a reason in my book as any, to be > clear) > > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > > From jdaggett at gate.net Wed Dec 31 13:48:54 2008 From: jdaggett at gate.net (jdaggett at gate.net) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 13:48:54 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Going Forward with our hobby In-Reply-To: <495B7B3B.30701@gmail.com> References: <495AA882.2070706@att.net>, <20081231074227.E9E0C20A13@qs281.pair.com>, <495B7B3B.30701@gmail.com> Message-ID: <495B7846.14033.146D4D2@jdaggett.gate.net> On 31 Dec 2008 at 9:01, N8WQ wrote: > I have plans on using at least one of my CoCo's in a micro controller > project of some sort. Also I plan on using one of my CoCo's in various > ham radio applications such as RTTY, SSTV, packet radio, ect. My main > goal at this time is to have a working CoCo that I can go to at > anytime and do some programming on. Another idea I've had for some > time is to write my own operating system for the CoCo from the ground > up. It would definitely be a learning experience. Am I blowing out > smoke here guys? :) > > Alan Jones No. My use for a Coco is a small compact unit that can be battery powered and used to controll a telescope. Isn't packet radio somewhat dead? Or is it still slow and unreliable? james From exwn8jef at gmail.com Wed Dec 31 15:07:26 2008 From: exwn8jef at gmail.com (N8WQ) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 15:07:26 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Going Forward with our hobby In-Reply-To: <495B7846.14033.146D4D2@jdaggett.gate.net> References: <495AA882.2070706@att.net>, <20081231074227.E9E0C20A13@qs281.pair.com>, <495B7B3B.30701@gmail.com> <495B7846.14033.146D4D2@jdaggett.gate.net> Message-ID: <495BD0FE.7090501@gmail.com> Packet is not dead. It is certainly not as popular as it was though. On HF radio 300 baud is the norm and on VHF frequencies 1200 baud is the norm (this doesn't include "backbone" frequencies which typically operate at 2400 or 9600 baud. I don't believe packet radio is unreliable. What make it slow sometimes is what is called a "collision." When two or more stations are operating simultaneously on the same frequency packets can collide with one another and slow down the transfer rate but these collisions can be compensated for up to a point by adjusting various parameters in the TNC (terminal node controller) firmware. My main reason for operating packet is to participate in the ARES (Amateur Radio Emergency System) to handle emergency message traffic. Now days the prefered mode is called PACTOR. PACTOR 2 and 3 are the prefered modes especially for HF and Marine radio systems. Thanks for your reply James and letting me know I am not blowing smoke! As long as it is solder smoke I don't mind. :) Alan Jones -- N8WQ - Canal Winchester, Ohio http://exwn8jef.googlepages.com/home http://n8wq.blogspot.com jdaggett at gate.net wrote: > On 31 Dec 2008 at 9:01, N8WQ wrote: > > >> I have plans on using at least one of my CoCo's in a micro controller >> project of some sort. Also I plan on using one of my CoCo's in various >> ham radio applications such as RTTY, SSTV, packet radio, ect. My main >> goal at this time is to have a working CoCo that I can go to at >> anytime and do some programming on. Another idea I've had for some >> time is to write my own operating system for the CoCo from the ground >> up. It would definitely be a learning experience. Am I blowing out >> smoke here guys? :) >> >> Alan Jones >> > > > No. > > My use for a Coco is a small compact unit that can be battery powered and > used to controll a telescope. > > Isn't packet radio somewhat dead? Or is it still slow and unreliable? > > james > > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > > From os9dude at gmail.com Wed Dec 31 15:24:16 2008 From: os9dude at gmail.com (Rogelio Perea) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 15:24:16 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Going Forward with our hobby In-Reply-To: <495BD0FE.7090501@gmail.com> References: <495AA882.2070706@att.net> <20081231074227.E9E0C20A13@qs281.pair.com> <495B7B3B.30701@gmail.com> <495B7846.14033.146D4D2@jdaggett.gate.net> <495BD0FE.7090501@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5631e580812311224k4f4cb477t7b0adcd4c09ced7a@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 3:07 PM, N8WQ wrote: > As long as it is solder smoke I don't mind. :) > > The mark of a true hardware tinkerer!. Loved that statement Alan, and can relate. Happy New Year to all... be safe... -=[ Rogelio ]=- From jdaggett at gate.net Wed Dec 31 15:49:18 2008 From: jdaggett at gate.net (jdaggett at gate.net) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 15:49:18 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Going Forward with our hobby In-Reply-To: <495BD0FE.7090501@gmail.com> References: <495AA882.2070706@att.net>, <495B7846.14033.146D4D2@jdaggett.gate.net>, <495BD0FE.7090501@gmail.com> Message-ID: <495B947E.18036.1B50D50@jdaggett.gate.net> On 31 Dec 2008 at 15:07, N8WQ wrote: > Thanks for your reply James and letting me know I am not blowing > smoke! As long as it is solder smoke I don't mind. :) Nope It is not blowing smoke. The only thing new is PACTOR. I have been away from packet radio for about ten years. I still remember the ROSE debates. 73s WA4BZJ From petrander at gmail.com Wed Dec 31 16:34:13 2008 From: petrander at gmail.com (Fedor Steeman) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 22:34:13 +0100 Subject: [Coco] Why do we need a CoCo 4? (Long irrelevant rant) In-Reply-To: <495BA514.6070900@adinet.com.uy> References: <4C8EB9FD6963BD4C8BA6B0B60FE8E4DD01D90C@fenestra.lamunet.local> <495BA514.6070900@adinet.com.uy> Message-ID: Hi Diego, I quite agree! Having a tiny portable coco package would be really neat. Maybe it could even have its own little LCD screen! BTW did you receive my submission for the Asimov Awards? Now you have no choice but to do the Asimov Awards for another year! :-D Cheers, Fedor 2008/12/31 Diego Barizo > I would like to have something I can take with me everywhere, plug it to a > TV or PC monitor, to a PC keyboard, to the CF card I use as Hard drive, and > be ready to show some CoCo times everyone. > Almost as I can do with my CoCo+Super IDE+VGA adapter, just in a smaller, > easier to carry package. > > Diego > > > Mike Pepe wrote: > >> This is an interesting discussion topic. Lots of folks have wildly >> differing ideas of what a CoCo 4 should be. >> >> >> > > So, again, if you had CoCo 4- what would your preferred use for it be? >> >> (and "just to play with" is as valid a reason in my book as any, to be >> clear) >> >> >> -- >> Coco mailing list >> Coco at maltedmedia.com >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco >> >> >> > > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > From petrander at gmail.com Wed Dec 31 16:38:46 2008 From: petrander at gmail.com (Fedor Steeman) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 22:38:46 +0100 Subject: [Coco] Next year will be the year of the CoCo! Message-ID: Hi, Did everyone notice that the new year will be THE year of the CoCo, since, well, it ends in '09 ! Especially one date (or actually two) should be of our interest: 6-8-'09 That would be June the 8th for most of us here, but on continental Europe at least, it would be the sixth of August. Maybe reason for a little celebration? Just my thought for the new year... HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYONE! Fedor From paulej at arid.us Wed Dec 31 16:42:24 2008 From: paulej at arid.us (Paul E. Jones) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 16:42:24 -0500 Subject: [Coco] Computer learning tools (was: Coco4..Who needs it? I do.) In-Reply-To: <4c56cbd30812300907q4e635b73ucce766a2b6c3a6c9@mail.gmail.com> References: <4c56cbd30812300907q4e635b73ucce766a2b6c3a6c9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <017601c96b90$aaed4970$00c7dc50$@us> James, My son has a Lego Mindstorm NXT robot. While I am quite interested in it -- pretty cool with the Bluetooth interface and programmable microcontroller -- he is far less interested. The reason is that if he creates something, he can't share his creations. He gets more enjoyment out of scripting on video games sites and updating his own web site. I think it is the aspect of sharing what you have and what you do that helps entice his interest and what I believe can help build a community. He could get into things like Visual Basic or C++, but both of those present huge learning curves. There's a lot to be said for being able to create something fairly easily and then sharing that with somebody who can build on it. It was precisely that kind of thing that helped me as I started exploring computers. Magazines like Hot Coco and Rainbow were wonderful, with all of the sample programs, hints, and tips. CoCo user groups sprang up all over. Whatever gets produced, I think it needs to have that same kind of impact. Paul > -----Original Message----- > From: coco-bounces at maltedmedia.com [mailto:coco- > bounces at maltedmedia.com] On Behalf Of James Dessart > Sent: Tuesday, December 30, 2008 12:08 PM > To: CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts > Subject: [Coco] Computer learning tools (was: Coco4..Who needs it? I > do.) > > As far as simple programming goes, I had a lot of fun with Hypercard > on my Mac, after "graduating" from my CoCo. A more modern equivalent, > again on the Mac, would be AppleScript Studio. > > Now, I'm not saying everyone should go out and buy a Mac, but I'm sure > there must be similar solutions on the PC. I'd suggest VisualBasic, > but afaic, that's like polluting a child's mind. :) > > There are a number of learning environments out there. There's one set > up for Squeak that provides kids with a nice framework for learning > programming. Don't remember the name, but it should be easy to find. > > As for hardware, there are so many different programming > microcontrollers out there now, many with USB interfaces, that I'm > sure someone will eventually make one that's as easy to use as the > CoCo was for hardware hacking. Maybe Arduino is that, I haven't looked > into it too deeply. > > Actually, just looked into Arduino. It uses Processing, which may > indeed also be a good programming learning tool. Haven't looked much > into it either, but it's intended for visual arts folk, meaning it'd > probably be fine for kids as well. > > Now, do we need to call this set of software and hardware a CoCo 4? > no. The CoCo will always be what it is right now, culminating in the > CoCo 3. I don't think a product based on the CoCo name would be all > that successful, and certainly not successful enough to go to the > expense of full R&D for a product. > > -- > James Dessart > > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > From operator at coco3.com Wed Dec 31 17:29:36 2008 From: operator at coco3.com (Roger Taylor) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 16:29:36 -0600 Subject: [Coco] Next year will be the year of the CoCo! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20081231222948.5302A20A15@qs281.pair.com> At 03:38 PM 12/31/2008, you wrote: >Hi, > >Did everyone notice that the new year will be THE year of the CoCo, since, >well, it ends in '09 ! > >Especially one date (or actually two) should be of our interest: > >6-8-'09 > >That would be June the 8th for most of us here, but on continental Europe at >least, it would be the sixth of August. Maybe reason for a little >celebration? > >Just my thought for the new year... > >HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYONE! > >Fedor My birthday is 6-7-09. Had it been 6-8-09, that would be pretty scary. -- Roger Taylor http://www.wordofthedayonline.com From alsplace at pobox.com Wed Dec 31 17:30:55 2008 From: alsplace at pobox.com (Allen Huffman) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 16:30:55 -0600 Subject: [Coco] Next year will be the year of the CoCo! In-Reply-To: <20081231222948.5302A20A15@qs281.pair.com> References: <20081231222948.5302A20A15@qs281.pair.com> Message-ID: <41F753C9-BD57-4753-B465-71D592D0993F@pobox.com> On Dec 31, 2008, at 4:29 PM, Roger Taylor wrote: >> That would be June the 8th for most of us here, but on continental >> Europe at >> least, it would be the sixth of August. Maybe reason for a little >> celebration? Sounds like we'll get to celebrate twice! -- Allen From petrander at gmail.com Wed Dec 31 18:06:02 2008 From: petrander at gmail.com (Fedor Steeman) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 00:06:02 +0100 Subject: [Coco] HAPPY NEW YEAR! (first) Message-ID: Happy New Year from one of the first CoCoers in the new year! Cheers, Fedor From mechacoco at gmail.com Wed Dec 31 18:12:24 2008 From: mechacoco at gmail.com (Darren A) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 16:12:24 -0700 Subject: [Coco] Next year will be the year of the CoCo! In-Reply-To: <41F753C9-BD57-4753-B465-71D592D0993F@pobox.com> References: <20081231222948.5302A20A15@qs281.pair.com> <41F753C9-BD57-4753-B465-71D592D0993F@pobox.com> Message-ID: <5d802cd0812311512r444a8912tb24ecb4b13d6b080@mail.gmail.com> On 12/31/08, Allen Huffman wrote: >>> That would be June the 8th for most of us here, but on continental >>> Europe at >>> least, it would be the sixth of August. Maybe reason for a little >>> celebration? > > Sounds like we'll get to celebrate twice! > > -- Allen > Four times if you want to include the 6309 (6th of March and June 3rd). Darren From cyberpunk at prtc.net Wed Dec 31 19:30:51 2008 From: cyberpunk at prtc.net (RJLCyberPunk) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 20:30:51 -0400 Subject: [Coco] Computer learning tools (was: Coco4..Who needs it? I do.) References: <4c56cbd30812300907q4e635b73ucce766a2b6c3a6c9@mail.gmail.com> <017601c96b90$aaed4970$00c7dc50$@us> Message-ID: <630695C332594BA488F3E2E44E7D5B84@FANTASYWARE> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul E. Jones" To: "'CoCoList for Color Computer Enthusiasts'" Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 5:42 PM Subject: Re: [Coco] Computer learning tools (was: Coco4..Who needs it? I do.) > James, > > My son has a Lego Mindstorm NXT robot. While I am quite interested in > it -- > pretty cool with the Bluetooth interface and programmable > microcontroller -- > he is far less interested. The reason is that if he creates something, he > can't share his creations. He gets more enjoyment out of scripting on > video > games sites and updating his own web site. > > I think it is the aspect of sharing what you have and what you do that > helps > entice his interest and what I believe can help build a community. > > He could get into things like Visual Basic or C++, but both of those > present > huge learning curves. There's a lot to be said for being able to create > something fairly easily and then sharing that with somebody who can build > on > it. It was precisely that kind of thing that helped me as I started > exploring computers. Magazines like Hot Coco and Rainbow were wonderful, > with all of the sample programs, hints, and tips. CoCo user groups sprang > up all over. > > Whatever gets produced, I think it needs to have that same kind of impact. > > Paul Umm... Just FYI Visual Basic does not take a huge learning curve at all, it is one of the easiest computer languages that has ever been developed in fact it is not that hard to conver a CoCo basic program to to Visual Basic. Having said that it would still be great to have a virtual next generation CoCo around for sure, but the endgame should always be for the CoCo to have some physical form at least in the far flung future. From fwp at deepthought.com Wed Dec 31 21:03:35 2008 From: fwp at deepthought.com (Frank Pittel) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 20:03:35 -0600 Subject: [Coco] Next year will be the year of the CoCo! In-Reply-To: <41F753C9-BD57-4753-B465-71D592D0993F@pobox.com> References: <20081231222948.5302A20A15@qs281.pair.com> <41F753C9-BD57-4753-B465-71D592D0993F@pobox.com> Message-ID: <20090101020335.GA17476@warlock.deepthought.com> We need to celebrate three time!! Don't forget 6-3-09 On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 04:30:55PM -0600, Allen Huffman wrote: > On Dec 31, 2008, at 4:29 PM, Roger Taylor wrote: >>> That would be June the 8th for most of us here, but on continental >>> Europe at >>> least, it would be the sixth of August. Maybe reason for a little >>> celebration? > > Sounds like we'll get to celebrate twice! > > -- Allen > > > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco From jdaggett at gate.net Wed Dec 31 20:53:09 2008 From: jdaggett at gate.net (jdaggett at gate.net) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 20:53:09 -0500 Subject: [Coco] HAPPY NEW YEAR! (first) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <495BDBB5.15278.10809C@jdaggett.gate.net> On 1 Jan 2009 at 0:06, Fedor Steeman wrote: > Happy New Year from one of the first CoCoers in the new year! > > Cheers, > Fedor Happy New Year to you and your family. james From jmckay at jmk1.freeserve.co.uk Wed Dec 31 21:31:37 2008 From: jmckay at jmk1.freeserve.co.uk (James McKay) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 02:31:37 -0000 Subject: [Coco] 3D Deathchase demo. Message-ID: Hi! I have released a demo version of the "Spectrum classic" 3D Deathchase for the CoCo 1/2 & Dragon. This demo requires 32K of RAM and is available in CAS, WAV or DSK format. http://www.indigobanquet.adsl24.co.uk/coco/deathchase/deathchase.htm Happy new year! From jcewy at swbell.net Wed Dec 31 21:58:51 2008 From: jcewy at swbell.net (Joel Ewy) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 20:58:51 -0600 Subject: [Coco] 3D Deathchase demo. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <495C316B.1020406@swbell.net> James McKay wrote: > Hi! I have released a demo version of the "Spectrum classic" 3D Deathchase > for the CoCo 1/2 & Dragon. This demo requires 32K of RAM and is available > in CAS, WAV or DSK format. > > http://www.indigobanquet.adsl24.co.uk/coco/deathchase/deathchase.htm > > Happy new year! > > Cool stuff. I'll have to try it out. By the way, my son who just turned 6, LOVES "The Glove." JCE > > > -- > Coco mailing list > Coco at maltedmedia.com > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coco > > From carlossantiago at austin.rr.com Wed Dec 31 22:07:06 2008 From: carlossantiago at austin.rr.com (Carlos Santiago) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 21:07:06 -0600 Subject: [Coco] Coco4 thoughts Message-ID: <8A025643-E89D-41A2-9690-138E27C4BE5C@austin.rr.com> Paul, et al, My view of the Coco family of computers has always been as a hobbyist. Over the years, I struggled with the same issues with my kids. The reality is that back then or even today, the use of a computer for school required knowledge of the applications. It was really not easy to have my children work on a book report or essay until they learned to use the applications. This was true for the Coco, Apple, Amiga, Mac, PC, etc. I have used all of them an also worked with my children so they would learn to use the applications. Anyone that is interested in a Coco as their primary machine, will demand many new features and applications that already exist in a PC or Mac. These users will have a hard time because they will try to mould the Coco into something that it is not. As for a Coco4.exe Steve Bjork is already working on this along with a new version of Basic. These will satisfy the need for something that runs on the PC, but it will not allow you to develop any new Coco specific hardware. The Coco has alway been a computer for those interested in writing programs and adding new and interesting hardware features. A hobbyist computer. My interest is to rekindle that spirit. A new Coco4 will allow those who had great ideas about Coco software and hardware to implement them. Imagine the ability to revive some of the old Coco program and games with new graphics and sound. Maybe improve some games that were limited only by the available memory or storage capability. In the early days, I would modify the graphics mode and colors of games to make them look better or more like the originals. I really enjoyed modifying and writing 6809 code for the Coco. I would like to start a list of people that are interested in the idea of a Coco4 and also those of you that are capable of contributing. This would be a project for the Coco community to provided those of you with the type of machine you dream about. Some of the feedback I received was that it would cost too much. Or that the design would be too complex. I have been a hardware engineer since 1979 and have spent much time developing products that are low cost and feature rich. On thing that is clear is that the Coco4 may materialize in the near future as software or hardware. If you would like a specific feature or capability, the only way to obtain it is by being involved. I mean in the real sense, not just to request a crazy feature to see if it can be done. The start of al this will be a development document that will define the boundaries of the project. Once this is complete and agreed upon, the design work can start. Thanks, Carlos From brjeremy at juno.com Wed Dec 31 23:42:23 2008 From: brjeremy at juno.com (brjeremy at juno.com) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 04:42:23 GMT Subject: [Coco] A New Years Prayer Message-ID: <20081231.224223.487.0@webmail09.dca.untd.com> My dear friends: As the Old Year draws to a close and a New Year dawns may God watch over each of you and those dear to you. May this be a year of health and peace. May he provide for our needs and even make allowances for some of our wants. And to adapt a phrase from my Jewish friends,..next year in Elgin. With all best wishes, Brother Jeremy, CSJW ____________________________________________________________ Do it right the first time. Click to find contractors to work on your home improvement project. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw2eRI3gpd5Qr63nyY0PegVLDEV3mhN2hdEItkFg7cohBkywp/ From briang0671 at sbcglobal.net Wed Dec 31 23:55:39 2008 From: briang0671 at sbcglobal.net (Brian Goers) Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 22:55:39 -0600 Subject: [Coco] Happy New Year!! Message-ID: <495C4CCB.2020505@sbcglobal.net> Happy New Year Everyone. Be safe and Healthy. I'll hope to see you at the Chicago CoCoFEST! -- Brian Goers Glenside Vice-President of Special Events IDE Boards are available. The 18th Annual ?LAST? Chicago CoCoFEST! Will be held March 28 & 29 2009 Holiday Inn & Suites Elgin.