[Coco] Re: CoCo magazine project

farna at att.net farna at att.net
Sat Jul 9 20:46:29 EDT 2005 

I'm just going to put in a couple cents worth again, not repeat the entire message!

1. If DjVU will be that much smaller it would be worth buying a copy, especially if you're planning on doing other works. So add $1 to every copy to cover the cost of the software if necessary. I don't know that I'd worry much about UNIX/LINUX viewers, but Mac would be nice. You'll cover 90% of interested parties with a PC viewer though. 

2. While a complete searchable database would be nice, a simple index for each disk would be sufficient. It could be a text or RTF file that can be put in a word processor and searched. Simple, but effective for the most part. 

3. Why worry about OCR capability? It's nice for listings, but the scanning and error correcting will be time consuming for you. 

4. If it takes four CDs divide the CDs into sets and make each available separately, with a discount for buying the entire collection at once. Those who can afford to will buy the entire collection, others can buy a CD every few months or so if they need to. So it's $55 if you buy all at once, $65 (an extra $5 each CD for S&H) if you buy one at a time @ $12.50 each + $5 S&H. 

5. Bottom line is you're going to have to balance functions with your time and effort. No matter what you do someone will criticize you for doing to not enough -- they "would have done it better" but didn't do anything. It's a fact of life, and we're all guilty of being "they" at one point or another! You can cut and paste from a PDF, and can correct from that. I wouldn't worry about OCR functions as long as the text is clearly readable. I wouldn't worry much about a searchable database either. Just having the magazines available will be great! 


On Saturday 09 July 2005 13:25, Michael Wayne Harwood wrote:
>James,
>
>Thanks for the questions - I am going to have to fill the FAQ on the
>project website out a lot more!!

--
Frank Swygert
Publisher, "American Independent 
Magazine" (AIM)
For all AMC enthusiasts
http://farna.home.att.net/AIM.html
(free download available!)
			

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> Today's Topics:
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>    1. Re: Re: [Color Computer] Fw: Copyright (Frank Pittel)
>    2. Re: Re: [Color Computer] DjVU (Michael Wayne Harwood)
>    3. Re: Re: [Color Computer] DjVU (Michael Wayne Harwood)
>    4. RE: Re: [Color Computer] Fw: Copyright (Leonard Miller)
>    5. Re: [Color Computer] Fw: Copyright (James Diffendaffer)
>    6. Re: [Color Computer] Fw: Copyright (James the Animal Tamer)
>    7. [Color Computer] Re: DjVU (James Diffendaffer)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 14:30:16 -0500
> From: Frank Pittel <fwp at deepthought.com>
> Subject: Re: [Coco] Re: [Color Computer] Fw: Copyright
> To: ColorComputer at yahoogroups.com,	CoCoList for Color Computer
> 	Enthusiasts <coco at maltedmedia.com>
> Message-ID: <20050709193016.GR5480 at warlock.deepthought.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> 
> On Fri, Jul 08, 2005 at 10:18:47PM -0000, James the Animal Tamer wrote:
> > > or the copyright 
> > > runs out.
> > 
> > Oo, thanks to the late tree-hugger congressman Sonny Bono, I think 
> > that's 95 years*.
> > 
> > 
> > *Rumor has it that this was a Mickey Mouse idea
> 
> The way I understand it is that every time the copywrite on Mickey is
> about to run out Disney gets the length of time extended.
> 
> Frank 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 13:21:00 -0600 (MDT)
> From: "Michael Wayne Harwood" <michael at musicheadproductions.org>
> Subject: Re: [Coco] Re: [Color Computer] DjVU
> To: ColorComputer at yahoogroups.com,	"CoCoList for Color Computer
> 	Enthusiasts" <coco at maltedmedia.com>
> Cc: Coco on Yahoo <colorcomputer at yahoogroups.com>
> Message-ID:
> 	<1657.192.168.1.1.1120936860.squirrel at webmail.musicheadproductions.org>
> 	
> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
> 
> I did look at the partners page - thanks Neil!  There's not a download
> link at this point for the Document Express eval, and I wouldn't want to
> use their eval for this project as I think that would violate the spirit
> of why they place their eval out there.
> 
> >From my initial tests using the freeware DjVU utils I am pretty
> unimpressed with my results.  The document sizes of .pdf versus .djvu is
> almost exactly the same for the same quality.  I have seen some results on
> the web that have much better compression ratios.  I am guessing the
> commercial products do a better job in general.  If I can ever get an
> evaluation version of the Document Express product I will try it out.
> 
> Regards,
> Michael Harwood
> 
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Michael Wayne Harwood" <michael at musicheadproductions.org>
> >
> >
> >> I have done some looking at DjVU and I am impressed!  Everything I want
> >> to
> >> do with .pdf can be done as well with DjVU but there may be a price to
> >> be
> >> paid for the format's youth....
> >
> > Well, if you had all the scanning done and could just throw them through
> > the
> > LizardTech process in 60 days . . . .
> >
> > "Download a Trial Version of Document Express with DjVu. With the trial
> > version of Document Express with DjVu, users can use the entire suite of
> > powerful document conversion and management tools within the 60-day
> > evaluation period".
> >
> > BTW, did you look at http://www.djvuzone.org/partners/index.html ??
> >
> > Neil
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2005 13:21:00 -0600 (MDT)
> From: "Michael Wayne Harwood" <michael at musicheadproductions.org>
> Subject: Re: [Coco] Re: [Color Computer] DjVU
> To: ColorComputer at yahoogroups.com,	"CoCoList for Color Computer
> 	Enthusiasts" <coco at maltedmedia.com>
> Cc: Coco on Yahoo <colorcomputer at yahoogroups.com>
> Message-ID:
> 	<1657.192.168.1.1.1120936860.squirrel at webmail.musicheadproductions.org>
> 	
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> 
> I did look at the partners page - thanks Neil!  There's not a download
> link at this point for the Document Express eval, and I wouldn't want to
> use their eval for this project as I think that would violate the spirit
> of why they place their eval out there.
> 
> >From my initial tests using the freeware DjVU utils I am pretty
> unimpressed with my results.  The document sizes of .pdf versus .djvu is
> almost exactly the same for the same quality.  I have seen some results on
> the web that have much better compression ratios.  I am guessing the
> commercial products do a better job in general.  If I can ever get an
> evaluation version of the Document Express product I will try it out.
> 
> Regards,
> Michael Harwood
> 
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Michael Wayne Harwood" <michael at musicheadproductions.org>
> >
> >
> >> I have done some looking at DjVU and I am impressed!  Everything I want
> >> to
> >> do with .pdf can be done as well with DjVU but there may be a price to
> >> be
> >> paid for the format's youth....
> >
> > Well, if you had all the scanning done and could just throw them through
> > the
> > LizardTech process in 60 days . . . .
> >
> > "Download a Trial Version of Document Express with DjVu. With the trial
> > version of Document Express with DjVu, users can use the entire suite of
> > powerful document conversion and management tools within the 60-day
> > evaluation period".
> >
> > BTW, did you look at http://www.djvuzone.org/partners/index.html ??
> >
> > Neil
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brought to you by the 6809, the 6803 and their cousins! 
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> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 4
> Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 15:46:21 -0400
> From: "Leonard Miller" <leonard23 at verizon.net>
> Subject: RE: [Coco] Re: [Color Computer] Fw: Copyright
> To: <ColorComputer at yahoogroups.com>
> Message-ID: <KCEPICPGLANFNAECJNBDKELNCCAA.leonard23 at verizon.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
> 
> 
> I assume that we can always copy the original over to the media format we
> like after making the purchase?  That takes care of the single versus dual
> layer debate.
> 
> Leonard
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: coco-bounces at maltedmedia.com [mailto:coco-bounces at maltedmedia.com]On
> Behalf Of Gene Heskett
> Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2005 2:08 PM
> To: ColorComputer at yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Coco] Re: [Color Computer] Fw: Copyright
> 
> On Saturday 09 July 2005 13:25, Michael Wayne Harwood wrote:
> >James,
> >
> >Thanks for the questions - I am going to have to fill the FAQ on the
> >project website out a lot more!!
> >
> >> Is that single or dual layer DVDs?  (I suppose it depends on the
> >> cost of
> >
> >the disks when you get it all together)
> >
> >I have chosen single layer.  Dual layer recordable DVDs cost around
> > $4 to $5 each, while single layer are less than $1 (about $.70).
> > The issue of cost has been in the threads a lot lately, so I assume
> > that more than a few people are concerned about the cost.  Would
> > you rather the cost include (estimated) $3.50 for 8 single layer
> > DVDs or $32 for 4 dual-layer DVDs??  It's makes the product go from
> > a cost of $50 to $82.
> >
> >This brings up the subject of production quality in general.  Is it
> > more important to have the product cost less at the expense of
> > "nice to have features"??
> >
> >> What DPI are you scanning at (I found 300 was manditory for
> >> everything
> >
> >to be readable).
> >
> >300ppi 24bit color
> >
> I've found that when using GOCR, the OCR error rates fall like a rock
> if the dpi is ran on up to 1200.  But that will quickly fill a hard
> drive of normal size.  That was also a 3 or 4 year ago experiment,
> GOCR may have improved some by now.
> 
> >> Will that include the Books too?  (Book of Adventures 1, 2, 3,
> >> simulations, etc...)
> >
> >Unfortunately this is out of scope for this project.  Lonnie said he
> > would be willing to discuss licensing those works after this
> > project is finished, but that he wanted to see how the Rainbow on
> > Disc project turned out before making that decision.
> >
> >> $50 is kinda the most I'd be willing to spend... possibly $60 with
> >> the
> >
> >books.  I think you'll find the audience limited to the diehard coco
> >fans at that price.
> >
> >I would really like the cost to be as low as possible.  The cost is
> > going to be mostly dependant on production costs - I make an
> > estimate of $50 to $70 to make sure and cover all the bases...I am
> > sure there's something I have forgotten to include and would hate
> > to say $50 and then realize I am going to have to eat $5 per
> > collection because I missed something obvious.
> >
> >> Like I mentioned to someone else, djvu files are just over 1/10th
> >> the
> >
> >size of pdf files.  The only reason the format didn't catch on
> > earlier is the patent holder wanted absurd license fees.  That has
> > changed and the format is now being adopted by many libraries and
> > online archives.
> >
> >>  Plus there are many open source viewers and utilities.
> >> See info here:
> >> http://www.djvuzone.org/
> >
> >I will look more closely at DjVU.  At this point I am not 100% wed
> > to .pdf if there is a better cross platform solution, but my
> > understanding has been that DjVU files lack many of the features
> > that .pdfs have such as embedded links, bookmarks, etc.  The
> > viewers seem to be mostly browser based and I have not had the
> > extensive experience I have had with .pdf to be able to compare
> > apples with apples.
> >
> >Anyone have anything to add on this?  Would DjVU be the better
> > choice overall and support all of the following features:
> >
> > - Freely available viewers for Windows, Unix, and OSX
> > - Embedded document linking
> > - Bookmarks
> > - Image zoom
> >
> >> Frankly, a search over 8 disks isn't very practical for me and I
> >> really
> >
> >don't want that much old stuff taking up space on my hard drive.  I
> >wouldn't mind a more limited database search based on
> >
> >> keywords on my hard drive.  Possibly classify articles by which
> >> have
> >
> >programs or not, which programs are games, business, ads, Basic,
> >assembly, hardware or whatever.  I often remember an article and
> > want
> >
> >The plan is to provide an index in both .pdf and full text formats.
> > Each disc would also have an index of what is on the DVD itself
> > that has live links to articles on the disc - click on a link and
> > it would open up the correct .pdf and go to the correct page.
> >
> >We are also going to do what I have been calling a "one pass" OCR
> > that will be a quick and dirty OCR of all the issues.  These will
> > be provided in text only format.  I have been kicking around
> > letting Acrobat do it's own OCR as well so that there would be a
> > way to search the .pdf documents, but the OCR would be limited to
> > what it found on it's first pass without any post production
> > corrections.
> >
> >Regards,
> >Michael Harwood
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Brought to you by the 6809, the 6803 and their cousins!
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> 
> --
> Cheers, Gene
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> 99.35% setiathome rank, not too shabby for a WV hillbilly
> Yahoo.com and AOL/TW attorneys please note, additions to the above
> message by Gene Heskett are:
> Copyright 2005 by Maurice Eugene Heskett, all rights reserved.
> 
> 
> Brought to you by the 6809, the 6803 and their cousins!
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brought to you by the 6809, the 6803 and their cousins! 
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> 
> <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
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> 
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>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 5
> Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 19:51:55 -0000
> From: "James Diffendaffer" <jdiffendaffer at yahoo.com>
> Subject: [Coco] Re: [Color Computer] Fw: Copyright
> To: ColorComputer at yahoogroups.com
> Message-ID: <dap9sr+ep9n at eGroups.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> 
> --- In ColorComputer at yahoogroups.com, "Leonard Miller"
> <leonard23 at v...> wrote:
> > 
> > I assume that we can always copy the original over to the media
> format we
> > like after making the purchase?  That takes care of the single
> versus dual
> > layer debate.
> > 
> > Leonard
> 
> 
> Good point... I do have a dual layer burner (not that I've purchased
> any dual layer blanks yet).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brought to you by the 6809, the 6803 and their cousins! 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
>     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ColorComputer/
> 
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>     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 6
> Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 20:02:08 -0000
> From: "James the Animal Tamer" <emucompboy at yahoo.com>
> Subject: [Coco] Re: [Color Computer] Fw: Copyright
> To: ColorComputer at yahoogroups.com
> Message-ID: <dapag0+kqnf at eGroups.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> 
> > The key word is innovation.  Now, if anyone writes a story 
> involving a 
> > mouse, Disney will exert sufficient pressure to quash the work, and 
> > another promiseing author of childrens books or such will be 
> flipping 
> > burgers at McD's.
> 
> Dunno.  I liked Mrs. Frisbee and the Rats of NIMH (although the movie 
> based on it had a suck-big-time ending).
> 
> > Mickey Mouse should have reverted to the public domain 40 years 
> ago.  
> 
> I'd disagree with you here.  I think the intellectual property that 
> is actively being used by the original owner or heir should be 
> retained by the owner or heir (so, no, I am not planning on writing a 
> Winnie The Pooh book, and I don't think you should be either).
> 
> What I'd like is for there to be a reasonable "if it's been out of 
> print for x years, it should become public domain" law.
> 
> Of course, I'm biased.  I have copyrighted software up for download 
> on my website, some of which I don't have permission for.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brought to you by the 6809, the 6803 and their cousins! 
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> 
> <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
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> 
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> 
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>     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 7
> Date: Sat, 09 Jul 2005 20:26:08 -0000
> From: "James Diffendaffer" <jdiffendaffer at yahoo.com>
> Subject: [Coco] [Color Computer] Re: DjVU
> To: ColorComputer at yahoogroups.com
> Message-ID: <dapbt0+li5b at eGroups.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> 
> --- In ColorComputer at yahoogroups.com, "Michael Wayne Harwood"
> <michael at m...> wrote:
> > I have done some looking at DjVU and I am impressed!  Everything I
> want to
> > do with .pdf can be done as well with DjVU but there may be a price
> to be
> > paid for the format's youth....
> 
> Actually, it's been around for some time.  I saw a demo of their
> fractal video compression back in the *early* 90's and even worked on
> a project that was supposed to move military training videos from
> video disk to CD.  I know they also had image compression as well as
> video at that time.  
> 
> They were using a plug in hardware card at that time to speed up
> compression.  I *think* 386/486 machines were the machines it was
> running on, CD drives were expensive and compression took days or
> weeks... which are good reasons the technology didn't become popular
> right away.
> 
> I don't know what happened to the project after I quit due to the
> company not paying me.  (Funny how many companies there are like that)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Brought to you by the 6809, the 6803 and their cousins! 
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> 
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> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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