From me at addlepated.net Wed Jun 3 14:40:56 2009 From: me at addlepated.net (D. Cook) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 13:40:56 -0500 Subject: [arg_discuss] Dave Szulborski tribute Message-ID: Hey folks - Michelle Senderhauf (Varin) and I are going to be doing a tribute to Dave Szulborski at this year's ARGFest. To that end, we're asking that if you have a free moment and a video camera to please record a quick memory of Dave and send it to us for inclusion. It doesn't need to be anything fancy. Whether you worked with him, played one of his games, read his book, or were inspired by him somehow, we would love to hear from all of you. We'll do the editing, so don't worry about that. We just ask that you send either me (me at addlepated.net) or Michelle (varineq at gmail.com) your video by June 20 so that we have time to get it done. If you need more time, contact us privately. :) Also, Joseph Matheny is working on a documentary about Dave for Joe's company, PilotLite, and might like to use some of these tributes in the film, so please let us know if you would be amenable to that (as well as us putting the ARGFest piece up for download) when you contact us. If you happen to know any of his colleagues who aren't on this list who might be interested in participating, please spread the word. Thanks! Dee Cook From wendeth at wendydespain.com Wed Jun 3 15:37:34 2009 From: wendeth at wendydespain.com (Wendy Despain) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 12:37:34 -0700 Subject: [arg_discuss] Dave Szulborski tribute In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <09fea23e7143afdc2971c720ec1ee7cd.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> This sounds great. Is some version of this tribute also going up on the IGDA Memorials project? Or did that project fall through the cracks? Wendy Despain quantumcontent.com On Wed, June 3, 2009 11:40 am, D. Cook wrote: > Hey folks - > > Michelle Senderhauf (Varin) and I are going to be doing a tribute to > Dave Szulborski at this year's ARGFest. To that end, we're asking > that if you have a free moment and a video camera to please record a > quick memory of Dave and send it to us for inclusion. It doesn't need > to be anything fancy. Whether you worked with him, played one of his > games, read his book, or were inspired by him somehow, we would love > to hear from all of you. > > We'll do the editing, so don't worry about that. We just ask that you > send either me (me at addlepated.net) or Michelle (varineq at gmail.com) > your video by June 20 so that we have time to get it done. If you > need more time, contact us privately. :) > > Also, Joseph Matheny is working on a documentary about Dave for Joe's > company, PilotLite, and might like to use some of these tributes in > the film, so please let us know if you would be amenable to that (as > well as us putting the ARGFest piece up for download) when you contact > us. > > If you happen to know any of his colleagues who aren't on this list > who might be interested in participating, please spread the word. > > Thanks! > Dee Cook > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > Wendy Despain quantumcontent.com From me at addlepated.net Wed Jun 3 15:48:18 2009 From: me at addlepated.net (D. Cook) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 14:48:18 -0500 Subject: [arg_discuss] Dave Szulborski tribute In-Reply-To: <09fea23e7143afdc2971c720ec1ee7cd.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> References: <09fea23e7143afdc2971c720ec1ee7cd.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> Message-ID: <8828A86E-8894-461E-829D-D2C47007E20F@addlepated.net> Oh gosh, in all the confusion in late April I completely let this slip. I'll put it straight into my "pending" stack and see what I can do with it. Thanks for the reminder! -D, On Jun 3, 2009, at 2:37 PM, Wendy Despain wrote: > This sounds great. > > Is some version of this tribute also going up on the IGDA Memorials > project? Or did that project fall through the cracks? > > Wendy Despain > quantumcontent.com > From brooke at mirlandano.com Wed Jun 3 18:31:28 2009 From: brooke at mirlandano.com (Brooke Thompson) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 18:31:28 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] ARGFest-O-Con 2009! In-Reply-To: <8828A86E-8894-461E-829D-D2C47007E20F@addlepated.net> References: <09fea23e7143afdc2971c720ec1ee7cd.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> <8828A86E-8894-461E-829D-D2C47007E20F@addlepated.net> Message-ID: <1F5F910A-F6C2-40EB-9551-6E6B187704FA@mirlandano.com> I noticed Dee's call for submissions for the tribute to Dave Szulborski and figured that I'd throw out some details for ARGFest for any of you that might not know about it and, also, urge you guys to register :) This year's ARGFest is going to be in Portland, OR the weekend of July 17-19. If you haven't been to ARGFest before, you really should go! It's a casual and small conference which makes for a great opportunity to get to know people. Plus it's community organized (by Unfiction & ARGN) and tends to draw both players & designers which creates a really fun dynamic. It starts on Friday night with a cocktail party. On Saturday there are a handful of panels and speakers followed by a FestQuest (traditionally a puzzly scavenger hunt) and then dinner. Sunday is open to whatever, but folks usually gather for a "straggler's supper" and go off sightseeing or play games and such in smaller groups. The base of operations this year will be at the Courtyard Marriott. Details on this can be found on the ARGFest website, but they've given us a decent, but limited, discount on the rooms - so, if you're planning on going, I'd suggest booking your hotel room sooner rather than later. Panels & speakers are still being finalized (if you have any requests, ping me off list asap), but Brian Clark is going to be the Grand Inquisitor this year. Past keynotes have been given by Jane McGonigal, Elan Lee & Sean Stewart, and Dave Szulborski. If you or your company are interesting in sponsorship opportunities, now would be a great time to get in touch with the organizers! There are details for that on the website. Also, if you are wanting to distribute any materials or hold any sort of events or throw out any sort of clues for a game... you need to get in touch with the organizers as soon as you can (trust us! we've been there before and we're good at keeping secrets :)) For more information check out the ARGFest website: http://www.argfestocon.com To sponsor: http://www.argfestocon.com/sponsors/ To register: http://www.argfestocon.com/signup/ For hotel info: http://www.argfestocon.com/location/booking/ From bclark at gmdstudios.com Thu Jun 4 08:04:38 2009 From: bclark at gmdstudios.com (Brian Clark) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 08:04:38 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] ARGFest-O-Con 2009! In-Reply-To: <1F5F910A-F6C2-40EB-9551-6E6B187704FA@mirlandano.com> References: <09fea23e7143afdc2971c720ec1ee7cd.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com><8828A86E-8894-461E-829D-D2C47007E20F@addlepated.net> <1F5F910A-F6C2-40EB-9551-6E6B187704FA@mirlandano.com> Message-ID: >Panels & speakers are still being finalized ... but Brian >Clark is going to be the Grand Inquisitor this year. Brooke assures me that the one is not the cause of the other, or vice versa. From mmonello at campfirenyc.com Thu Jun 4 11:09:54 2009 From: mmonello at campfirenyc.com (Michael Monello) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 08:09:54 -0700 Subject: [arg_discuss] ARGFest-O-Con 2009! In-Reply-To: <1F5F910A-F6C2-40EB-9551-6E6B187704FA@mirlandano.com> Message-ID: I'm trying to shift some travel around to go, if only to watch Brian Clark give everyone hell while trying to stay out of the crossfire! Who else is going? -Mike --- Mike Monello Partner, Campfire 62 White Street, 3E New York, NY 10013 212-612-9600 http://www.campfirenyc.com From bbakiogl at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 11:14:44 2009 From: bbakiogl at gmail.com (Burcu Bakioglu) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 11:14:44 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] ARGFest-O-Con 2009! In-Reply-To: References: <1F5F910A-F6C2-40EB-9551-6E6B187704FA@mirlandano.com> Message-ID: Question: Why does everyone (including myself) change plans and decide to come to ARGfest when they find out that Brian is the Grand Inquisitor??? Actually, Jon Waite was joking around and saying that Brian was going to kill ARGs and dance on its grave, FYI... Seeing Brian dance on ARG's grave: Priceless... For everything else... there's Master Card :P b. On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 11:09 AM, Michael Monello wrote: > I'm trying to shift some travel around to go, if only to watch Brian Clark give everyone hell while trying to stay out of the crossfire! > > Who else is going? > > -Mike > > --- > Mike Monello > Partner, Campfire > 62 White Street, 3E > New York, NY 10013 > 212-612-9600 > http://www.campfirenyc.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > -- Thanks, Burcu S. Bakioglu, Ph.D. http://www.palefirer.com http://palefirer.com/blog/ Skype: PaleFireR AIM: PaleFireR -- "Congratulations! You're the first human to fail the Turing test." From jason at aporiacme.com Thu Jun 4 11:28:42 2009 From: jason at aporiacme.com (Jason Chrest) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 15:28:42 +0000 Subject: [arg_discuss] ARGFest-O-Con 2009! In-Reply-To: References: <1F5F910A-F6C2-40EB-9551-6E6B187704FA@mirlandano.com> Message-ID: <714922068-1244129285-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1452698652-@bxe1213.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> I HATE that I can't come this year :/ Have fun everyone :) Jason Chrest Aporia Cross-Media Entertainment, LLC. http://news.aporiacme.com Cell:(662)251-9312 jason at aporiacme.com -----Original Message----- From: Burcu Bakioglu Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 11:14:44 To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] ARGFest-O-Con 2009! Question: Why does everyone (including myself) change plans and decide to come to ARGfest when they find out that Brian is the Grand Inquisitor??? Actually, Jon Waite was joking around and saying that Brian was going to kill ARGs and dance on its grave, FYI... Seeing Brian dance on ARG's grave: Priceless... For everything else... there's Master Card :P b. On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 11:09 AM, Michael Monello wrote: > I'm trying to shift some travel around to go, if only to watch Brian Clark give everyone hell while trying to stay out of the crossfire! > > Who else is going? > > -Mike > > --- > Mike Monello > Partner, Campfire > 62 White Street, 3E > New York, NY 10013 > 212-612-9600 > http://www.campfirenyc.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > -- Thanks, Burcu S. Bakioglu, Ph.D. http://www.palefirer.com http://palefirer.com/blog/ Skype: PaleFireR AIM: PaleFireR -- "Congratulations! You're the first human to fail the Turing test." _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From mmonello at campfirenyc.com Thu Jun 4 11:28:59 2009 From: mmonello at campfirenyc.com (Michael Monello) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 08:28:59 -0700 Subject: [arg_discuss] ARGFest-O-Con 2009! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hahaha. I had another trip scheduled at the time and now that looks like it's shifting up a week giving me an opening, so for me the desire to go was always there. Clark dancing on ARG's grave is just icing on the cake! On 6/4/09 11:14 AM, "Burcu Bakioglu" wrote: Question: Why does everyone (including myself) change plans and decide to come to ARGfest when they find out that Brian is the Grand Inquisitor??? Actually, Jon Waite was joking around and saying that Brian was going to kill ARGs and dance on its grave, FYI... Seeing Brian dance on ARG's grave: Priceless... For everything else... there's Master Card :P b. On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 11:09 AM, Michael Monello wrote: > I'm trying to shift some travel around to go, if only to watch Brian Clark give everyone hell while trying to stay out of the crossfire! > > Who else is going? > > -Mike > > --- > Mike Monello > Partner, Campfire > 62 White Street, 3E > New York, NY 10013 > 212-612-9600 > http://www.campfirenyc.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > -- Thanks, Burcu S. Bakioglu, Ph.D. http://www.palefirer.com http://palefirer.com/blog/ Skype: PaleFireR AIM: PaleFireR -- "Congratulations! You're the first human to fail the Turing test." _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss --- Mike Monello Partner, Campfire 62 White Street, 3E New York, NY 10013 212-612-9600 http://www.campfirenyc.com From baroblik at videotron.ca Thu Jun 4 11:36:26 2009 From: baroblik at videotron.ca (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Genevi=E8ve_Cardin?=) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 11:36:26 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] ARGFest-O-Con 2009! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <35C32E07-F9B9-4D0F-969E-6A68DE0F2383@videotron.ca> I've already registered, but what a sell's pitch ! ;) Genevi?ve Cardin Baroblik Productions Inc. ARG / Cross-media experiences Web, Movies & TV Cell : (514) 924-TOUI (8684) www.baroblik.com On 09-06-04, at 11:28, Michael Monello wrote: > Hahaha. I had another trip scheduled at the time and now that looks > like it's shifting up a week giving me an opening, so for me the > desire to go was always there. > > Clark dancing on ARG's grave is just icing on the cake! > > > On 6/4/09 11:14 AM, "Burcu Bakioglu" wrote: > > Question: Why does everyone (including myself) change plans and decide > to come to ARGfest when they find out that Brian is the Grand > Inquisitor??? Actually, Jon Waite was joking around and saying that > Brian was going to kill ARGs and dance on its grave, FYI... > > Seeing Brian dance on ARG's grave: Priceless... For everything else... > there's Master Card :P > > b. > > On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 11:09 AM, Michael Monello > wrote: >> I'm trying to shift some travel around to go, if only to watch >> Brian Clark give everyone hell while trying to stay out of the >> crossfire! >> >> Who else is going? >> >> -Mike >> >> --- >> Mike Monello >> Partner, Campfire >> 62 White Street, 3E >> New York, NY 10013 >> 212-612-9600 >> http://www.campfirenyc.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >> > > > > -- > Thanks, > > Burcu S. Bakioglu, Ph.D. > > http://www.palefirer.com > http://palefirer.com/blog/ > Skype: PaleFireR > AIM: PaleFireR > > -- > "Congratulations! You're the first human to fail the Turing test." > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > > > --- > Mike Monello > Partner, Campfire > 62 White Street, 3E > New York, NY 10013 > 212-612-9600 > http://www.campfirenyc.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From bclark at gmdstudios.com Thu Jun 4 13:58:14 2009 From: bclark at gmdstudios.com (Brian Clark) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 13:58:14 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] ARGFest-O-Con 2009! In-Reply-To: References: <1F5F910A-F6C2-40EB-9551-6E6B187704FA@mirlandano.com> Message-ID: <53DEC94A653E45E3B480B53568277C39@Tricorder> For those not familiar with the "Grand Inquisitor" role that ARGFest started last year, it exists primarily to start out the questions for each panel with something remarkably ... well ... probing and cringe-worthy. Elan Lee, on kicking it off, pulled some remarkable stunts involving felt mustaches and beards and some wonderfully stabbing inquisitions. But I don't think he really captured the essence of "terror" that a Grand Inquisitor should provoke, especially against any of the creeping heresies that threaten the timeless unchanging purity of ARG. This seems like my real potential to expand the role that he carved for Grand Inquisitors: dispense fitting punishments for heresy, then we'll have some nice questions from the audience: "A 1578 handbook for inquisitors spelled out the purpose of inquisitorial penalties: ... quoniam punitio non refertur primo & per se in correctionem & bonum eius qui punitur, sed in bonum publicum ut alij terreantur, & a malis committendis avocentur. [Translation from the Latin: '... for punishment does not take place primarily and per se for the correction and good of the person punished, but for the public good in order that others may become terrified and weaned away from the evils they would commit.'] Yes ... terrify the public and wean them away from the evils each panel would commit ... through the dispensation of punishment. Such a solemn duty, but at least the Portland weather should be nice. :) Brian From rowan.lambelle at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 19:33:47 2009 From: rowan.lambelle at gmail.com (Rowan Lambelle) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 19:33:47 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] ARGFest-O-Con 2009! In-Reply-To: References: <1F5F910A-F6C2-40EB-9551-6E6B187704FA@mirlandano.com> Message-ID: <8fa670620906041633r194cdd06ud084c706c129e42d@mail.gmail.com> Mike, the reason I originally booked my tickets was because they announced Brian as the Grand Inquisitor on the ARG Netcast. I decided that I really couldn't miss seeing him mess with all the poor panelists. Of course, now I'm super excited that the Must Love Robots guys are going to be there. It'll be great to actually talk to them rather than their characters. Carie / Rowan On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 11:09 AM, Michael Monello wrote: > I'm trying to shift some travel around to go, if only to watch Brian Clark > give everyone hell while trying to stay out of the crossfire! > From jason at aporiacme.com Thu Jun 4 23:07:49 2009 From: jason at aporiacme.com (Jason Chrest) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 03:07:49 +0000 Subject: [arg_discuss] ARGFest-O-Con 2009! In-Reply-To: <53DEC94A653E45E3B480B53568277C39@Tricorder> References: <1F5F910A-F6C2-40EB-9551-6E6B187704FA@mirlandano.com><53DEC94A653E45E3B480B53568277C39@Tricorder> Message-ID: <809634104-1244171511-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-168880753-@bxe1213.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Ooohhhhh so glad I'm fortunate enough to no be a panelist with you up there Brian :P Jason Chrest Aporia Cross-Media Entertainment, LLC. http://news.aporiacme.com Cell:(662)251-9312 jason at aporiacme.com -----Original Message----- From: "Brian Clark" Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 13:58:14 To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] ARGFest-O-Con 2009! For those not familiar with the "Grand Inquisitor" role that ARGFest started last year, it exists primarily to start out the questions for each panel with something remarkably ... well ... probing and cringe-worthy. Elan Lee, on kicking it off, pulled some remarkable stunts involving felt mustaches and beards and some wonderfully stabbing inquisitions. But I don't think he really captured the essence of "terror" that a Grand Inquisitor should provoke, especially against any of the creeping heresies that threaten the timeless unchanging purity of ARG. This seems like my real potential to expand the role that he carved for Grand Inquisitors: dispense fitting punishments for heresy, then we'll have some nice questions from the audience: "A 1578 handbook for inquisitors spelled out the purpose of inquisitorial penalties: ... quoniam punitio non refertur primo & per se in correctionem & bonum eius qui punitur, sed in bonum publicum ut alij terreantur, & a malis committendis avocentur. [Translation from the Latin: '... for punishment does not take place primarily and per se for the correction and good of the person punished, but for the public good in order that others may become terrified and weaned away from the evils they would commit.'] Yes ... terrify the public and wean them away from the evils each panel would commit ... through the dispensation of punishment. Such a solemn duty, but at least the Portland weather should be nice. :) Brian _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From elanlee at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 10:36:55 2009 From: elanlee at gmail.com (Elan Lee) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 07:36:55 -0700 Subject: [arg_discuss] ARGFest-O-Con 2009! Message-ID: <35cc46690906050736n630c0f15ncc291d85448a4587@mail.gmail.com> Brian, we should have an official "handing off of the mustache procedure". Without ceremony, the title is just elaborate accusations and fake hair. Elan From bclark at gmdstudios.com Fri Jun 5 11:05:02 2009 From: bclark at gmdstudios.com (Brian Clark) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 11:05:02 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] ARGFest-O-Con 2009! In-Reply-To: <35cc46690906050736n630c0f15ncc291d85448a4587@mail.gmail.com> References: <35cc46690906050736n630c0f15ncc291d85448a4587@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <22FB1C5C9BC24F5BAA5E8E7456E69C42@Tricorder> > Without ceremony, the title is just elaborate accusations and fake hair. Who could possibly argue against such poetic persuasiveness? Perhaps, for hygiene's sake, we should make that more of a "retiring of the prior mustache to the ARG museum"? Brian From erin at panttaja.com Fri Jun 5 11:44:47 2009 From: erin at panttaja.com (Erin Panttaja) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 08:44:47 -0700 Subject: [arg_discuss] ARGFest-O-Con 2009! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I do wish I could make it this year. :| But have a blast, all! EM Panttaja erin at panttaja.com 707 235 2422 http://web.mit.edu/~erinp http://playwrightinthesecondrow.wordpress.com/ From agent.lex at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 15:22:25 2009 From: agent.lex at gmail.com (Agent Lex) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 20:22:25 +0100 Subject: [arg_discuss] ARGFest-O-Con 2009! In-Reply-To: <22FB1C5C9BC24F5BAA5E8E7456E69C42@Tricorder> References: <35cc46690906050736n630c0f15ncc291d85448a4587@mail.gmail.com> <22FB1C5C9BC24F5BAA5E8E7456E69C42@Tricorder> Message-ID: <4A297070.8020108@gmail.com> As current custodian of the moustache and honorary museum curator (since konamouse may not be back from Iraq in time) I was already planning on that :) Brian Clark wrote: >> Without ceremony, the title is just elaborate accusations and fake hair. >> > > Who could possibly argue against such poetic persuasiveness? Perhaps, for > hygiene's sake, we should make that more of a "retiring of the prior > mustache to the ARG museum"? > > Brian > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > From erin at panttaja.com Sat Jun 6 13:41:43 2009 From: erin at panttaja.com (Erin Panttaja) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 10:41:43 -0700 Subject: [arg_discuss] ARGFest-O-Con 2009! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7BDCC21D-9A20-49F3-8DFA-05D0732D4E0E@panttaja.com> I agree with Brian, here. He really should grow his own. All the truly evil inquisitors do... -Erin From elan at fourthwallstudios.com Sat Jun 6 14:46:16 2009 From: elan at fourthwallstudios.com (Elan Lee) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 11:46:16 -0700 Subject: [arg_discuss] ARGFest-O-Con 2009! Message-ID: <35cc46690906061146n2f4d36c5u5598d4d6d03f0615@mail.gmail.com> So glad to hear you have it Agent Lex! (Was wondering where I put that thing and what adventures it was getting into without me!) Elan From steve.vosloo at shuttleworthfoundation.org Tue Jun 9 04:25:53 2009 From: steve.vosloo at shuttleworthfoundation.org (Steve Vosloo) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 10:25:53 +0200 Subject: [arg_discuss] Budget and/or project plan for running an ARG Message-ID: <4A2E1C91.1060609@shuttleworthfoundation.org> Hi all, I'm putting together a project proposal for running a shortish ARG (2 weeks). Does anyone have an old budget that I can use as a starting point AND/OR a project plan. Thanks, Steve -- Steve Vosloo Fellow, 21st Century Learning The Shuttleworth Foundation Tel: +27 21 970 1240 Fax: +27 21 970 1241 Web: www.shuttleworthfoundation.org Blog: www.innovatingeducation.wordpress.com Personal: www.vosloo.net Twitter: www.twitter.com/stevevosloo Email disclaimer: wiki.tsf.org.za/EmailDisclaimer From camherst at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 13:31:40 2009 From: camherst at gmail.com (Christopher Amherst) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 13:31:40 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Question on IGDA Chapter policies Message-ID: <19849af80906091031v280a5974s66bcfa1b2f5acb8a@mail.gmail.com> Afternoon all, To preface my question, I'm asking it here for two reasons: 1) Someone here may be able to point me in the right direction or know it works OR 2) Someone may have localized knowledge of the situation. Having recently moved, I'm within the purview of the DC IGDA chapter. Given the area's penchant for policy, politics, arts, and culture, I would expect that one would be very likely to have ample networking (and professional development/educational) opportunities with people involved in ARG production and design. However, DC is listed as "restructuring" (IGDA's term for "in limbo"?). My question is: How does the "restructuring" process work for an IGDA regional chapter? Signed, Christopher From wendeth at wendydespain.com Tue Jun 9 15:14:08 2009 From: wendeth at wendydespain.com (Wendy Despain) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 12:14:08 -0700 Subject: [arg_discuss] Question on IGDA Chapter policies In-Reply-To: <19849af80906091031v280a5974s66bcfa1b2f5acb8a@mail.gmail.com> References: <19849af80906091031v280a5974s66bcfa1b2f5acb8a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1367462397ecf9075effe74760f31da4.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> Hmm. All the chapters are going through a certain amount of "restructuring" right now. They're getting set up so they can take advantage of IGDA's insurance and receive money from IGDA dues more easily. If there's contact info for a chapter leader I'd drop them an email to see what the status is. If there's no contact info, and you'd like to help get things jump-started I'm sure they would like to have another volunteer. :-) The person to email in that case (for right now) is probably joe at igda.org but would be the new IGDA Executive Director when that person is hired. Hope this helps. Wendy Despain Writing SIG Chair On Tue, June 9, 2009 10:31 am, Christopher Amherst wrote: > Afternoon all, > > To preface my question, I'm asking it here for two reasons: > 1) Someone here may be able to point me in the right direction or know > it works OR > 2) Someone may have localized knowledge of the situation. > > Having recently moved, I'm within the purview of the DC IGDA chapter. > Given the area's penchant for policy, politics, arts, and culture, I > would expect that one would be very likely to have ample networking > (and professional development/educational) opportunities with people > involved in ARG production and design. > > However, DC is listed as "restructuring" (IGDA's term for "in > limbo"?). > > My question is: > How does the "restructuring" process work for an IGDA regional > chapter? > > Signed, > Christopher > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > Wendy Despain quantumcontent.com From andrhia at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 13:05:53 2009 From: andrhia at gmail.com (Andrea Phillips) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 13:05:53 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Come Out & Play Message-ID: <5c799fd60906101005w3eb7d36dve0f9032922069fbc@mail.gmail.com> Anyone else coming to the Come Out and Play Festival in NYC this weekend? I'll be around for Saturday afternoon with my daughter... it would be lovely to see some of you there! -- Andrea Phillips http://www.deusexmachinatio.com Words * Culture * Interaction From deusexmachinatio at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 13:54:51 2009 From: deusexmachinatio at gmail.com (Andrea Phillips) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 13:54:51 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Budget and/or project plan for running an ARG In-Reply-To: <4A2E1C91.1060609@shuttleworthfoundation.org> References: <4A2E1C91.1060609@shuttleworthfoundation.org> Message-ID: <5c799fd60906101054h3b1e5340oc0ca515c4a52ab62@mail.gmail.com> Hi, Steve. Thanks for posting, it's a good question. On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 4:25 AM, Steve Vosloo wrote: > I'm putting together a project proposal for running a shortish ARG (2 > weeks). Does anyone have an old budget that I can use as a starting point > AND/OR a project plan. I think you might have a little trouble with this, simply because this type of information is often covered by NDAs. And the budget in particular is tricky because you have the shoestring volunteer-time-and-free-web-services kinds of ARGs, the million-dollar-plus ARGs, and every price point in between. But you're right, it would be really useful to have sample budgets and project plans available as a springboard... even if it's just a template with the numbers redacted. Does anybody have a sanitized version of such a thing they might be willing to share, or even post to ARGology? -- Andrea Phillips http://www.deusexmachinatio.com Words * Culture * Interaction From jeromy at 12thstreethouse.com Wed Jun 10 15:25:43 2009 From: jeromy at 12thstreethouse.com (Jeromy Barber) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 14:25:43 -0500 Subject: [arg_discuss] Budget and/or project plan for running an ARG In-Reply-To: <5c799fd60906101054h3b1e5340oc0ca515c4a52ab62@mail.gmail.com> References: <4A2E1C91.1060609@shuttleworthfoundation.org> <5c799fd60906101054h3b1e5340oc0ca515c4a52ab62@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <000001c9ea01$3fcbd680$bf638380$@com> I don't have one for ARGs. I budgeted many a film when I lived in NYC, and it's my opinion that you have to be starting with a budget to find a form that would make sense for your project. Because ARGs have such diverse and innovative experiences, it's going to be tough to find a boilerplate budget with standardized line items with predictable costs. For instance, if you don't have any money and are working with volunteers, then there is no budget. If you have $5000 for your game, then you plan your ARG with those limitations in mind. You get rid of 25 web site design plans and go with 3 instead. If you are dealing with a larger budget than that, then I recommend hiring someone to help with the budgeting. Jeromy -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Andrea Phillips Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 12:55 PM To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] Budget and/or project plan for running an ARG Hi, Steve. Thanks for posting, it's a good question. On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 4:25 AM, Steve Vosloo wrote: > I'm putting together a project proposal for running a shortish ARG (2 > weeks). Does anyone have an old budget that I can use as a starting point > AND/OR a project plan. I think you might have a little trouble with this, simply because this type of information is often covered by NDAs. And the budget in particular is tricky because you have the shoestring volunteer-time-and-free-web-services kinds of ARGs, the million-dollar-plus ARGs, and every price point in between. But you're right, it would be really useful to have sample budgets and project plans available as a springboard... even if it's just a template with the numbers redacted. Does anybody have a sanitized version of such a thing they might be willing to share, or even post to ARGology? -- Andrea Phillips http://www.deusexmachinatio.com Words * Culture * Interaction _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From gmartin at myndcastmedia.com Thu Jun 11 09:25:39 2009 From: gmartin at myndcastmedia.com (G.C. Martin) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 06:25:39 -0700 Subject: [arg_discuss] Recruiting (Experience Design RFP) Message-ID: <002101c9ea98$1d4bdf50$57e39df0$@com> Hello everyone, I'm excited to submit this RFP to the group for events that we are looking to hold in the fall of this year targeting high schoolers across the country. The opportunity surrounds two of my clients, 206, Inc. and Milk Media - the summary and opportunity details are below for your review. If you are interested in submitting, please have your proposal to me by Noon PDT on Wednesday, June 24, 2009. Thank you in advance of your review and please contact me directly with any questions that you may have. --- Action: Request for Proposal - Experience Designers Companies: Myndcast Media, 206, Inc., Milk Media/MilkRocks.com Start date: Fall, 09 Country + Town: USA (Minimum top ten markets) Remote working OK? Yes Contract/Permanent? Contract Recruiter name: Greg Martin Contact email / phone: gmartin at myndcastmedia.com | 206.274.1636 Description: See below For those who don't know me, my name is Greg Martin, principal of Myndcast Media, a new media sales and production company based in the Seattle area. One of my clients is a lifestyle marketing firm called, 206, Inc. Stay with me now, one of 206's clients is Milk Media who owns the MilkRocks.com brand and has tasked 206 with selling programs to brands which give them exposure on millions of milk carton side panels, posters and book covers distributed to K-12 schools across the country as well as title sponsorships of live events (concerts, action sports exhibitions, etc.) which are held at these schools. Phew. I was hired by 206 to build out their sponsorship development department (read: sales group) and for this client in particular (Milk Media), put together live events that will: 1) Be held at a minimum of 10 markets across the country - the preference would be to have the events held on school grounds (gymnasiums, football stadiums, etc.) so additional venue rental fees won't apply, however, if the concept requires a larger venue, this hard cost would definitely be considered. 2) Tie back to a theme of health and nutrition - doesn't have to hit the kids over the head with the messaging, but this theme is how we can gain exclusive access to the schools and the administrators welcome us with open arms. The side panels, posters, book covers can also be used for message distribution to the kids/participants. 3) Generate excitement in the communities where the events are held so the sponsors get a lot of value, the kids are given an amazing experience and the regional dairy groups are pleased that Milk is involved in something new and dare I say, cool. Boundaries? There aren't any aside from the fact that this will most likely be an experience best built for high schoolers. Beyond that, any experience will be considered. Events that have been done in the past have been concerts in school cafeterias and exhibitions out on playgrounds, but I'm looking to take this in a new direction. I'm not interested in putting on cafeteria shows, but since we have direct access to thousands of kids who are craving something new, I felt that this client was ready to see some of the creative work that the top Experience Designers in the world put together. So, there's the opportunity. Let me be clear, you will be paid for this if the event is greenlit, so please put your best foot forward in terms of bid pricing and design proposals. Major brands will be presented the opportunity to sponsor the experience and the events as well, so feel free to submit covert brand integrations if the mood strikes you. You may submit your proposal in any format and if you have specific questions, please don't hesitate to call me direct at 206.274.1636 or shoot me a mail at gmartin at myndcastmedia.com. Thank you for your time, I look forward to hearing from you. Best, Greg --- G.C. Martin Direct 206 274 1636 | Mobile 206 200 4373 gmartin at myndcastmedia.com Skype: myndcastmedia Twitter: myndcastmedia Blog: myndcastmedia.wordpress.com From steve.vosloo at shuttleworthfoundation.org Thu Jun 11 10:48:43 2009 From: steve.vosloo at shuttleworthfoundation.org (Steve Vosloo) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:48:43 +0200 Subject: [arg_discuss] Budget and/or project plan for running an ARG In-Reply-To: <5c799fd60906101054h3b1e5340oc0ca515c4a52ab62@mail.gmail.com> References: <4A2E1C91.1060609@shuttleworthfoundation.org> <5c799fd60906101054h3b1e5340oc0ca515c4a52ab62@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A31194B.4080802@shuttleworthfoundation.org> Thanks Andrea. Yes, it'll need to be sanitized/white-labeled ... and yes, ARGs have many different permutations, but there must be some general across-the-board activities, e.g. Plan Create content Market Publish content Manage gameplay Close/debrief These headings, and the many sub-sections in each, will be a kind of check-list to make sure we don't miss out key activities when budgeting. Thanks, Steve Andrea Phillips wrote: > Hi, Steve. Thanks for posting, it's a good question. > > On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 4:25 AM, Steve > Vosloo wrote: > > >> I'm putting together a project proposal for running a shortish ARG (2 >> weeks). Does anyone have an old budget that I can use as a starting point >> AND/OR a project plan. >> > > I think you might have a little trouble with this, simply because this > type of information is often covered by NDAs. And the budget in > particular is tricky because you have the shoestring > volunteer-time-and-free-web-services kinds of ARGs, the > million-dollar-plus ARGs, and every price point in between. > > But you're right, it would be really useful to have sample budgets and > project plans available as a springboard... even if it's just a > template with the numbers redacted. Does anybody have a sanitized > version of such a thing they might be willing to share, or even post > to ARGology? > > -- Steve Vosloo Fellow, 21st Century Learning The Shuttleworth Foundation Tel: +27 21 970 1240 Fax: +27 21 970 1241 Web: www.shuttleworthfoundation.org Blog: www.innovatingeducation.wordpress.com Personal: www.vosloo.net Twitter: www.twitter.com/stevevosloo Project: www.mlearningafrica.net Email disclaimer: wiki.tsf.org.za/EmailDisclaimer From steve.vosloo at shuttleworthfoundation.org Thu Jun 11 10:52:02 2009 From: steve.vosloo at shuttleworthfoundation.org (Steve Vosloo) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:52:02 +0200 Subject: [arg_discuss] Budget and/or project plan for running an ARG In-Reply-To: <000001c9ea01$3fcbd680$bf638380$@com> References: <4A2E1C91.1060609@shuttleworthfoundation.org> <5c799fd60906101054h3b1e5340oc0ca515c4a52ab62@mail.gmail.com> <000001c9ea01$3fcbd680$bf638380$@com> Message-ID: <4A311A12.1020200@shuttleworthfoundation.org> Thanks Jeromy. This is all true. I guess I was hoping to get an overview of the key activities -- like "develop websites" ... whether it's 3 or 25, and whether they're commercially designed or done by volunteers is something that will vary from project to project. But at least that key activity has a place in the project plan and budget. Jeromy Barber wrote: > I don't have one for ARGs. I budgeted many a film when I lived in NYC, and > it's my opinion that you have to be starting with a budget to find a form > that would make sense for your project. Because ARGs have such diverse and > innovative experiences, it's going to be tough to find a boilerplate budget > with standardized line items with predictable costs. > > For instance, if you don't have any money and are working with volunteers, > then there is no budget. If you have $5000 for your game, then you plan > your ARG with those limitations in mind. You get rid of 25 web site design > plans and go with 3 instead. If you are dealing with a larger budget than > that, then I recommend hiring someone to help with the budgeting. > > Jeromy > > -----Original Message----- > From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On > Behalf Of Andrea Phillips > Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 12:55 PM > To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG > Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] Budget and/or project plan for running an ARG > > Hi, Steve. Thanks for posting, it's a good question. > > On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 4:25 AM, Steve > Vosloo wrote: > > >> I'm putting together a project proposal for running a shortish ARG (2 >> weeks). Does anyone have an old budget that I can use as a starting point >> AND/OR a project plan. >> > > I think you might have a little trouble with this, simply because this > type of information is often covered by NDAs. And the budget in > particular is tricky because you have the shoestring > volunteer-time-and-free-web-services kinds of ARGs, the > million-dollar-plus ARGs, and every price point in between. > > But you're right, it would be really useful to have sample budgets and > project plans available as a springboard... even if it's just a > template with the numbers redacted. Does anybody have a sanitized > version of such a thing they might be willing to share, or even post > to ARGology? > > -- Steve Vosloo Fellow, 21st Century Learning The Shuttleworth Foundation Tel: +27 21 970 1240 Fax: +27 21 970 1241 Web: www.shuttleworthfoundation.org Blog: www.innovatingeducation.wordpress.com Personal: www.vosloo.net Twitter: www.twitter.com/stevevosloo Project: www.mlearningafrica.net Email disclaimer: wiki.tsf.org.za/EmailDisclaimer From mmonello at campfirenyc.com Thu Jun 11 11:00:03 2009 From: mmonello at campfirenyc.com (Michael Monello) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 08:00:03 -0700 Subject: [arg_discuss] Budget and/or project plan for running an ARG In-Reply-To: <4A311A12.1020200@shuttleworthfoundation.org> Message-ID: I understand what you are getting at, but the pieces are tied to tactics, and tactically, ARGs are all over the place. Each element within an ARG will generally have some kind of systematized budgeting & production process, so you basically take your tactics and run them through that: Video/film production Application development Website development Live performance/events Book publishing Etc. At the end of the day. Schedule often determines budget, so I suggest you attack larger productions with some serious project planning, use a Gantt chart and then work out your budgets based on the relationships you've identified in the Gannt. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gantt_chart Mike On 6/11/09 10:52 AM, "Steve Vosloo" wrote: Thanks Jeromy. This is all true. I guess I was hoping to get an overview of the key activities -- like "develop websites" ... whether it's 3 or 25, and whether they're commercially designed or done by volunteers is something that will vary from project to project. But at least that key activity has a place in the project plan and budget. Jeromy Barber wrote: > I don't have one for ARGs. I budgeted many a film when I lived in NYC, and > it's my opinion that you have to be starting with a budget to find a form > that would make sense for your project. Because ARGs have such diverse and > innovative experiences, it's going to be tough to find a boilerplate budget > with standardized line items with predictable costs. > > For instance, if you don't have any money and are working with volunteers, > then there is no budget. If you have $5000 for your game, then you plan > your ARG with those limitations in mind. You get rid of 25 web site design > plans and go with 3 instead. If you are dealing with a larger budget than > that, then I recommend hiring someone to help with the budgeting. > > Jeromy > > -----Original Message----- > From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On > Behalf Of Andrea Phillips > Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 12:55 PM > To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG > Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] Budget and/or project plan for running an ARG > > Hi, Steve. Thanks for posting, it's a good question. > > On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 4:25 AM, Steve > Vosloo wrote: > > >> I'm putting together a project proposal for running a shortish ARG (2 >> weeks). Does anyone have an old budget that I can use as a starting point >> AND/OR a project plan. >> > > I think you might have a little trouble with this, simply because this > type of information is often covered by NDAs. And the budget in > particular is tricky because you have the shoestring > volunteer-time-and-free-web-services kinds of ARGs, the > million-dollar-plus ARGs, and every price point in between. > > But you're right, it would be really useful to have sample budgets and > project plans available as a springboard... even if it's just a > template with the numbers redacted. Does anybody have a sanitized > version of such a thing they might be willing to share, or even post > to ARGology? > > -- Steve Vosloo Fellow, 21st Century Learning The Shuttleworth Foundation Tel: +27 21 970 1240 Fax: +27 21 970 1241 Web: www.shuttleworthfoundation.org Blog: www.innovatingeducation.wordpress.com Personal: www.vosloo.net Twitter: www.twitter.com/stevevosloo Project: www.mlearningafrica.net Email disclaimer: wiki.tsf.org.za/EmailDisclaimer _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss --- Mike Monello Partner, Campfire 62 White Street, 3E New York, NY 10013 212-612-9600 http://www.campfirenyc.com From wendeth at wendydespain.com Fri Jun 12 17:50:11 2009 From: wendeth at wendydespain.com (Wendy Despain) Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2009 14:50:11 -0700 Subject: [arg_discuss] Budget and/or project plan for running an ARG In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5e21dbc0db2b9f6c1a3e6370b9b5aeaa.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> Just thought I'd share that my ARG planning charts usually end up looking more like the one on this page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Event_chain_diagram but I don't use project planning software to do it. I usually have to draw it out by hand as it's very very customized to the game. I included a sanitized chart (for an ARG that died before it was produced) with my chapter in the last IGDA Writing SIG book. The chapter is called "Writing for ARGs." It has a bit about planning in there too. http://www.amazon.com/Writing-Video-Game-Genres-FPS/dp/1568814178/ref=pd_sim_b_4 Wendy Despain quantumcontent.com On Thu, June 11, 2009 8:00 am, Michael Monello wrote: > I understand what you are getting at, but the pieces are tied to > tactics, and tactically, ARGs are all over the place. Each element > within an ARG will generally have some kind of systematized budgeting > & production process, so you basically take your tactics and run them > through that: > > Video/film production > Application development > Website development > Live performance/events > Book publishing > Etc. > > At the end of the day. Schedule often determines budget, so I suggest > you attack larger productions with some serious project planning, use > a Gantt chart and then work out your budgets based on the > relationships you've identified in the Gannt. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gantt_chart > > Mike > > On 6/11/09 10:52 AM, "Steve Vosloo" > wrote: > > Thanks Jeromy. This is all true. > > I guess I was hoping to get an overview of the key activities -- like > "develop websites" ... whether it's 3 or 25, and whether they're > commercially designed or done by volunteers is something that will > vary > from project to project. But at least that key activity has a place in > the project plan and budget. > > > > Jeromy Barber wrote: >> I don't have one for ARGs. I budgeted many a film when I lived in >> NYC, and >> it's my opinion that you have to be starting with a budget to find a >> form >> that would make sense for your project. Because ARGs have such >> diverse and >> innovative experiences, it's going to be tough to find a boilerplate >> budget >> with standardized line items with predictable costs. >> >> For instance, if you don't have any money and are working with >> volunteers, >> then there is no budget. If you have $5000 for your game, then you >> plan >> your ARG with those limitations in mind. You get rid of 25 web site >> design >> plans and go with 3 instead. If you are dealing with a larger >> budget than >> that, then I recommend hiring someone to help with the budgeting. >> >> Jeromy >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org >> [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On >> Behalf Of Andrea Phillips >> Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 12:55 PM >> To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG >> Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] Budget and/or project plan for running an >> ARG >> >> Hi, Steve. Thanks for posting, it's a good question. >> >> On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 4:25 AM, Steve >> Vosloo wrote: >> >> >>> I'm putting together a project proposal for running a shortish ARG >>> (2 >>> weeks). Does anyone have an old budget that I can use as a starting >>> point >>> AND/OR a project plan. >>> >> >> I think you might have a little trouble with this, simply because >> this >> type of information is often covered by NDAs. And the budget in >> particular is tricky because you have the shoestring >> volunteer-time-and-free-web-services kinds of ARGs, the >> million-dollar-plus ARGs, and every price point in between. >> >> But you're right, it would be really useful to have sample budgets >> and >> project plans available as a springboard... even if it's just a >> template with the numbers redacted. Does anybody have a sanitized >> version of such a thing they might be willing to share, or even post >> to ARGology? >> >> > > -- > Steve Vosloo > Fellow, 21st Century Learning > The Shuttleworth Foundation > > Tel: +27 21 970 1240 > Fax: +27 21 970 1241 > Web: www.shuttleworthfoundation.org > > Blog: www.innovatingeducation.wordpress.com > Personal: www.vosloo.net > Twitter: www.twitter.com/stevevosloo > > Project: www.mlearningafrica.net > > Email disclaimer: wiki.tsf.org.za/EmailDisclaimer > > > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > > > --- > Mike Monello > Partner, Campfire > 62 White Street, 3E > New York, NY 10013 > 212-612-9600 > http://www.campfirenyc.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > Wendy Despain quantumcontent.com From thomas.maillioux at gmail.com Tue Jun 16 14:11:12 2009 From: thomas.maillioux at gmail.com (Thomas Maillioux) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 20:11:12 +0200 Subject: [arg_discuss] Introductory post - Bonjour IGDA ARG SIG ! Message-ID: <25de1e4f0906161111k60d7092ex9f87cc2f28e7a39e@mail.gmail.com> Hello everyone ! I've been reading the archives of this list on and off but have been holding off joining until I'd feel I had something significant to add to the conversations, which I think might finally be the case ! And now it's time to introduce myself officially. My name's Tom Maillioux and alongside with working as a teacher-librarian, I've been playing a variety of games - spanning over Alternate and Not-So-Alternate Realities - and was invited to join aboard the Operation : Sleeper Cell ship one year ago. The few months of hard work that goes into organizing a game such as this one gave me a taste of how complicated, challenging and fascinating the process of getting people from very different fields to work together can be, and after this experience I started looking more seriously at what games and innovative programs centered on "serious gaming" and hacking everyday life objects to bring to a sometimes all-too-absent "wow factor" back to school But the project most related to this list for me these days is "Fais-moi Jouer !", a website my partner in crime Julien Aubert and I have been working for the last few months now, trying to put together and update as often as possible a website dedicated to Alternate Reality Games and gaming experiments for the French-speaking audience. We've done our best to keep our readers updated with news on a variety of subjects from the latest games and festivals to offering interviews of designers as well as trying to retrace the steps of the "culture" of ARGs as it emerged. There is lots, lots of work to do not only to develop the French audience's awareness but also reach out to communities and persons that would be interested in this new way to interact with a new to experience - and tell one's own - stories. I'm looking forward to participating to the discussions in this group and hopefully do what we can to help spread Alternate Reality Games and all they have to bring in terms of gameplay storytelling and Barney Stinson-levels of awesomeness across the world, French-speaking or otherwise. I'm looking forward to meeting/chatting/exchanging ideas with all of you as soon as possible ! T. --- http://www.faismoijouer.com http://www.tommaillioux.fr From julien at extralab.fr Tue Jun 16 14:38:01 2009 From: julien at extralab.fr (Julien Aubert) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 20:38:01 +0200 Subject: [arg_discuss] Introductory post - Bonjour IGDA ARG SIG ! In-Reply-To: <25de1e4f0906161111k60d7092ex9f87cc2f28e7a39e@mail.gmail.com> References: <25de1e4f0906161111k60d7092ex9f87cc2f28e7a39e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46c4cdce0906161138s1813f65s8bc1ee08a178e4e9@mail.gmail.com> Hello everyone, My name is Julien Aubert. I'm currently working in Second Life as a a community manager. The people who know me well often say I'm demolecularized in Social Networks. Before that, I've been a camp counselor for five years and a student in marketing. I always wanted to play music or make movies, I guess I love the same way ARGs bring people somewhere else. I discovered ARGs in early 2008. Since then I didn't stop "lurking" on many games as I could. And I have often been surprised by the creativity game-designers put onto their games (sorry if I'm over-flattering). I like the big names but also the little initatives that make this new field of entertainment so exciting. As you do, I found it very difficult to actually name the many forms reality tweaking takes. I prefer myself use the term : interactive adventures. I suscribed to the list last September. Like Thomas, I didn't feel the right time to introduce myself since today. Reading all of you during those months helped me becoming more passionated about innovating in game-design and so I looked for a way to transmit this passion. I created Fais Moi Jouer with Mr Bookmore because we wish to create and animate a community of ARG players. We don't only focus on ARGs. We also deal with games that we qualify cross-media, geo-location based, urban, casual, extended-experiences... For that, we publish news but we will soon make players and gamers talk about what is fun in this new kind of gaming. Soon, we will publish video interviews of the guyz behind Can You Stop It ? (Guillaume Charny-Brunet and Renaud Therry), Mazda 33 keys (St?phane Raymond and Thomas Pintal), Dollplay (Christopher Sandberg) and the Rivard Project (Genevi?ve Cardin) [waves for those who are on this list ^^ ]. We really would like to find a way to constitute a real devil team of players. So,we are now looking for other french speaking players. If you know some, please put us in touch ;) @faismoijouer @juli3n --------- julien aubert +33618931813 @juli3n On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 8:11 PM, Thomas Maillioux < thomas.maillioux at gmail.com> wrote: > Hello everyone ! > > I've been reading the archives of this list on and off but have been > holding > off joining until I'd feel I had something significant to add to the > conversations, which I think might finally be the case ! And now it's time > to introduce myself officially. > > My name's Tom Maillioux and alongside with working as a teacher-librarian, > I've been playing a variety of games - spanning over Alternate and > Not-So-Alternate Realities - and was invited to join aboard the Operation : > Sleeper Cell ship one year ago. The few months of hard work that goes into > organizing a game such as this one gave me a taste of how complicated, > challenging and fascinating the process of getting people from very > different fields to work together can be, and after this experience I > started looking more seriously at what games and innovative programs > centered on "serious gaming" and hacking everyday life objects to bring to > a > sometimes all-too-absent "wow factor" back to school > > But the project most related to this list for me these days is "Fais-moi > Jouer !", a website my partner in crime Julien Aubert and I have been > working for the last few months now, trying to put together and update as > often as possible a website dedicated to Alternate Reality Games and gaming > experiments for the French-speaking audience. We've done our best to keep > our readers updated with news on a variety of subjects from the latest > games > and festivals to offering interviews of designers as well as trying to > retrace the steps of the "culture" of ARGs as it emerged. There is lots, > lots of work to do not only to develop the French audience's awareness but > also reach out to communities and persons that would be interested in this > new way to interact with a new to experience - and tell one's own - > stories. > > I'm looking forward to participating to the discussions in this group and > hopefully do what we can to help spread Alternate Reality Games and all > they > have to bring in terms of gameplay storytelling and Barney Stinson-levels > of > awesomeness across the world, French-speaking or otherwise. > > I'm looking forward to meeting/chatting/exchanging ideas with all of you as > soon as possible ! > > T. > --- > http://www.faismoijouer.com > http://www.tommaillioux.fr > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > From deusexmachinatio at gmail.com Tue Jun 16 15:19:46 2009 From: deusexmachinatio at gmail.com (Andrea Phillips) Date: Tue, 16 Jun 2009 15:19:46 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Introductory post - Bonjour IGDA ARG SIG ! In-Reply-To: <46c4cdce0906161138s1813f65s8bc1ee08a178e4e9@mail.gmail.com> References: <25de1e4f0906161111k60d7092ex9f87cc2f28e7a39e@mail.gmail.com> <46c4cdce0906161138s1813f65s8bc1ee08a178e4e9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5c799fd60906161219p43b10eb0vcdccae0398e2e530@mail.gmail.com> Welcome, Julien and Thomas. Don't be shy, most of us don't bite. ^_^ -- Andrea Phillips http://www.deusexmachinatio.com Words * Culture * Interaction From thomas.maillioux at gmail.com Wed Jun 17 02:45:41 2009 From: thomas.maillioux at gmail.com (Thomas Maillioux) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 08:45:41 +0200 Subject: [arg_discuss] Introductory post - Bonjour IGDA ARG SIG ! In-Reply-To: <5c799fd60906161219p43b10eb0vcdccae0398e2e530@mail.gmail.com> References: <25de1e4f0906161111k60d7092ex9f87cc2f28e7a39e@mail.gmail.com> <46c4cdce0906161138s1813f65s8bc1ee08a178e4e9@mail.gmail.com> <5c799fd60906161219p43b10eb0vcdccae0398e2e530@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <25de1e4f0906162345i74321be9qdeb799bb8bdec16b@mail.gmail.com> Hi Andrea, Thanks for your welcome wishes. Although...What do you mean when you say "most of us" ? ;) T. 2009/6/16 Andrea Phillips > Welcome, Julien and Thomas. Don't be shy, most of us don't bite. ^_^ > > > -- > Andrea Phillips > http://www.deusexmachinatio.com > Words * Culture * Interaction From bclark at gmdstudios.com Wed Jun 17 08:21:17 2009 From: bclark at gmdstudios.com (Brian Clark) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 08:21:17 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Introductory post - Bonjour IGDA ARG SIG ! In-Reply-To: <25de1e4f0906162345i74321be9qdeb799bb8bdec16b@mail.gmail.com> References: <25de1e4f0906161111k60d7092ex9f87cc2f28e7a39e@mail.gmail.com> <46c4cdce0906161138s1813f65s8bc1ee08a178e4e9@mail.gmail.com> <5c799fd60906161219p43b10eb0vcdccae0398e2e530@mail.gmail.com> <25de1e4f0906162345i74321be9qdeb799bb8bdec16b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: She means Mike and I DO bite ... occasionally. Brooke is more of a gnawer. Brian From deusexmachinatio at gmail.com Wed Jun 17 08:51:09 2009 From: deusexmachinatio at gmail.com (Andrea Phillips) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 08:51:09 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Introductory post - Bonjour IGDA ARG SIG ! In-Reply-To: References: <25de1e4f0906161111k60d7092ex9f87cc2f28e7a39e@mail.gmail.com> <46c4cdce0906161138s1813f65s8bc1ee08a178e4e9@mail.gmail.com> <5c799fd60906161219p43b10eb0vcdccae0398e2e530@mail.gmail.com> <25de1e4f0906162345i74321be9qdeb799bb8bdec16b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5c799fd60906170551m7b77847xbe7a098d74a39d24@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 8:21 AM, Brian Clark wrote: > She means Mike and I DO bite ... occasionally. Brooke is more of a gnawer. > Only if your definition of "biting" means "pointing out the unpleasant inconsistencies in what you are talking about." :) -- Andrea Phillips http://www.deusexmachinatio.com Words * Culture * Interaction From julien at extralab.fr Wed Jun 17 11:05:04 2009 From: julien at extralab.fr (Julien Aubert) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 17:05:04 +0200 Subject: [arg_discuss] Introductory post - Bonjour IGDA ARG SIG ! In-Reply-To: <5c799fd60906170551m7b77847xbe7a098d74a39d24@mail.gmail.com> References: <25de1e4f0906161111k60d7092ex9f87cc2f28e7a39e@mail.gmail.com> <46c4cdce0906161138s1813f65s8bc1ee08a178e4e9@mail.gmail.com> <5c799fd60906161219p43b10eb0vcdccae0398e2e530@mail.gmail.com> <25de1e4f0906162345i74321be9qdeb799bb8bdec16b@mail.gmail.com> <5c799fd60906170551m7b77847xbe7a098d74a39d24@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46c4cdce0906170805h581fbc95rbcd652db706f2137@mail.gmail.com> Far from us the idea of being unpleasant. Thanks for welcoming Andrea and Brian. --------- julien aubert +33618931813 @juli3n On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 2:51 PM, Andrea Phillips wrote: > On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 8:21 AM, Brian Clark wrote: > > She means Mike and I DO bite ... occasionally. Brooke is more of a > gnawer. > > > > Only if your definition of "biting" means "pointing out the unpleasant > inconsistencies in what you are talking about." :) > > > -- > Andrea Phillips > http://www.deusexmachinatio.com > Words * Culture * Interaction > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > From andrhia at gmail.com Wed Jun 17 18:56:36 2009 From: andrhia at gmail.com (Andrea Phillips) Date: Wed, 17 Jun 2009 18:56:36 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] ARG SIG News Bulletin! Now With News! Message-ID: <5c799fd60906171556w354ae03erf1832cdba6841a66@mail.gmail.com> Please join me in welcoming Brooke Thompson, Wendy Despain and John Evans as part of the ARG SIG email list management team! What this means is: I've given these wonderful people the passwords for the list, so they can help out with tasks like unsubscribing spammers or telling you your email got stuck in a moderation queue; and in the case that I get hit by a bus, the keys to the kingdom are not lost forever, so to speak. Huzzah! I only said I'd do it a month ago! I did get a lot more volunteers for this job than it really called for, and I appreciate the generous spirit in which those offers were made. But never fear, you can still have your chance to help out with the SIG. There are still a number of tasks that need doing, and I'd like to propose we form three committees to handle them: * Care and feeding of ARGology, especially in terms of putting up new content. From time to time I think about putting something up, but don't want to step on anyone's toes! --And I bet other people feel that way, too. Clearly this needs sorting out. * Topics of the Week. Basically we need a mechanism for coming up with these and then sending them out. I think it's a fun idea, though, and we should definitely try to keep it up. * IRC chats. I've totally slacked off on keeping these running. We've had mixed success with our chats, partly because of a confusing time schedule. This was intended to make the IRC chats accessible to people in various time zones -- particularly in Australia (hi, Christy!) -- but the chats in off hours never really got any attendance. We need to work out a new schedule for these, and hopefully find a mechanism for sending out reminders. Post if you'd like to take part in any of these committees, and I'll look at interest and try to work out what the best method is for these committees to operate. Thanks for your patience, everyone! -- Andrea Phillips http://www.deusexmachinatio.com Words * Culture * Interaction From thomas.maillioux at gmail.com Thu Jun 18 15:25:20 2009 From: thomas.maillioux at gmail.com (Thomas Maillioux) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 21:25:20 +0200 Subject: [arg_discuss] ARG SIG News Bulletin! Now With News! In-Reply-To: <5c799fd60906171556w354ae03erf1832cdba6841a66@mail.gmail.com> References: <5c799fd60906171556w354ae03erf1832cdba6841a66@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <25de1e4f0906181225jcacdc37le3d8d7380ea7205@mail.gmail.com> Welcome Brooke, Wendy and John, and thanks for taking up with these tasks. As a newly active poster, it's nice to know that the list has a lively, evolving staff making sure it runs smoothly. Regarding committees one might be able to help with, I'd like to offer to help with the one dealing with IRC chats. I'm decently fluent in English, spend unhealthy amounts of time on IRC in general, and have been moderating channels here and there for a few years now. I'd be happy to give this a shot with whoever feels like joining strengths on the task of managing channel(s), keeping everyone up to speed on dates re. chats and topics and keeping minutes of significant chats for all to enjoy/learn from ! Best, T. P.S. : Andrea, do make sure you don't get hit by a bus ! I'm looking forward to many more years of interesting stories being told from you. 2009/6/18 Andrea Phillips > Please join me in welcoming Brooke Thompson, Wendy Despain and John > Evans as part of the ARG SIG email list management team! > (...) > > * IRC chats. I've totally slacked off on keeping these running. We've > had mixed success with our chats, partly because of a confusing time > schedule. This was intended to make the IRC chats accessible to people > in various time zones -- particularly in Australia (hi, Christy!) -- > but the chats in off hours never really got any attendance. We need to > work out a new schedule for these, and hopefully find a mechanism for > sending out reminders. > > Post if you'd like to take part in any of these committees, and I'll > look at interest and try to work out what the best method is for these > committees to operate. Thanks for your patience, everyone! > > -- > Andrea Phillips > http://www.deusexmachinatio.com > Words * Culture * Interaction > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > From brooke at giantmice.com Thu Jun 18 16:04:56 2009 From: brooke at giantmice.com (Brooke Thompson) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 16:04:56 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Deception and what it means to be Real Message-ID: <154C396A-1098-465E-BDBD-F5CDB8269F78@giantmice.com> For those not as glued to unfiction and ARGN as I am, there's been an "interesting development": Martin Aggett is a fictional character who planted himself heavily into the ARG community - so heavily that the guy behind it began to have second thoughts and when he decided he wanted to attend ARGFest he figured that would be the point of no return. However, before he came out, he had: * participated in discussions and played games on unfiction * helped with ARGdb * gone behind the scenes with a grassroots team developing a game * become friends with a number of people, beyond superficial game playing relationships * written an article for ARGN His account on unfiction was suspended and the last words on it were the author's apology: http://forums.unfiction.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=27985 ARGN has weighed in as well: http://www.argn.com/2009/06/getting_played/ Some fascinating stuff there that leads to a whole host of interesting questions. Things like: Is this just the nature of Alternate Reality Gaming - should we expect these things to happen? Is it ok for people to feel deceived (and can that be done in a positive way)? How do we make characters real? What are peoples reactions and what makes them different (level of interaction? type of interaction? etc)? If trust is shattered, can it be restored and what does that take? Can people be playing when they don't know that they are - is there a way to do this and bring people into a game? What are ways that puppetmasters can back up from a decision like this once it's been executed? What steps can individuals or communities take to avoid or recover from something like this? What actions can a game take to help the recovery (should it?)? (i've got dozens of these... I love this! Does that make me sick? demented? just plain evil?) (d'oh! I seem to have failed to send a couple messages in a way that actually sent. If it winds up that these go through twice - double d'oh.) From brooke at giantmice.com Thu Jun 18 16:07:35 2009 From: brooke at giantmice.com (Brooke Thompson) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 16:07:35 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] ARGFest: updated information & keynote announced Message-ID: The ARGFest committee has been working like crazy over the past couple of weeks and it looks like it's beginning to pay off - we've got some great things in store and have recently made a couple of announcements: Jordan Weisman is going to deliver this years keynote. I'm sure he needs little introduction on this list, but just in case... it was his twisted mind that pulled together the team for The Beast. And then took them to 42 Entertainment. And then helped to create Cathy's Book (and Cathy's Key and Cathy's Ring). The latest book, Personal Effects: Dark Art just hit the stores and his latest company, Smith & Tinker, just launched their first game: Nanovor. To say we're thrilled & honored to get him when he's so busy is an understatement by many orders of magnitude. Mazda's 33 Keys is going to be the subject of the featured presentation. A number of the guys that put this together will be speaking and in attendance. Rumor has it that they're very eager to share what they've learned and we'll get a lot of information from them on the production and deployment. As this game took place in Quebec and so much of the material for it is in French, I am very excited to be able to get some info that my English language brain can understand. Plus, there might be talk on metrics and the like - not so exciting for the players among us, but happy making for the producer types. Robot Speed Dating will lead us into the Friday night cocktail party. The new and independent team behind Must Love Robots is coming and they're going to put on Robot Speed Dating Friday before the cocktail party. Judging from the things they've been doing, it should be hilarious and fun. But, I wonder, will some of us get dates to the cocktail party? Lots of great speakers from lots of great teams & companies. A growing list can be found here: http://www.argfestocon.com/about/speakers/ Hotel reservations need to be made before June 26th if you want to take advantage of the reduced rates. You can read details on the booking page: http://www.argfestocon.com/location/booking/ We are still very much in need of donations and sponsorships - putting together a conference ain't cheap! So please, consider donating as an individual (just $10 will get you Order of the Trout but more is more better!) and/or as a company. We're very generous with giving credit and will plaster your name all over stuff if you want us to. Of course, the more you give, the more stuff we'll plaster. Also, if you know of anyone who we should approach for sponsorship, please let us know - getting money out of folks often takes a connection or two, especially in this economy. You can read more on the sponsorship page: http://www.argfestocon.com/sponsors/sponsorship/ and you can check out our media kit if that helps: http://media.argfestocon.com/files/ARGFest_2009_Media_Kit.pdf (link goes to an 8MB PDF) I really hope to see you there. I won't lie - I had my doubts earlier on. But it really is shaping up to be one fantastic weekend and I'm crazy excited about it. I can't put my finger on what feels different - ARGFest has always been fun - it just does. And, yay!, it's less than a month away! From deusexmachinatio at gmail.com Thu Jun 18 16:26:50 2009 From: deusexmachinatio at gmail.com (Andrea Phillips) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 16:26:50 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Deception and what it means to be Real In-Reply-To: <154C396A-1098-465E-BDBD-F5CDB8269F78@giantmice.com> References: <154C396A-1098-465E-BDBD-F5CDB8269F78@giantmice.com> Message-ID: <5c799fd60906181326w6aae39d3u448129e0a43a0890@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 4:04 PM, Brooke Thompson wrote: > For those not as glued to unfiction and ARGN as I am, there's been an > "interesting development": Martin Aggett is a fictional character who > planted himself heavily into the ARG community - so heavily that the guy > behind it began to have second thoughts and when he decided he wanted to > attend ARGFest he figured that would be the point of no return. > > However, before he came out, he had: > * participated in discussions and played games on unfiction > * helped with ARGdb > * gone behind the scenes with a grassroots team developing a game > * become friends with a number of people, beyond superficial game playing > relationships > * written an article for ARGN > Thanks for bringing this up, Brooke. I think Martin/Steve's biggest mistake was looking at Terms of Service and thinking, "Well, that doesn't apply to me." It's happened before, it'll happen again, and that's because there will always be people who think a rule wasn't mean for THEM.. But I wonder if something akin to this doesn't happen all the time. And I'm not even talking about in ARGs, either. We live in a time when your public and online representation of yourself doesn't necessarily have a lot to do with who you are, really. On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog, right? We puppetmasters use this to our advantage, but so do regular people sometimes. There are the ones who post about dramatic breakups or fab parties that probably don't happen, to make their lives seem a little more exciting. There are the ones who deceive by omission: too painful to talk about getting divorced, so online I'll just stay married, you know? So while this is a particularly gaudy example of that kind of thing... well... I guess I'm just philosophical about it. At the end of the day, the window dressing might have been a little different than it should have been, but the mind you were interacting with is the same. I can see why some people feel terribly betrayed, but at the end of the day... it is still the same guy. Though as they say, I don't have a horse in this race, and it's probably easier to be philosophical about something when you're disengaged from it. -- Andrea Phillips http://www.deusexmachinatio.com Words * Culture * Interaction From nathan at studiocypher.com Thu Jun 18 16:36:33 2009 From: nathan at studiocypher.com (Nathan Mishler) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 16:36:33 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Deception and what it means to be Real In-Reply-To: <5c799fd60906181326w6aae39d3u448129e0a43a0890@mail.gmail.com> References: <154C396A-1098-465E-BDBD-F5CDB8269F78@giantmice.com> <5c799fd60906181326w6aae39d3u448129e0a43a0890@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8fc5b2700906181336r72c99679se1f755f0691c2096@mail.gmail.com> This sort of thing does happen all the time. And sometimes we never know. For instance, here's a great article from Raph Koster about a memorial service held in a MUD for a player that had died. http://www.raphkoster.com/gaming/essay1.shtml And then it's not until more than five years later they learn that person never really existed at all, at least how they knew the person. http://www.raphkoster.com/2003/04/14/revisiting-the-garden-of-remembrance/ Kind of part of the treacherous nature of this space, I think. People generally wear at least one mask when they come into these spaces. How many people annouce their real names in unfiction? And puppetmasters often encourage people to put on some other layers and present themselves as different than they really are in game spaces. So I can see why a puppetmaster might think that they can approach it from the other direction and have their characters put on masks themselves. But... he shouldn't have. These things are all about trust, and a certain ammount of it is knowing what space you really are in, even if you are really keeping up the suspension of disbelief. On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 4:26 PM, Andrea Phillips wrote: > On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 4:04 PM, Brooke Thompson > wrote: > > For those not as glued to unfiction and ARGN as I am, there's been an > > "interesting development": Martin Aggett is a fictional character who > > planted himself heavily into the ARG community - so heavily that the guy > > behind it began to have second thoughts and when he decided he wanted to > > attend ARGFest he figured that would be the point of no return. > > > > However, before he came out, he had: > > * participated in discussions and played games on unfiction > > * helped with ARGdb > > * gone behind the scenes with a grassroots team developing a game > > * become friends with a number of people, beyond superficial game playing > > relationships > > * written an article for ARGN > > > > Thanks for bringing this up, Brooke. I think Martin/Steve's biggest > mistake was looking at Terms of Service and thinking, "Well, that > doesn't apply to me." It's happened before, it'll happen again, and > that's because there will always be people who think a rule wasn't > mean for THEM.. But I wonder if something akin to this doesn't happen > all the time. And I'm not even talking about in ARGs, either. > > We live in a time when your public and online representation of > yourself doesn't necessarily have a lot to do with who you are, > really. On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog, right? We > puppetmasters use this to our advantage, but so do regular people > sometimes. There are the ones who post about dramatic breakups or fab > parties that probably don't happen, to make their lives seem a little > more exciting. There are the ones who deceive by omission: too painful > to talk about getting divorced, so online I'll just stay married, you > know? > > So while this is a particularly gaudy example of that kind of thing... > well... I guess I'm just philosophical about it. At the end of the > day, the window dressing might have been a little different than it > should have been, but the mind you were interacting with is the same. > I can see why some people feel terribly betrayed, but at the end of > the day... it is still the same guy. > > Though as they say, I don't have a horse in this race, and it's > probably easier to be philosophical about something when you're > disengaged from it. > > -- > Andrea Phillips > http://www.deusexmachinatio.com > Words * Culture * Interaction > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > -- Nathan Mishler Studio Cypher, LLC "Curious Games for Curious People" http://www.twitter.com/StudioCypher (812) 361-5981 From brooke at giantmice.com Thu Jun 18 17:56:58 2009 From: brooke at giantmice.com (Brooke Thompson) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 17:56:58 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Deception and what it means to be Real In-Reply-To: <8fc5b2700906181336r72c99679se1f755f0691c2096@mail.gmail.com> References: <154C396A-1098-465E-BDBD-F5CDB8269F78@giantmice.com> <5c799fd60906181326w6aae39d3u448129e0a43a0890@mail.gmail.com> <8fc5b2700906181336r72c99679se1f755f0691c2096@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: So, do you not think that there is a difference between people adapting an online persona (fictional or otherwise) and creating a fictional persona and placing them into a community in order to later be a part of a larger fictional project (ie PixelVixen707 & the game bloggers for PE:DA or Martin Aggett & the ARG community for a not yet launched project). To me, there is a difference and that is based in the intent behind it. In the case of the aforementioned MUD player, Karyn, it never extended beyond her single story and, for all we know, the death was a way of giving up the game. In the case of Martin Aggett, the intent was to infiltrate the community for a larger purpose and a larger story and game. And, as people consider Karyn to be a "hoax", if these things are similar or, even, the same - does that mean that when designers spend time creating and nurturing an online history complete with relationships before the experience launches in full are perpetuating a hoax? And, while breaking the UF TOS is bad! and wrong! and full of fail! it is not all that unusual. Though, this is the first time (at least in my memory and to my knowledge) that it was done by a character months before the project would be live in order to infiltrate the community. It is usually done by as a way for someone to help players struggling through a puzzle or plot element. Players can usually quickly figure out who those folks are, alert a mod/admin who can match IPs and do other research, and it's dealt with quickly and easily (with the occasional cry of "it was my brother! I left my computer on the page and he thought it would be funny! i'll beat him up so it never happens again! I promise! just don't ban me!"). In this case, it went beyond that and was an effort to become involved in the community. I am not surprised (or upset) that it happened. But I do think that this is a different case - again, because of the intent behind it. On Jun 18, 2009, at 4:36 PM, Nathan Mishler wrote: > This sort of thing does happen all the time. And sometimes we never > know. > For instance, here's a great article from Raph Koster about a memorial > service held in a MUD for a player that had died. > http://www.raphkoster.com/gaming/essay1.shtml > And then it's not until more than five years later they learn that > person > never really existed at all, at least how they knew the person. > http://www.raphkoster.com/2003/04/14/revisiting-the-garden-of-remembrance/ > Kind of part of the treacherous nature of this space, I think. People > generally wear at least one mask when they come into these spaces. > How many > people annouce their real names in unfiction? And puppetmasters often > encourage people to put on some other layers and present themselves as > different than they really are in game spaces. > On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 4:26 PM, Andrea Phillips > >> We live in a time when your public and online representation of >> yourself doesn't necessarily have a lot to do with who you are, >> really. On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog, right? From dflor71 at gmail.com Thu Jun 18 18:08:30 2009 From: dflor71 at gmail.com (David Flor) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 18:08:30 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Deception and what it means to be Real In-Reply-To: References: <154C396A-1098-465E-BDBD-F5CDB8269F78@giantmice.com> <5c799fd60906181326w6aae39d3u448129e0a43a0890@mail.gmail.com> <8fc5b2700906181336r72c99679se1f755f0691c2096@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <50b4b0580906181508q4a4f17c9hb8e859ee20c1d570@mail.gmail.com> Suffice to say, we've had all sorts of fun controversy in the past few months, haven't we? If I wasn't in such a brutal hurry now, I'd talk about this for a while. My commentary's on my blog: http://www.brainclouds.net/Darklight/20090617/Fictional-Reality.aspx And I am *not* a dog... I'm a rabbit. On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 5:56 PM, Brooke Thompson wrote: > So, do you not think that there is a difference between people adapting an > online persona (fictional or otherwise) and creating a fictional persona and > placing them into a community in order to later be a part of a larger > fictional project (ie PixelVixen707 & the game bloggers for PE:DA or Martin > Aggett & the ARG community for a not yet launched project). > > To me, there is a difference and that is based in the intent behind it. In > the case of the aforementioned MUD player, Karyn, it never extended beyond > her single story and, for all we know, the death was a way of giving up the > game. In the case of Martin Aggett, the intent was to infiltrate the > community for a larger purpose and a larger story and game. And, as people > consider Karyn to be a "hoax", if these things are similar or, even, the > same - does that mean that when designers spend time creating and nurturing > an online history complete with relationships before the experience launches > in full are perpetuating a hoax? > > And, while breaking the UF TOS is bad! and wrong! and full of fail! it is > not all that unusual. Though, this is the first time (at least in my memory > and to my knowledge) that it was done by a character months before the > project would be live in order to infiltrate the community. It is usually > done by as a way for someone to help players struggling through a puzzle or > plot element. Players can usually quickly figure out who those folks are, > alert a mod/admin who can match IPs and do other research, and it's dealt > with quickly and easily (with the occasional cry of "it was my brother! I > left my computer on the page and he thought it would be funny! i'll beat him > up so it never happens again! I promise! just don't ban me!"). In this case, > it went beyond that and was an effort to become involved in the community. I > am not surprised (or upset) that it happened. But I do think that this is a > different case - again, because of the intent behind it. > > > > > > On Jun 18, 2009, at 4:36 PM, Nathan Mishler wrote: > > This sort of thing does happen all the time. And sometimes we never know. >> For instance, here's a great article from Raph Koster about a memorial >> service held in a MUD for a player that had died. >> http://www.raphkoster.com/gaming/essay1.shtml >> And then it's not until more than five years later they learn that person >> never really existed at all, at least how they knew the person. >> http://www.raphkoster.com/2003/04/14/revisiting-the-garden-of-remembrance/ >> Kind of part of the treacherous nature of this space, I think. People >> generally wear at least one mask when they come into these spaces. How >> many >> people annouce their real names in unfiction? And puppetmasters often >> encourage people to put on some other layers and present themselves as >> different than they really are in game spaces. >> > > > On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 4:26 PM, Andrea Phillips < >> deusexmachinatio at gmail.com >> >>> >>> We live in a time when your public and online representation of >>> yourself doesn't necessarily have a lot to do with who you are, >>> really. On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog, right? >>> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > From btradish at earthlink.net Thu Jun 18 20:18:50 2009 From: btradish at earthlink.net (John Evans) Date: Thu, 18 Jun 2009 20:18:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [arg_discuss] ARG SIG News Bulletin! Now With News! Message-ID: <18162631.1245370730599.JavaMail.root@mswamui-billy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Thanks, Andrea, I hope to be a credit to the list. Regarding the various tasks: >* Care and feeding of ARGology, especially in terms of putting up new >content. From time to time I think about putting something up, but >don't want to step on anyone's toes! --And I bet other people feel >that way, too. Clearly this needs sorting out. I've got all the hosting and admin privileges for ARGology, so I'll be pitching in for this one. Every now and then some interesting things have been posted to this list, things that I've thought would make for good ARGology content, but I don't want to just grab someone's post and publish it without getting their okay. -- John Evans Chaoseed Software - http://chaoseed.com From annika at sics.se Fri Jun 19 02:13:12 2009 From: annika at sics.se (Annika Waern) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 08:13:12 +0200 Subject: [arg_discuss] Deception and what it means to be Real In-Reply-To: <154C396A-1098-465E-BDBD-F5CDB8269F78@giantmice.com> Message-ID: <198AC03498C3435FB4C83A51FEF23AA2@sics.se> This sounds like what I would classify as a hoax, but similar things have happened even within the scope of ARGs. Together with Marie Denward I recently got an article accepted to DIGRA on the Swedish ARG production "the truth about Marika", where some of the participants seems to have thought that the story was real. (The article isn't published yet, but if anyone wants to read it in advance feel free to drop me an email.) The gist of the article is that in this production, there was a fair amount of role-play going on, both from the organisers but also from the participants that had understood and accepted the fictional nature of the production. And that this confused and even fooled some of the less experienced players, this despite the fact that there were explicit warnings scattered all through the production about its fictional character. Annika Waern Mobile Life at Interactive Institute -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Brooke Thompson Sent: den 18 juni 2009 22:05 To: arg_discuss at igda.org Subject: [arg_discuss] Deception and what it means to be Real For those not as glued to unfiction and ARGN as I am, there's been an "interesting development": Martin Aggett is a fictional character who planted himself heavily into the ARG community - so heavily that the guy behind it began to have second thoughts and when he decided he wanted to attend ARGFest he figured that would be the point of no return. However, before he came out, he had: * participated in discussions and played games on unfiction * helped with ARGdb * gone behind the scenes with a grassroots team developing a game * become friends with a number of people, beyond superficial game playing relationships * written an article for ARGN His account on unfiction was suspended and the last words on it were the author's apology: http://forums.unfiction.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=27985 ARGN has weighed in as well: http://www.argn.com/2009/06/getting_played/ Some fascinating stuff there that leads to a whole host of interesting questions. Things like: Is this just the nature of Alternate Reality Gaming - should we expect these things to happen? Is it ok for people to feel deceived (and can that be done in a positive way)? How do we make characters real? What are peoples reactions and what makes them different (level of interaction? type of interaction? etc)? If trust is shattered, can it be restored and what does that take? Can people be playing when they don't know that they are - is there a way to do this and bring people into a game? What are ways that puppetmasters can back up from a decision like this once it's been executed? What steps can individuals or communities take to avoid or recover from something like this? What actions can a game take to help the recovery (should it?)? (i've got dozens of these... I love this! Does that make me sick? demented? just plain evil?) (d'oh! I seem to have failed to send a couple messages in a way that actually sent. If it winds up that these go through twice - double d'oh.) _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From thomas.maillioux at gmail.com Fri Jun 19 06:11:16 2009 From: thomas.maillioux at gmail.com (Thomas Maillioux) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 12:11:16 +0200 Subject: [arg_discuss] Deception and what it means to be Real In-Reply-To: <198AC03498C3435FB4C83A51FEF23AA2@sics.se> References: <154C396A-1098-465E-BDBD-F5CDB8269F78@giantmice.com> <198AC03498C3435FB4C83A51FEF23AA2@sics.se> Message-ID: <25de1e4f0906190311g70cbdd99rb593c3d74d1b89d2@mail.gmail.com> Following this conversation without pitching in much right now - all that I could have brought up came up in other people's words, maybe better than I could have. This brings up many interesting questions regarding social interaction, social spaces and social masks : I'm sure Jean-Paul Sartre would have loved reading all this. I'm not completely sure the words "hoax" and "deception" completely apply since both terms involve a "malignant" intent fueling one's actions while the person behind "Martin" seemed to intend no harm, emotional or otherwise, to anyone by doing this - maybe just entertaining an online *alter ego *like people sometimes do ? After all, as someone mentioned earlier, the interactions seemed genuine enoug : they did seem to be "the same mind". From nathan at studiocypher.com Fri Jun 19 10:35:29 2009 From: nathan at studiocypher.com (Nathan Mishler) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 10:35:29 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Deception and what it means to be Real In-Reply-To: References: <154C396A-1098-465E-BDBD-F5CDB8269F78@giantmice.com> <5c799fd60906181326w6aae39d3u448129e0a43a0890@mail.gmail.com> <8fc5b2700906181336r72c99679se1f755f0691c2096@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8fc5b2700906190735k3a78adefq45b8def08120f10e@mail.gmail.com> Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear. As I addressed this sort of at the bottom of my spiel in small type. There is a difference! Sort of. I mostly agree with you on intent and the social contract between players and puppetmasters. While players (arg, mmo) are usually encouraged to put on masks and go into what we often call the "magic circle" and the puppetmasters are not supposed to come out of the circle. What I was trying to point out is that in ARGs there is a potential problem - where does the magic circle end? In an MMO it's REALLY obvious - I close the window. How do I leave an ARG? Turn off my phone? Step away from email? Eh, though I realize in saying that I am sidestepping an obvious point - Unfiction has really big THIS IS OUT OF GAME signs everywhere. So really, on a practical level, dude shouldn't have done that. Personally I don't like the trickery angle either. The thing is, people really can suspend disbelief and care about characters they know aren't real. Look at any movie/book with a big following. So the "Oh I am one of you - psyche! I AM NOT REAL" bit just seems tacky. What I'd love to see is someone do the same thing, but say outright that this character isn't "real" Not on argnet, of course, or unfiction - but somewhere. Could you introduce a completely (and obviously) fictional character into a community and have them be accepted, then lead that community into a game? On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 5:56 PM, Brooke Thompson wrote: > So, do you not think that there is a difference between people adapting an > online persona (fictional or otherwise) and creating a fictional persona and > placing them into a community in order to later be a part of a larger > fictional project (ie PixelVixen707 & the game bloggers for PE:DA or Martin > Aggett & the ARG community for a not yet launched project). > > To me, there is a difference and that is based in the intent behind it. In > the case of the aforementioned MUD player, Karyn, it never extended beyond > her single story and, for all we know, the death was a way of giving up the > game. In the case of Martin Aggett, the intent was to infiltrate the > community for a larger purpose and a larger story and game. And, as people > consider Karyn to be a "hoax", if these things are similar or, even, the > same - does that mean that when designers spend time creating and nurturing > an online history complete with relationships before the experience launches > in full are perpetuating a hoax? > > And, while breaking the UF TOS is bad! and wrong! and full of fail! it is > not all that unusual. Though, this is the first time (at least in my memory > and to my knowledge) that it was done by a character months before the > project would be live in order to infiltrate the community. It is usually > done by as a way for someone to help players struggling through a puzzle or > plot element. Players can usually quickly figure out who those folks are, > alert a mod/admin who can match IPs and do other research, and it's dealt > with quickly and easily (with the occasional cry of "it was my brother! I > left my computer on the page and he thought it would be funny! i'll beat him > up so it never happens again! I promise! just don't ban me!"). In this case, > it went beyond that and was an effort to become involved in the community. I > am not surprised (or upset) that it happened. But I do think that this is a > different case - again, because of the intent behind it. > > > > > > On Jun 18, 2009, at 4:36 PM, Nathan Mishler wrote: > > This sort of thing does happen all the time. And sometimes we never know. >> For instance, here's a great article from Raph Koster about a memorial >> service held in a MUD for a player that had died. >> http://www.raphkoster.com/gaming/essay1.shtml >> And then it's not until more than five years later they learn that person >> never really existed at all, at least how they knew the person. >> http://www.raphkoster.com/2003/04/14/revisiting-the-garden-of-remembrance/ >> Kind of part of the treacherous nature of this space, I think. People >> generally wear at least one mask when they come into these spaces. How >> many >> people annouce their real names in unfiction? And puppetmasters often >> encourage people to put on some other layers and present themselves as >> different than they really are in game spaces. >> > > > On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 4:26 PM, Andrea Phillips < >> deusexmachinatio at gmail.com >> >>> >>> We live in a time when your public and online representation of >>> yourself doesn't necessarily have a lot to do with who you are, >>> really. On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog, right? >>> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > -- Nathan Mishler Studio Cypher, LLC "Curious Games for Curious People" http://www.twitter.com/StudioCypher (812) 361-5981 From martine at kezos.com Fri Jun 19 10:01:02 2009 From: martine at kezos.com (Martine Parry) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 15:01:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: [arg_discuss] invite to events In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2539.90.200.84.38.1245420062.squirrel@www.easilymail.co.uk> Hi Guys, anyone interested in kids in games and virtual worlds and anyone interested in finding funding right now, then please accept my invite to these events coming up on 17 July in London: www.kidsvirtualspaces.com www.fundingsummit.co.uk Hope to see you. Martine 07788 191252 From bbakiogl at gmail.com Fri Jun 19 11:40:46 2009 From: bbakiogl at gmail.com (Burcu Bakioglu) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 11:40:46 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] invite to events In-Reply-To: <2539.90.200.84.38.1245420062.squirrel@www.easilymail.co.uk> References: <2539.90.200.84.38.1245420062.squirrel@www.easilymail.co.uk> Message-ID: Tweeting these events to my Twitter network that has a bunch of VW peeps... On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 10:01 AM, Martine Parry wrote: > Hi Guys, anyone interested in kids in games and virtual worlds and anyone > interested in finding funding right now, then please accept my invite to > these events coming up on 17 July in London: > > www.kidsvirtualspaces.com > > www.fundingsummit.co.uk > > Hope to see you. > > Martine > 07788 191252 > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > -- Thanks, Burcu S. Bakioglu, Ph.D. http://www.palefirer.com http://palefirer.com/blog/ Skype: PaleFireR AIM: PaleFireR -- "Congratulations! You're the first human to fail the Turing test." From brooke at giantmice.com Fri Jun 19 12:21:27 2009 From: brooke at giantmice.com (Brooke Thompson) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 12:21:27 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Deception and what it means to be Real In-Reply-To: <8fc5b2700906190735k3a78adefq45b8def08120f10e@mail.gmail.com> References: <154C396A-1098-465E-BDBD-F5CDB8269F78@giantmice.com> <5c799fd60906181326w6aae39d3u448129e0a43a0890@mail.gmail.com> <8fc5b2700906181336r72c99679se1f755f0691c2096@mail.gmail.com> <8fc5b2700906190735k3a78adefq45b8def08120f10e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <94C6216B-80A4-417C-B83B-096F538B4965@giantmice.com> > Personally I don't like the trickery angle either. The thing is, > people > really can suspend disbelief and care about characters they know > aren't > real. Look at any movie/book with a big following. So the "Oh I am > one of > you - psyche! I AM NOT REAL" bit just seems tacky. What I'd love to > see is > someone do the same thing, but say outright that this character > isn't "real" > Not on argnet, of course, or unfiction - but somewhere. Could you > introduce > a completely (and obviously) fictional character into a community > and have > them be accepted, then lead that community into a game? Two recent examples of this would be PixelVixen707 for Personal Effects: Dark Art and the guy (Andrew?) from the BloodCopy blog for True Blood. PixelVixen707: She's a game blogger who began working her way into the game blogging community and now also writes for suicide girls. Though, to be fair, though there's a "hosted provided by the people that created me" disclaimer on her site, it's not completely obvious that she is fiction and there was a bit of a hullaballoo when the game blogging community first realized that she wasn't "real". And while the person behind her states in the comments at ARGN that she now makes it clear by linking to articles about her fictional nature, a brief glance at her blog, her profile at suicide girls and her first few entries there don't reveal such links. However, there doesn't seem to be any issue with it in that community - and I'm fairly certain that the member (at least the active ones) are aware of it due to the press surrounding the book. The thing is, she adds value to both communities. As I said elsewhere (oddly enough, just a couple days before I learned about Martin Aggett), "Any conversation about her fictional nature reverted back to that fact - if she's writing intelligent, thought-provoking and, for her audience, relevant material, doesn't that make her real? Or, at least, real enough? Should she have to write a disclaimer on her blog or attach it to each post that these well thought out and interesting posts on game design & theory are actually being written by a fictional character?" PixelVixen707 links: * Her Blog: http://www.pixelvixen707.com/ * Suicide Girls Profile: http://suicidegirls.com/members/PixelVixen707/ * Suicide Girls Column: http://suicidegirls.com/members/PixelVixen707/news/ * * (first article there): http://suicidegirls.com/news/geek/23677/Hit%20Play%20with%20PixelVixen707%20Velvet%20Assassin/ * Suicide Girls Blog: http://suicidegirls.com/members/PixelVixen707/blog/ * * (first post there): http://suicidegirls.com/members/PixelVixen707/2117085/ * Some initial reaction: http://www.brainygamer.com/the_brainy_gamer/2008/11/a-bit-thick.html BloodCopy: This is a blog that writes things from a vampire's perspective. While the posts themselves don't always make that completely obvious, the majority of them do. And the site, that definitely does. Unlike PV707, you are very aware that you are in a fictional (and fantastical) universe. I mean, vampires just aren't real, so you're either dealing with a nutcase or a fictional character (or characters) - either way, you know something is up and to not get too close. The problem & controversy happened when the blog was "bought" by Gawker and, so, content from it was pushed onto other blogs in the network. People got upset, especially once they provoked, but the anger seemed misplaced as it came out as being angry at advertising when, I think, that was there way of saying "it's not addng value here." On it's own, the blood copy blog is fine and adds value to its readers. However, when that content is pushed onto another site, it districts users from what they went there for in the first place - it takes away value. BloodCopy links: * The blog: http://bloodcopy.com/ * The hullabaloo on io9: http://io9.com/5271559/vampires-are-not-real-and-blood-copy-is-not-a-real-blog From wendeth at wendydespain.com Fri Jun 19 14:14:36 2009 From: wendeth at wendydespain.com (Wendy Despain) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 11:14:36 -0700 Subject: [arg_discuss] Deception and what it means to be Real In-Reply-To: <94C6216B-80A4-417C-B83B-096F538B4965@giantmice.com> References: <154C396A-1098-465E-BDBD-F5CDB8269F78@giantmice.com> <5c799fd60906181326w6aae39d3u448129e0a43a0890@mail.gmail.com> <8fc5b2700906181336r72c99679se1f755f0691c2096@mail.gmail.com> <8fc5b2700906190735k3a78adefq45b8def08120f10e@mail.gmail.com> <94C6216B-80A4-417C-B83B-096F538B4965@giantmice.com> Message-ID: <0c9ac23f5310ee0a95e10f6fcefc594e.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> As others have said, I don't have a lot of time to spend on this, but here's the short version of my view: The magic circle is fun because of the boundary - the player can choose to step into or out of it. There are issues of trust related to this boundary. As someone else mentioned, interacting with fictional characters is fun *because we know they're fictional.* If we don't know, that added magic isn't there. And can't be added on later. People want to know when they're stepping into the magic circle. So I think it's important to make it clear when you're inviting them in. I'm currently involved in a project that is experimenting with ways to draw in new players who otherwise wouldn't choose to step into a magic circle (because it's out of their comfort zone) and we've found great success. But they key so far is in helping to build up that boundary of the magic circle - and the trust that goes with it. (You won't be abandoned there with no way to get out. Someone is running the magic, you can trust us.) Wendy Despain quantumcontent.com From mmonello at campfirenyc.com Fri Jun 19 14:47:23 2009 From: mmonello at campfirenyc.com (Michael Monello) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 11:47:23 -0700 Subject: [arg_discuss] Deception and what it means to be Real In-Reply-To: <94C6216B-80A4-417C-B83B-096F538B4965@giantmice.com> Message-ID: On 6/19/09 12:21 PM, "Brooke Thompson" wrote: On it's own, the blood copy blog is fine and adds value to its readers. However, when that content is pushed onto another site, it districts users from what they went there for in the first place - it takes away value. Actually there's a much much deeper (and more interesting) story here that involves an article published by someone who didn't bother to check facts and then when retracted posted a screed about deception and lies (rather than the true mea culpa that should have been written), and the Gawker editorial staff taking sides very publicly against the advertising staff. The post you link to was the first contact readers of gawker sites had with the integration, establishing a tone that was instantly combative and not based on the content at all. To be really crass about it - the editorial department shit in the pool before anyone had a chance to dip a toe in. The question as to whether readers would have responded differently remains - the bloodcopy posts were not taking away from what people came for, they were attempts to tell a fictional story through the space usually occupied by banner ads. There were definitely issues with the way it was handled, particularly between Gawker editorial and advertising, no doubt. The story is too rich for me to write here, but I'd be happy to share it over beers at ARGFest if anyone is interested, as I'm sure it would spark interesting discussion and debate. --- Mike Monello Partner, Campfire 62 White Street, 3E New York, NY 10013 212-612-9600 http://www.campfirenyc.com From bclark at gmdstudios.com Fri Jun 19 15:59:47 2009 From: bclark at gmdstudios.com (Brian Clark) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 15:59:47 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Deception and what it means to be Real In-Reply-To: <0c9ac23f5310ee0a95e10f6fcefc594e.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> References: <154C396A-1098-465E-BDBD-F5CDB8269F78@giantmice.com><5c799fd60906181326w6aae39d3u448129e0a43a0890@mail.gmail.com><8fc5b2700906181336r72c99679se1f755f0691c2096@mail.gmail.com><8fc5b2700906190735k3a78adefq45b8def08120f10e@mail.gmail.com><94C6216B-80A4-417C-B83B-096F538B4965@giantmice.com> <0c9ac23f5310ee0a95e10f6fcefc594e.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> Message-ID: So I've been reflecting on Wendy's comment: "People want to know when they're stepping into the magic circle. So I think it's important to make it clear when you're inviting them in." I totally accept this as valid, but I'm not sure I necessarily follow it to the same conclusions. Two thought bombs: First, in reality, every ARG is producing the opposite constantly. Part of the fun of ARGs might well be "the reveal" -- the moment that they figure out it is fiction is almost always after they started experiencing it. You have to turn that tip. To restate Wendy in a different way: "As someone else mentioned, interacting with fictional characters is fun *because we CAN DETERMINE they're fictional.* If we CAN'T DETERMINE, that added magic isn't there. And can't be added on later." Second, I'm a bit defensive about hoaxes, at least in the William Castle model of "entertaining film flam." The term is a pejorative: one person's brilliance is another person's cruel hoax (think "War of the Worlds".) I accept that valid art might include invisible theater, the dramatic unfolding in places and ways that break with social tradition. I think playing around the responsible edges of that are a part of where the thrill of the ARG form actually comes from (for participants and creators.) Brian From bclark at gmdstudios.com Fri Jun 19 16:03:45 2009 From: bclark at gmdstudios.com (Brian Clark) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 16:03:45 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Deception and what it means to be Real In-Reply-To: References: <94C6216B-80A4-417C-B83B-096F538B4965@giantmice.com> Message-ID: <109456A8EEF94C9D98377C6327989C66@Tricorder> Monello-san wrote: "the bloodcopy posts were not taking away from what people came for, they were attempts to tell a fictional story through the space usually occupied by banner ads." Never underestimate the shock, surprise and confusion that can still create. It continues to freak them out when advertisers operate outside their stereotyped convention: it forces a media literacy moment, sometimes even on editorial boards! Count me in for the ARGFest beer ... perhaps you need a private inquisition? Brian From brooke at giantmice.com Fri Jun 19 16:09:24 2009 From: brooke at giantmice.com (Brooke Thompson) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 16:09:24 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Deception and what it means to be Real In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jun 19, 2009, at 2:47 PM, Michael Monello wrote: > The post you link to was the first contact readers of gawker sites > had with the integration, establishing a tone that was instantly > combative and not based on the content at all. To be really crass > about it - the editorial department shit in the pool before anyone > had a chance to dip a toe in. Yeah, the tone of that article was definitely a push in the OUTRAGE! NOW! direction. Of course, that outrage went towards advertising = evil, duh! direction that is oh so tired and not very interesting or productive, but whatever. They aren't all as obsessed over what it means to be "real" in a digital world and how does fiction fit into that as I am, the jerks. :) > The question as to whether readers would have responded differently > remains - the bloodcopy posts were not taking away from what people > came for, they were attempts to tell a fictional story through the > space usually occupied by banner ads. I have to disagree here... Ads do come at a cost to the user. Oh, sure, we might justify it by saying that a story told in an ad is a heck of a lot better than something shouting "Congratulations! You have won an iPod!", but it is still not what drives users to Gawker or IO9 or wherever. That is just something that we have to deal with when we choose to use banners or sponsored posts or whatever. So, we have to make sure that the cost is worth it, and that's even more true when using sponsored posts which cost more as the user invests more time in reading it (if they do read it). And I, for one, am very much interested in talking about this sort of stuff over beers with you at ARGFest. Cannot wait! From wendeth at wendydespain.com Fri Jun 19 16:57:02 2009 From: wendeth at wendydespain.com (Wendy Despain) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 13:57:02 -0700 Subject: [arg_discuss] Deception and what it means to be Real In-Reply-To: References: <154C396A-1098-465E-BDBD-F5CDB8269F78@giantmice.com><5c799fd60906181326w6aae39d3u448129e0a43a0890@mail.gmail.com><8fc5b2700906181336r72c99679se1f755f0691c2096@mail.gmail.com><8fc5b2700906190735k3a78adefq45b8def08120f10e@mail.gmail.com><94C6216B-80A4-417C-B83B-096F538B4965@giantmice.com> <0c9ac23f5310ee0a95e10f6fcefc594e.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> Message-ID: On Fri, June 19, 2009 12:59 pm, Brian Clark wrote: > "As someone else mentioned, interacting with fictional characters is > fun *because we CAN DETERMINE they're fictional.* If we CAN'T > DETERMINE, that added magic isn't there. And can't be added on > later." Ah, but that implies that your audience is limited to those who are "smart enough" to make the determination with the amount of evidence you have given them. This level of evidence is different for each person. For some, the mere mention of "vampire" is enough evidence. For others... not enough. There is certainly an amount of enjoyment from "ah! I'm smart enough to figure out that's a magic circle right there!" But I contend that the real enjoyment is from *recognizing* a magic circle that resonates with that personality. "Wow, look at that amazing play space." Not from feeling smug and superior to all those not smart enough to determine the fiction using the evidence provided. But I'm very inclusionist in my ARG philosophies. I want to invite everyone to play along, and if they choose not to - that's okay. But I want to offer them the opportunity in a fair way. > I accept that valid art might include invisible theater, the > dramatic unfolding in places and ways that break with social > tradition. I think playing around the responsible edges of that > are a part of where the thrill of the ARG form actually comes > from (for participants and creators.) I agree. But I contend that the break with social tradition is in fact one kind of the very boundary I am so enamored with - the boundary of the magic circle. This is outside of the norm... but it's ok because it's a magic circle. Wendy Despain quantumcontent.com From mmonello at campfirenyc.com Fri Jun 19 17:02:56 2009 From: mmonello at campfirenyc.com (Michael Monello) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 14:02:56 -0700 Subject: [arg_discuss] Deception and what it means to be Real In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 6/19/09 4:09 PM, "Brooke Thompson" wrote: Ads do come at a cost to the user. Oh, sure, we might justify it by saying that a story told in an ad is a heck of a lot better than something shouting "Congratulations! You have won an iPod!", but it is still not what drives users to Gawker or IO9 or wherever Except that it's the ads that make the existence of Gawker and I09 et al possible in the first place. If users really didn't find a value in advertising within those spaces then they would be willing to pay for that content. So far, audiences have consistently shown their unwillingness to pay for it, preferring to have it subsidized by advertising. Mike --- Mike Monello Partner, Campfire 62 White Street, 3E New York, NY 10013 212-612-9600 http://www.campfirenyc.com From wendeth at wendydespain.com Fri Jun 19 17:09:21 2009 From: wendeth at wendydespain.com (Wendy Despain) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 14:09:21 -0700 Subject: [arg_discuss] Look! Stats!!! In-Reply-To: References: <154C396A-1098-465E-BDBD-F5CDB8269F78@giantmice.com><5c799fd60906181326w6aae39d3u448129e0a43a0890@mail.gmail.com><8fc5b2700906181336r72c99679se1f755f0691c2096@mail.gmail.com><8fc5b2700906190735k3a78adefq45b8def08120f10e@mail.gmail.com><94C6216B-80A4-417C-B83B-096F538B4965@giantmice.com> <0c9ac23f5310ee0a95e10f6fcefc594e.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> Message-ID: <70b976b2dab3c252e61a5b6c57dbb403.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> Heh, I get inordinately happy when people talk about solid numbers on ARG-related stuff. http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/la-et-district19-2009jun19,0,4768186.story Relevant excerpt (about D-9.com bus stop ads): Sony's president of digital marketing, Dwight Caines, said: "In two weeks, there have been 33,000 phone calls. Two thousand five hundred people left voice messages about alien sightings. And 92% of those calls come from cellphones, indicating that people are opting in, on the spot, in the streets." From brooke at giantmice.com Fri Jun 19 17:13:12 2009 From: brooke at giantmice.com (Brooke Thompson) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 17:13:12 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Deception and what it means to be Real In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0DC28406-D748-459C-9B81-16A2F6A33CE2@giantmice.com> On Jun 19, 2009, at 5:02 PM, Michael Monello wrote: > On 6/19/09 4:09 PM, "Brooke Thompson" wrote: > > Ads do come at a cost to the user. Oh, sure, we might justify it by > saying that a story told in an ad is a heck of a lot better than > something shouting "Congratulations! You have won an iPod!", but it is > still not what drives users to Gawker or IO9 or wherever > > > Except that it's the ads that make the existence of Gawker and I09 > et al possible in the first place. If users really didn't find a > value in advertising within those spaces then they would be willing > to pay for that content. So far, audiences have consistently shown > their unwillingness to pay for it, preferring to have it subsidized > by advertising. > Just because the cost of the ads is less than the cost of paying for it, does not mean that there is no cost or that there is value. From mmonello at campfirenyc.com Fri Jun 19 17:15:12 2009 From: mmonello at campfirenyc.com (Michael Monello) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 14:15:12 -0700 Subject: [arg_discuss] Look! Stats!!! In-Reply-To: <70b976b2dab3c252e61a5b6c57dbb403.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> Message-ID: Great article, thanks for posting. I've enjoyed the OOH stuff I've seen around the neighborhood, including a painted and padlocked shed labeled "HUMANS ONLY!" Anyone know who's running it? On 6/19/09 5:09 PM, "Wendy Despain" wrote: Heh, I get inordinately happy when people talk about solid numbers on ARG-related stuff. http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/la-et-district19-2009jun19,0,4768186.story Relevant excerpt (about D-9.com bus stop ads): Sony's president of digital marketing, Dwight Caines, said: "In two weeks, there have been 33,000 phone calls. Two thousand five hundred people left voice messages about alien sightings. And 92% of those calls come from cellphones, indicating that people are opting in, on the spot, in the streets." _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss --- Mike Monello Partner, Campfire 62 White Street, 3E New York, NY 10013 212-612-9600 http://www.campfirenyc.com From mmonello at campfirenyc.com Fri Jun 19 21:25:09 2009 From: mmonello at campfirenyc.com (Michael Monello) Date: Fri, 19 Jun 2009 18:25:09 -0700 Subject: [arg_discuss] Deception and what it means to be Real In-Reply-To: <0DC28406-D748-459C-9B81-16A2F6A33CE2@giantmice.com> Message-ID: On 6/19/09 5:13 PM, "Brooke Thompson" wrote: Just because the cost of the ads is less than the cost of paying for it, does not mean that there is no cost or that there is value. The sponsorship of the content is a pretty clear value proposition, in my opinion. We make this content, you don't have to pay money for it, and we make our money by selling ads that we place to grab your attention, which is how you "pay" for the content. In the cases where things are intrusive or force you to do something you don't want, I agree - pre-rolls, page takeovers, etc. Nothing is free, there is a clear transaction between the audience, content creators, and advertisers going on there, but you can't separate the "cost" of having ads in the stream from the "benefit" of not having to pay hard cash for that content. If you are referring to the quality of the ads Gawker produced (they would not let us create the content while the blog was in the Gawker network), that's another discussion entirely, to be had over those beers in Portland! But I still maintain the bloodcopy example can't be used as an example of advertising story content being pushed to an audience that doesn't want it because of the environment created by the Gawker editorial staff before the audiences were ever exposed to it. We can speculate that the reaction may have been the same, we can certainly make qualitative assessments of the stories, but none of that is useful in using it as an example. If anything, it's a clear example of why an advertising department should communicate it's intent with their editorial counterparts! --- Mike Monello Partner, Campfire http://www.campfirenyc.com From markus.montola at uta.fi Thu Jun 25 04:15:46 2009 From: markus.montola at uta.fi (Markus Montola) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 11:15:46 +0300 Subject: [arg_discuss] Deception and what it means to be Real In-Reply-To: <5c799fd60906181326w6aae39d3u448129e0a43a0890@mail.gmail.com> References: <154C396A-1098-465E-BDBD-F5CDB8269F78@giantmice.com> <5c799fd60906181326w6aae39d3u448129e0a43a0890@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A433232.8070505@uta.fi> Two more cents on this discussion, now that I finally catched up with the discussion. I think it's interesting to see people trying to build a kind of an inverse magic circle here. ARGs span everywhere and play with deception and fabrication everywhere, but there is a problem if someone brings the deception on the home ground of the deception afficionados. I mean -- is it morally and ethically acceptable to have a game character create a Facebook presence? As I have understood, that is against the TOS/EULA of Facebook. If yes, why are the Unfiction terms of service more significant? Why is Unfiction's "Forums are out of game -- no exceptions" any more forceful statement than "This is not a game"? The Swedes at The Company P have the habit of occasionally being/playing game characters themselves. I mean, for example, that Martin Ericsson showed up in the final event of Sanningen om Marika *as himself*, except that like all the players, he was following the game's central theme "Play as if it was real". Besides, what's a "real persona" anyway in a nickname community? You can't base trust on realness, since realness does not exist. This will happen again and again. It's the property of the medium. It may be considered bad puppetmastering, but if other venues can be appropriated, why not the behind-the-scenes as well? My take is that I'm surprised that anyone in the ARG community is surprised: This is exactly the sort of internet literacy things I have thought ARGs would teach their players. Nothing is real. Everything is real. You will never know, and still don't. It's all just words. Words are not just words. Best, - Markus Andrea Phillips kirjoitti: > On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 4:04 PM, Brooke Thompson wrote: >> For those not as glued to unfiction and ARGN as I am, there's been an >> "interesting development": Martin Aggett is a fictional character who >> planted himself heavily into the ARG community - so heavily that the guy >> behind it began to have second thoughts and when he decided he wanted to >> attend ARGFest he figured that would be the point of no return. >> >> However, before he came out, he had: >> * participated in discussions and played games on unfiction >> * helped with ARGdb >> * gone behind the scenes with a grassroots team developing a game >> * become friends with a number of people, beyond superficial game playing >> relationships >> * written an article for ARGN >> > > Thanks for bringing this up, Brooke. I think Martin/Steve's biggest > mistake was looking at Terms of Service and thinking, "Well, that > doesn't apply to me." It's happened before, it'll happen again, and > that's because there will always be people who think a rule wasn't > mean for THEM.. But I wonder if something akin to this doesn't happen > all the time. And I'm not even talking about in ARGs, either. > > We live in a time when your public and online representation of > yourself doesn't necessarily have a lot to do with who you are, > really. On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog, right? We > puppetmasters use this to our advantage, but so do regular people > sometimes. There are the ones who post about dramatic breakups or fab > parties that probably don't happen, to make their lives seem a little > more exciting. There are the ones who deceive by omission: too painful > to talk about getting divorced, so online I'll just stay married, you > know? > > So while this is a particularly gaudy example of that kind of thing... > well... I guess I'm just philosophical about it. At the end of the > day, the window dressing might have been a little different than it > should have been, but the mind you were interacting with is the same. > I can see why some people feel terribly betrayed, but at the end of > the day... it is still the same guy. > > Though as they say, I don't have a horse in this race, and it's > probably easier to be philosophical about something when you're > disengaged from it. > From brooke at giantmice.com Thu Jun 25 09:18:21 2009 From: brooke at giantmice.com (Brooke Thompson) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 09:18:21 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Deception and what it means to be Real In-Reply-To: <4A433232.8070505@uta.fi> References: <154C396A-1098-465E-BDBD-F5CDB8269F78@giantmice.com> <5c799fd60906181326w6aae39d3u448129e0a43a0890@mail.gmail.com> <4A433232.8070505@uta.fi> Message-ID: On Jun 25, 2009, at 4:15 AM, Markus Montola wrote: > I think it's interesting to see people trying to build a kind of an > inverse magic circle here. ARGs span everywhere and play with > deception and fabrication everywhere, but there is a problem if > someone brings the deception on the home ground of the deception > afficionados. > > I mean -- is it morally and ethically acceptable to have a game > character create a Facebook presence? As I have understood, that is > against the TOS/EULA of Facebook. If yes, why are the Unfiction > terms of service more significant? Why is Unfiction's "Forums are > out of game -- no exceptions" any more forceful statement than "This > is not a game"? > > The Swedes at The Company P have the habit of occasionally being/ > playing game characters themselves. I mean, for example, that Martin > Ericsson showed up in the final event of Sanningen om Marika *as > himself*, except that like all the players, he was following the > game's central theme "Play as if it was real". Besides, what's a > "real persona" anyway in a nickname community? You can't base trust > on realness, since realness does not exist. > The thing is.... statements such as "This is not a game" and "Play as if it was real" imply that there is, in fact, a game or something to play. Over the course of five months, Martin Aggett never implied that he was a part of a larger fiction - no wink or nod. in fact, if the person behind him hadn't started feeling guilty about the whole thing, it could have gone on for another year before there was any hint that he might be a part of a larger fiction. So, how do you play along with something when you don't have any clue that there is something to play along with? That is where deception comes in to play. You may say that the ARG community is "the home ground of the deception afficionados" but the reality is that the ARG community is, more, the home ground of people that want to play as if things were real. They don't want to be deceived anymore than the average person wants to be deceived: they want to play along. Even in the movie The Game, the character was aware of the game's presence. And that awareness drove his actions. It was still very much "real" to him -- so much so that he attempted to kill himself which, well, was part of the game. It still had that nice "mindfuck" factor that many who advocate extreme blurring of the lines seem to be looking for. But he still knew it was just a game. There was still something for him to play and/or play along with. As for how we can trust anything in this world where we are all just personas... well, I would argue that there's a difference between a persona and a character. You might think it's just semantics and, perhaps, you would be right. A persona, though, is nothing more than a public front. Britney Spears, for example, may be a complete mess in her real life but on the stage she is a well put together and choreographed act. That is her persona. She is not a character, however, as characters are a part of a fictional world - no matter how based in reality that world may be. A persona, because it is just a public front, can have intent and free will in the real world. A character, because it knows nothing more than it's fictional world, does not have free will and cannot have intent outside of its fictional universe. Oh, sure, the author of the character may have intent for the character that is very much in the real world space - they may intend for the character to tug at someone's heartstrings or guide them through the story, but that is the author's intent and not the character's. The character's intent is just to find her missing friend or bring down the evil corporation. It is in understanding that intent that we know how to interact with one another. Assume, for a second, that we're little wolf cubs. We do the cute little baby animal thing and fight back and forth. We scratch and nip at each other and it's all good fun because we know that none of us really means to hurt the other. Now, suddenly, you decide it would be much more fun to play for real - you bite me, for real. After my initial shock - ouch! you jerk! you bit me! - I know that your intent is not to just play but to fight. My reaction could be to run away and lick my wounds or it could be to come at you with full force. The intent changed and so did our relationship and our interactions. When interacting with a persona online, I am aware that their intent is based in the real world and that there is a real person behind it. I treat it as such and interact as such. If, however, I am exploring something that I think may be a game, my interactions are a bit different - I may "play as if it was real" but I am still playing. What happened in the case of Martin Aggett is that I was deceived into becoming a part of a game that I did not know even existed and, therefore, I had no way of actually playing let alone playing as if it was real. From jeromy at 12thstreethouse.com Thu Jun 25 10:23:33 2009 From: jeromy at 12thstreethouse.com (Jeromy Barber) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 09:23:33 -0500 Subject: [arg_discuss] Deception and what it means to be Real In-Reply-To: References: <154C396A-1098-465E-BDBD-F5CDB8269F78@giantmice.com> <5c799fd60906181326w6aae39d3u448129e0a43a0890@mail.gmail.com> <4A433232.8070505@uta.fi> Message-ID: <000001c9f5a0$85b08380$91118a80$@com> I've been hesitant to respond to this situation because I'm not terribly active at unfiction, did not know Martin Aggett, and felt this probably wasn't my business. However, I'm going to chime in anyway. :) It's clear that a lot of folks have been wounded and feel as though they've been tricked. However, from the outside looking in, it looks like these kinds of things would be expected in/from this community. I produce a small game called Maddison Atkins, and to varying degrees, people create false identities on the website (which is clearly an OOG area.) As long as they aren't hurting themselves, others or the game, I let it go. I've concluded that it comes with the territory of producing an ARG and that the players can navigate who they trust and who they don't trust. The Martin Aggett is definitely an extreme scenario. There are complexities that both sides of this issue have to offer, so it does stir up some interesting conversation. It's one of those conflicts where it's a real big deal and not a real big deal all at the same time. I'm under the thumb of some tough deadlines, so I apologize for not explaining further. Jeromy From deusexmachinatio at gmail.com Thu Jun 25 11:55:57 2009 From: deusexmachinatio at gmail.com (Andrea Phillips) Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2009 11:55:57 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Deception and what it means to be Real In-Reply-To: <000001c9f5a0$85b08380$91118a80$@com> References: <154C396A-1098-465E-BDBD-F5CDB8269F78@giantmice.com> <5c799fd60906181326w6aae39d3u448129e0a43a0890@mail.gmail.com> <4A433232.8070505@uta.fi> <000001c9f5a0$85b08380$91118a80$@com> Message-ID: <5c799fd60906250855n128808b7jbc6531ad03ad872e@mail.gmail.com> It seems to me that this is a type of problem we'll always grapple with, and it comes in a lot of different forms: Is it a fiction, is it a hoax, is it both? And there are so many places where we can run foul of that line, on purpose or not so much. Some people will think the whole game is really real, which makes it a hoax; some people will only stumble on a piece of the game and think it's real. (In Routes, we were very cautious about the pharma company websites we were making, in case a real person with, say, Parkinson's, might think that the drug company and its 'clinical trials' were real.) What's a hoax and what's a fiction can depend an awful lot on context, and not everybody has the same context. Martin hits into the undesirable "hoax" end of that spectrum because there was no visible fiction in process; there simply was no context, whether you were looking for it or not. As others have said, you just didn't know you were entering a play space when you were talking to him, and that's not cool. There's actually a flip side to this, too -- for Routes, there was a player on Unfiction who posted an entirely fictitious interaction with our characters. Private email we never sent at all! It didn't really harm the direction of the story, but it made me realize how vulnerable both we and the players are to that kind of intentional deception. Obviously we couldn't post to the Unforums to contradict it, and I'm not sure if there's a mechanism to deal with this sort of thing in place in the moderation setup... especially when, for many games, you can never really be sure who the PMs really are. We're going to keep throwing ourselves at that line, again and again. It's just a risk of the trade, the way football players get concussions and runners get busted knees. -- Andrea Phillips http://www.deusexmachinatio.com Words * Culture * Interaction From mmonello at campfirenyc.com Fri Jun 26 15:17:10 2009 From: mmonello at campfirenyc.com (Michael Monello) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 12:17:10 -0700 Subject: [arg_discuss] Deception and what it means to be Real In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I agree with Brooke on the difference between a persona and a character, and I do think it is important for the audience to understand who/what they are dealing with, otherwise the interaction isn't "honest." If "honest" can be used in this context, that is! I think the most important thing is to recognize that these incidents are simply further illustration that we still live in the nascent stages of ARGs and cross media storytelling, and that the people who create these games take away valuable best practices from them. Open conversations such as this go a long way towards turning the negative into a positive. My apologies in advance for not having anything provocative to say on the topic. I'm hoping Mr. Clark can pick up some of the slack. ;) Mike --- Mike Monello Partner, Campfire 62 White Street, 3E New York, NY 10013 212-612-9600 http://www.campfirenyc.com From scpeters at gmail.com Fri Jun 26 15:35:28 2009 From: scpeters at gmail.com (Steve Peters) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 12:35:28 -0700 Subject: [arg_discuss] Deception and what it means to be Real In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0AB3F326D893495EB690EA8E94F7F8AA@ruprecht> All I'd say is that it's all history repeating itself to a great extent. Back in the day, wasn't there outrage at the fact that Robinson Crusoe wasn't real? And there's my personal aspiration, the War of the Worlds broadcasts (all three of them). :) *awaits Brian Clark...... -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Michael Monello Sent: Friday, June 26, 2009 12:17 PM To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] Deception and what it means to be Real I agree with Brooke on the difference between a persona and a character, and I do think it is important for the audience to understand who/what they are dealing with, otherwise the interaction isn't "honest." If "honest" can be used in this context, that is! I think the most important thing is to recognize that these incidents are simply further illustration that we still live in the nascent stages of ARGs and cross media storytelling, and that the people who create these games take away valuable best practices from them. Open conversations such as this go a long way towards turning the negative into a positive. My apologies in advance for not having anything provocative to say on the topic. I'm hoping Mr. Clark can pick up some of the slack. ;) Mike --- Mike Monello Partner, Campfire 62 White Street, 3E New York, NY 10013 212-612-9600 http://www.campfirenyc.com _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From bclark at gmdstudios.com Fri Jun 26 18:23:37 2009 From: bclark at gmdstudios.com (Brian Clark) Date: Fri, 26 Jun 2009 18:23:37 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Deception and what it means to be Real In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6F84089566F9444EB74FA21440B96F19@Tricorder> > My apologies in advance for not having anything provocative to say on the > topic. I'm hoping Mr. Clark can pick up some of the slack. You're completely slacking, Monello. I'm managing to hold three completely different opinions at the same time over here. >From an audience perspective, teh Internets aren't to be believed! They are filled with lies! Those things that aren't outright hoaxes or lies might include their variants: political spin, advertising deception and hidden agendas! You have been forewarned: anything that touches the Internet has that potential as well. Or: what Markus said. >From a community of creators perspective, I keeping thinking how all this storm of discussion misses the simplest solution. Where this particular case failed was having no "guardrail" -- that's all they needed, one marker somewhere that you could bump against. Hundreds of solutions to that problem: at GMD, we typically use the "don't hide the ownership of the domain name" guardrail -- someone eventually checks the domain registration, and then ends up at our site and for the savvy the jig is up on any perceived deception. Tons of other solutions for that, though, some more subtle (think "This is My Milwaukee") and some less subtle (think "Dark Knight"). Personally, as a creator, I'm not ready to give up on "well intentioned deception" as a tool in my toolbox (deception is the step-sister of surprise when handled carefully, like it were radioactive.) At the TARP ARG panel craziness at SXSW, there was one poor lady there from the government who was clearly expecting the panel to be what it said it was (but she didn't seem upset with us once she experienced it.) Others might have had looser expectations but still get agitated by the hecklers and protestors (not realizing we brought them with us and they were part of the experience). One woman ran from the room when we showed her picture on the screen and "the police" asked her to step forward. A huge range of reactions regarding expectation and deception just in that one room for an hour. Monello further slacked in not pointing out that this is the classic problem of "turning the tip" (to use the sideshow phrase for it): how do you turn the audience you just deceived by making them feel a part of the secret instead of the butt of a joke at their expense. Conceivably, one could "turn the tip" without having to use a guardrail, but guardrails require less nuance. "Martin Aggett" both failed to have a guardrail, and then failed to turn the tip. "Hoax" is a pejorative phrase for "fiction" that implies you never intended to turn the tip: you thought you'd "get away with it" and "pull one over their eyes". "Martin" giving up the deception as an apology might be interpreted as not trying to turn the tip, but having a story about how he intended to. Those stories never end well. Have a great weekend ... mere weeks until ARG-Fest! Brian From markus.montola at uta.fi Sat Jun 27 05:56:48 2009 From: markus.montola at uta.fi (Markus Montola) Date: Sat, 27 Jun 2009 12:56:48 +0300 Subject: [arg_discuss] Deception and what it means to be Real In-Reply-To: References: <154C396A-1098-465E-BDBD-F5CDB8269F78@giantmice.com> <5c799fd60906181326w6aae39d3u448129e0a43a0890@mail.gmail.com> <4A433232.8070505@uta.fi> Message-ID: <4A45ECE0.9000502@uta.fi> Hmm, interesting. :-) I don't have an opinion on this, just thoughts. Pardon if I'm getting long-winded here. Brooke: > So, how do you play along with something when you don't have any clue > that there is something to play along with? That's the question. What kind of a "nod" or "wink" is sufficient to categorize something as playful. In my eyes, Sacha Baron Cohen is literally screaming those nods and winks all over the movie Borat. But when people just don't notice, were they winked at? The point is: If the wink is not read as a wink, it is -- for the purposes of the experience -- not a wink. And when you play with the boundary of not being a game, you *will* have people who didn't read the wink. Unlike Brian perhaps, I don't think guardrail gives you any excuse or alibi, except if it is found. In Swedish Sanningen om Marika a clear and obvious disclaimer popup on the website was not enough of a wink for many people. In order to solve this problem, one trend seems to be building a (secret) code of huge and obvious --WINK--'s aimed precisely at ARGers. "TINAG" being the most obvious one. I think one place where these things came from places where enjoyable experiences were created to people who don't know there is something to play along with. For example: http://improveverywhere.com/2002/02/02/surprise/ http://improveverywhere.com/2005/05/21/even-better-than-the-real-thing/ even http://improveverywhere.com/2009/06/02/surprise-wedding-reception/ One thing IE shows us is that play activities can be very much fun, even when you are deceived of the nature of the play. Dunno if this would apply to an excellent discussion someone may have had with Aggett. In Momentum we (I was researching, not designing) had players go obtain a painting from an art gallery. The gallery owners were not notified that the painting had to do with the game when it was planted in the gallery. When the larper players started strolling in, showing strange curiosity towards the painting, they grew suspicious, starting to google the fake names the players gave them et cetera. It was a little bit of a wink, but when my colleague Jaakko went to interview them afterwards, they had not had any real possibility to figure out what had been going on. They of course loved the experience, even though it had been strange and possibly a little bit disquieting. They didn't want to participate in the long-lasting game any further, stating that it wouldn't be fun now that they knew it was a game. (+ a dozen million other examples. It's fun thing to see what's on an USB stick you found from the toilet even before you know it's a NIN ARG.) Perhaps I fail to see the negativity associated with "hoaxes", "pranks" and "deception" here. We have a lot of examples shown how benevolent deception is forgiven and appreciated after the enjoyable experience. "Aggett" revealed himself before he had had the opportunity to create a positive experience -- possibly getting cold feet about the possibility of creating such an experience, I don't know. > A persona, though, is nothing more than a public front. Britney Spears, > for example, may be a complete mess in her real life but on the stage > she is a well put together and choreographed act. That is her persona. > She is not a character, however, as characters are a part of a fictional > world - no matter how based in reality that world may be. > > A persona, because it is just a public front, can have intent and free > will in the real world. A character, because it knows nothing more than > it's fictional world, does not have free will and cannot have intent > outside of its fictional universe. Oh, sure, the author of the character > may have intent for the character that is very much in the real world > space - they may intend for the character to tug at someone's > heartstrings or guide them through the story, but that is the author's > intent and not the character's. The character's intent is just to find > her missing friend or bring down the evil corporation. I don't buy this total fact/fiction separation here. Many pretenders and characters act in the domain of "real life". In my life, Britney Spears is a character, about as real (?) as Australia or Andromeda to me; never seen it, never experienced it, just heard stories that construct some kind of an image. Those stories tell me that she is very much a fabrication, a product created to please an audience, just like Bree of lonelygirl15 or Martin Aggett. When Britney/Bree smiles at "me" on the video, it's an act, just like Bree is an act. And when I now add a smiley to the opening of this email, it's an act of conveying my delight of this interesting discussion, but also a conscious act to influence you the reader. It's all about how we present ourselves. In my opinion, performances such as Aggett's and Britney's, are not "fiction", whatever that means. > What happened in the case of Martin Aggett is that I was deceived into > becoming a part of a game that I did not know even existed and, > therefore, I had no way of actually playing let alone playing as if it > was real. If Aggett had pulled it through, you might have experienced a progression from unawareness to awareness. Is that a not novel rabbit hole if anything? Of course, if people say they were insulted/offended/upset, I really believe that they genuinely were: Even though nothing is real and we'll never know, words are not just words. I mean -- if Rheta Shan faked her death in a classical masquerader maneuver, it was a fairly heartless thing to do. http://pervasivegames.wordpress.com/2009/05/16/rest-in-peace-rheta-shan/ Playing on the edge of game and real is like playing with fire, and sometimes someone gets burnt. The moral problem is that you can't volunteer to unaware or semi aware participation, so someone is taking the risk on your behalf. Personally my surprise is that (like Aggett, I guess), I would have assumed that the people at Unfiction would have been likely to appreciate the long-term work he was doing, in order to possibly create fascinating rabbit hole experiences. Then again, I'm not a member there and do not follow the discussions, so I don't really know. Best, - Markus Montola PS. Our book Pervasive Games is now on paper too. :-) It has one chapter on ethics, and tells a lot more on games such as Sanningen om Marika and Momentum. http://pervasivegames.wordpress.com/2009/05/16/rest-in-peace-rheta-shan/ From andrhia at gmail.com Sun Jun 28 20:17:02 2009 From: andrhia at gmail.com (Andrea Phillips) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 20:17:02 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Fwd: Indie SIG Reboot: 10 Brave Souls needed! In-Reply-To: <76b841590906251900p45ac4449of52587c7d6686088@mail.gmail.com> References: <76b841590906251900p45ac4449of52587c7d6686088@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5c799fd60906281717k7f97fc40j9f4125d8c05ff91f@mail.gmail.com> Just passing on the good word from another SIG: The Indie SIG, which for obvious reasons has a lot in common with us, is looking to reboot. You can sign up to be part of the effort at http://groups.google.com/group/indiereboot if your heart is so moved. Carry on. ^_^ ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Michael Lubker Date: Thu, Jun 25, 2009 at 8:57 PM Subject: 10 Brave Souls needed! http://www.igda.org/Forums/showthread.php?s=a32589b6257fb7d2cbbb7f1e2797a7d2&threadid=36197 Indie SIG reboot - anyone interested in helping? ~M -- ~ "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" - Benjamin Franklin http://zeolitestudios.com http://tinyurl.com/movenrace -- Andrea Phillips http://www.deusexmachinatio.com Words * Culture * Interaction From andrhia at gmail.com Sun Jun 28 20:38:33 2009 From: andrhia at gmail.com (Andrea Phillips) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 20:38:33 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Topic of the Week Suggestions Message-ID: <5c799fd60906281738x487f3346m4605d1ca67b9b0fd@mail.gmail.com> Some time ago, the SIG began a Topic of the Week feature, which almost immediately fizzled into something more like a Topic of the Whenever We Remember to Post One Which Is Sporadic At Best. I quite like the idea of a topic of the week, though. In an effort to keep it going more reliably, I've done two things. I've made a new wiki page for ToW suggestions, which you may find here: http://www.igda.org/wiki/Alternate_Reality_Games_SIG/ToW_Ideas If you're not comfortable editing the wiki page yourself, feel free to email me your suggestions and I'll pop them into the wiki myself. I've also set up an alert on my calendar to mail a Topic of the Week on Monday mornings. Hopefully this will translate into an actual action on my part; but priorities being what they are, on the days when somebody is paying me actual cash money to do something else, odds are good it won't happen. In such an event, I would be thrilled and delighted if someone -- anyone! -- would step in. (Can you tell it's the slot on my calendar marked 'deal with pending IGDA issues'? I've got one or two more coming, yet. Sorry!) -- Andrea Phillips http://www.deusexmachinatio.com Words * Culture * Interaction From andrhia at gmail.com Sun Jun 28 21:10:41 2009 From: andrhia at gmail.com (Andrea Phillips) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 21:10:41 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] IRC Chats -- When is Good? Message-ID: <5c799fd60906281810v7d356c7cs1867b4466fa42d1@mail.gmail.com> Historically we've had a little trouble scheduling our casual IRC chats. This is because we've wanted to be as inclusive as possible, but we're trying to accommodate a lot of conflicting criteria. Most notably, we've wanted to make at least some chats accessible for people in any time zone; and we've also tried to make the chats accessible both to people who prefer to do SIG activities only during working hours, and those who can't possibly participate during working hours. Previous solutions to this have ranged from messy to incomprehensible. So! I'm making with the science, and taking a POLL of when is most good for the most people in the list, from whenisgood.com. Please note these IMPORTANT FACTS before you vote: * Please mark your preferences as converted to EASTERN TIME U.S. This tool does not calculate or adjust for you! If you need help working out what your best time are in EST, try an online tool such as: http://www.timezoneconverter.com/ * The poll has specific dates listed, but it is NOT for those specific dates only. Ignore them, and instead please note the times you are generally available to participate in a chat during a TYPICAL WEEK. OK, now that you're fully informed, voter, go ahead and let me know what time is good for you here: http://whenisgood.net/rpxYrS Thanks so much! -- Andrea Phillips http://www.deusexmachinatio.com Words * Culture * Interaction From deusexmachinatio at gmail.com Sun Jun 28 21:32:05 2009 From: deusexmachinatio at gmail.com (Andrea Phillips) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 21:32:05 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] ARGology Administration Message-ID: <5c799fd60906281832q50a2081v4b342534a1fe9053@mail.gmail.com> As per the below post from John Evans... I suspect a number of us would like to see more stuff posted to ARGology, but 1. Nobody wants to overstep their authority and just post stuff, and 2. Nobody knows exactly who the authority is to ask The sensible thing to do, therefore, is form a governing body of some sort, probably a smaller private email list Basically this is what I envision should happen: * People will volunteer to be on the ARGology committee and added to this theoretical list. * When people would like to post something to ARGology, they bring it up on this ARGology list. * If nobody says otherwise after, say, 24 hours, the idea-bringer would be free to post. In order to make this happen, we need both a small, private email list and volunteers to subscribe thereto. (Well, and a general agreement that this is an OK way to proceed.) I could in theory start looking into the email list bit tonight, but I'm running out of SIG-related steam right around now, so let me throw it out to you guys: Anyone know a quick and easy way to set something like this up? Anyone want to participate in such a thing? Anyone have a better idea than this? Annnnnd that's all from me for tonight. Thanks, folks. You've been a great crowd! On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 8:18 PM, John Evans wrote: > Thanks, Andrea, I hope to be a credit to the list. > > Regarding the various tasks: > >>* Care and feeding of ARGology, especially in terms of putting up new >>content. From time to time I think about putting something up, but >>don't want to step on anyone's toes! --And I bet other people feel >>that way, too. Clearly this needs sorting out. > > I've got all the hosting and admin privileges for ARGology, so I'll > be pitching in for this one. Every now and then some interesting > things have been posted to this list, things that I've thought would > make for good ARGology content, but I don't want to just grab someone's > post and publish it without getting their okay. > > -- > John Evans > Chaoseed Software - http://chaoseed.com > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > -- Andrea Phillips http://www.deusexmachinatio.com Words * Culture * Interaction From brooke at giantmice.com Sun Jun 28 22:28:55 2009 From: brooke at giantmice.com (Brooke Thompson) Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 22:28:55 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] ARGology Administration In-Reply-To: <5c799fd60906281832q50a2081v4b342534a1fe9053@mail.gmail.com> References: <5c799fd60906281832q50a2081v4b342534a1fe9053@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Jun 28, 2009, at 9:32 PM, Andrea Phillips wrote: > In order to make this happen, we need both a small, private email list > and volunteers to subscribe thereto. (Well, and a general agreement > that this is an OK way to proceed.) I could in theory start looking > into the email list bit tonight, but I'm running out of SIG-related > steam right around now, so let me throw it out to you guys: > > Anyone know a quick and easy way to set something like this up? > Anyone want to participate in such a thing? > Anyone have a better idea than this? As far as setting up a mailing list - mailing lists are an option with most hosts (not sure what host argology is using) and it's really easy to set up. An alternative to that would be to set something up on google or y! which is also super simple. But, does it really require a separate list? I can't imagine that it would get much traffic and we're low volume enough here (well, we are unless I get all crazy about deception again ;)) that I don't think it would really get in the way - especially if ARGology was used in the subject line so that folks who aren't keen to read them can just mark it as read and move on. Plus, if it's for original content, it gives a nice chance for some feedback that might be helpful. And, if it's about something that's been posted here - it's just a matter of replying to person who wrote it privately and saying "hey, that's really interesting, we should put that on ARGology - d'ya mind?" instead of the back & forth between two lists. From cdena at cross-mediaentertainment.com Sun Jun 28 21:51:51 2009 From: cdena at cross-mediaentertainment.com (Christy Dena) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 11:51:51 +1000 Subject: [arg_discuss] ARGology Administration In-Reply-To: <5c799fd60906281832q50a2081v4b342534a1fe9053@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090629015151.ODYZ5456.nskntotgx01p.mx.bigpond.com@HPPIE> Glad to see this progressing! I'm not sure if it was ever said, but I handed ARGology over to Andrea after the launch. It takes a lot of work encouraging people to do things, and I simply haven't had the time. I ran it at the beginning by emailing everyone individually and as a group. I think a dedicated group is a great idea. You could use Google groups. As for contributing to the site. There are a couple ways I foresee this could happen: a) Make the existing ones pages sub-pages of top-level pages. New pages can be added under those themes. b) If it is more appropriate to add information to an existing page, then the time-limited request idea sounds good Andrea. I think they just need to make sure they keep the original credit on the page, and add their own name as 'additions', or something? It's fantastic to see people are keen to keep it going. I know I get a lot of hits from the site, and have had one job come from it! So people are definitely reading ARGology for information about ARGs. All the best, Christy (waves back at Andrea!) Dena -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Andrea Phillips Sent: Monday, 29 June 2009 11:32 To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG Subject: [arg_discuss] ARGology Administration As per the below post from John Evans... I suspect a number of us would like to see more stuff posted to ARGology, but 1. Nobody wants to overstep their authority and just post stuff, and 2. Nobody knows exactly who the authority is to ask The sensible thing to do, therefore, is form a governing body of some sort, probably a smaller private email list Basically this is what I envision should happen: * People will volunteer to be on the ARGology committee and added to this theoretical list. * When people would like to post something to ARGology, they bring it up on this ARGology list. * If nobody says otherwise after, say, 24 hours, the idea-bringer would be free to post. In order to make this happen, we need both a small, private email list and volunteers to subscribe thereto. (Well, and a general agreement that this is an OK way to proceed.) I could in theory start looking into the email list bit tonight, but I'm running out of SIG-related steam right around now, so let me throw it out to you guys: Anyone know a quick and easy way to set something like this up? Anyone want to participate in such a thing? Anyone have a better idea than this? Annnnnd that's all from me for tonight. Thanks, folks. You've been a great crowd! On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 8:18 PM, John Evans wrote: > Thanks, Andrea, I hope to be a credit to the list. > > Regarding the various tasks: > >>* Care and feeding of ARGology, especially in terms of putting up new >>content. From time to time I think about putting something up, but >>don't want to step on anyone's toes! --And I bet other people feel >>that way, too. Clearly this needs sorting out. > > I've got all the hosting and admin privileges for ARGology, so I'll > be pitching in for this one. Every now and then some interesting > things have been posted to this list, things that I've thought would > make for good ARGology content, but I don't want to just grab someone's > post and publish it without getting their okay. > > -- > John Evans > Chaoseed Software - http://chaoseed.com > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > -- Andrea Phillips http://www.deusexmachinatio.com Words * Culture * Interaction _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From andrhia at gmail.com Mon Jun 29 08:55:08 2009 From: andrhia at gmail.com (Andrea Phillips) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 08:55:08 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Topic of the Week June 29: How's the SIG? Message-ID: <5c799fd60906290555n7fc8d6by5232feded76be069@mail.gmail.com> This isn't exactly the kind of topical discussion we're here for, but I don't want to pull attention away from the admin stuff for a few days, so here's your Topic of the Week: How is the SIG working for you? This can lead toward a lot of bigger questions like "What is it you want out of the SIG, anyway, and are you getting it?" If you're a lurker, open up and let us know why you lurk (and what might get you to talk more.) If you're absolutely happy with how the SIG generally operates, that's great news; but if you really, really wish X and Y, then now's your chance to bring it up. :) Tangents and meandering replies welcome. Thanks! -- Andrea Phillips http://www.deusexmachinatio.com Words * Culture * Interaction From sjoerdwennekes at hotmail.com Mon Jun 29 09:51:00 2009 From: sjoerdwennekes at hotmail.com (Sjoerd Wennekes) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 15:51:00 +0200 Subject: [arg_discuss] Topic of the Week June 29: How's the SIG? In-Reply-To: <5c799fd60906290555n7fc8d6by5232feded76be069@mail.gmail.com> References: <5c799fd60906290555n7fc8d6by5232feded76be069@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: This SIG is working great for me. I'm not a very regular poster, but I read almost all the posts (if they are interesting that is.) I used this SIG last year a lot when I was working on an ARG as graduation project, I received a lot of good advises and ideas. So I think this SIG is awesome! --- Sjoerd Wennekes www.monobanda.eu Tangible Games and Fusionplay > Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 08:55:08 -0400 > From: andrhia at gmail.com > To: arg_discuss at igda.org > Subject: [arg_discuss] Topic of the Week June 29: How's the SIG? > > This isn't exactly the kind of topical discussion we're here for, but > I don't want to pull attention away from the admin stuff for a few > days, so here's your Topic of the Week: > > How is the SIG working for you? > > This can lead toward a lot of bigger questions like "What is it you > want out of the SIG, anyway, and are you getting it?" If you're a > lurker, open up and let us know why you lurk (and what might get you > to talk more.) If you're absolutely happy with how the SIG generally > operates, that's great news; but if you really, really wish X and Y, > then now's your chance to bring it up. :) > > Tangents and meandering replies welcome. Thanks! > > -- > Andrea Phillips > http://www.deusexmachinatio.com > Words * Culture * Interaction > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From markus.montola at uta.fi Mon Jun 29 13:47:00 2009 From: markus.montola at uta.fi (Markus Montola) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 20:47:00 +0300 Subject: [arg_discuss] Topic of the Week June 29: How's the SIG? In-Reply-To: References: <5c799fd60906290555n7fc8d6by5232feded76be069@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A48FE14.6020505@uta.fi> For me, this SIG is really useful. I lurk quite a bit, for me the largest added value is hearing about new worthwhile things. The core of my work is not ARGs, so I can't dedicate enough time to learn their ins and outs completely, so it's good to lean on Someone Else's knowledge in here and there. We actually thank the IGDA ARG SIG in the acknowledgements of our Pervasive Games book. Quite a few things would not have made it on our radar without this one. Maybe the most prominent of those is the Mystery on Fifth Avenue, which was discussed briefly a year ago -- we went as far as to contact the creators, and they wrote us a case study on that game. So -- thank you. :-) Glad to be here. - Markus Montola Sjoerd Wennekes kirjoitti: > This SIG is working great for me. > I'm not a very regular poster, but I read almost all the posts (if they are interesting that is.) > > I used this SIG last year a lot when I was working on an ARG as graduation project, I received a lot of good advises and ideas. > So I think this SIG is awesome! > > --- > Sjoerd Wennekes > www.monobanda.eu > Tangible Games and Fusionplay From deusexmachinatio at gmail.com Mon Jun 29 20:24:00 2009 From: deusexmachinatio at gmail.com (Andrea Phillips) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 20:24:00 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] ARGology Administration In-Reply-To: References: <5c799fd60906281832q50a2081v4b342534a1fe9053@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5c799fd60906291724u3504c666tba950f132150aa04@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 10:28 PM, Brooke Thompson wrote: > As far as setting up a mailing list - mailing lists are an option with most > hosts (not sure what host argology is using) and it's really easy to set up. > An alternative to that would be to set something up on google or y! which is > also super simple. Yeah, a small Google group is probably the trick. Give me until next weekend to work up the energy, assuming anybody volunteers. ^_^ > But, does it really require a separate list? I can't imagine that it would > get much traffic and we're low volume enough here (well, we are unless I get > all crazy about deception again ;)) that I don't think it would really get > in the way - especially if ARGology was used in the subject line so that > folks who aren't keen to read them can just mark it as read and move on. > Plus, if it's for original content, it gives a nice chance for some feedback > that might be helpful. And, if it's about something that's been posted here > - it's just a matter of replying to person who wrote it privately and saying > "hey, that's really interesting, we should put that on ARGology - d'ya > mind?" instead of the back & forth between two lists. The point of making a separate list isn't really about traffic not cluttering the list, so much as creating a sense of accountability and authority for the self-selected few individuals who choose to join it. I think we need to conjure up that feeling of ownership, one way or another. Ideally we'd get somebody to step up and say "Me, let me be in charge," but my hopes are not high on that count. We're busy folk in here. The other thing I'd be concerned about is the ol' too many cooks adage. When was the last time we reached a consensus on... anything? ^_^ -- Andrea Phillips http://www.deusexmachinatio.com Words * Culture * Interaction From wendeth at wendydespain.com Mon Jun 29 21:59:23 2009 From: wendeth at wendydespain.com (Wendy Despain) Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 18:59:23 -0700 Subject: [arg_discuss] ARGology Administration In-Reply-To: <20090629015151.ODYZ5456.nskntotgx01p.mx.bigpond.com@HPPIE> References: <20090629015151.ODYZ5456.nskntotgx01p.mx.bigpond.com@HPPIE> Message-ID: > * When people would like to post something to ARGology, they bring it > up on this ARGology list. This only works assuming the material someone wants to post to ARGology is something they wrote themselves. If it's something that was posted to the mailing list by someone else, it won't work to just bring it up on the ARGology committee mailing list. The original author needs to be notified separately, since not everyone will be on the committee. I know this seems obvious, I'm just making sure it's made explicit. :-) Wendy Despain quantumcontent.com On Sun, June 28, 2009 6:51 pm, Christy Dena wrote: > > The sensible thing to do, therefore, is form a governing body of some > sort, probably a smaller private email list Basically this is what I > envision should happen: > > * People will volunteer to be on the ARGology committee and added to > this theoretical list. > * When people would like to post something to ARGology, they bring it > up on this ARGology list. > * If nobody says otherwise after, say, 24 hours, the idea-bringer > would be free to post. From julien at extralab.fr Tue Jun 30 04:35:13 2009 From: julien at extralab.fr (Julien Aubert) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 10:35:13 +0200 Subject: [arg_discuss] Topic of the Week June 29: How's the SIG? In-Reply-To: <4A48FE14.6020505@uta.fi> References: <5c799fd60906290555n7fc8d6by5232feded76be069@mail.gmail.com> <4A48FE14.6020505@uta.fi> Message-ID: <46c4cdce0906300135n6f67c539uacbd5678fa4e21e4@mail.gmail.com> I've been working in the wine industry. We had a Wine Industry Union who was working to increase the global demand in French Wine in the world. They were doing studies, press review, advertising, events,website. This list work in the same way for me. And do fine. I lurk since almost a year now. This is list is really great because I can read discussions about the will of ARGs between people I follow on Twitter or blogs "the legends of ARGs" discussing. This is meaningfull. I remember I liked a lot the discussions about the typology of the ARGs, it actually drove you further... talking about games, story-telling, etc... I hope to find more and more case studies and statistics more generally feedback about ARGs. When I try to sensitize people behind brands in France, they always say we don't have enough facts and numbers. I know this is not the real problem with getting marketing executives into a project but this always help. Thank you a lot ;) --------- julien aubert http://www.faismoijouer.com @juli3n On Mon, Jun 29, 2009 at 7:47 PM, Markus Montola wrote: > For me, this SIG is really useful. I lurk quite a bit, for me the largest > added value is hearing about new worthwhile things. The core of my work is > not ARGs, so I can't dedicate enough time to learn their ins and outs > completely, so it's good to lean on Someone Else's knowledge in here and > there. > > We actually thank the IGDA ARG SIG in the acknowledgements of our Pervasive > Games book. Quite a few things would not have made it on our radar without > this one. Maybe the most prominent of those is the Mystery on Fifth Avenue, > which was discussed briefly a year ago -- we went as far as to contact the > creators, and they wrote us a case study on that game. > > > So -- thank you. :-) Glad to be here. > > > - Markus Montola > > Sjoerd Wennekes kirjoitti: > >> This SIG is working great for me. >> I'm not a very regular poster, but I read almost all the posts (if they >> are interesting that is.) >> >> I used this SIG last year a lot when I was working on an ARG as graduation >> project, I received a lot of good advises and ideas. >> So I think this SIG is awesome! >> >> --- >> Sjoerd Wennekes >> www.monobanda.eu >> Tangible Games and Fusionplay >> > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >