From langdell at gmail.com Mon Feb 2 12:05:16 2009 From: langdell at gmail.com (Tim Langdell) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 09:05:16 -0800 Subject: [arg_discuss] IGDA Board Voting Has Started References: <132A2233DD61A44DA1F1BC326DC2C8CF061EDF33@erd-chi-exmb3.corp.trb> <142158890638631253118827900899378808217-Webmail@me.com> Message-ID: <0fff01c98558$6d26ded0$0201a8c0@PC> A message from Tim Langdell: Just to let everyone know this year's voting for new members of the IGDA Board has started. I am honored to be one of your candidates and hope you will please consider voting for me. Should you not wish to vote for me, may I please encourage you to vote for someone. Thank you. Here are this year's candidates: *.. Gordon Bellamy - Business Development, Image Metrics *.. Greg Boyd - Attorney, Davis & Gilbert LLP *.. Alfredo Chaves - CEO/President, Blue Lizard Games *.. Jared W.Eden - Producer, Buzz Monkey Software *.. Clinton Keith - Scrum Trainer & agile coach *.. Tim Langdell - Independent Game Designer & Developer / Lead Game Professor, National University *.. Michael Lubker - Software Business and Technical Development Manager, ADC *.. Adam Martin - independent developer *.. Marc Mencher - President and CEO, GameRecruiter.com *.. Jamil Moledina - Outreach Director, EA Partners *.. Aaron Murray - Technical Director / Founder, Tandem Games *.. Brian Robbins - Studio Head, Fuel Games Denver *.. Tobi Saulnier - Founder and CEO, 1st Playable Productions *.. Ian Schreiber - independent developer *.. Dylan Tredrea - Executive Producer, Creo Ludus Entertainment *.. Ben Wibberley - VP North America, Babel Media http://www.igda.org/board/elections.php From aaron.hildebrandt at gmail.com Mon Feb 2 13:02:35 2009 From: aaron.hildebrandt at gmail.com (Aaron Scott Hildebrandt) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 12:02:35 -0600 Subject: [arg_discuss] The viability of small-scale ARG Message-ID: For the last couple years, I've been involved in small-scale ARGs. I'd call them small-scale because they only have one person who is truly "playing" -- everyone else is acting. We're usually approached by a friend or significant other of someone once-removed from us, so we don't know the player. They give us a date where they assure us the player has the next 24 hours free. On that day, we wake them up and give them an initial task (for example, rescue their "kidnapped" girlfriend). The next 24 hours are a carefully planned sequence of events that puts them in the center of a massive terrorist plot that only they can stop. The events can get truly epic -- we've even jumped the player, tied them up, and flew them on a small plane to a nearby city where they were "tortured", only to escape.and have no idea where they are... until they realize the importance of the map they found on a dead body in a hotel room earlier in the day. The game lasts a full 24 hours, and every hour is action-packed. We have a number of people who are usually involved as actors and actresses, and without exception it's always gone exceedingly well. The unsuspecting player always embraces the game and their role in it completely (usually because they know that even if they don't see them, their significant other / friends are involved). So far, we've run one game per year for the past... four years, I think? The thing is, this is something we've been doing purely because we love doing it. It costs between $500 and $1200 to pull off, and the expenses have always been covered 100% by my friend, who also does most of the planning (I'm usually one of the lead actors and help with some of the technical stuff). We've never asked for a cent from the player or his friends. We've been talking this last while about how viable it would be to continue doing these ARGs, but for paying customers. Are there any companies that have successfully done this? I know it opens us up to a whole range of problems, from liability to finding clients who would be willing to pay a pretty steep fee for our services (between the actual expense of the day and the months of planning put into it). I know that companies like The Go Game do this on a much larger scale... is there anyone out there doing this on as small a scale as us, but trying to do it as a viable business? Just for the record, we are not actively pursuing turning this into a business -- as long as we can afford to do it, we plan on continuing to do this for free, once a year. But if there was any way for us to turn this around and make some money, it's definitely something we'd look into. -- Aaron Scott Hildebrandt andcuriouser.com From adam.m.s.martin at googlemail.com Mon Feb 2 13:08:40 2009 From: adam.m.s.martin at googlemail.com (Adam Martin) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 18:08:40 +0000 Subject: [arg_discuss] IGDA Board Voting Has Started In-Reply-To: <0fff01c98558$6d26ded0$0201a8c0@PC> References: <132A2233DD61A44DA1F1BC326DC2C8CF061EDF33@erd-chi-exmb3.corp.trb> <142158890638631253118827900899378808217-Webmail@me.com> <0fff01c98558$6d26ded0$0201a8c0@PC> Message-ID: Ditto :). (I just voted. It took less than five seconds - the IGDA voting email saves you having to login or anything. Granted, I'd read all the statements already, before they went live :), so it'll take you longer than that - but the voting itself is painless). Adam 2009/2/2 Tim Langdell : > A message from Tim Langdell: > > Just to let everyone know this year's voting for new members of the IGDA > Board has started. I am honored to be one of your candidates and hope you > will please consider voting for me. Should you not wish to vote for me, may > I please encourage you to vote for someone. Thank you. > > Here are this year's candidates: > > *.. Gordon Bellamy - Business Development, Image Metrics > *.. Greg Boyd - Attorney, Davis & Gilbert LLP > *.. Alfredo Chaves - CEO/President, Blue Lizard Games > *.. Jared W.Eden - Producer, Buzz Monkey Software > *.. Clinton Keith - Scrum Trainer & agile coach > *.. Tim Langdell - Independent Game Designer & Developer / Lead Game > Professor, National University > *.. Michael Lubker - Software Business and Technical Development Manager, > ADC > *.. Adam Martin - independent developer > *.. Marc Mencher - President and CEO, GameRecruiter.com > *.. Jamil Moledina - Outreach Director, EA Partners > *.. Aaron Murray - Technical Director / Founder, Tandem Games > *.. Brian Robbins - Studio Head, Fuel Games Denver > *.. Tobi Saulnier - Founder and CEO, 1st Playable Productions > *.. Ian Schreiber - independent developer > *.. Dylan Tredrea - Executive Producer, Creo Ludus Entertainment > *.. Ben Wibberley - VP North America, Babel Media > > > > http://www.igda.org/board/elections.php > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > From mmonello at campfirenyc.com Mon Feb 2 13:59:49 2009 From: mmonello at campfirenyc.com (Mike Monello) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 10:59:49 -0800 Subject: [arg_discuss] The viability of small-scale ARG In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Aaron, This is an interesting concept and there are other organizations pursuing something similar. You should check out the Interactive Performance Lab at University of Central Florida ( http://www.iplonline.org/ ). Jeff Wirth, the very smart Executive Director of the lab has been doing weekend long programs he calls "Simu-Life" with an eye towards the idea that people might actually travel to Orlando to immerse themselves in a scenario for a weekend as a vacation activity. I was peripherally involved in one he did with the Florida Film Festival back in 2006: http://www.iplonline.org/thevoice/index.php (Brian Clark was part of that as well so he may chime in). I know Jeff was interested in exploring how media might be created from the experience that has a life beyond the performance, but as we all can attest that is a tough nut to crack. It's an interesting concept but scale is an issue. -Mike On 2/2/09 1:02 PM, "Aaron Scott Hildebrandt" wrote: For the last couple years, I've been involved in small-scale ARGs. I'd call them small-scale because they only have one person who is truly "playing" -- everyone else is acting. We're usually approached by a friend or significant other of someone once-removed from us, so we don't know the player. They give us a date where they assure us the player has the next 24 hours free. On that day, we wake them up and give them an initial task (for example, rescue their "kidnapped" girlfriend). The next 24 hours are a carefully planned sequence of events that puts them in the center of a massive terrorist plot that only they can stop. The events can get truly epic -- we've even jumped the player, tied them up, and flew them on a small plane to a nearby city where they were "tortured", only to escape.and have no idea where they are... until they realize the importance of the map they found on a dead body in a hotel room earlier in the day. The game lasts a full 24 hours, and every hour is action-packed. We have a number of people who are usually involved as actors and actresses, and without exception it's always gone exceedingly well. The unsuspecting player always embraces the game and their role in it completely (usually because they know that even if they don't see them, their significant other / friends are involved). So far, we've run one game per year for the past... four years, I think? The thing is, this is something we've been doing purely because we love doing it. It costs between $500 and $1200 to pull off, and the expenses have always been covered 100% by my friend, who also does most of the planning (I'm usually one of the lead actors and help with some of the technical stuff). We've never asked for a cent from the player or his friends. We've been talking this last while about how viable it would be to continue doing these ARGs, but for paying customers. Are there any companies that have successfully done this? I know it opens us up to a whole range of problems, from liability to finding clients who would be willing to pay a pretty steep fee for our services (between the actual expense of the day and the months of planning put into it). I know that companies like The Go Game do this on a much larger scale... is there anyone out there doing this on as small a scale as us, but trying to do it as a viable business? Just for the record, we are not actively pursuing turning this into a business -- as long as we can afford to do it, we plan on continuing to do this for free, once a year. But if there was any way for us to turn this around and make some money, it's definitely something we'd look into. -- Aaron Scott Hildebrandt andcuriouser.com _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss --- Mike Monello Partner, Campfire 62 White Street, 3E New York, NY 10013 212-612-9600 http://www.campfirenyc.com From langdell at gmail.com Mon Feb 16 14:19:46 2009 From: langdell at gmail.com (Tim Langdell) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 11:19:46 -0800 Subject: [arg_discuss] IGDA Board, votes still needed please References: Message-ID: <035e01c9906b$88d8f4b0$0301a8c0@PC> I got a message saying we are still a few votes short of what we need for the IGDA Board voting, so if you have not voted yet please consider doing so. If not for me, then for someone. Tim Langdell From kevin_n_burrell at yahoo.com Thu Feb 19 12:26:37 2009 From: kevin_n_burrell at yahoo.com (Kevin Burrell) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 09:26:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [arg_discuss] ARG_Discuss Digest, Vol 43, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <437274.34683.qm@web62503.mail.re1.yahoo.com> What is the URL for us who have not voted yet? Secondly, what is the best way to pose a question to the community at large regarding the ways to provoke users into constucting?an action? How do you get people to do the things you want, or do things at all? ? Thanks! Kevin Burrell Graduate Student University of Depaul?- College of Communications Media, Culture, and Society program? --- On Tue, 2/17/09, arg_discuss-request at igda.org wrote: From: arg_discuss-request at igda.org Subject: ARG_Discuss Digest, Vol 43, Issue 2 To: arg_discuss at igda.org Date: Tuesday, February 17, 2009, 9:00 AM Send ARG_Discuss mailing list submissions to arg_discuss at igda.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to arg_discuss-request at igda.org You can reach the person managing the list at arg_discuss-owner at igda.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of ARG_Discuss digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: IGDA Board, votes still needed please (Tim Langdell) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 11:19:46 -0800 From: "Tim Langdell" Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] IGDA Board, votes still needed please To: "Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG" Message-ID: <035e01c9906b$88d8f4b0$0301a8c0 at PC> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original I got a message saying we are still a few votes short of what we need for the IGDA Board voting, so if you have not voted yet please consider doing so. If not for me, then for someone. Tim Langdell ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss End of ARG_Discuss Digest, Vol 43, Issue 2 ****************************************** From bclark at gmdstudios.com Thu Feb 19 13:17:07 2009 From: bclark at gmdstudios.com (Brian Clark) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 13:17:07 -0500 Subject: [arg_discuss] ARG_Discuss Digest, Vol 43, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: <437274.34683.qm@web62503.mail.re1.yahoo.com> References: <437274.34683.qm@web62503.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1D5D1A1903CC46ACBA4B660FFE5241AE@Tricorder> Hey, Kevin ... don't have an answer for your first question, but you just posed your second one :) Can you expand a bit on what you mean? Are you asking from a game mechanics point view? An example of what you mean by "do the things you want" might be helpful. -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Kevin Burrell Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 12:27 PM To: arg_discuss at igda.org Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] ARG_Discuss Digest, Vol 43, Issue 2 What is the URL for us who have not voted yet? Secondly, what is the best way to pose a question to the community at large regarding the ways to provoke users into constucting?an action? How do you get people to do the things you want, or do things at all? ? Thanks! Kevin Burrell Graduate Student University of Depaul?- College of Communications Media, Culture, and Society program? --- On Tue, 2/17/09, arg_discuss-request at igda.org wrote: From: arg_discuss-request at igda.org Subject: ARG_Discuss Digest, Vol 43, Issue 2 To: arg_discuss at igda.org Date: Tuesday, February 17, 2009, 9:00 AM Send ARG_Discuss mailing list submissions to arg_discuss at igda.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to arg_discuss-request at igda.org You can reach the person managing the list at arg_discuss-owner at igda.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of ARG_Discuss digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: IGDA Board, votes still needed please (Tim Langdell) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 11:19:46 -0800 From: "Tim Langdell" Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] IGDA Board, votes still needed please To: "Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG" Message-ID: <035e01c9906b$88d8f4b0$0301a8c0 at PC> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original I got a message saying we are still a few votes short of what we need for the IGDA Board voting, so if you have not voted yet please consider doing so. If not for me, then for someone. Tim Langdell ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss End of ARG_Discuss Digest, Vol 43, Issue 2 ****************************************** _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From wendeth at wendydespain.com Thu Feb 19 17:31:45 2009 From: wendeth at wendydespain.com (Wendy Despain) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 14:31:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: [arg_discuss] Links for voting in the IGDA election In-Reply-To: <1D5D1A1903CC46ACBA4B660FFE5241AE@Tricorder> References: <437274.34683.qm@web62503.mail.re1.yahoo.com> <1D5D1A1903CC46ACBA4B660FFE5241AE@Tricorder> Message-ID: To vote in the IGDA elections, start with this page: http://www.igda.org/board/elections.php And click on the "ballot" link. Everybody vote for somebody! Or everybody. This is done on the "approval" method, so you can vote for as many people as you like. (If you're an IGDA member.) Wendy Despain Writing SIG Chair On Thu, February 19, 2009 10:17 am, Brian Clark wrote: > Hey, Kevin ... don't have an answer for your first question, but you > just > posed your second one :) Can you expand a bit on what you mean? Are > you > asking from a game mechanics point view? An example of what you mean > by "do > the things you want" might be helpful. > > -----Original Message----- > From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org > [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On > Behalf Of Kevin Burrell > Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2009 12:27 PM > To: arg_discuss at igda.org > Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] ARG_Discuss Digest, Vol 43, Issue 2 > > What is the URL for us who have not voted yet? Secondly, what is the > best > way to pose a question to the community at large regarding the ways to > provoke users into constucting?an action? How do you get people to do > the > things you want, or do things at all? > ? > Thanks! > Kevin Burrell > Graduate Student > University of Depaul?- College of Communications > Media, Culture, and Society program? > > --- On Tue, 2/17/09, arg_discuss-request at igda.org > wrote: > > From: arg_discuss-request at igda.org > Subject: ARG_Discuss Digest, Vol 43, Issue 2 > To: arg_discuss at igda.org > Date: Tuesday, February 17, 2009, 9:00 AM > > Send ARG_Discuss mailing list submissions to > arg_discuss at igda.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > arg_discuss-request at igda.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > arg_discuss-owner at igda.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of ARG_Discuss digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: IGDA Board, votes still needed please (Tim Langdell) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 11:19:46 -0800 > From: "Tim Langdell" > Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] IGDA Board, votes still needed please > To: "Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG" > > Message-ID: <035e01c9906b$88d8f4b0$0301a8c0 at PC> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > I got a message saying we are still a few votes short of what we need > for > the IGDA Board voting, so if you have not voted yet please consider > doing > so. If not for me, then for someone. > > Tim Langdell > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > > End of ARG_Discuss Digest, Vol 43, Issue 2 > ****************************************** > > > > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > Wendy Despain quantumcontent.com From joel_josephson at kindersite.org Mon Feb 23 02:30:10 2009 From: joel_josephson at kindersite.org (Kindersite Joel) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 09:30:10 +0200 Subject: [arg_discuss] Case Studies ARG for language learning motivation Message-ID: <2ebf01c99588$91254700$6502a8c0@770V> I last posted here in September. Thank you for the responses. To summarize: I am a partner in a European Union funded education project called ARGuing http://arg.paisley.ac.uk/index.php being coordinated by Prof. Thomas Connolly (Chair European Association for Games in Education) of Universityof West of Scotland. The project is using an ARG to motivate European students to engage with language learning, but is also looking at ways that teachers can utilize our work and experience in building and piloting the ARG, within their own work. We will post results here later. One of the steps we need to take within the project is to examine and include 'Case Studies' of the use of other ARGs or similar games in education. I would be very grateful if you could help me by sending me any literature you produced on your serious games or ARG projects (case studies, research etc.) that you used in education, including initialization, development, implementation and results. We would be particularly interested in any Empirical evidence that you noted. I hope my request is not to much of a burden, any help would be greatly appreciated. Many thanks Joel From adam.m.s.martin at googlemail.com Mon Feb 23 11:34:40 2009 From: adam.m.s.martin at googlemail.com (Adam Martin) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 16:34:40 +0000 Subject: [arg_discuss] TOW: Have you ever consulted a lawyer before you did something ARG-related? Message-ID: (Topic of the Week - some open-ended interesting question. Suggestions on a postcard (or just email me) welcome for future topics...) Adam From wendeth at wendydespain.com Mon Feb 23 22:19:52 2009 From: wendeth at wendydespain.com (Wendy Despain) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 19:19:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: [arg_discuss] TOW: Have you ever consulted a lawyer before you did something ARG-related? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <61a9f827cfcd6660bf67dee2b5f297a7.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> Yes, I have consulted a lawyer before doing something ARGish. It was the corporate lawyer for the company I was employed with, so it didn't cost me anything. Of course, he was looking out for the interests of the company, and not my own personal interests, but he pointed out that in this situation everyone knows the company has deeper pockets than I do, and when the lawsuits start flying they target the money. He asked me a lot of probing questions, wanted to know if we had thought about various contingencies, but we were prepared and he didn't ask us to change anything. He did help us with the wording on some of our materials, but other than that he wasn't involved. For the most part, I appreciated his input. Wendy Despain quantumcontent.com On Mon, February 23, 2009 8:34 am, Adam Martin wrote: > (Topic of the Week - some open-ended interesting question. Suggestions > on a postcard (or just email me) welcome for future topics...) > > Adam > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > Wendy Despain quantumcontent.com From bclark at gmdstudios.com Tue Feb 24 09:13:52 2009 From: bclark at gmdstudios.com (Brian Clark) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 09:13:52 -0500 Subject: [arg_discuss] TOW: Have you ever consulted a lawyer before you didsomething ARG-related? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <08FC8D1ECAB94D43AC3DFF1483237E7D@Tricorder> Such a big nebulous question, Adam, but the answer is almost always "yes". In commercial campaigns, I would replace "consulted" with "sparred with" as it takes quite a bit of education to get them to understand the unique situations here (and frequently that battle starts with whether content or advertising law is the appropriate framework for risk evaluation.) In the ad agency tradition, the agency is contractually obligated to deliver ZERO legal risk to their client, so they require the same from their venders -- the uncertain legal framework of ARG-related activities make that a constant challenge. On non-agency work, "consulted" is far more appropriate -- there, the test is more about risk management not risk elimination, so understanding what kinds of claims could be made against you (and how you would defend against them in a way that made you a less attractive target) becomes the key. Did the person who posed that question have anything more specific in mind? -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Adam Martin Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 11:35 AM To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG Subject: [arg_discuss] TOW: Have you ever consulted a lawyer before you didsomething ARG-related? (Topic of the Week - some open-ended interesting question. Suggestions on a postcard (or just email me) welcome for future topics...) Adam _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From mmonello at campfirenyc.com Tue Feb 24 09:58:10 2009 From: mmonello at campfirenyc.com (Mike Monello) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 06:58:10 -0800 Subject: [arg_discuss] TOW: Have you ever consulted a lawyer before you didsomething ARG-related? In-Reply-To: <08FC8D1ECAB94D43AC3DFF1483237E7D@Tricorder> Message-ID: Yes, the question seems very broad. Here's my advice for dealing with a lawyer: If you have any ability to choose the lawyer you consult (probably not if you are doing something for a brand) then go with an entertainment lawyer. Good entertainment lawyers will work to help you accomplish what you want to do while minimizing legal risk as best as possible. Corporate lawyers, on the other hand, are only focused on protecting clients, so they tend to just say "No" to anything that sounds risky or untested, and they generally will not work with you or offer solutions. You need to work with a creative lawyer whose focus is on minimizing risk rather than eliminating all risk. I'm assuming if you are completely risk adverse, then you wouldn't be thinking about doing something ARG related in the first place! Best, Mike On 2/24/09 9:13 AM, "Brian Clark" wrote: Such a big nebulous question, Adam, but the answer is almost always "yes". In commercial campaigns, I would replace "consulted" with "sparred with" as it takes quite a bit of education to get them to understand the unique situations here (and frequently that battle starts with whether content or advertising law is the appropriate framework for risk evaluation.) In the ad agency tradition, the agency is contractually obligated to deliver ZERO legal risk to their client, so they require the same from their venders -- the uncertain legal framework of ARG-related activities make that a constant challenge. On non-agency work, "consulted" is far more appropriate -- there, the test is more about risk management not risk elimination, so understanding what kinds of claims could be made against you (and how you would defend against them in a way that made you a less attractive target) becomes the key. Did the person who posed that question have anything more specific in mind? -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Adam Martin Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 11:35 AM To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG Subject: [arg_discuss] TOW: Have you ever consulted a lawyer before you didsomething ARG-related? (Topic of the Week - some open-ended interesting question. Suggestions on a postcard (or just email me) welcome for future topics...) Adam _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss --- Mike Monello Partner, Campfire 62 White Street, 3E New York, NY 10013 212-612-9600 http://www.campfirenyc.com From evan at mysteryjones.com Tue Feb 24 10:30:25 2009 From: evan at mysteryjones.com (Evan Jones) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 11:30:25 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] TOW: Have you ever consulted a lawyer before you didsomething ARG-related? In-Reply-To: References: <08FC8D1ECAB94D43AC3DFF1483237E7D@Tricorder> Message-ID: <5b5c8e3b0902240730t1480184akd97a4b510fd6867b@mail.gmail.com> Yes, I have had some memorable discussions about legality and risk. :) You do have to look at it from their perspective - the system is built on precedents and when you claim you're doing something literally 'unprecedented' it does make the blood boil with panic. I find it's very important to speak to 'industry best practices' and have tangible examples where this (relatively) new concept has been executed without invoking Armageddon. It's also very important to understand corporate structures early on in this discussion. In some cases the legal team may be one of the owners of the client company, or the system may be structured with the legal team acting as a firewall to external risk and middle management has no recourse. In some cases the company has a legal 'advisor' who can be instructed by a superior to loosen the standard risk reduction in exchange for something daring. If your project is planning to push the envelope at all, then there are two options - the great ideas you've got are acceptable or they're unacceptable (from a legal point of view). I find it's worth including a partner's counsel early on while scoping the project, so that we see these issues early on. Evan On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 10:58 AM, Mike Monello wrote: > Yes, the question seems very broad. Here's my advice for dealing with a > lawyer: > > If you have any ability to choose the lawyer you consult (probably not if > you are doing something for a brand) then go with an entertainment lawyer. > Good entertainment lawyers will work to help you accomplish what you want to > do while minimizing legal risk as best as possible. Corporate lawyers, on > the other hand, are only focused on protecting clients, so they tend to just > say "No" to anything that sounds risky or untested, and they generally will > not work with you or offer solutions. > > You need to work with a creative lawyer whose focus is on minimizing risk > rather than eliminating all risk. I'm assuming if you are completely risk > adverse, then you wouldn't be thinking about doing something ARG related in > the first place! > > Best, > > Mike > > > On 2/24/09 9:13 AM, "Brian Clark" wrote: > > Such a big nebulous question, Adam, but the answer is almost always "yes". > In commercial campaigns, I would replace "consulted" with "sparred with" as > it takes quite a bit of education to get them to understand the unique > situations here (and frequently that battle starts with whether content or > advertising law is the appropriate framework for risk evaluation.) In the > ad > agency tradition, the agency is contractually obligated to deliver ZERO > legal risk to their client, so they require the same from their venders -- > the uncertain legal framework of ARG-related activities make that a > constant > challenge. > > On non-agency work, "consulted" is far more appropriate -- there, the test > is more about risk management not risk elimination, so understanding what > kinds of claims could be made against you (and how you would defend against > them in a way that made you a less attractive target) becomes the key. > > Did the person who posed that question have anything more specific in mind? > > -----Original Message----- > From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] > On > Behalf Of Adam Martin > Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 11:35 AM > To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG > Subject: [arg_discuss] TOW: Have you ever consulted a lawyer before you > didsomething ARG-related? > > (Topic of the Week - some open-ended interesting question. Suggestions > on a postcard (or just email me) welcome for future topics...) > > Adam > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > > > --- > Mike Monello > Partner, Campfire > 62 White Street, 3E > New York, NY 10013 > 212-612-9600 > http://www.campfirenyc.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > From Markus.Montola at uta.fi Tue Feb 24 16:29:35 2009 From: Markus.Montola at uta.fi (Markus Montola) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 23:29:35 +0200 Subject: [arg_discuss] TOW: Have you ever consulted a lawyer before you didsomething ARG-related? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090224232935.107821216azb1hog@imp2.uta.fi> As a follow-up to Adam's question, has anyone ever gotten into legal trouble with an ARG element that was not physically staged somewhere? For emails, television features, websites, video clips or stuff like that? To me it would appear that the physical installations are where the most legal risks are, unfortunately. If you keep libel, slander and naked flesh out, it's unlikely to get sued over something that happens in the Internet. Correct me if I'm wrong. (Let's assume that credible legal threats done through lawyers is where "legal trouble" starts. :-) - M > Yes, the question seems very broad. Here's my advice for dealing > with a lawyer: > > If you have any ability to choose the lawyer you consult (probably > not if you are doing something for a brand) then go with an > entertainment lawyer. Good entertainment lawyers will work to help > you accomplish what you want to do while minimizing legal risk as > best as possible. Corporate lawyers, on the other hand, are only > focused on protecting clients, so they tend to just say "No" to > anything that sounds risky or untested, and they generally will not > work with you or offer solutions. > > You need to work with a creative lawyer whose focus is on minimizing > risk rather than eliminating all risk. I'm assuming if you are > completely risk adverse, then you wouldn't be thinking about doing > something ARG related in the first place! > > Best, > > Mike > > > On 2/24/09 9:13 AM, "Brian Clark" wrote: > > Such a big nebulous question, Adam, but the answer is almost always "yes". > In commercial campaigns, I would replace "consulted" with "sparred with" as > it takes quite a bit of education to get them to understand the unique > situations here (and frequently that battle starts with whether content or > advertising law is the appropriate framework for risk evaluation.) In the ad > agency tradition, the agency is contractually obligated to deliver ZERO > legal risk to their client, so they require the same from their venders -- > the uncertain legal framework of ARG-related activities make that a constant > challenge. > > On non-agency work, "consulted" is far more appropriate -- there, the test > is more about risk management not risk elimination, so understanding what > kinds of claims could be made against you (and how you would defend against > them in a way that made you a less attractive target) becomes the key. > > Did the person who posed that question have anything more specific in mind? > > -----Original Message----- > From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On > Behalf Of Adam Martin > Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 11:35 AM > To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG > Subject: [arg_discuss] TOW: Have you ever consulted a lawyer before you > didsomething ARG-related? > > (Topic of the Week - some open-ended interesting question. Suggestions > on a postcard (or just email me) welcome for future topics...) > > Adam > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > > > --- > Mike Monello > Partner, Campfire > 62 White Street, 3E > New York, NY 10013 > 212-612-9600 > http://www.campfirenyc.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > - Markus From mmonello at campfirenyc.com Tue Feb 24 16:45:49 2009 From: mmonello at campfirenyc.com (Mike Monello) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 13:45:49 -0800 Subject: [arg_discuss] TOW: Have you ever consulted a lawyer before you didsomething ARG-related? In-Reply-To: <20090224232935.107821216azb1hog@imp2.uta.fi> Message-ID: I've never gotten into legal trouble, but lawyers I've worked with have been less worried about physical events and more concerned with things like clearing the names of characters (especially bad guys), clearing the use of names and locations that you use (in text, or images, not just as locations), and basically how you mention or use any product/name/location that does not belong to the client. For example, on Audi, we were not allowed to refer to "The Police" "Cops" "FBI" "Interpol" or any other official branch. That's why the characters always used the generic term "the authorities." Yes, it gets that stupid sometimes! If you do live events, they will demand protections through your liability insurance and once they have that they don't care about physical events. -Mike On 2/24/09 4:29 PM, "Markus Montola" wrote: As a follow-up to Adam's question, has anyone ever gotten into legal trouble with an ARG element that was not physically staged somewhere? For emails, television features, websites, video clips or stuff like that? To me it would appear that the physical installations are where the most legal risks are, unfortunately. If you keep libel, slander and naked flesh out, it's unlikely to get sued over something that happens in the Internet. Correct me if I'm wrong. (Let's assume that credible legal threats done through lawyers is where "legal trouble" starts. :-) - M > Yes, the question seems very broad. Here's my advice for dealing > with a lawyer: > > If you have any ability to choose the lawyer you consult (probably > not if you are doing something for a brand) then go with an > entertainment lawyer. Good entertainment lawyers will work to help > you accomplish what you want to do while minimizing legal risk as > best as possible. Corporate lawyers, on the other hand, are only > focused on protecting clients, so they tend to just say "No" to > anything that sounds risky or untested, and they generally will not > work with you or offer solutions. > > You need to work with a creative lawyer whose focus is on minimizing > risk rather than eliminating all risk. I'm assuming if you are > completely risk adverse, then you wouldn't be thinking about doing > something ARG related in the first place! > > Best, > > Mike > > > On 2/24/09 9:13 AM, "Brian Clark" wrote: > > Such a big nebulous question, Adam, but the answer is almost always "yes". > In commercial campaigns, I would replace "consulted" with "sparred with" as > it takes quite a bit of education to get them to understand the unique > situations here (and frequently that battle starts with whether content or > advertising law is the appropriate framework for risk evaluation.) In the ad > agency tradition, the agency is contractually obligated to deliver ZERO > legal risk to their client, so they require the same from their venders -- > the uncertain legal framework of ARG-related activities make that a constant > challenge. > > On non-agency work, "consulted" is far more appropriate -- there, the test > is more about risk management not risk elimination, so understanding what > kinds of claims could be made against you (and how you would defend against > them in a way that made you a less attractive target) becomes the key. > > Did the person who posed that question have anything more specific in mind? > > -----Original Message----- > From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On > Behalf Of Adam Martin > Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 11:35 AM > To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG > Subject: [arg_discuss] TOW: Have you ever consulted a lawyer before you > didsomething ARG-related? > > (Topic of the Week - some open-ended interesting question. Suggestions > on a postcard (or just email me) welcome for future topics...) > > Adam > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > > > --- > Mike Monello > Partner, Campfire > 62 White Street, 3E > New York, NY 10013 > 212-612-9600 > http://www.campfirenyc.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > - Markus _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss --- Mike Monello Partner, Campfire 62 White Street, 3E New York, NY 10013 212-612-9600 http://www.campfirenyc.com From bclark at gmdstudios.com Tue Feb 24 16:48:42 2009 From: bclark at gmdstudios.com (Brian Clark) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 16:48:42 -0500 Subject: [arg_discuss] TOW: Have you ever consulted a lawyer before you didsomething ARG-related? In-Reply-To: <20090224232935.107821216azb1hog@imp2.uta.fi> References: <20090224232935.107821216azb1hog@imp2.uta.fi> Message-ID: Most of the legal entanglements we've had have actually been on non-physical stagings. A couple of examples from the extended reality for the film "Nothing So Strange" (www.nothingsostrange.com) which purposefully worked the controversy angle: 1) The "villain" of the story was Gil Garcetti, who truly was the District Attorney of Los Angeles. One of the websites in the campaign was "his investigation" into the assassination of Bill Gates (www.garcettireport.org) which was originally delivered in template that included links to other parts of the real DA website in a navigation bar similar to their site at the time. They called and were unhappy, saying we were "jeopardizing their credibility and ability to secure convictions" -- our counter argument was, "No, our film is about how your office's misconduct has eroded trust in your department." We agreed to cease and desist in the design elements but not the content, and they never pressed the issue further (most likely because we had a strong position to claim "satire" and Garcetti was a public elected political figure.) 2) More challenging, we had a page that looked like archive of CNN's coverage of the Gates assassination hours after it happened in a completely realistic skin of their design, but housed on a totally different site. Again, it was both clearly parody of CNN's "breaking news" coverage when they had no facts, and also clearly presented as "something that happened two years ago." A fan, however, made a copy of it, republished it elsewhere, changed the date on the page to a Javascript that made it published "today" (whenever today was) and many newscasts in Asia began reporting it as real news and Microsoft's stock had to be suspended in trading (see http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/2916135.stm for BBC's coverage). That generated a call from the Secret Service, who speculated that it might be a currency devaluation scam: Special Agent Anonymous had a hard time figuring out where reality actually picked up and began again, but no action was taken. I imagine I got a "most harmless" entry in my security file. Point being, two areas of impact legally are always going to be "unhappy people colored badly" (even if fair use protects you) and the activities of fan media creation (that you don't have direct control over) and those are far more likely to happen online than in the real world. -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Markus Montola Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 4:30 PM To: arg_discuss at igda.org Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] TOW: Have you ever consulted a lawyer before you didsomething ARG-related? As a follow-up to Adam's question, has anyone ever gotten into legal trouble with an ARG element that was not physically staged somewhere? For emails, television features, websites, video clips or stuff like that? To me it would appear that the physical installations are where the most legal risks are, unfortunately. If you keep libel, slander and naked flesh out, it's unlikely to get sued over something that happens in the Internet. Correct me if I'm wrong. (Let's assume that credible legal threats done through lawyers is where "legal trouble" starts. :-) - M > Yes, the question seems very broad. Here's my advice for dealing > with a lawyer: > > If you have any ability to choose the lawyer you consult (probably > not if you are doing something for a brand) then go with an > entertainment lawyer. Good entertainment lawyers will work to help > you accomplish what you want to do while minimizing legal risk as > best as possible. Corporate lawyers, on the other hand, are only > focused on protecting clients, so they tend to just say "No" to > anything that sounds risky or untested, and they generally will not > work with you or offer solutions. > > You need to work with a creative lawyer whose focus is on minimizing > risk rather than eliminating all risk. I'm assuming if you are > completely risk adverse, then you wouldn't be thinking about doing > something ARG related in the first place! > > Best, > > Mike > > > On 2/24/09 9:13 AM, "Brian Clark" wrote: > > Such a big nebulous question, Adam, but the answer is almost always "yes". > In commercial campaigns, I would replace "consulted" with "sparred with" as > it takes quite a bit of education to get them to understand the unique > situations here (and frequently that battle starts with whether content or > advertising law is the appropriate framework for risk evaluation.) In the ad > agency tradition, the agency is contractually obligated to deliver ZERO > legal risk to their client, so they require the same from their venders -- > the uncertain legal framework of ARG-related activities make that a constant > challenge. > > On non-agency work, "consulted" is far more appropriate -- there, the test > is more about risk management not risk elimination, so understanding what > kinds of claims could be made against you (and how you would defend against > them in a way that made you a less attractive target) becomes the key. > > Did the person who posed that question have anything more specific in mind? > > -----Original Message----- > From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On > Behalf Of Adam Martin > Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 11:35 AM > To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG > Subject: [arg_discuss] TOW: Have you ever consulted a lawyer before you > didsomething ARG-related? > > (Topic of the Week - some open-ended interesting question. Suggestions > on a postcard (or just email me) welcome for future topics...) > > Adam > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > > > --- > Mike Monello > Partner, Campfire > 62 White Street, 3E > New York, NY 10013 > 212-612-9600 > http://www.campfirenyc.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > - Markus _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From bclark at gmdstudios.com Tue Feb 24 16:51:31 2009 From: bclark at gmdstudios.com (Brian Clark) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 16:51:31 -0500 Subject: [arg_discuss] TOW: Have you ever consulted a lawyer before you didsomething ARG-related? In-Reply-To: References: <20090224232935.107821216azb1hog@imp2.uta.fi> Message-ID: >For example, on Audi, we were not allowed to refer to "The Police" >"Cops" "FBI" "Interpol" or any other official branch. That's why >the characters always used the generic term "the authorities." Yes, >it gets that stupid sometimes! Equally hilarious: we had a production assistant securing release forms from real businesses in NYC so that characters could talk about at least an area of the real world in simple blog references! Audi and their agency insisted on evaluating all of this under advertising law, which means no passing references to ANYTHING that is trademarked :) Thus Mike's advice to get an ENTERTAINMENT attorney instead of a corporate or advertising attorney, and on advertising ARGs try to make fighting that battle (which form of law applies) one of your first "legal conversations" with the agency or client. Brian From mmonello at campfirenyc.com Tue Feb 24 16:55:30 2009 From: mmonello at campfirenyc.com (Mike Monello) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 13:55:30 -0800 Subject: [arg_discuss] TOW: Have you ever consulted a lawyer before you didsomething ARG-related? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Also, entertainment oriented clients (like HBO, Warner Brothers, etc) are WAY more lenient in these regards than brand clients like Audi or Verizon, as their corporate cultures are so different. Mike On 2/24/09 4:51 PM, "Brian Clark" wrote: >For example, on Audi, we were not allowed to refer to "The Police" >"Cops" "FBI" "Interpol" or any other official branch. That's why >the characters always used the generic term "the authorities." Yes, >it gets that stupid sometimes! Equally hilarious: we had a production assistant securing release forms from real businesses in NYC so that characters could talk about at least an area of the real world in simple blog references! Audi and their agency insisted on evaluating all of this under advertising law, which means no passing references to ANYTHING that is trademarked :) Thus Mike's advice to get an ENTERTAINMENT attorney instead of a corporate or advertising attorney, and on advertising ARGs try to make fighting that battle (which form of law applies) one of your first "legal conversations" with the agency or client. Brian _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss --- Mike Monello Partner, Campfire 62 White Street, 3E New York, NY 10013 212-612-9600 http://www.campfirenyc.com From adam.m.s.martin at googlemail.com Tue Feb 24 17:00:05 2009 From: adam.m.s.martin at googlemail.com (Adam Martin) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 22:00:05 +0000 Subject: [arg_discuss] TOW: Have you ever consulted a lawyer before you didsomething ARG-related? In-Reply-To: <20090224232935.107821216azb1hog@imp2.uta.fi> References: <20090224232935.107821216azb1hog@imp2.uta.fi> Message-ID: For Perplex City, we played it a *lot* more cavalier than most teams, I think. e.g. I remember several people having kittens (me included, I think) over Adrian's initial plan to buzz a mob of unsuspecting players ... with a helicopter. In central London. And then my mild panic - we were in the copter, flying to the event - when I realised no-one had told the pilot anything, and he was about to get mobbed by 20+ players. Of course, it all worked out beautifully in the end, and made for an awesome and truly memorable event ("WTF?!! Mind Candy just kidnapped one of the players? In a helicopter?!?"). But it was hard to tell - the Microsoft team claimed to have had little or no awareness from the legal team when doing The Beast (at least, that interpretation was picked up and much-quoted throughout the community for a long time). I was never sure if everyone else was actually *doing* that though, or whether it was just us :). So, I think it's pretty interesting to get a sampling of the range of approaches that different teams have taken, for good or ill. Wasn't my idea for a question, though - you'd have to ask Andrea about that :). >> On 2/24/09 9:13 AM, "Brian Clark" wrote: >> >> Such a big nebulous question, Adam, but the answer is almost always "yes". >> ... >> Did the person who posed that question have anything more specific in >> mind? >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] >> On >> Behalf Of Adam Martin >> Sent: Monday, February 23, 2009 11:35 AM >> To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG >> Subject: [arg_discuss] TOW: Have you ever consulted a lawyer before you >> didsomething ARG-related? >> >> (Topic of the Week - some open-ended interesting question. Suggestions >> on a postcard (or just email me) welcome for future topics...) >> >> Adam From bclark at gmdstudios.com Tue Feb 24 17:10:31 2009 From: bclark at gmdstudios.com (Brian Clark) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 17:10:31 -0500 Subject: [arg_discuss] TOW: Have you ever consulted a lawyer before youdidsomething ARG-related? In-Reply-To: References: <20090224232935.107821216azb1hog@imp2.uta.fi> Message-ID: >For Perplex City, we played it a *lot* more cavalier than most >teams, I think. Well, the question wasn't "what did we get away with without consulting lawyers" :) From mmonello at campfirenyc.com Tue Feb 24 17:16:57 2009 From: mmonello at campfirenyc.com (Mike Monello) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 14:16:57 -0800 Subject: [arg_discuss] TOW: Have you ever consulted a lawyer before youdidsomething ARG-related? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I plead the 5th on that one! On 2/24/09 5:10 PM, "Brian Clark" wrote: >For Perplex City, we played it a *lot* more cavalier than most >teams, I think. Well, the question wasn't "what did we get away with without consulting lawyers" :) _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss --- Mike Monello Partner, Campfire 62 White Street, 3E New York, NY 10013 212-612-9600 http://www.campfirenyc.com From deusexmachinatio at gmail.com Tue Feb 24 20:04:28 2009 From: deusexmachinatio at gmail.com (Andrea Phillips) Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 20:04:28 -0500 Subject: [arg_discuss] TOW: Have you ever consulted a lawyer before youdidsomething ARG-related? In-Reply-To: References: <20090224232935.107821216azb1hog@imp2.uta.fi> Message-ID: <5c799fd60902241704v2ad4f875lb4ccf59301322d09@mail.gmail.com> The question was mine, and the reason I ask is because I've been involved in incredibly cavalier (see Adam's helicopter story) to very serious compliance processes. I was curious to find precisely what degree of CYA is the norm among us in the forward planning stages, and it looks like the answer is: *Quite A Lot.* Thanks :) On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 5:10 PM, Brian Clark wrote: >>For Perplex City, we played it a *lot* more cavalier than most >>teams, I think. > > Well, the question wasn't "what did we get away with without consulting > lawyers" :) > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > -- Andrea Phillips http://www.deusexmachinatio.com Words * Culture * Interaction From sjoerdwennekes at hotmail.com Wed Feb 25 04:42:58 2009 From: sjoerdwennekes at hotmail.com (Sjoerd Wennekes) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 10:42:58 +0100 Subject: [arg_discuss] TOW: Have you ever consulted a lawyer before you did something ARG-related? In-Reply-To: <61a9f827cfcd6660bf67dee2b5f297a7.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> References: <61a9f827cfcd6660bf67dee2b5f297a7.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> Message-ID: Yes, I did! Well, it wasn't really a lawyer. But I asked permission for a flash mob. With a lot of people (and I mean a lot!) we were celebrating the coming of spring with a chalking-fest! ;-) This took place at a big town-square in the city of Utrecht (the Netherlands) Because this chalking-frenzy was part of my graduation, I had to ask permission from the local authority. (School didn't want to get in some kind of trouble) Of course they agreed, it just chalking! > Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 19:19:52 -0800 > From: wendeth at wendydespain.com > To: arg_discuss at igda.org > Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] TOW: Have you ever consulted a lawyer before you did something ARG-related? > > Yes, I have consulted a lawyer before doing something ARGish. It was > the corporate lawyer for the company I was employed with, so it didn't > cost me anything. > > Of course, he was looking out for the interests of the company, and > not my own personal interests, but he pointed out that in this > situation everyone knows the company has deeper pockets than I do, and > when the lawsuits start flying they target the money. > > He asked me a lot of probing questions, wanted to know if we had > thought about various contingencies, but we were prepared and he > didn't ask us to change anything. > > He did help us with the wording on some of our materials, but other > than that he wasn't involved. For the most part, I appreciated his > input. > > Wendy Despain > quantumcontent.com > > > > On Mon, February 23, 2009 8:34 am, Adam Martin wrote: > > (Topic of the Week - some open-ended interesting question. Suggestions > > on a postcard (or just email me) welcome for future topics...) > > > > Adam > > _______________________________________________ > > ARG_Discuss mailing list > > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > > > > Wendy Despain > quantumcontent.com > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From luizadolfoandrade at yahoo.com.br Wed Feb 25 07:29:59 2009 From: luizadolfoandrade at yahoo.com.br (Luiz Adolfo Andrade) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 04:29:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [arg_discuss] TOW: Have you ever consulted a lawyer before you did something ARG-related? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <702131.68668.qm@web110706.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Its a very interesting question! When I did my first ARG - Compulsive Obsession - I created a pharmacy called "Phyto Pharma Brasil" . It was administered by bandits and traffickers of human organs. I consulted the Brazilian Institut of Patents (INPI) and I asked permission to use the name Phyto Pharma Brasil - it was avaible. I made the register and 3 months later a man called me to say he was the Phyto Pharma Brasil owner.? He required me to take off the pharmacy from my ARG . Of course I did not this because I konw the name was avaible. I think this man was an opportunistic one. In this case I had to consult lawyers to learn how to register the name in INPI before starting my ARG. [ ]s Luiz Adolfo de Andrade? --- Em qua, 25/2/09, Sjoerd Wennekes escreveu: De: Sjoerd Wennekes Assunto: Re: [arg_discuss] TOW: Have you eEscrever e-mail - Yahoo! Mailver consulted a lawyer before you did something ARG-related? Para: arg_discuss at igda.org Data: Quarta-feira, 25 de Fevereiro de 2009, 6:42 Yes, I did! Well, it wasn't really a lawyer. But I asked permission for a flash mob. With a lot of people (and I mean a lot!) we were celebrating the coming of spring with a chalking-fest! ;-) This took place at a big town-square in the city of Utrecht (the Netherlands) Because this chalking-frenzy was part of my graduation, I had to ask permission from the local authority. (School didn't want to get in some kind of trouble) Of course they agreed, it just chalking! > Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 19:19:52 -0800 > From: wendeth at wendydespain.com > To: arg_discuss at igda.org > Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] TOW: Have you ever consulted a lawyer before you did something ARG-related? > > Yes, I have consulted a lawyer before doing something ARGish. It was > the corporate lawyer for the company I was employed with, so it didn't > cost me anything. > > Of course, he was looking out for the interests of the company, and > not my own personal interests, but he pointed out that in this > situation everyone knows the company has deeper pockets than I do, and > when the lawsuits start flying they target the money. > > He asked me a lot of probing questions, wanted to know if we had > thought about various contingencies, but we were prepared and he > didn't ask us to change anything. > > He did help us with the wording on some of our materials, but other > than that he wasn't involved. For the most part, I appreciated his > input. > > Wendy Despain > quantumcontent.com > > > > On Mon, February 23, 2009 8:34 am, Adam Martin wrote: > > (Topic of the Week - some open-ended interesting question. Suggestions > > on a postcard (or just email me) welcome for future topics...) > > > > Adam > > _______________________________________________ > > ARG_Discuss mailing list > > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > > > > Wendy Despain > quantumcontent.com > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss Veja quais s?o os assuntos do momento no Yahoo! +Buscados http://br.maisbuscados.yahoo.com From dflor71 at gmail.com Wed Feb 25 12:51:27 2009 From: dflor71 at gmail.com (David Flor) Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 12:51:27 -0500 Subject: [arg_discuss] TOW: Have you ever consulted a lawyer before you did something ARG-related? In-Reply-To: References: <61a9f827cfcd6660bf67dee2b5f297a7.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> Message-ID: <50b4b0580902250951g2cc9bd76n8d93c6480bf7ffd9@mail.gmail.com> Only time I've asked an attorney is when it related to a Non-Disclosure Agreement with the client, which was no different than when I did that as a contracted software developer. Of course, it helps to have a lawyer that's FAMILY, but still... :) Tnx & Rgds... David Flor Darklight Interactive - http://www.dlimedia.com/ "Omne ignotum pro magnifico"