From langdell at gmail.com Wed Apr 1 21:15:49 2009 From: langdell at gmail.com (Tim Langdell) Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 18:15:49 -0700 Subject: [arg_discuss] New IGDA Programmers SIG References: <20090331015648.IERS5821.nschwotgx03p.mx.bigpond.com@HPPIE> Message-ID: <02f501c9b330$8f1ffc50$0201a8c0@PC> Just to let everyone know we have a new IGDA SIG list for programmers and anyone interested in issues relating to coding, the plight of coders in the industry, etc. Visit here to sign up: http://eight.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/coders Posts to the List are then done using coders at igda.org Welcome in advance to anyone interested in joining us! Tim Langdell IGDA Board Member CEO, EDGE Games From marcus.helm at gmail.com Fri Apr 3 00:07:05 2009 From: marcus.helm at gmail.com (Hugh Davies) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 14:07:05 +1000 Subject: [arg_discuss] ARGs Around the World data In-Reply-To: <20090331015648.IERS5821.nschwotgx03p.mx.bigpond.com@HPPIE> References: <20090331015648.IERS5821.nschwotgx03p.mx.bigpond.com@HPPIE> Message-ID: <4ca6fcda0904022107r41740e26o312017a231d448bc@mail.gmail.com> Hi all As mentioned earlier this week, I have begun compiling spreadsheet of ARG's towards getting a listing of the all the brands that have worked with ARGs as well as a listing of independent ARG's for ARGology. Its attached here as an Excel spreadsheet and is very much in the draft stage. I urge one and all to cast an eye over it, correct mistakes and fill any missing info including the many games that I appologise for not including already. Im also open to persuasion about what constituties and ARG as there are likely to be some contentious inclusions. Currently, I?m happy to compile corrections manually but ultimately it should live in a wiki so we can all access and edit it. Cheers Hugh On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 11:56 AM, Christy Dena < cdena at cross-mediaentertainment.com> wrote: > Hello everyone! > > > > Wohoo! > > > > To compliment my ARG Stats, I?ve finally released data on ARGs Around the > World (non-English-language ARGs etc). > > > > http://www.christydena.com/2009/03/released-args-around-the-world-data/ > > > > As I say in one of the pages ? a big thank you to Andr? Sirangelo (Brazil), > Annika Waern (Sweden), ?rica Benites Manssour (Brazil), Genevi?ve Cardin > (Canada) and Patrick M?ller (Germany) for being so generous with their time > and information! > > > > Please, feel free to email me with any corrections and additions! > > > > Enjoy! > > > > Best, > > Christy > > > > Cross-Media Specialist > > School of Letters, Art and Media, University of Sydney > > More info @ www.christydena.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > From brooke at mirlandano.com Fri Apr 3 00:27:12 2009 From: brooke at mirlandano.com (Brooke Thompson) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 00:27:12 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] ARGs Around the World data In-Reply-To: <4ca6fcda0904022107r41740e26o312017a231d448bc@mail.gmail.com> References: <20090331015648.IERS5821.nschwotgx03p.mx.bigpond.com@HPPIE> <4ca6fcda0904022107r41740e26o312017a231d448bc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <844924DF-153C-4D72-97A1-DDD768659A14@mirlandano.com> I might be the harshest critic on the what is and is not an ARG, so you might not actually want me looking at it - but I'd love to take a peek and may have something(s) to add to it. Unfortunately, it looks like the list will strip attachments (a good thing, really). Perhaps you could put it up as a google docs spreadsheet. If you're not familiar with google docs, you can send it my way and I can put it up. As a bonus, once it's up there, others can poke at it directly. Brooke On Apr 3, 2009, at 12:07 AM, Hugh Davies wrote: > Hi all > > As mentioned earlier this week, I have begun compiling spreadsheet > of ARG's > towards getting a listing of the all the brands that have worked > with ARGs > as well as a listing of independent ARG's for ARGology. > Its attached here as an Excel spreadsheet and is very much in the > draft > stage. > > > I urge one and all to cast an eye over it, correct mistakes and fill > any > missing info including the many games that I appologise for not > including > already. Im also open to persuasion about what constituties and ARG > as there > are likely to be some contentious inclusions. > > > Currently, I?m happy to compile corrections manually but ultimately it > should live in a wiki so we can all access and edit it. > > Cheers > Hugh > > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 11:56 AM, Christy Dena < > cdena at cross-mediaentertainment.com> wrote: > >> Hello everyone! >> >> >> >> Wohoo! >> >> >> >> To compliment my ARG Stats, I?ve finally released data on ARGs >> Around the >> World (non-English-language ARGs etc). >> >> >> >> http://www.christydena.com/2009/03/released-args-around-the-world-data/ >> >> >> >> As I say in one of the pages ? a big thank you to Andr? Sirangelo >> (Brazil), >> Annika Waern (Sweden), ?rica Benites Manssour (Brazil), Genevi?ve >> Cardin >> (Canada) and Patrick M?ller (Germany) for being so generous with >> their time >> and information! >> >> >> >> Please, feel free to email me with any corrections and additions! >> >> >> >> Enjoy! >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Christy >> >> >> >> Cross-Media Specialist >> >> School of Letters, Art and Media, University of Sydney >> >> More info @ www.christydena.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >> > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From marcus.helm at gmail.com Fri Apr 3 06:04:17 2009 From: marcus.helm at gmail.com (marcus.helm at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 10:04:17 +0000 Subject: [arg_discuss] arg list Message-ID: <0016e643486aee9ec30466a3ab8a@google.com> I've shared a document with you called "arg list": http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pE0znztln2kmQruQyplrzeA&inv=arg_discuss at igda.org It's not an attachment -- it's stored online at Google Docs. To open this document, just click the link above. As mentioned earlier this week, I have begun compiling spreadsheet of ARG's towards getting a listing of the all the brands that have worked with ARGs as well as a listing of independent ARG's for ARGology. Its attached here as an Excel spreadsheet and is very much in the draft stage. I urge one and all to cast an eye over it, correct mistakes and fill any missing info including the many games that I appologise for not including already. Im also open to persuasion about what constituties and ARG as there are likely to be some contentious inclusions. From antoha.zaitsev at gmail.com Fri Apr 3 06:06:42 2009 From: antoha.zaitsev at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?0JDQvdGC0L7QvSDQl9Cw0LnRhtC10LI=?=) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 14:06:42 +0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] arg list In-Reply-To: <0016e643486aee9ec30466a3ab8a@google.com> References: <0016e643486aee9ec30466a3ab8a@google.com> Message-ID: That's awesome. There will be links, will they? 2009/4/3 > I've shared a document with you called "arg list": > > http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pE0znztln2kmQruQyplrzeA&inv=arg_discuss at igda.org > > It's not an attachment -- it's stored online at Google Docs. To open this > document, just click the link above. > > As mentioned earlier this week, I have begun compiling spreadsheet of > ARG's towards getting a listing of the all the brands that have worked > with ARGs as well as a listing of independent ARG's for ARGology. > Its attached here as an Excel spreadsheet and is very much in the draft > stage. > > > I urge one and all to cast an eye over it, correct mistakes and fill > any missing info including the many games that I appologise for not > including already. Im also open to persuasion about what constituties > and ARG as there are likely to be some contentious inclusions. > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > -- ????? ?????? | www.virtuzor.ru ????????? ?????? ? ????? ????????? ? ???????????. From marcus.helm at gmail.com Fri Apr 3 06:06:46 2009 From: marcus.helm at gmail.com (Hugh Davies) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 20:06:46 +1000 Subject: [arg_discuss] ARGs Around the World data In-Reply-To: <844924DF-153C-4D72-97A1-DDD768659A14@mirlandano.com> References: <20090331015648.IERS5821.nschwotgx03p.mx.bigpond.com@HPPIE> <4ca6fcda0904022107r41740e26o312017a231d448bc@mail.gmail.com> <844924DF-153C-4D72-97A1-DDD768659A14@mirlandano.com> Message-ID: <4ca6fcda0904030306j71348fe0nb6a9bf5eaca862f3@mail.gmail.com> Thanks for the heads up Brooke Its up as a directly pokeable google doc spreadsheet now. Do your best/ worst cheers hugh On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 2:27 PM, Brooke Thompson wrote: > I might be the harshest critic on the what is and is not an ARG, so you > might not actually want me looking at it - but I'd love to take a peek and > may have something(s) to add to it. Unfortunately, it looks like the list > will strip attachments (a good thing, really). Perhaps you could put it up > as a google docs spreadsheet. If you're not familiar with google docs, you > can send it my way and I can put it up. As a bonus, once it's up there, > others can poke at it directly. > > Brooke > > > > > > On Apr 3, 2009, at 12:07 AM, Hugh Davies wrote: > > Hi all >> >> As mentioned earlier this week, I have begun compiling spreadsheet of >> ARG's >> towards getting a listing of the all the brands that have worked with ARGs >> as well as a listing of independent ARG's for ARGology. >> Its attached here as an Excel spreadsheet and is very much in the draft >> stage. >> >> >> I urge one and all to cast an eye over it, correct mistakes and fill any >> missing info including the many games that I appologise for not including >> already. Im also open to persuasion about what constituties and ARG as >> there >> are likely to be some contentious inclusions. >> >> >> Currently, I?m happy to compile corrections manually but ultimately it >> should live in a wiki so we can all access and edit it. >> >> Cheers >> Hugh >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Mar 31, 2009 at 11:56 AM, Christy Dena < >> cdena at cross-mediaentertainment.com> wrote: >> >> Hello everyone! >>> >>> >>> >>> Wohoo! >>> >>> >>> >>> To compliment my ARG Stats, I?ve finally released data on ARGs Around the >>> World (non-English-language ARGs etc). >>> >>> >>> >>> http://www.christydena.com/2009/03/released-args-around-the-world-data/ >>> >>> >>> >>> As I say in one of the pages ? a big thank you to Andr? Sirangelo >>> (Brazil), >>> Annika Waern (Sweden), ?rica Benites Manssour (Brazil), Genevi?ve Cardin >>> (Canada) and Patrick M?ller (Germany) for being so generous with their >>> time >>> and information! >>> >>> >>> >>> Please, feel free to email me with any corrections and additions! >>> >>> >>> >>> Enjoy! >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Christy >>> >>> >>> >>> Cross-Media Specialist >>> >>> School of Letters, Art and Media, University of Sydney >>> >>> More info @ www.christydena.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ARG_Discuss mailing list >>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >> > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > From marcus.helm at gmail.com Fri Apr 3 06:08:25 2009 From: marcus.helm at gmail.com (Hugh Davies) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 20:08:25 +1000 Subject: [arg_discuss] arg list In-Reply-To: References: <0016e643486aee9ec30466a3ab8a@google.com> Message-ID: <4ca6fcda0904030308s38fc644dif49f41eeaf8e79d9@mail.gmail.com> Sure - why not. On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 8:06 PM, ????? ?????? wrote: > That's awesome. There will be links, will they? > > 2009/4/3 > > > I've shared a document with you called "arg list": > > > > > http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pE0znztln2kmQruQyplrzeA&inv=arg_discuss at igda.org > > > > It's not an attachment -- it's stored online at Google Docs. To open this > > document, just click the link above. > > > > As mentioned earlier this week, I have begun compiling spreadsheet of > > ARG's towards getting a listing of the all the brands that have worked > > with ARGs as well as a listing of independent ARG's for ARGology. > > Its attached here as an Excel spreadsheet and is very much in the draft > > stage. > > > > > > I urge one and all to cast an eye over it, correct mistakes and fill > > any missing info including the many games that I appologise for not > > including already. Im also open to persuasion about what constituties > > and ARG as there are likely to be some contentious inclusions. > > _______________________________________________ > > ARG_Discuss mailing list > > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > > > > > -- > ????? ?????? | www.virtuzor.ru > ????????? ?????? ? ????? ????????? ? ???????????. > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > From dflor71 at gmail.com Fri Apr 3 11:54:04 2009 From: dflor71 at gmail.com (David Flor) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 11:54:04 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] arg list In-Reply-To: <0016e643486aee9ec30466a3ab8a@google.com> References: <0016e643486aee9ec30466a3ab8a@google.com> Message-ID: <50b4b0580904030854w148f19c6s16a7dafd222bd636@mail.gmail.com> Added the ones I was involved with or are directly familiar with (White Island, for example), as well as went through and edited some that I was very familiar with as a player. I don't know, and it's probably a matter of semantics, whether you want to distinguish "ARG" from "ARE". The Lost Experience was self-labeled as an "ARE", and one could argue "games" like Cloverfield were AREs as well. And do you want to list ARGs that have been announced but not launched yet, such as our own "Rachel's Walk"? Tnx & Rgds... David Flor Darklight Interactive "Omne ignotum pro magnifico" On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 6:04 AM, wrote: > I've shared a document with you called "arg list": > http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pE0znztln2kmQruQyplrzeA&inv=arg_discuss at igda.org > > It's not an attachment -- it's stored online at Google Docs. To open this > document, just click the link above. > > As mentioned earlier this week, I have begun compiling spreadsheet of > ARG's towards getting a listing of the all the brands that have worked > with ARGs as well as a listing of independent ARG's for ARGology. > Its attached here as an Excel spreadsheet and is very much in the draft > stage. > > > I urge one and all to cast an eye over it, correct mistakes and fill > any missing info including the many games that I appologise for not > including already. Im also open to persuasion about what constituties > and ARG as there are likely to be some contentious inclusions. > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > From bclark at gmdstudios.com Fri Apr 3 12:03:48 2009 From: bclark at gmdstudios.com (Brian Clark) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 12:03:48 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] arg list In-Reply-To: <50b4b0580904030854w148f19c6s16a7dafd222bd636@mail.gmail.com> References: <0016e643486aee9ec30466a3ab8a@google.com> <50b4b0580904030854w148f19c6s16a7dafd222bd636@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: >I don't know, and it's probably a matter of semantics, whether >you want to distinguish "ARG" from "ARE". We've done such a great job of answering the "what is an ARG" question that we're totally qualified to add "what is an ARE" and "how is an ARE different than ARG" to the pile. My personal opinion, we lack an umbrella term. Makes it hard for me parse out meaning in statements like: > one could argue "games" like Cloverfield were AREs as well I think that starts to overextend the ARE label as I understand it. There was the "hope by the fans" of an E at the end of the AR (which in this case was just F.) But I can imagine some umbrella that would contain it. -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of David Flor Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 11:54 AM To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list Added the ones I was involved with or are directly familiar with (White Island, for example), as well as went through and edited some that I was very familiar with as a player. I don't know, and it's probably a matter of semantics, whether you want to distinguish "ARG" from "ARE". The Lost Experience was self-labeled as an "ARE", and one could argue "games" like Cloverfield were AREs as well. And do you want to list ARGs that have been announced but not launched yet, such as our own "Rachel's Walk"? Tnx & Rgds... David Flor Darklight Interactive "Omne ignotum pro magnifico" On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 6:04 AM, wrote: > I've shared a document with you called "arg list": > http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pE0znztln2kmQruQyplrzeA&inv=arg_discu ss at igda.org > > It's not an attachment -- it's stored online at Google Docs. To open this > document, just click the link above. > > As mentioned earlier this week, I have begun compiling spreadsheet of > ARG's towards getting a listing of the all the brands that have worked > with ARGs as well as a listing of independent ARG's for ARGology. > Its attached here as an Excel spreadsheet and is very much in the draft > stage. > > > I urge one and all to cast an eye over it, correct mistakes and fill > any missing info including the many games that I appologise for not > including already. Im also open to persuasion about what constituties > and ARG as there are likely to be some contentious inclusions. > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From wendeth at wendydespain.com Fri Apr 3 12:08:47 2009 From: wendeth at wendydespain.com (Wendy Despain) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 09:08:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [arg_discuss] arg list In-Reply-To: References: <0016e643486aee9ec30466a3ab8a@google.com> <50b4b0580904030854w148f19c6s16a7dafd222bd636@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <17c74a00b3c9cd22cb5f9cb17cae9957.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> Well, I decided not to add the projects I've been involved in, because although I call them ARGs, nobody else can agree on what to call them. They resemble the Lost Experience and Regenesis the most, I suppose. But they happened prior to 2001, and it seemed inappropriate to put them first on this list ordered by date. What agony this kind of list-building is! Wendy Despain quantumcontent.com On Fri, April 3, 2009 9:03 am, Brian Clark wrote: >>I don't know, and it's probably a matter of semantics, whether >>you want to distinguish "ARG" from "ARE". > > We've done such a great job of answering the "what is an ARG" question > that > we're totally qualified to add "what is an ARE" and "how is an ARE > different > than ARG" to the pile. > > My personal opinion, we lack an umbrella term. Makes it hard for me > parse > out meaning in statements like: > >> one could argue "games" like Cloverfield were AREs as well > > I think that starts to overextend the ARE label as I understand it. > There > was the "hope by the fans" of an E at the end of the AR (which in this > case > was just F.) > > But I can imagine some umbrella that would contain it. > > -----Original Message----- > From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org > [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On > Behalf Of David Flor > Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 11:54 AM > To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG > Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list > > Added the ones I was involved with or are directly familiar with > (White Island, for example), as well as went through and edited some > that I was very familiar with as a player. > > I don't know, and it's probably a matter of semantics, whether you > want to distinguish "ARG" from "ARE". The Lost Experience was > self-labeled as an "ARE", and one could argue "games" like Cloverfield > were AREs as well. > > And do you want to list ARGs that have been announced but not launched > yet, such as our own "Rachel's Walk"? > > Tnx & Rgds... > David Flor > Darklight Interactive > "Omne ignotum pro magnifico" > > On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 6:04 AM, wrote: >> I've shared a document with you called "arg list": >> > http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pE0znztln2kmQruQyplrzeA&inv=arg_discu > ss at igda.org >> >> It's not an attachment -- it's stored online at Google Docs. To open >> this >> document, just click the link above. >> >> As mentioned earlier this week, I have begun compiling spreadsheet >> of >> ARG's towards getting a listing of the all the brands that have >> worked >> with ARGs as well as a listing of independent ARG's for ARGology. >> Its attached here as an Excel spreadsheet and is very much in the >> draft >> stage. >> >> >> I urge one and all to cast an eye over it, correct mistakes and fill >> any missing info including the many games that I appologise for not >> including already. Im also open to persuasion about what >> constituties >> and ARG as there are likely to be some contentious inclusions. >> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >> > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > Wendy Despain quantumcontent.com From bclark at gmdstudios.com Fri Apr 3 12:18:54 2009 From: bclark at gmdstudios.com (Brian Clark) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 12:18:54 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] arg list In-Reply-To: <17c74a00b3c9cd22cb5f9cb17cae9957.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> References: <0016e643486aee9ec30466a3ab8a@google.com><50b4b0580904030854w148f19c6s16a7dafd222bd636@mail.gmail.com> <17c74a00b3c9cd22cb5f9cb17cae9957.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> Message-ID: <115983EEB3E0484FBBD9F475CE7F940E@Tricorder> Don't get me started on the arbitrary 2001 start date of the genre category as well, Wendy. I think "Jonny Mnemonic" and "The Rift" for SGI in 1997 meet all the tests of most definitions of ARG but fail only because the violate the premise that "it all started with The Beast". Similar argument can be made The Blair Witch Project online. Who Is Benjamin Stove doesn't need Haxan in the authorship, and I think Mike prefers Campfire instead of Haxan. 39 Clues is an interesting addition, seems like another potential edge definer ... ARG? ARE? How so? Missing a tremendous number of beloved indie projects along that chain as well. -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Wendy Despain Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 12:09 PM To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list Well, I decided not to add the projects I've been involved in, because although I call them ARGs, nobody else can agree on what to call them. They resemble the Lost Experience and Regenesis the most, I suppose. But they happened prior to 2001, and it seemed inappropriate to put them first on this list ordered by date. What agony this kind of list-building is! Wendy Despain quantumcontent.com On Fri, April 3, 2009 9:03 am, Brian Clark wrote: >>I don't know, and it's probably a matter of semantics, whether >>you want to distinguish "ARG" from "ARE". > > We've done such a great job of answering the "what is an ARG" question > that > we're totally qualified to add "what is an ARE" and "how is an ARE > different > than ARG" to the pile. > > My personal opinion, we lack an umbrella term. Makes it hard for me > parse > out meaning in statements like: > >> one could argue "games" like Cloverfield were AREs as well > > I think that starts to overextend the ARE label as I understand it. > There > was the "hope by the fans" of an E at the end of the AR (which in this > case > was just F.) > > But I can imagine some umbrella that would contain it. > > -----Original Message----- > From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org > [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On > Behalf Of David Flor > Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 11:54 AM > To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG > Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list > > Added the ones I was involved with or are directly familiar with > (White Island, for example), as well as went through and edited some > that I was very familiar with as a player. > > I don't know, and it's probably a matter of semantics, whether you > want to distinguish "ARG" from "ARE". The Lost Experience was > self-labeled as an "ARE", and one could argue "games" like Cloverfield > were AREs as well. > > And do you want to list ARGs that have been announced but not launched > yet, such as our own "Rachel's Walk"? > > Tnx & Rgds... > David Flor > Darklight Interactive > "Omne ignotum pro magnifico" > > On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 6:04 AM, wrote: >> I've shared a document with you called "arg list": >> > http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pE0znztln2kmQruQyplrzeA&inv=arg_discu > ss at igda.org >> >> It's not an attachment -- it's stored online at Google Docs. To open >> this >> document, just click the link above. >> >> As mentioned earlier this week, I have begun compiling spreadsheet >> of >> ARG's towards getting a listing of the all the brands that have >> worked >> with ARGs as well as a listing of independent ARG's for ARGology. >> Its attached here as an Excel spreadsheet and is very much in the >> draft >> stage. >> >> >> I urge one and all to cast an eye over it, correct mistakes and fill >> any missing info including the many games that I appologise for not >> including already. Im also open to persuasion about what >> constituties >> and ARG as there are likely to be some contentious inclusions. >> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >> > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > Wendy Despain quantumcontent.com _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From scpeters at gmail.com Fri Apr 3 12:25:33 2009 From: scpeters at gmail.com (Steve Peters) Date: Fri, 03 Apr 2009 09:25:33 -0700 Subject: [arg_discuss] arg list In-Reply-To: <17c74a00b3c9cd22cb5f9cb17cae9957.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> Message-ID: It seems to me we're trying to reinvent the wheel here, to a certain extent. While the main interface to ARGDB was never really finished, there is already a WIKI there that is a really good start. I think it would be much more valuable to have actual WIKI space that can give detailed information about an ARG than to just have a spreadsheet somewhere. Anyway, the framework's there at http://wiki.argdb.com. It should be pretty simple to just start editing away and insert info about the games we've worked on. It'd be nice if someone came up with a standard credit/info box format for each game, but beyond that, folks can just start editing away! And if there's anyone with programming chops, take a look at the main ARGDB interface. It's a really good start and if finished would basically be an IMDB for ARGs if anyone wanted to take it on. :) Steve -------------------- Steve Peters Founder, No Mimes Media http://www.nomimes.com mobile: 818.422.4898 steve at nomimes.com twitter: vpisteve 34.183042,-118.281252 On 4/3/09 9:08 AM, "Wendy Despain" wrote: > > Well, I decided not to add the projects I've been involved in, because > although I call them ARGs, nobody else can agree on what to call them. > They resemble the Lost Experience and Regenesis the most, I suppose. > > But they happened prior to 2001, and it seemed inappropriate to put > them first on this list ordered by date. > > What agony this kind of list-building is! > > Wendy Despain > quantumcontent.com > > > On Fri, April 3, 2009 9:03 am, Brian Clark wrote: >>> I don't know, and it's probably a matter of semantics, whether >>> you want to distinguish "ARG" from "ARE". >> >> We've done such a great job of answering the "what is an ARG" question >> that >> we're totally qualified to add "what is an ARE" and "how is an ARE >> different >> than ARG" to the pile. >> >> My personal opinion, we lack an umbrella term. Makes it hard for me >> parse >> out meaning in statements like: >> >>> one could argue "games" like Cloverfield were AREs as well >> >> I think that starts to overextend the ARE label as I understand it. >> There >> was the "hope by the fans" of an E at the end of the AR (which in this >> case >> was just F.) >> >> But I can imagine some umbrella that would contain it. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org >> [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On >> Behalf Of David Flor >> Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 11:54 AM >> To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG >> Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list >> >> Added the ones I was involved with or are directly familiar with >> (White Island, for example), as well as went through and edited some >> that I was very familiar with as a player. >> >> I don't know, and it's probably a matter of semantics, whether you >> want to distinguish "ARG" from "ARE". The Lost Experience was >> self-labeled as an "ARE", and one could argue "games" like Cloverfield >> were AREs as well. >> >> And do you want to list ARGs that have been announced but not launched >> yet, such as our own "Rachel's Walk"? >> >> Tnx & Rgds... >> David Flor >> Darklight Interactive >> "Omne ignotum pro magnifico" >> >> On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 6:04 AM, wrote: >>> I've shared a document with you called "arg list": >>> >> http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pE0znztln2kmQruQyplrzeA&inv=arg_discu >> ss at igda.org >>> >>> It's not an attachment -- it's stored online at Google Docs. To open >>> this >>> document, just click the link above. >>> >>> As mentioned earlier this week, I have begun compiling spreadsheet >>> of >>> ARG's towards getting a listing of the all the brands that have >>> worked >>> with ARGs as well as a listing of independent ARG's for ARGology. >>> Its attached here as an Excel spreadsheet and is very much in the >>> draft >>> stage. >>> >>> >>> I urge one and all to cast an eye over it, correct mistakes and fill >>> any missing info including the many games that I appologise for not >>> including already. Im also open to persuasion about what >>> constituties >>> and ARG as there are likely to be some contentious inclusions. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ARG_Discuss mailing list >>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >> > > > Wendy Despain > quantumcontent.com > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From brooke at mirlandano.com Fri Apr 3 12:48:36 2009 From: brooke at mirlandano.com (Brooke Thompson) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 12:48:36 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] ARGdb (was Re: arg list) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0E36370D-16E4-4AE0-9E2D-F2F85A864D37@mirlandano.com> On ARGdb... the site itself is very near completion - at least for visitors, for users & admins it's a bit rough. That said, it's a potentially great resource that I'd very much like to see utilized. Ben & I put some good love and care into it and, I think, with just a bit of an organized effort (a small team of folks to gather current data and fix up some of the code & design) we could have something that would be much easier to maintain for the long term. But feel free to check out the site - poke around and see what works and what doesn't. I'd love the feedback and, more than that, I'd love it if some of you would like to get involved in helping to get the site together. site - www.argdb.com example game page - http://argdb.com/game/19/ Brooke On Apr 3, 2009, at 12:25 PM, Steve Peters wrote: > It seems to me we're trying to reinvent the wheel here, to a certain > extent. > While the main interface to ARGDB was never really finished, there is > already a WIKI there that is a really good start. I think it would > be much > more valuable to have actual WIKI space that can give detailed > information > about an ARG than to just have a spreadsheet somewhere. > > Anyway, the framework's there at http://wiki.argdb.com. It should be > pretty > simple to just start editing away and insert info about the games > we've > worked on. It'd be nice if someone came up with a standard credit/ > info box > format for each game, but beyond that, folks can just start editing > away! > > And if there's anyone with programming chops, take a look at the > main ARGDB > interface. It's a really good start and if finished would basically > be an > IMDB for ARGs if anyone wanted to take it on. :) > > Steve > > > -------------------- > Steve Peters > Founder, No Mimes Media > http://www.nomimes.com > mobile: 818.422.4898 > steve at nomimes.com > twitter: vpisteve > 34.183042,-118.281252 > > > On 4/3/09 9:08 AM, "Wendy Despain" wrote: > >> >> Well, I decided not to add the projects I've been involved in, >> because >> although I call them ARGs, nobody else can agree on what to call >> them. >> They resemble the Lost Experience and Regenesis the most, I suppose. >> >> But they happened prior to 2001, and it seemed inappropriate to put >> them first on this list ordered by date. >> >> What agony this kind of list-building is! >> >> Wendy Despain >> quantumcontent.com >> >> >> On Fri, April 3, 2009 9:03 am, Brian Clark wrote: >>>> I don't know, and it's probably a matter of semantics, whether >>>> you want to distinguish "ARG" from "ARE". >>> >>> We've done such a great job of answering the "what is an ARG" >>> question >>> that >>> we're totally qualified to add "what is an ARE" and "how is an ARE >>> different >>> than ARG" to the pile. >>> >>> My personal opinion, we lack an umbrella term. Makes it hard for me >>> parse >>> out meaning in statements like: >>> >>>> one could argue "games" like Cloverfield were AREs as well >>> >>> I think that starts to overextend the ARE label as I understand it. >>> There >>> was the "hope by the fans" of an E at the end of the AR (which in >>> this >>> case >>> was just F.) >>> >>> But I can imagine some umbrella that would contain it. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org >>> [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On >>> Behalf Of David Flor >>> Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 11:54 AM >>> To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG >>> Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list >>> >>> Added the ones I was involved with or are directly familiar with >>> (White Island, for example), as well as went through and edited some >>> that I was very familiar with as a player. >>> >>> I don't know, and it's probably a matter of semantics, whether you >>> want to distinguish "ARG" from "ARE". The Lost Experience was >>> self-labeled as an "ARE", and one could argue "games" like >>> Cloverfield >>> were AREs as well. >>> >>> And do you want to list ARGs that have been announced but not >>> launched >>> yet, such as our own "Rachel's Walk"? >>> >>> Tnx & Rgds... >>> David Flor >>> Darklight Interactive >>> "Omne ignotum pro magnifico" >>> >>> On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 6:04 AM, wrote: >>>> I've shared a document with you called "arg list": >>>> >>> http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pE0znztln2kmQruQyplrzeA&inv=arg_discu >>> ss at igda.org >>>> >>>> It's not an attachment -- it's stored online at Google Docs. To >>>> open >>>> this >>>> document, just click the link above. >>>> >>>> As mentioned earlier this week, I have begun compiling spreadsheet >>>> of >>>> ARG's towards getting a listing of the all the brands that have >>>> worked >>>> with ARGs as well as a listing of independent ARG's for ARGology. >>>> Its attached here as an Excel spreadsheet and is very much in the >>>> draft >>>> stage. >>>> >>>> >>>> I urge one and all to cast an eye over it, correct mistakes and >>>> fill >>>> any missing info including the many games that I appologise for not >>>> including already. Im also open to persuasion about what >>>> constituties >>>> and ARG as there are likely to be some contentious inclusions. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> ARG_Discuss mailing list >>>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >>>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ARG_Discuss mailing list >>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ARG_Discuss mailing list >>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >>> >> >> >> Wendy Despain >> quantumcontent.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From varineq at gmail.com Fri Apr 3 13:04:53 2009 From: varineq at gmail.com (Michelle Senderhauf) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 12:04:53 -0500 Subject: [arg_discuss] arg list In-Reply-To: References: <17c74a00b3c9cd22cb5f9cb17cae9957.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> Message-ID: <45cb08290904031004r3af740ecw81761492f6128815@mail.gmail.com> And don't forget we have a History of ARGs section on argology too - http://www.argology.org/history-of-args/ Michelle Senderhauf On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 11:25 AM, Steve Peters wrote: > It seems to me we're trying to reinvent the wheel here, to a certain > extent. > While the main interface to ARGDB was never really finished, there is > already a WIKI there that is a really good start. I think it would be much > more valuable to have actual WIKI space that can give detailed information > about an ARG than to just have a spreadsheet somewhere. > > Anyway, the framework's there at http://wiki.argdb.com. It should be > pretty > simple to just start editing away and insert info about the games we've > worked on. It'd be nice if someone came up with a standard credit/info box > format for each game, but beyond that, folks can just start editing away! > > And if there's anyone with programming chops, take a look at the main ARGDB > interface. It's a really good start and if finished would basically be an > IMDB for ARGs if anyone wanted to take it on. :) > > Steve > > > -------------------- > Steve Peters > Founder, No Mimes Media > http://www.nomimes.com > mobile: 818.422.4898 > steve at nomimes.com > twitter: vpisteve > 34.183042,-118.281252 > > > On 4/3/09 9:08 AM, "Wendy Despain" wrote: > > > > > Well, I decided not to add the projects I've been involved in, because > > although I call them ARGs, nobody else can agree on what to call them. > > They resemble the Lost Experience and Regenesis the most, I suppose. > > > > But they happened prior to 2001, and it seemed inappropriate to put > > them first on this list ordered by date. > > > > What agony this kind of list-building is! > > > > Wendy Despain > > quantumcontent.com > > > > > > On Fri, April 3, 2009 9:03 am, Brian Clark wrote: > >>> I don't know, and it's probably a matter of semantics, whether > >>> you want to distinguish "ARG" from "ARE". > >> > >> We've done such a great job of answering the "what is an ARG" question > >> that > >> we're totally qualified to add "what is an ARE" and "how is an ARE > >> different > >> than ARG" to the pile. > >> > >> My personal opinion, we lack an umbrella term. Makes it hard for me > >> parse > >> out meaning in statements like: > >> > >>> one could argue "games" like Cloverfield were AREs as well > >> > >> I think that starts to overextend the ARE label as I understand it. > >> There > >> was the "hope by the fans" of an E at the end of the AR (which in this > >> case > >> was just F.) > >> > >> But I can imagine some umbrella that would contain it. > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org > >> [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On > >> Behalf Of David Flor > >> Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 11:54 AM > >> To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG > >> Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list > >> > >> Added the ones I was involved with or are directly familiar with > >> (White Island, for example), as well as went through and edited some > >> that I was very familiar with as a player. > >> > >> I don't know, and it's probably a matter of semantics, whether you > >> want to distinguish "ARG" from "ARE". The Lost Experience was > >> self-labeled as an "ARE", and one could argue "games" like Cloverfield > >> were AREs as well. > >> > >> And do you want to list ARGs that have been announced but not launched > >> yet, such as our own "Rachel's Walk"? > >> > >> Tnx & Rgds... > >> David Flor > >> Darklight Interactive > >> "Omne ignotum pro magnifico" > >> > >> On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 6:04 AM, wrote: > >>> I've shared a document with you called "arg list": > >>> > >> > http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pE0znztln2kmQruQyplrzeA&inv=arg_discu > >> ss at igda.org > >>> > >>> It's not an attachment -- it's stored online at Google Docs. To open > >>> this > >>> document, just click the link above. > >>> > >>> As mentioned earlier this week, I have begun compiling spreadsheet > >>> of > >>> ARG's towards getting a listing of the all the brands that have > >>> worked > >>> with ARGs as well as a listing of independent ARG's for ARGology. > >>> Its attached here as an Excel spreadsheet and is very much in the > >>> draft > >>> stage. > >>> > >>> > >>> I urge one and all to cast an eye over it, correct mistakes and fill > >>> any missing info including the many games that I appologise for not > >>> including already. Im also open to persuasion about what > >>> constituties > >>> and ARG as there are likely to be some contentious inclusions. > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> ARG_Discuss mailing list > >>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org > >>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > >>> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> ARG_Discuss mailing list > >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org > >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> ARG_Discuss mailing list > >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org > >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > >> > > > > > > Wendy Despain > > quantumcontent.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > ARG_Discuss mailing list > > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > From bclark at gmdstudios.com Fri Apr 3 13:26:44 2009 From: bclark at gmdstudios.com (Brian Clark) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 13:26:44 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] the umbrella (was RE: arg list) In-Reply-To: References: <17c74a00b3c9cd22cb5f9cb17cae9957.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> Message-ID: Forking this off of "the arg list" discussion, but can't keep my fingers out of the semantical. Making lists and timelines and databases is great, but it immediately begs the definition question: what counts as an element and what doesn't is intrinsic in the discussion. Personally, I'm past the point of worrying about the semantic parsing of ARG. I'm far more interested in the concept of the meta-definition, the umbrella that contains the most stuff that most people thing are "ish" and how we label that across the whole variety. I wonder if we wouldn't be served to think about that, and see if we can let descriptive taxonomy guide the definition. If could envision the "ultimate solution" the physical equivalent would be -- write down each ARG on a card, and tape them up to the wall in a way where "more alike" are closer to each in location than "more different" projects are. Go ahead and throw as much context as necessary on the cards. Where are the clots of similar projects and what are their defining traits (and thus, what else is "near" to them)? Which of the clots fall into "ARG" category, how many into "significantly ARG-like" and how many into the "tends not to be high-related to ARGness"? Then I think, "there's a dissertation worth of dialog" to make that happen, even with the right tool. Does any of the existing efforts (wiki on through) potentially serve as platform adaptable to that kind of "clustering" approach? -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Steve Peters Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 12:26 PM To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list It seems to me we're trying to reinvent the wheel here, to a certain extent. While the main interface to ARGDB was never really finished, there is already a WIKI there that is a really good start. I think it would be much more valuable to have actual WIKI space that can give detailed information about an ARG than to just have a spreadsheet somewhere. Anyway, the framework's there at http://wiki.argdb.com. It should be pretty simple to just start editing away and insert info about the games we've worked on. It'd be nice if someone came up with a standard credit/info box format for each game, but beyond that, folks can just start editing away! And if there's anyone with programming chops, take a look at the main ARGDB interface. It's a really good start and if finished would basically be an IMDB for ARGs if anyone wanted to take it on. :) Steve -------------------- Steve Peters Founder, No Mimes Media http://www.nomimes.com mobile: 818.422.4898 steve at nomimes.com twitter: vpisteve 34.183042,-118.281252 On 4/3/09 9:08 AM, "Wendy Despain" wrote: > > Well, I decided not to add the projects I've been involved in, because > although I call them ARGs, nobody else can agree on what to call them. > They resemble the Lost Experience and Regenesis the most, I suppose. > > But they happened prior to 2001, and it seemed inappropriate to put > them first on this list ordered by date. > > What agony this kind of list-building is! > > Wendy Despain > quantumcontent.com > > > On Fri, April 3, 2009 9:03 am, Brian Clark wrote: >>> I don't know, and it's probably a matter of semantics, whether >>> you want to distinguish "ARG" from "ARE". >> >> We've done such a great job of answering the "what is an ARG" question >> that >> we're totally qualified to add "what is an ARE" and "how is an ARE >> different >> than ARG" to the pile. >> >> My personal opinion, we lack an umbrella term. Makes it hard for me >> parse >> out meaning in statements like: >> >>> one could argue "games" like Cloverfield were AREs as well >> >> I think that starts to overextend the ARE label as I understand it. >> There >> was the "hope by the fans" of an E at the end of the AR (which in this >> case >> was just F.) >> >> But I can imagine some umbrella that would contain it. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org >> [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On >> Behalf Of David Flor >> Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 11:54 AM >> To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG >> Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list >> >> Added the ones I was involved with or are directly familiar with >> (White Island, for example), as well as went through and edited some >> that I was very familiar with as a player. >> >> I don't know, and it's probably a matter of semantics, whether you >> want to distinguish "ARG" from "ARE". The Lost Experience was >> self-labeled as an "ARE", and one could argue "games" like Cloverfield >> were AREs as well. >> >> And do you want to list ARGs that have been announced but not launched >> yet, such as our own "Rachel's Walk"? >> >> Tnx & Rgds... >> David Flor >> Darklight Interactive >> "Omne ignotum pro magnifico" >> >> On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 6:04 AM, wrote: >>> I've shared a document with you called "arg list": >>> >> http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pE0znztln2kmQruQyplrzeA&inv=arg_discu >> ss at igda.org >>> >>> It's not an attachment -- it's stored online at Google Docs. To open >>> this >>> document, just click the link above. >>> >>> As mentioned earlier this week, I have begun compiling spreadsheet >>> of >>> ARG's towards getting a listing of the all the brands that have >>> worked >>> with ARGs as well as a listing of independent ARG's for ARGology. >>> Its attached here as an Excel spreadsheet and is very much in the >>> draft >>> stage. >>> >>> >>> I urge one and all to cast an eye over it, correct mistakes and fill >>> any missing info including the many games that I appologise for not >>> including already. Im also open to persuasion about what >>> constituties >>> and ARG as there are likely to be some contentious inclusions. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ARG_Discuss mailing list >>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >> > > > Wendy Despain > quantumcontent.com > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From brooke at mirlandano.com Fri Apr 3 14:28:46 2009 From: brooke at mirlandano.com (Brooke Thompson) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 14:28:46 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] the umbrella (was RE: arg list) In-Reply-To: References: <17c74a00b3c9cd22cb5f9cb17cae9957.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> Message-ID: <590206F9-EFCE-4B9D-877B-2CFB67A900A6@mirlandano.com> I don't know of any of the existing bits and pieces, but I know that there was a pen & paper effort at this during ARGfest SF and there are bits and pieces from that on unfiction. Based on that work and thinking of the discussion of Sean Stacey's Chaotic Fiction, I believe the way to go about it would be a system that let people rate experience on several scales and then aggregates that data into a chart. If you just want to have an index card where people can throw context down on things - the argdb wiki would work for that... just add more bullet points under each game. The difficulty, of course, is in actually seeing and relating the games to each other as they're in an alphabetical list. However, that information could be put into the ARGdb database and then visualized in some manner - it would, of course, need to be standardized in some way to actually work. All that said, if someone wants to create such a system or manner, I'd gladly give some smart programmer sort access to the ARGdb site & database to help facilitate such a project. I mean we might as well take advantage of the information that we've already gathered. I think it would be relatively trivial to add a bit onto each game page that would let visitors rank the game on various things (such as interactivity, platform types, etc) and from that several different charts could be created for a variety of uses. On Apr 3, 2009, at 1:26 PM, Brian Clark wrote: > Forking this off of "the arg list" discussion, but can't keep my > fingers out > of the semantical. Making lists and timelines and databases is > great, but it > immediately begs the definition question: what counts as an element > and what > doesn't is intrinsic in the discussion. > > Personally, I'm past the point of worrying about the semantic > parsing of > ARG. I'm far more interested in the concept of the meta-definition, > the > umbrella that contains the most stuff that most people thing are > "ish" and > how we label that across the whole variety. > > I wonder if we wouldn't be served to think about that, and see if we > can let > descriptive taxonomy guide the definition. If could envision the > "ultimate > solution" the physical equivalent would be -- write down each ARG on > a card, > and tape them up to the wall in a way where "more alike" are closer > to each > in location than "more different" projects are. Go ahead and throw > as much > context as necessary on the cards. Where are the clots of similar > projects > and what are their defining traits (and thus, what else is "near" to > them)? > Which of the clots fall into "ARG" category, how many into > "significantly > ARG-like" and how many into the "tends not to be high-related to > ARGness"? > > Then I think, "there's a dissertation worth of dialog" to make that > happen, > even with the right tool. Does any of the existing efforts (wiki on > through) > potentially serve as platform adaptable to that kind of "clustering" > approach? > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org > ] On > Behalf Of Steve Peters > Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 12:26 PM > To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG > Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list > > It seems to me we're trying to reinvent the wheel here, to a certain > extent. > While the main interface to ARGDB was never really finished, there is > already a WIKI there that is a really good start. I think it would > be much > more valuable to have actual WIKI space that can give detailed > information > about an ARG than to just have a spreadsheet somewhere. > > Anyway, the framework's there at http://wiki.argdb.com. It should be > pretty > simple to just start editing away and insert info about the games > we've > worked on. It'd be nice if someone came up with a standard credit/ > info box > format for each game, but beyond that, folks can just start editing > away! > > And if there's anyone with programming chops, take a look at the > main ARGDB > interface. It's a really good start and if finished would basically > be an > IMDB for ARGs if anyone wanted to take it on. :) > > Steve > > > -------------------- > Steve Peters > Founder, No Mimes Media > http://www.nomimes.com > mobile: 818.422.4898 > steve at nomimes.com > twitter: vpisteve > 34.183042,-118.281252 > > > On 4/3/09 9:08 AM, "Wendy Despain" wrote: > >> >> Well, I decided not to add the projects I've been involved in, >> because >> although I call them ARGs, nobody else can agree on what to call >> them. >> They resemble the Lost Experience and Regenesis the most, I suppose. >> >> But they happened prior to 2001, and it seemed inappropriate to put >> them first on this list ordered by date. >> >> What agony this kind of list-building is! >> >> Wendy Despain >> quantumcontent.com >> >> >> On Fri, April 3, 2009 9:03 am, Brian Clark wrote: >>>> I don't know, and it's probably a matter of semantics, whether >>>> you want to distinguish "ARG" from "ARE". >>> >>> We've done such a great job of answering the "what is an ARG" >>> question >>> that >>> we're totally qualified to add "what is an ARE" and "how is an ARE >>> different >>> than ARG" to the pile. >>> >>> My personal opinion, we lack an umbrella term. Makes it hard for me >>> parse >>> out meaning in statements like: >>> >>>> one could argue "games" like Cloverfield were AREs as well >>> >>> I think that starts to overextend the ARE label as I understand it. >>> There >>> was the "hope by the fans" of an E at the end of the AR (which in >>> this >>> case >>> was just F.) >>> >>> But I can imagine some umbrella that would contain it. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org >>> [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On >>> Behalf Of David Flor >>> Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 11:54 AM >>> To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG >>> Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list >>> >>> Added the ones I was involved with or are directly familiar with >>> (White Island, for example), as well as went through and edited some >>> that I was very familiar with as a player. >>> >>> I don't know, and it's probably a matter of semantics, whether you >>> want to distinguish "ARG" from "ARE". The Lost Experience was >>> self-labeled as an "ARE", and one could argue "games" like >>> Cloverfield >>> were AREs as well. >>> >>> And do you want to list ARGs that have been announced but not >>> launched >>> yet, such as our own "Rachel's Walk"? >>> >>> Tnx & Rgds... >>> David Flor >>> Darklight Interactive >>> "Omne ignotum pro magnifico" >>> >>> On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 6:04 AM, wrote: >>>> I've shared a document with you called "arg list": >>>> >>> > http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pE0znztln2kmQruQyplrzeA&inv=arg_discu >>> ss at igda.org >>>> >>>> It's not an attachment -- it's stored online at Google Docs. To >>>> open >>>> this >>>> document, just click the link above. >>>> >>>> As mentioned earlier this week, I have begun compiling spreadsheet >>>> of >>>> ARG's towards getting a listing of the all the brands that have >>>> worked >>>> with ARGs as well as a listing of independent ARG's for ARGology. >>>> Its attached here as an Excel spreadsheet and is very much in the >>>> draft >>>> stage. >>>> >>>> >>>> I urge one and all to cast an eye over it, correct mistakes and >>>> fill >>>> any missing info including the many games that I appologise for not >>>> including already. Im also open to persuasion about what >>>> constituties >>>> and ARG as there are likely to be some contentious inclusions. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> ARG_Discuss mailing list >>>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >>>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ARG_Discuss mailing list >>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ARG_Discuss mailing list >>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >>> >> >> >> Wendy Despain >> quantumcontent.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From wendeth at wendydespain.com Fri Apr 3 14:31:51 2009 From: wendeth at wendydespain.com (Wendy Despain) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 11:31:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [arg_discuss] the umbrella (was RE: arg list) In-Reply-To: References: <17c74a00b3c9cd22cb5f9cb17cae9957.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> Message-ID: <8a11d033f1ff7753c0299a1ef1a280db.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> It sounds like maybe you're looking for "mind mapping" software. Do a google search on "mind map" and see if any of the links there are suitable. Wendy Despain quantumcontent.com On Fri, April 3, 2009 10:26 am, Brian Clark wrote: > Forking this off of "the arg list" discussion, but can't keep my > fingers out > of the semantical. Making lists and timelines and databases is great, > but it > immediately begs the definition question: what counts as an element > and what > doesn't is intrinsic in the discussion. > > Personally, I'm past the point of worrying about the semantic parsing > of > ARG. I'm far more interested in the concept of the meta-definition, > the > umbrella that contains the most stuff that most people thing are "ish" > and > how we label that across the whole variety. > > I wonder if we wouldn't be served to think about that, and see if we > can let > descriptive taxonomy guide the definition. If could envision the > "ultimate > solution" the physical equivalent would be -- write down each ARG on a > card, > and tape them up to the wall in a way where "more alike" are closer to > each > in location than "more different" projects are. Go ahead and throw as > much > context as necessary on the cards. Where are the clots of similar > projects > and what are their defining traits (and thus, what else is "near" to > them)? > Which of the clots fall into "ARG" category, how many into > "significantly > ARG-like" and how many into the "tends not to be high-related to > ARGness"? > > Then I think, "there's a dissertation worth of dialog" to make that > happen, > even with the right tool. Does any of the existing efforts (wiki on > through) > potentially serve as platform adaptable to that kind of "clustering" > approach? > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org > [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On > Behalf Of Steve Peters > Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 12:26 PM > To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG > Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list > > It seems to me we're trying to reinvent the wheel here, to a certain > extent. > While the main interface to ARGDB was never really finished, there is > already a WIKI there that is a really good start. I think it would be > much > more valuable to have actual WIKI space that can give detailed > information > about an ARG than to just have a spreadsheet somewhere. > > Anyway, the framework's there at http://wiki.argdb.com. It should be > pretty > simple to just start editing away and insert info about the games > we've > worked on. It'd be nice if someone came up with a standard credit/info > box > format for each game, but beyond that, folks can just start editing > away! > > And if there's anyone with programming chops, take a look at the main > ARGDB > interface. It's a really good start and if finished would basically be > an > IMDB for ARGs if anyone wanted to take it on. :) > > Steve > > > -------------------- > Steve Peters > Founder, No Mimes Media > http://www.nomimes.com > mobile: 818.422.4898 > steve at nomimes.com > twitter: vpisteve > 34.183042,-118.281252 > > > On 4/3/09 9:08 AM, "Wendy Despain" wrote: > >> >> Well, I decided not to add the projects I've been involved in, >> because >> although I call them ARGs, nobody else can agree on what to call >> them. >> They resemble the Lost Experience and Regenesis the most, I suppose. >> >> But they happened prior to 2001, and it seemed inappropriate to put >> them first on this list ordered by date. >> >> What agony this kind of list-building is! >> >> Wendy Despain >> quantumcontent.com >> >> >> On Fri, April 3, 2009 9:03 am, Brian Clark wrote: >>>> I don't know, and it's probably a matter of semantics, whether >>>> you want to distinguish "ARG" from "ARE". >>> >>> We've done such a great job of answering the "what is an ARG" >>> question >>> that >>> we're totally qualified to add "what is an ARE" and "how is an ARE >>> different >>> than ARG" to the pile. >>> >>> My personal opinion, we lack an umbrella term. Makes it hard for me >>> parse >>> out meaning in statements like: >>> >>>> one could argue "games" like Cloverfield were AREs as well >>> >>> I think that starts to overextend the ARE label as I understand it. >>> There >>> was the "hope by the fans" of an E at the end of the AR (which in >>> this >>> case >>> was just F.) >>> >>> But I can imagine some umbrella that would contain it. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org >>> [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On >>> Behalf Of David Flor >>> Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 11:54 AM >>> To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG >>> Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list >>> >>> Added the ones I was involved with or are directly familiar with >>> (White Island, for example), as well as went through and edited >>> some >>> that I was very familiar with as a player. >>> >>> I don't know, and it's probably a matter of semantics, whether you >>> want to distinguish "ARG" from "ARE". The Lost Experience was >>> self-labeled as an "ARE", and one could argue "games" like >>> Cloverfield >>> were AREs as well. >>> >>> And do you want to list ARGs that have been announced but not >>> launched >>> yet, such as our own "Rachel's Walk"? >>> >>> Tnx & Rgds... >>> David Flor >>> Darklight Interactive >>> "Omne ignotum pro magnifico" >>> >>> On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 6:04 AM, wrote: >>>> I've shared a document with you called "arg list": >>>> >>> > http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pE0znztln2kmQruQyplrzeA&inv=arg_discu >>> ss at igda.org >>>> >>>> It's not an attachment -- it's stored online at Google Docs. To >>>> open >>>> this >>>> document, just click the link above. >>>> >>>> As mentioned earlier this week, I have begun compiling spreadsheet >>>> of >>>> ARG's towards getting a listing of the all the brands that have >>>> worked >>>> with ARGs as well as a listing of independent ARG's for ARGology. >>>> Its attached here as an Excel spreadsheet and is very much in the >>>> draft >>>> stage. >>>> >>>> >>>> I urge one and all to cast an eye over it, correct mistakes and >>>> fill >>>> any missing info including the many games that I appologise for >>>> not >>>> including already. Im also open to persuasion about what >>>> constituties >>>> and ARG as there are likely to be some contentious inclusions. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> ARG_Discuss mailing list >>>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >>>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ARG_Discuss mailing list >>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ARG_Discuss mailing list >>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >>> >> >> >> Wendy Despain >> quantumcontent.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > Wendy Despain quantumcontent.com From wendeth at wendydespain.com Fri Apr 3 14:51:00 2009 From: wendeth at wendydespain.com (Wendy Despain) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 11:51:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [arg_discuss] the umbrella (was RE: arg list) In-Reply-To: <590206F9-EFCE-4B9D-877B-2CFB67A900A6@mirlandano.com> References: <17c74a00b3c9cd22cb5f9cb17cae9957.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> <590206F9-EFCE-4B9D-877B-2CFB67A900A6@mirlandano.com> Message-ID: <795b2261325bb5ee6535aa79de8e6b64.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> I have to admit I thought ARGDB was dead, partly because the latest post on the homepage was a year old. I'm glad to hear it's still alive. Wendy Despain On Fri, April 3, 2009 11:28 am, Brooke Thompson wrote: > I don't know of any of the existing bits and pieces, but I know that > there was a pen & paper effort at this during ARGfest SF and there are > bits and pieces from that on unfiction. Based on that work and > thinking of the discussion of Sean Stacey's Chaotic Fiction, I believe > the way to go about it would be a system that let people rate > experience on several scales and then aggregates that data into a > chart. > > If you just want to have an index card where people can throw context > down on things - the argdb wiki would work for that... just add more > bullet points under each game. The difficulty, of course, is in > actually seeing and relating the games to each other as they're in an > alphabetical list. However, that information could be put into the > ARGdb database and then visualized in some manner - it would, of > course, need to be standardized in some way to actually work. > > All that said, if someone wants to create such a system or manner, I'd > gladly give some smart programmer sort access to the ARGdb site & > database to help facilitate such a project. I mean we might as well > take advantage of the information that we've already gathered. I think > it would be relatively trivial to add a bit onto each game page that > would let visitors rank the game on various things (such as > interactivity, platform types, etc) and from that several different > charts could be created for a variety of uses. > > > > > On Apr 3, 2009, at 1:26 PM, Brian Clark wrote: > >> Forking this off of "the arg list" discussion, but can't keep my >> fingers out >> of the semantical. Making lists and timelines and databases is >> great, but it >> immediately begs the definition question: what counts as an element >> and what >> doesn't is intrinsic in the discussion. >> >> Personally, I'm past the point of worrying about the semantic >> parsing of >> ARG. I'm far more interested in the concept of the meta-definition, >> the >> umbrella that contains the most stuff that most people thing are >> "ish" and >> how we label that across the whole variety. >> >> I wonder if we wouldn't be served to think about that, and see if we >> can let >> descriptive taxonomy guide the definition. If could envision the >> "ultimate >> solution" the physical equivalent would be -- write down each ARG on >> a card, >> and tape them up to the wall in a way where "more alike" are closer >> to each >> in location than "more different" projects are. Go ahead and throw >> as much >> context as necessary on the cards. Where are the clots of similar >> projects >> and what are their defining traits (and thus, what else is "near" to >> them)? >> Which of the clots fall into "ARG" category, how many into >> "significantly >> ARG-like" and how many into the "tends not to be high-related to >> ARGness"? >> >> Then I think, "there's a dissertation worth of dialog" to make that >> happen, >> even with the right tool. Does any of the existing efforts (wiki on >> through) >> potentially serve as platform adaptable to that kind of "clustering" >> approach? >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org >> [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org >> ] On >> Behalf Of Steve Peters >> Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 12:26 PM >> To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG >> Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list >> >> It seems to me we're trying to reinvent the wheel here, to a certain >> extent. >> While the main interface to ARGDB was never really finished, there >> is >> already a WIKI there that is a really good start. I think it would >> be much >> more valuable to have actual WIKI space that can give detailed >> information >> about an ARG than to just have a spreadsheet somewhere. >> >> Anyway, the framework's there at http://wiki.argdb.com. It should be >> pretty >> simple to just start editing away and insert info about the games >> we've >> worked on. It'd be nice if someone came up with a standard credit/ >> info box >> format for each game, but beyond that, folks can just start editing >> away! >> >> And if there's anyone with programming chops, take a look at the >> main ARGDB >> interface. It's a really good start and if finished would basically >> be an >> IMDB for ARGs if anyone wanted to take it on. :) >> >> Steve >> >> >> -------------------- >> Steve Peters >> Founder, No Mimes Media >> http://www.nomimes.com >> mobile: 818.422.4898 >> steve at nomimes.com >> twitter: vpisteve >> 34.183042,-118.281252 >> >> >> On 4/3/09 9:08 AM, "Wendy Despain" wrote: >> >>> >>> Well, I decided not to add the projects I've been involved in, >>> because >>> although I call them ARGs, nobody else can agree on what to call >>> them. >>> They resemble the Lost Experience and Regenesis the most, I >>> suppose. >>> >>> But they happened prior to 2001, and it seemed inappropriate to put >>> them first on this list ordered by date. >>> >>> What agony this kind of list-building is! >>> >>> Wendy Despain >>> quantumcontent.com >>> >>> >>> On Fri, April 3, 2009 9:03 am, Brian Clark wrote: >>>>> I don't know, and it's probably a matter of semantics, whether >>>>> you want to distinguish "ARG" from "ARE". >>>> >>>> We've done such a great job of answering the "what is an ARG" >>>> question >>>> that >>>> we're totally qualified to add "what is an ARE" and "how is an ARE >>>> different >>>> than ARG" to the pile. >>>> >>>> My personal opinion, we lack an umbrella term. Makes it hard for >>>> me >>>> parse >>>> out meaning in statements like: >>>> >>>>> one could argue "games" like Cloverfield were AREs as well >>>> >>>> I think that starts to overextend the ARE label as I understand >>>> it. >>>> There >>>> was the "hope by the fans" of an E at the end of the AR (which in >>>> this >>>> case >>>> was just F.) >>>> >>>> But I can imagine some umbrella that would contain it. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org >>>> [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On >>>> Behalf Of David Flor >>>> Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 11:54 AM >>>> To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG >>>> Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list >>>> >>>> Added the ones I was involved with or are directly familiar with >>>> (White Island, for example), as well as went through and edited >>>> some >>>> that I was very familiar with as a player. >>>> >>>> I don't know, and it's probably a matter of semantics, whether you >>>> want to distinguish "ARG" from "ARE". The Lost Experience was >>>> self-labeled as an "ARE", and one could argue "games" like >>>> Cloverfield >>>> were AREs as well. >>>> >>>> And do you want to list ARGs that have been announced but not >>>> launched >>>> yet, such as our own "Rachel's Walk"? >>>> >>>> Tnx & Rgds... >>>> David Flor >>>> Darklight Interactive >>>> "Omne ignotum pro magnifico" >>>> >>>> On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 6:04 AM, wrote: >>>>> I've shared a document with you called "arg list": >>>>> >>>> >> http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pE0znztln2kmQruQyplrzeA&inv=arg_discu >>>> ss at igda.org >>>>> >>>>> It's not an attachment -- it's stored online at Google Docs. To >>>>> open >>>>> this >>>>> document, just click the link above. >>>>> >>>>> As mentioned earlier this week, I have begun compiling >>>>> spreadsheet >>>>> of >>>>> ARG's towards getting a listing of the all the brands that have >>>>> worked >>>>> with ARGs as well as a listing of independent ARG's for ARGology. >>>>> Its attached here as an Excel spreadsheet and is very much in the >>>>> draft >>>>> stage. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I urge one and all to cast an eye over it, correct mistakes and >>>>> fill >>>>> any missing info including the many games that I appologise for >>>>> not >>>>> including already. Im also open to persuasion about what >>>>> constituties >>>>> and ARG as there are likely to be some contentious inclusions. >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> ARG_Discuss mailing list >>>>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >>>>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> ARG_Discuss mailing list >>>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >>>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> ARG_Discuss mailing list >>>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >>>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >>>> >>> >>> >>> Wendy Despain >>> quantumcontent.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ARG_Discuss mailing list >>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > Wendy Despain quantumcontent.com From brooke at mirlandano.com Fri Apr 3 15:00:34 2009 From: brooke at mirlandano.com (Brooke Thompson) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 15:00:34 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] the umbrella (was RE: arg list) In-Reply-To: <795b2261325bb5ee6535aa79de8e6b64.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> References: <17c74a00b3c9cd22cb5f9cb17cae9957.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> <590206F9-EFCE-4B9D-877B-2CFB67A900A6@mirlandano.com> <795b2261325bb5ee6535aa79de8e6b64.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> Message-ID: Well, it had stagnated as it didn't seem that there was any interest in it and adding all the info/keeping it updated was too much work for the few that were showing interest. So, it took a big back seat to other (paying and productive) projects. However, I think it can be an amazing resource and am very much interested in taking it off life support if others feel the same - and if there's enough interest in the site that it will get updated. Feedback is also useful as then we know that folks are interested and what they will need from the site in order to make it useful to them. It's difficult & overwhelming to work on such a project in a vacuum. On Apr 3, 2009, at 2:51 PM, Wendy Despain wrote: > I have to admit I thought ARGDB was dead, partly because the latest > post on the homepage was a year old. > > I'm glad to hear it's still alive. > > Wendy Despain > > > > On Fri, April 3, 2009 11:28 am, Brooke Thompson wrote: >> I don't know of any of the existing bits and pieces, but I know that >> there was a pen & paper effort at this during ARGfest SF and there >> are >> bits and pieces from that on unfiction. Based on that work and >> thinking of the discussion of Sean Stacey's Chaotic Fiction, I >> believe >> the way to go about it would be a system that let people rate >> experience on several scales and then aggregates that data into a >> chart. >> >> If you just want to have an index card where people can throw context >> down on things - the argdb wiki would work for that... just add more >> bullet points under each game. The difficulty, of course, is in >> actually seeing and relating the games to each other as they're in an >> alphabetical list. However, that information could be put into the >> ARGdb database and then visualized in some manner - it would, of >> course, need to be standardized in some way to actually work. >> >> All that said, if someone wants to create such a system or manner, >> I'd >> gladly give some smart programmer sort access to the ARGdb site & >> database to help facilitate such a project. I mean we might as well >> take advantage of the information that we've already gathered. I >> think >> it would be relatively trivial to add a bit onto each game page that >> would let visitors rank the game on various things (such as >> interactivity, platform types, etc) and from that several different >> charts could be created for a variety of uses. >> >> >> >> >> On Apr 3, 2009, at 1:26 PM, Brian Clark wrote: >> >>> Forking this off of "the arg list" discussion, but can't keep my >>> fingers out >>> of the semantical. Making lists and timelines and databases is >>> great, but it >>> immediately begs the definition question: what counts as an element >>> and what >>> doesn't is intrinsic in the discussion. >>> >>> Personally, I'm past the point of worrying about the semantic >>> parsing of >>> ARG. I'm far more interested in the concept of the meta-definition, >>> the >>> umbrella that contains the most stuff that most people thing are >>> "ish" and >>> how we label that across the whole variety. >>> >>> I wonder if we wouldn't be served to think about that, and see if we >>> can let >>> descriptive taxonomy guide the definition. If could envision the >>> "ultimate >>> solution" the physical equivalent would be -- write down each ARG on >>> a card, >>> and tape them up to the wall in a way where "more alike" are closer >>> to each >>> in location than "more different" projects are. Go ahead and throw >>> as much >>> context as necessary on the cards. Where are the clots of similar >>> projects >>> and what are their defining traits (and thus, what else is "near" to >>> them)? >>> Which of the clots fall into "ARG" category, how many into >>> "significantly >>> ARG-like" and how many into the "tends not to be high-related to >>> ARGness"? >>> >>> Then I think, "there's a dissertation worth of dialog" to make that >>> happen, >>> even with the right tool. Does any of the existing efforts (wiki on >>> through) >>> potentially serve as platform adaptable to that kind of "clustering" >>> approach? >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org >>> [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org >>> ] On >>> Behalf Of Steve Peters >>> Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 12:26 PM >>> To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG >>> Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list >>> >>> It seems to me we're trying to reinvent the wheel here, to a certain >>> extent. >>> While the main interface to ARGDB was never really finished, there >>> is >>> already a WIKI there that is a really good start. I think it would >>> be much >>> more valuable to have actual WIKI space that can give detailed >>> information >>> about an ARG than to just have a spreadsheet somewhere. >>> >>> Anyway, the framework's there at http://wiki.argdb.com. It should be >>> pretty >>> simple to just start editing away and insert info about the games >>> we've >>> worked on. It'd be nice if someone came up with a standard credit/ >>> info box >>> format for each game, but beyond that, folks can just start editing >>> away! >>> >>> And if there's anyone with programming chops, take a look at the >>> main ARGDB >>> interface. It's a really good start and if finished would basically >>> be an >>> IMDB for ARGs if anyone wanted to take it on. :) >>> >>> Steve >>> >>> >>> -------------------- >>> Steve Peters >>> Founder, No Mimes Media >>> http://www.nomimes.com >>> mobile: 818.422.4898 >>> steve at nomimes.com >>> twitter: vpisteve >>> 34.183042,-118.281252 >>> >>> >>> On 4/3/09 9:08 AM, "Wendy Despain" wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Well, I decided not to add the projects I've been involved in, >>>> because >>>> although I call them ARGs, nobody else can agree on what to call >>>> them. >>>> They resemble the Lost Experience and Regenesis the most, I >>>> suppose. >>>> >>>> But they happened prior to 2001, and it seemed inappropriate to put >>>> them first on this list ordered by date. >>>> >>>> What agony this kind of list-building is! >>>> >>>> Wendy Despain >>>> quantumcontent.com >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, April 3, 2009 9:03 am, Brian Clark wrote: >>>>>> I don't know, and it's probably a matter of semantics, whether >>>>>> you want to distinguish "ARG" from "ARE". >>>>> >>>>> We've done such a great job of answering the "what is an ARG" >>>>> question >>>>> that >>>>> we're totally qualified to add "what is an ARE" and "how is an ARE >>>>> different >>>>> than ARG" to the pile. >>>>> >>>>> My personal opinion, we lack an umbrella term. Makes it hard for >>>>> me >>>>> parse >>>>> out meaning in statements like: >>>>> >>>>>> one could argue "games" like Cloverfield were AREs as well >>>>> >>>>> I think that starts to overextend the ARE label as I understand >>>>> it. >>>>> There >>>>> was the "hope by the fans" of an E at the end of the AR (which in >>>>> this >>>>> case >>>>> was just F.) >>>>> >>>>> But I can imagine some umbrella that would contain it. >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org >>>>> [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On >>>>> Behalf Of David Flor >>>>> Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 11:54 AM >>>>> To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG >>>>> Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list >>>>> >>>>> Added the ones I was involved with or are directly familiar with >>>>> (White Island, for example), as well as went through and edited >>>>> some >>>>> that I was very familiar with as a player. >>>>> >>>>> I don't know, and it's probably a matter of semantics, whether you >>>>> want to distinguish "ARG" from "ARE". The Lost Experience was >>>>> self-labeled as an "ARE", and one could argue "games" like >>>>> Cloverfield >>>>> were AREs as well. >>>>> >>>>> And do you want to list ARGs that have been announced but not >>>>> launched >>>>> yet, such as our own "Rachel's Walk"? >>>>> >>>>> Tnx & Rgds... >>>>> David Flor >>>>> Darklight Interactive >>>>> "Omne ignotum pro magnifico" >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 6:04 AM, wrote: >>>>>> I've shared a document with you called "arg list": >>>>>> >>>>> >>> http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pE0znztln2kmQruQyplrzeA&inv=arg_discu >>>>> ss at igda.org >>>>>> >>>>>> It's not an attachment -- it's stored online at Google Docs. To >>>>>> open >>>>>> this >>>>>> document, just click the link above. >>>>>> >>>>>> As mentioned earlier this week, I have begun compiling >>>>>> spreadsheet >>>>>> of >>>>>> ARG's towards getting a listing of the all the brands that have >>>>>> worked >>>>>> with ARGs as well as a listing of independent ARG's for ARGology. >>>>>> Its attached here as an Excel spreadsheet and is very much in the >>>>>> draft >>>>>> stage. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I urge one and all to cast an eye over it, correct mistakes and >>>>>> fill >>>>>> any missing info including the many games that I appologise for >>>>>> not >>>>>> including already. Im also open to persuasion about what >>>>>> constituties >>>>>> and ARG as there are likely to be some contentious inclusions. >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> ARG_Discuss mailing list >>>>>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >>>>>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> ARG_Discuss mailing list >>>>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >>>>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> ARG_Discuss mailing list >>>>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >>>>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Wendy Despain >>>> quantumcontent.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> ARG_Discuss mailing list >>>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >>>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ARG_Discuss mailing list >>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ARG_Discuss mailing list >>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >> > > > Wendy Despain > quantumcontent.com > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From bclark at gmdstudios.com Fri Apr 3 15:05:17 2009 From: bclark at gmdstudios.com (Brian Clark) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 15:05:17 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] the umbrella (was RE: arg list) In-Reply-To: <590206F9-EFCE-4B9D-877B-2CFB67A900A6@mirlandano.com> References: <17c74a00b3c9cd22cb5f9cb17cae9957.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> <590206F9-EFCE-4B9D-877B-2CFB67A900A6@mirlandano.com> Message-ID: <1E956073112143A78FC89A57270AEC4E@Tricorder> I get that, Brooke ... here's my fear: when you ask people to rate on particular scales, the scales end up being the construct. I think what I'm suggesting starts more subjective: your gut knows (for you) what projects kind of go together. Having a body of info on those is great and certainly facilitates. But the question "what do you call this clump versus that clump" comes after the intuitive arrangement, rather than being the construct of the scales. Close to mind mapping yes, Wendy, but I guess it is the proximity to each other I'm suggesting might be insightful, rather than just "are connected by". Hi! Here's this rough skeleton of projects and a list of ten others ... where would you put them on this visual chart so that projects that are more like each other are closer together than they are with ones that are more different? I could imagine at the database end, that might look like "mean distance" and standard deviation for each project to each project. My gut thinks if we did that with enough people and transposed the results into one big chart, we'd find that MOST people's graphs were fairly similar, and that the places where there was the most diversity might look like important conceptual differences. Can I get a pony too, while we're at it? -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Brooke Thompson Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 2:29 PM To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] the umbrella (was RE: arg list) I don't know of any of the existing bits and pieces, but I know that there was a pen & paper effort at this during ARGfest SF and there are bits and pieces from that on unfiction. Based on that work and thinking of the discussion of Sean Stacey's Chaotic Fiction, I believe the way to go about it would be a system that let people rate experience on several scales and then aggregates that data into a chart. If you just want to have an index card where people can throw context down on things - the argdb wiki would work for that... just add more bullet points under each game. The difficulty, of course, is in actually seeing and relating the games to each other as they're in an alphabetical list. However, that information could be put into the ARGdb database and then visualized in some manner - it would, of course, need to be standardized in some way to actually work. All that said, if someone wants to create such a system or manner, I'd gladly give some smart programmer sort access to the ARGdb site & database to help facilitate such a project. I mean we might as well take advantage of the information that we've already gathered. I think it would be relatively trivial to add a bit onto each game page that would let visitors rank the game on various things (such as interactivity, platform types, etc) and from that several different charts could be created for a variety of uses. On Apr 3, 2009, at 1:26 PM, Brian Clark wrote: > Forking this off of "the arg list" discussion, but can't keep my > fingers out > of the semantical. Making lists and timelines and databases is > great, but it > immediately begs the definition question: what counts as an element > and what > doesn't is intrinsic in the discussion. > > Personally, I'm past the point of worrying about the semantic > parsing of > ARG. I'm far more interested in the concept of the meta-definition, > the > umbrella that contains the most stuff that most people thing are > "ish" and > how we label that across the whole variety. > > I wonder if we wouldn't be served to think about that, and see if we > can let > descriptive taxonomy guide the definition. If could envision the > "ultimate > solution" the physical equivalent would be -- write down each ARG on > a card, > and tape them up to the wall in a way where "more alike" are closer > to each > in location than "more different" projects are. Go ahead and throw > as much > context as necessary on the cards. Where are the clots of similar > projects > and what are their defining traits (and thus, what else is "near" to > them)? > Which of the clots fall into "ARG" category, how many into > "significantly > ARG-like" and how many into the "tends not to be high-related to > ARGness"? > > Then I think, "there's a dissertation worth of dialog" to make that > happen, > even with the right tool. Does any of the existing efforts (wiki on > through) > potentially serve as platform adaptable to that kind of "clustering" > approach? > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org > ] On > Behalf Of Steve Peters > Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 12:26 PM > To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG > Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list > > It seems to me we're trying to reinvent the wheel here, to a certain > extent. > While the main interface to ARGDB was never really finished, there is > already a WIKI there that is a really good start. I think it would > be much > more valuable to have actual WIKI space that can give detailed > information > about an ARG than to just have a spreadsheet somewhere. > > Anyway, the framework's there at http://wiki.argdb.com. It should be > pretty > simple to just start editing away and insert info about the games > we've > worked on. It'd be nice if someone came up with a standard credit/ > info box > format for each game, but beyond that, folks can just start editing > away! > > And if there's anyone with programming chops, take a look at the > main ARGDB > interface. It's a really good start and if finished would basically > be an > IMDB for ARGs if anyone wanted to take it on. :) > > Steve > > > -------------------- > Steve Peters > Founder, No Mimes Media > http://www.nomimes.com > mobile: 818.422.4898 > steve at nomimes.com > twitter: vpisteve > 34.183042,-118.281252 > > > On 4/3/09 9:08 AM, "Wendy Despain" wrote: > >> >> Well, I decided not to add the projects I've been involved in, >> because >> although I call them ARGs, nobody else can agree on what to call >> them. >> They resemble the Lost Experience and Regenesis the most, I suppose. >> >> But they happened prior to 2001, and it seemed inappropriate to put >> them first on this list ordered by date. >> >> What agony this kind of list-building is! >> >> Wendy Despain >> quantumcontent.com >> >> >> On Fri, April 3, 2009 9:03 am, Brian Clark wrote: >>>> I don't know, and it's probably a matter of semantics, whether >>>> you want to distinguish "ARG" from "ARE". >>> >>> We've done such a great job of answering the "what is an ARG" >>> question >>> that >>> we're totally qualified to add "what is an ARE" and "how is an ARE >>> different >>> than ARG" to the pile. >>> >>> My personal opinion, we lack an umbrella term. Makes it hard for me >>> parse >>> out meaning in statements like: >>> >>>> one could argue "games" like Cloverfield were AREs as well >>> >>> I think that starts to overextend the ARE label as I understand it. >>> There >>> was the "hope by the fans" of an E at the end of the AR (which in >>> this >>> case >>> was just F.) >>> >>> But I can imagine some umbrella that would contain it. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org >>> [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On >>> Behalf Of David Flor >>> Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 11:54 AM >>> To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG >>> Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list >>> >>> Added the ones I was involved with or are directly familiar with >>> (White Island, for example), as well as went through and edited some >>> that I was very familiar with as a player. >>> >>> I don't know, and it's probably a matter of semantics, whether you >>> want to distinguish "ARG" from "ARE". The Lost Experience was >>> self-labeled as an "ARE", and one could argue "games" like >>> Cloverfield >>> were AREs as well. >>> >>> And do you want to list ARGs that have been announced but not >>> launched >>> yet, such as our own "Rachel's Walk"? >>> >>> Tnx & Rgds... >>> David Flor >>> Darklight Interactive >>> "Omne ignotum pro magnifico" >>> >>> On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 6:04 AM, wrote: >>>> I've shared a document with you called "arg list": >>>> >>> > http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pE0znztln2kmQruQyplrzeA&inv=arg_discu >>> ss at igda.org >>>> >>>> It's not an attachment -- it's stored online at Google Docs. To >>>> open >>>> this >>>> document, just click the link above. >>>> >>>> As mentioned earlier this week, I have begun compiling spreadsheet >>>> of >>>> ARG's towards getting a listing of the all the brands that have >>>> worked >>>> with ARGs as well as a listing of independent ARG's for ARGology. >>>> Its attached here as an Excel spreadsheet and is very much in the >>>> draft >>>> stage. >>>> >>>> >>>> I urge one and all to cast an eye over it, correct mistakes and >>>> fill >>>> any missing info including the many games that I appologise for not >>>> including already. Im also open to persuasion about what >>>> constituties >>>> and ARG as there are likely to be some contentious inclusions. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> ARG_Discuss mailing list >>>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >>>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ARG_Discuss mailing list >>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ARG_Discuss mailing list >>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >>> >> >> >> Wendy Despain >> quantumcontent.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From annika at sics.se Fri Apr 3 15:12:40 2009 From: annika at sics.se (Annika Waern) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 15:12:40 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] arg list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <932A963AB4C045A68EF745BC8DF7FF58@sics.se> I must admit that I am a bit confused about the core definition even, especially after hearing Frank Lanz talk about Chain Factor at GDC. Annika Waern -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Brian Clark Sent: den 3 april 2009 12:04 To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list >I don't know, and it's probably a matter of semantics, whether >you want to distinguish "ARG" from "ARE". We've done such a great job of answering the "what is an ARG" question that we're totally qualified to add "what is an ARE" and "how is an ARE different than ARG" to the pile. My personal opinion, we lack an umbrella term. Makes it hard for me parse out meaning in statements like: > one could argue "games" like Cloverfield were AREs as well I think that starts to overextend the ARE label as I understand it. There was the "hope by the fans" of an E at the end of the AR (which in this case was just F.) But I can imagine some umbrella that would contain it. -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of David Flor Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 11:54 AM To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list Added the ones I was involved with or are directly familiar with (White Island, for example), as well as went through and edited some that I was very familiar with as a player. I don't know, and it's probably a matter of semantics, whether you want to distinguish "ARG" from "ARE". The Lost Experience was self-labeled as an "ARE", and one could argue "games" like Cloverfield were AREs as well. And do you want to list ARGs that have been announced but not launched yet, such as our own "Rachel's Walk"? Tnx & Rgds... David Flor Darklight Interactive "Omne ignotum pro magnifico" On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 6:04 AM, wrote: > I've shared a document with you called "arg list": > http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pE0znztln2kmQruQyplrzeA&inv=arg_discu ss at igda.org > > It's not an attachment -- it's stored online at Google Docs. To open this > document, just click the link above. > > As mentioned earlier this week, I have begun compiling spreadsheet of > ARG's towards getting a listing of the all the brands that have worked > with ARGs as well as a listing of independent ARG's for ARGology. > Its attached here as an Excel spreadsheet and is very much in the draft > stage. > > > I urge one and all to cast an eye over it, correct mistakes and fill > any missing info including the many games that I appologise for not > including already. Im also open to persuasion about what constituties > and ARG as there are likely to be some contentious inclusions. > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From bclark at gmdstudios.com Fri Apr 3 15:47:41 2009 From: bclark at gmdstudios.com (Brian Clark) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 15:47:41 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] arg list In-Reply-To: <932A963AB4C045A68EF745BC8DF7FF58@sics.se> References: <932A963AB4C045A68EF745BC8DF7FF58@sics.se> Message-ID: <4EF046C5C9584225BA29D50866FE6649@Tricorder> Annika, here's the best short historical "how we got here" that I can muster: many of the people involved are here in this list and will undoubtedly critique my over-simplifications. The term "alternate reality game" was coined by fans in an attempt to describe the style of game Lockjaw was -- that group, in turn, drew much of their inspiration from having been players of "The Beast" (but this happened, this naming, after that experience was done.) After that, many others here got "drawn into this crap" (j/k) by having segments of that fan base (especially at Unforums.com) latch on to other work that was "like that". You're could here many similar stories from some of us about the first time we got labeled "puppetmasters" despite having prior, similar work. So another functional description of the definition "anything that survives Unfiction's scrutiny of being similar". I'm arguing all of the prior in deference to the community of fans and indies: genres tends to get named by the fans, not the creators. But it means there never was a formal definition, only an ongoing debate and redefinition. As a developer, I'm more fascinated by the variety of models than the need for them to all fit one definition ... but, it would be nice to let ARG maintain some traditional definition and an acknowledge some larger umbrella term. And ponies would be nice too :) -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Annika Waern Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 3:13 PM To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list I must admit that I am a bit confused about the core definition even, especially after hearing Frank Lanz talk about Chain Factor at GDC. Annika Waern -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Brian Clark Sent: den 3 april 2009 12:04 To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list >I don't know, and it's probably a matter of semantics, whether >you want to distinguish "ARG" from "ARE". We've done such a great job of answering the "what is an ARG" question that we're totally qualified to add "what is an ARE" and "how is an ARE different than ARG" to the pile. My personal opinion, we lack an umbrella term. Makes it hard for me parse out meaning in statements like: > one could argue "games" like Cloverfield were AREs as well I think that starts to overextend the ARE label as I understand it. There was the "hope by the fans" of an E at the end of the AR (which in this case was just F.) But I can imagine some umbrella that would contain it. -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of David Flor Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 11:54 AM To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list Added the ones I was involved with or are directly familiar with (White Island, for example), as well as went through and edited some that I was very familiar with as a player. I don't know, and it's probably a matter of semantics, whether you want to distinguish "ARG" from "ARE". The Lost Experience was self-labeled as an "ARE", and one could argue "games" like Cloverfield were AREs as well. And do you want to list ARGs that have been announced but not launched yet, such as our own "Rachel's Walk"? Tnx & Rgds... David Flor Darklight Interactive "Omne ignotum pro magnifico" On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 6:04 AM, wrote: > I've shared a document with you called "arg list": > http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pE0znztln2kmQruQyplrzeA&inv=arg_discu ss at igda.org > > It's not an attachment -- it's stored online at Google Docs. To open this > document, just click the link above. > > As mentioned earlier this week, I have begun compiling spreadsheet of > ARG's towards getting a listing of the all the brands that have worked > with ARGs as well as a listing of independent ARG's for ARGology. > Its attached here as an Excel spreadsheet and is very much in the draft > stage. > > > I urge one and all to cast an eye over it, correct mistakes and fill > any missing info including the many games that I appologise for not > including already. Im also open to persuasion about what constituties > and ARG as there are likely to be some contentious inclusions. > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From vladiweb at googlemail.com Fri Apr 3 16:28:11 2009 From: vladiweb at googlemail.com (Vladimir Alexeev) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 22:28:11 +0200 Subject: [arg_discuss] arg list (Vlad Alex) Message-ID: The idea of a complete ARG list is really great - not only for memories of people, who participated on it (as players or pms), but also as reference in the case of ARG intertextualities. So a question I have: do we can update the list with grassroots, and even with grassroot ARGs which were collapsed or never ended? I ask because there were many great ARGs (or AREs, or even semi-ARGs) which were never ended, but the experience while of they were running is important for the main ARG history. I don't want to make this list to a chaotic collection of everything flashed in Unfiction Rumors since the beginning, but do we have some categories and rules to be oriented in this database? I'll be very glad to help with this list, especially with German ARGs and also with some international ARGs which weren't famous, but became a cult (like the ARGs by a puppetmaster named XIII - "Conspiracy08, VITD" etc). And one more question: do we can input our own ARGs (we were a PMs of) in this list? Best regards to everybody Vlad Alex aka Merzmensch kosmopol From dflor71 at gmail.com Fri Apr 3 16:31:46 2009 From: dflor71 at gmail.com (David Flor) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 16:31:46 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] arg list (Vlad Alex) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50b4b0580904031331n7170139p712c9749c6fa0c6f@mail.gmail.com> "And one more question: do we can input our own ARGs (we were a PMs of) in this list?" Hope so.. 'cause I already added my own. :) On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 4:28 PM, Vladimir Alexeev wrote: > The idea of a complete ARG list is really great - not only for memories of > people, who participated on it (as players or pms), but also as reference in > the case of ARG intertextualities. > > So a question I have: do we can update the list with grassroots, and even > with grassroot ARGs which were collapsed or never ended? I ask because there > were many great ARGs (or AREs, or even semi-ARGs) which were never ended, > but the experience while of they were running is important for the main ARG > history. > > I don't want to make this list to a chaotic collection of everything flashed > in Unfiction Rumors since the beginning, but do we have some categories and > rules to be oriented in this database? > > I'll be very glad to help with this list, especially with German ARGs and > also with some international ARGs which weren't famous, but became a cult > (like the ARGs by a puppetmaster named XIII - "Conspiracy08, VITD" etc). > > And one more question: do we can input our own ARGs (we were a PMs of) in > this list? > > Best regards to everybody > Vlad Alex aka Merzmensch kosmopol > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > From brooke at mirlandano.com Fri Apr 3 16:31:48 2009 From: brooke at mirlandano.com (Brooke Thompson) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 16:31:48 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] the umbrella (was RE: arg list) In-Reply-To: <1E956073112143A78FC89A57270AEC4E@Tricorder> References: <17c74a00b3c9cd22cb5f9cb17cae9957.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> <590206F9-EFCE-4B9D-877B-2CFB67A900A6@mirlandano.com> <1E956073112143A78FC89A57270AEC4E@Tricorder> Message-ID: <6252FB94-EA50-4302-AF10-872470E49A5D@mirlandano.com> So, it sounds like you want the end user to have greater control with how they're grouped (based on their gut and not on some computer algorithm or aggregated tags or what have you). The challenge here is the number of experiences - if we're looking at the "umbrella" and trying to figure things out from there, we're probably looking at a base of somewhere near ~1k experiences that could be grouped. I'm basing that on the idea that the ARGdb wiki contains ~150 games and is probably missing twice that - and those are all games that will be fairly closely bunched under some sort of ARG like label. Once you throw in the related sorts of things (such as Ruby's Bequest, sf0, etc) we're looking at many times that. So, in order to avoid making assumptions on games, you need to either greatly reduce the number of games (to those which you've got enough information on to make an informed judgment) or greatly increase the number of people that have input on the system. Both approaches have their merits, but I'd be more inclined to go with more people and more input than less. At that point, you're looking at scales, user created tags, or (perhaps ideally) a combination of the two. (and suddenly I feel like I'm back in school working on my thesis...) On Apr 3, 2009, at 3:05 PM, Brian Clark wrote: > I get that, Brooke ... here's my fear: when you ask people to rate on > particular scales, the scales end up being the construct. I think > what I'm > suggesting starts more subjective: your gut knows (for you) what > projects > kind of go together. Having a body of info on those is great and > certainly > facilitates. But the question "what do you call this clump versus that > clump" comes after the intuitive arrangement, rather than being the > construct of the scales. > > Close to mind mapping yes, Wendy, but I guess it is the proximity to > each > other I'm suggesting might be insightful, rather than just "are > connected > by". Hi! Here's this rough skeleton of projects and a list of ten > others ... > where would you put them on this visual chart so that projects that > are more > like each other are closer together than they are with ones that are > more > different? > > I could imagine at the database end, that might look like "mean > distance" > and standard deviation for each project to each project. My gut > thinks if we > did that with enough people and transposed the results into one big > chart, > we'd find that MOST people's graphs were fairly similar, and that > the places > where there was the most diversity might look like important > conceptual > differences. > > Can I get a pony too, while we're at it? > > -----Original Message----- > From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org > ] On > Behalf Of Brooke Thompson > Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 2:29 PM > To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG > Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] the umbrella (was RE: arg list) > > I don't know of any of the existing bits and pieces, but I know that > there was a pen & paper effort at this during ARGfest SF and there are > bits and pieces from that on unfiction. Based on that work and > thinking of the discussion of Sean Stacey's Chaotic Fiction, I believe > the way to go about it would be a system that let people rate > experience on several scales and then aggregates that data into a > chart. > > If you just want to have an index card where people can throw context > down on things - the argdb wiki would work for that... just add more > bullet points under each game. The difficulty, of course, is in > actually seeing and relating the games to each other as they're in an > alphabetical list. However, that information could be put into the > ARGdb database and then visualized in some manner - it would, of > course, need to be standardized in some way to actually work. > > All that said, if someone wants to create such a system or manner, I'd > gladly give some smart programmer sort access to the ARGdb site & > database to help facilitate such a project. I mean we might as well > take advantage of the information that we've already gathered. I think > it would be relatively trivial to add a bit onto each game page that > would let visitors rank the game on various things (such as > interactivity, platform types, etc) and from that several different > charts could be created for a variety of uses. > > > > > On Apr 3, 2009, at 1:26 PM, Brian Clark wrote: > >> Forking this off of "the arg list" discussion, but can't keep my >> fingers out >> of the semantical. Making lists and timelines and databases is >> great, but it >> immediately begs the definition question: what counts as an element >> and what >> doesn't is intrinsic in the discussion. >> >> Personally, I'm past the point of worrying about the semantic >> parsing of >> ARG. I'm far more interested in the concept of the meta-definition, >> the >> umbrella that contains the most stuff that most people thing are >> "ish" and >> how we label that across the whole variety. >> >> I wonder if we wouldn't be served to think about that, and see if we >> can let >> descriptive taxonomy guide the definition. If could envision the >> "ultimate >> solution" the physical equivalent would be -- write down each ARG on >> a card, >> and tape them up to the wall in a way where "more alike" are closer >> to each >> in location than "more different" projects are. Go ahead and throw >> as much >> context as necessary on the cards. Where are the clots of similar >> projects >> and what are their defining traits (and thus, what else is "near" to >> them)? >> Which of the clots fall into "ARG" category, how many into >> "significantly >> ARG-like" and how many into the "tends not to be high-related to >> ARGness"? >> >> Then I think, "there's a dissertation worth of dialog" to make that >> happen, >> even with the right tool. Does any of the existing efforts (wiki on >> through) >> potentially serve as platform adaptable to that kind of "clustering" >> approach? >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org >> ] On >> Behalf Of Steve Peters >> Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 12:26 PM >> To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG >> Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list >> >> It seems to me we're trying to reinvent the wheel here, to a certain >> extent. >> While the main interface to ARGDB was never really finished, there is >> already a WIKI there that is a really good start. I think it would >> be much >> more valuable to have actual WIKI space that can give detailed >> information >> about an ARG than to just have a spreadsheet somewhere. >> >> Anyway, the framework's there at http://wiki.argdb.com. It should be >> pretty >> simple to just start editing away and insert info about the games >> we've >> worked on. It'd be nice if someone came up with a standard credit/ >> info box >> format for each game, but beyond that, folks can just start editing >> away! >> >> And if there's anyone with programming chops, take a look at the >> main ARGDB >> interface. It's a really good start and if finished would basically >> be an >> IMDB for ARGs if anyone wanted to take it on. :) >> >> Steve >> >> >> -------------------- >> Steve Peters >> Founder, No Mimes Media >> http://www.nomimes.com >> mobile: 818.422.4898 >> steve at nomimes.com >> twitter: vpisteve >> 34.183042,-118.281252 >> >> >> On 4/3/09 9:08 AM, "Wendy Despain" wrote: >> >>> >>> Well, I decided not to add the projects I've been involved in, >>> because >>> although I call them ARGs, nobody else can agree on what to call >>> them. >>> They resemble the Lost Experience and Regenesis the most, I suppose. >>> >>> But they happened prior to 2001, and it seemed inappropriate to put >>> them first on this list ordered by date. >>> >>> What agony this kind of list-building is! >>> >>> Wendy Despain >>> quantumcontent.com >>> >>> >>> On Fri, April 3, 2009 9:03 am, Brian Clark wrote: >>>>> I don't know, and it's probably a matter of semantics, whether >>>>> you want to distinguish "ARG" from "ARE". >>>> >>>> We've done such a great job of answering the "what is an ARG" >>>> question >>>> that >>>> we're totally qualified to add "what is an ARE" and "how is an ARE >>>> different >>>> than ARG" to the pile. >>>> >>>> My personal opinion, we lack an umbrella term. Makes it hard for me >>>> parse >>>> out meaning in statements like: >>>> >>>>> one could argue "games" like Cloverfield were AREs as well >>>> >>>> I think that starts to overextend the ARE label as I understand it. >>>> There >>>> was the "hope by the fans" of an E at the end of the AR (which in >>>> this >>>> case >>>> was just F.) >>>> >>>> But I can imagine some umbrella that would contain it. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org >>>> [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On >>>> Behalf Of David Flor >>>> Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 11:54 AM >>>> To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG >>>> Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list >>>> >>>> Added the ones I was involved with or are directly familiar with >>>> (White Island, for example), as well as went through and edited >>>> some >>>> that I was very familiar with as a player. >>>> >>>> I don't know, and it's probably a matter of semantics, whether you >>>> want to distinguish "ARG" from "ARE". The Lost Experience was >>>> self-labeled as an "ARE", and one could argue "games" like >>>> Cloverfield >>>> were AREs as well. >>>> >>>> And do you want to list ARGs that have been announced but not >>>> launched >>>> yet, such as our own "Rachel's Walk"? >>>> >>>> Tnx & Rgds... >>>> David Flor >>>> Darklight Interactive >>>> "Omne ignotum pro magnifico" >>>> >>>> On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 6:04 AM, wrote: >>>>> I've shared a document with you called "arg list": >>>>> >>>> >> > http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pE0znztln2kmQruQyplrzeA&inv=arg_discu >>>> ss at igda.org >>>>> >>>>> It's not an attachment -- it's stored online at Google Docs. To >>>>> open >>>>> this >>>>> document, just click the link above. >>>>> >>>>> As mentioned earlier this week, I have begun compiling spreadsheet >>>>> of >>>>> ARG's towards getting a listing of the all the brands that have >>>>> worked >>>>> with ARGs as well as a listing of independent ARG's for ARGology. >>>>> Its attached here as an Excel spreadsheet and is very much in the >>>>> draft >>>>> stage. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I urge one and all to cast an eye over it, correct mistakes and >>>>> fill >>>>> any missing info including the many games that I appologise for >>>>> not >>>>> including already. Im also open to persuasion about what >>>>> constituties >>>>> and ARG as there are likely to be some contentious inclusions. >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> ARG_Discuss mailing list >>>>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >>>>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> ARG_Discuss mailing list >>>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >>>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> ARG_Discuss mailing list >>>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >>>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >>>> >>> >>> >>> Wendy Despain >>> quantumcontent.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ARG_Discuss mailing list >>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From brooke at mirlandano.com Fri Apr 3 16:37:05 2009 From: brooke at mirlandano.com (Brooke Thompson) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 16:37:05 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] arg list (Vlad Alex) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ARGdb includes all sorts of games: games created independently, games that reached a conclusion, games that promoted something, whatever. There are several different fields for that sort of information included in the database. It's set up that anyone with certain powers can add & edit games to the database once an admin approves them. Users, of course, can select which games they have played and add their reviews, rate the game, etc. On Apr 3, 2009, at 4:28 PM, Vladimir Alexeev wrote: > The idea of a complete ARG list is really great - not only for > memories of > people, who participated on it (as players or pms), but also as > reference in > the case of ARG intertextualities. > > So a question I have: do we can update the list with grassroots, and > even > with grassroot ARGs which were collapsed or never ended? I ask > because there > were many great ARGs (or AREs, or even semi-ARGs) which were never > ended, > but the experience while of they were running is important for the > main ARG > history. > > I don't want to make this list to a chaotic collection of everything > flashed > in Unfiction Rumors since the beginning, but do we have some > categories and > rules to be oriented in this database? > > I'll be very glad to help with this list, especially with German > ARGs and > also with some international ARGs which weren't famous, but became a > cult > (like the ARGs by a puppetmaster named XIII - "Conspiracy08, VITD" > etc). > > And one more question: do we can input our own ARGs (we were a PMs > of) in > this list? > > Best regards to everybody > Vlad Alex aka Merzmensch kosmopol > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From bclark at gmdstudios.com Fri Apr 3 16:43:11 2009 From: bclark at gmdstudios.com (Brian Clark) Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 16:43:11 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] the umbrella (was RE: arg list) In-Reply-To: <6252FB94-EA50-4302-AF10-872470E49A5D@mirlandano.com> References: <17c74a00b3c9cd22cb5f9cb17cae9957.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com><590206F9-EFCE-4B9D-877B-2CFB67A900A6@mirlandano.com><1E956073112143A78FC89A57270AEC4E@Tricorder> <6252FB94-EA50-4302-AF10-872470E49A5D@mirlandano.com> Message-ID: <394140A5D4CA4B5B800701476C83CA6E@Tricorder> There were no promises of ponies?!? I guess to me, it feels like your logic assumes the net output is "attributes for each ARG" and what I'm suggesting is grouping "similar ones together" and then having the messy debate about what those groupings say. I'm not discounting the benefits of having a database of projects, just that it begs the question "what goes in and what doesn't" and we know what kissing that buzzsaw is like. -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Brooke Thompson Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 4:32 PM To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] the umbrella (was RE: arg list) So, it sounds like you want the end user to have greater control with how they're grouped (based on their gut and not on some computer algorithm or aggregated tags or what have you). The challenge here is the number of experiences - if we're looking at the "umbrella" and trying to figure things out from there, we're probably looking at a base of somewhere near ~1k experiences that could be grouped. I'm basing that on the idea that the ARGdb wiki contains ~150 games and is probably missing twice that - and those are all games that will be fairly closely bunched under some sort of ARG like label. Once you throw in the related sorts of things (such as Ruby's Bequest, sf0, etc) we're looking at many times that. So, in order to avoid making assumptions on games, you need to either greatly reduce the number of games (to those which you've got enough information on to make an informed judgment) or greatly increase the number of people that have input on the system. Both approaches have their merits, but I'd be more inclined to go with more people and more input than less. At that point, you're looking at scales, user created tags, or (perhaps ideally) a combination of the two. (and suddenly I feel like I'm back in school working on my thesis...) On Apr 3, 2009, at 3:05 PM, Brian Clark wrote: > I get that, Brooke ... here's my fear: when you ask people to rate on > particular scales, the scales end up being the construct. I think > what I'm > suggesting starts more subjective: your gut knows (for you) what > projects > kind of go together. Having a body of info on those is great and > certainly > facilitates. But the question "what do you call this clump versus that > clump" comes after the intuitive arrangement, rather than being the > construct of the scales. > > Close to mind mapping yes, Wendy, but I guess it is the proximity to > each > other I'm suggesting might be insightful, rather than just "are > connected > by". Hi! Here's this rough skeleton of projects and a list of ten > others ... > where would you put them on this visual chart so that projects that > are more > like each other are closer together than they are with ones that are > more > different? > > I could imagine at the database end, that might look like "mean > distance" > and standard deviation for each project to each project. My gut > thinks if we > did that with enough people and transposed the results into one big > chart, > we'd find that MOST people's graphs were fairly similar, and that > the places > where there was the most diversity might look like important > conceptual > differences. > > Can I get a pony too, while we're at it? > > -----Original Message----- > From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org > ] On > Behalf Of Brooke Thompson > Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 2:29 PM > To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG > Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] the umbrella (was RE: arg list) > > I don't know of any of the existing bits and pieces, but I know that > there was a pen & paper effort at this during ARGfest SF and there are > bits and pieces from that on unfiction. Based on that work and > thinking of the discussion of Sean Stacey's Chaotic Fiction, I believe > the way to go about it would be a system that let people rate > experience on several scales and then aggregates that data into a > chart. > > If you just want to have an index card where people can throw context > down on things - the argdb wiki would work for that... just add more > bullet points under each game. The difficulty, of course, is in > actually seeing and relating the games to each other as they're in an > alphabetical list. However, that information could be put into the > ARGdb database and then visualized in some manner - it would, of > course, need to be standardized in some way to actually work. > > All that said, if someone wants to create such a system or manner, I'd > gladly give some smart programmer sort access to the ARGdb site & > database to help facilitate such a project. I mean we might as well > take advantage of the information that we've already gathered. I think > it would be relatively trivial to add a bit onto each game page that > would let visitors rank the game on various things (such as > interactivity, platform types, etc) and from that several different > charts could be created for a variety of uses. > > > > > On Apr 3, 2009, at 1:26 PM, Brian Clark wrote: > >> Forking this off of "the arg list" discussion, but can't keep my >> fingers out >> of the semantical. Making lists and timelines and databases is >> great, but it >> immediately begs the definition question: what counts as an element >> and what >> doesn't is intrinsic in the discussion. >> >> Personally, I'm past the point of worrying about the semantic >> parsing of >> ARG. I'm far more interested in the concept of the meta-definition, >> the >> umbrella that contains the most stuff that most people thing are >> "ish" and >> how we label that across the whole variety. >> >> I wonder if we wouldn't be served to think about that, and see if we >> can let >> descriptive taxonomy guide the definition. If could envision the >> "ultimate >> solution" the physical equivalent would be -- write down each ARG on >> a card, >> and tape them up to the wall in a way where "more alike" are closer >> to each >> in location than "more different" projects are. Go ahead and throw >> as much >> context as necessary on the cards. Where are the clots of similar >> projects >> and what are their defining traits (and thus, what else is "near" to >> them)? >> Which of the clots fall into "ARG" category, how many into >> "significantly >> ARG-like" and how many into the "tends not to be high-related to >> ARGness"? >> >> Then I think, "there's a dissertation worth of dialog" to make that >> happen, >> even with the right tool. Does any of the existing efforts (wiki on >> through) >> potentially serve as platform adaptable to that kind of "clustering" >> approach? >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org >> ] On >> Behalf Of Steve Peters >> Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 12:26 PM >> To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG >> Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list >> >> It seems to me we're trying to reinvent the wheel here, to a certain >> extent. >> While the main interface to ARGDB was never really finished, there is >> already a WIKI there that is a really good start. I think it would >> be much >> more valuable to have actual WIKI space that can give detailed >> information >> about an ARG than to just have a spreadsheet somewhere. >> >> Anyway, the framework's there at http://wiki.argdb.com. It should be >> pretty >> simple to just start editing away and insert info about the games >> we've >> worked on. It'd be nice if someone came up with a standard credit/ >> info box >> format for each game, but beyond that, folks can just start editing >> away! >> >> And if there's anyone with programming chops, take a look at the >> main ARGDB >> interface. It's a really good start and if finished would basically >> be an >> IMDB for ARGs if anyone wanted to take it on. :) >> >> Steve >> >> >> -------------------- >> Steve Peters >> Founder, No Mimes Media >> http://www.nomimes.com >> mobile: 818.422.4898 >> steve at nomimes.com >> twitter: vpisteve >> 34.183042,-118.281252 >> >> >> On 4/3/09 9:08 AM, "Wendy Despain" wrote: >> >>> >>> Well, I decided not to add the projects I've been involved in, >>> because >>> although I call them ARGs, nobody else can agree on what to call >>> them. >>> They resemble the Lost Experience and Regenesis the most, I suppose. >>> >>> But they happened prior to 2001, and it seemed inappropriate to put >>> them first on this list ordered by date. >>> >>> What agony this kind of list-building is! >>> >>> Wendy Despain >>> quantumcontent.com >>> >>> >>> On Fri, April 3, 2009 9:03 am, Brian Clark wrote: >>>>> I don't know, and it's probably a matter of semantics, whether >>>>> you want to distinguish "ARG" from "ARE". >>>> >>>> We've done such a great job of answering the "what is an ARG" >>>> question >>>> that >>>> we're totally qualified to add "what is an ARE" and "how is an ARE >>>> different >>>> than ARG" to the pile. >>>> >>>> My personal opinion, we lack an umbrella term. Makes it hard for me >>>> parse >>>> out meaning in statements like: >>>> >>>>> one could argue "games" like Cloverfield were AREs as well >>>> >>>> I think that starts to overextend the ARE label as I understand it. >>>> There >>>> was the "hope by the fans" of an E at the end of the AR (which in >>>> this >>>> case >>>> was just F.) >>>> >>>> But I can imagine some umbrella that would contain it. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org >>>> [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On >>>> Behalf Of David Flor >>>> Sent: Friday, April 03, 2009 11:54 AM >>>> To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG >>>> Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list >>>> >>>> Added the ones I was involved with or are directly familiar with >>>> (White Island, for example), as well as went through and edited >>>> some >>>> that I was very familiar with as a player. >>>> >>>> I don't know, and it's probably a matter of semantics, whether you >>>> want to distinguish "ARG" from "ARE". The Lost Experience was >>>> self-labeled as an "ARE", and one could argue "games" like >>>> Cloverfield >>>> were AREs as well. >>>> >>>> And do you want to list ARGs that have been announced but not >>>> launched >>>> yet, such as our own "Rachel's Walk"? >>>> >>>> Tnx & Rgds... >>>> David Flor >>>> Darklight Interactive >>>> "Omne ignotum pro magnifico" >>>> >>>> On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 6:04 AM, wrote: >>>>> I've shared a document with you called "arg list": >>>>> >>>> >> > http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pE0znztln2kmQruQyplrzeA&inv=arg_discu >>>> ss at igda.org >>>>> >>>>> It's not an attachment -- it's stored online at Google Docs. To >>>>> open >>>>> this >>>>> document, just click the link above. >>>>> >>>>> As mentioned earlier this week, I have begun compiling spreadsheet >>>>> of >>>>> ARG's towards getting a listing of the all the brands that have >>>>> worked >>>>> with ARGs as well as a listing of independent ARG's for ARGology. >>>>> Its attached here as an Excel spreadsheet and is very much in the >>>>> draft >>>>> stage. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I urge one and all to cast an eye over it, correct mistakes and >>>>> fill >>>>> any missing info including the many games that I appologise for >>>>> not >>>>> including already. Im also open to persuasion about what >>>>> constituties >>>>> and ARG as there are likely to be some contentious inclusions. >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> ARG_Discuss mailing list >>>>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >>>>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> ARG_Discuss mailing list >>>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >>>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> ARG_Discuss mailing list >>>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >>>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >>>> >>> >>> >>> Wendy Despain >>> quantumcontent.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ARG_Discuss mailing list >>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From morbus at disobey.com Sun Apr 5 20:22:00 2009 From: morbus at disobey.com (Morbus Iff) Date: Sun, 05 Apr 2009 20:22:00 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Professor turns online course into role-playing game Message-ID: <49D94B28.2050100@disobey.com> http://chronicle.com/wiredcampus/article/3490/professor-turns-his-online-course-into-a-role-playing-game A few months old, but new to me. -- Morbus Iff ( you shouldn't have come here ) Technical: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/au/779 Enjoy: http://www.disobey.com/ and http://www.videounderbelly.com/ aim: akaMorbus / skype: morbusiff / icq: 2927491 / jabber.org: morbus From cdena at cross-mediaentertainment.com Mon Apr 6 08:17:39 2009 From: cdena at cross-mediaentertainment.com (Christy Dena) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 22:17:39 +1000 Subject: [arg_discuss] arg list Message-ID: <20090406121741.YRZU13025.nschwotgx03p.mx.bigpond.com@HPPIE> Hello Hugh: Well I don't think you expected to have created such controversy! I can see you've done a lot of work in putting that listing together. Fantastic. :) I actually don't think we need to figure out some clustering system for this resource (elsewhere, yes, that would be interesting). The intention behind the Brands resource is to show there are many companies/brands that have commissioned ARGs. What is important therefore is the company/artist and producer or service and how many ARGs they have commissioned. Microsoft, for instance, have commissioned ARGs on several occasions. It is not a listing of ARGs for media properties (eg: A.I.) but the companies that commissioned them (eg: Microsoft). The aim is to provide information for companies who are considering commissioning an ARG. A quick scan through some of my files reveals some big names around the world: McDonalds; Microsoft (Game Studio); NBC; CBS; AudiUSA; Bungie Studios; MTV Brazil; Superinteressante; Deutsche Telekom; EMI Germany; RTL (German Television Broadcaster); Droemer Knaur Verlag (German publisher); Microsoft Germany; Nokia; NBC Universal; Fantasporto (Portugal); Swedish Television (SVT); ABC; Yahoo!7; BBC; Sony; Activision; Electronic Arts; ABC Family Television; General Motors. So, rather than list ALL branded entertainment ARGs (and waddle into the murky water of what is an ARG), I suggest a page that purports to only offering a sampling. The same with the independent ARGs. I think a sample listing of independent ARGs like Sammeeeees, Eldritch Errors, Chasing the Wish and their sequels, Lockjaw, Metacortechs and so on would be enough. The aim of this resource is not to offer a comprehensive listing of independent ARGs (there are other great resources out there as we know!), but to show how ARGs exist outside of branded entertainment...and that there are high-quality, successful and artistically diverse independent ARGs out there! So, what about an arbitrary number, say 15?, of independents that are representative of older and more recent ARGs. Suggestions? This is how I would recommend progressing. Hugh, how do you feel about this approach? I would work with you to assist with the sampling...and whomever else would like to be involved! We could utilize (and cite) yours and existing ARG databases and go from there. Wohoo! Thanks Hugh for taking the time! Best, Christy -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of marcus.helm at gmail.com Sent: Friday, 3 April 2009 21:04 To: arg_discuss at igda.org Subject: [arg_discuss] arg list I've shared a document with you called "arg list": http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pE0znztln2kmQruQyplrzeA&inv=arg_discu ss at igda.org It's not an attachment -- it's stored online at Google Docs. To open this document, just click the link above. As mentioned earlier this week, I have begun compiling spreadsheet of ARG's towards getting a listing of the all the brands that have worked with ARGs as well as a listing of independent ARG's for ARGology. Its attached here as an Excel spreadsheet and is very much in the draft stage. I urge one and all to cast an eye over it, correct mistakes and fill any missing info including the many games that I appologise for not including already. Im also open to persuasion about what constituties and ARG as there are likely to be some contentious inclusions. _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From bclark at gmdstudios.com Mon Apr 6 09:20:32 2009 From: bclark at gmdstudios.com (Brian Clark) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 09:20:32 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] arg list In-Reply-To: <20090406121741.YRZU13025.nschwotgx03p.mx.bigpond.com@HPPIE> References: <20090406121741.YRZU13025.nschwotgx03p.mx.bigpond.com@HPPIE> Message-ID: <701AD1D53029437FA036D2DA5D2987A5@Tricorder> Not to take away from Hugh's list at all, but I personally think we're once again dodging what "it is" so you'll end up with "a list of brands that have commissioned something that someone thought was close enough to being an ARG." If: Christy: "The aim is to provide information for companies who are considering commissioning an ARG." How does this help accomplish that? -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Christy Dena Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 8:18 AM To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list Hello Hugh: Well I don't think you expected to have created such controversy! I can see you've done a lot of work in putting that listing together. Fantastic. :) I actually don't think we need to figure out some clustering system for this resource (elsewhere, yes, that would be interesting). The intention behind the Brands resource is to show there are many companies/brands that have commissioned ARGs. What is important therefore is the company/artist and producer or service and how many ARGs they have commissioned. Microsoft, for instance, have commissioned ARGs on several occasions. It is not a listing of ARGs for media properties (eg: A.I.) but the companies that commissioned them (eg: Microsoft). The aim is to provide information for companies who are considering commissioning an ARG. A quick scan through some of my files reveals some big names around the world: McDonalds; Microsoft (Game Studio); NBC; CBS; AudiUSA; Bungie Studios; MTV Brazil; Superinteressante; Deutsche Telekom; EMI Germany; RTL (German Television Broadcaster); Droemer Knaur Verlag (German publisher); Microsoft Germany; Nokia; NBC Universal; Fantasporto (Portugal); Swedish Television (SVT); ABC; Yahoo!7; BBC; Sony; Activision; Electronic Arts; ABC Family Television; General Motors. So, rather than list ALL branded entertainment ARGs (and waddle into the murky water of what is an ARG), I suggest a page that purports to only offering a sampling. The same with the independent ARGs. I think a sample listing of independent ARGs like Sammeeeees, Eldritch Errors, Chasing the Wish and their sequels, Lockjaw, Metacortechs and so on would be enough. The aim of this resource is not to offer a comprehensive listing of independent ARGs (there are other great resources out there as we know!), but to show how ARGs exist outside of branded entertainment...and that there are high-quality, successful and artistically diverse independent ARGs out there! So, what about an arbitrary number, say 15?, of independents that are representative of older and more recent ARGs. Suggestions? This is how I would recommend progressing. Hugh, how do you feel about this approach? I would work with you to assist with the sampling...and whomever else would like to be involved! We could utilize (and cite) yours and existing ARG databases and go from there. Wohoo! Thanks Hugh for taking the time! Best, Christy -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of marcus.helm at gmail.com Sent: Friday, 3 April 2009 21:04 To: arg_discuss at igda.org Subject: [arg_discuss] arg list I've shared a document with you called "arg list": http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pE0znztln2kmQruQyplrzeA&inv=arg_discu ss at igda.org It's not an attachment -- it's stored online at Google Docs. To open this document, just click the link above. As mentioned earlier this week, I have begun compiling spreadsheet of ARG's towards getting a listing of the all the brands that have worked with ARGs as well as a listing of independent ARG's for ARGology. Its attached here as an Excel spreadsheet and is very much in the draft stage. I urge one and all to cast an eye over it, correct mistakes and fill any missing info including the many games that I appologise for not including already. Im also open to persuasion about what constituties and ARG as there are likely to be some contentious inclusions. _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From brooke at mirlandano.com Mon Apr 6 09:25:46 2009 From: brooke at mirlandano.com (Brooke Thompson) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 09:25:46 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] ARGdb Message-ID: I've got to admit that I'm happy that this discussion happened as it's reawakened interest in ARGdb - which I've always felt was an underutilized resource. So, now that the interest is there, I've gotta ask... What would make a comprehensive database of ARGs useful to you? What sorts of information would you look for? What would you want to get out of it? How can ARGdb become a useful resource for you? Feel free to ping me off-list if you'd prefer. From cdena at cross-mediaentertainment.com Mon Apr 6 09:57:23 2009 From: cdena at cross-mediaentertainment.com (Christy Dena) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 23:57:23 +1000 Subject: [arg_discuss] arg list In-Reply-To: <701AD1D53029437FA036D2DA5D2987A5@Tricorder> Message-ID: <20090406135724.CBPR13025.nschwotgx03p.mx.bigpond.com@HPPIE> Hey Brian, Perhaps I wasn't clear. I don't think we should use the list of all the projects Hugh listed. Instead, I'm suggesting a selection of those on Hugh's list and elsewhere. Although there is a lot of disagreement about what qualifies as an ARG, I think we're in agreement that Hugh's list includes non-ARG projects (Hugh was most likely making a broad sweep for the first draft). I'm trying to be diplomatic here and suggesting that a curated listing may do a better job of avoiding the 'what is an ARG' debate. That discussion is important -- and has been a good reawakener, as Brooke says, about the ARGdb -- but a definition of an ARG does not need to be determined for these resources. Best, Christy -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Brian Clark Sent: Monday, 6 April 2009 23:21 To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list Not to take away from Hugh's list at all, but I personally think we're once again dodging what "it is" so you'll end up with "a list of brands that have commissioned something that someone thought was close enough to being an ARG." If: Christy: "The aim is to provide information for companies who are considering commissioning an ARG." How does this help accomplish that? -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Christy Dena Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 8:18 AM To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list Hello Hugh: Well I don't think you expected to have created such controversy! I can see you've done a lot of work in putting that listing together. Fantastic. :) I actually don't think we need to figure out some clustering system for this resource (elsewhere, yes, that would be interesting). The intention behind the Brands resource is to show there are many companies/brands that have commissioned ARGs. What is important therefore is the company/artist and producer or service and how many ARGs they have commissioned. Microsoft, for instance, have commissioned ARGs on several occasions. It is not a listing of ARGs for media properties (eg: A.I.) but the companies that commissioned them (eg: Microsoft). The aim is to provide information for companies who are considering commissioning an ARG. A quick scan through some of my files reveals some big names around the world: McDonalds; Microsoft (Game Studio); NBC; CBS; AudiUSA; Bungie Studios; MTV Brazil; Superinteressante; Deutsche Telekom; EMI Germany; RTL (German Television Broadcaster); Droemer Knaur Verlag (German publisher); Microsoft Germany; Nokia; NBC Universal; Fantasporto (Portugal); Swedish Television (SVT); ABC; Yahoo!7; BBC; Sony; Activision; Electronic Arts; ABC Family Television; General Motors. So, rather than list ALL branded entertainment ARGs (and waddle into the murky water of what is an ARG), I suggest a page that purports to only offering a sampling. The same with the independent ARGs. I think a sample listing of independent ARGs like Sammeeeees, Eldritch Errors, Chasing the Wish and their sequels, Lockjaw, Metacortechs and so on would be enough. The aim of this resource is not to offer a comprehensive listing of independent ARGs (there are other great resources out there as we know!), but to show how ARGs exist outside of branded entertainment...and that there are high-quality, successful and artistically diverse independent ARGs out there! So, what about an arbitrary number, say 15?, of independents that are representative of older and more recent ARGs. Suggestions? This is how I would recommend progressing. Hugh, how do you feel about this approach? I would work with you to assist with the sampling...and whomever else would like to be involved! We could utilize (and cite) yours and existing ARG databases and go from there. Wohoo! Thanks Hugh for taking the time! Best, Christy -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of marcus.helm at gmail.com Sent: Friday, 3 April 2009 21:04 To: arg_discuss at igda.org Subject: [arg_discuss] arg list I've shared a document with you called "arg list": http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pE0znztln2kmQruQyplrzeA&inv=arg_discu ss at igda.org It's not an attachment -- it's stored online at Google Docs. To open this document, just click the link above. As mentioned earlier this week, I have begun compiling spreadsheet of ARG's towards getting a listing of the all the brands that have worked with ARGs as well as a listing of independent ARG's for ARGology. Its attached here as an Excel spreadsheet and is very much in the draft stage. I urge one and all to cast an eye over it, correct mistakes and fill any missing info including the many games that I appologise for not including already. Im also open to persuasion about what constituties and ARG as there are likely to be some contentious inclusions. _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From bclark at gmdstudios.com Mon Apr 6 10:12:51 2009 From: bclark at gmdstudios.com (Brian Clark) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 10:12:51 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] arg list In-Reply-To: <20090406135724.CBPR13025.nschwotgx03p.mx.bigpond.com@HPPIE> References: <701AD1D53029437FA036D2DA5D2987A5@Tricorder> <20090406135724.CBPR13025.nschwotgx03p.mx.bigpond.com@HPPIE> Message-ID: Christy, I guess I just feel like we've been down this road before. Such lists exist or could be supplemented. It includes stuff that could stimulate debate, and doesn't include stuff that could stimulate debate, but doesn't really by itself add much to the body of published knowledge. Cristy wrote: "I'm trying to be diplomatic here and suggesting that a curated listing may do a better job of avoiding the 'what is an ARG' debate." I understand that, but then the curator is cementing the definition anyway by that curation. This is part of what has gotten us into the situation we are, IMHO, and could prove counter-productive. Instead, to me, it feels like clarity to labels is something fairly appropriate for the SIG to tackle ... and the SIG working together on something seems to also be what the SIG needs. What we need is a new way to work on that problem, rather than just another list. Brian -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Christy Dena Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 9:57 AM To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list Hey Brian, Perhaps I wasn't clear. I don't think we should use the list of all the projects Hugh listed. Instead, I'm suggesting a selection of those on Hugh's list and elsewhere. Although there is a lot of disagreement about what qualifies as an ARG, I think we're in agreement that Hugh's list includes non-ARG projects (Hugh was most likely making a broad sweep for the first draft). I'm trying to be diplomatic here and suggesting that a curated listing may do a better job of avoiding the 'what is an ARG' debate. That discussion is important -- and has been a good reawakener, as Brooke says, about the ARGdb -- but a definition of an ARG does not need to be determined for these resources. Best, Christy -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Brian Clark Sent: Monday, 6 April 2009 23:21 To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list Not to take away from Hugh's list at all, but I personally think we're once again dodging what "it is" so you'll end up with "a list of brands that have commissioned something that someone thought was close enough to being an ARG." If: Christy: "The aim is to provide information for companies who are considering commissioning an ARG." How does this help accomplish that? -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Christy Dena Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 8:18 AM To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list Hello Hugh: Well I don't think you expected to have created such controversy! I can see you've done a lot of work in putting that listing together. Fantastic. :) I actually don't think we need to figure out some clustering system for this resource (elsewhere, yes, that would be interesting). The intention behind the Brands resource is to show there are many companies/brands that have commissioned ARGs. What is important therefore is the company/artist and producer or service and how many ARGs they have commissioned. Microsoft, for instance, have commissioned ARGs on several occasions. It is not a listing of ARGs for media properties (eg: A.I.) but the companies that commissioned them (eg: Microsoft). The aim is to provide information for companies who are considering commissioning an ARG. A quick scan through some of my files reveals some big names around the world: McDonalds; Microsoft (Game Studio); NBC; CBS; AudiUSA; Bungie Studios; MTV Brazil; Superinteressante; Deutsche Telekom; EMI Germany; RTL (German Television Broadcaster); Droemer Knaur Verlag (German publisher); Microsoft Germany; Nokia; NBC Universal; Fantasporto (Portugal); Swedish Television (SVT); ABC; Yahoo!7; BBC; Sony; Activision; Electronic Arts; ABC Family Television; General Motors. So, rather than list ALL branded entertainment ARGs (and waddle into the murky water of what is an ARG), I suggest a page that purports to only offering a sampling. The same with the independent ARGs. I think a sample listing of independent ARGs like Sammeeeees, Eldritch Errors, Chasing the Wish and their sequels, Lockjaw, Metacortechs and so on would be enough. The aim of this resource is not to offer a comprehensive listing of independent ARGs (there are other great resources out there as we know!), but to show how ARGs exist outside of branded entertainment...and that there are high-quality, successful and artistically diverse independent ARGs out there! So, what about an arbitrary number, say 15?, of independents that are representative of older and more recent ARGs. Suggestions? This is how I would recommend progressing. Hugh, how do you feel about this approach? I would work with you to assist with the sampling...and whomever else would like to be involved! We could utilize (and cite) yours and existing ARG databases and go from there. Wohoo! Thanks Hugh for taking the time! Best, Christy -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of marcus.helm at gmail.com Sent: Friday, 3 April 2009 21:04 To: arg_discuss at igda.org Subject: [arg_discuss] arg list I've shared a document with you called "arg list": http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pE0znztln2kmQruQyplrzeA&inv=arg_discu ss at igda.org It's not an attachment -- it's stored online at Google Docs. To open this document, just click the link above. As mentioned earlier this week, I have begun compiling spreadsheet of ARG's towards getting a listing of the all the brands that have worked with ARGs as well as a listing of independent ARG's for ARGology. Its attached here as an Excel spreadsheet and is very much in the draft stage. I urge one and all to cast an eye over it, correct mistakes and fill any missing info including the many games that I appologise for not including already. Im also open to persuasion about what constituties and ARG as there are likely to be some contentious inclusions. _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From mmonello at campfirenyc.com Mon Apr 6 10:25:47 2009 From: mmonello at campfirenyc.com (Michael Monello) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 07:25:47 -0700 Subject: [arg_discuss] arg list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Without stepping into the definition issue, I'd like to know what is the goal of this list and who is the audience? Is it a resource to CMOs, brand managers, marketers and potential clients to show them what has done and perhaps inspire more new projects? If so, then I think a more effective approach would be a self-guided, nicely designed PowerPoint presentation that is uploaded, properly tagged, and attributed to the ARG Sig to SlideShare. Something that a forward thinking member of a brand team might be able to present to others would be more effective at the above goal, but I don't know the goal of this exercise. Before we even get into what the content is, we should probably look at who the audience is and then determine what the format/content should be. If I had clarity on at least that level, I feel like I might be able to contribute and I imagine others would as well. Best, -Mike On 4/6/09 10:12 AM, "Brian Clark" wrote: Christy, I guess I just feel like we've been down this road before. Such lists exist or could be supplemented. It includes stuff that could stimulate debate, and doesn't include stuff that could stimulate debate, but doesn't really by itself add much to the body of published knowledge. Cristy wrote: "I'm trying to be diplomatic here and suggesting that a curated listing may do a better job of avoiding the 'what is an ARG' debate." I understand that, but then the curator is cementing the definition anyway by that curation. This is part of what has gotten us into the situation we are, IMHO, and could prove counter-productive. Instead, to me, it feels like clarity to labels is something fairly appropriate for the SIG to tackle ... and the SIG working together on something seems to also be what the SIG needs. What we need is a new way to work on that problem, rather than just another list. Brian -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Christy Dena Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 9:57 AM To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list Hey Brian, Perhaps I wasn't clear. I don't think we should use the list of all the projects Hugh listed. Instead, I'm suggesting a selection of those on Hugh's list and elsewhere. Although there is a lot of disagreement about what qualifies as an ARG, I think we're in agreement that Hugh's list includes non-ARG projects (Hugh was most likely making a broad sweep for the first draft). I'm trying to be diplomatic here and suggesting that a curated listing may do a better job of avoiding the 'what is an ARG' debate. That discussion is important -- and has been a good reawakener, as Brooke says, about the ARGdb -- but a definition of an ARG does not need to be determined for these resources. Best, Christy -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Brian Clark Sent: Monday, 6 April 2009 23:21 To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list Not to take away from Hugh's list at all, but I personally think we're once again dodging what "it is" so you'll end up with "a list of brands that have commissioned something that someone thought was close enough to being an ARG." If: Christy: "The aim is to provide information for companies who are considering commissioning an ARG." How does this help accomplish that? -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Christy Dena Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 8:18 AM To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list Hello Hugh: Well I don't think you expected to have created such controversy! I can see you've done a lot of work in putting that listing together. Fantastic. :) I actually don't think we need to figure out some clustering system for this resource (elsewhere, yes, that would be interesting). The intention behind the Brands resource is to show there are many companies/brands that have commissioned ARGs. What is important therefore is the company/artist and producer or service and how many ARGs they have commissioned. Microsoft, for instance, have commissioned ARGs on several occasions. It is not a listing of ARGs for media properties (eg: A.I.) but the companies that commissioned them (eg: Microsoft). The aim is to provide information for companies who are considering commissioning an ARG. A quick scan through some of my files reveals some big names around the world: McDonalds; Microsoft (Game Studio); NBC; CBS; AudiUSA; Bungie Studios; MTV Brazil; Superinteressante; Deutsche Telekom; EMI Germany; RTL (German Television Broadcaster); Droemer Knaur Verlag (German publisher); Microsoft Germany; Nokia; NBC Universal; Fantasporto (Portugal); Swedish Television (SVT); ABC; Yahoo!7; BBC; Sony; Activision; Electronic Arts; ABC Family Television; General Motors. So, rather than list ALL branded entertainment ARGs (and waddle into the murky water of what is an ARG), I suggest a page that purports to only offering a sampling. The same with the independent ARGs. I think a sample listing of independent ARGs like Sammeeeees, Eldritch Errors, Chasing the Wish and their sequels, Lockjaw, Metacortechs and so on would be enough. The aim of this resource is not to offer a comprehensive listing of independent ARGs (there are other great resources out there as we know!), but to show how ARGs exist outside of branded entertainment...and that there are high-quality, successful and artistically diverse independent ARGs out there! So, what about an arbitrary number, say 15?, of independents that are representative of older and more recent ARGs. Suggestions? This is how I would recommend progressing. Hugh, how do you feel about this approach? I would work with you to assist with the sampling...and whomever else would like to be involved! We could utilize (and cite) yours and existing ARG databases and go from there. Wohoo! Thanks Hugh for taking the time! Best, Christy -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of marcus.helm at gmail.com Sent: Friday, 3 April 2009 21:04 To: arg_discuss at igda.org Subject: [arg_discuss] arg list I've shared a document with you called "arg list": http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pE0znztln2kmQruQyplrzeA&inv=arg_discu ss at igda.org It's not an attachment -- it's stored online at Google Docs. To open this document, just click the link above. As mentioned earlier this week, I have begun compiling spreadsheet of ARG's towards getting a listing of the all the brands that have worked with ARGs as well as a listing of independent ARG's for ARGology. Its attached here as an Excel spreadsheet and is very much in the draft stage. I urge one and all to cast an eye over it, correct mistakes and fill any missing info including the many games that I appologise for not including already. Im also open to persuasion about what constituties and ARG as there are likely to be some contentious inclusions. _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss --- Mike Monello Partner, Campfire 62 White Street, 3E New York, NY 10013 212-612-9600 http://www.campfirenyc.com From dan at sixtostart.com Mon Apr 6 10:29:06 2009 From: dan at sixtostart.com (Dan Hon) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 15:29:06 +0100 Subject: [arg_discuss] arg list In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7339A821-199E-47C2-8FE3-60EF842CCE29@sixtostart.com> At first blush, the IGDA is for game developers, which is probably one reason why we're having problems. -- Dan Hon, CEO, Six to Start m: +44 7870 600 828 t: +44 33 3340 7490, f: +44 33 3340 7494 On 6 Apr 2009, at 15:25, Michael Monello wrote: > Without stepping into the definition issue, I'd like to know what is > the goal of this list and who is the audience? Is it a resource to > CMOs, brand managers, marketers and potential clients to show them > what has done and perhaps inspire more new projects? If so, then I > think a more effective approach would be a self-guided, nicely > designed PowerPoint presentation that is uploaded, properly tagged, > and attributed to the ARG Sig to SlideShare. Something that a > forward thinking member of a brand team might be able to present to > others would be more effective at the above goal, but I don't know > the goal of this exercise. > > Before we even get into what the content is, we should probably look > at who the audience is and then determine what the format/content > should be. If I had clarity on at least that level, I feel like I > might be able to contribute and I imagine others would as well. > > Best, > > -Mike > > On 4/6/09 10:12 AM, "Brian Clark" wrote: > > Christy, I guess I just feel like we've been down this road before. > Such > lists exist or could be supplemented. It includes stuff that could > stimulate > debate, and doesn't include stuff that could stimulate debate, but > doesn't > really by itself add much to the body of published knowledge. > > Cristy wrote: "I'm trying to be diplomatic here and suggesting that a > curated listing may do a better job of avoiding the 'what is an ARG' > debate." > > I understand that, but then the curator is cementing the definition > anyway > by that curation. This is part of what has gotten us into the > situation we > are, IMHO, and could prove counter-productive. Instead, to me, it > feels like > clarity to labels is something fairly appropriate for the SIG to > tackle ... > and the SIG working together on something seems to also be what the > SIG > needs. What we need is a new way to work on that problem, rather > than just > another list. > > > Brian > > -----Original Message----- > From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org > ] On > Behalf Of Christy Dena > Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 9:57 AM > To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' > Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list > > Hey Brian, > > Perhaps I wasn't clear. I don't think we should use the list of all > the > projects Hugh listed. Instead, I'm suggesting a selection of those > on Hugh's > list and elsewhere. Although there is a lot of disagreement about what > qualifies as an ARG, I think we're in agreement that Hugh's list > includes > non-ARG projects (Hugh was most likely making a broad sweep for the > first > draft). > > I'm trying to be diplomatic here and suggesting that a curated > listing may > do a better job of avoiding the 'what is an ARG' debate. That > discussion is > important -- and has been a good reawakener, as Brooke says, about > the ARGdb > -- but a definition of an ARG does not need to be determined for these > resources. > > Best, > Christy > > -----Original Message----- > From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org > ] On > Behalf Of Brian Clark > Sent: Monday, 6 April 2009 23:21 > To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' > Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list > > Not to take away from Hugh's list at all, but I personally think > we're once > again dodging what "it is" so you'll end up with "a list of brands > that have > commissioned something that someone thought was close enough to > being an > ARG." > > If: > > Christy: "The aim is to provide information for companies who are > considering commissioning an ARG." > > How does this help accomplish that? > > -----Original Message----- > From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org > ] On > Behalf Of Christy Dena > Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 8:18 AM > To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' > Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list > > > Hello Hugh: Well I don't think you expected to have created such > controversy! I can see you've done a lot of work in putting that > listing > together. Fantastic. :) > > I actually don't think we need to figure out some clustering system > for this > resource (elsewhere, yes, that would be interesting). The intention > behind > the Brands resource is to show there are many companies/brands that > have > commissioned ARGs. What is important therefore is the company/artist > and > producer or service and how many ARGs they have commissioned. > Microsoft, for > instance, have commissioned ARGs on several occasions. It is not a > listing > of ARGs for media properties (eg: A.I.) but the companies that > commissioned > them (eg: Microsoft). The aim is to provide information for > companies who > are considering commissioning an ARG. > > A quick scan through some of my files reveals some big names around > the > world: McDonalds; Microsoft (Game Studio); NBC; CBS; AudiUSA; Bungie > Studios; MTV Brazil; Superinteressante; Deutsche Telekom; EMI > Germany; RTL > (German Television Broadcaster); Droemer Knaur Verlag (German > publisher); > Microsoft Germany; Nokia; NBC Universal; Fantasporto (Portugal); > Swedish > Television (SVT); ABC; Yahoo!7; BBC; Sony; Activision; Electronic > Arts; ABC > Family Television; General Motors. > > So, rather than list ALL branded entertainment ARGs (and waddle into > the > murky water of what is an ARG), I suggest a page that purports to only > offering a sampling. > > The same with the independent ARGs. I think a sample listing of > independent > ARGs like Sammeeeees, Eldritch Errors, Chasing the Wish and their > sequels, > Lockjaw, Metacortechs and so on would be enough. The aim of this > resource is > not to offer a comprehensive listing of independent ARGs (there are > other > great resources out there as we know!), but to show how ARGs exist > outside > of branded entertainment...and that there are high-quality, > successful and > artistically diverse independent ARGs out there! So, what about an > arbitrary > number, say 15?, of independents that are representative of older > and more > recent ARGs. Suggestions? > > This is how I would recommend progressing. > > Hugh, how do you feel about this approach? I would work with you to > assist > with the sampling...and whomever else would like to be involved! We > could > utilize (and cite) yours and existing ARG databases and go from there. > > Wohoo! Thanks Hugh for taking the time! > > Best, > Christy > > -----Original Message----- > From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org > ] On > Behalf Of marcus.helm at gmail.com > Sent: Friday, 3 April 2009 21:04 > To: arg_discuss at igda.org > Subject: [arg_discuss] arg list > > I've shared a document with you called "arg list": > http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pE0znztln2kmQruQyplrzeA&inv=arg_discu > ss at igda.org > > It's not an attachment -- it's stored online at Google Docs. To open > this > document, just click the link above. > > As mentioned earlier this week, I have begun compiling spreadsheet of > ARG's towards getting a listing of the all the brands that have worked > with ARGs as well as a listing of independent ARG's for ARGology. > Its attached here as an Excel spreadsheet and is very much in the > draft > stage. > > > I urge one and all to cast an eye over it, correct mistakes and fill > any missing info including the many games that I appologise for not > including already. Im also open to persuasion about what constituties > and ARG as there are likely to be some contentious inclusions. > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > > > --- > Mike Monello > Partner, Campfire > 62 White Street, 3E > New York, NY 10013 > 212-612-9600 > http://www.campfirenyc.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From bclark at gmdstudios.com Mon Apr 6 10:46:59 2009 From: bclark at gmdstudios.com (Brian Clark) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 10:46:59 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] arg list In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F4543DC6EDF4EBEA55D3CA5DC897356@Tricorder> I share that perspective, Mike: who it is intended for seems key, but it also seems like the SIG could just choose. My gut suggests the intended audience is probably "people who aren't in the SIG" but narrowing it from there is a smart first task. -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Michael Monello Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 10:26 AM To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list Without stepping into the definition issue, I'd like to know what is the goal of this list and who is the audience? Is it a resource to CMOs, brand managers, marketers and potential clients to show them what has done and perhaps inspire more new projects? If so, then I think a more effective approach would be a self-guided, nicely designed PowerPoint presentation that is uploaded, properly tagged, and attributed to the ARG Sig to SlideShare. Something that a forward thinking member of a brand team might be able to present to others would be more effective at the above goal, but I don't know the goal of this exercise. Before we even get into what the content is, we should probably look at who the audience is and then determine what the format/content should be. If I had clarity on at least that level, I feel like I might be able to contribute and I imagine others would as well. Best, -Mike On 4/6/09 10:12 AM, "Brian Clark" wrote: Christy, I guess I just feel like we've been down this road before. Such lists exist or could be supplemented. It includes stuff that could stimulate debate, and doesn't include stuff that could stimulate debate, but doesn't really by itself add much to the body of published knowledge. Cristy wrote: "I'm trying to be diplomatic here and suggesting that a curated listing may do a better job of avoiding the 'what is an ARG' debate." I understand that, but then the curator is cementing the definition anyway by that curation. This is part of what has gotten us into the situation we are, IMHO, and could prove counter-productive. Instead, to me, it feels like clarity to labels is something fairly appropriate for the SIG to tackle ... and the SIG working together on something seems to also be what the SIG needs. What we need is a new way to work on that problem, rather than just another list. Brian -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Christy Dena Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 9:57 AM To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list Hey Brian, Perhaps I wasn't clear. I don't think we should use the list of all the projects Hugh listed. Instead, I'm suggesting a selection of those on Hugh's list and elsewhere. Although there is a lot of disagreement about what qualifies as an ARG, I think we're in agreement that Hugh's list includes non-ARG projects (Hugh was most likely making a broad sweep for the first draft). I'm trying to be diplomatic here and suggesting that a curated listing may do a better job of avoiding the 'what is an ARG' debate. That discussion is important -- and has been a good reawakener, as Brooke says, about the ARGdb -- but a definition of an ARG does not need to be determined for these resources. Best, Christy -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Brian Clark Sent: Monday, 6 April 2009 23:21 To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list Not to take away from Hugh's list at all, but I personally think we're once again dodging what "it is" so you'll end up with "a list of brands that have commissioned something that someone thought was close enough to being an ARG." If: Christy: "The aim is to provide information for companies who are considering commissioning an ARG." How does this help accomplish that? -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Christy Dena Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 8:18 AM To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list Hello Hugh: Well I don't think you expected to have created such controversy! I can see you've done a lot of work in putting that listing together. Fantastic. :) I actually don't think we need to figure out some clustering system for this resource (elsewhere, yes, that would be interesting). The intention behind the Brands resource is to show there are many companies/brands that have commissioned ARGs. What is important therefore is the company/artist and producer or service and how many ARGs they have commissioned. Microsoft, for instance, have commissioned ARGs on several occasions. It is not a listing of ARGs for media properties (eg: A.I.) but the companies that commissioned them (eg: Microsoft). The aim is to provide information for companies who are considering commissioning an ARG. A quick scan through some of my files reveals some big names around the world: McDonalds; Microsoft (Game Studio); NBC; CBS; AudiUSA; Bungie Studios; MTV Brazil; Superinteressante; Deutsche Telekom; EMI Germany; RTL (German Television Broadcaster); Droemer Knaur Verlag (German publisher); Microsoft Germany; Nokia; NBC Universal; Fantasporto (Portugal); Swedish Television (SVT); ABC; Yahoo!7; BBC; Sony; Activision; Electronic Arts; ABC Family Television; General Motors. So, rather than list ALL branded entertainment ARGs (and waddle into the murky water of what is an ARG), I suggest a page that purports to only offering a sampling. The same with the independent ARGs. I think a sample listing of independent ARGs like Sammeeeees, Eldritch Errors, Chasing the Wish and their sequels, Lockjaw, Metacortechs and so on would be enough. The aim of this resource is not to offer a comprehensive listing of independent ARGs (there are other great resources out there as we know!), but to show how ARGs exist outside of branded entertainment...and that there are high-quality, successful and artistically diverse independent ARGs out there! So, what about an arbitrary number, say 15?, of independents that are representative of older and more recent ARGs. Suggestions? This is how I would recommend progressing. Hugh, how do you feel about this approach? I would work with you to assist with the sampling...and whomever else would like to be involved! We could utilize (and cite) yours and existing ARG databases and go from there. Wohoo! Thanks Hugh for taking the time! Best, Christy -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of marcus.helm at gmail.com Sent: Friday, 3 April 2009 21:04 To: arg_discuss at igda.org Subject: [arg_discuss] arg list I've shared a document with you called "arg list": http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pE0znztln2kmQruQyplrzeA&inv=arg_discu ss at igda.org It's not an attachment -- it's stored online at Google Docs. To open this document, just click the link above. As mentioned earlier this week, I have begun compiling spreadsheet of ARG's towards getting a listing of the all the brands that have worked with ARGs as well as a listing of independent ARG's for ARGology. Its attached here as an Excel spreadsheet and is very much in the draft stage. I urge one and all to cast an eye over it, correct mistakes and fill any missing info including the many games that I appologise for not including already. Im also open to persuasion about what constituties and ARG as there are likely to be some contentious inclusions. _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss --- Mike Monello Partner, Campfire 62 White Street, 3E New York, NY 10013 212-612-9600 http://www.campfirenyc.com _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From mmonello at campfirenyc.com Mon Apr 6 11:13:20 2009 From: mmonello at campfirenyc.com (Michael Monello) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 08:13:20 -0700 Subject: [arg_discuss] arg list In-Reply-To: <7339A821-199E-47C2-8FE3-60EF842CCE29@sixtostart.com> Message-ID: So does that mean everything produced by it should be for that audience? If so, then that's a nice specific audience to help narrow down what it should be, no? On 4/6/09 10:29 AM, "Dan Hon" wrote: At first blush, the IGDA is for game developers, which is probably one reason why we're having problems. -- Dan Hon, CEO, Six to Start m: +44 7870 600 828 t: +44 33 3340 7490, f: +44 33 3340 7494 On 6 Apr 2009, at 15:25, Michael Monello wrote: > Without stepping into the definition issue, I'd like to know what is > the goal of this list and who is the audience? Is it a resource to > CMOs, brand managers, marketers and potential clients to show them > what has done and perhaps inspire more new projects? If so, then I > think a more effective approach would be a self-guided, nicely > designed PowerPoint presentation that is uploaded, properly tagged, > and attributed to the ARG Sig to SlideShare. Something that a > forward thinking member of a brand team might be able to present to > others would be more effective at the above goal, but I don't know > the goal of this exercise. > > Before we even get into what the content is, we should probably look > at who the audience is and then determine what the format/content > should be. If I had clarity on at least that level, I feel like I > might be able to contribute and I imagine others would as well. > > Best, > > -Mike > > On 4/6/09 10:12 AM, "Brian Clark" wrote: > > Christy, I guess I just feel like we've been down this road before. > Such > lists exist or could be supplemented. It includes stuff that could > stimulate > debate, and doesn't include stuff that could stimulate debate, but > doesn't > really by itself add much to the body of published knowledge. > > Cristy wrote: "I'm trying to be diplomatic here and suggesting that a > curated listing may do a better job of avoiding the 'what is an ARG' > debate." > > I understand that, but then the curator is cementing the definition > anyway > by that curation. This is part of what has gotten us into the > situation we > are, IMHO, and could prove counter-productive. Instead, to me, it > feels like > clarity to labels is something fairly appropriate for the SIG to > tackle ... > and the SIG working together on something seems to also be what the > SIG > needs. What we need is a new way to work on that problem, rather > than just > another list. > > > Brian > > -----Original Message----- > From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org > ] On > Behalf Of Christy Dena > Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 9:57 AM > To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' > Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list > > Hey Brian, > > Perhaps I wasn't clear. I don't think we should use the list of all > the > projects Hugh listed. Instead, I'm suggesting a selection of those > on Hugh's > list and elsewhere. Although there is a lot of disagreement about what > qualifies as an ARG, I think we're in agreement that Hugh's list > includes > non-ARG projects (Hugh was most likely making a broad sweep for the > first > draft). > > I'm trying to be diplomatic here and suggesting that a curated > listing may > do a better job of avoiding the 'what is an ARG' debate. That > discussion is > important -- and has been a good reawakener, as Brooke says, about > the ARGdb > -- but a definition of an ARG does not need to be determined for these > resources. > > Best, > Christy > > -----Original Message----- > From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org > ] On > Behalf Of Brian Clark > Sent: Monday, 6 April 2009 23:21 > To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' > Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list > > Not to take away from Hugh's list at all, but I personally think > we're once > again dodging what "it is" so you'll end up with "a list of brands > that have > commissioned something that someone thought was close enough to > being an > ARG." > > If: > > Christy: "The aim is to provide information for companies who are > considering commissioning an ARG." > > How does this help accomplish that? > > -----Original Message----- > From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org > ] On > Behalf Of Christy Dena > Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 8:18 AM > To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' > Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list > > > Hello Hugh: Well I don't think you expected to have created such > controversy! I can see you've done a lot of work in putting that > listing > together. Fantastic. :) > > I actually don't think we need to figure out some clustering system > for this > resource (elsewhere, yes, that would be interesting). The intention > behind > the Brands resource is to show there are many companies/brands that > have > commissioned ARGs. What is important therefore is the company/artist > and > producer or service and how many ARGs they have commissioned. > Microsoft, for > instance, have commissioned ARGs on several occasions. It is not a > listing > of ARGs for media properties (eg: A.I.) but the companies that > commissioned > them (eg: Microsoft). The aim is to provide information for > companies who > are considering commissioning an ARG. > > A quick scan through some of my files reveals some big names around > the > world: McDonalds; Microsoft (Game Studio); NBC; CBS; AudiUSA; Bungie > Studios; MTV Brazil; Superinteressante; Deutsche Telekom; EMI > Germany; RTL > (German Television Broadcaster); Droemer Knaur Verlag (German > publisher); > Microsoft Germany; Nokia; NBC Universal; Fantasporto (Portugal); > Swedish > Television (SVT); ABC; Yahoo!7; BBC; Sony; Activision; Electronic > Arts; ABC > Family Television; General Motors. > > So, rather than list ALL branded entertainment ARGs (and waddle into > the > murky water of what is an ARG), I suggest a page that purports to only > offering a sampling. > > The same with the independent ARGs. I think a sample listing of > independent > ARGs like Sammeeeees, Eldritch Errors, Chasing the Wish and their > sequels, > Lockjaw, Metacortechs and so on would be enough. The aim of this > resource is > not to offer a comprehensive listing of independent ARGs (there are > other > great resources out there as we know!), but to show how ARGs exist > outside > of branded entertainment...and that there are high-quality, > successful and > artistically diverse independent ARGs out there! So, what about an > arbitrary > number, say 15?, of independents that are representative of older > and more > recent ARGs. Suggestions? > > This is how I would recommend progressing. > > Hugh, how do you feel about this approach? I would work with you to > assist > with the sampling...and whomever else would like to be involved! We > could > utilize (and cite) yours and existing ARG databases and go from there. > > Wohoo! Thanks Hugh for taking the time! > > Best, > Christy > > -----Original Message----- > From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org > ] On > Behalf Of marcus.helm at gmail.com > Sent: Friday, 3 April 2009 21:04 > To: arg_discuss at igda.org > Subject: [arg_discuss] arg list > > I've shared a document with you called "arg list": > http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pE0znztln2kmQruQyplrzeA&inv=arg_discu > ss at igda.org > > It's not an attachment -- it's stored online at Google Docs. To open > this > document, just click the link above. > > As mentioned earlier this week, I have begun compiling spreadsheet of > ARG's towards getting a listing of the all the brands that have worked > with ARGs as well as a listing of independent ARG's for ARGology. > Its attached here as an Excel spreadsheet and is very much in the > draft > stage. > > > I urge one and all to cast an eye over it, correct mistakes and fill > any missing info including the many games that I appologise for not > including already. Im also open to persuasion about what constituties > and ARG as there are likely to be some contentious inclusions. > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > > > --- > Mike Monello > Partner, Campfire > 62 White Street, 3E > New York, NY 10013 > 212-612-9600 > http://www.campfirenyc.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss --- Mike Monello Partner, Campfire 62 White Street, 3E New York, NY 10013 212-612-9600 http://www.campfirenyc.com From brooke at mirlandano.com Mon Apr 6 12:42:11 2009 From: brooke at mirlandano.com (Brooke Thompson) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 12:42:11 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] arg list In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2F3F9071-D5C3-4C12-B734-887F201F9539@mirlandano.com> Dan wrote: >At first blush, the IGDA is for game developers, which is probably one reason why we're having problems. Yes, that's true - IGDA is for game developers, but I don't see why that's an issue. Game developers often choose to create documents for and speak outside of their little circle of game developer buddies. And, beyond that, game developers often have knowledge that is useful to those outside of the game industry. A little outreach isn't such a bad thing, especially for ARGs which can have their hands in so many other cookie jars. mmmm cookies. Mike wrote: > So does that mean everything produced by it should be for that audience? If so, then that's a nice specific audience to help narrow down what it should be, no? I don't think so. Do game developers care what sort of companies have used ARGs for promotional purposes? It seems like it would be more valuable to people who are researching branded ARGs for some reason. Discussion about the list hasn't talked about the platforms used or genre of storytelling or anything of that nature - it is a list of brands and args that have promoted them. So, from my perspective, the people that would benefit from it the most are those that would be looking at those sorts of things. I know that you were attempting to look at who we wanted to make a list for and then provide the appropriate content, but it seems to me that someone's gone and gathered the content and so now it's time to figure out who would best benefit from it and frame it in that sense. So, who would benefit from such a list and how would they like to see it? Slides seem like a great way to go for the ad types out there and maybe we could have a page on ARGology that's echoes the information and points to the slides. Now, the question that seems to be hiding under both of your comments relates to the aims of the ARG SIG. According to the site, we aim... (t)o bring together a wide spectrum of experts in the state-of-the-art of the ARG genre, and to facilitate the sharing of their knowledge and promotion of ARG's to mainstream games developers. This SIG will also serve as an initial contact-point for the many organizations who have trouble knowing where to look but want to work with ARG developers both professional and hobbyist. Is that still the case and/or is that the best phrasing? On Apr 6, 2009, at 11:13 AM, Michael Monello wrote: > So does that mean everything produced by it should be for that > audience? If so, then that's a nice specific audience to help narrow > down what it should be, no? > > > On 4/6/09 10:29 AM, "Dan Hon" wrote: > > At first blush, the IGDA is for game developers, which is probably one > reason why we're having problems. > -- > Dan Hon, CEO, Six to Start > m: +44 7870 600 828 > t: +44 33 3340 7490, f: +44 33 3340 7494 > > > > > On 6 Apr 2009, at 15:25, Michael Monello wrote: > >> Without stepping into the definition issue, I'd like to know what is >> the goal of this list and who is the audience? Is it a resource to >> CMOs, brand managers, marketers and potential clients to show them >> what has done and perhaps inspire more new projects? If so, then I >> think a more effective approach would be a self-guided, nicely >> designed PowerPoint presentation that is uploaded, properly tagged, >> and attributed to the ARG Sig to SlideShare. Something that a >> forward thinking member of a brand team might be able to present to >> others would be more effective at the above goal, but I don't know >> the goal of this exercise. >> >> Before we even get into what the content is, we should probably look >> at who the audience is and then determine what the format/content >> should be. If I had clarity on at least that level, I feel like I >> might be able to contribute and I imagine others would as well. >> >> Best, >> >> -Mike >> >> On 4/6/09 10:12 AM, "Brian Clark" wrote: >> >> Christy, I guess I just feel like we've been down this road before. >> Such >> lists exist or could be supplemented. It includes stuff that could >> stimulate >> debate, and doesn't include stuff that could stimulate debate, but >> doesn't >> really by itself add much to the body of published knowledge. >> >> Cristy wrote: "I'm trying to be diplomatic here and suggesting that a >> curated listing may do a better job of avoiding the 'what is an ARG' >> debate." >> >> I understand that, but then the curator is cementing the definition >> anyway >> by that curation. This is part of what has gotten us into the >> situation we >> are, IMHO, and could prove counter-productive. Instead, to me, it >> feels like >> clarity to labels is something fairly appropriate for the SIG to >> tackle ... >> and the SIG working together on something seems to also be what the >> SIG >> needs. What we need is a new way to work on that problem, rather >> than just >> another list. >> >> >> Brian >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org >> ] On >> Behalf Of Christy Dena >> Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 9:57 AM >> To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' >> Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list >> >> Hey Brian, >> >> Perhaps I wasn't clear. I don't think we should use the list of all >> the >> projects Hugh listed. Instead, I'm suggesting a selection of those >> on Hugh's >> list and elsewhere. Although there is a lot of disagreement about >> what >> qualifies as an ARG, I think we're in agreement that Hugh's list >> includes >> non-ARG projects (Hugh was most likely making a broad sweep for the >> first >> draft). >> >> I'm trying to be diplomatic here and suggesting that a curated >> listing may >> do a better job of avoiding the 'what is an ARG' debate. That >> discussion is >> important -- and has been a good reawakener, as Brooke says, about >> the ARGdb >> -- but a definition of an ARG does not need to be determined for >> these >> resources. >> >> Best, >> Christy >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org >> ] On >> Behalf Of Brian Clark >> Sent: Monday, 6 April 2009 23:21 >> To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' >> Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list >> >> Not to take away from Hugh's list at all, but I personally think >> we're once >> again dodging what "it is" so you'll end up with "a list of brands >> that have >> commissioned something that someone thought was close enough to >> being an >> ARG." >> >> If: >> >> Christy: "The aim is to provide information for companies who are >> considering commissioning an ARG." >> >> How does this help accomplish that? >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org >> ] On >> Behalf Of Christy Dena >> Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 8:18 AM >> To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' >> Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list >> >> >> Hello Hugh: Well I don't think you expected to have created such >> controversy! I can see you've done a lot of work in putting that >> listing >> together. Fantastic. :) >> >> I actually don't think we need to figure out some clustering system >> for this >> resource (elsewhere, yes, that would be interesting). The intention >> behind >> the Brands resource is to show there are many companies/brands that >> have >> commissioned ARGs. What is important therefore is the company/artist >> and >> producer or service and how many ARGs they have commissioned. >> Microsoft, for >> instance, have commissioned ARGs on several occasions. It is not a >> listing >> of ARGs for media properties (eg: A.I.) but the companies that >> commissioned >> them (eg: Microsoft). The aim is to provide information for >> companies who >> are considering commissioning an ARG. >> >> A quick scan through some of my files reveals some big names around >> the >> world: McDonalds; Microsoft (Game Studio); NBC; CBS; AudiUSA; Bungie >> Studios; MTV Brazil; Superinteressante; Deutsche Telekom; EMI >> Germany; RTL >> (German Television Broadcaster); Droemer Knaur Verlag (German >> publisher); >> Microsoft Germany; Nokia; NBC Universal; Fantasporto (Portugal); >> Swedish >> Television (SVT); ABC; Yahoo!7; BBC; Sony; Activision; Electronic >> Arts; ABC >> Family Television; General Motors. >> >> So, rather than list ALL branded entertainment ARGs (and waddle into >> the >> murky water of what is an ARG), I suggest a page that purports to >> only >> offering a sampling. >> >> The same with the independent ARGs. I think a sample listing of >> independent >> ARGs like Sammeeeees, Eldritch Errors, Chasing the Wish and their >> sequels, >> Lockjaw, Metacortechs and so on would be enough. The aim of this >> resource is >> not to offer a comprehensive listing of independent ARGs (there are >> other >> great resources out there as we know!), but to show how ARGs exist >> outside >> of branded entertainment...and that there are high-quality, >> successful and >> artistically diverse independent ARGs out there! So, what about an >> arbitrary >> number, say 15?, of independents that are representative of older >> and more >> recent ARGs. Suggestions? >> >> This is how I would recommend progressing. >> >> Hugh, how do you feel about this approach? I would work with you to >> assist >> with the sampling...and whomever else would like to be involved! We >> could >> utilize (and cite) yours and existing ARG databases and go from >> there. >> >> Wohoo! Thanks Hugh for taking the time! >> >> Best, >> Christy >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org >> ] On >> Behalf Of marcus.helm at gmail.com >> Sent: Friday, 3 April 2009 21:04 >> To: arg_discuss at igda.org >> Subject: [arg_discuss] arg list >> >> I've shared a document with you called "arg list": >> http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pE0znztln2kmQruQyplrzeA&inv=arg_discu >> ss at igda.org >> >> It's not an attachment -- it's stored online at Google Docs. To open >> this >> document, just click the link above. >> >> As mentioned earlier this week, I have begun compiling spreadsheet of >> ARG's towards getting a listing of the all the brands that have >> worked >> with ARGs as well as a listing of independent ARG's for ARGology. >> Its attached here as an Excel spreadsheet and is very much in the >> draft >> stage. >> >> >> I urge one and all to cast an eye over it, correct mistakes and fill >> any missing info including the many games that I appologise for not >> including already. Im also open to persuasion about what constituties >> and ARG as there are likely to be some contentious inclusions. >> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >> >> >> >> --- >> Mike Monello >> Partner, Campfire >> 62 White Street, 3E >> New York, NY 10013 >> 212-612-9600 >> http://www.campfirenyc.com >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > > > --- > Mike Monello > Partner, Campfire > 62 White Street, 3E > New York, NY 10013 > 212-612-9600 > http://www.campfirenyc.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From bclark at gmdstudios.com Mon Apr 6 13:56:53 2009 From: bclark at gmdstudios.com (Brian Clark) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 13:56:53 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] arg list In-Reply-To: <2F3F9071-D5C3-4C12-B734-887F201F9539@mirlandano.com> References: <2F3F9071-D5C3-4C12-B734-887F201F9539@mirlandano.com> Message-ID: Brooke asked, "Is that still the case and/or is that the best phrasing?" WWW> (t)o bring together a wide spectrum of experts in the state-of-the-art WWW> of the ARG genre, and to facilitate the sharing of their knowledge and WWW> promotion of ARG's to mainstream games developers. So primary target market is "mainstream games developers": makes sense in the IGDA context. Then the second part reads: WWW> This SIG will also serve as an initial contact-point for the many WWW> organizations who have trouble knowing where to look but want to work WWW> with ARG developers both professional and hobbyist. That's essentially the part Mike was talking about, "the many organizations" with "trouble knowing where to look". The goals sound like this is a trade association that includes "professionals and hobbyists", eh? Brian -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Brooke Thompson Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 12:42 PM To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list Dan wrote: >At first blush, the IGDA is for game developers, which is probably one reason why we're having problems. Yes, that's true - IGDA is for game developers, but I don't see why that's an issue. Game developers often choose to create documents for and speak outside of their little circle of game developer buddies. And, beyond that, game developers often have knowledge that is useful to those outside of the game industry. A little outreach isn't such a bad thing, especially for ARGs which can have their hands in so many other cookie jars. mmmm cookies. Mike wrote: > So does that mean everything produced by it should be for that audience? If so, then that's a nice specific audience to help narrow down what it should be, no? I don't think so. Do game developers care what sort of companies have used ARGs for promotional purposes? It seems like it would be more valuable to people who are researching branded ARGs for some reason. Discussion about the list hasn't talked about the platforms used or genre of storytelling or anything of that nature - it is a list of brands and args that have promoted them. So, from my perspective, the people that would benefit from it the most are those that would be looking at those sorts of things. I know that you were attempting to look at who we wanted to make a list for and then provide the appropriate content, but it seems to me that someone's gone and gathered the content and so now it's time to figure out who would best benefit from it and frame it in that sense. So, who would benefit from such a list and how would they like to see it? Slides seem like a great way to go for the ad types out there and maybe we could have a page on ARGology that's echoes the information and points to the slides. Now, the question that seems to be hiding under both of your comments relates to the aims of the ARG SIG. According to the site, we aim... (t)o bring together a wide spectrum of experts in the state-of-the-art of the ARG genre, and to facilitate the sharing of their knowledge and promotion of ARG's to mainstream games developers. This SIG will also serve as an initial contact-point for the many organizations who have trouble knowing where to look but want to work with ARG developers both professional and hobbyist. Is that still the case and/or is that the best phrasing? On Apr 6, 2009, at 11:13 AM, Michael Monello wrote: > So does that mean everything produced by it should be for that > audience? If so, then that's a nice specific audience to help narrow > down what it should be, no? > > > On 4/6/09 10:29 AM, "Dan Hon" wrote: > > At first blush, the IGDA is for game developers, which is probably one > reason why we're having problems. > -- > Dan Hon, CEO, Six to Start > m: +44 7870 600 828 > t: +44 33 3340 7490, f: +44 33 3340 7494 > > > > > On 6 Apr 2009, at 15:25, Michael Monello wrote: > >> Without stepping into the definition issue, I'd like to know what is >> the goal of this list and who is the audience? Is it a resource to >> CMOs, brand managers, marketers and potential clients to show them >> what has done and perhaps inspire more new projects? If so, then I >> think a more effective approach would be a self-guided, nicely >> designed PowerPoint presentation that is uploaded, properly tagged, >> and attributed to the ARG Sig to SlideShare. Something that a >> forward thinking member of a brand team might be able to present to >> others would be more effective at the above goal, but I don't know >> the goal of this exercise. >> >> Before we even get into what the content is, we should probably look >> at who the audience is and then determine what the format/content >> should be. If I had clarity on at least that level, I feel like I >> might be able to contribute and I imagine others would as well. >> >> Best, >> >> -Mike >> >> On 4/6/09 10:12 AM, "Brian Clark" wrote: >> >> Christy, I guess I just feel like we've been down this road before. >> Such >> lists exist or could be supplemented. It includes stuff that could >> stimulate >> debate, and doesn't include stuff that could stimulate debate, but >> doesn't >> really by itself add much to the body of published knowledge. >> >> Cristy wrote: "I'm trying to be diplomatic here and suggesting that a >> curated listing may do a better job of avoiding the 'what is an ARG' >> debate." >> >> I understand that, but then the curator is cementing the definition >> anyway >> by that curation. This is part of what has gotten us into the >> situation we >> are, IMHO, and could prove counter-productive. Instead, to me, it >> feels like >> clarity to labels is something fairly appropriate for the SIG to >> tackle ... >> and the SIG working together on something seems to also be what the >> SIG >> needs. What we need is a new way to work on that problem, rather >> than just >> another list. >> >> >> Brian >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org >> ] On >> Behalf Of Christy Dena >> Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 9:57 AM >> To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' >> Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list >> >> Hey Brian, >> >> Perhaps I wasn't clear. I don't think we should use the list of all >> the >> projects Hugh listed. Instead, I'm suggesting a selection of those >> on Hugh's >> list and elsewhere. Although there is a lot of disagreement about >> what >> qualifies as an ARG, I think we're in agreement that Hugh's list >> includes >> non-ARG projects (Hugh was most likely making a broad sweep for the >> first >> draft). >> >> I'm trying to be diplomatic here and suggesting that a curated >> listing may >> do a better job of avoiding the 'what is an ARG' debate. That >> discussion is >> important -- and has been a good reawakener, as Brooke says, about >> the ARGdb >> -- but a definition of an ARG does not need to be determined for >> these >> resources. >> >> Best, >> Christy >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org >> ] On >> Behalf Of Brian Clark >> Sent: Monday, 6 April 2009 23:21 >> To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' >> Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list >> >> Not to take away from Hugh's list at all, but I personally think >> we're once >> again dodging what "it is" so you'll end up with "a list of brands >> that have >> commissioned something that someone thought was close enough to >> being an >> ARG." >> >> If: >> >> Christy: "The aim is to provide information for companies who are >> considering commissioning an ARG." >> >> How does this help accomplish that? >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org >> ] On >> Behalf Of Christy Dena >> Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 8:18 AM >> To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' >> Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list >> >> >> Hello Hugh: Well I don't think you expected to have created such >> controversy! I can see you've done a lot of work in putting that >> listing >> together. Fantastic. :) >> >> I actually don't think we need to figure out some clustering system >> for this >> resource (elsewhere, yes, that would be interesting). The intention >> behind >> the Brands resource is to show there are many companies/brands that >> have >> commissioned ARGs. What is important therefore is the company/artist >> and >> producer or service and how many ARGs they have commissioned. >> Microsoft, for >> instance, have commissioned ARGs on several occasions. It is not a >> listing >> of ARGs for media properties (eg: A.I.) but the companies that >> commissioned >> them (eg: Microsoft). The aim is to provide information for >> companies who >> are considering commissioning an ARG. >> >> A quick scan through some of my files reveals some big names around >> the >> world: McDonalds; Microsoft (Game Studio); NBC; CBS; AudiUSA; Bungie >> Studios; MTV Brazil; Superinteressante; Deutsche Telekom; EMI >> Germany; RTL >> (German Television Broadcaster); Droemer Knaur Verlag (German >> publisher); >> Microsoft Germany; Nokia; NBC Universal; Fantasporto (Portugal); >> Swedish >> Television (SVT); ABC; Yahoo!7; BBC; Sony; Activision; Electronic >> Arts; ABC >> Family Television; General Motors. >> >> So, rather than list ALL branded entertainment ARGs (and waddle into >> the >> murky water of what is an ARG), I suggest a page that purports to >> only >> offering a sampling. >> >> The same with the independent ARGs. I think a sample listing of >> independent >> ARGs like Sammeeeees, Eldritch Errors, Chasing the Wish and their >> sequels, >> Lockjaw, Metacortechs and so on would be enough. The aim of this >> resource is >> not to offer a comprehensive listing of independent ARGs (there are >> other >> great resources out there as we know!), but to show how ARGs exist >> outside >> of branded entertainment...and that there are high-quality, >> successful and >> artistically diverse independent ARGs out there! So, what about an >> arbitrary >> number, say 15?, of independents that are representative of older >> and more >> recent ARGs. Suggestions? >> >> This is how I would recommend progressing. >> >> Hugh, how do you feel about this approach? I would work with you to >> assist >> with the sampling...and whomever else would like to be involved! We >> could >> utilize (and cite) yours and existing ARG databases and go from >> there. >> >> Wohoo! Thanks Hugh for taking the time! >> >> Best, >> Christy >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org >> ] On >> Behalf Of marcus.helm at gmail.com >> Sent: Friday, 3 April 2009 21:04 >> To: arg_discuss at igda.org >> Subject: [arg_discuss] arg list >> >> I've shared a document with you called "arg list": >> http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pE0znztln2kmQruQyplrzeA&inv=arg_discu >> ss at igda.org >> >> It's not an attachment -- it's stored online at Google Docs. To open >> this >> document, just click the link above. >> >> As mentioned earlier this week, I have begun compiling spreadsheet of >> ARG's towards getting a listing of the all the brands that have >> worked >> with ARGs as well as a listing of independent ARG's for ARGology. >> Its attached here as an Excel spreadsheet and is very much in the >> draft >> stage. >> >> >> I urge one and all to cast an eye over it, correct mistakes and fill >> any missing info including the many games that I appologise for not >> including already. Im also open to persuasion about what constituties >> and ARG as there are likely to be some contentious inclusions. >> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >> >> >> >> --- >> Mike Monello >> Partner, Campfire >> 62 White Street, 3E >> New York, NY 10013 >> 212-612-9600 >> http://www.campfirenyc.com >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > > > --- > Mike Monello > Partner, Campfire > 62 White Street, 3E > New York, NY 10013 > 212-612-9600 > http://www.campfirenyc.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From varineq at gmail.com Mon Apr 6 14:12:26 2009 From: varineq at gmail.com (Michelle Senderhauf) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 13:12:26 -0500 Subject: [arg_discuss] arg list In-Reply-To: References: <2F3F9071-D5C3-4C12-B734-887F201F9539@mirlandano.com> Message-ID: <91EA304C-BF01-42A5-8623-03CC9C7D286D@gmail.com> I can see a need for two lists. I think alot of people do want a complete, fully detailed list like ARGdb/IMDB. I think now is the time to document the history of ARGs fully. Each year we wait, the project becomes more daunting. I think it's too big of a project for one or two people to handle though... Is ARGdb open to submissions from the public? But obviously, a list like that would be overwhelming (and therefore ineffective) if used for presentations to clients, for example. So why can't we have both? Michelle Sent from my iPhone On Apr 6, 2009, at 12:56 PM, "Brian Clark" wrote: > Brooke asked, "Is that still the case and/or is that the best > phrasing?" > > WWW> (t)o bring together a wide spectrum of experts in the state-of- > the-art > WWW> of the ARG genre, and to facilitate the sharing of their > knowledge and > WWW> promotion of ARG's to mainstream games developers. > > So primary target market is "mainstream games developers": makes > sense in > the IGDA context. Then the second part reads: > > WWW> This SIG will also serve as an initial contact-point for the many > WWW> organizations who have trouble knowing where to look but want > to work > WWW> with ARG developers both professional and hobbyist. > > That's essentially the part Mike was talking about, "the many > organizations" > with "trouble knowing where to look". The goals sound like this is a > trade > association that includes "professionals and hobbyists", eh? > > > Brian > > -----Original Message----- > From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org > ] On > Behalf Of Brooke Thompson > Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 12:42 PM > To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG > Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list > > Dan wrote: >> At first blush, the IGDA is for game developers, which is probably > one reason why we're having problems. > > Yes, that's true - IGDA is for game developers, but I don't see why > that's an issue. Game developers often choose to create documents for > and speak outside of their little circle of game developer buddies. > And, beyond that, game developers often have knowledge that is useful > to those outside of the game industry. A little outreach isn't such a > bad thing, especially for ARGs which can have their hands in so many > other cookie jars. mmmm cookies. > > > Mike wrote: >> So does that mean everything produced by it should be for that > audience? If so, then that's a nice specific audience to help narrow > down what it should be, no? > > I don't think so. Do game developers care what sort of companies have > used ARGs for promotional purposes? It seems like it would be more > valuable to people who are researching branded ARGs for some reason. > Discussion about the list hasn't talked about the platforms used or > genre of storytelling or anything of that nature - it is a list of > brands and args that have promoted them. So, from my perspective, the > people that would benefit from it the most are those that would be > looking at those sorts of things. I know that you were attempting to > look at who we wanted to make a list for and then provide the > appropriate content, but it seems to me that someone's gone and > gathered the content and so now it's time to figure out who would best > benefit from it and frame it in that sense. > > So, who would benefit from such a list and how would they like to see > it? Slides seem like a great way to go for the ad types out there and > maybe we could have a page on ARGology that's echoes the information > and points to the slides. > > > > Now, the question that seems to be hiding under both of your comments > relates to the aims of the ARG SIG. According to the site, we aim... > (t)o bring together a wide spectrum of experts in the state-of-the-art > of the ARG genre, and to facilitate the sharing of their knowledge and > promotion of ARG's to mainstream games developers. This SIG will also > serve as an initial contact-point for the many organizations who have > trouble knowing where to look but want to work with ARG developers > both professional and hobbyist. > > Is that still the case and/or is that the best phrasing? > > > > > > > > > On Apr 6, 2009, at 11:13 AM, Michael Monello wrote: > >> So does that mean everything produced by it should be for that >> audience? If so, then that's a nice specific audience to help narrow >> down what it should be, no? >> >> >> On 4/6/09 10:29 AM, "Dan Hon" wrote: >> >> At first blush, the IGDA is for game developers, which is probably >> one >> reason why we're having problems. >> -- >> Dan Hon, CEO, Six to Start >> m: +44 7870 600 828 >> t: +44 33 3340 7490, f: +44 33 3340 7494 >> >> >> >> >> On 6 Apr 2009, at 15:25, Michael Monello wrote: >> >>> Without stepping into the definition issue, I'd like to know what is >>> the goal of this list and who is the audience? Is it a resource to >>> CMOs, brand managers, marketers and potential clients to show them >>> what has done and perhaps inspire more new projects? If so, then I >>> think a more effective approach would be a self-guided, nicely >>> designed PowerPoint presentation that is uploaded, properly tagged, >>> and attributed to the ARG Sig to SlideShare. Something that a >>> forward thinking member of a brand team might be able to present to >>> others would be more effective at the above goal, but I don't know >>> the goal of this exercise. >>> >>> Before we even get into what the content is, we should probably look >>> at who the audience is and then determine what the format/content >>> should be. If I had clarity on at least that level, I feel like I >>> might be able to contribute and I imagine others would as well. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> -Mike >>> >>> On 4/6/09 10:12 AM, "Brian Clark" wrote: >>> >>> Christy, I guess I just feel like we've been down this road before. >>> Such >>> lists exist or could be supplemented. It includes stuff that could >>> stimulate >>> debate, and doesn't include stuff that could stimulate debate, but >>> doesn't >>> really by itself add much to the body of published knowledge. >>> >>> Cristy wrote: "I'm trying to be diplomatic here and suggesting >>> that a >>> curated listing may do a better job of avoiding the 'what is an ARG' >>> debate." >>> >>> I understand that, but then the curator is cementing the definition >>> anyway >>> by that curation. This is part of what has gotten us into the >>> situation we >>> are, IMHO, and could prove counter-productive. Instead, to me, it >>> feels like >>> clarity to labels is something fairly appropriate for the SIG to >>> tackle ... >>> and the SIG working together on something seems to also be what the >>> SIG >>> needs. What we need is a new way to work on that problem, rather >>> than just >>> another list. >>> >>> >>> Brian >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org >>> ] On >>> Behalf Of Christy Dena >>> Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 9:57 AM >>> To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' >>> Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list >>> >>> Hey Brian, >>> >>> Perhaps I wasn't clear. I don't think we should use the list of all >>> the >>> projects Hugh listed. Instead, I'm suggesting a selection of those >>> on Hugh's >>> list and elsewhere. Although there is a lot of disagreement about >>> what >>> qualifies as an ARG, I think we're in agreement that Hugh's list >>> includes >>> non-ARG projects (Hugh was most likely making a broad sweep for the >>> first >>> draft). >>> >>> I'm trying to be diplomatic here and suggesting that a curated >>> listing may >>> do a better job of avoiding the 'what is an ARG' debate. That >>> discussion is >>> important -- and has been a good reawakener, as Brooke says, about >>> the ARGdb >>> -- but a definition of an ARG does not need to be determined for >>> these >>> resources. >>> >>> Best, >>> Christy >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org >>> ] On >>> Behalf Of Brian Clark >>> Sent: Monday, 6 April 2009 23:21 >>> To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' >>> Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list >>> >>> Not to take away from Hugh's list at all, but I personally think >>> we're once >>> again dodging what "it is" so you'll end up with "a list of brands >>> that have >>> commissioned something that someone thought was close enough to >>> being an >>> ARG." >>> >>> If: >>> >>> Christy: "The aim is to provide information for companies who are >>> considering commissioning an ARG." >>> >>> How does this help accomplish that? >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org >>> ] On >>> Behalf Of Christy Dena >>> Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 8:18 AM >>> To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' >>> Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list >>> >>> >>> Hello Hugh: Well I don't think you expected to have created such >>> controversy! I can see you've done a lot of work in putting that >>> listing >>> together. Fantastic. :) >>> >>> I actually don't think we need to figure out some clustering system >>> for this >>> resource (elsewhere, yes, that would be interesting). The intention >>> behind >>> the Brands resource is to show there are many companies/brands that >>> have >>> commissioned ARGs. What is important therefore is the company/artist >>> and >>> producer or service and how many ARGs they have commissioned. >>> Microsoft, for >>> instance, have commissioned ARGs on several occasions. It is not a >>> listing >>> of ARGs for media properties (eg: A.I.) but the companies that >>> commissioned >>> them (eg: Microsoft). The aim is to provide information for >>> companies who >>> are considering commissioning an ARG. >>> >>> A quick scan through some of my files reveals some big names around >>> the >>> world: McDonalds; Microsoft (Game Studio); NBC; CBS; AudiUSA; Bungie >>> Studios; MTV Brazil; Superinteressante; Deutsche Telekom; EMI >>> Germany; RTL >>> (German Television Broadcaster); Droemer Knaur Verlag (German >>> publisher); >>> Microsoft Germany; Nokia; NBC Universal; Fantasporto (Portugal); >>> Swedish >>> Television (SVT); ABC; Yahoo!7; BBC; Sony; Activision; Electronic >>> Arts; ABC >>> Family Television; General Motors. >>> >>> So, rather than list ALL branded entertainment ARGs (and waddle into >>> the >>> murky water of what is an ARG), I suggest a page that purports to >>> only >>> offering a sampling. >>> >>> The same with the independent ARGs. I think a sample listing of >>> independent >>> ARGs like Sammeeeees, Eldritch Errors, Chasing the Wish and their >>> sequels, >>> Lockjaw, Metacortechs and so on would be enough. The aim of this >>> resource is >>> not to offer a comprehensive listing of independent ARGs (there are >>> other >>> great resources out there as we know!), but to show how ARGs exist >>> outside >>> of branded entertainment...and that there are high-quality, >>> successful and >>> artistically diverse independent ARGs out there! So, what about an >>> arbitrary >>> number, say 15?, of independents that are representative of older >>> and more >>> recent ARGs. Suggestions? >>> >>> This is how I would recommend progressing. >>> >>> Hugh, how do you feel about this approach? I would work with you to >>> assist >>> with the sampling...and whomever else would like to be involved! We >>> could >>> utilize (and cite) yours and existing ARG databases and go from >>> there. >>> >>> Wohoo! Thanks Hugh for taking the time! >>> >>> Best, >>> Christy >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org >>> ] On >>> Behalf Of marcus.helm at gmail.com >>> Sent: Friday, 3 April 2009 21:04 >>> To: arg_discuss at igda.org >>> Subject: [arg_discuss] arg list >>> >>> I've shared a document with you called "arg list": >>> > http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pE0znztln2kmQruQyplrzeA&inv=arg_discu >>> ss at igda.org >>> >>> It's not an attachment -- it's stored online at Google Docs. To open >>> this >>> document, just click the link above. >>> >>> As mentioned earlier this week, I have begun compiling spreadsheet >>> of >>> ARG's towards getting a listing of the all the brands that have >>> worked >>> with ARGs as well as a listing of independent ARG's for ARGology. >>> Its attached here as an Excel spreadsheet and is very much in the >>> draft >>> stage. >>> >>> >>> I urge one and all to cast an eye over it, correct mistakes and fill >>> any missing info including the many games that I appologise for not >>> including already. Im also open to persuasion about what >>> constituties >>> and ARG as there are likely to be some contentious inclusions. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ARG_Discuss mailing list >>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ARG_Discuss mailing list >>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ARG_Discuss mailing list >>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ARG_Discuss mailing list >>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ARG_Discuss mailing list >>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >>> >>> >>> >>> --- >>> Mike Monello >>> Partner, Campfire >>> 62 White Street, 3E >>> New York, NY 10013 >>> 212-612-9600 >>> http://www.campfirenyc.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ARG_Discuss mailing list >>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >> >> >> >> --- >> Mike Monello >> Partner, Campfire >> 62 White Street, 3E >> New York, NY 10013 >> 212-612-9600 >> http://www.campfirenyc.com >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From brooke at mirlandano.com Mon Apr 6 14:58:36 2009 From: brooke at mirlandano.com (Brooke Thompson) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 14:58:36 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] arg list In-Reply-To: <91EA304C-BF01-42A5-8623-03CC9C7D286D@gmail.com> References: <2F3F9071-D5C3-4C12-B734-887F201F9539@mirlandano.com> <91EA304C-BF01-42A5-8623-03CC9C7D286D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9012E353-0300-48FB-9EFC-80AB96D1A5FB@mirlandano.com> Yes. It's open to submissions. At some point there will be a more open or automated process, but for the time being, there are a couple of ways to submit info. 1) add it to the wiki: wiki.argdb.com 2) send it to us through the contact form: http://www.argdb.com/contact/ Gathering all this info is a huge task (we only have partial data on about 150 games so far). I'd very much appreciate the help in adding to the list of games, writing the summaries, gathering the links to press articles & sites, etc etc. Developers - please send me what you can. Getting it straight from you all makes it so much easier. Plus, when it comes to press and such, I know y'all follow what's written about your games a bit more obsessively than I do (though, perhaps, only a bit ;)) On Apr 6, 2009, at 2:12 PM, Michelle Senderhauf wrote: > I can see a need for two lists. I think alot of people do want a > complete, fully detailed list like ARGdb/IMDB. I think now is the > time to document the history of ARGs fully. Each year we wait, the > project becomes more daunting. I think it's too big of a project for > one or two people to handle though... Is ARGdb open to submissions > from the public? > > But obviously, a list like that would be overwhelming (and therefore > ineffective) if used for presentations to clients, for example. > > So why can't we have both? > > Michelle > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Apr 6, 2009, at 12:56 PM, "Brian Clark" > wrote: > >> Brooke asked, "Is that still the case and/or is that the best >> phrasing?" >> >> WWW> (t)o bring together a wide spectrum of experts in the state-of- >> the-art >> WWW> of the ARG genre, and to facilitate the sharing of their >> knowledge and >> WWW> promotion of ARG's to mainstream games developers. >> >> So primary target market is "mainstream games developers": makes >> sense in >> the IGDA context. Then the second part reads: >> >> WWW> This SIG will also serve as an initial contact-point for the >> many >> WWW> organizations who have trouble knowing where to look but want >> to work >> WWW> with ARG developers both professional and hobbyist. >> >> That's essentially the part Mike was talking about, "the many >> organizations" >> with "trouble knowing where to look". The goals sound like this is >> a trade >> association that includes "professionals and hobbyists", eh? >> >> >> Brian >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org >> ] On >> Behalf Of Brooke Thompson >> Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 12:42 PM >> To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG >> Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list >> >> Dan wrote: >>> At first blush, the IGDA is for game developers, which is probably >> one reason why we're having problems. >> >> Yes, that's true - IGDA is for game developers, but I don't see why >> that's an issue. Game developers often choose to create documents for >> and speak outside of their little circle of game developer buddies. >> And, beyond that, game developers often have knowledge that is useful >> to those outside of the game industry. A little outreach isn't such a >> bad thing, especially for ARGs which can have their hands in so many >> other cookie jars. mmmm cookies. >> >> >> Mike wrote: >>> So does that mean everything produced by it should be for that >> audience? If so, then that's a nice specific audience to help narrow >> down what it should be, no? >> >> I don't think so. Do game developers care what sort of companies have >> used ARGs for promotional purposes? It seems like it would be more >> valuable to people who are researching branded ARGs for some reason. >> Discussion about the list hasn't talked about the platforms used or >> genre of storytelling or anything of that nature - it is a list of >> brands and args that have promoted them. So, from my perspective, the >> people that would benefit from it the most are those that would be >> looking at those sorts of things. I know that you were attempting to >> look at who we wanted to make a list for and then provide the >> appropriate content, but it seems to me that someone's gone and >> gathered the content and so now it's time to figure out who would >> best >> benefit from it and frame it in that sense. >> >> So, who would benefit from such a list and how would they like to see >> it? Slides seem like a great way to go for the ad types out there and >> maybe we could have a page on ARGology that's echoes the information >> and points to the slides. >> >> >> >> Now, the question that seems to be hiding under both of your comments >> relates to the aims of the ARG SIG. According to the site, we aim... >> (t)o bring together a wide spectrum of experts in the state-of-the- >> art >> of the ARG genre, and to facilitate the sharing of their knowledge >> and >> promotion of ARG's to mainstream games developers. This SIG will also >> serve as an initial contact-point for the many organizations who have >> trouble knowing where to look but want to work with ARG developers >> both professional and hobbyist. >> >> Is that still the case and/or is that the best phrasing? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Apr 6, 2009, at 11:13 AM, Michael Monello wrote: >> >>> So does that mean everything produced by it should be for that >>> audience? If so, then that's a nice specific audience to help narrow >>> down what it should be, no? >>> >>> >>> On 4/6/09 10:29 AM, "Dan Hon" wrote: >>> >>> At first blush, the IGDA is for game developers, which is probably >>> one >>> reason why we're having problems. >>> -- >>> Dan Hon, CEO, Six to Start >>> m: +44 7870 600 828 >>> t: +44 33 3340 7490, f: +44 33 3340 7494 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 6 Apr 2009, at 15:25, Michael Monello wrote: >>> >>>> Without stepping into the definition issue, I'd like to know what >>>> is >>>> the goal of this list and who is the audience? Is it a resource to >>>> CMOs, brand managers, marketers and potential clients to show them >>>> what has done and perhaps inspire more new projects? If so, then I >>>> think a more effective approach would be a self-guided, nicely >>>> designed PowerPoint presentation that is uploaded, properly tagged, >>>> and attributed to the ARG Sig to SlideShare. Something that a >>>> forward thinking member of a brand team might be able to present to >>>> others would be more effective at the above goal, but I don't know >>>> the goal of this exercise. >>>> >>>> Before we even get into what the content is, we should probably >>>> look >>>> at who the audience is and then determine what the format/content >>>> should be. If I had clarity on at least that level, I feel like I >>>> might be able to contribute and I imagine others would as well. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> -Mike >>>> >>>> On 4/6/09 10:12 AM, "Brian Clark" wrote: >>>> >>>> Christy, I guess I just feel like we've been down this road before. >>>> Such >>>> lists exist or could be supplemented. It includes stuff that could >>>> stimulate >>>> debate, and doesn't include stuff that could stimulate debate, but >>>> doesn't >>>> really by itself add much to the body of published knowledge. >>>> >>>> Cristy wrote: "I'm trying to be diplomatic here and suggesting >>>> that a >>>> curated listing may do a better job of avoiding the 'what is an >>>> ARG' >>>> debate." >>>> >>>> I understand that, but then the curator is cementing the definition >>>> anyway >>>> by that curation. This is part of what has gotten us into the >>>> situation we >>>> are, IMHO, and could prove counter-productive. Instead, to me, it >>>> feels like >>>> clarity to labels is something fairly appropriate for the SIG to >>>> tackle ... >>>> and the SIG working together on something seems to also be what the >>>> SIG >>>> needs. What we need is a new way to work on that problem, rather >>>> than just >>>> another list. >>>> >>>> >>>> Brian >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org >>>> ] On >>>> Behalf Of Christy Dena >>>> Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 9:57 AM >>>> To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' >>>> Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list >>>> >>>> Hey Brian, >>>> >>>> Perhaps I wasn't clear. I don't think we should use the list of all >>>> the >>>> projects Hugh listed. Instead, I'm suggesting a selection of those >>>> on Hugh's >>>> list and elsewhere. Although there is a lot of disagreement about >>>> what >>>> qualifies as an ARG, I think we're in agreement that Hugh's list >>>> includes >>>> non-ARG projects (Hugh was most likely making a broad sweep for the >>>> first >>>> draft). >>>> >>>> I'm trying to be diplomatic here and suggesting that a curated >>>> listing may >>>> do a better job of avoiding the 'what is an ARG' debate. That >>>> discussion is >>>> important -- and has been a good reawakener, as Brooke says, about >>>> the ARGdb >>>> -- but a definition of an ARG does not need to be determined for >>>> these >>>> resources. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Christy >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org >>>> ] On >>>> Behalf Of Brian Clark >>>> Sent: Monday, 6 April 2009 23:21 >>>> To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' >>>> Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list >>>> >>>> Not to take away from Hugh's list at all, but I personally think >>>> we're once >>>> again dodging what "it is" so you'll end up with "a list of brands >>>> that have >>>> commissioned something that someone thought was close enough to >>>> being an >>>> ARG." >>>> >>>> If: >>>> >>>> Christy: "The aim is to provide information for companies who are >>>> considering commissioning an ARG." >>>> >>>> How does this help accomplish that? >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org >>>> ] On >>>> Behalf Of Christy Dena >>>> Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 8:18 AM >>>> To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' >>>> Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list >>>> >>>> >>>> Hello Hugh: Well I don't think you expected to have created such >>>> controversy! I can see you've done a lot of work in putting that >>>> listing >>>> together. Fantastic. :) >>>> >>>> I actually don't think we need to figure out some clustering system >>>> for this >>>> resource (elsewhere, yes, that would be interesting). The intention >>>> behind >>>> the Brands resource is to show there are many companies/brands that >>>> have >>>> commissioned ARGs. What is important therefore is the company/ >>>> artist >>>> and >>>> producer or service and how many ARGs they have commissioned. >>>> Microsoft, for >>>> instance, have commissioned ARGs on several occasions. It is not a >>>> listing >>>> of ARGs for media properties (eg: A.I.) but the companies that >>>> commissioned >>>> them (eg: Microsoft). The aim is to provide information for >>>> companies who >>>> are considering commissioning an ARG. >>>> >>>> A quick scan through some of my files reveals some big names around >>>> the >>>> world: McDonalds; Microsoft (Game Studio); NBC; CBS; AudiUSA; >>>> Bungie >>>> Studios; MTV Brazil; Superinteressante; Deutsche Telekom; EMI >>>> Germany; RTL >>>> (German Television Broadcaster); Droemer Knaur Verlag (German >>>> publisher); >>>> Microsoft Germany; Nokia; NBC Universal; Fantasporto (Portugal); >>>> Swedish >>>> Television (SVT); ABC; Yahoo!7; BBC; Sony; Activision; Electronic >>>> Arts; ABC >>>> Family Television; General Motors. >>>> >>>> So, rather than list ALL branded entertainment ARGs (and waddle >>>> into >>>> the >>>> murky water of what is an ARG), I suggest a page that purports to >>>> only >>>> offering a sampling. >>>> >>>> The same with the independent ARGs. I think a sample listing of >>>> independent >>>> ARGs like Sammeeeees, Eldritch Errors, Chasing the Wish and their >>>> sequels, >>>> Lockjaw, Metacortechs and so on would be enough. The aim of this >>>> resource is >>>> not to offer a comprehensive listing of independent ARGs (there are >>>> other >>>> great resources out there as we know!), but to show how ARGs exist >>>> outside >>>> of branded entertainment...and that there are high-quality, >>>> successful and >>>> artistically diverse independent ARGs out there! So, what about an >>>> arbitrary >>>> number, say 15?, of independents that are representative of older >>>> and more >>>> recent ARGs. Suggestions? >>>> >>>> This is how I would recommend progressing. >>>> >>>> Hugh, how do you feel about this approach? I would work with you to >>>> assist >>>> with the sampling...and whomever else would like to be involved! We >>>> could >>>> utilize (and cite) yours and existing ARG databases and go from >>>> there. >>>> >>>> Wohoo! Thanks Hugh for taking the time! >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Christy >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org >>>> ] On >>>> Behalf Of marcus.helm at gmail.com >>>> Sent: Friday, 3 April 2009 21:04 >>>> To: arg_discuss at igda.org >>>> Subject: [arg_discuss] arg list >>>> >>>> I've shared a document with you called "arg list": >>>> >> http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pE0znztln2kmQruQyplrzeA&inv=arg_discu >>>> ss at igda.org >>>> >>>> It's not an attachment -- it's stored online at Google Docs. To >>>> open >>>> this >>>> document, just click the link above. >>>> >>>> As mentioned earlier this week, I have begun compiling >>>> spreadsheet of >>>> ARG's towards getting a listing of the all the brands that have >>>> worked >>>> with ARGs as well as a listing of independent ARG's for ARGology. >>>> Its attached here as an Excel spreadsheet and is very much in the >>>> draft >>>> stage. >>>> >>>> >>>> I urge one and all to cast an eye over it, correct mistakes and >>>> fill >>>> any missing info including the many games that I appologise for not >>>> including already. Im also open to persuasion about what >>>> constituties >>>> and ARG as there are likely to be some contentious inclusions. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> ARG_Discuss mailing list >>>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >>>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> ARG_Discuss mailing list >>>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >>>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> ARG_Discuss mailing list >>>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >>>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> ARG_Discuss mailing list >>>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >>>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> ARG_Discuss mailing list >>>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >>>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> --- >>>> Mike Monello >>>> Partner, Campfire >>>> 62 White Street, 3E >>>> New York, NY 10013 >>>> 212-612-9600 >>>> http://www.campfirenyc.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> ARG_Discuss mailing list >>>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >>>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ARG_Discuss mailing list >>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >>> >>> >>> >>> --- >>> Mike Monello >>> Partner, Campfire >>> 62 White Street, 3E >>> New York, NY 10013 >>> 212-612-9600 >>> http://www.campfirenyc.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ARG_Discuss mailing list >>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From adam.m.s.martin at googlemail.com Mon Apr 6 16:45:05 2009 From: adam.m.s.martin at googlemail.com (Adam Martin) Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 21:45:05 +0100 Subject: [arg_discuss] arg list In-Reply-To: References: <2F3F9071-D5C3-4C12-B734-887F201F9539@mirlandano.com> Message-ID: I can't remember who wrote that, but I have a suspicion it may have been me. If so my intent (and anyway my interpretation) is/was very much NOT that the primary target is mainstream game developers: in my mind there are two distinct phrases there. The first phrase is implicitly not constrained to any particular group (this lack of constraint was a founding ideal of the SIG, even if we sometimes failed to convey it as such or act that way). The second phrase is explicitly targetted because at the time - more than three years ago - we were getting largely ignored and certainly misunderstood by the general games industry, and that seemed a shame. Looking back, the IGDA has had practically zero involvement in anything we've ever done, save the occasional support and freebies they've given us (eg free 1-hour slots at the GDC conference); I'm sure that they will happily support/not interfere with any initiative we come up with that does any benefit for the vaguely defined area of "ARGs" (or any alternative definition we care to choose). Basically, if we're doing anything beneficial to the world at large, I think they're happy - and they would never presume to tell us what we should be doing, they trust us to be knowledgeable enough to decide what's best ourselves. -- Weird typos? Sorry, this mail was written on an iPhone :) On 6 Apr 2009, at 18:56, "Brian Clark" wrote: > Brooke asked, "Is that still the case and/or is that the best > phrasing?" > > WWW> (t)o bring together a wide spectrum of experts in the state-of- > the-art > WWW> of the ARG genre, and to facilitate the sharing of their > knowledge and > WWW> promotion of ARG's to mainstream games developers. > > So primary target market is "mainstream games developers": makes > sense in > the IGDA context. Then the second part reads: > > WWW> This SIG will also serve as an initial contact-point for the many > WWW> organizations who have trouble knowing where to look but want > to work > WWW> with ARG developers both professional and hobbyist. > > That's essentially the part Mike was talking about, "the many > organizations" > with "trouble knowing where to look". The goals sound like this is a > trade > association that includes "professionals and hobbyists", eh? > > > Brian > > -----Original Message----- > From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org > ] On > Behalf Of Brooke Thompson > Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 12:42 PM > To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG > Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list > > Dan wrote: >> At first blush, the IGDA is for game developers, which is probably > one reason why we're having problems. > > Yes, that's true - IGDA is for game developers, but I don't see why > that's an issue. Game developers often choose to create documents for > and speak outside of their little circle of game developer buddies. > And, beyond that, game developers often have knowledge that is useful > to those outside of the game industry. A little outreach isn't such a > bad thing, especially for ARGs which can have their hands in so many > other cookie jars. mmmm cookies. > > > Mike wrote: >> So does that mean everything produced by it should be for that > audience? If so, then that's a nice specific audience to help narrow > down what it should be, no? > > I don't think so. Do game developers care what sort of companies have > used ARGs for promotional purposes? It seems like it would be more > valuable to people who are researching branded ARGs for some reason. > Discussion about the list hasn't talked about the platforms used or > genre of storytelling or anything of that nature - it is a list of > brands and args that have promoted them. So, from my perspective, the > people that would benefit from it the most are those that would be > looking at those sorts of things. I know that you were attempting to > look at who we wanted to make a list for and then provide the > appropriate content, but it seems to me that someone's gone and > gathered the content and so now it's time to figure out who would best > benefit from it and frame it in that sense. > > So, who would benefit from such a list and how would they like to see > it? Slides seem like a great way to go for the ad types out there and > maybe we could have a page on ARGology that's echoes the information > and points to the slides. > > > > Now, the question that seems to be hiding under both of your comments > relates to the aims of the ARG SIG. According to the site, we aim... > (t)o bring together a wide spectrum of experts in the state-of-the-art > of the ARG genre, and to facilitate the sharing of their knowledge and > promotion of ARG's to mainstream games developers. This SIG will also > serve as an initial contact-point for the many organizations who have > trouble knowing where to look but want to work with ARG developers > both professional and hobbyist. > > Is that still the case and/or is that the best phrasing? > > > > > > > > > On Apr 6, 2009, at 11:13 AM, Michael Monello wrote: > >> So does that mean everything produced by it should be for that >> audience? If so, then that's a nice specific audience to help narrow >> down what it should be, no? >> >> >> On 4/6/09 10:29 AM, "Dan Hon" wrote: >> >> At first blush, the IGDA is for game developers, which is probably >> one >> reason why we're having problems. >> -- >> Dan Hon, CEO, Six to Start >> m: +44 7870 600 828 >> t: +44 33 3340 7490, f: +44 33 3340 7494 >> >> >> >> >> On 6 Apr 2009, at 15:25, Michael Monello wrote: >> >>> Without stepping into the definition issue, I'd like to know what is >>> the goal of this list and who is the audience? Is it a resource to >>> CMOs, brand managers, marketers and potential clients to show them >>> what has done and perhaps inspire more new projects? If so, then I >>> think a more effective approach would be a self-guided, nicely >>> designed PowerPoint presentation that is uploaded, properly tagged, >>> and attributed to the ARG Sig to SlideShare. Something that a >>> forward thinking member of a brand team might be able to present to >>> others would be more effective at the above goal, but I don't know >>> the goal of this exercise. >>> >>> Before we even get into what the content is, we should probably look >>> at who the audience is and then determine what the format/content >>> should be. If I had clarity on at least that level, I feel like I >>> might be able to contribute and I imagine others would as well. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> -Mike >>> >>> On 4/6/09 10:12 AM, "Brian Clark" wrote: >>> >>> Christy, I guess I just feel like we've been down this road before. >>> Such >>> lists exist or could be supplemented. It includes stuff that could >>> stimulate >>> debate, and doesn't include stuff that could stimulate debate, but >>> doesn't >>> really by itself add much to the body of published knowledge. >>> >>> Cristy wrote: "I'm trying to be diplomatic here and suggesting >>> that a >>> curated listing may do a better job of avoiding the 'what is an ARG' >>> debate." >>> >>> I understand that, but then the curator is cementing the definition >>> anyway >>> by that curation. This is part of what has gotten us into the >>> situation we >>> are, IMHO, and could prove counter-productive. Instead, to me, it >>> feels like >>> clarity to labels is something fairly appropriate for the SIG to >>> tackle ... >>> and the SIG working together on something seems to also be what the >>> SIG >>> needs. What we need is a new way to work on that problem, rather >>> than just >>> another list. >>> >>> >>> Brian >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org >>> ] On >>> Behalf Of Christy Dena >>> Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 9:57 AM >>> To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' >>> Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list >>> >>> Hey Brian, >>> >>> Perhaps I wasn't clear. I don't think we should use the list of all >>> the >>> projects Hugh listed. Instead, I'm suggesting a selection of those >>> on Hugh's >>> list and elsewhere. Although there is a lot of disagreement about >>> what >>> qualifies as an ARG, I think we're in agreement that Hugh's list >>> includes >>> non-ARG projects (Hugh was most likely making a broad sweep for the >>> first >>> draft). >>> >>> I'm trying to be diplomatic here and suggesting that a curated >>> listing may >>> do a better job of avoiding the 'what is an ARG' debate. That >>> discussion is >>> important -- and has been a good reawakener, as Brooke says, about >>> the ARGdb >>> -- but a definition of an ARG does not need to be determined for >>> these >>> resources. >>> >>> Best, >>> Christy >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org >>> ] On >>> Behalf Of Brian Clark >>> Sent: Monday, 6 April 2009 23:21 >>> To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' >>> Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list >>> >>> Not to take away from Hugh's list at all, but I personally think >>> we're once >>> again dodging what "it is" so you'll end up with "a list of brands >>> that have >>> commissioned something that someone thought was close enough to >>> being an >>> ARG." >>> >>> If: >>> >>> Christy: "The aim is to provide information for companies who are >>> considering commissioning an ARG." >>> >>> How does this help accomplish that? >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org >>> ] On >>> Behalf Of Christy Dena >>> Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 8:18 AM >>> To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' >>> Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list >>> >>> >>> Hello Hugh: Well I don't think you expected to have created such >>> controversy! I can see you've done a lot of work in putting that >>> listing >>> together. Fantastic. :) >>> >>> I actually don't think we need to figure out some clustering system >>> for this >>> resource (elsewhere, yes, that would be interesting). The intention >>> behind >>> the Brands resource is to show there are many companies/brands that >>> have >>> commissioned ARGs. What is important therefore is the company/artist >>> and >>> producer or service and how many ARGs they have commissioned. >>> Microsoft, for >>> instance, have commissioned ARGs on several occasions. It is not a >>> listing >>> of ARGs for media properties (eg: A.I.) but the companies that >>> commissioned >>> them (eg: Microsoft). The aim is to provide information for >>> companies who >>> are considering commissioning an ARG. >>> >>> A quick scan through some of my files reveals some big names around >>> the >>> world: McDonalds; Microsoft (Game Studio); NBC; CBS; AudiUSA; Bungie >>> Studios; MTV Brazil; Superinteressante; Deutsche Telekom; EMI >>> Germany; RTL >>> (German Television Broadcaster); Droemer Knaur Verlag (German >>> publisher); >>> Microsoft Germany; Nokia; NBC Universal; Fantasporto (Portugal); >>> Swedish >>> Television (SVT); ABC; Yahoo!7; BBC; Sony; Activision; Electronic >>> Arts; ABC >>> Family Television; General Motors. >>> >>> So, rather than list ALL branded entertainment ARGs (and waddle into >>> the >>> murky water of what is an ARG), I suggest a page that purports to >>> only >>> offering a sampling. >>> >>> The same with the independent ARGs. I think a sample listing of >>> independent >>> ARGs like Sammeeeees, Eldritch Errors, Chasing the Wish and their >>> sequels, >>> Lockjaw, Metacortechs and so on would be enough. The aim of this >>> resource is >>> not to offer a comprehensive listing of independent ARGs (there are >>> other >>> great resources out there as we know!), but to show how ARGs exist >>> outside >>> of branded entertainment...and that there are high-quality, >>> successful and >>> artistically diverse independent ARGs out there! So, what about an >>> arbitrary >>> number, say 15?, of independents that are representative of older >>> and more >>> recent ARGs. Suggestions? >>> >>> This is how I would recommend progressing. >>> >>> Hugh, how do you feel about this approach? I would work with you to >>> assist >>> with the sampling...and whomever else would like to be involved! We >>> could >>> utilize (and cite) yours and existing ARG databases and go from >>> there. >>> >>> Wohoo! Thanks Hugh for taking the time! >>> >>> Best, >>> Christy >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org >>> ] On >>> Behalf Of marcus.helm at gmail.com >>> Sent: Friday, 3 April 2009 21:04 >>> To: arg_discuss at igda.org >>> Subject: [arg_discuss] arg list >>> >>> I've shared a document with you called "arg list": >>> > http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pE0znztln2kmQruQyplrzeA&inv=arg_discu >>> ss at igda.org >>> >>> It's not an attachment -- it's stored online at Google Docs. To open >>> this >>> document, just click the link above. >>> >>> As mentioned earlier this week, I have begun compiling spreadsheet >>> of >>> ARG's towards getting a listing of the all the brands that have >>> worked >>> with ARGs as well as a listing of independent ARG's for ARGology. >>> Its attached here as an Excel spreadsheet and is very much in the >>> draft >>> stage. >>> >>> >>> I urge one and all to cast an eye over it, correct mistakes and fill >>> any missing info including the many games that I appologise for not >>> including already. Im also open to persuasion about what >>> constituties >>> and ARG as there are likely to be some contentious inclusions. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ARG_Discuss mailing list >>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ARG_Discuss mailing list >>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ARG_Discuss mailing list >>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ARG_Discuss mailing list >>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ARG_Discuss mailing list >>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >>> >>> >>> >>> --- >>> Mike Monello >>> Partner, Campfire >>> 62 White Street, 3E >>> New York, NY 10013 >>> 212-612-9600 >>> http://www.campfirenyc.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ARG_Discuss mailing list >>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >> >> >> >> --- >> Mike Monello >> Partner, Campfire >> 62 White Street, 3E >> New York, NY 10013 >> 212-612-9600 >> http://www.campfirenyc.com >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From cdena at cross-mediaentertainment.com Mon Apr 6 19:46:40 2009 From: cdena at cross-mediaentertainment.com (Christy Dena) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 09:46:40 +1000 Subject: [arg_discuss] arg list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20090406234645.KQOW20709.nskntotgx01p.mx.bigpond.com@HPPIE> I really like the idea of the ppt Mike. It could be uploaded onto SlideShare and embedded on an ARGology page -- so that is easy. And it is something people can easily put into their own slideshows etc. We could have the ARGology & ARG SIG insignia on each slide. As to your question about the intended audience: I'll reveal my initial impetus to share a list of companies/brands that have commissioned ARGs, and anyone can add the goal they think would be helpful. I've found there are some clients (companies, agencies) that are new to ARGs. Shock! Horror! So, I've had production companies contact me, wanting to assist them with helping to win their pitch. Of the many strategies used, is an overview of the brands that have commissioned ARGs. Then I thought, as I usually do, that rather than myself and my own clients being the only ones to benefit from this approach, the whole area could be benefit. It just may help someone get a job. It just may help another ARG be created. That is why I do the ARG stats etc. It helps ARGs get created. But that is also why I create resources on the creative side of things, because I believe they help people see ARGs as an artform too. And yes, there are other things clients need too. That is why, Brooke, I commented to you in Twitter that story summaries, mediums used, length of project, stats, player responses, innovative/stand-out techniques etc would be great in the ARGdb. I've been personally working on this information for a while but the massive and self-correcting knowledge of collective intelligence is the ideal. Anything that assists the craft and industry of ARGs is surely under the purview of the ARG SIG. If not, I can easily work with some folks and put these resources elsewhere. But I really don't think anyone has a problem with the ARG SIG creating such resources. So, let's get on with it! :) Best, Christy -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Michael Monello Sent: Tuesday, 7 April 2009 00:26 To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list Without stepping into the definition issue, I'd like to know what is the goal of this list and who is the audience? Is it a resource to CMOs, brand managers, marketers and potential clients to show them what has done and perhaps inspire more new projects? If so, then I think a more effective approach would be a self-guided, nicely designed PowerPoint presentation that is uploaded, properly tagged, and attributed to the ARG Sig to SlideShare. Something that a forward thinking member of a brand team might be able to present to others would be more effective at the above goal, but I don't know the goal of this exercise. Before we even get into what the content is, we should probably look at who the audience is and then determine what the format/content should be. If I had clarity on at least that level, I feel like I might be able to contribute and I imagine others would as well. Best, -Mike On 4/6/09 10:12 AM, "Brian Clark" wrote: Christy, I guess I just feel like we've been down this road before. Such lists exist or could be supplemented. It includes stuff that could stimulate debate, and doesn't include stuff that could stimulate debate, but doesn't really by itself add much to the body of published knowledge. Cristy wrote: "I'm trying to be diplomatic here and suggesting that a curated listing may do a better job of avoiding the 'what is an ARG' debate." I understand that, but then the curator is cementing the definition anyway by that curation. This is part of what has gotten us into the situation we are, IMHO, and could prove counter-productive. Instead, to me, it feels like clarity to labels is something fairly appropriate for the SIG to tackle ... and the SIG working together on something seems to also be what the SIG needs. What we need is a new way to work on that problem, rather than just another list. Brian -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Christy Dena Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 9:57 AM To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list Hey Brian, Perhaps I wasn't clear. I don't think we should use the list of all the projects Hugh listed. Instead, I'm suggesting a selection of those on Hugh's list and elsewhere. Although there is a lot of disagreement about what qualifies as an ARG, I think we're in agreement that Hugh's list includes non-ARG projects (Hugh was most likely making a broad sweep for the first draft). I'm trying to be diplomatic here and suggesting that a curated listing may do a better job of avoiding the 'what is an ARG' debate. That discussion is important -- and has been a good reawakener, as Brooke says, about the ARGdb -- but a definition of an ARG does not need to be determined for these resources. Best, Christy -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Brian Clark Sent: Monday, 6 April 2009 23:21 To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list Not to take away from Hugh's list at all, but I personally think we're once again dodging what "it is" so you'll end up with "a list of brands that have commissioned something that someone thought was close enough to being an ARG." If: Christy: "The aim is to provide information for companies who are considering commissioning an ARG." How does this help accomplish that? -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Christy Dena Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 8:18 AM To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list Hello Hugh: Well I don't think you expected to have created such controversy! I can see you've done a lot of work in putting that listing together. Fantastic. :) I actually don't think we need to figure out some clustering system for this resource (elsewhere, yes, that would be interesting). The intention behind the Brands resource is to show there are many companies/brands that have commissioned ARGs. What is important therefore is the company/artist and producer or service and how many ARGs they have commissioned. Microsoft, for instance, have commissioned ARGs on several occasions. It is not a listing of ARGs for media properties (eg: A.I.) but the companies that commissioned them (eg: Microsoft). The aim is to provide information for companies who are considering commissioning an ARG. A quick scan through some of my files reveals some big names around the world: McDonalds; Microsoft (Game Studio); NBC; CBS; AudiUSA; Bungie Studios; MTV Brazil; Superinteressante; Deutsche Telekom; EMI Germany; RTL (German Television Broadcaster); Droemer Knaur Verlag (German publisher); Microsoft Germany; Nokia; NBC Universal; Fantasporto (Portugal); Swedish Television (SVT); ABC; Yahoo!7; BBC; Sony; Activision; Electronic Arts; ABC Family Television; General Motors. So, rather than list ALL branded entertainment ARGs (and waddle into the murky water of what is an ARG), I suggest a page that purports to only offering a sampling. The same with the independent ARGs. I think a sample listing of independent ARGs like Sammeeeees, Eldritch Errors, Chasing the Wish and their sequels, Lockjaw, Metacortechs and so on would be enough. The aim of this resource is not to offer a comprehensive listing of independent ARGs (there are other great resources out there as we know!), but to show how ARGs exist outside of branded entertainment...and that there are high-quality, successful and artistically diverse independent ARGs out there! So, what about an arbitrary number, say 15?, of independents that are representative of older and more recent ARGs. Suggestions? This is how I would recommend progressing. Hugh, how do you feel about this approach? I would work with you to assist with the sampling...and whomever else would like to be involved! We could utilize (and cite) yours and existing ARG databases and go from there. Wohoo! Thanks Hugh for taking the time! Best, Christy -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of marcus.helm at gmail.com Sent: Friday, 3 April 2009 21:04 To: arg_discuss at igda.org Subject: [arg_discuss] arg list I've shared a document with you called "arg list": http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pE0znztln2kmQruQyplrzeA&inv=arg_discu ss at igda.org It's not an attachment -- it's stored online at Google Docs. To open this document, just click the link above. As mentioned earlier this week, I have begun compiling spreadsheet of ARG's towards getting a listing of the all the brands that have worked with ARGs as well as a listing of independent ARG's for ARGology. Its attached here as an Excel spreadsheet and is very much in the draft stage. I urge one and all to cast an eye over it, correct mistakes and fill any missing info including the many games that I appologise for not including already. Im also open to persuasion about what constituties and ARG as there are likely to be some contentious inclusions. _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss --- Mike Monello Partner, Campfire 62 White Street, 3E New York, NY 10013 212-612-9600 http://www.campfirenyc.com _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From bclark at gmdstudios.com Tue Apr 7 09:38:35 2009 From: bclark at gmdstudios.com (Brian Clark) Date: Tue, 7 Apr 2009 09:38:35 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] arg list In-Reply-To: <20090406234645.KQOW20709.nskntotgx01p.mx.bigpond.com@HPPIE> References: <20090406234645.KQOW20709.nskntotgx01p.mx.bigpond.com@HPPIE> Message-ID: Christy wrote: "But I really don't think anyone has a problem with the ARG SIG creating such resources." I have some lingering concerns over the way the white paper was handled in the past, but that's just because we need a clearer vehicle for "SIG creation". Ancient business, water long under the bridge. Christy wrote: "the brands that have commissioned ARGs" See, that's where I think we have different perspectives. It begs both the questions of "what is an ARG" and "what does it mean to commission". Not that I'm any kind of PowerPoint Nazi (pitch what you will), but lending the SIG "authority" (stop snickering, Monello) to something like that feels to me like something that rises to a higher test of objectivity. YMMV. That said, I am really all for this SIG doing something (in fact, I'm confident it could do more than one thing simultaneously) and hate casting myself in the roadblock role. -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Christy Dena Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 7:47 PM To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list I really like the idea of the ppt Mike. It could be uploaded onto SlideShare and embedded on an ARGology page -- so that is easy. And it is something people can easily put into their own slideshows etc. We could have the ARGology & ARG SIG insignia on each slide. As to your question about the intended audience: I'll reveal my initial impetus to share a list of companies/brands that have commissioned ARGs, and anyone can add the goal they think would be helpful. I've found there are some clients (companies, agencies) that are new to ARGs. Shock! Horror! So, I've had production companies contact me, wanting to assist them with helping to win their pitch. Of the many strategies used, is an overview of the brands that have commissioned ARGs. Then I thought, as I usually do, that rather than myself and my own clients being the only ones to benefit from this approach, the whole area could be benefit. It just may help someone get a job. It just may help another ARG be created. That is why I do the ARG stats etc. It helps ARGs get created. But that is also why I create resources on the creative side of things, because I believe they help people see ARGs as an artform too. And yes, there are other things clients need too. That is why, Brooke, I commented to you in Twitter that story summaries, mediums used, length of project, stats, player responses, innovative/stand-out techniques etc would be great in the ARGdb. I've been personally working on this information for a while but the massive and self-correcting knowledge of collective intelligence is the ideal. Anything that assists the craft and industry of ARGs is surely under the purview of the ARG SIG. If not, I can easily work with some folks and put these resources elsewhere. But I really don't think anyone has a problem with the ARG SIG creating such resources. So, let's get on with it! :) Best, Christy -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Michael Monello Sent: Tuesday, 7 April 2009 00:26 To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list Without stepping into the definition issue, I'd like to know what is the goal of this list and who is the audience? Is it a resource to CMOs, brand managers, marketers and potential clients to show them what has done and perhaps inspire more new projects? If so, then I think a more effective approach would be a self-guided, nicely designed PowerPoint presentation that is uploaded, properly tagged, and attributed to the ARG Sig to SlideShare. Something that a forward thinking member of a brand team might be able to present to others would be more effective at the above goal, but I don't know the goal of this exercise. Before we even get into what the content is, we should probably look at who the audience is and then determine what the format/content should be. If I had clarity on at least that level, I feel like I might be able to contribute and I imagine others would as well. Best, -Mike On 4/6/09 10:12 AM, "Brian Clark" wrote: Christy, I guess I just feel like we've been down this road before. Such lists exist or could be supplemented. It includes stuff that could stimulate debate, and doesn't include stuff that could stimulate debate, but doesn't really by itself add much to the body of published knowledge. Cristy wrote: "I'm trying to be diplomatic here and suggesting that a curated listing may do a better job of avoiding the 'what is an ARG' debate." I understand that, but then the curator is cementing the definition anyway by that curation. This is part of what has gotten us into the situation we are, IMHO, and could prove counter-productive. Instead, to me, it feels like clarity to labels is something fairly appropriate for the SIG to tackle ... and the SIG working together on something seems to also be what the SIG needs. What we need is a new way to work on that problem, rather than just another list. Brian -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Christy Dena Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 9:57 AM To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list Hey Brian, Perhaps I wasn't clear. I don't think we should use the list of all the projects Hugh listed. Instead, I'm suggesting a selection of those on Hugh's list and elsewhere. Although there is a lot of disagreement about what qualifies as an ARG, I think we're in agreement that Hugh's list includes non-ARG projects (Hugh was most likely making a broad sweep for the first draft). I'm trying to be diplomatic here and suggesting that a curated listing may do a better job of avoiding the 'what is an ARG' debate. That discussion is important -- and has been a good reawakener, as Brooke says, about the ARGdb -- but a definition of an ARG does not need to be determined for these resources. Best, Christy -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Brian Clark Sent: Monday, 6 April 2009 23:21 To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list Not to take away from Hugh's list at all, but I personally think we're once again dodging what "it is" so you'll end up with "a list of brands that have commissioned something that someone thought was close enough to being an ARG." If: Christy: "The aim is to provide information for companies who are considering commissioning an ARG." How does this help accomplish that? -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Christy Dena Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 8:18 AM To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list Hello Hugh: Well I don't think you expected to have created such controversy! I can see you've done a lot of work in putting that listing together. Fantastic. :) I actually don't think we need to figure out some clustering system for this resource (elsewhere, yes, that would be interesting). The intention behind the Brands resource is to show there are many companies/brands that have commissioned ARGs. What is important therefore is the company/artist and producer or service and how many ARGs they have commissioned. Microsoft, for instance, have commissioned ARGs on several occasions. It is not a listing of ARGs for media properties (eg: A.I.) but the companies that commissioned them (eg: Microsoft). The aim is to provide information for companies who are considering commissioning an ARG. A quick scan through some of my files reveals some big names around the world: McDonalds; Microsoft (Game Studio); NBC; CBS; AudiUSA; Bungie Studios; MTV Brazil; Superinteressante; Deutsche Telekom; EMI Germany; RTL (German Television Broadcaster); Droemer Knaur Verlag (German publisher); Microsoft Germany; Nokia; NBC Universal; Fantasporto (Portugal); Swedish Television (SVT); ABC; Yahoo!7; BBC; Sony; Activision; Electronic Arts; ABC Family Television; General Motors. So, rather than list ALL branded entertainment ARGs (and waddle into the murky water of what is an ARG), I suggest a page that purports to only offering a sampling. The same with the independent ARGs. I think a sample listing of independent ARGs like Sammeeeees, Eldritch Errors, Chasing the Wish and their sequels, Lockjaw, Metacortechs and so on would be enough. The aim of this resource is not to offer a comprehensive listing of independent ARGs (there are other great resources out there as we know!), but to show how ARGs exist outside of branded entertainment...and that there are high-quality, successful and artistically diverse independent ARGs out there! So, what about an arbitrary number, say 15?, of independents that are representative of older and more recent ARGs. Suggestions? This is how I would recommend progressing. Hugh, how do you feel about this approach? I would work with you to assist with the sampling...and whomever else would like to be involved! We could utilize (and cite) yours and existing ARG databases and go from there. Wohoo! Thanks Hugh for taking the time! Best, Christy -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of marcus.helm at gmail.com Sent: Friday, 3 April 2009 21:04 To: arg_discuss at igda.org Subject: [arg_discuss] arg list I've shared a document with you called "arg list": http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pE0znztln2kmQruQyplrzeA&inv=arg_discu ss at igda.org It's not an attachment -- it's stored online at Google Docs. To open this document, just click the link above. As mentioned earlier this week, I have begun compiling spreadsheet of ARG's towards getting a listing of the all the brands that have worked with ARGs as well as a listing of independent ARG's for ARGology. Its attached here as an Excel spreadsheet and is very much in the draft stage. I urge one and all to cast an eye over it, correct mistakes and fill any missing info including the many games that I appologise for not including already. Im also open to persuasion about what constituties and ARG as there are likely to be some contentious inclusions. _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss --- Mike Monello Partner, Campfire 62 White Street, 3E New York, NY 10013 212-612-9600 http://www.campfirenyc.com _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From cdena at cross-mediaentertainment.com Tue Apr 7 19:54:35 2009 From: cdena at cross-mediaentertainment.com (Christy Dena) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 09:54:35 +1000 Subject: [arg_discuss] arg list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20090407235437.GOOP14063.nschwotgx02p.mx.bigpond.com@HPPIE> Hey Brian, Yep, I hear you. We're all learning. Well, I for one wish more people who have extensive experience and thoughts on the area, like you Brian, would contribute content to ARG SIG initiatives. Mike, Brian, how would you do the Brands ppt? Indeed, would you do the Brands ppt?...because that would rock!! :) Best, Christy -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Brian Clark Sent: Tuesday, 7 April 2009 23:39 To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list Christy wrote: "But I really don't think anyone has a problem with the ARG SIG creating such resources." I have some lingering concerns over the way the white paper was handled in the past, but that's just because we need a clearer vehicle for "SIG creation". Ancient business, water long under the bridge. Christy wrote: "the brands that have commissioned ARGs" See, that's where I think we have different perspectives. It begs both the questions of "what is an ARG" and "what does it mean to commission". Not that I'm any kind of PowerPoint Nazi (pitch what you will), but lending the SIG "authority" (stop snickering, Monello) to something like that feels to me like something that rises to a higher test of objectivity. YMMV. That said, I am really all for this SIG doing something (in fact, I'm confident it could do more than one thing simultaneously) and hate casting myself in the roadblock role. -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Christy Dena Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 7:47 PM To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list I really like the idea of the ppt Mike. It could be uploaded onto SlideShare and embedded on an ARGology page -- so that is easy. And it is something people can easily put into their own slideshows etc. We could have the ARGology & ARG SIG insignia on each slide. As to your question about the intended audience: I'll reveal my initial impetus to share a list of companies/brands that have commissioned ARGs, and anyone can add the goal they think would be helpful. I've found there are some clients (companies, agencies) that are new to ARGs. Shock! Horror! So, I've had production companies contact me, wanting to assist them with helping to win their pitch. Of the many strategies used, is an overview of the brands that have commissioned ARGs. Then I thought, as I usually do, that rather than myself and my own clients being the only ones to benefit from this approach, the whole area could be benefit. It just may help someone get a job. It just may help another ARG be created. That is why I do the ARG stats etc. It helps ARGs get created. But that is also why I create resources on the creative side of things, because I believe they help people see ARGs as an artform too. And yes, there are other things clients need too. That is why, Brooke, I commented to you in Twitter that story summaries, mediums used, length of project, stats, player responses, innovative/stand-out techniques etc would be great in the ARGdb. I've been personally working on this information for a while but the massive and self-correcting knowledge of collective intelligence is the ideal. Anything that assists the craft and industry of ARGs is surely under the purview of the ARG SIG. If not, I can easily work with some folks and put these resources elsewhere. But I really don't think anyone has a problem with the ARG SIG creating such resources. So, let's get on with it! :) Best, Christy -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Michael Monello Sent: Tuesday, 7 April 2009 00:26 To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list Without stepping into the definition issue, I'd like to know what is the goal of this list and who is the audience? Is it a resource to CMOs, brand managers, marketers and potential clients to show them what has done and perhaps inspire more new projects? If so, then I think a more effective approach would be a self-guided, nicely designed PowerPoint presentation that is uploaded, properly tagged, and attributed to the ARG Sig to SlideShare. Something that a forward thinking member of a brand team might be able to present to others would be more effective at the above goal, but I don't know the goal of this exercise. Before we even get into what the content is, we should probably look at who the audience is and then determine what the format/content should be. If I had clarity on at least that level, I feel like I might be able to contribute and I imagine others would as well. Best, -Mike On 4/6/09 10:12 AM, "Brian Clark" wrote: Christy, I guess I just feel like we've been down this road before. Such lists exist or could be supplemented. It includes stuff that could stimulate debate, and doesn't include stuff that could stimulate debate, but doesn't really by itself add much to the body of published knowledge. Cristy wrote: "I'm trying to be diplomatic here and suggesting that a curated listing may do a better job of avoiding the 'what is an ARG' debate." I understand that, but then the curator is cementing the definition anyway by that curation. This is part of what has gotten us into the situation we are, IMHO, and could prove counter-productive. Instead, to me, it feels like clarity to labels is something fairly appropriate for the SIG to tackle ... and the SIG working together on something seems to also be what the SIG needs. What we need is a new way to work on that problem, rather than just another list. Brian -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Christy Dena Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 9:57 AM To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list Hey Brian, Perhaps I wasn't clear. I don't think we should use the list of all the projects Hugh listed. Instead, I'm suggesting a selection of those on Hugh's list and elsewhere. Although there is a lot of disagreement about what qualifies as an ARG, I think we're in agreement that Hugh's list includes non-ARG projects (Hugh was most likely making a broad sweep for the first draft). I'm trying to be diplomatic here and suggesting that a curated listing may do a better job of avoiding the 'what is an ARG' debate. That discussion is important -- and has been a good reawakener, as Brooke says, about the ARGdb -- but a definition of an ARG does not need to be determined for these resources. Best, Christy -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Brian Clark Sent: Monday, 6 April 2009 23:21 To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list Not to take away from Hugh's list at all, but I personally think we're once again dodging what "it is" so you'll end up with "a list of brands that have commissioned something that someone thought was close enough to being an ARG." If: Christy: "The aim is to provide information for companies who are considering commissioning an ARG." How does this help accomplish that? -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Christy Dena Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 8:18 AM To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list Hello Hugh: Well I don't think you expected to have created such controversy! I can see you've done a lot of work in putting that listing together. Fantastic. :) I actually don't think we need to figure out some clustering system for this resource (elsewhere, yes, that would be interesting). The intention behind the Brands resource is to show there are many companies/brands that have commissioned ARGs. What is important therefore is the company/artist and producer or service and how many ARGs they have commissioned. Microsoft, for instance, have commissioned ARGs on several occasions. It is not a listing of ARGs for media properties (eg: A.I.) but the companies that commissioned them (eg: Microsoft). The aim is to provide information for companies who are considering commissioning an ARG. A quick scan through some of my files reveals some big names around the world: McDonalds; Microsoft (Game Studio); NBC; CBS; AudiUSA; Bungie Studios; MTV Brazil; Superinteressante; Deutsche Telekom; EMI Germany; RTL (German Television Broadcaster); Droemer Knaur Verlag (German publisher); Microsoft Germany; Nokia; NBC Universal; Fantasporto (Portugal); Swedish Television (SVT); ABC; Yahoo!7; BBC; Sony; Activision; Electronic Arts; ABC Family Television; General Motors. So, rather than list ALL branded entertainment ARGs (and waddle into the murky water of what is an ARG), I suggest a page that purports to only offering a sampling. The same with the independent ARGs. I think a sample listing of independent ARGs like Sammeeeees, Eldritch Errors, Chasing the Wish and their sequels, Lockjaw, Metacortechs and so on would be enough. The aim of this resource is not to offer a comprehensive listing of independent ARGs (there are other great resources out there as we know!), but to show how ARGs exist outside of branded entertainment...and that there are high-quality, successful and artistically diverse independent ARGs out there! So, what about an arbitrary number, say 15?, of independents that are representative of older and more recent ARGs. Suggestions? This is how I would recommend progressing. Hugh, how do you feel about this approach? I would work with you to assist with the sampling...and whomever else would like to be involved! We could utilize (and cite) yours and existing ARG databases and go from there. Wohoo! Thanks Hugh for taking the time! Best, Christy -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of marcus.helm at gmail.com Sent: Friday, 3 April 2009 21:04 To: arg_discuss at igda.org Subject: [arg_discuss] arg list I've shared a document with you called "arg list": http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pE0znztln2kmQruQyplrzeA&inv=arg_discu ss at igda.org It's not an attachment -- it's stored online at Google Docs. To open this document, just click the link above. As mentioned earlier this week, I have begun compiling spreadsheet of ARG's towards getting a listing of the all the brands that have worked with ARGs as well as a listing of independent ARG's for ARGology. Its attached here as an Excel spreadsheet and is very much in the draft stage. I urge one and all to cast an eye over it, correct mistakes and fill any missing info including the many games that I appologise for not including already. Im also open to persuasion about what constituties and ARG as there are likely to be some contentious inclusions. _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss --- Mike Monello Partner, Campfire 62 White Street, 3E New York, NY 10013 212-612-9600 http://www.campfirenyc.com _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From bclark at gmdstudios.com Wed Apr 8 09:43:18 2009 From: bclark at gmdstudios.com (Brian Clark) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 09:43:18 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] arg list In-Reply-To: <20090407235437.GOOP14063.nschwotgx02p.mx.bigpond.com@HPPIE> References: <20090407235437.GOOP14063.nschwotgx02p.mx.bigpond.com@HPPIE> Message-ID: I'd argue that perhaps the right first step is try to get the SIG into a conversation: what are the toughest and most commonly encountered roadbumps developers are finding while pitching work? I imagine that would give a pretty good overview of the kinds of things a CMO/marketer/agency focused informational deck might be useful (something that is easy for other developers to incorporate.) I'm always happy to contribute to an effort, but I'm not sure any of us have this so templated that it bypasses a good needs assessment. Which means I'm keenly aware that the roadbumps I encounter might not be the same that others do, but if I had to start the list: * "ARG is just a kind of viral marketing, right?" (what is an ARG gen 3) * "So this is just branding with no measurable results?" (metrics & ARGs) * "I'm not trying to sell my Xs to ARGers!" (activities vs. demographics) * "We're not interested in the 18-24 year old boys who play ARGs!" (real demographics of players) Brian -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Christy Dena Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 7:55 PM To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list Hey Brian, Yep, I hear you. We're all learning. Well, I for one wish more people who have extensive experience and thoughts on the area, like you Brian, would contribute content to ARG SIG initiatives. Mike, Brian, how would you do the Brands ppt? Indeed, would you do the Brands ppt?...because that would rock!! :) Best, Christy -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Brian Clark Sent: Tuesday, 7 April 2009 23:39 To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list Christy wrote: "But I really don't think anyone has a problem with the ARG SIG creating such resources." I have some lingering concerns over the way the white paper was handled in the past, but that's just because we need a clearer vehicle for "SIG creation". Ancient business, water long under the bridge. Christy wrote: "the brands that have commissioned ARGs" See, that's where I think we have different perspectives. It begs both the questions of "what is an ARG" and "what does it mean to commission". Not that I'm any kind of PowerPoint Nazi (pitch what you will), but lending the SIG "authority" (stop snickering, Monello) to something like that feels to me like something that rises to a higher test of objectivity. YMMV. That said, I am really all for this SIG doing something (in fact, I'm confident it could do more than one thing simultaneously) and hate casting myself in the roadblock role. -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Christy Dena Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 7:47 PM To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list I really like the idea of the ppt Mike. It could be uploaded onto SlideShare and embedded on an ARGology page -- so that is easy. And it is something people can easily put into their own slideshows etc. We could have the ARGology & ARG SIG insignia on each slide. As to your question about the intended audience: I'll reveal my initial impetus to share a list of companies/brands that have commissioned ARGs, and anyone can add the goal they think would be helpful. I've found there are some clients (companies, agencies) that are new to ARGs. Shock! Horror! So, I've had production companies contact me, wanting to assist them with helping to win their pitch. Of the many strategies used, is an overview of the brands that have commissioned ARGs. Then I thought, as I usually do, that rather than myself and my own clients being the only ones to benefit from this approach, the whole area could be benefit. It just may help someone get a job. It just may help another ARG be created. That is why I do the ARG stats etc. It helps ARGs get created. But that is also why I create resources on the creative side of things, because I believe they help people see ARGs as an artform too. And yes, there are other things clients need too. That is why, Brooke, I commented to you in Twitter that story summaries, mediums used, length of project, stats, player responses, innovative/stand-out techniques etc would be great in the ARGdb. I've been personally working on this information for a while but the massive and self-correcting knowledge of collective intelligence is the ideal. Anything that assists the craft and industry of ARGs is surely under the purview of the ARG SIG. If not, I can easily work with some folks and put these resources elsewhere. But I really don't think anyone has a problem with the ARG SIG creating such resources. So, let's get on with it! :) Best, Christy -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Michael Monello Sent: Tuesday, 7 April 2009 00:26 To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list Without stepping into the definition issue, I'd like to know what is the goal of this list and who is the audience? Is it a resource to CMOs, brand managers, marketers and potential clients to show them what has done and perhaps inspire more new projects? If so, then I think a more effective approach would be a self-guided, nicely designed PowerPoint presentation that is uploaded, properly tagged, and attributed to the ARG Sig to SlideShare. Something that a forward thinking member of a brand team might be able to present to others would be more effective at the above goal, but I don't know the goal of this exercise. Before we even get into what the content is, we should probably look at who the audience is and then determine what the format/content should be. If I had clarity on at least that level, I feel like I might be able to contribute and I imagine others would as well. Best, -Mike On 4/6/09 10:12 AM, "Brian Clark" wrote: Christy, I guess I just feel like we've been down this road before. Such lists exist or could be supplemented. It includes stuff that could stimulate debate, and doesn't include stuff that could stimulate debate, but doesn't really by itself add much to the body of published knowledge. Cristy wrote: "I'm trying to be diplomatic here and suggesting that a curated listing may do a better job of avoiding the 'what is an ARG' debate." I understand that, but then the curator is cementing the definition anyway by that curation. This is part of what has gotten us into the situation we are, IMHO, and could prove counter-productive. Instead, to me, it feels like clarity to labels is something fairly appropriate for the SIG to tackle ... and the SIG working together on something seems to also be what the SIG needs. What we need is a new way to work on that problem, rather than just another list. Brian -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Christy Dena Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 9:57 AM To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list Hey Brian, Perhaps I wasn't clear. I don't think we should use the list of all the projects Hugh listed. Instead, I'm suggesting a selection of those on Hugh's list and elsewhere. Although there is a lot of disagreement about what qualifies as an ARG, I think we're in agreement that Hugh's list includes non-ARG projects (Hugh was most likely making a broad sweep for the first draft). I'm trying to be diplomatic here and suggesting that a curated listing may do a better job of avoiding the 'what is an ARG' debate. That discussion is important -- and has been a good reawakener, as Brooke says, about the ARGdb -- but a definition of an ARG does not need to be determined for these resources. Best, Christy -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Brian Clark Sent: Monday, 6 April 2009 23:21 To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list Not to take away from Hugh's list at all, but I personally think we're once again dodging what "it is" so you'll end up with "a list of brands that have commissioned something that someone thought was close enough to being an ARG." If: Christy: "The aim is to provide information for companies who are considering commissioning an ARG." How does this help accomplish that? -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Christy Dena Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 8:18 AM To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list Hello Hugh: Well I don't think you expected to have created such controversy! I can see you've done a lot of work in putting that listing together. Fantastic. :) I actually don't think we need to figure out some clustering system for this resource (elsewhere, yes, that would be interesting). The intention behind the Brands resource is to show there are many companies/brands that have commissioned ARGs. What is important therefore is the company/artist and producer or service and how many ARGs they have commissioned. Microsoft, for instance, have commissioned ARGs on several occasions. It is not a listing of ARGs for media properties (eg: A.I.) but the companies that commissioned them (eg: Microsoft). The aim is to provide information for companies who are considering commissioning an ARG. A quick scan through some of my files reveals some big names around the world: McDonalds; Microsoft (Game Studio); NBC; CBS; AudiUSA; Bungie Studios; MTV Brazil; Superinteressante; Deutsche Telekom; EMI Germany; RTL (German Television Broadcaster); Droemer Knaur Verlag (German publisher); Microsoft Germany; Nokia; NBC Universal; Fantasporto (Portugal); Swedish Television (SVT); ABC; Yahoo!7; BBC; Sony; Activision; Electronic Arts; ABC Family Television; General Motors. So, rather than list ALL branded entertainment ARGs (and waddle into the murky water of what is an ARG), I suggest a page that purports to only offering a sampling. The same with the independent ARGs. I think a sample listing of independent ARGs like Sammeeeees, Eldritch Errors, Chasing the Wish and their sequels, Lockjaw, Metacortechs and so on would be enough. The aim of this resource is not to offer a comprehensive listing of independent ARGs (there are other great resources out there as we know!), but to show how ARGs exist outside of branded entertainment...and that there are high-quality, successful and artistically diverse independent ARGs out there! So, what about an arbitrary number, say 15?, of independents that are representative of older and more recent ARGs. Suggestions? This is how I would recommend progressing. Hugh, how do you feel about this approach? I would work with you to assist with the sampling...and whomever else would like to be involved! We could utilize (and cite) yours and existing ARG databases and go from there. Wohoo! Thanks Hugh for taking the time! Best, Christy -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of marcus.helm at gmail.com Sent: Friday, 3 April 2009 21:04 To: arg_discuss at igda.org Subject: [arg_discuss] arg list I've shared a document with you called "arg list": http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pE0znztln2kmQruQyplrzeA&inv=arg_discu ss at igda.org It's not an attachment -- it's stored online at Google Docs. To open this document, just click the link above. As mentioned earlier this week, I have begun compiling spreadsheet of ARG's towards getting a listing of the all the brands that have worked with ARGs as well as a listing of independent ARG's for ARGology. Its attached here as an Excel spreadsheet and is very much in the draft stage. I urge one and all to cast an eye over it, correct mistakes and fill any missing info including the many games that I appologise for not including already. Im also open to persuasion about what constituties and ARG as there are likely to be some contentious inclusions. _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss --- Mike Monello Partner, Campfire 62 White Street, 3E New York, NY 10013 212-612-9600 http://www.campfirenyc.com _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From cdena at cross-mediaentertainment.com Wed Apr 8 11:32:46 2009 From: cdena at cross-mediaentertainment.com (Christy Dena) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 01:32:46 +1000 Subject: [arg_discuss] arg list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20090408153249.XOCD13025.nschwotgx03p.mx.bigpond.com@HPPIE> Righto. All those areas of interest sound good. Discuss away! I think Hugh is working on revised versions of the lists anyway. They can happen in tandem with these efforts. Best, Christy -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Brian Clark Sent: Wednesday, 8 April 2009 23:43 To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list I'd argue that perhaps the right first step is try to get the SIG into a conversation: what are the toughest and most commonly encountered roadbumps developers are finding while pitching work? I imagine that would give a pretty good overview of the kinds of things a CMO/marketer/agency focused informational deck might be useful (something that is easy for other developers to incorporate.) I'm always happy to contribute to an effort, but I'm not sure any of us have this so templated that it bypasses a good needs assessment. Which means I'm keenly aware that the roadbumps I encounter might not be the same that others do, but if I had to start the list: * "ARG is just a kind of viral marketing, right?" (what is an ARG gen 3) * "So this is just branding with no measurable results?" (metrics & ARGs) * "I'm not trying to sell my Xs to ARGers!" (activities vs. demographics) * "We're not interested in the 18-24 year old boys who play ARGs!" (real demographics of players) Brian -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Christy Dena Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 7:55 PM To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list Hey Brian, Yep, I hear you. We're all learning. Well, I for one wish more people who have extensive experience and thoughts on the area, like you Brian, would contribute content to ARG SIG initiatives. Mike, Brian, how would you do the Brands ppt? Indeed, would you do the Brands ppt?...because that would rock!! :) Best, Christy -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Brian Clark Sent: Tuesday, 7 April 2009 23:39 To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list Christy wrote: "But I really don't think anyone has a problem with the ARG SIG creating such resources." I have some lingering concerns over the way the white paper was handled in the past, but that's just because we need a clearer vehicle for "SIG creation". Ancient business, water long under the bridge. Christy wrote: "the brands that have commissioned ARGs" See, that's where I think we have different perspectives. It begs both the questions of "what is an ARG" and "what does it mean to commission". Not that I'm any kind of PowerPoint Nazi (pitch what you will), but lending the SIG "authority" (stop snickering, Monello) to something like that feels to me like something that rises to a higher test of objectivity. YMMV. That said, I am really all for this SIG doing something (in fact, I'm confident it could do more than one thing simultaneously) and hate casting myself in the roadblock role. -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Christy Dena Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 7:47 PM To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list I really like the idea of the ppt Mike. It could be uploaded onto SlideShare and embedded on an ARGology page -- so that is easy. And it is something people can easily put into their own slideshows etc. We could have the ARGology & ARG SIG insignia on each slide. As to your question about the intended audience: I'll reveal my initial impetus to share a list of companies/brands that have commissioned ARGs, and anyone can add the goal they think would be helpful. I've found there are some clients (companies, agencies) that are new to ARGs. Shock! Horror! So, I've had production companies contact me, wanting to assist them with helping to win their pitch. Of the many strategies used, is an overview of the brands that have commissioned ARGs. Then I thought, as I usually do, that rather than myself and my own clients being the only ones to benefit from this approach, the whole area could be benefit. It just may help someone get a job. It just may help another ARG be created. That is why I do the ARG stats etc. It helps ARGs get created. But that is also why I create resources on the creative side of things, because I believe they help people see ARGs as an artform too. And yes, there are other things clients need too. That is why, Brooke, I commented to you in Twitter that story summaries, mediums used, length of project, stats, player responses, innovative/stand-out techniques etc would be great in the ARGdb. I've been personally working on this information for a while but the massive and self-correcting knowledge of collective intelligence is the ideal. Anything that assists the craft and industry of ARGs is surely under the purview of the ARG SIG. If not, I can easily work with some folks and put these resources elsewhere. But I really don't think anyone has a problem with the ARG SIG creating such resources. So, let's get on with it! :) Best, Christy -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Michael Monello Sent: Tuesday, 7 April 2009 00:26 To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list Without stepping into the definition issue, I'd like to know what is the goal of this list and who is the audience? Is it a resource to CMOs, brand managers, marketers and potential clients to show them what has done and perhaps inspire more new projects? If so, then I think a more effective approach would be a self-guided, nicely designed PowerPoint presentation that is uploaded, properly tagged, and attributed to the ARG Sig to SlideShare. Something that a forward thinking member of a brand team might be able to present to others would be more effective at the above goal, but I don't know the goal of this exercise. Before we even get into what the content is, we should probably look at who the audience is and then determine what the format/content should be. If I had clarity on at least that level, I feel like I might be able to contribute and I imagine others would as well. Best, -Mike On 4/6/09 10:12 AM, "Brian Clark" wrote: Christy, I guess I just feel like we've been down this road before. Such lists exist or could be supplemented. It includes stuff that could stimulate debate, and doesn't include stuff that could stimulate debate, but doesn't really by itself add much to the body of published knowledge. Cristy wrote: "I'm trying to be diplomatic here and suggesting that a curated listing may do a better job of avoiding the 'what is an ARG' debate." I understand that, but then the curator is cementing the definition anyway by that curation. This is part of what has gotten us into the situation we are, IMHO, and could prove counter-productive. Instead, to me, it feels like clarity to labels is something fairly appropriate for the SIG to tackle ... and the SIG working together on something seems to also be what the SIG needs. What we need is a new way to work on that problem, rather than just another list. Brian -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Christy Dena Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 9:57 AM To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list Hey Brian, Perhaps I wasn't clear. I don't think we should use the list of all the projects Hugh listed. Instead, I'm suggesting a selection of those on Hugh's list and elsewhere. Although there is a lot of disagreement about what qualifies as an ARG, I think we're in agreement that Hugh's list includes non-ARG projects (Hugh was most likely making a broad sweep for the first draft). I'm trying to be diplomatic here and suggesting that a curated listing may do a better job of avoiding the 'what is an ARG' debate. That discussion is important -- and has been a good reawakener, as Brooke says, about the ARGdb -- but a definition of an ARG does not need to be determined for these resources. Best, Christy -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Brian Clark Sent: Monday, 6 April 2009 23:21 To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list Not to take away from Hugh's list at all, but I personally think we're once again dodging what "it is" so you'll end up with "a list of brands that have commissioned something that someone thought was close enough to being an ARG." If: Christy: "The aim is to provide information for companies who are considering commissioning an ARG." How does this help accomplish that? -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Christy Dena Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 8:18 AM To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list Hello Hugh: Well I don't think you expected to have created such controversy! I can see you've done a lot of work in putting that listing together. Fantastic. :) I actually don't think we need to figure out some clustering system for this resource (elsewhere, yes, that would be interesting). The intention behind the Brands resource is to show there are many companies/brands that have commissioned ARGs. What is important therefore is the company/artist and producer or service and how many ARGs they have commissioned. Microsoft, for instance, have commissioned ARGs on several occasions. It is not a listing of ARGs for media properties (eg: A.I.) but the companies that commissioned them (eg: Microsoft). The aim is to provide information for companies who are considering commissioning an ARG. A quick scan through some of my files reveals some big names around the world: McDonalds; Microsoft (Game Studio); NBC; CBS; AudiUSA; Bungie Studios; MTV Brazil; Superinteressante; Deutsche Telekom; EMI Germany; RTL (German Television Broadcaster); Droemer Knaur Verlag (German publisher); Microsoft Germany; Nokia; NBC Universal; Fantasporto (Portugal); Swedish Television (SVT); ABC; Yahoo!7; BBC; Sony; Activision; Electronic Arts; ABC Family Television; General Motors. So, rather than list ALL branded entertainment ARGs (and waddle into the murky water of what is an ARG), I suggest a page that purports to only offering a sampling. The same with the independent ARGs. I think a sample listing of independent ARGs like Sammeeeees, Eldritch Errors, Chasing the Wish and their sequels, Lockjaw, Metacortechs and so on would be enough. The aim of this resource is not to offer a comprehensive listing of independent ARGs (there are other great resources out there as we know!), but to show how ARGs exist outside of branded entertainment...and that there are high-quality, successful and artistically diverse independent ARGs out there! So, what about an arbitrary number, say 15?, of independents that are representative of older and more recent ARGs. Suggestions? This is how I would recommend progressing. Hugh, how do you feel about this approach? I would work with you to assist with the sampling...and whomever else would like to be involved! We could utilize (and cite) yours and existing ARG databases and go from there. Wohoo! Thanks Hugh for taking the time! Best, Christy -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of marcus.helm at gmail.com Sent: Friday, 3 April 2009 21:04 To: arg_discuss at igda.org Subject: [arg_discuss] arg list I've shared a document with you called "arg list": http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pE0znztln2kmQruQyplrzeA&inv=arg_discu ss at igda.org It's not an attachment -- it's stored online at Google Docs. To open this document, just click the link above. As mentioned earlier this week, I have begun compiling spreadsheet of ARG's towards getting a listing of the all the brands that have worked with ARGs as well as a listing of independent ARG's for ARGology. Its attached here as an Excel spreadsheet and is very much in the draft stage. I urge one and all to cast an eye over it, correct mistakes and fill any missing info including the many games that I appologise for not including already. Im also open to persuasion about what constituties and ARG as there are likely to be some contentious inclusions. _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss --- Mike Monello Partner, Campfire 62 White Street, 3E New York, NY 10013 212-612-9600 http://www.campfirenyc.com _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From mmonello at campfirenyc.com Wed Apr 8 11:42:52 2009 From: mmonello at campfirenyc.com (Michael Monello) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 08:42:52 -0700 Subject: [arg_discuss] arg list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I agree with Brian - I think all of the content can come out of focused discussions and I like the inclusive nature of that process. So let's all start by listing the roadblocks: * "ARGs are great for entertainment projects but I have a product to sell." * "Why should I even consider an ARG?" * "I don't want something too complicated/It has to be mass" -Mike On 4/8/09 9:43 AM, "Brian Clark" wrote: I'd argue that perhaps the right first step is try to get the SIG into a conversation: what are the toughest and most commonly encountered roadbumps developers are finding while pitching work? I imagine that would give a pretty good overview of the kinds of things a CMO/marketer/agency focused informational deck might be useful (something that is easy for other developers to incorporate.) I'm always happy to contribute to an effort, but I'm not sure any of us have this so templated that it bypasses a good needs assessment. Which means I'm keenly aware that the roadbumps I encounter might not be the same that others do, but if I had to start the list: * "ARG is just a kind of viral marketing, right?" (what is an ARG gen 3) * "So this is just branding with no measurable results?" (metrics & ARGs) * "I'm not trying to sell my Xs to ARGers!" (activities vs. demographics) * "We're not interested in the 18-24 year old boys who play ARGs!" (real demographics of players) Brian -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Christy Dena Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 7:55 PM To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list Hey Brian, Yep, I hear you. We're all learning. Well, I for one wish more people who have extensive experience and thoughts on the area, like you Brian, would contribute content to ARG SIG initiatives. Mike, Brian, how would you do the Brands ppt? Indeed, would you do the Brands ppt?...because that would rock!! :) Best, Christy -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Brian Clark Sent: Tuesday, 7 April 2009 23:39 To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list Christy wrote: "But I really don't think anyone has a problem with the ARG SIG creating such resources." I have some lingering concerns over the way the white paper was handled in the past, but that's just because we need a clearer vehicle for "SIG creation". Ancient business, water long under the bridge. Christy wrote: "the brands that have commissioned ARGs" See, that's where I think we have different perspectives. It begs both the questions of "what is an ARG" and "what does it mean to commission". Not that I'm any kind of PowerPoint Nazi (pitch what you will), but lending the SIG "authority" (stop snickering, Monello) to something like that feels to me like something that rises to a higher test of objectivity. YMMV. That said, I am really all for this SIG doing something (in fact, I'm confident it could do more than one thing simultaneously) and hate casting myself in the roadblock role. -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Christy Dena Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 7:47 PM To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list I really like the idea of the ppt Mike. It could be uploaded onto SlideShare and embedded on an ARGology page -- so that is easy. And it is something people can easily put into their own slideshows etc. We could have the ARGology & ARG SIG insignia on each slide. As to your question about the intended audience: I'll reveal my initial impetus to share a list of companies/brands that have commissioned ARGs, and anyone can add the goal they think would be helpful. I've found there are some clients (companies, agencies) that are new to ARGs. Shock! Horror! So, I've had production companies contact me, wanting to assist them with helping to win their pitch. Of the many strategies used, is an overview of the brands that have commissioned ARGs. Then I thought, as I usually do, that rather than myself and my own clients being the only ones to benefit from this approach, the whole area could be benefit. It just may help someone get a job. It just may help another ARG be created. That is why I do the ARG stats etc. It helps ARGs get created. But that is also why I create resources on the creative side of things, because I believe they help people see ARGs as an artform too. And yes, there are other things clients need too. That is why, Brooke, I commented to you in Twitter that story summaries, mediums used, length of project, stats, player responses, innovative/stand-out techniques etc would be great in the ARGdb. I've been personally working on this information for a while but the massive and self-correcting knowledge of collective intelligence is the ideal. Anything that assists the craft and industry of ARGs is surely under the purview of the ARG SIG. If not, I can easily work with some folks and put these resources elsewhere. But I really don't think anyone has a problem with the ARG SIG creating such resources. So, let's get on with it! :) Best, Christy -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Michael Monello Sent: Tuesday, 7 April 2009 00:26 To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list Without stepping into the definition issue, I'd like to know what is the goal of this list and who is the audience? Is it a resource to CMOs, brand managers, marketers and potential clients to show them what has done and perhaps inspire more new projects? If so, then I think a more effective approach would be a self-guided, nicely designed PowerPoint presentation that is uploaded, properly tagged, and attributed to the ARG Sig to SlideShare. Something that a forward thinking member of a brand team might be able to present to others would be more effective at the above goal, but I don't know the goal of this exercise. Before we even get into what the content is, we should probably look at who the audience is and then determine what the format/content should be. If I had clarity on at least that level, I feel like I might be able to contribute and I imagine others would as well. Best, -Mike On 4/6/09 10:12 AM, "Brian Clark" wrote: Christy, I guess I just feel like we've been down this road before. Such lists exist or could be supplemented. It includes stuff that could stimulate debate, and doesn't include stuff that could stimulate debate, but doesn't really by itself add much to the body of published knowledge. Cristy wrote: "I'm trying to be diplomatic here and suggesting that a curated listing may do a better job of avoiding the 'what is an ARG' debate." I understand that, but then the curator is cementing the definition anyway by that curation. This is part of what has gotten us into the situation we are, IMHO, and could prove counter-productive. Instead, to me, it feels like clarity to labels is something fairly appropriate for the SIG to tackle ... and the SIG working together on something seems to also be what the SIG needs. What we need is a new way to work on that problem, rather than just another list. Brian -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Christy Dena Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 9:57 AM To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list Hey Brian, Perhaps I wasn't clear. I don't think we should use the list of all the projects Hugh listed. Instead, I'm suggesting a selection of those on Hugh's list and elsewhere. Although there is a lot of disagreement about what qualifies as an ARG, I think we're in agreement that Hugh's list includes non-ARG projects (Hugh was most likely making a broad sweep for the first draft). I'm trying to be diplomatic here and suggesting that a curated listing may do a better job of avoiding the 'what is an ARG' debate. That discussion is important -- and has been a good reawakener, as Brooke says, about the ARGdb -- but a definition of an ARG does not need to be determined for these resources. Best, Christy -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Brian Clark Sent: Monday, 6 April 2009 23:21 To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list Not to take away from Hugh's list at all, but I personally think we're once again dodging what "it is" so you'll end up with "a list of brands that have commissioned something that someone thought was close enough to being an ARG." If: Christy: "The aim is to provide information for companies who are considering commissioning an ARG." How does this help accomplish that? -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Christy Dena Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 8:18 AM To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list Hello Hugh: Well I don't think you expected to have created such controversy! I can see you've done a lot of work in putting that listing together. Fantastic. :) I actually don't think we need to figure out some clustering system for this resource (elsewhere, yes, that would be interesting). The intention behind the Brands resource is to show there are many companies/brands that have commissioned ARGs. What is important therefore is the company/artist and producer or service and how many ARGs they have commissioned. Microsoft, for instance, have commissioned ARGs on several occasions. It is not a listing of ARGs for media properties (eg: A.I.) but the companies that commissioned them (eg: Microsoft). The aim is to provide information for companies who are considering commissioning an ARG. A quick scan through some of my files reveals some big names around the world: McDonalds; Microsoft (Game Studio); NBC; CBS; AudiUSA; Bungie Studios; MTV Brazil; Superinteressante; Deutsche Telekom; EMI Germany; RTL (German Television Broadcaster); Droemer Knaur Verlag (German publisher); Microsoft Germany; Nokia; NBC Universal; Fantasporto (Portugal); Swedish Television (SVT); ABC; Yahoo!7; BBC; Sony; Activision; Electronic Arts; ABC Family Television; General Motors. So, rather than list ALL branded entertainment ARGs (and waddle into the murky water of what is an ARG), I suggest a page that purports to only offering a sampling. The same with the independent ARGs. I think a sample listing of independent ARGs like Sammeeeees, Eldritch Errors, Chasing the Wish and their sequels, Lockjaw, Metacortechs and so on would be enough. The aim of this resource is not to offer a comprehensive listing of independent ARGs (there are other great resources out there as we know!), but to show how ARGs exist outside of branded entertainment...and that there are high-quality, successful and artistically diverse independent ARGs out there! So, what about an arbitrary number, say 15?, of independents that are representative of older and more recent ARGs. Suggestions? This is how I would recommend progressing. Hugh, how do you feel about this approach? I would work with you to assist with the sampling...and whomever else would like to be involved! We could utilize (and cite) yours and existing ARG databases and go from there. Wohoo! Thanks Hugh for taking the time! Best, Christy -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of marcus.helm at gmail.com Sent: Friday, 3 April 2009 21:04 To: arg_discuss at igda.org Subject: [arg_discuss] arg list I've shared a document with you called "arg list": http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pE0znztln2kmQruQyplrzeA&inv=arg_discu ss at igda.org It's not an attachment -- it's stored online at Google Docs. To open this document, just click the link above. As mentioned earlier this week, I have begun compiling spreadsheet of ARG's towards getting a listing of the all the brands that have worked with ARGs as well as a listing of independent ARG's for ARGology. Its attached here as an Excel spreadsheet and is very much in the draft stage. I urge one and all to cast an eye over it, correct mistakes and fill any missing info including the many games that I appologise for not including already. Im also open to persuasion about what constituties and ARG as there are likely to be some contentious inclusions. _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss --- Mike Monello Partner, Campfire 62 White Street, 3E New York, NY 10013 212-612-9600 http://www.campfirenyc.com _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss --- Mike Monello Partner, Campfire 62 White Street, 3E New York, NY 10013 212-612-9600 http://www.campfirenyc.com From cdena at cross-mediaentertainment.com Wed Apr 8 11:55:31 2009 From: cdena at cross-mediaentertainment.com (Christy Dena) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 01:55:31 +1000 Subject: [arg_discuss] arg list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20090408155533.YEZE26071.nschwotgx01p.mx.bigpond.com@HPPIE> Yep, discussions are good. I just noticed after all these years it is hard to get anything but conversation going on here. My attempts to get resources created etc are to compliment, not replace, discussions. I look forward to seeing what you all come up with! Best, Christy -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Michael Monello Sent: Thursday, 9 April 2009 01:43 To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list I agree with Brian - I think all of the content can come out of focused discussions and I like the inclusive nature of that process. So let's all start by listing the roadblocks: * "ARGs are great for entertainment projects but I have a product to sell." * "Why should I even consider an ARG?" * "I don't want something too complicated/It has to be mass" -Mike On 4/8/09 9:43 AM, "Brian Clark" wrote: I'd argue that perhaps the right first step is try to get the SIG into a conversation: what are the toughest and most commonly encountered roadbumps developers are finding while pitching work? I imagine that would give a pretty good overview of the kinds of things a CMO/marketer/agency focused informational deck might be useful (something that is easy for other developers to incorporate.) I'm always happy to contribute to an effort, but I'm not sure any of us have this so templated that it bypasses a good needs assessment. Which means I'm keenly aware that the roadbumps I encounter might not be the same that others do, but if I had to start the list: * "ARG is just a kind of viral marketing, right?" (what is an ARG gen 3) * "So this is just branding with no measurable results?" (metrics & ARGs) * "I'm not trying to sell my Xs to ARGers!" (activities vs. demographics) * "We're not interested in the 18-24 year old boys who play ARGs!" (real demographics of players) Brian -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Christy Dena Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 7:55 PM To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list Hey Brian, Yep, I hear you. We're all learning. Well, I for one wish more people who have extensive experience and thoughts on the area, like you Brian, would contribute content to ARG SIG initiatives. Mike, Brian, how would you do the Brands ppt? Indeed, would you do the Brands ppt?...because that would rock!! :) Best, Christy -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Brian Clark Sent: Tuesday, 7 April 2009 23:39 To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list Christy wrote: "But I really don't think anyone has a problem with the ARG SIG creating such resources." I have some lingering concerns over the way the white paper was handled in the past, but that's just because we need a clearer vehicle for "SIG creation". Ancient business, water long under the bridge. Christy wrote: "the brands that have commissioned ARGs" See, that's where I think we have different perspectives. It begs both the questions of "what is an ARG" and "what does it mean to commission". Not that I'm any kind of PowerPoint Nazi (pitch what you will), but lending the SIG "authority" (stop snickering, Monello) to something like that feels to me like something that rises to a higher test of objectivity. YMMV. That said, I am really all for this SIG doing something (in fact, I'm confident it could do more than one thing simultaneously) and hate casting myself in the roadblock role. -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Christy Dena Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 7:47 PM To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list I really like the idea of the ppt Mike. It could be uploaded onto SlideShare and embedded on an ARGology page -- so that is easy. And it is something people can easily put into their own slideshows etc. We could have the ARGology & ARG SIG insignia on each slide. As to your question about the intended audience: I'll reveal my initial impetus to share a list of companies/brands that have commissioned ARGs, and anyone can add the goal they think would be helpful. I've found there are some clients (companies, agencies) that are new to ARGs. Shock! Horror! So, I've had production companies contact me, wanting to assist them with helping to win their pitch. Of the many strategies used, is an overview of the brands that have commissioned ARGs. Then I thought, as I usually do, that rather than myself and my own clients being the only ones to benefit from this approach, the whole area could be benefit. It just may help someone get a job. It just may help another ARG be created. That is why I do the ARG stats etc. It helps ARGs get created. But that is also why I create resources on the creative side of things, because I believe they help people see ARGs as an artform too. And yes, there are other things clients need too. That is why, Brooke, I commented to you in Twitter that story summaries, mediums used, length of project, stats, player responses, innovative/stand-out techniques etc would be great in the ARGdb. I've been personally working on this information for a while but the massive and self-correcting knowledge of collective intelligence is the ideal. Anything that assists the craft and industry of ARGs is surely under the purview of the ARG SIG. If not, I can easily work with some folks and put these resources elsewhere. But I really don't think anyone has a problem with the ARG SIG creating such resources. So, let's get on with it! :) Best, Christy -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Michael Monello Sent: Tuesday, 7 April 2009 00:26 To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list Without stepping into the definition issue, I'd like to know what is the goal of this list and who is the audience? Is it a resource to CMOs, brand managers, marketers and potential clients to show them what has done and perhaps inspire more new projects? If so, then I think a more effective approach would be a self-guided, nicely designed PowerPoint presentation that is uploaded, properly tagged, and attributed to the ARG Sig to SlideShare. Something that a forward thinking member of a brand team might be able to present to others would be more effective at the above goal, but I don't know the goal of this exercise. Before we even get into what the content is, we should probably look at who the audience is and then determine what the format/content should be. If I had clarity on at least that level, I feel like I might be able to contribute and I imagine others would as well. Best, -Mike On 4/6/09 10:12 AM, "Brian Clark" wrote: Christy, I guess I just feel like we've been down this road before. Such lists exist or could be supplemented. It includes stuff that could stimulate debate, and doesn't include stuff that could stimulate debate, but doesn't really by itself add much to the body of published knowledge. Cristy wrote: "I'm trying to be diplomatic here and suggesting that a curated listing may do a better job of avoiding the 'what is an ARG' debate." I understand that, but then the curator is cementing the definition anyway by that curation. This is part of what has gotten us into the situation we are, IMHO, and could prove counter-productive. Instead, to me, it feels like clarity to labels is something fairly appropriate for the SIG to tackle ... and the SIG working together on something seems to also be what the SIG needs. What we need is a new way to work on that problem, rather than just another list. Brian -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Christy Dena Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 9:57 AM To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list Hey Brian, Perhaps I wasn't clear. I don't think we should use the list of all the projects Hugh listed. Instead, I'm suggesting a selection of those on Hugh's list and elsewhere. Although there is a lot of disagreement about what qualifies as an ARG, I think we're in agreement that Hugh's list includes non-ARG projects (Hugh was most likely making a broad sweep for the first draft). I'm trying to be diplomatic here and suggesting that a curated listing may do a better job of avoiding the 'what is an ARG' debate. That discussion is important -- and has been a good reawakener, as Brooke says, about the ARGdb -- but a definition of an ARG does not need to be determined for these resources. Best, Christy -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Brian Clark Sent: Monday, 6 April 2009 23:21 To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list Not to take away from Hugh's list at all, but I personally think we're once again dodging what "it is" so you'll end up with "a list of brands that have commissioned something that someone thought was close enough to being an ARG." If: Christy: "The aim is to provide information for companies who are considering commissioning an ARG." How does this help accomplish that? -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Christy Dena Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 8:18 AM To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list Hello Hugh: Well I don't think you expected to have created such controversy! I can see you've done a lot of work in putting that listing together. Fantastic. :) I actually don't think we need to figure out some clustering system for this resource (elsewhere, yes, that would be interesting). The intention behind the Brands resource is to show there are many companies/brands that have commissioned ARGs. What is important therefore is the company/artist and producer or service and how many ARGs they have commissioned. Microsoft, for instance, have commissioned ARGs on several occasions. It is not a listing of ARGs for media properties (eg: A.I.) but the companies that commissioned them (eg: Microsoft). The aim is to provide information for companies who are considering commissioning an ARG. A quick scan through some of my files reveals some big names around the world: McDonalds; Microsoft (Game Studio); NBC; CBS; AudiUSA; Bungie Studios; MTV Brazil; Superinteressante; Deutsche Telekom; EMI Germany; RTL (German Television Broadcaster); Droemer Knaur Verlag (German publisher); Microsoft Germany; Nokia; NBC Universal; Fantasporto (Portugal); Swedish Television (SVT); ABC; Yahoo!7; BBC; Sony; Activision; Electronic Arts; ABC Family Television; General Motors. So, rather than list ALL branded entertainment ARGs (and waddle into the murky water of what is an ARG), I suggest a page that purports to only offering a sampling. The same with the independent ARGs. I think a sample listing of independent ARGs like Sammeeeees, Eldritch Errors, Chasing the Wish and their sequels, Lockjaw, Metacortechs and so on would be enough. The aim of this resource is not to offer a comprehensive listing of independent ARGs (there are other great resources out there as we know!), but to show how ARGs exist outside of branded entertainment...and that there are high-quality, successful and artistically diverse independent ARGs out there! So, what about an arbitrary number, say 15?, of independents that are representative of older and more recent ARGs. Suggestions? This is how I would recommend progressing. Hugh, how do you feel about this approach? I would work with you to assist with the sampling...and whomever else would like to be involved! We could utilize (and cite) yours and existing ARG databases and go from there. Wohoo! Thanks Hugh for taking the time! Best, Christy -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of marcus.helm at gmail.com Sent: Friday, 3 April 2009 21:04 To: arg_discuss at igda.org Subject: [arg_discuss] arg list I've shared a document with you called "arg list": http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pE0znztln2kmQruQyplrzeA&inv=arg_discu ss at igda.org It's not an attachment -- it's stored online at Google Docs. To open this document, just click the link above. As mentioned earlier this week, I have begun compiling spreadsheet of ARG's towards getting a listing of the all the brands that have worked with ARGs as well as a listing of independent ARG's for ARGology. Its attached here as an Excel spreadsheet and is very much in the draft stage. I urge one and all to cast an eye over it, correct mistakes and fill any missing info including the many games that I appologise for not including already. Im also open to persuasion about what constituties and ARG as there are likely to be some contentious inclusions. _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss --- Mike Monello Partner, Campfire 62 White Street, 3E New York, NY 10013 212-612-9600 http://www.campfirenyc.com _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss --- Mike Monello Partner, Campfire 62 White Street, 3E New York, NY 10013 212-612-9600 http://www.campfirenyc.com _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From mmonello at campfirenyc.com Wed Apr 8 12:29:17 2009 From: mmonello at campfirenyc.com (Michael Monello) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 09:29:17 -0700 Subject: [arg_discuss] arg list In-Reply-To: <20090408155533.YEZE26071.nschwotgx01p.mx.bigpond.com@HPPIE> Message-ID: I would have preferred you stated that as: "I look forward to creating something great together!" -Mike On 4/8/09 11:55 AM, "Christy Dena" wrote: I look forward to seeing what you all come up with! --- Mike Monello Partner, Campfire 62 White Street, 3E New York, NY 10013 212-612-9600 http://www.campfirenyc.com From bclark at gmdstudios.com Wed Apr 8 12:54:28 2009 From: bclark at gmdstudios.com (Brian Clark) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 12:54:28 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] arg list In-Reply-To: References: <20090408155533.YEZE26071.nschwotgx01p.mx.bigpond.com@HPPIE> Message-ID: <6A03758B68AB47BCA01D596BDE605946@Tricorder> Absolutely! Christy -- a similar list from you would be beneficial, I'm sure you've got some insights if you're helping production companies close the pitches. -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Michael Monello Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2009 12:29 PM To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list I would have preferred you stated that as: "I look forward to creating something great together!" -Mike On 4/8/09 11:55 AM, "Christy Dena" wrote: I look forward to seeing what you all come up with! --- Mike Monello Partner, Campfire 62 White Street, 3E New York, NY 10013 212-612-9600 http://www.campfirenyc.com _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From wendeth at wendydespain.com Wed Apr 8 13:38:02 2009 From: wendeth at wendydespain.com (Wendy Despain) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 10:38:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [arg_discuss] arg list In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5e67d849102300f134932e5c598221b8.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> Here are mine: * "ARGs cost too much/take too much time for what you get." (ROI) * "Other people in this segment aren't using ARGs. We don't have the time/interest/money to innovate when it comes to marketing." * "Other people in this segment have used ARGs and it didn't get them anywhere useful." * "Those ideas are too out-there. Let's do X (traditional, un-ARGish thing) and call it an ARG so we look cool without taking any real risk." * "We were going to do an ARG, but we lost some funding due to the economy and the folks holding the money bags now want us to focus on the basics." * "If ARGs were really successful, it wouldn't be so hard to get real data about them." * "ARGs are a fad. We don't want to be seen as following fads." * "We don't want to pull a hoax on people, or risk making our audience angry." (For example: The most recent episode of the TV show House killed off a main character. Fox put up an official memorial page for _the character_, including an obituary and memorial video. There were plenty of comments around the web from people saying this was in bad taste because the actor didn't die. Yes, they were confounding the actor and the character, but they were still angry.) * "ARGs are preaching to the choir. We're trying to reach a broader audience, not just the people who already know about us." That's all I can come up with off the top of my head. It looks like people have given me lots of excuses for not doing ARGs I've pitched them, but in reality I've been having lots of conversations with people about why they don't use ARGs, and these are the answers I've been given. Only a few of them were real reasons given to real pitches. :-) Wendy Despain quantumcontent.com On Wed, April 8, 2009 8:42 am, Michael Monello wrote: > * "ARGs are great for entertainment projects but I have a product to > sell." > * "Why should I even consider an ARG?" > * "I don't want something too complicated/It has to be mass" > * "ARG is just a kind of viral marketing, right?" (what is an ARG gen > 3) > * "So this is just branding with no measurable results?" (metrics & > ARGs) > * "I'm not trying to sell my Xs to ARGers!" (activities vs. > demographics) > * "We're not interested in the 18-24 year old boys who play ARGs!" > (real > demographics of players) From bbakiogl at gmail.com Wed Apr 8 13:48:12 2009 From: bbakiogl at gmail.com (Burcu Bakioglu) Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 13:48:12 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] arg list In-Reply-To: References: <20090408155533.YEZE26071.nschwotgx01p.mx.bigpond.com@HPPIE> Message-ID: LOL, Mike I think that was Dena's *exit* cue... *wink* *wink* burcu On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 12:29 PM, Michael Monello wrote: > I would have preferred you stated that as: > > "I look forward to creating something great together!" > > -Mike > > > On 4/8/09 11:55 AM, "Christy Dena" > wrote: > > I look forward to seeing what you all come up with! > > > --- > Mike Monello > Partner, Campfire > 62 White Street, 3E > New York, NY 10013 > 212-612-9600 > http://www.campfirenyc.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > -- Thanks, Burcu S. Bakioglu Ph.D. Candidate, Indiana University http://www.palefirer.com http://palefirer.com/blog/ Skype: PaleFireR AIM: PaleFireR -- "Congratulations! You're the first human to fail the Turing test." From cdena at cross-mediaentertainment.com Wed Apr 8 20:29:37 2009 From: cdena at cross-mediaentertainment.com (Christy Dena) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 10:29:37 +1000 Subject: [arg_discuss] arg list In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20090409002940.MCXP26071.nschwotgx01p.mx.bigpond.com@HPPIE> Haha! Good pick up Burcu. Yeah, the problem is, I just don't have the time. The only reason I pop in every now and then in my *spare time* is because I want to help the ARG SIG actually do things. I choose things like list resources to create because they can be quickly actionable by anyone who is keen (so it isn't just me but the SIG) and provide value to others immediately. Just to get the 'we can create stuff' wave rolling. As for discussing what developers need to get over the line, go for it!! I'll pop in and add my 2c too! I just won't be here every day. :) Remember too, that it is not just developers that need help. Agencies and (non ARG developer) production houses also pitch these projects to brands etc. Good ideas are already coming forward from the lists Brian and Wendy have come up with. Wohoo! Best, Christy -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Burcu Bakioglu Sent: Thursday, 9 April 2009 03:48 To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] arg list LOL, Mike I think that was Dena's *exit* cue... *wink* *wink* burcu On Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 12:29 PM, Michael Monello wrote: > I would have preferred you stated that as: > > "I look forward to creating something great together!" > > -Mike > > > On 4/8/09 11:55 AM, "Christy Dena" > wrote: > > I look forward to seeing what you all come up with! > > > --- > Mike Monello > Partner, Campfire > 62 White Street, 3E > New York, NY 10013 > 212-612-9600 > http://www.campfirenyc.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > -- Thanks, Burcu S. Bakioglu Ph.D. Candidate, Indiana University http://www.palefirer.com http://palefirer.com/blog/ Skype: PaleFireR AIM: PaleFireR -- "Congratulations! You're the first human to fail the Turing test." _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From brooke at mirlandano.com Thu Apr 9 13:56:36 2009 From: brooke at mirlandano.com (Brooke Thompson) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 13:56:36 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Giving credit where credit is due (ARGdb credits) Message-ID: <1C6E6751-6694-476C-B9ED-5FDCC55B591A@mirlandano.com> One of the great things about ARGdb is that it's a place to list credits for the various games. Now, of course, many are unpublished and may never be published, but it sure is nice to get credit for your work and this might encourage more campaigns to publish such things or, at least, send them to us. However, as there have been no standards for this stuff, I'm finding it to be quite a challenge (and opportunity!). For practical purposes (ie a tangle of relational databases), we need to have some sort of standardized system and I'm looking for your thoughts and suggestions. My current idea is to group them by a basic type and then let the actual titles be flexible. So, it might look something like this: Created by FirstName LastName --- Creator FirstName LastName --- CCO Produced by FirstName LastName --- Producer FirstName LastName --- Assistant Producer FirstName LastName --- Live Event Coordinator FirstName LastName --- Location Scout FirstName LastName --- Production Assistant Written by FirstName LastName --- Lead Writer FirstName LastName --- Story Writer FirstName LastName --- Copy Writer Game Designed by FirstName LastName --- Lead Designer FirstName LastName --- Puzzle Guru FirstName LastName --- Mind Bender Actor FirstName LastName --- CharacterName (blog) FirstName LastName --- CharacterName (video) FirstName LastName --- CharacterName (live) Internet FirstName LastName --- Technical Lead FirstName LastName --- Design Lead FirstName LastName --- Web Wizard FirstName LastName --- Art Geek Video FirstName LastName --- Videographer Audio FirstName LastName --- Sound guy Other FirstName LastName --- Whatever FirstName LastName --- Whatever else Thanks FirstName LastName --- The dude that didn't really do anything we can list but inspired us all Are there subheadings/groups that are missing? Is this too formal for your wacky independent sensibilities? Does it seem like a good approach? For those of you that deal more directly with the clients, would this setup be flexible enough to allow the necessary blending of the various teams? From bclark at gmdstudios.com Thu Apr 9 14:03:36 2009 From: bclark at gmdstudios.com (Brian Clark) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 14:03:36 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Giving credit where credit is due (ARGdb credits) In-Reply-To: <1C6E6751-6694-476C-B9ED-5FDCC55B591A@mirlandano.com> References: <1C6E6751-6694-476C-B9ED-5FDCC55B591A@mirlandano.com> Message-ID: <039940A33DD84357B046170572D2E9BE@Tricorder> Do awards come with this? If not, you stepping into a hornets nest if you're setting the titles of positions: I don't think games are all staffed alike. I mean, how many times can you put Jan Libby's name in the entry before it becomes ironically hilarious? Meanwhile, we'll pit the video team against each other to the death to determine who gets the lone video credit (so that they don't instead go and murder 2 of the 3 writers credited.) Maybe you want it more freeform, but with a field of set values like created/produced/written etc. to categorize each one? -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Brooke Thompson Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 1:57 PM To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG Subject: [arg_discuss] Giving credit where credit is due (ARGdb credits) One of the great things about ARGdb is that it's a place to list credits for the various games. Now, of course, many are unpublished and may never be published, but it sure is nice to get credit for your work and this might encourage more campaigns to publish such things or, at least, send them to us. However, as there have been no standards for this stuff, I'm finding it to be quite a challenge (and opportunity!). For practical purposes (ie a tangle of relational databases), we need to have some sort of standardized system and I'm looking for your thoughts and suggestions. My current idea is to group them by a basic type and then let the actual titles be flexible. So, it might look something like this: Created by FirstName LastName --- Creator FirstName LastName --- CCO Produced by FirstName LastName --- Producer FirstName LastName --- Assistant Producer FirstName LastName --- Live Event Coordinator FirstName LastName --- Location Scout FirstName LastName --- Production Assistant Written by FirstName LastName --- Lead Writer FirstName LastName --- Story Writer FirstName LastName --- Copy Writer Game Designed by FirstName LastName --- Lead Designer FirstName LastName --- Puzzle Guru FirstName LastName --- Mind Bender Actor FirstName LastName --- CharacterName (blog) FirstName LastName --- CharacterName (video) FirstName LastName --- CharacterName (live) Internet FirstName LastName --- Technical Lead FirstName LastName --- Design Lead FirstName LastName --- Web Wizard FirstName LastName --- Art Geek Video FirstName LastName --- Videographer Audio FirstName LastName --- Sound guy Other FirstName LastName --- Whatever FirstName LastName --- Whatever else Thanks FirstName LastName --- The dude that didn't really do anything we can list but inspired us all Are there subheadings/groups that are missing? Is this too formal for your wacky independent sensibilities? Does it seem like a good approach? For those of you that deal more directly with the clients, would this setup be flexible enough to allow the necessary blending of the various teams? _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From adam.m.s.martin at googlemail.com Thu Apr 9 14:38:11 2009 From: adam.m.s.martin at googlemail.com (Adam Martin) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 19:38:11 +0100 Subject: [arg_discuss] Giving credit where credit is due (ARGdb credits) In-Reply-To: <1C6E6751-6694-476C-B9ED-5FDCC55B591A@mirlandano.com> References: <1C6E6751-6694-476C-B9ED-5FDCC55B591A@mirlandano.com> Message-ID: 2009/4/9 Brooke Thompson : > One of the great things about ARGdb is that it's a place to list credits for > the various games. Now, of course, many are unpublished and may never be > published, but it sure is nice to get credit for your work and this might > encourage more campaigns to publish such things or, at least, send them to > us. However, as there have been no standards for this stuff, I'm finding it > to be quite a challenge (and opportunity!). > > For practical purposes (ie a tangle of relational databases), we need to > have some sort of standardized system and I'm looking for your thoughts and > suggestions. My current idea is to group them by a basic type and then let > the actual titles be flexible. So, it might look something like this: As Brian points out, official titles is an issue I think it's best to avoid. My impression was that there are already many fundamentally-different organizational structures for groups that make ARGs. Your "created/produced/written/desgined/actor/internet/video/etc" doesn't fit for ones that I can think of off the top of my head. To illustrate how bad this is, I've seen cases where two people had identical job titles at different companies but completely different jobs on the actual project. How do you deal with that? :( As an aside, for mainstream games, IIRC we're just about at the point where you can confidently say: the individual was a: "Programmer, Artist, Designer, Producer, or 'other'" and the company they worked for was a: "Development Studio, Publisher, or 'other'" ...and beyond that it breaks down into chaos, even within (!) companies, let alone looking across companies, let alone looking across genres. (note: the above 4-way and 3-way splits aren't even agreed upon, they have serious issues (e.g. 3d modellers don't like being lumped with concept art teams who never work on the game, writers do not see themselves as designers, programmers dismiss out of hand the core-technology teams, and where does QA sit?)) c.f. the Credit Standards Committee from the IGDA that's been working on this issue for a while now - but last time I looked, they ended up having an overload of titles with no way to work out equivalence. I don't think you can do much better without causing many extra problems. Adam From dflor71 at gmail.com Thu Apr 9 14:40:33 2009 From: dflor71 at gmail.com (David Flor) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 14:40:33 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Giving credit where credit is due (ARGdb credits) In-Reply-To: <039940A33DD84357B046170572D2E9BE@Tricorder> References: <1C6E6751-6694-476C-B9ED-5FDCC55B591A@mirlandano.com> <039940A33DD84357B046170572D2E9BE@Tricorder> Message-ID: <50b4b0580904091140l1eb35410q231b1e4e0ca4a3a4@mail.gmail.com> I might as well mention, however odd this may seem, but I know of at least one PM that doesn't use his real name anywhere (which also happens to be a one word name), and is *very* adamant and cautious about revealing his/her identity. And, me personally, in some cases I would prefer to list my company credentials than my individual name; I'm trying to run a business here, and I'd rather the corporate image gets the cred rather than little ol' me. Tnx & Rgds... David Flor Darklight Interactive "Omne ignotum pro magnifico" On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 2:03 PM, Brian Clark wrote: > Do awards come with this? If not, you stepping into a hornets nest if you're > setting the titles of positions: I don't think games are all staffed alike. > I mean, how many times can you put Jan Libby's name in the entry before it > becomes ironically hilarious? Meanwhile, we'll pit the video team against > each other to the death to determine who gets the lone video credit (so that > they don't instead go and murder 2 of the 3 writers credited.) > > Maybe you want it more freeform, but with a field of set values like > created/produced/written etc. to categorize each one? > > -----Original Message----- > From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On > Behalf Of Brooke Thompson > Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 1:57 PM > To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG > Subject: [arg_discuss] Giving credit where credit is due (ARGdb credits) > > One of the great things about ARGdb is that it's a place to list > credits for the various games. Now, of course, many are unpublished > and may never be published, but it sure is nice to get credit for your > work and this might encourage more campaigns to publish such things > or, at least, send them to us. However, as there have been no > standards for this stuff, I'm finding it to be quite a challenge (and > opportunity!). > > For practical purposes (ie a tangle of relational databases), we need > to have some sort of standardized system and I'm looking for your > thoughts and suggestions. My current idea is to group them by a basic > type and then let the actual titles be flexible. So, it might look > something like this: > > Created by > FirstName LastName --- Creator > FirstName LastName --- CCO > > Produced by > FirstName LastName --- Producer > FirstName LastName --- Assistant Producer > FirstName LastName --- Live Event Coordinator > FirstName LastName --- Location Scout > FirstName LastName --- Production Assistant > > Written by > FirstName LastName --- Lead Writer > FirstName LastName --- Story Writer > FirstName LastName --- Copy Writer > > Game Designed by > FirstName LastName --- Lead Designer > FirstName LastName --- Puzzle Guru > FirstName LastName --- Mind Bender > > Actor > FirstName LastName --- CharacterName (blog) > FirstName LastName --- CharacterName (video) > FirstName LastName --- CharacterName (live) > > Internet > FirstName LastName --- Technical Lead > FirstName LastName --- Design Lead > FirstName LastName --- Web Wizard > FirstName LastName --- Art Geek > > Video > FirstName LastName --- Videographer > > Audio > FirstName LastName --- Sound guy > > Other > FirstName LastName --- Whatever > FirstName LastName --- Whatever else > > Thanks > FirstName LastName --- The dude that didn't really do anything we can > list but inspired us all > > > Are there subheadings/groups that are missing? Is this too formal for > your wacky independent sensibilities? Does it seem like a good > approach? For those of you that deal more directly with the clients, > would this setup be flexible enough to allow the necessary blending of > the various teams? > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > From jeromy at 12thstreethouse.com Thu Apr 9 15:20:25 2009 From: jeromy at 12thstreethouse.com (Jeromy Barber) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 14:20:25 -0500 Subject: [arg_discuss] [meta] Introductions Message-ID: <002d01c9b948$3c42bb80$b4c83280$@com> Hello! I'm Jeromy Barber, and I made a small indie game in 2007 called Maddison Atkins (www.maddisonatkins.com). I run a commercial production company in Nacogdoches, TX called East Texas Video. When I moved to East Texas from New York City in 2005, where I was producing independent film, I found the internet as an easy distribution solution for my work and ARGs an incredible genre to work in. Cassie is Watching was the gateway drug for me, and soon after, I tried my hand at it. There is a small community that follows my game (about 70) that is largely not connected with the hardcore ARG community. Currently, I'm prepping a new leg of Maddison Atkins to launch soon. My background is in music, acting, education and film production. After graduating from Baylor University with my degree in Music Education (voice), I acted professionally in NYC for about 5 years doing commercials and comedy with Second City. Eventually, I discovered my calling as a producer and spent a few years making small films in the city. I never taught music in a school, but here in Texas, I play in a band called The Mustn'ts with my lovely partner Vicki. It's kind of an indie folk thing, and I have a CD with the incredible musician David Morrison called "All Kinds of Wrong." I think that covers it. I hope that's less than 250 words! J Jeromy From brooke at mirlandano.com Thu Apr 9 15:27:03 2009 From: brooke at mirlandano.com (Brooke Thompson) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 15:27:03 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Giving credit where credit is due (ARGdb credits) In-Reply-To: <50b4b0580904091140l1eb35410q231b1e4e0ca4a3a4@mail.gmail.com> References: <1C6E6751-6694-476C-B9ED-5FDCC55B591A@mirlandano.com> <039940A33DD84357B046170572D2E9BE@Tricorder> <50b4b0580904091140l1eb35410q231b1e4e0ca4a3a4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <63557267-6A4C-4DB2-8EC2-E3E1546F5B3D@mirlandano.com> I didn't realize that there was such an aversion to people getting (and giving) credit for work. Is this a recent trend? When ARGdb was first announced way back when, it was announced as "the IMDB of ARGs" and most of the feedback was exceptionally positive on the idea of credits and having a place for games to list the company & folks that worked on them. To David's concern - if someone doesn't ever tell us their name, don't worry, they won't get listed. I'm not out to take away anyone's aura of mystery or whatever. And it's not out of the realm of possibility that someone would be listed only by an alias - more than a few folks are only listed by the unfiction username as that is what was submitted or provided on the official credits list. To Adam & Brian's concerns - ARGdb would not be giving people the credit or the title. Those would be submitted and/or ganked from places where they were listed officially - for example, I took the Eldritch credits from the developers blog. Any title is given by the team (or whoever on the team wrote the credits). I was merely attempting to put some semblance of order to the groupings and, for those that submitted credits to the site, those subheading would exist for them to choose from but how they titled and ordered the people that they put under those subheadings would be up to them. So, picking on Jan since Brian started it... the database wouldn't care if someone wanted to list Jan one time or twenty times, it wouldn't care if they wanted to call her "creator" or "crazy lady" or both - it would only care to put her and her provided title under some subheading. To Adam's point of credits on work and credits on the job being different - that happens frequently, in my experience. I've seen people at a company where their company title might be "Mr. PoopyPants" but on a game they might be titled "Batman" and on another game they might be titled "Spiderman" while their title at work never changed - just there degree or type of involvement on the projects. They would be credited on the ARGdb game listings by Batman or Spiderman or whatever title that they were given for the specific game. But, wow, I gotta admit that I'm shocked by the "whoa! careful! credits = bad" feedback. I'd have thought, especially based on the earlier responses, that people would be pleased by this. I will take all of your concerns very much into consideration. However, I do feel that this is an important thing to do not only for historical records sort of purposes, but also to make sure that people can retain credit for their work. On Apr 9, 2009, at 2:40 PM, David Flor wrote: > I might as well mention, however odd this may seem, but I know of at > least one PM that doesn't use his real name anywhere (which also > happens to be a one word name), and is *very* adamant and cautious > about revealing his/her identity. > > And, me personally, in some cases I would prefer to list my company > credentials than my individual name; I'm trying to run a business > here, and I'd rather the corporate image gets the cred rather than > little ol' me. > > Tnx & Rgds... > David Flor > Darklight Interactive > > "Omne ignotum pro magnifico" > > On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 2:03 PM, Brian Clark > wrote: >> Do awards come with this? If not, you stepping into a hornets nest >> if you're >> setting the titles of positions: I don't think games are all >> staffed alike. >> I mean, how many times can you put Jan Libby's name in the entry >> before it >> becomes ironically hilarious? Meanwhile, we'll pit the video team >> against >> each other to the death to determine who gets the lone video credit >> (so that >> they don't instead go and murder 2 of the 3 writers credited.) >> >> Maybe you want it more freeform, but with a field of set values like >> created/produced/written etc. to categorize each one? >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org >> ] On >> Behalf Of Brooke Thompson >> Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 1:57 PM >> To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG >> Subject: [arg_discuss] Giving credit where credit is due (ARGdb >> credits) >> >> One of the great things about ARGdb is that it's a place to list >> credits for the various games. Now, of course, many are unpublished >> and may never be published, but it sure is nice to get credit for >> your >> work and this might encourage more campaigns to publish such things >> or, at least, send them to us. However, as there have been no >> standards for this stuff, I'm finding it to be quite a challenge (and >> opportunity!). >> >> For practical purposes (ie a tangle of relational databases), we need >> to have some sort of standardized system and I'm looking for your >> thoughts and suggestions. My current idea is to group them by a basic >> type and then let the actual titles be flexible. So, it might look >> something like this: >> >> Created by >> FirstName LastName --- Creator >> FirstName LastName --- CCO >> >> Produced by >> FirstName LastName --- Producer >> FirstName LastName --- Assistant Producer >> FirstName LastName --- Live Event Coordinator >> FirstName LastName --- Location Scout >> FirstName LastName --- Production Assistant >> >> Written by >> FirstName LastName --- Lead Writer >> FirstName LastName --- Story Writer >> FirstName LastName --- Copy Writer >> >> Game Designed by >> FirstName LastName --- Lead Designer >> FirstName LastName --- Puzzle Guru >> FirstName LastName --- Mind Bender >> >> Actor >> FirstName LastName --- CharacterName (blog) >> FirstName LastName --- CharacterName (video) >> FirstName LastName --- CharacterName (live) >> >> Internet >> FirstName LastName --- Technical Lead >> FirstName LastName --- Design Lead >> FirstName LastName --- Web Wizard >> FirstName LastName --- Art Geek >> >> Video >> FirstName LastName --- Videographer >> >> Audio >> FirstName LastName --- Sound guy >> >> Other >> FirstName LastName --- Whatever >> FirstName LastName --- Whatever else >> >> Thanks >> FirstName LastName --- The dude that didn't really do anything we can >> list but inspired us all >> >> >> Are there subheadings/groups that are missing? Is this too formal for >> your wacky independent sensibilities? Does it seem like a good >> approach? For those of you that deal more directly with the clients, >> would this setup be flexible enough to allow the necessary blending >> of >> the various teams? >> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >> > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From bbakiogl at gmail.com Thu Apr 9 15:31:23 2009 From: bbakiogl at gmail.com (Burcu Bakioglu) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 15:31:23 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] [meta] Introductions Message-ID: <49de4cfe.1f588c0a.6058.ffffe689@mx.google.com> Hey Jeromy, nice to see you here too. Didn't realize that u were involved with CiW. Would love to chat with you about that ARG some time soon, will e-mail you in private. burcu -----Original Message----- From: Jeromy Barber Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 3:20 PM To: arg_discuss at igda.org Subject: [arg_discuss] [meta] Introductions Hello! I'm Jeromy Barber, and I made a small indie game in 2007 called Maddison Atkins (www.maddisonatkins.com). I run a commercial production company in Nacogdoches, TX called East Texas Video. When I moved to East Texas from New York City in 2005, where I was producing independent film, I found the internet as an easy distribution solution for my work and ARGs an incredible genre to work in. Cassie is Watching was the gateway drug for me, and soon after, I tried my hand at it. There is a small community that follows my game (about 70) that is largely not connected with the hardcore ARG community. Currently, I'm prepping a new leg of Maddison Atkins to launch soon. My background is in music, acting, education and film production. After graduating from Baylor University with my degree in Music Education (voice), I acted professionally in NYC for about 5 years doing commercials and comedy with Second City. Eventually, I discovered my calling as a producer and spent a few years making small films in the city. I never taught music in a school, but here in Texas, I play in a band called The Mustn'ts with my lovely partner Vicki. It's kind of an indie folk thing, and I have a CD with the incredible musician David Morrison called "All Kinds of Wrong." I think that covers it. I hope that's less than 250 words! J Jeromy _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From bclark at gmdstudios.com Thu Apr 9 15:33:55 2009 From: bclark at gmdstudios.com (Brian Clark) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 15:33:55 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Giving credit where credit is due (ARGdb credits) In-Reply-To: <63557267-6A4C-4DB2-8EC2-E3E1546F5B3D@mirlandano.com> References: <1C6E6751-6694-476C-B9ED-5FDCC55B591A@mirlandano.com><039940A33DD84357B046170572D2E9BE@Tricorder><50b4b0580904091140l1eb35410q231b1e4e0ca4a3a4@mail.gmail.com> <63557267-6A4C-4DB2-8EC2-E3E1546F5B3D@mirlandano.com> Message-ID: <61CC05CD75514178BCF17EA7E2D2B0CE@Tricorder> My point was really just "locking categories into stone or number of credit per category" was potentially bad :) Credit? GUD! -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Brooke Thompson Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 3:27 PM To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] Giving credit where credit is due (ARGdb credits) I didn't realize that there was such an aversion to people getting (and giving) credit for work. Is this a recent trend? When ARGdb was first announced way back when, it was announced as "the IMDB of ARGs" and most of the feedback was exceptionally positive on the idea of credits and having a place for games to list the company & folks that worked on them. To David's concern - if someone doesn't ever tell us their name, don't worry, they won't get listed. I'm not out to take away anyone's aura of mystery or whatever. And it's not out of the realm of possibility that someone would be listed only by an alias - more than a few folks are only listed by the unfiction username as that is what was submitted or provided on the official credits list. To Adam & Brian's concerns - ARGdb would not be giving people the credit or the title. Those would be submitted and/or ganked from places where they were listed officially - for example, I took the Eldritch credits from the developers blog. Any title is given by the team (or whoever on the team wrote the credits). I was merely attempting to put some semblance of order to the groupings and, for those that submitted credits to the site, those subheading would exist for them to choose from but how they titled and ordered the people that they put under those subheadings would be up to them. So, picking on Jan since Brian started it... the database wouldn't care if someone wanted to list Jan one time or twenty times, it wouldn't care if they wanted to call her "creator" or "crazy lady" or both - it would only care to put her and her provided title under some subheading. To Adam's point of credits on work and credits on the job being different - that happens frequently, in my experience. I've seen people at a company where their company title might be "Mr. PoopyPants" but on a game they might be titled "Batman" and on another game they might be titled "Spiderman" while their title at work never changed - just there degree or type of involvement on the projects. They would be credited on the ARGdb game listings by Batman or Spiderman or whatever title that they were given for the specific game. But, wow, I gotta admit that I'm shocked by the "whoa! careful! credits = bad" feedback. I'd have thought, especially based on the earlier responses, that people would be pleased by this. I will take all of your concerns very much into consideration. However, I do feel that this is an important thing to do not only for historical records sort of purposes, but also to make sure that people can retain credit for their work. On Apr 9, 2009, at 2:40 PM, David Flor wrote: > I might as well mention, however odd this may seem, but I know of at > least one PM that doesn't use his real name anywhere (which also > happens to be a one word name), and is *very* adamant and cautious > about revealing his/her identity. > > And, me personally, in some cases I would prefer to list my company > credentials than my individual name; I'm trying to run a business > here, and I'd rather the corporate image gets the cred rather than > little ol' me. > > Tnx & Rgds... > David Flor > Darklight Interactive > > "Omne ignotum pro magnifico" > > On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 2:03 PM, Brian Clark > wrote: >> Do awards come with this? If not, you stepping into a hornets nest >> if you're >> setting the titles of positions: I don't think games are all >> staffed alike. >> I mean, how many times can you put Jan Libby's name in the entry >> before it >> becomes ironically hilarious? Meanwhile, we'll pit the video team >> against >> each other to the death to determine who gets the lone video credit >> (so that >> they don't instead go and murder 2 of the 3 writers credited.) >> >> Maybe you want it more freeform, but with a field of set values like >> created/produced/written etc. to categorize each one? >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org >> ] On >> Behalf Of Brooke Thompson >> Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 1:57 PM >> To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG >> Subject: [arg_discuss] Giving credit where credit is due (ARGdb >> credits) >> >> One of the great things about ARGdb is that it's a place to list >> credits for the various games. Now, of course, many are unpublished >> and may never be published, but it sure is nice to get credit for >> your >> work and this might encourage more campaigns to publish such things >> or, at least, send them to us. However, as there have been no >> standards for this stuff, I'm finding it to be quite a challenge (and >> opportunity!). >> >> For practical purposes (ie a tangle of relational databases), we need >> to have some sort of standardized system and I'm looking for your >> thoughts and suggestions. My current idea is to group them by a basic >> type and then let the actual titles be flexible. So, it might look >> something like this: >> >> Created by >> FirstName LastName --- Creator >> FirstName LastName --- CCO >> >> Produced by >> FirstName LastName --- Producer >> FirstName LastName --- Assistant Producer >> FirstName LastName --- Live Event Coordinator >> FirstName LastName --- Location Scout >> FirstName LastName --- Production Assistant >> >> Written by >> FirstName LastName --- Lead Writer >> FirstName LastName --- Story Writer >> FirstName LastName --- Copy Writer >> >> Game Designed by >> FirstName LastName --- Lead Designer >> FirstName LastName --- Puzzle Guru >> FirstName LastName --- Mind Bender >> >> Actor >> FirstName LastName --- CharacterName (blog) >> FirstName LastName --- CharacterName (video) >> FirstName LastName --- CharacterName (live) >> >> Internet >> FirstName LastName --- Technical Lead >> FirstName LastName --- Design Lead >> FirstName LastName --- Web Wizard >> FirstName LastName --- Art Geek >> >> Video >> FirstName LastName --- Videographer >> >> Audio >> FirstName LastName --- Sound guy >> >> Other >> FirstName LastName --- Whatever >> FirstName LastName --- Whatever else >> >> Thanks >> FirstName LastName --- The dude that didn't really do anything we can >> list but inspired us all >> >> >> Are there subheadings/groups that are missing? Is this too formal for >> your wacky independent sensibilities? Does it seem like a good >> approach? For those of you that deal more directly with the clients, >> would this setup be flexible enough to allow the necessary blending >> of >> the various teams? >> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >> > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From scpeters at gmail.com Thu Apr 9 15:34:11 2009 From: scpeters at gmail.com (Steve Peters) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 12:34:11 -0700 Subject: [arg_discuss] Giving credit where credit is due (ARGdb credits) In-Reply-To: <63557267-6A4C-4DB2-8EC2-E3E1546F5B3D@mirlandano.com> Message-ID: My two cents would be to maybe do what similar sites do, in that there's a field for the person's name and a pulldown menu of typical titles, including an "other" that can be filled in for stuff not covered in the menu. That way, things can still be cross-indexed. For what it's worth, I think credits are a very important thing (for very specific reasons), but maybe that comes from my music background. :) Credits of record need to be published for projects, because if they're not, not only do the talented teams working on things never get known, but people could take credit for roles they never played. Shocking, I know. ;) And it's Poopiepants, not Poopypants. On 4/9/09 12:27 PM, "Brooke Thompson" wrote: > I didn't realize that there was such an aversion to people getting > (and giving) credit for work. Is this a recent trend? When ARGdb was > first announced way back when, it was announced as "the IMDB of ARGs" > and most of the feedback was exceptionally positive on the idea of > credits and having a place for games to list the company & folks that > worked on them. > > To David's concern - if someone doesn't ever tell us their name, don't > worry, they won't get listed. I'm not out to take away anyone's aura > of mystery or whatever. And it's not out of the realm of possibility > that someone would be listed only by an alias - more than a few folks > are only listed by the unfiction username as that is what was > submitted or provided on the official credits list. > > To Adam & Brian's concerns - ARGdb would not be giving people the > credit or the title. Those would be submitted and/or ganked from > places where they were listed officially - for example, I took the > Eldritch credits from the developers blog. Any title is given by the > team (or whoever on the team wrote the credits). I was merely > attempting to put some semblance of order to the groupings and, for > those that submitted credits to the site, those subheading would exist > for them to choose from but how they titled and ordered the people > that they put under those subheadings would be up to them. So, picking > on Jan since Brian started it... the database wouldn't care if someone > wanted to list Jan one time or twenty times, it wouldn't care if they > wanted to call her "creator" or "crazy lady" or both - it would only > care to put her and her provided title under some subheading. > > To Adam's point of credits on work and credits on the job being > different - that happens frequently, in my experience. I've seen > people at a company where their company title might be "Mr. > PoopyPants" but on a game they might be titled "Batman" and on another > game they might be titled "Spiderman" while their title at work never > changed - just there degree or type of involvement on the projects. > They would be credited on the ARGdb game listings by Batman or > Spiderman or whatever title that they were given for the specific game. > > But, wow, I gotta admit that I'm shocked by the "whoa! careful! > credits = bad" feedback. I'd have thought, especially based on the > earlier responses, that people would be pleased by this. I will take > all of your concerns very much into consideration. However, I do feel > that this is an important thing to do not only for historical records > sort of purposes, but also to make sure that people can retain credit > for their work. > > > > > On Apr 9, 2009, at 2:40 PM, David Flor wrote: > >> I might as well mention, however odd this may seem, but I know of at >> least one PM that doesn't use his real name anywhere (which also >> happens to be a one word name), and is *very* adamant and cautious >> about revealing his/her identity. >> >> And, me personally, in some cases I would prefer to list my company >> credentials than my individual name; I'm trying to run a business >> here, and I'd rather the corporate image gets the cred rather than >> little ol' me. >> >> Tnx & Rgds... >> David Flor >> Darklight Interactive >> >> "Omne ignotum pro magnifico" >> >> On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 2:03 PM, Brian Clark >> wrote: >>> Do awards come with this? If not, you stepping into a hornets nest >>> if you're >>> setting the titles of positions: I don't think games are all >>> staffed alike. >>> I mean, how many times can you put Jan Libby's name in the entry >>> before it >>> becomes ironically hilarious? Meanwhile, we'll pit the video team >>> against >>> each other to the death to determine who gets the lone video credit >>> (so that >>> they don't instead go and murder 2 of the 3 writers credited.) >>> >>> Maybe you want it more freeform, but with a field of set values like >>> created/produced/written etc. to categorize each one? >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org >>> ] On >>> Behalf Of Brooke Thompson >>> Sent: Thursday, April 09, 2009 1:57 PM >>> To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG >>> Subject: [arg_discuss] Giving credit where credit is due (ARGdb >>> credits) >>> >>> One of the great things about ARGdb is that it's a place to list >>> credits for the various games. Now, of course, many are unpublished >>> and may never be published, but it sure is nice to get credit for >>> your >>> work and this might encourage more campaigns to publish such things >>> or, at least, send them to us. However, as there have been no >>> standards for this stuff, I'm finding it to be quite a challenge (and >>> opportunity!). >>> >>> For practical purposes (ie a tangle of relational databases), we need >>> to have some sort of standardized system and I'm looking for your >>> thoughts and suggestions. My current idea is to group them by a basic >>> type and then let the actual titles be flexible. So, it might look >>> something like this: >>> >>> Created by >>> FirstName LastName --- Creator >>> FirstName LastName --- CCO >>> >>> Produced by >>> FirstName LastName --- Producer >>> FirstName LastName --- Assistant Producer >>> FirstName LastName --- Live Event Coordinator >>> FirstName LastName --- Location Scout >>> FirstName LastName --- Production Assistant >>> >>> Written by >>> FirstName LastName --- Lead Writer >>> FirstName LastName --- Story Writer >>> FirstName LastName --- Copy Writer >>> >>> Game Designed by >>> FirstName LastName --- Lead Designer >>> FirstName LastName --- Puzzle Guru >>> FirstName LastName --- Mind Bender >>> >>> Actor >>> FirstName LastName --- CharacterName (blog) >>> FirstName LastName --- CharacterName (video) >>> FirstName LastName --- CharacterName (live) >>> >>> Internet >>> FirstName LastName --- Technical Lead >>> FirstName LastName --- Design Lead >>> FirstName LastName --- Web Wizard >>> FirstName LastName --- Art Geek >>> >>> Video >>> FirstName LastName --- Videographer >>> >>> Audio >>> FirstName LastName --- Sound guy >>> >>> Other >>> FirstName LastName --- Whatever >>> FirstName LastName --- Whatever else >>> >>> Thanks >>> FirstName LastName --- The dude that didn't really do anything we can >>> list but inspired us all >>> >>> >>> Are there subheadings/groups that are missing? Is this too formal for >>> your wacky independent sensibilities? Does it seem like a good >>> approach? For those of you that deal more directly with the clients, >>> would this setup be flexible enough to allow the necessary blending >>> of >>> the various teams? >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ARG_Discuss mailing list >>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ARG_Discuss mailing list >>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From scpeters at gmail.com Thu Apr 9 16:09:52 2009 From: scpeters at gmail.com (Steve Peters) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 13:09:52 -0700 Subject: [arg_discuss] Giving credit where credit is due (ARGdb credits) In-Reply-To: <50b4b0580904091140l1eb35410q231b1e4e0ca4a3a4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In my thinking, credits are for individuals. The company can always be listed in addition (is there a field for this? Dunno I haven't actually entered anything from scratch, yet). The whole point of credits is to list the individuals behind something. I want to see the team behind a project, that's the important stuff, more than what company they were working for at the time. People may come, people may go (from company to company), but their credits remain, and it's the *people* I'm interested in, what they've worked on and what roles they've played. I'd think very carefully about just listing a single company credit over individuals' contributions, even if it is "just lil' ol' you." Transparency is good. So is teambuilding. :) Steve -------------------- Steve Peters Founder, No Mimes Media http://www.nomimes.com mobile: 818.422.4898 steve at nomimes.com twitter: vpisteve 34.183042,-118.281252 On 4/9/09 11:40 AM, "David Flor" wrote: > I might as well mention, however odd this may seem, but I know of at > least one PM that doesn't use his real name anywhere (which also > happens to be a one word name), and is *very* adamant and cautious > about revealing his/her identity. > > And, me personally, in some cases I would prefer to list my company > credentials than my individual name; I'm trying to run a business > here, and I'd rather the corporate image gets the cred rather than > little ol' me. > > Tnx & Rgds... > David Flor > Darklight Interactive > > "Omne ignotum pro magnifico" > > On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 2:03 PM, Brian Clark wrote: From agent.lex at gmail.com Thu Apr 9 16:20:15 2009 From: agent.lex at gmail.com (Agent Lex) Date: Thu, 09 Apr 2009 21:20:15 +0100 Subject: [arg_discuss] Giving credit where credit is due (ARGdb credits) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49DE587F.5060103@gmail.com> To draw the comparison back to imdb, let's analyse a typical imdb general page. This one: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0086999/ First, identifiable images from the movie. Not sure if we'd have an ARGdb equivalent, so let's move on. Then, the user star rating, and the imdb-patent "popularity" rating. Now our first names, the director and writer(s), followed by other general information on the movie that would be applicable to all movies, e.g. release date. Then the cast (no company yet...). Then additional details, and right at the bottom of thaaaaat... "Company: Cannon Films" (finally, links to other pages on the movie, and user reviews) What does this say? imdb agrees with Steve, the people are more important than the company involved. - Lex, making useless emails here since 2008! Steve Peters wrote: > In my thinking, credits are for individuals. The company can always be > listed in addition (is there a field for this? Dunno I haven't actually > entered anything from scratch, yet). > > The whole point of credits is to list the individuals behind something. I > want to see the team behind a project, that's the important stuff, more than > what company they were working for at the time. People may come, people may > go (from company to company), but their credits remain, and it's the > *people* I'm interested in, what they've worked on and what roles they've > played. > > I'd think very carefully about just listing a single company credit over > individuals' contributions, even if it is "just lil' ol' you." Transparency > is good. So is teambuilding. :) > > > Steve > > > -------------------- > Steve Peters > Founder, No Mimes Media > http://www.nomimes.com > mobile: 818.422.4898 > steve at nomimes.com > twitter: vpisteve > 34.183042,-118.281252 > > On 4/9/09 11:40 AM, "David Flor" wrote: > > >> I might as well mention, however odd this may seem, but I know of at >> least one PM that doesn't use his real name anywhere (which also >> happens to be a one word name), and is *very* adamant and cautious >> about revealing his/her identity. >> >> And, me personally, in some cases I would prefer to list my company >> credentials than my individual name; I'm trying to run a business >> here, and I'd rather the corporate image gets the cred rather than >> little ol' me. >> >> Tnx & Rgds... >> David Flor >> Darklight Interactive >> >> "Omne ignotum pro magnifico" >> >> On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 2:03 PM, Brian Clark wrote: >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > From brooke at mirlandano.com Thu Apr 9 19:42:06 2009 From: brooke at mirlandano.com (Brooke Thompson) Date: Thu, 9 Apr 2009 19:42:06 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Giving credit where credit is due (ARGdb credits) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45A174E7-65D8-4EDA-A41D-311720C6CC69@mirlandano.com> Yes, each game has field for: Game Title & an image Date Started - Date Concluded PM Team (this will likely be reworded to... something) About Plot Summary Meta Websites Game Websites Credits It is then automagically linked to press articles (currently, this is only press articles with full text in the ARGdb database), players that have played (and their ratings, favorite quotes, and memories from the game). Eventually, they'll also be linked to Events. For example... Eldritch Errors: http://argdb.com/game/180/ you'll see that none of the players have linked themselves to the game yet (ahem!) but it's fairly well filled out otherwise. You'll also see about 1/3 of the credits and what propelled me to bring the credits issue up to the list - it's going to be a mess without some sort of order. Sure, not all projects will have as big a team, but some ARG productions are quite large and I expect that we'll see even larger teams in the future. Lockjaw: http://argdb.com/game/7/ The plot & about haven't been written yet, but you can see player's remarks and how those show up on the page. (plus, it's fun for me to go back and look at my first game ;)) On Apr 9, 2009, at 4:09 PM, Steve Peters wrote: > In my thinking, credits are for individuals. The company can always be > listed in addition (is there a field for this? Dunno I haven't > actually > entered anything from scratch, yet). > > The whole point of credits is to list the individuals behind > something. I > want to see the team behind a project, that's the important stuff, > more than > what company they were working for at the time. People may come, > people may > go (from company to company), but their credits remain, and it's the > *people* I'm interested in, what they've worked on and what roles > they've > played. > > I'd think very carefully about just listing a single company credit > over > individuals' contributions, even if it is "just lil' ol' you." > Transparency > is good. So is teambuilding. :) > > > Steve > > > -------------------- > Steve Peters > Founder, No Mimes Media > http://www.nomimes.com > mobile: 818.422.4898 > steve at nomimes.com > twitter: vpisteve > 34.183042,-118.281252 > > On 4/9/09 11:40 AM, "David Flor" wrote: > >> I might as well mention, however odd this may seem, but I know of at >> least one PM that doesn't use his real name anywhere (which also >> happens to be a one word name), and is *very* adamant and cautious >> about revealing his/her identity. >> >> And, me personally, in some cases I would prefer to list my company >> credentials than my individual name; I'm trying to run a business >> here, and I'd rather the corporate image gets the cred rather than >> little ol' me. >> >> Tnx & Rgds... >> David Flor >> Darklight Interactive >> >> "Omne ignotum pro magnifico" >> >> On Thu, Apr 9, 2009 at 2:03 PM, Brian Clark >> wrote: > > > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From marcus.helm at gmail.com Fri Apr 10 07:18:07 2009 From: marcus.helm at gmail.com (Hugh Davies) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 21:18:07 +1000 Subject: [arg_discuss] arg list In-Reply-To: <5e67d849102300f134932e5c598221b8.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> References: <5e67d849102300f134932e5c598221b8.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> Message-ID: <4ca6fcda0904100418m48d4008fk90e8426854d51cca@mail.gmail.com> Here are concerns expressed to me by groups i have pitched ARG's at: How proven are ARG's as either effective marketing tools or entertainment? What is the proven outlay to success ratio? How do we ensure that the games direction / narrative is not hijacked by antagonistic players? Isnt there a danger of fraud if people mistake the ARG for truth and cant we be sued for damages if things go wrong? Does anyone actually get ARG's? >From an experience design POV, ARG's have a lot of room for people to become bored or distracted from playing them? Were'nt ARG's cool about 3 years ago - what new ideas do you have? hugh From bclark at gmdstudios.com Fri Apr 10 13:41:24 2009 From: bclark at gmdstudios.com (Brian Clark) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 13:41:24 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] common roadblocks describing ARGs? In-Reply-To: <4ca6fcda0904100418m48d4008fk90e8426854d51cca@mail.gmail.com> References: <5e67d849102300f134932e5c598221b8.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> <4ca6fcda0904100418m48d4008fk90e8426854d51cca@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2C42C0C6E5584D20B86065A2E3F0126B@Tricorder> So I think what we're looking for is, "what are the kind of questions evangelists of the genre are confronted with getting others to buy into an idea." The goal from that would be to develop something that helps answer those questions, whatever the context of that is (ie, this isn't just about marketing ARGs.) The first step, though, is getting people to share those kind of "roadblock" questions they encounter. A few people responded in the other thread, and I've tried to break those questions into at least preliminary categories. What would you add? WHAT IS IT, HOW DOES IT WORK * "Why should I even consider an ARG?" * "ARG is just a kind of viral marketing, right?" * "ARGs are a fad. We don't want to be seen as following fads." * "Does anyone actually get ARGs?" * "Weren't ARG's cool about 3 years ago - what new ideas do you have?" MARKETING & ENTERTAINMENT * "ARGs are great for entertainment projects but I have a product to sell." * "We don't want to pull a hoax on people, or risk making our audience angry." * "How do we ensure that the games direction / narrative is not hijacked by antagonistic players?" * "Isnt there a danger of fraud if people mistake the ARG for truth and cant we be sued for damages if things go wrong?" MEASUREMENT & RESULTS * "How proven are ARG's as either effective marketing tools or entertainment?" * "So this is just branding with no measurable results?" * "ARGs cost too much/take too much time for what you get." * "If ARGs were really successful, it wouldn't be so hard to get real data about them." * "What is the proven outlay to success ratio?" DEMOGRAPHICS * "I'm not trying to sell my Xs to ARGers!" * "We're not interested in the 18-24 year old boys who play ARGs!" * "I don't want something too complicated/It has to be mass" * "ARGs are preaching to the choir. We're trying to reach a broader audience, not just the people who already know about us." ROADBLOCKS * "Other people in this segment aren't using ARGs. We don't have the time/interest/money to innovate when it comes to marketing." * "Other people in this segment have used ARGs and it didn't get them anywhere useful." * "Those ideas are too out-there. Let's do X (traditional, un-ARGish thing) and call it an ARG so we look cool without taking any real risk." * "We were going to do an ARG, but we lost some funding due to the economy and the folks holding the money bags now want us to focus on the basics." From bclark at gmdstudios.com Fri Apr 10 14:15:07 2009 From: bclark at gmdstudios.com (Brian Clark) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 14:15:07 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] You're so Emo! In-Reply-To: <4ca6fcda0904100418m48d4008fk90e8426854d51cca@mail.gmail.com> References: <5e67d849102300f134932e5c598221b8.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> <4ca6fcda0904100418m48d4008fk90e8426854d51cca@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: So our discussions here boiled over into the ARGNetcast broadcast: http://www.argnetcast.com/2009/04/arg-netcast-episode-84-two-queens/ And from there culminated into a declaration of my peevedness for baby carrots: http://brianclarkslatestpeeve.com/ It is a really smart discussion by some really smart people (the netcast, not the peeves), which makes me ask myself whether I'm sometimes opaque about the arguments I'm making (BABY CARROTS!) So inspired by ARGN, I'd like to offer up a more affirmative definition of what ARG is from my point of view. ARG is so Emo. A community of fans essentially labeled the work of a few bands Emo. Then they started pointing to new bands appearing and going, "Yup, that's Emo." Other bands were influenced by that, and proudly declared themselves Emo. Some of the artists labeled as Emo think the whole concept is complete bullshit, many others identified with other musical influences than Emo. Each new artist in the general neighborhood influences the overall dimensions of the definition, and each new work of those artists revives the debate. The longer time went, the more impossible it became to define Emo at all, as it fractured into personal definitions of "I like X. X is Emo. I like Y, therefore Y is Emo or Emoish". ARG is almost exactly like that. That's fine: that's the argument that ARG is a genre. Genres are almost always named after the fact by the community of fans. Some of us wish ARG was so indie, which is essentially a hope that the label (or replacement) was a movement instead of a genre. In the indie film world, there is a diversity of genres but a shared perspective and similar methodology among filmmakers. Indie is how you get it done, not what you get done. Indie teaches each other, and supports a broad diversity of equally valid reasons for making work. One of the features of a movement is constant reinvention. The debate, "What is indie?" is a constant feature of that film community, "What is ARG?" is a constant debate here. That's a desired feature in a movement, versus a genre (where the question is "Is that an ARG?"), and the community of people who practice will always desire some "terms of art" to help us communicate (so labels and the debate about them are good.) During the netcast, they were critiqued by their IRC chat room that they were trying to find a term that would include "SF0, Top Secret Dance Off and Eldritch Errors." Or maybe it was Eagle Eye packed in there too. I actually think that is exactly the goal: as a practitioner I see more things in common than different between them, even though Spacebass argued only EE was "technically an ARG" in that set. That works for me too ... I always had to accept the word of others which works in my portfolio were "technically an ARG" and rarely designed for it. So what is that broader category? Or maybe it's just Emo ... stretch the definition of ARG as genre expectation changes? Maybe now they'll change my latest peeve to "Emo Finger Monkey" (http://www.sonnyradio.com/fingermonkey1.jpg) instead of "Baby Carrots"? Brian From brooke at mirlandano.com Fri Apr 10 18:09:19 2009 From: brooke at mirlandano.com (Brooke Thompson) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 18:09:19 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] common roadblocks describing ARGs? In-Reply-To: <2C42C0C6E5584D20B86065A2E3F0126B@Tricorder> References: <5e67d849102300f134932e5c598221b8.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> <4ca6fcda0904100418m48d4008fk90e8426854d51cca@mail.gmail.com> <2C42C0C6E5584D20B86065A2E3F0126B@Tricorder> Message-ID: <965FD246-ACF0-4A6F-8472-25CB2C39A522@mirlandano.com> > ROADBLOCKS > * "Other people in this segment aren't using ARGs. We don't have the > time/interest/money to innovate when it comes to marketing." There is the counter question to this about are the questions of whether there are too many ARGs and if the audience is too small to support another one. I haven't run across that much (course, I don't often pitch to marketing or promotions types), but I have heard that concern in talking about ARGs with various people, especially when the talk goes to the more deeply engaged audience feeding the casual experience. > As a note - thanks for pulling those together Brian. I'm eager to hear what questions others have come across and, more so, some of the different ways people answer & approach the answers to them (will it differ and how for the different backgrounds). I think I'll learn quite a bit, yay! I can't wait to hear from some of the others :) From brooke at mirlandano.com Fri Apr 10 18:19:38 2009 From: brooke at mirlandano.com (Brooke Thompson) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 18:19:38 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] You're so Emo! In-Reply-To: References: <5e67d849102300f134932e5c598221b8.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> <4ca6fcda0904100418m48d4008fk90e8426854d51cca@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I've got to admit, that was one of the more enjoyable netcasts for me and my minds been going since. The Emo analogy is interesting and ties in with where my thoughts have been going... is ARG the umbrella term? And, the more personal... am I finally becoming ok with the idea of ARG being the umbrella? and, of course, the obsessive soul searching concerns of why I feel such a strong need to control this term when I usually prefer more fluid, dynamic, and organic things... is it a question of my identity, which I alluded to in the podcast by saying that I just want to know what it is that I do. So, perhaps Emo is the *perfect* analogy :) On Apr 10, 2009, at 2:15 PM, Brian Clark wrote: > So our discussions here boiled over into the ARGNetcast broadcast: > > http://www.argnetcast.com/2009/04/arg-netcast-episode-84-two-queens/ > > And from there culminated into a declaration of my peevedness for baby > carrots: > > http://brianclarkslatestpeeve.com/ > > It is a really smart discussion by some really smart people (the > netcast, > not the peeves), which makes me ask myself whether I'm sometimes > opaque > about the arguments I'm making (BABY CARROTS!) So inspired by ARGN, > I'd like > to offer up a more affirmative definition of what ARG is from my > point of > view. > > ARG is so Emo. > > A community of fans essentially labeled the work of a few bands Emo. > Then > they started pointing to new bands appearing and going, "Yup, that's > Emo." > Other bands were influenced by that, and proudly declared themselves > Emo. > Some of the artists labeled as Emo think the whole concept is complete > bullshit, many others identified with other musical influences than > Emo. > Each new artist in the general neighborhood influences the overall > dimensions of the definition, and each new work of those artists > revives the > debate. The longer time went, the more impossible it became to > define Emo at > all, as it fractured into personal definitions of "I like X. X is > Emo. I > like Y, therefore Y is Emo or Emoish". > > ARG is almost exactly like that. > > That's fine: that's the argument that ARG is a genre. Genres are > almost > always named after the fact by the community of fans. > > Some of us wish ARG was so indie, which is essentially a hope that > the label > (or replacement) was a movement instead of a genre. In the indie > film world, > there is a diversity of genres but a shared perspective and similar > methodology among filmmakers. Indie is how you get it done, not what > you get > done. Indie teaches each other, and supports a broad diversity of > equally > valid reasons for making work. > > One of the features of a movement is constant reinvention. The > debate, "What > is indie?" is a constant feature of that film community, "What is > ARG?" is a > constant debate here. That's a desired feature in a movement, versus > a genre > (where the question is "Is that an ARG?"), and the community of > people who > practice will always desire some "terms of art" to help us > communicate (so > labels and the debate about them are good.) > > During the netcast, they were critiqued by their IRC chat room that > they > were trying to find a term that would include "SF0, Top Secret Dance > Off and > Eldritch Errors." Or maybe it was Eagle Eye packed in there too. I > actually > think that is exactly the goal: as a practitioner I see more things in > common than different between them, even though Spacebass argued > only EE was > "technically an ARG" in that set. That works for me too ... I always > had to > accept the word of others which works in my portfolio were > "technically an > ARG" and rarely designed for it. So what is that broader category? > > Or maybe it's just Emo ... stretch the definition of ARG as genre > expectation changes? > > Maybe now they'll change my latest peeve to "Emo Finger Monkey" > (http://www.sonnyradio.com/fingermonkey1.jpg) instead of "Baby > Carrots"? > > > > > Brian > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From mmonello at campfirenyc.com Fri Apr 10 21:26:05 2009 From: mmonello at campfirenyc.com (Michael Monello) Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 18:26:05 -0700 Subject: [arg_discuss] You're so Emo! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I think there are two issues mashed up here. One about what to call the thing that we are making/enjoying/ that is an umbrella term and can accommodate many different shapes/styles/genres underneath it, and the other is actually defining what an Alternate Reality Game is. I don't believe there is consensus on either, but I may be mistaken -- is there a definition of what an "Alternate Reality Game" is that I can use to measure whether something is one? As for the umbrella term, we all recognize what a book is. According to Wikipedia: "A book is a set or collection of written, printed, illustrated, or blank sheets, made of paper, parchment, or other material, usually fastened together to hinge at one side." Now, a book may be a graphic novel or trade paperback or horror anthology or poetry collection or romance, but there's no argument that it is a "book," and if I point to a car and say that it is a book, there is nothing to discuss, as I would clearly be wrong under the definition of what a book is. So, if "Alternate Reality Game" is the umbrella term, then are Eagle Eye, SF0, Top Secret Dance Off, Eldritch Errors, and Blair Witch Project all ARGs? I'm not looking for opinions, discussion, or debate on this, but whether they pass or fail the definition of an ARG, much the same way that we could all agree that The Bible, Women by Charles Bukowski, and Watchmen by Alan Moore are all books. (BTW, I've always wanted a reason to put the Bible and anything by Charles Bukowski on the same list) If there is a true definition then we should be able to point to any project and say, as a statement of fact, agree on whether they are ARGs or not. The discussions about whether one or the other is a comedy or poetry might be fuzzier, but there should be consensus on it being a "book." That, to me, is what I mean by an umbrella term, and my interest in one has absolutely nothing to do with needing to sell ARGs to clients as characterized by the ARGNetcast. I don't have any problem selling what Campfire does to clients even in this down economy, so please don't assume I'm acting out of self-interest. I believe that an umbrella term would be helpful in capturing the full extent of what has been done in the past, and (much) more importantly, what can be done in the future. "Book" is not a restrictive term - it can have puzzles, it can be a game or treasure hunt, like Masquerade, or it can be blank. Does "Alternate Reality Game" pass that test? Now, I get that this is the IGDA here, and I understand this could be read as bristling against the term "game" but I'm not "anti-game," not even close. I'm questioning whether the umbrella term we are looking for should define it as a game or not, and the truth is, I go back and forth on it. Maybe not all the projects I listed above should be contained under the umbrella term, and maybe that would make settling on an umbrella term an easier task. I do think that if our umbrella term requires that it be a game, then we are talking about a genre and not an entirely new form of art or entertainment (although of course it can be art and they are hopefully all entertaining). And I also acknowledge that if the umbrella term does embrace all these non-game forms that ultimately THIS group is about discussing the "game" variety, but this is probably the largest list of people working in the space and I think it is a fair discussion to have here. That being said, I also don't want to hold the list hostage to this discussion. Truthfully, if no one on the list is interested in this topic then I'd rather talk it over with Brian over drinks at the bar than in front of disinterested spectators, so I won't engage in this discussion further unless the other, silent members of the list take part and push it further, one way or the other. Whew. I really don't generally get tied up in semantic discussions, as I am far from an academic, but I am interested in this for what it means to the burgeoning form. If Brian is right, and ARGs are Emo (and I think he is right), then ARGs are going to be marginalized like Emo, and all the other great stuff that doesn't fit the definition of ARGs and all the things you can do in the space will in the future will be seen as something else, not ARGs, and then ARGs and the people who champion them and define their work in that way will be marginalized into that genre ghetto. As the ARGNetcast folks noted, almost every company associated with commercial ARGs has already backed away from the term, and not because they don't like it but because that marginalization is already happening. Are we filmmakers or are we horror filmmakers? Are we storytellers or are we romance writers? Are we game designers or are we alternate reality game designers? What are we? This existential crisis brought to you by: Mike On 4/10/09 6:19 PM, "Brooke Thompson" wrote: I've got to admit, that was one of the more enjoyable netcasts for me and my minds been going since. The Emo analogy is interesting and ties in with where my thoughts have been going... is ARG the umbrella term? And, the more personal... am I finally becoming ok with the idea of ARG being the umbrella? and, of course, the obsessive soul searching concerns of why I feel such a strong need to control this term when I usually prefer more fluid, dynamic, and organic things... is it a question of my identity, which I alluded to in the podcast by saying that I just want to know what it is that I do. So, perhaps Emo is the *perfect* analogy :) On Apr 10, 2009, at 2:15 PM, Brian Clark wrote: > So our discussions here boiled over into the ARGNetcast broadcast: > > http://www.argnetcast.com/2009/04/arg-netcast-episode-84-two-queens/ > > And from there culminated into a declaration of my peevedness for baby > carrots: > > http://brianclarkslatestpeeve.com/ > > It is a really smart discussion by some really smart people (the > netcast, > not the peeves), which makes me ask myself whether I'm sometimes > opaque > about the arguments I'm making (BABY CARROTS!) So inspired by ARGN, > I'd like > to offer up a more affirmative definition of what ARG is from my > point of > view. > > ARG is so Emo. > > A community of fans essentially labeled the work of a few bands Emo. > Then > they started pointing to new bands appearing and going, "Yup, that's > Emo." > Other bands were influenced by that, and proudly declared themselves > Emo. > Some of the artists labeled as Emo think the whole concept is complete > bullshit, many others identified with other musical influences than > Emo. > Each new artist in the general neighborhood influences the overall > dimensions of the definition, and each new work of those artists > revives the > debate. The longer time went, the more impossible it became to > define Emo at > all, as it fractured into personal definitions of "I like X. X is > Emo. I > like Y, therefore Y is Emo or Emoish". > > ARG is almost exactly like that. > > That's fine: that's the argument that ARG is a genre. Genres are > almost > always named after the fact by the community of fans. > > Some of us wish ARG was so indie, which is essentially a hope that > the label > (or replacement) was a movement instead of a genre. In the indie > film world, > there is a diversity of genres but a shared perspective and similar > methodology among filmmakers. Indie is how you get it done, not what > you get > done. Indie teaches each other, and supports a broad diversity of > equally > valid reasons for making work. > > One of the features of a movement is constant reinvention. The > debate, "What > is indie?" is a constant feature of that film community, "What is > ARG?" is a > constant debate here. That's a desired feature in a movement, versus > a genre > (where the question is "Is that an ARG?"), and the community of > people who > practice will always desire some "terms of art" to help us > communicate (so > labels and the debate about them are good.) > > During the netcast, they were critiqued by their IRC chat room that > they > were trying to find a term that would include "SF0, Top Secret Dance > Off and > Eldritch Errors." Or maybe it was Eagle Eye packed in there too. I > actually > think that is exactly the goal: as a practitioner I see more things in > common than different between them, even though Spacebass argued > only EE was > "technically an ARG" in that set. That works for me too ... I always > had to > accept the word of others which works in my portfolio were > "technically an > ARG" and rarely designed for it. So what is that broader category? > > Or maybe it's just Emo ... stretch the definition of ARG as genre > expectation changes? > > Maybe now they'll change my latest peeve to "Emo Finger Monkey" > (http://www.sonnyradio.com/fingermonkey1.jpg) instead of "Baby > Carrots"? > > > > > Brian > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss --- Mike Monello Partner, Campfire http://www.campfirenyc.com From marcus.helm at gmail.com Sat Apr 11 04:40:04 2009 From: marcus.helm at gmail.com (Hugh Davies) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 18:40:04 +1000 Subject: [arg_discuss] You're so Emo! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4ca6fcda0904110140r31be03f7pe47b869d210bb271@mail.gmail.com> I for one am interested. But for my own, I tend to be resigned to use ARG as an umbrella term. Agreed, its far from ideal but im happy to let future generations look back and consider what and indeed if a better definition is needed. After all: Do video games all really use video? How many players do you actually need to constitute an MMORPG? Does answering these questions actually improve the game experiences, or discussion or analysis of them? Taking up Mikes previous comment:* there are two issues mashed up here. One about what to call the thing that we are making/enjoying/ that is an umbrella term and can accommodate many different shapes/styles/genres underneath it, and the other is actually defining what an Alternate Reality Game is. * Well said. I see this as the same issues approached in different ways. Using your book example Mike, we could we say: 1: What is a book? 2: How do we define a collection of written, printed, illustrated, or blank sheets of paper, parchment, or other material, fastened together to hinge at one side? In this example, both questions answer eachother. Ergo, are we just Emoing ourselves away the by haggling over what constitutes an ARG? After all, according to http://www.etymonline.com/ the history of the word book is: "beech" (cf. Ger. Buch "book" Buche "beech;" the notion being of beechwood tablets on which runes were inscribed), but may be from the tree itself (people still carve initials in them).Perhaps we just need to agree on a very broad definition of an ARG so that we can exclude things such as The Bible, Women by Charles Bukowski, and Watchmen - although im also prepared to argue that the Bible and Watchmen could be considered part of the ARG field. Im not familiar with Women by Charles Bukowski. hugh On Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 11:26 AM, Michael Monello wrote: > I think there are two issues mashed up here. One about what to call the > thing that we are making/enjoying/ that is an umbrella term and can > accommodate many different shapes/styles/genres underneath it, and the other > is actually defining what an Alternate Reality Game is. I don't believe > there is consensus on either, but I may be mistaken -- is there a definition > of what an "Alternate Reality Game" is that I can use to measure whether > something is one? > > As for the umbrella term, we all recognize what a book is. According to > Wikipedia: > "A book is a set or collection of written, printed, illustrated, or blank > sheets, made of paper, parchment, or other material, usually fastened > together to hinge at one side." > > Now, a book may be a graphic novel or trade paperback or horror anthology > or poetry collection or romance, but there's no argument that it is a > "book," and if I point to a car and say that it is a book, there is nothing > to discuss, as I would clearly be wrong under the definition of what a book > is. > > So, if "Alternate Reality Game" is the umbrella term, then are Eagle Eye, > SF0, Top Secret Dance Off, Eldritch Errors, and Blair Witch Project all > ARGs? I'm not looking for opinions, discussion, or debate on this, but > whether they pass or fail the definition of an ARG, much the same way that > we could all agree that The Bible, Women by Charles Bukowski, and Watchmen > by Alan Moore are all books. (BTW, I've always wanted a reason to put the > Bible and anything by Charles Bukowski on the same list) If there is a true > definition then we should be able to point to any project and say, as a > statement of fact, agree on whether they are ARGs or not. The discussions > about whether one or the other is a comedy or poetry might be fuzzier, but > there should be consensus on it being a "book." That, to me, is what I mean > by an umbrella term, and my interest in one has absolutely nothing to do > with needing to sell ARGs to clients as characterized by the ARGNetcast. I > don't have any problem selli > ng what Campfire does to clients even in this down economy, so please > don't assume I'm acting out of self-interest. I believe that an umbrella > term would be helpful in capturing the full extent of what has been done in > the past, and (much) more importantly, what can be done in the future. > "Book" is not a restrictive term - it can have puzzles, it can be a game or > treasure hunt, like Masquerade, or it can be blank. Does "Alternate Reality > Game" pass that test? > > Now, I get that this is the IGDA here, and I understand this could be read > as bristling against the term "game" but I'm not "anti-game," not even > close. I'm questioning whether the umbrella term we are looking for should > define it as a game or not, and the truth is, I go back and forth on it. > Maybe not all the projects I listed above should be contained under the > umbrella term, and maybe that would make settling on an umbrella term an > easier task. I do think that if our umbrella term requires that it be a > game, then we are talking about a genre and not an entirely new form of art > or entertainment (although of course it can be art and they are hopefully > all entertaining). And I also acknowledge that if the umbrella term does > embrace all these non-game forms that ultimately THIS group is about > discussing the "game" variety, but this is probably the largest list of > people working in the space and I think it is a fair discussion to have > here. > > That being said, I also don't want to hold the list hostage to this > discussion. Truthfully, if no one on the list is interested in this topic > then I'd rather talk it over with Brian over drinks at the bar than in front > of disinterested spectators, so I won't engage in this discussion further > unless the other, silent members of the list take part and push it further, > one way or the other. > > Whew. I really don't generally get tied up in semantic discussions, as I am > far from an academic, but I am interested in this for what it means to the > burgeoning form. If Brian is right, and ARGs are Emo (and I think he is > right), then ARGs are going to be marginalized like Emo, and all the other > great stuff that doesn't fit the definition of ARGs and all the things you > can do in the space will in the future will be seen as something else, not > ARGs, and then ARGs and the people who champion them and define their work > in that way will be marginalized into that genre ghetto. As the ARGNetcast > folks noted, almost every company associated with commercial ARGs has > already backed away from the term, and not because they don't like it but > because that marginalization is already happening. > > Are we filmmakers or are we horror filmmakers? Are we storytellers or are > we romance writers? Are we game designers or are we alternate reality game > designers? What are we? > > This existential crisis brought to you by: > > Mike > > On 4/10/09 6:19 PM, "Brooke Thompson" wrote: > > I've got to admit, that was one of the more enjoyable netcasts for me > and my minds been going since. The Emo analogy is interesting and ties > in with where my thoughts have been going... is ARG the umbrella term? > > And, the more personal... am I finally becoming ok with the idea of > ARG being the umbrella? and, of course, the obsessive soul searching > concerns of why I feel such a strong need to control this term when I > usually prefer more fluid, dynamic, and organic things... is it a > question of my identity, which I alluded to in the podcast by saying > that I just want to know what it is that I do. So, perhaps Emo is the > *perfect* analogy :) > > > > On Apr 10, 2009, at 2:15 PM, Brian Clark wrote: > > > So our discussions here boiled over into the ARGNetcast broadcast: > > > > http://www.argnetcast.com/2009/04/arg-netcast-episode-84-two-queens/ > > > > And from there culminated into a declaration of my peevedness for baby > > carrots: > > > > http://brianclarkslatestpeeve.com/ > > > > It is a really smart discussion by some really smart people (the > > netcast, > > not the peeves), which makes me ask myself whether I'm sometimes > > opaque > > about the arguments I'm making (BABY CARROTS!) So inspired by ARGN, > > I'd like > > to offer up a more affirmative definition of what ARG is from my > > point of > > view. > > > > ARG is so Emo. > > > > A community of fans essentially labeled the work of a few bands Emo. > > Then > > they started pointing to new bands appearing and going, "Yup, that's > > Emo." > > Other bands were influenced by that, and proudly declared themselves > > Emo. > > Some of the artists labeled as Emo think the whole concept is complete > > bullshit, many others identified with other musical influences than > > Emo. > > Each new artist in the general neighborhood influences the overall > > dimensions of the definition, and each new work of those artists > > revives the > > debate. The longer time went, the more impossible it became to > > define Emo at > > all, as it fractured into personal definitions of "I like X. X is > > Emo. I > > like Y, therefore Y is Emo or Emoish". > > > > ARG is almost exactly like that. > > > > That's fine: that's the argument that ARG is a genre. Genres are > > almost > > always named after the fact by the community of fans. > > > > Some of us wish ARG was so indie, which is essentially a hope that > > the label > > (or replacement) was a movement instead of a genre. In the indie > > film world, > > there is a diversity of genres but a shared perspective and similar > > methodology among filmmakers. Indie is how you get it done, not what > > you get > > done. Indie teaches each other, and supports a broad diversity of > > equally > > valid reasons for making work. > > > > One of the features of a movement is constant reinvention. The > > debate, "What > > is indie?" is a constant feature of that film community, "What is > > ARG?" is a > > constant debate here. That's a desired feature in a movement, versus > > a genre > > (where the question is "Is that an ARG?"), and the community of > > people who > > practice will always desire some "terms of art" to help us > > communicate (so > > labels and the debate about them are good.) > > > > During the netcast, they were critiqued by their IRC chat room that > > they > > were trying to find a term that would include "SF0, Top Secret Dance > > Off and > > Eldritch Errors." Or maybe it was Eagle Eye packed in there too. I > > actually > > think that is exactly the goal: as a practitioner I see more things in > > common than different between them, even though Spacebass argued > > only EE was > > "technically an ARG" in that set. That works for me too ... I always > > had to > > accept the word of others which works in my portfolio were > > "technically an > > ARG" and rarely designed for it. So what is that broader category? > > > > Or maybe it's just Emo ... stretch the definition of ARG as genre > > expectation changes? > > > > Maybe now they'll change my latest peeve to "Emo Finger Monkey" > > (http://www.sonnyradio.com/fingermonkey1.jpg) instead of "Baby > > Carrots"? > > > > > > > > > > Brian > > > > _______________________________________________ > > ARG_Discuss mailing list > > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > > > --- > Mike Monello > Partner, Campfire > http://www.campfirenyc.com > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > From vladiweb at googlemail.com Sat Apr 11 07:59:47 2009 From: vladiweb at googlemail.com (Vladimir Alexeev) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 13:59:47 +0200 Subject: [arg_discuss] Giving credit where credit is due (ARGdb credits) (Vladimir Alexeev) Message-ID: Lurking at the discussions about credits and beeing glad the whole database becomes structures and system - my great respect to everyone here. My 2 cent is a question (even if a question can be seen as a productive contribution :-)). Anyway, I made some grassroots with an anonymous PM (even after working endless weeks with him I don't really know his identity). In some cases we were only 2 or 3 PMs the whole time, but our goal was to keep in secret who is a PM of the actual game till the end or sometimes forever (which is, as I suppose, an often practice by the no-name-PMs, especially by PMs who becomes one after beeing known as usual ARG player at uF etc. It was for me a little bit complicated not to take part on our own ARG, even if my co-players asked me for help - I was PM and uF-threads were taboo). So how can we handle with grassroot ARGs which are long running, but its PMs are trying to keep in secret their identities till the end? Since it seems to be an often phenomenon, should we make credits as just an optional function in the ARGdb (surely the ARGs listed without credits would have lack of informations then)? And should we perhaps list the credits after the ARG is ended? Another 2 cents is, some of the ARGs of this anymous PM were collapsed, and players researching in ARGdb about the actually running games could be distracted from playing these games, if they read about some previously collapsed ARGs by the same PM. But the thing is, the ARGs he finished were so great and unique, that they could immediately counterbalance the frequency of the collapsed games on the other side. How could we handle with this meta-neutrality of the ARG entries (an ARG rating system could be the wrong way I suppose, though)? From antoha.zaitsev at gmail.com Sat Apr 11 09:08:51 2009 From: antoha.zaitsev at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?B?0JDQvdGC0L7QvSDQl9Cw0LnRhtC10LI=?=) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 2009 17:08:51 +0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] You're so Emo! In-Reply-To: <4ca6fcda0904110140r31be03f7pe47b869d210bb271@mail.gmail.com> References: <4ca6fcda0904110140r31be03f7pe47b869d210bb271@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Emo analogy is brilliant, and Mike's comment about marginalization is worth attention. ARG term doesn't fit at all for me. And it's obvious, there will be another one. I can see three large branches of the genre (excuse me if I'm poorly informed). They aren't concepts of the same level, that's not classification at all. They are strong powers keeping the whole thing going. (1) Desire to be the part of the GAME (the one by David Fincher I mean). It caused the TINAG principle. It doesn't need to be followed by all means, but there is a great inspiration in it. (2) Internet & computer geekism. I'll put the example. You know the recent trailhead named ?What's in the box?. In Russia there is the site about IT, web and etc. (habrhabr.ru) wich is only place in runet (russian-speaking part of internet), where users are discussing the puzzles. These people love such things. And they have necessary skills. (3) Viral and ad. We get the universe already existing (where Batman & Jocker exist; or ? where Nokia is popular phone trademark) and exploit it. Our goal is promotion. We can be fans of the universe (of Jocker or Nokia) or not, but we promote the product. The game that belongs one of these powers are worth their own unique term. 2009/4/11 Hugh Davies > I for one am interested. > > But for my own, I tend to be resigned to use ARG as an umbrella term. > Agreed, its far from ideal but im happy to let future generations look back > and consider what and indeed if a better definition is needed. After all: > > Do video games all really use video? > How many players do you actually need to constitute an MMORPG? > Does answering these questions actually improve the game experiences, or > discussion or analysis of them? > > Taking up Mikes previous comment:* > > there are two issues mashed up here. One about what to call the thing that > we are making/enjoying/ that is an umbrella term and can accommodate many > different shapes/styles/genres underneath it, and the other is actually > defining what an Alternate Reality Game is. * > > Well said. I see this as the same issues approached in different ways. > Using > your book example Mike, we could we say: > > 1: What is a book? > > 2: How do we define a collection of written, printed, illustrated, or blank > sheets of paper, parchment, or other material, fastened together to hinge > at > one side? > > In this example, both questions answer eachother. > > Ergo, are we just Emoing ourselves away the by haggling over what > constitutes an ARG? > > After all, according to http://www.etymonline.com/ the history of the word > book is: > "beech" (cf. Ger. Buch "book" Buche "beech;" the notion being of beechwood > tablets on which runes were inscribed), but may be from the tree itself > (people still carve initials in them).Perhaps we just need to agree on a > very broad definition of an ARG so that we can exclude things such as The > Bible, Women by Charles Bukowski, and Watchmen - although im also prepared > to argue that the Bible and Watchmen could be considered part of the ARG > field. Im not familiar with Women by Charles Bukowski. > > hugh > > > > > > On Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 11:26 AM, Michael Monello > wrote: > > > I think there are two issues mashed up here. One about what to call the > > thing that we are making/enjoying/ that is an umbrella term and can > > accommodate many different shapes/styles/genres underneath it, and the > other > > is actually defining what an Alternate Reality Game is. I don't believe > > there is consensus on either, but I may be mistaken -- is there a > definition > > of what an "Alternate Reality Game" is that I can use to measure whether > > something is one? > > > > As for the umbrella term, we all recognize what a book is. According to > > Wikipedia: > > "A book is a set or collection of written, printed, illustrated, or blank > > sheets, made of paper, parchment, or other material, usually fastened > > together to hinge at one side." > > > > Now, a book may be a graphic novel or trade paperback or horror anthology > > or poetry collection or romance, but there's no argument that it is a > > "book," and if I point to a car and say that it is a book, there is > nothing > > to discuss, as I would clearly be wrong under the definition of what a > book > > is. > > > > So, if "Alternate Reality Game" is the umbrella term, then are Eagle Eye, > > SF0, Top Secret Dance Off, Eldritch Errors, and Blair Witch Project all > > ARGs? I'm not looking for opinions, discussion, or debate on this, but > > whether they pass or fail the definition of an ARG, much the same way > that > > we could all agree that The Bible, Women by Charles Bukowski, and > Watchmen > > by Alan Moore are all books. (BTW, I've always wanted a reason to put the > > Bible and anything by Charles Bukowski on the same list) If there is a > true > > definition then we should be able to point to any project and say, as a > > statement of fact, agree on whether they are ARGs or not. The discussions > > about whether one or the other is a comedy or poetry might be fuzzier, > but > > there should be consensus on it being a "book." That, to me, is what I > mean > > by an umbrella term, and my interest in one has absolutely nothing to do > > with needing to sell ARGs to clients as characterized by the ARGNetcast. > I > > don't have any problem selli > > ng what Campfire does to clients even in this down economy, so please > > don't assume I'm acting out of self-interest. I believe that an umbrella > > term would be helpful in capturing the full extent of what has been done > in > > the past, and (much) more importantly, what can be done in the future. > > "Book" is not a restrictive term - it can have puzzles, it can be a game > or > > treasure hunt, like Masquerade, or it can be blank. Does "Alternate > Reality > > Game" pass that test? > > > > Now, I get that this is the IGDA here, and I understand this could be > read > > as bristling against the term "game" but I'm not "anti-game," not even > > close. I'm questioning whether the umbrella term we are looking for > should > > define it as a game or not, and the truth is, I go back and forth on it. > > Maybe not all the projects I listed above should be contained under the > > umbrella term, and maybe that would make settling on an umbrella term an > > easier task. I do think that if our umbrella term requires that it be a > > game, then we are talking about a genre and not an entirely new form of > art > > or entertainment (although of course it can be art and they are hopefully > > all entertaining). And I also acknowledge that if the umbrella term does > > embrace all these non-game forms that ultimately THIS group is about > > discussing the "game" variety, but this is probably the largest list of > > people working in the space and I think it is a fair discussion to have > > here. > > > > That being said, I also don't want to hold the list hostage to this > > discussion. Truthfully, if no one on the list is interested in this topic > > then I'd rather talk it over with Brian over drinks at the bar than in > front > > of disinterested spectators, so I won't engage in this discussion further > > unless the other, silent members of the list take part and push it > further, > > one way or the other. > > > > Whew. I really don't generally get tied up in semantic discussions, as I > am > > far from an academic, but I am interested in this for what it means to > the > > burgeoning form. If Brian is right, and ARGs are Emo (and I think he is > > right), then ARGs are going to be marginalized like Emo, and all the > other > > great stuff that doesn't fit the definition of ARGs and all the things > you > > can do in the space will in the future will be seen as something else, > not > > ARGs, and then ARGs and the people who champion them and define their > work > > in that way will be marginalized into that genre ghetto. As the > ARGNetcast > > folks noted, almost every company associated with commercial ARGs has > > already backed away from the term, and not because they don't like it but > > because that marginalization is already happening. > > > > Are we filmmakers or are we horror filmmakers? Are we storytellers or are > > we romance writers? Are we game designers or are we alternate reality > game > > designers? What are we? > > > > This existential crisis brought to you by: > > > > Mike > > > > On 4/10/09 6:19 PM, "Brooke Thompson" wrote: > > > > I've got to admit, that was one of the more enjoyable netcasts for me > > and my minds been going since. The Emo analogy is interesting and ties > > in with where my thoughts have been going... is ARG the umbrella term? > > > > And, the more personal... am I finally becoming ok with the idea of > > ARG being the umbrella? and, of course, the obsessive soul searching > > concerns of why I feel such a strong need to control this term when I > > usually prefer more fluid, dynamic, and organic things... is it a > > question of my identity, which I alluded to in the podcast by saying > > that I just want to know what it is that I do. So, perhaps Emo is the > > *perfect* analogy :) > > > > > > > > On Apr 10, 2009, at 2:15 PM, Brian Clark wrote: > > > > > So our discussions here boiled over into the ARGNetcast broadcast: > > > > > > http://www.argnetcast.com/2009/04/arg-netcast-episode-84-two-queens/ > > > > > > And from there culminated into a declaration of my peevedness for baby > > > carrots: > > > > > > http://brianclarkslatestpeeve.com/ > > > > > > It is a really smart discussion by some really smart people (the > > > netcast, > > > not the peeves), which makes me ask myself whether I'm sometimes > > > opaque > > > about the arguments I'm making (BABY CARROTS!) So inspired by ARGN, > > > I'd like > > > to offer up a more affirmative definition of what ARG is from my > > > point of > > > view. > > > > > > ARG is so Emo. > > > > > > A community of fans essentially labeled the work of a few bands Emo. > > > Then > > > they started pointing to new bands appearing and going, "Yup, that's > > > Emo." > > > Other bands were influenced by that, and proudly declared themselves > > > Emo. > > > Some of the artists labeled as Emo think the whole concept is complete > > > bullshit, many others identified with other musical influences than > > > Emo. > > > Each new artist in the general neighborhood influences the overall > > > dimensions of the definition, and each new work of those artists > > > revives the > > > debate. The longer time went, the more impossible it became to > > > define Emo at > > > all, as it fractured into personal definitions of "I like X. X is > > > Emo. I > > > like Y, therefore Y is Emo or Emoish". > > > > > > ARG is almost exactly like that. > > > > > > That's fine: that's the argument that ARG is a genre. Genres are > > > almost > > > always named after the fact by the community of fans. > > > > > > Some of us wish ARG was so indie, which is essentially a hope that > > > the label > > > (or replacement) was a movement instead of a genre. In the indie > > > film world, > > > there is a diversity of genres but a shared perspective and similar > > > methodology among filmmakers. Indie is how you get it done, not what > > > you get > > > done. Indie teaches each other, and supports a broad diversity of > > > equally > > > valid reasons for making work. > > > > > > One of the features of a movement is constant reinvention. The > > > debate, "What > > > is indie?" is a constant feature of that film community, "What is > > > ARG?" is a > > > constant debate here. That's a desired feature in a movement, versus > > > a genre > > > (where the question is "Is that an ARG?"), and the community of > > > people who > > > practice will always desire some "terms of art" to help us > > > communicate (so > > > labels and the debate about them are good.) > > > > > > During the netcast, they were critiqued by their IRC chat room that > > > they > > > were trying to find a term that would include "SF0, Top Secret Dance > > > Off and > > > Eldritch Errors." Or maybe it was Eagle Eye packed in there too. I > > > actually > > > think that is exactly the goal: as a practitioner I see more things in > > > common than different between them, even though Spacebass argued > > > only EE was > > > "technically an ARG" in that set. That works for me too ... I always > > > had to > > > accept the word of others which works in my portfolio were > > > "technically an > > > ARG" and rarely designed for it. So what is that broader category? > > > > > > Or maybe it's just Emo ... stretch the definition of ARG as genre > > > expectation changes? > > > > > > Maybe now they'll change my latest peeve to "Emo Finger Monkey" > > > (http://www.sonnyradio.com/fingermonkey1.jpg) instead of "Baby > > > Carrots"? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Brian > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > ARG_Discuss mailing list > > > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > > > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > > > _______________________________________________ > > ARG_Discuss mailing list > > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > > > > > > > --- > > Mike Monello > > Partner, Campfire > > http://www.campfirenyc.com > > _______________________________________________ > > ARG_Discuss mailing list > > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > -- ????? ?????? | www.virtuzor.ru ????????? ?????? ? ????? ????????? ? ???????????. From bclark at gmdstudios.com Mon Apr 13 11:26:15 2009 From: bclark at gmdstudios.com (Brian Clark) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 11:26:15 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] You're so Emo! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2DA1C4ECE18C43DAA4988814B761D119@Tricorder> I think Mike hit the two tasks on the head, one being "is there an umbrella term" and the other being "is there a useful enough definition of ARG to use to determine if something is one." Not that Wiki is some authority, but as a starting place its definition of ARG is: "An ARG, also known as an altered reality game (ARG), is an interactive narrative that uses the real world as a platform, often involving multiple media and game elements, to tell a story that may be affected by participants' ideas or actions." I thought it was particularly interesting that somehow the wiki edits have produced the phrase "altered reality game" (versus alternate) ... notice, though, that it hedges its bets on other features by sliding "often involving" and "that may be" modifiers in there. From a straight-forward view, that definition seems to fit LARPing pretty well (which may not be the intent), and I can think of examples that don't involve "multiple media and game elements" (say, "Masquerade") or where the narrative isn't "affected by participants ideas or actions" (say, The Watchman project that Fourth Wall did.) My gut suggests that a strong definition of ARG would leave LARPing just barely outside of the ARG umbrella, but exceptionally closely related (I'd argue the major difference is in LARPs people are "playing a character persona" while in ARGs people tend to "play themselves or a heightened version of themselves" -- ARGers are seldom roleplaying, LARPers are seldom not roleplaying) Because of that, I imagine there is an umbrella term above ARG (that, at the very least, includes both ARG and LARP.) Mike also wrote: "That, to me, is what I mean by an umbrella term, and my interest in one has absolutely nothing to do with needing to sell ARGs to clients as characterized by the ARGNetcast." Heh heh. Totally with you, Mike. After seeing words like "interactive" and "viral" lose any useful distinctiveness as they gained more widespread use, that's my main goal as well -- either making a proactive case that ARG isn't just "viral and narrative" or arguing that "viral and narrative" and ARG fall under some umbrella of forms that has far more potential than just that. -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Michael Monello Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 9:26 PM To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] You're so Emo! I think there are two issues mashed up here. One about what to call the thing that we are making/enjoying/ that is an umbrella term and can accommodate many different shapes/styles/genres underneath it, and the other is actually defining what an Alternate Reality Game is. I don't believe there is consensus on either, but I may be mistaken -- is there a definition of what an "Alternate Reality Game" is that I can use to measure whether something is one? As for the umbrella term, we all recognize what a book is. According to Wikipedia: "A book is a set or collection of written, printed, illustrated, or blank sheets, made of paper, parchment, or other material, usually fastened together to hinge at one side." Now, a book may be a graphic novel or trade paperback or horror anthology or poetry collection or romance, but there's no argument that it is a "book," and if I point to a car and say that it is a book, there is nothing to discuss, as I would clearly be wrong under the definition of what a book is. So, if "Alternate Reality Game" is the umbrella term, then are Eagle Eye, SF0, Top Secret Dance Off, Eldritch Errors, and Blair Witch Project all ARGs? I'm not looking for opinions, discussion, or debate on this, but whether they pass or fail the definition of an ARG, much the same way that we could all agree that The Bible, Women by Charles Bukowski, and Watchmen by Alan Moore are all books. (BTW, I've always wanted a reason to put the Bible and anything by Charles Bukowski on the same list) If there is a true definition then we should be able to point to any project and say, as a statement of fact, agree on whether they are ARGs or not. The discussions about whether one or the other is a comedy or poetry might be fuzzier, but there should be consensus on it being a "book." That, to me, is what I mean by an umbrella term, and my interest in one has absolutely nothing to do with needing to sell ARGs to clients as characterized by the ARGNetcast. I don't have any problem selli ng what Campfire does to clients even in this down economy, so please don't assume I'm acting out of self-interest. I believe that an umbrella term would be helpful in capturing the full extent of what has been done in the past, and (much) more importantly, what can be done in the future. "Book" is not a restrictive term - it can have puzzles, it can be a game or treasure hunt, like Masquerade, or it can be blank. Does "Alternate Reality Game" pass that test? Now, I get that this is the IGDA here, and I understand this could be read as bristling against the term "game" but I'm not "anti-game," not even close. I'm questioning whether the umbrella term we are looking for should define it as a game or not, and the truth is, I go back and forth on it. Maybe not all the projects I listed above should be contained under the umbrella term, and maybe that would make settling on an umbrella term an easier task. I do think that if our umbrella term requires that it be a game, then we are talking about a genre and not an entirely new form of art or entertainment (although of course it can be art and they are hopefully all entertaining). And I also acknowledge that if the umbrella term does embrace all these non-game forms that ultimately THIS group is about discussing the "game" variety, but this is probably the largest list of people working in the space and I think it is a fair discussion to have here. That being said, I also don't want to hold the list hostage to this discussion. Truthfully, if no one on the list is interested in this topic then I'd rather talk it over with Brian over drinks at the bar than in front of disinterested spectators, so I won't engage in this discussion further unless the other, silent members of the list take part and push it further, one way or the other. Whew. I really don't generally get tied up in semantic discussions, as I am far from an academic, but I am interested in this for what it means to the burgeoning form. If Brian is right, and ARGs are Emo (and I think he is right), then ARGs are going to be marginalized like Emo, and all the other great stuff that doesn't fit the definition of ARGs and all the things you can do in the space will in the future will be seen as something else, not ARGs, and then ARGs and the people who champion them and define their work in that way will be marginalized into that genre ghetto. As the ARGNetcast folks noted, almost every company associated with commercial ARGs has already backed away from the term, and not because they don't like it but because that marginalization is already happening. Are we filmmakers or are we horror filmmakers? Are we storytellers or are we romance writers? Are we game designers or are we alternate reality game designers? What are we? This existential crisis brought to you by: Mike On 4/10/09 6:19 PM, "Brooke Thompson" wrote: I've got to admit, that was one of the more enjoyable netcasts for me and my minds been going since. The Emo analogy is interesting and ties in with where my thoughts have been going... is ARG the umbrella term? And, the more personal... am I finally becoming ok with the idea of ARG being the umbrella? and, of course, the obsessive soul searching concerns of why I feel such a strong need to control this term when I usually prefer more fluid, dynamic, and organic things... is it a question of my identity, which I alluded to in the podcast by saying that I just want to know what it is that I do. So, perhaps Emo is the *perfect* analogy :) On Apr 10, 2009, at 2:15 PM, Brian Clark wrote: > So our discussions here boiled over into the ARGNetcast broadcast: > > http://www.argnetcast.com/2009/04/arg-netcast-episode-84-two-queens/ > > And from there culminated into a declaration of my peevedness for baby > carrots: > > http://brianclarkslatestpeeve.com/ > > It is a really smart discussion by some really smart people (the > netcast, > not the peeves), which makes me ask myself whether I'm sometimes > opaque > about the arguments I'm making (BABY CARROTS!) So inspired by ARGN, > I'd like > to offer up a more affirmative definition of what ARG is from my > point of > view. > > ARG is so Emo. > > A community of fans essentially labeled the work of a few bands Emo. > Then > they started pointing to new bands appearing and going, "Yup, that's > Emo." > Other bands were influenced by that, and proudly declared themselves > Emo. > Some of the artists labeled as Emo think the whole concept is complete > bullshit, many others identified with other musical influences than > Emo. > Each new artist in the general neighborhood influences the overall > dimensions of the definition, and each new work of those artists > revives the > debate. The longer time went, the more impossible it became to > define Emo at > all, as it fractured into personal definitions of "I like X. X is > Emo. I > like Y, therefore Y is Emo or Emoish". > > ARG is almost exactly like that. > > That's fine: that's the argument that ARG is a genre. Genres are > almost > always named after the fact by the community of fans. > > Some of us wish ARG was so indie, which is essentially a hope that > the label > (or replacement) was a movement instead of a genre. In the indie > film world, > there is a diversity of genres but a shared perspective and similar > methodology among filmmakers. Indie is how you get it done, not what > you get > done. Indie teaches each other, and supports a broad diversity of > equally > valid reasons for making work. > > One of the features of a movement is constant reinvention. The > debate, "What > is indie?" is a constant feature of that film community, "What is > ARG?" is a > constant debate here. That's a desired feature in a movement, versus > a genre > (where the question is "Is that an ARG?"), and the community of > people who > practice will always desire some "terms of art" to help us > communicate (so > labels and the debate about them are good.) > > During the netcast, they were critiqued by their IRC chat room that > they > were trying to find a term that would include "SF0, Top Secret Dance > Off and > Eldritch Errors." Or maybe it was Eagle Eye packed in there too. I > actually > think that is exactly the goal: as a practitioner I see more things in > common than different between them, even though Spacebass argued > only EE was > "technically an ARG" in that set. That works for me too ... I always > had to > accept the word of others which works in my portfolio were > "technically an > ARG" and rarely designed for it. So what is that broader category? > > Or maybe it's just Emo ... stretch the definition of ARG as genre > expectation changes? > > Maybe now they'll change my latest peeve to "Emo Finger Monkey" > (http://www.sonnyradio.com/fingermonkey1.jpg) instead of "Baby > Carrots"? > > > > > Brian > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss --- Mike Monello Partner, Campfire http://www.campfirenyc.com _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From dominic.de.haas at gmail.com Mon Apr 13 14:21:12 2009 From: dominic.de.haas at gmail.com (Dominic de Haas) Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2009 20:21:12 +0200 Subject: [arg_discuss] Hello everybody Message-ID: <400e08bc0904131121r21cec6b2v106e511eb7769d13@mail.gmail.com> Hello everybody, it's nice to be on this list. My name is Dominic de Haas. I am Dutch and I never have played any arg. Instead I skipped playing and decided to read a lot about it and launch an Arg myself, which up till now is working out fine. The concept of Arg's fascinates me (and I have been reading about them for years). I promise, soon as my game ends (which I expect to be in 2 weeks) I will spend some actual time playing Arg's. Hope I stayed within the 250 words. Again, it's nice to meet you all. Dominic From desy01 at charter.net Tue Apr 14 17:42:21 2009 From: desy01 at charter.net (Sherry Andreason) Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 14:42:21 -0700 Subject: [arg_discuss] Hello Everyone Message-ID: <004a01c9bd49$e49879f0$adc96dd0$@net> Hi everyone, this is my introductory email. ok stating the obvious here. My name is Sherry and I am participating in a currently running ARG in content syndication and other non-creative duties. My career online started in Role Playing Games years ago but this is my first experience with ARGs. Basically I am just here to learn J Sherry From dominic.de.haas at gmail.com Wed Apr 15 05:19:18 2009 From: dominic.de.haas at gmail.com (Dominic de Haas) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 11:19:18 +0200 Subject: [arg_discuss] Hello Everyone In-Reply-To: <004a01c9bd49$e49879f0$adc96dd0$@net> References: <004a01c9bd49$e49879f0$adc96dd0$@net> Message-ID: <400e08bc0904150219n2a4b3d42j2e011fcfe4d08478@mail.gmail.com> Hi Sherry, Welcome. I recently signed up for the list myself. Nice meeting you. Greets, Dominic On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 11:42 PM, Sherry Andreason wrote: > Hi everyone, this is my introductory email. ok stating the obvious here. My > name is Sherry and I am participating in a currently running ARG in content > syndication and other non-creative duties. My career online started in Role > Playing Games years ago but this is my first experience with ARGs. > Basically I am just here to learn J > > > > Sherry > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > From agent.lex at gmail.com Sun Apr 19 14:27:55 2009 From: agent.lex at gmail.com (Agent Lex) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2009 19:27:55 +0100 Subject: [arg_discuss] New calendar, new chats? Message-ID: <49EB6D2B.50209@gmail.com> Hey everyone I've noticed a lack of SIG IRC chats recently. I for one enjoyed these, even if we didn't have a specific subject to talk about. After some discussion with Andrea, I've decided to restart the chats, and at the same time start a new calendar for events. The new calendar, with a single test event, is up here: http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=goi73a09ven2gcshtbfbomilg0%40group.calendar.google.com It's running on Eastern time, since that seems to be the time zone of choice around here. Please let me know if there are any events you'd like added (for example, conventions) and I can add them. The other reason for this email is to take a quick survey. If we were to restart the IRC chats, once every week or two, when would be the best time of the week to hold them for you? Bear in mind that everyone is welcome to come into the chat at any time, but an organised chat tends to get some of you out of the woodwork. Chat details are as follows: server: irc.chat-solutions.org channel: #arg_sig Thanks - Lex From colinmcnee at yahoo.com Tue Apr 21 22:09:14 2009 From: colinmcnee at yahoo.com (Colin McNee) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 19:09:14 -0700 Subject: [arg_discuss] Colin added you as a friend on MyLife! Message-ID: <1228209696.17213@yahoo.com> Colin McNee added you as a friend on MyLife(TM). Please confirm you know Colin so we can connect you. Do You Know Colin? YES - Connect with Colin, and see who's searching for you http://smtp26.mail.reunion.com:80/track?type=click&mailingid=68801&messageid=9300&databaseid=1238061918&serial=1228209696&emailid=arg_discuss at igda.org&userid=17213&extra=&&&2002&&&http://www.mylife.com/showInviteRegistration.do?uid=348298588&invitee=arg_discuss at igda.org NO - I don't know Colin http://smtp26.mail.reunion.com:80/track?type=click&mailingid=68801&messageid=9300&databaseid=1238061918&serial=1228209696&emailid=arg_discuss at igda.org&userid=17213&extra=&&&2000&&&http://www.mylife.com/showInviteRegistration.do?unsub=true&invitee=arg_discuss at igda.org&uid=348298588 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ MyLife - Find everyone. All in one place.(TM) You have received this email because a MyLife member sent an invitation to this email address. For assistance, please refer to our FAQ or Contact Us: http://smtp26.mail.reunion.com:80/track?type=click&mailingid=68801&messageid=9300&databaseid=1238061918&serial=1228209696&emailid=arg_discuss at igda.org&userid=17213&extra=&&&2001&&&http://help.mylife.com/ Our Address: 2118 Wilshire Blvd., Box 1008, Santa Monica, CA 90403-5784 Copyright (c) 2009 MyLife.com, Inc. All Rights Reserved. From me at addlepated.net Thu Apr 23 14:40:08 2009 From: me at addlepated.net (D. Cook) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 13:40:08 -0500 Subject: [arg_discuss] Dave Szulborski Message-ID: <28286314-C9A9-4279-9CBC-087D45F1FC94@addlepated.net> Hi list, It is with immense sorrow that I bring you the news that Dave Szulborski passed away last night after his prolonged battle with leukemia. I've posted some details about his funeral arrangements and such on Unfiction here - http://forums.unfiction.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=27762 . We have lost a truly brilliant mind. Dee Cook From wendeth at wendydespain.com Thu Apr 23 15:19:24 2009 From: wendeth at wendydespain.com (Wendy Despain) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 12:19:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [arg_discuss] Dave Szulborski In-Reply-To: <28286314-C9A9-4279-9CBC-087D45F1FC94@addlepated.net> References: <28286314-C9A9-4279-9CBC-087D45F1FC94@addlepated.net> Message-ID: <5d9e2613791ad645a50160f6ff88db0e.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> I'd like to propose that we work to get Dave a listing on IGDA's Memorials project. For details: http://www.igda.org/wiki/Memorials It looks like the contact point for this project is: memorials at igda.org I don't think I'm the best person to spearhead this particular project, since I have a lot of irons in the fire right now, and others are much closer to the situation than I am. But I'd definitely like to see him memorialized by the IGDA. Wendy Despain International Hobo On Thu, April 23, 2009 11:40 am, D. Cook wrote: > Hi list, > > It is with immense sorrow that I bring you the news that Dave > Szulborski passed away last night after his prolonged battle with > leukemia. I've posted some details about his funeral arrangements and > such on Unfiction here - > http://forums.unfiction.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=27762 > . We have lost a truly brilliant mind. > > Dee Cook > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > Wendy Despain quantumcontent.com From deusexmachinatio at gmail.com Thu Apr 23 15:55:35 2009 From: deusexmachinatio at gmail.com (Andrea Phillips) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 15:55:35 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Dave Szulborski In-Reply-To: <5d9e2613791ad645a50160f6ff88db0e.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> References: <28286314-C9A9-4279-9CBC-087D45F1FC94@addlepated.net> <5d9e2613791ad645a50160f6ff88db0e.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> Message-ID: <5c799fd60904231255hd3abd1bi82a22089b4fbd014@mail.gmail.com> That's a wonderful idea, Wendy. I hadn't even been aware of this project before you mentioned it. I'm probably not the right person for this, but I'm willing to do the IGDA-level administrative grunt work toward making this happen if somebody else will help me get together the information for our proposed memorial. Dee, would you be up for that? Or maybe Varin (are you here, Varin?) On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 3:19 PM, Wendy Despain wrote: > I'd like to propose that we work to get Dave a listing on IGDA's > Memorials project. For details: http://www.igda.org/wiki/Memorials > > It looks like the contact point for this project is: > memorials at igda.org > > I don't think I'm the best person to spearhead this particular > project, since I have a lot of irons in the fire right now, and others > are much closer to the situation than I am. > > But I'd definitely like to see him memorialized by the IGDA. > > Wendy Despain > International Hobo > > > > On Thu, April 23, 2009 11:40 am, D. Cook wrote: >> Hi list, >> >> It is with immense sorrow that I bring you the news that Dave >> Szulborski passed away last night after his prolonged battle with >> leukemia. ?I've posted some details about his funeral arrangements and >> such on Unfiction here - >> http://forums.unfiction.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=27762 >> . ?We have lost a truly brilliant mind. >> >> Dee Cook >> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >> > > > Wendy Despain > quantumcontent.com > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > -- Andrea Phillips http://www.deusexmachinatio.com Words * Culture * Interaction From me at addlepated.net Thu Apr 23 16:23:35 2009 From: me at addlepated.net (D. Cook) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 15:23:35 -0500 Subject: [arg_discuss] Dave Szulborski In-Reply-To: <5c799fd60904231255hd3abd1bi82a22089b4fbd014@mail.gmail.com> References: <28286314-C9A9-4279-9CBC-087D45F1FC94@addlepated.net> <5d9e2613791ad645a50160f6ff88db0e.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> <5c799fd60904231255hd3abd1bi82a22089b4fbd014@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5E0922B9-732A-42D2-9D3B-5906CDD46B61@addlepated.net> Yes, I would be happy to get whatever needs to be gotten together. Just let me know. Dee On Apr 23, 2009, at 2:55 PM, Andrea Phillips wrote: > That's a wonderful idea, Wendy. I hadn't even been aware of this > project before you mentioned it. > > I'm probably not the right person for this, but I'm willing to do the > IGDA-level administrative grunt work toward making this happen if > somebody else will help me get together the information for our > proposed memorial. Dee, would you be up for that? Or maybe Varin (are > you here, Varin?) From varineq at gmail.com Thu Apr 23 17:01:58 2009 From: varineq at gmail.com (Michelle Senderhauf) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 16:01:58 -0500 Subject: [arg_discuss] Dave Szulborski In-Reply-To: <5E0922B9-732A-42D2-9D3B-5906CDD46B61@addlepated.net> References: <28286314-C9A9-4279-9CBC-087D45F1FC94@addlepated.net> <5d9e2613791ad645a50160f6ff88db0e.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> <5c799fd60904231255hd3abd1bi82a22089b4fbd014@mail.gmail.com> <5E0922B9-732A-42D2-9D3B-5906CDD46B61@addlepated.net> Message-ID: <45cb08290904231401w8779892ne054708e2c418d34@mail.gmail.com> I'd be happy to help out with anything you need too. Michelle (varin) On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 3:23 PM, D. Cook wrote: > Yes, I would be happy to get whatever needs to be gotten together. Just > let me know. > > Dee > > On Apr 23, 2009, at 2:55 PM, Andrea Phillips wrote: > > That's a wonderful idea, Wendy. I hadn't even been aware of this >> project before you mentioned it. >> >> I'm probably not the right person for this, but I'm willing to do the >> IGDA-level administrative grunt work toward making this happen if >> somebody else will help me get together the information for our >> proposed memorial. Dee, would you be up for that? Or maybe Varin (are >> you here, Varin?) >> > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > From dflor71 at gmail.com Thu Apr 23 17:08:59 2009 From: dflor71 at gmail.com (David Flor) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 17:08:59 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Dave Szulborski In-Reply-To: <5E0922B9-732A-42D2-9D3B-5906CDD46B61@addlepated.net> References: <28286314-C9A9-4279-9CBC-087D45F1FC94@addlepated.net> <5d9e2613791ad645a50160f6ff88db0e.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> <5c799fd60904231255hd3abd1bi82a22089b4fbd014@mail.gmail.com> <5E0922B9-732A-42D2-9D3B-5906CDD46B61@addlepated.net> Message-ID: <50b4b0580904231408i68244479lad166b793f7230b4@mail.gmail.com> Details on how to submit the listing are at: http://www.igda.org/wiki/Memorials/Submission_Guidelines I think more than anything we need someone to provide a proper bio for him. I was surprised to see that he doesn't have a listing on Wikipedia either, for that matter. On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 4:23 PM, D. Cook wrote: > Yes, I would be happy to get whatever needs to be gotten together. ?Just let > me know. > > Dee > > On Apr 23, 2009, at 2:55 PM, Andrea Phillips wrote: > >> That's a wonderful idea, Wendy. I hadn't even been aware of this >> project before you mentioned it. >> >> I'm probably not the right person for this, but I'm willing to do the >> IGDA-level administrative grunt work toward making this happen if >> somebody else will help me get together the information for our >> proposed memorial. Dee, would you be up for that? Or maybe Varin (are >> you here, Varin?) > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > From deusexmachinatio at gmail.com Thu Apr 23 17:12:36 2009 From: deusexmachinatio at gmail.com (Andrea Phillips) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 17:12:36 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Dave Szulborski In-Reply-To: <50b4b0580904231408i68244479lad166b793f7230b4@mail.gmail.com> References: <28286314-C9A9-4279-9CBC-087D45F1FC94@addlepated.net> <5d9e2613791ad645a50160f6ff88db0e.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> <5c799fd60904231255hd3abd1bi82a22089b4fbd014@mail.gmail.com> <5E0922B9-732A-42D2-9D3B-5906CDD46B61@addlepated.net> <50b4b0580904231408i68244479lad166b793f7230b4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5c799fd60904231412j4b3d9cd6kd135360433ca0ec8@mail.gmail.com> *nod* I hear you on Wikipedia. Could someone point me to a latest and most updated bio or resume or projects list of his work? Should be easy to go from there... On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 5:08 PM, David Flor wrote: > Details on how to submit the listing are at: > http://www.igda.org/wiki/Memorials/Submission_Guidelines > > I think more than anything we need someone to provide a proper bio for > him. I was surprised to see that he doesn't have a listing on > Wikipedia either, for that matter. > > On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 4:23 PM, D. Cook wrote: >> Yes, I would be happy to get whatever needs to be gotten together. ?Just let >> me know. >> >> Dee >> >> On Apr 23, 2009, at 2:55 PM, Andrea Phillips wrote: >> >>> That's a wonderful idea, Wendy. I hadn't even been aware of this >>> project before you mentioned it. >>> >>> I'm probably not the right person for this, but I'm willing to do the >>> IGDA-level administrative grunt work toward making this happen if >>> somebody else will help me get together the information for our >>> proposed memorial. Dee, would you be up for that? Or maybe Varin (are >>> you here, Varin?) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >> > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > -- Andrea Phillips http://www.deusexmachinatio.com Words * Culture * Interaction From me at addlepated.net Thu Apr 23 17:18:24 2009 From: me at addlepated.net (D. Cook) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2009 16:18:24 -0500 Subject: [arg_discuss] Dave Szulborski In-Reply-To: <5c799fd60904231412j4b3d9cd6kd135360433ca0ec8@mail.gmail.com> References: <28286314-C9A9-4279-9CBC-087D45F1FC94@addlepated.net> <5d9e2613791ad645a50160f6ff88db0e.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> <5c799fd60904231255hd3abd1bi82a22089b4fbd014@mail.gmail.com> <5E0922B9-732A-42D2-9D3B-5906CDD46B61@addlepated.net> <50b4b0580904231408i68244479lad166b793f7230b4@mail.gmail.com> <5c799fd60904231412j4b3d9cd6kd135360433ca0ec8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <23372E73-2F2F-4798-A4F0-1F3F3391B82E@addlepated.net> He did have a Wikipedia page at one time but it was deleted as non- notable, IIRC. I don't know how to search for that sort of thing. On Apr 23, 2009, at 4:12 PM, Andrea Phillips wrote: > *nod* I hear you on Wikipedia. Could someone point me to a latest and > most updated bio or resume or projects list of his work? Should be > easy to go from there... From a.r.nakama at gmail.com Fri Apr 24 00:28:49 2009 From: a.r.nakama at gmail.com (A Nakama) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 00:28:49 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Dave Szulborski In-Reply-To: <23372E73-2F2F-4798-A4F0-1F3F3391B82E@addlepated.net> References: <28286314-C9A9-4279-9CBC-087D45F1FC94@addlepated.net> <5d9e2613791ad645a50160f6ff88db0e.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> <5c799fd60904231255hd3abd1bi82a22089b4fbd014@mail.gmail.com> <5E0922B9-732A-42D2-9D3B-5906CDD46B61@addlepated.net> <50b4b0580904231408i68244479lad166b793f7230b4@mail.gmail.com> <5c799fd60904231412j4b3d9cd6kd135360433ca0ec8@mail.gmail.com> <23372E73-2F2F-4798-A4F0-1F3F3391B82E@addlepated.net> Message-ID: Wow. Dave's book "This Is Not A Game" was one of the first introductions I had to ARGs as entities beyond "that viral marketing thing." In a real way, he directly opened my eyes up to the possibilities out there for storytelling beyond prose. I know I can't be the only one. This is a big loss. If there's something I can do to help with the memorial project, please don't hesitate to let me know. ~ Adam Nakama On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 5:18 PM, D. Cook wrote: > He did have a Wikipedia page at one time but it was deleted as non-notable, > IIRC. I don't know how to search for that sort of thing. > > On Apr 23, 2009, at 4:12 PM, Andrea Phillips wrote: > > *nod* I hear you on Wikipedia. Could someone point me to a latest and >> most updated bio or resume or projects list of his work? Should be >> easy to go from there... >> > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > From Bryan.Alexander at nitle.org Fri Apr 24 09:46:47 2009 From: Bryan.Alexander at nitle.org (Bryan Alexander) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 09:46:47 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Dave Szulborski In-Reply-To: References: <28286314-C9A9-4279-9CBC-087D45F1FC94@addlepated.net><5d9e2613791ad645a50160f6ff88db0e.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com><5c799fd60904231255hd3abd1bi82a22089b4fbd014@mail.gmail.com><5E0922B9-732A-42D2-9D3B-5906CDD46B61@addlepated.net><50b4b0580904231408i68244479lad166b793f7230b4@mail.gmail.com><5c799fd60904231412j4b3d9cd6kd135360433ca0ec8@mail.gmail.com><23372E73-2F2F-4798-A4F0-1F3F3391B82E@addlepated.net> Message-ID: <08119B28F4B3FF46A5747921C9FAA6780108830F@AA1EXCH06.office.share.org> Dave's death is very sad. I echo Adam's praise of his work. -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of A Nakama Sent: Friday, April 24, 2009 12:29 AM To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] Dave Szulborski Wow. Dave's book "This Is Not A Game" was one of the first introductions I had to ARGs as entities beyond "that viral marketing thing." In a real way, he directly opened my eyes up to the possibilities out there for storytelling beyond prose. I know I can't be the only one. This is a big loss. If there's something I can do to help with the memorial project, please don't hesitate to let me know. ~ Adam Nakama On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 5:18 PM, D. Cook wrote: > He did have a Wikipedia page at one time but it was deleted as non-notable, > IIRC. I don't know how to search for that sort of thing. > > On Apr 23, 2009, at 4:12 PM, Andrea Phillips wrote: > > *nod* I hear you on Wikipedia. Could someone point me to a latest and >> most updated bio or resume or projects list of his work? Should be >> easy to go from there... >> > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From mmonello at campfirenyc.com Fri Apr 24 09:57:53 2009 From: mmonello at campfirenyc.com (Michael Monello) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 06:57:53 -0700 Subject: [arg_discuss] Dave Szulborski In-Reply-To: <08119B28F4B3FF46A5747921C9FAA6780108830F@AA1EXCH06.office.share.org> Message-ID: I was fortunate enough to collaborate with Dave on several projects, including one we have going on right now. Dave was an incredibly smart, generous and wonderful soul, who made everything and everyone he touched better. We will miss him dearly. My condolences to his family. Rest in peace, Dave. --- Mike Monello Partner, Campfire 62 White Street, 3E New York, NY 10013 212-612-9600 http://www.campfirenyc.com From vladiweb at googlemail.com Fri Apr 24 10:26:50 2009 From: vladiweb at googlemail.com (Vladimir Alexeev) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 16:26:50 +0200 Subject: [arg_discuss] Dave Szulborski (Vlad Alex) Message-ID: I never met Dave in real life, but I read his books. After the reading I had a feeling, I had great conversations with him... His style was amazing and his knowledge awesome. My deep sympathies to his family... If I can something do or help, I'll be glad to do it. I had a weird idea, perhaps if there are some your blog entries like "Ad memoriam Dave Szulborski" (memories, thoughts and storys about Dave) we could make a compilation of all these blog entries, like we folded the cranes and sent to him last year. I don't know, on which plattform we could do it (I opened a thread in facebook ( http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=2230732218&topic=9358), but I fear, facebook isn't a best way to save the memories about Dave for ever and for everybody webwide)... Here is my contribution in German. http://merzmensch.blogspot.com/2009/04/dave-szulborski-rip.html I cannot still believe he's gone...