[arg_discuss] Contents of ARG_Discuss Digest, Vol 38, Issue 8, Topic 6: ARGs, games or not? (A Nakama)
Craig Harkness
Craig.Harkness at port.ac.uk
Fri Oct 10 07:56:36 EDT 2008
When I first started getting into ARGs the similarities with LARPing struck me as well. When describing ARGs/Multiplayer Novels/Immersive Experiences/Participatory
Entertainment Experiences to people I would say it was kind of like role play but it takes place in the "real" world and online and the role you play is yourself.
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: we are obsolete (RE: Copycat warning overalternative
reality games) (Adam Martin)
2. Re: we are obsolete (RE:Copycatwarningoveralternative reality
games) (Adam Martin)
3. Re: we are obsolete (RE:Copycatwarningoveralternative reality
games) (Gupfee)
4. Re: we are obsolete (RE:Copycatwarningoveralternative reality
games) (Wendy Despain)
5. Re: we are obsolete (RE: Copycatwarningoveralternative
reality games) (Will Emigh)
6. Re: ARGs, games or not? (A Nakama)
7. Re: we are obsolete (RE:Copycatwarningoveralternativereality
games) (Brian Clark)
8. Re: we are obsolete (RE:Copycatwarningoveralternative reality
games) (Brian Clark)
9. Re: we are obsolete (RE:Copycatwarningoveralternativereality
games) (mj williams)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 15:00:35 -0700
From: "Adam Martin" <adam.m.s.martin at googlemail.com>
Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE: Copycat warning
overalternative reality games)
To: "Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG" <arg_discuss at igda.org>
Message-ID:
<ca93830d0810091500g350f76c1g2e7e82e3b6694234 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Funnily enough, some people have revived the old debate recently on
the MUD-DEV mailing list about "what should we be calling Massively
Multiplayer Online Games, instead of "MMOGs"? That terminology sucks,
and is so unfair and restrictive and stupid!". Some nice ideas thrown
out, but not a single one of them will stick.
The problem is, it's NOT a definition, it's a "label". As is ARG. ARG
is actually quite good IMHO (considering how intrinsically bad it is),
because it often gets used as a (pronounceable) acronym, which at
least slightly makes it more label-like and less descriptive in
people's minds.
(and because it inspired this conversation, which I think has a lot of
good points raised already :))
Steve provided a great concrete example of the label issue:
2008/10/9 Steve Peters <scpeters at gmail.com>:
>
> Honestly, I'm not so much concerned about what I should call it as much as
> just doing it, at this point. Typically, clients and potential clients
> (whether marketing execs or purely creative partners) still need to be SHOWN
> what an "ARG" is, so the term is meaningless for them as well. Because it's
> something different. Every. Time. :)
Yep, it's meaningless. We don't need a meaningful term (they wouldn't
understand that anyway, until it's explained to them), we just need a
label that works.
There's 3 million hits for "arg game" on google, but that's enough to
make it a very useful label for now to carry on using - if only
because it makes what you do discoverable by the people who probably
want to find you (*especially* if they don't themselvs really
understand what these things-called-ARGs *really* are).
I've been through these naming debates before. I've tried really hard,
along with others, to no avail (although I believe we all ended up
slightly increasing our own understanding of the context and essence
of the things we were talking about). Usually, they come up with a
handful of nice ideas, but don't effect any meaningful change. The
weight of "pre-existing usage" is almost impossible to overcome - and
usually the debates focus on "fixing the definition", when the name
isn't actually a definition at all. IMHO.
Adam
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 15:03:18 -0700
From: "Adam Martin" <adam.m.s.martin at googlemail.com>
Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete
(RE:Copycatwarningoveralternative reality games)
To: "Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG" <arg_discuss at igda.org>
Message-ID:
<ca93830d0810091503n5c2b01afg6992a5aabfe0839 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
2008/10/9 Brian Clark <bclark at gmdstudios.com>:
> So no need for an IGDA SIG anymore?
The IGDA seems happy with supporting us so far :), and with what we do
(and it's relationship to games). IGDA's "games" remit seems to be set
very broad, generally speaking.
They're even offering us money, just waiting for us to tell them what
we need it for...
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 18:17:29 -0400
From: Gupfee <gupfee at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete
(RE:Copycatwarningoveralternative reality games)
To: "Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG" <arg_discuss at igda.org>
Message-ID:
<2cbc13f50810091517n2ff20589tc75de698f9d2a218 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
*They're even offering us money, just waiting for us to tell them what
we need it for...*
Maybe we should run an ARG...
On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 6:03 PM, Adam Martin
<adam.m.s.martin at googlemail.com>wrote:
> 2008/10/9 Brian Clark <bclark at gmdstudios.com>:
> > So no need for an IGDA SIG anymore?
>
> The IGDA seems happy with supporting us so far :), and with what we do
> (and it's relationship to games). IGDA's "games" remit seems to be set
> very broad, generally speaking.
>
> They're even offering us money, just waiting for us to tell them what
> we need it for...
> _______________________________________________
> ARG_Discuss mailing list
> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
>
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 15:32:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Wendy Despain" <wendeth at wendydespain.com>
Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete
(RE:Copycatwarningoveralternative reality games)
To: "Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG" <arg_discuss at igda.org>
Message-ID:
<59d86d5366095a5ee0e70f2bcdcaa61f.squirrel at webmail.wendydespain.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
I for one have no problem with the ARG label or the hanging out with
video game folks. Videogames are more and more interested in narrative
these days, and I think the "gamey" parts of ARGs improve the player
experience.
And when I tell videogame devs that I also do ARGs they no longer
stare blankly at me and think I just choked on something.
I plan to continue to embrace it and love it and call it george.
Wendy Despain
quantumcontent.com
On Thu, October 9, 2008 3:03 pm, Adam Martin wrote:
> 2008/10/9 Brian Clark <bclark at gmdstudios.com>:
>> So no need for an IGDA SIG anymore?
>
> The IGDA seems happy with supporting us so far :), and with what we do
> (and it's relationship to games). IGDA's "games" remit seems to be set
> very broad, generally speaking.
>
> They're even offering us money, just waiting for us to tell them what
> we need it for...
> _______________________________________________
> ARG_Discuss mailing list
> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
>
Wendy Despain
quantumcontent.com
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 20:26:35 -0400
From: "Will Emigh" <will at studiocypher.com>
Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE:
Copycatwarningoveralternative reality games)
To: "Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG" <arg_discuss at igda.org>
Message-ID:
<106548320810091726s700a2d7ekd86ed4a8705dcd8 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
We always called them Multiplayer Novels for a similar reason. It's a
participatory process (multiplayer) that produces something "dead" (novel).
Of course, that has its own problems, not least of which is an
unpronounceable acronym.
-- Will
On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 3:09 PM, Brian Clark <bclark at gmdstudios.com> wrote:
> Now we're getting somewhere, Gupfee. I take back everything I said about
> agreeing with Monello, he's completely wrong.
>
> We don't care about the painting at all. That's what makes us difference.
> We
> do care about the act of painting ... the painting is mere documentation.
>
> I can point to the Art of the Heist, but we all agree is a documentation of
> something else, and this documentation is "dead" rather "living".
>
> The painting and the book are "dead" as well. What are the words we use to
> describing other living processes?
>
> Improv? Open Source? Collaborative?
>
> It is the introduction of time and control into all those dead media that
> makes us difference.
>
> I move we change the name "No Longer Dead Media".
>
> Next problem ... global economic crisis! Solve as an ARG community crisis
> problem! Discuss!
>
> Brian
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org]
> On
> Behalf Of Gupfee
> Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 3:02 PM
> To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG
> Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE:
> Copycatwarningoveralternative reality games)
>
> On a more serious note, after hanging out w/Lance at DIY Days, I've been
> thinking of this kind of stuff as "Open Source Media".
>
> Marie
>
> On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 2:58 PM, Brian Clark <bclark at gmdstudios.com> wrote:
>
> > Hmm, I kind of like Steve's. I've been thinking about "Shows Hinged in
> > Technology" but others in my office think "Simple Live Ulterior Stories"
> > will close a lot more phat ad contracts!
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org]
> > On
> > Behalf Of Andrea Phillips
> > Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 2:09 PM
> > To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG
> > Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE: Copycat
> > warningoveralternative reality games)
> >
> > On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 2:04 PM, Steve Peters <scpeters at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > At this point, we've been referring to them as Participatory
> > Entertainment
> > > Experiences...
> > >
> >
> > Wow, and I didn't think we could come up with a worse acronym if we'd
> > tried!
> >
> >
> > --
> > Andrea Phillips
> > http://www.deusexmachinatio.com
> > Words * Culture * Interaction
> > _______________________________________________
> > ARG_Discuss mailing list
> > ARG_Discuss at igda.org
> > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > ARG_Discuss mailing list
> > ARG_Discuss at igda.org
> > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
> >
> _______________________________________________
> ARG_Discuss mailing list
> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
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>
> _______________________________________________
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>
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 22:42:55 -0400
From: "A Nakama" <a.r.nakama at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] ARGs, games or not?
To: "Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG" <arg_discuss at igda.org>
Message-ID:
<eb1787f70810091942u3a7020e9g74a0c65de1b2bd7c at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> Absolutely. I take a psycho-social approach: all group interaction becomes
> a
> form of gameplay. That's human nature.
>
Here's a good place to throw in my sideways semantic 2c. If you take a
similar premise (that "reality" in civilized society is based more on social
contract than on physicality), then LARPing is an ARG in a very limited
media. For some span of time, a group of people decide to act as if some
reality different from the rest of the world's is the "real" one. The
difference is that all the players are (usually) in the same room, and the
boundaries are a bit more clear.
I just find it useful when designing to consider LARPs and ARGs the same
beast except for scaling. And I'm a fan of thinking of stories/games as
this abstract field of the same thing with different degrees of agency and
emphasis on storytelling and other more fuzzy elements (ie games make better
stories and vice versa). Thanks to participatory and fan culture, even a
one-way broadcast movie or a book can take on ARGlike elements with a
creative enough fan at the other end--and this is without getting all
post-moderny.
In other words, so long as we're violating the Standard Model of our
communal social contract, I think of it as an ARG, and try to consider what
tools and scale I need to best make it an interesting and resonant
experience.
~ Adam Nakama
>
> "And second, I for one am interested in exploring more game-like aspects of
> this...medium. Thing."
>
> So is that something different than this other stuff people are talking
> about that aren't using game in their definition?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org]
> On
> Behalf Of John Evans
> Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 3:59 PM
> To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG
> Subject: [arg_discuss] ARGs, games or not?
>
> >From: Brian Clark <bclark at gmdstudios.com>
> >Next problem ... global economic crisis! Solve as an ARG community crisis
> >problem! Discuss!
>
> So...SuperStruct?
>
> >From: Brian Clark <bclark at gmdstudios.com>
> >So the only consensus we really have is that whatever this, it isn't
> "game",
> >eh? Haven't seen anyone just tag something on game ... like "platformless
> >gaming".
>
> Well, hold on there. Personally, I tend to think of them as games, but
> that might be because of my own interest in all things game-ish.
> There are many definitions of "game" but let me pull one out of my...
> brain: "Player performs an action, action is judged, player receives
> feedback/rewards based on performance." There's also the voluntary/
> magic circle stuff that is very important but not to this discussion.
>
> So, using that definition, any sort of "interaction" could be thought
> of as a "game". If you just have, say, story elements provided over
> different types of media...that's less of a game and more storytelling,
> but if you have people contributing, then it's more game-like.
> Superstruct appears to be quite game-like, with points and "badges"
> awarded for players who contribute.
>
> I have two ultimate points: First, if someone says "game", I think
> that's appropriate. And second, I for one am interested in exploring
> more game-like aspects of this...medium. Thing.
>
> --
> John Evans
> Chaoseed Software - http://chaoseed.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> ARG_Discuss mailing list
> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
>
> _______________________________________________
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> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
>
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 07:08:16 -0400
From: "Brian Clark" <bclark at gmdstudios.com>
Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete
(RE:Copycatwarningoveralternativereality games)
To: "'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG'" <arg_discuss at igda.org>
Message-ID: <004301c92ac8$7f737a70$6700a8c0 at Tricorder>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
"Maybe we should run an ARG..."
Or hire a NAMING consultant! ;)
-----Original Message-----
From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On
Behalf Of Gupfee
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 6:17 PM
To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG
Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete
(RE:Copycatwarningoveralternativereality games)
*They're even offering us money, just waiting for us to tell them what
we need it for...*
Maybe we should run an ARG...
On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 6:03 PM, Adam Martin
<adam.m.s.martin at googlemail.com>wrote:
> 2008/10/9 Brian Clark <bclark at gmdstudios.com>:
> > So no need for an IGDA SIG anymore?
>
> The IGDA seems happy with supporting us so far :), and with what we do
> (and it's relationship to games). IGDA's "games" remit seems to be set
> very broad, generally speaking.
>
> They're even offering us money, just waiting for us to tell them what
> we need it for...
> _______________________________________________
> ARG_Discuss mailing list
> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
>
_______________________________________________
ARG_Discuss mailing list
ARG_Discuss at igda.org
http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 07:22:29 -0400
From: "Brian Clark" <bclark at gmdstudios.com>
Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete
(RE:Copycatwarningoveralternative reality games)
To: "'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG'" <arg_discuss at igda.org>
Message-ID: <007801c92aca$7b9bd3a0$6700a8c0 at Tricorder>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
"I plan to continue to embrace it and love it and call it george."
I hope no one took my Swiftian arguments too seriously yesterday: I was just
being overly-provocative to see what oozes out if we pick the scab off. Plus
Monello gave me $5 (but I also had to eat a bug.)
If I had to give my serious opinion, though, it is a variant of Adam's: ARG
was always a label, not a genre not a media not an art form. It was a label
applied by the fan community to describe SOME of what we do, but not ALL of
what we do. Internally, as a lab and studio, we see far less distinction
between our projects, but then we essentially study digital human
interaction (so that's fine). As a creator, the label is useful if it
provides some expectation of the experience the audience might have, so I
find myself using "ARGish" far more than I use "ARG".
If I had to pick a hill to plant my flag on, the closest match would be
Experience Design of the post-Shedroff variety. I think Adam hit another key
point though, which is the general sense of d?j? vu on definitions to the
1990s and MUD/MOO/MUSH, a stable triad of different definitions and goals
for something very similar. I've always had a nagging suspicion that these
same definitions apply here as well ... that part of the difference between
my work that gets called ARG and what doesn't is related to the MUD/MOO
distinction (MUD=ARG, MOO="Extended Experience" roughly.)
But that really just brings us back to Monello's "lots of experimental
variety" comment that opened all of this, and only really brings to it the
idea that ARG might just be a subset of that variety rather than the
umbrella.
Which begs what the umbrella concept is all over again, right?
-----Original Message-----
From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On
Behalf Of Wendy Despain
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 6:32 PM
To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG
Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE:Copycatwarningoveralternative
reality games)
I for one have no problem with the ARG label or the hanging out with
video game folks. Videogames are more and more interested in narrative
these days, and I think the "gamey" parts of ARGs improve the player
experience.
And when I tell videogame devs that I also do ARGs they no longer
stare blankly at me and think I just choked on something.
I plan to continue to embrace it and love it and call it george.
Wendy Despain
quantumcontent.com
On Thu, October 9, 2008 3:03 pm, Adam Martin wrote:
> 2008/10/9 Brian Clark <bclark at gmdstudios.com>:
>> So no need for an IGDA SIG anymore?
>
> The IGDA seems happy with supporting us so far :), and with what we do
> (and it's relationship to games). IGDA's "games" remit seems to be set
> very broad, generally speaking.
>
> They're even offering us money, just waiting for us to tell them what
> we need it for...
> _______________________________________________
> ARG_Discuss mailing list
> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
>
Wendy Despain
quantumcontent.com
_______________________________________________
ARG_Discuss mailing list
ARG_Discuss at igda.org
http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 12:28:20 +0100
From: mj williams <mj_williams at mac.com>
Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete
(RE:Copycatwarningoveralternativereality games)
To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG <arg_discuss at igda.org>
Message-ID: <CB95B534-217D-48FF-8446-1EDB500D9ED7 at mac.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes
"...then they changed their name back to the Thamesmen, so we became
the New Originals"
This is a bit like being in a band, isn't it?
On 10 Oct 2008, at 12:08, Brian Clark wrote:
"Maybe we should run an ARG..."
Or hire a NAMING consultant! ;)
-----Original Message-----
From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-
bounces at igda.org] On
Behalf Of Gupfee
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 6:17 PM
To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG
Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete
(RE:Copycatwarningoveralternativereality games)
*They're even offering us money, just waiting for us to tell them what
we need it for...*
Maybe we should run an ARG...
On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 6:03 PM, Adam Martin
<adam.m.s.martin at googlemail.com>wrote:
> 2008/10/9 Brian Clark <bclark at gmdstudios.com>:
>> So no need for an IGDA SIG anymore?
>
> The IGDA seems happy with supporting us so far :), and with what we do
> (and it's relationship to games). IGDA's "games" remit seems to be set
> very broad, generally speaking.
>
> They're even offering us money, just waiting for us to tell them what
> we need it for...
> _______________________________________________
> ARG_Discuss mailing list
> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
>
_______________________________________________
ARG_Discuss mailing list
ARG_Discuss at igda.org
http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
_______________________________________________
ARG_Discuss mailing list
ARG_Discuss at igda.org
http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
------------------------------
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