From morgan at calhoonplay.com Thu Oct 2 14:20:47 2008 From: morgan at calhoonplay.com (Morgan Calhoon) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 14:20:47 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Interactive Experiments Message-ID: Hey...sorry for the delay in responding, I just finished putting up an art exhibition... When I do my "interactive experiments" I try to find a simple mechanic or interaction that I think might be an interesting component to a larger game. They are not always completely unique, but I want to see firsthand how the activity develops and how users interact with it and the other participants. Since I'm in graduate school and work part-time at a board game manufacturer, I have a lot of exposure to people who would have enough time or interest to participate. The undergraduates and other graduate students have all been very helpful and are easily persuaded by the promise of a good time or a beer. My coworkers are also helpful because they are curious what I'm doing in graduate school. I usually use a very small number of people for at least the initial experiment - I've used as little as three. After deciding if the idea has any promise I refine the experiment and try it again. The most participation I have had is 30 people. I understand that games and interactions change with the number of participants, but I like that this method prevents me from wasting time on things that won't work and helps me figure out the bugs on ideas. Most of my experiments are fairly low tech, at least initially. I usually have ideas about how I'd like the tech parts to work, but sometimes I think it's more important to see if the basic idea is any fun before trying to figure out how to make the technology work properly. I'm just getting to a point where I'm starting to combine my experiments together. I tend to think a lot about the system and functions of a game first and then add a story or skin to it. Most people I have met seem to work the opposite way, but this seems to work for me. I'm including the analysis of one of my experiments below... *Name:* What Would You Do? (WWYD?) *Objective:* to test out picture messaging as a potential game mechanic, to see if players are more or less adventurous with someone else's decisions, to transfer some in-game control from the game's creator to the game's players, to see if players would play a game where they needed to be "on call" for a set amount of time. *Importance:* I am very used to controlling games because I created them and it was important for me to temporarily relinquish some of that power, perceived or actual, to the players. I needed to be just as dedicated to the game as the players for the game to function. I was curious if the picture messages would be engaging enough to hold the players' attention and dedication for 3 hours. * Method/Gameplay:* I gathered 3 participants (2 graduate students and 1 adult with a typical work schedule) to play the game on a predetermined Friday from 10am-1pm. Each participant was sent a picture message the evening before to remind them of the event. At 10am I sent all players a picture message and a short question. Example: I took a picture down the street where I was and asked, "Where should I go?" Then I would follow the directions of the person who responded first and took another photo to show what I did. This process continued once every 15 minutes. * Strategies/Technologies:* I tried to take pictures that were interesting or amusing to the players. It was also important that I asked a general question and let the picture itself constrain possible responses further because I thought this would more actively involve the participants. After picture message the players I uploaded the question and answer images to flickr so that the participants could see what the outcomes were. * Outcome:* The short time period between messages made it necessary for me to think of topics and photos quickly. Sometimes I had barely sent the message and had already received a reply. This was relieving because I was no longer wondering what I would do next. Some of the responses were also humorous. Example: I took a photo of a display of books and asked, "What book should I buy for my dad?" Two of the players responded, "The one with the hot girl." One player said she enjoyed getting so many picture messages and the excitement to see what each one was of. My questions and photos got increasingly more random and creative as the game progressed. The game would have been improved had I figured how to upload the photos somewhere that the players could check to see what the outcomes were more immediately, instead of the following day. I think it would have also been interesting to allow people who do not have picture phones to participate from online in the decision-making process. I'm also curious what kind of photos and questions other people might use if they were the person in that role. Sorry this is so long! I really wanted to answer your questions and share what I'm working on. Thanks! Morgan From julien at extralab.fr Thu Oct 2 18:45:11 2008 From: julien at extralab.fr (Julien Aubert) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 00:45:11 +0200 Subject: [arg_discuss] Interactive Experiments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46c4cdce0810021545i35c7b39dj2c2a4500bef8ab38@mail.gmail.com> That is very interesting Morgan, fantastic idea! Are there any links you'd like to share? 2008/10/2 Morgan Calhoon > Hey...sorry for the delay in responding, I just finished putting up an art > exhibition... > > When I do my "interactive experiments" I try to find a simple mechanic or > interaction that I think might be an interesting component to a larger > game. > They are not always completely unique, but I want to see firsthand how the > activity develops and how users interact with it and the other > participants. > > > Since I'm in graduate school and work part-time at a board game > manufacturer, I have a lot of exposure to people who would have enough time > or interest to participate. The undergraduates and other graduate students > have all been very helpful and are easily persuaded by the promise of a > good > time or a beer. My coworkers are also helpful because they are curious what > I'm doing in graduate school. I usually use a very small number of people > for at least the initial experiment - I've used as little as three. After > deciding if the idea has any promise I refine the experiment and try it > again. The most participation I have had is 30 people. > > I understand that games and interactions change with the number of > participants, but I like that this method prevents me from wasting time on > things that won't work and helps me figure out the bugs on ideas. Most of > my > experiments are fairly low tech, at least initially. I usually have ideas > about how I'd like the tech parts to work, but sometimes I think it's more > important to see if the basic idea is any fun before trying to figure out > how to make the technology work properly. I'm just getting to a point where > I'm starting to combine my experiments together. > > I tend to think a lot about the system and functions of a game first and > then add a story or skin to it. Most people I have met seem to work the > opposite way, but this seems to work for me. > > I'm including the analysis of one of my experiments below... > > *Name:* What Would You Do? (WWYD?) > > *Objective:* to test out picture messaging as a potential game mechanic, to > see if players are more or less adventurous with someone else's decisions, > to transfer some in-game control from the game's creator to the game's > players, to see if players would play a game where they needed to be "on > call" for a set amount of time. > > *Importance:* I am very used to controlling games because I created them > and > it was important for me to temporarily relinquish some of that power, > perceived or actual, to the players. I needed to be just as dedicated to > the > game as the players for the game to function. I was curious if the picture > messages would be engaging enough to hold the players' attention and > dedication for 3 hours. > * > Method/Gameplay:* I gathered 3 participants (2 graduate students and 1 > adult > with a typical work schedule) to play the game on a predetermined Friday > from 10am-1pm. Each participant was sent a picture message the evening > before to remind them of the event. At 10am I sent all players a picture > message and a short question. Example: I took a picture down the street > where I was and asked, "Where should I go?" Then I would follow the > directions of the person who responded first and took another photo to show > what I did. This process continued once every 15 minutes. > * > Strategies/Technologies:* I tried to take pictures that were interesting or > amusing to the players. It was also important that I asked a general > question and let the picture itself constrain possible responses further > because I thought this would more actively involve the participants. After > picture message the players I uploaded the question and answer images to > flickr so that the participants could see what the outcomes were. > * > Outcome:* The short time period between messages made it necessary for me > to > think of topics and photos quickly. Sometimes I had barely sent the message > and had already received a reply. This was relieving because I was no > longer > wondering what I would do next. Some of the responses were also humorous. > Example: I took a photo of a display of books and asked, "What book should > I > buy for my dad?" Two of the players responded, "The one with the hot girl." > One player said she enjoyed getting so many picture messages and the > excitement to see what each one was of. My questions and photos got > increasingly more random and creative as the game progressed. > > The game would have been improved had I figured how to upload the photos > somewhere that the players could check to see what the outcomes were more > immediately, instead of the following day. I think it would have also been > interesting to allow people who do not have picture phones to participate > from online in the decision-making process. I'm also curious what kind of > photos and questions other people might use if they were the person in that > role. > > Sorry this is so long! I really wanted to answer your questions and share > what I'm working on. > > Thanks! Morgan > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > -- julien aubert aka natty foggarty (SL) +33176622062 extralab | paris www.extralab.fr www.twitter.com/juli3n From morgan at calhoonplay.com Mon Oct 6 12:15:06 2008 From: morgan at calhoonplay.com (Morgan Calhoon) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 12:15:06 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Interactive Experiments Message-ID: You can see at least a little bit about most my projects here: www.calhoonplay.com THanks! From mmonello at campfirenyc.com Wed Oct 8 10:51:46 2008 From: mmonello at campfirenyc.com (Mike Monello) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 07:51:46 -0700 Subject: [arg_discuss] Copycat warning over alternative reality games Message-ID: Stories like this are why I always bristle against defining an ARG versus living under a looser definition such as cross-media narrative or similar. I still maintain we are (or should be) in a period of extreme experimentation, the results of which will ultimately define what it is and what the sub-genres or styles are. When we codify a strict definition around ARG, we turn it into a series of tactics rather than a formal structure under which an infinite variety of projects can live. When people use the term "ARG," it should be the way people use "sitcom" or "soap-opera" -- only a specific form of cross media engagement. http://www.nma.co.uk/Articles/39895/Copycat+warning+over+alternative+reality+games.html Copycat warning over alternative reality games Platform: Internet | Author: Luan Goldie | Source: nma.co.uk | Published: 08.10.08 Brands are being warned against rashly adopting alternate reality games (ARGs) as their use as immersive brand experiences takes off. Cancer Research, Red Cross and Puffin (whose Young Bond ARG ends this week), are among the recent wave of brands to join the new trend for creating ARGs, which aim to engage consumers in connected online and offline activities. Early ARGs have been successful. McDonald's The Lost Ring game, supporting its sponsorship of the Beijing... ... Olympics, attracted more than 2.5m people in 100 countries, for example. However, the online industry has urged brands to be cautious about adopting them ad the next craze. Toby Feldman, marketing director for wrestling federation WWE, said the organisation had looked at ARGs as a marketing technique but decided it would not be an appropriate engagement tool. "It's down to the brand you have. One size never fits all, and if it's not relevant then it can very quickly become gimmicky," said Feldman. "If you're first to do something then it will work as it will stir interest and publicity." "Everyone looks for innovative ways to get messages across but if too many others follow suit then it becomes run of mill and waters down its effectiveness," he added. Likewise, Rei Inamoto, co-chief creative officer at AKQA's US office, the agency behind McDonald's The Lost Ring, said, "I do feel that ARGs are a bit of a fad right now. If agencies and clients do it blindly just because it's the buzzword, it will just lead to copycat tactics." However, Alex Miller, head of Jam, i-level's social media department, said it was clear why ARGs are becoming popular among brands looking to create strong brand connections. "If the buzzwords at the moment are audience participation, interaction and empowerment then a branded ARG, if executed well, ticks all of those boxes," he said. Adrian Hon, chief creative officer at ARG specialist Six to Start, which recently rolled out a cross-media competition for Penguin called We Tell Stories, agreed that interest was growing. "It hasn't happened overnight, but we're now getting brands coming to us all the time. Two years ago we had to explain what these games were for, but now it's very popular and we're getting approached all the time." Other major brands, while not ruling out ARGs feel it's too early to make the investment. Emma Jenkins, head of interactive marketing at Procter & Gamble, said, "It's still very new and gaming is evolving so rapidly. Anything we do has to stay in line with our consumers, so we wouldn't rule it out completely. We'd look at it, but not yet." Audi's UK PR manager David Ingram agreed. In 2005, Audi US launched ARG The Art of the Heist, which encouraged players to find a stolen Audi A3. The game had more than half a million participants and created over 4,000 test drives. "We're a bit more traditional," said Ingram. "ARGs have never been on the cards for us. We've run campaigns on PlayStation and we're confident in doing that, but not ARGs yet." ARGs utilise media across multiple platforms, including mobile, print, outdoor and online, with the player often able to influence the story. The first ARG was The Beast, used to promote the film Artificial Intelligence, with players taking part in a game that incorporated websites, email, telephone conversations. Sky won an nma Effectiveness Award in 2007 for its ARG for TV show 24. Last week the Red Cross launched its Traces of Hope ARG to raise awareness of civilians separated from their friends and families due to conflicts around the world. --- Mike Monello Partner, Campfire http://www.campfirenyc.com From andrhia at gmail.com Wed Oct 8 11:20:13 2008 From: andrhia at gmail.com (Andrea Phillips) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 11:20:13 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Informal SIG Chat Tomorrow! Message-ID: <5c799fd60810080820s332f1a08q50e037a1b2aa2e3d@mail.gmail.com> There's a get-together on IRC tomorrow! The time is: 6am PST; 9am EST; 2pm UK. Directions on joining the chat are here: http://www.igda.org/wiki/Alternate_Reality_Games_SIG/IRC_Chats/IRC_Instructions Hope to see you there! -- Andrea Phillips http://www.deusexmachinatio.com Words * Culture * Interaction From adrijackmarie at gmail.com Wed Oct 8 12:46:47 2008 From: adrijackmarie at gmail.com (Adrien MARIE) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 18:46:47 +0200 Subject: [arg_discuss] Informal SIG Chat Tomorrow! In-Reply-To: <5c799fd60810080820s332f1a08q50e037a1b2aa2e3d@mail.gmail.com> References: <5c799fd60810080820s332f1a08q50e037a1b2aa2e3d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <318C7F0B-56BD-44B7-BCAA-71D6109B7DF8@gmail.com> Ok, fine by me ;) On 8 Oct 2008, at 5:20, Andrea Phillips wrote: > There's a get-together on IRC tomorrow! The time is: 6am PST; 9am EST; > 2pm UK. Directions on joining the chat are here: > http://www.igda.org/wiki/Alternate_Reality_Games_SIG/IRC_Chats/IRC_Instructions > > Hope to see you there! > > -- > Andrea Phillips > http://www.deusexmachinatio.com > Words * Culture * Interaction > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From bclark at gmdstudios.com Thu Oct 9 11:02:50 2008 From: bclark at gmdstudios.com (Brian Clark) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 11:02:50 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Copycat warning over alternative reality games In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00ac01c92a20$19900a00$6700a8c0@Tricorder> No one took "The Hand Grenade" Monello's bait, eh? No assist from me, sir: this was what had me foaming at the mouth 2 ARGfests ago. "ARG" isn't just "a marketing approach" ... it is one that isn't even loved by marketers. Attempts to reclaim in the word in non-ironic ways are doomed to failure, which is why very few of us as practitioners use that word anymore. Upsides are broader than even what "The Hand Grenade" suggests, though, as his definition still doesn't provide a place for non-fiction in that continuum. Or maybe what ever supplants ARG only cares about obvert fiction, but the same principles work without having to play make believe. But in reality, that news story is no stranger than "Marketers Still Struggle To Understand This Strange Nightmare World They Inherited". :) -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Mike Monello Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2008 10:52 AM To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG Subject: [arg_discuss] Copycat warning over alternative reality games Stories like this are why I always bristle against defining an ARG versus living under a looser definition such as cross-media narrative or similar. I still maintain we are (or should be) in a period of extreme experimentation, the results of which will ultimately define what it is and what the sub-genres or styles are. When we codify a strict definition around ARG, we turn it into a series of tactics rather than a formal structure under which an infinite variety of projects can live. When people use the term "ARG," it should be the way people use "sitcom" or "soap-opera" -- only a specific form of cross media engagement. http://www.nma.co.uk/Articles/39895/Copycat+warning+over+alternative+reality +games.html Copycat warning over alternative reality games Platform: Internet | Author: Luan Goldie | Source: nma.co.uk | Published: 08.10.08 Brands are being warned against rashly adopting alternate reality games (ARGs) as their use as immersive brand experiences takes off. Cancer Research, Red Cross and Puffin (whose Young Bond ARG ends this week), are among the recent wave of brands to join the new trend for creating ARGs, which aim to engage consumers in connected online and offline activities. Early ARGs have been successful. McDonald's The Lost Ring game, supporting its sponsorship of the Beijing... ... Olympics, attracted more than 2.5m people in 100 countries, for example. However, the online industry has urged brands to be cautious about adopting them ad the next craze. Toby Feldman, marketing director for wrestling federation WWE, said the organisation had looked at ARGs as a marketing technique but decided it would not be an appropriate engagement tool. "It's down to the brand you have. One size never fits all, and if it's not relevant then it can very quickly become gimmicky," said Feldman. "If you're first to do something then it will work as it will stir interest and publicity." "Everyone looks for innovative ways to get messages across but if too many others follow suit then it becomes run of mill and waters down its effectiveness," he added. Likewise, Rei Inamoto, co-chief creative officer at AKQA's US office, the agency behind McDonald's The Lost Ring, said, "I do feel that ARGs are a bit of a fad right now. If agencies and clients do it blindly just because it's the buzzword, it will just lead to copycat tactics." However, Alex Miller, head of Jam, i-level's social media department, said it was clear why ARGs are becoming popular among brands looking to create strong brand connections. "If the buzzwords at the moment are audience participation, interaction and empowerment then a branded ARG, if executed well, ticks all of those boxes," he said. Adrian Hon, chief creative officer at ARG specialist Six to Start, which recently rolled out a cross-media competition for Penguin called We Tell Stories, agreed that interest was growing. "It hasn't happened overnight, but we're now getting brands coming to us all the time. Two years ago we had to explain what these games were for, but now it's very popular and we're getting approached all the time." Other major brands, while not ruling out ARGs feel it's too early to make the investment. Emma Jenkins, head of interactive marketing at Procter & Gamble, said, "It's still very new and gaming is evolving so rapidly. Anything we do has to stay in line with our consumers, so we wouldn't rule it out completely. We'd look at it, but not yet." Audi's UK PR manager David Ingram agreed. In 2005, Audi US launched ARG The Art of the Heist, which encouraged players to find a stolen Audi A3. The game had more than half a million participants and created over 4,000 test drives. "We're a bit more traditional," said Ingram. "ARGs have never been on the cards for us. We've run campaigns on PlayStation and we're confident in doing that, but not ARGs yet." ARGs utilise media across multiple platforms, including mobile, print, outdoor and online, with the player often able to influence the story. The first ARG was The Beast, used to promote the film Artificial Intelligence, with players taking part in a game that incorporated websites, email, telephone conversations. Sky won an nma Effectiveness Award in 2007 for its ARG for TV show 24. Last week the Red Cross launched its Traces of Hope ARG to raise awareness of civilians separated from their friends and families due to conflicts around the world. --- Mike Monello Partner, Campfire http://www.campfirenyc.com _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From adrian at mssv.net Thu Oct 9 11:29:45 2008 From: adrian at mssv.net (Adrian Hon) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 16:29:45 +0100 Subject: [arg_discuss] Copycat warning over alternative reality games In-Reply-To: <00ac01c92a20$19900a00$6700a8c0@Tricorder> References: <00ac01c92a20$19900a00$6700a8c0@Tricorder> Message-ID: <52a6f3110810090829i42240394x77251f0529cc0dd@mail.gmail.com> Yeah, not a lot in that article surprises me; just confirms that these guys don't really understand what's going on. I don't really have a lot to offer this discussion other than saying 'I agree'. Certainly it's a shame that ARGs are being pigeonholed in this way (not that 'ARG' as a term holds a lot of useful meaning). Most of the interesting work is being done outside of marketing, right now. Adrian On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 4:02 PM, Brian Clark wrote: > No one took "The Hand Grenade" Monello's bait, eh? No assist from me, sir: > this was what had me foaming at the mouth 2 ARGfests ago. > > "ARG" isn't just "a marketing approach" ... it is one that isn't even loved > by marketers. Attempts to reclaim in the word in non-ironic ways are doomed > to failure, which is why very few of us as practitioners use that word > anymore. > > Upsides are broader than even what "The Hand Grenade" suggests, though, as > his definition still doesn't provide a place for non-fiction in that > continuum. Or maybe what ever supplants ARG only cares about obvert fiction, > but the same principles work without having to play make believe. > > But in reality, that news story is no stranger than "Marketers Still > Struggle To Understand This Strange Nightmare World They Inherited". > > :) > > -----Original Message----- > From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On > Behalf Of Mike Monello > Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2008 10:52 AM > To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG > Subject: [arg_discuss] Copycat warning over alternative reality games > > Stories like this are why I always bristle against defining an ARG versus > living under a looser definition such as cross-media narrative or similar. > > I still maintain we are (or should be) in a period of extreme > experimentation, the results of which will ultimately define what it is and > what the sub-genres or styles are. When we codify a strict definition around > ARG, we turn it into a series of tactics rather than a formal structure > under which an infinite variety of projects can live. When people use the > term "ARG," it should be the way people use "sitcom" or "soap-opera" -- only > a specific form of cross media engagement. > > > http://www.nma.co.uk/Articles/39895/Copycat+warning+over+alternative+reality > +games.html > > Copycat warning over alternative reality games > > Platform: Internet | Author: Luan Goldie | Source: nma.co.uk | Published: > 08.10.08 > > Brands are being warned against rashly adopting alternate reality games > (ARGs) as their use as immersive brand experiences takes off. > > Cancer Research, Red Cross and Puffin (whose Young Bond ARG ends this week), > are among the recent wave of brands to join the new trend for creating ARGs, > which aim to engage consumers in connected online and offline activities. > > Early ARGs have been successful. McDonald's The Lost Ring game, supporting > its sponsorship of the Beijing... > > ... Olympics, attracted more than 2.5m people in 100 countries, for example. > However, the online industry has urged brands to be cautious about adopting > them ad the next craze. > > Toby Feldman, marketing director for wrestling federation WWE, said the > organisation had looked at ARGs as a marketing technique but decided it > would not be an appropriate engagement tool. > > "It's down to the brand you have. One size never fits all, and if it's not > relevant then it can very quickly become gimmicky," said Feldman. "If you're > first to do something then it will work as it will stir interest and > publicity." > > "Everyone looks for innovative ways to get messages across but if too many > others follow suit then it becomes run of mill and waters down its > effectiveness," he added. > > Likewise, Rei Inamoto, co-chief creative officer at AKQA's US office, the > agency behind McDonald's The Lost Ring, said, "I do feel that ARGs are a bit > of a fad right now. If agencies and clients do it blindly just because it's > the buzzword, it will just lead to copycat tactics." > > However, Alex Miller, head of Jam, i-level's social media department, said > it was clear why ARGs are becoming popular among brands looking to create > strong brand connections. "If the buzzwords at the moment are audience > participation, interaction and empowerment then a branded ARG, if executed > well, ticks all of those boxes," he said. > > Adrian Hon, chief creative officer at ARG specialist Six to Start, which > recently rolled out a cross-media competition for Penguin called We Tell > Stories, agreed that interest was growing. "It hasn't happened overnight, > but we're now getting brands coming to us all the time. Two years ago we had > to explain what these games were for, but now it's very popular and we're > getting approached all the time." > > Other major brands, while not ruling out ARGs feel it's too early to make > the investment. Emma Jenkins, head of interactive marketing at Procter & > Gamble, said, "It's still very new and gaming is evolving so rapidly. > Anything we do has to stay in line with our consumers, so we wouldn't rule > it out completely. We'd look at it, but not yet." > > Audi's UK PR manager David Ingram agreed. In 2005, Audi US launched ARG The > Art of the Heist, which encouraged players to find a stolen Audi A3. The > game had more than half a million participants and created over 4,000 test > drives. > > "We're a bit more traditional," said Ingram. "ARGs have never been on the > cards for us. We've run campaigns on PlayStation and we're confident in > doing that, but not ARGs yet." > > ARGs utilise media across multiple platforms, including mobile, print, > outdoor and online, with the player often able to influence the story. The > first ARG was The Beast, used to promote the film Artificial Intelligence, > with players taking part in a game that incorporated websites, email, > telephone conversations. > > Sky won an nma Effectiveness Award in 2007 for its ARG for TV show 24. Last > week the Red Cross launched its Traces of Hope ARG to raise awareness of > civilians separated from their friends and families due to conflicts around > the world. > > > > > > --- > Mike Monello > Partner, Campfire > http://www.campfirenyc.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > > -- Adrian Hon - mssv.net Chief Creative at Six to Start - www.sixtostart.com Founder of Let's Change the Game - www.letschangethegame.org From dan at sixtostart.com Thu Oct 9 11:32:15 2008 From: dan at sixtostart.com (Dan Hon) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 16:32:15 +0100 Subject: [arg_discuss] Copycat warning over alternative reality games In-Reply-To: <52a6f3110810090829i42240394x77251f0529cc0dd@mail.gmail.com> References: <00ac01c92a20$19900a00$6700a8c0@Tricorder> <52a6f3110810090829i42240394x77251f0529cc0dd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: The article in the magazine is actually much longer - I'm trying to get hold of a print copy at the moment. Suffice to say that we're trying really, really hard to stop talking about "ARGs" - instead talking about "traditional ARGs" and the new, more general, cross- platform entertainment/game hotness. Which, really, is just Interesting and Engaging Content, Optimised to the Medium and Platform It's Being Delivered On. -- Dan Hon, CEO, Six to Start m: +44 7870 600 828 t: +44 33 3340 7490, f: +44 33 3340 7494 On 9 Oct 2008, at 16:29, Adrian Hon wrote: > Yeah, not a lot in that article surprises me; just confirms that these > guys don't really understand what's going on. I don't really have a > lot to offer this discussion other than saying 'I agree'. Certainly > it's a shame that ARGs are being pigeonholed in this way (not that > 'ARG' as a term holds a lot of useful meaning). Most of the > interesting work is being done outside of marketing, right now. > > Adrian > > On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 4:02 PM, Brian Clark > wrote: >> No one took "The Hand Grenade" Monello's bait, eh? No assist from >> me, sir: >> this was what had me foaming at the mouth 2 ARGfests ago. >> >> "ARG" isn't just "a marketing approach" ... it is one that isn't >> even loved >> by marketers. Attempts to reclaim in the word in non-ironic ways >> are doomed >> to failure, which is why very few of us as practitioners use that >> word >> anymore. >> >> Upsides are broader than even what "The Hand Grenade" suggests, >> though, as >> his definition still doesn't provide a place for non-fiction in that >> continuum. Or maybe what ever supplants ARG only cares about obvert >> fiction, >> but the same principles work without having to play make believe. >> >> But in reality, that news story is no stranger than "Marketers Still >> Struggle To Understand This Strange Nightmare World They Inherited". >> >> :) >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org >> ] On >> Behalf Of Mike Monello >> Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2008 10:52 AM >> To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG >> Subject: [arg_discuss] Copycat warning over alternative reality games >> >> Stories like this are why I always bristle against defining an ARG >> versus >> living under a looser definition such as cross-media narrative or >> similar. >> >> I still maintain we are (or should be) in a period of extreme >> experimentation, the results of which will ultimately define what >> it is and >> what the sub-genres or styles are. When we codify a strict >> definition around >> ARG, we turn it into a series of tactics rather than a formal >> structure >> under which an infinite variety of projects can live. When people >> use the >> term "ARG," it should be the way people use "sitcom" or "soap- >> opera" -- only >> a specific form of cross media engagement. >> >> >> http://www.nma.co.uk/Articles/39895/Copycat+warning+over+alternative+reality >> +games.html >> >> Copycat warning over alternative reality games >> >> Platform: Internet | Author: Luan Goldie | Source: nma.co.uk | >> Published: >> 08.10.08 >> >> Brands are being warned against rashly adopting alternate reality >> games >> (ARGs) as their use as immersive brand experiences takes off. >> >> Cancer Research, Red Cross and Puffin (whose Young Bond ARG ends >> this week), >> are among the recent wave of brands to join the new trend for >> creating ARGs, >> which aim to engage consumers in connected online and offline >> activities. >> >> Early ARGs have been successful. McDonald's The Lost Ring game, >> supporting >> its sponsorship of the Beijing... >> >> ... Olympics, attracted more than 2.5m people in 100 countries, for >> example. >> However, the online industry has urged brands to be cautious about >> adopting >> them ad the next craze. >> >> Toby Feldman, marketing director for wrestling federation WWE, said >> the >> organisation had looked at ARGs as a marketing technique but >> decided it >> would not be an appropriate engagement tool. >> >> "It's down to the brand you have. One size never fits all, and if >> it's not >> relevant then it can very quickly become gimmicky," said Feldman. >> "If you're >> first to do something then it will work as it will stir interest and >> publicity." >> >> "Everyone looks for innovative ways to get messages across but if >> too many >> others follow suit then it becomes run of mill and waters down its >> effectiveness," he added. >> >> Likewise, Rei Inamoto, co-chief creative officer at AKQA's US >> office, the >> agency behind McDonald's The Lost Ring, said, "I do feel that ARGs >> are a bit >> of a fad right now. If agencies and clients do it blindly just >> because it's >> the buzzword, it will just lead to copycat tactics." >> >> However, Alex Miller, head of Jam, i-level's social media >> department, said >> it was clear why ARGs are becoming popular among brands looking to >> create >> strong brand connections. "If the buzzwords at the moment are >> audience >> participation, interaction and empowerment then a branded ARG, if >> executed >> well, ticks all of those boxes," he said. >> >> Adrian Hon, chief creative officer at ARG specialist Six to Start, >> which >> recently rolled out a cross-media competition for Penguin called We >> Tell >> Stories, agreed that interest was growing. "It hasn't happened >> overnight, >> but we're now getting brands coming to us all the time. Two years >> ago we had >> to explain what these games were for, but now it's very popular and >> we're >> getting approached all the time." >> >> Other major brands, while not ruling out ARGs feel it's too early >> to make >> the investment. Emma Jenkins, head of interactive marketing at >> Procter & >> Gamble, said, "It's still very new and gaming is evolving so rapidly. >> Anything we do has to stay in line with our consumers, so we >> wouldn't rule >> it out completely. We'd look at it, but not yet." >> >> Audi's UK PR manager David Ingram agreed. In 2005, Audi US launched >> ARG The >> Art of the Heist, which encouraged players to find a stolen Audi >> A3. The >> game had more than half a million participants and created over >> 4,000 test >> drives. >> >> "We're a bit more traditional," said Ingram. "ARGs have never been >> on the >> cards for us. We've run campaigns on PlayStation and we're >> confident in >> doing that, but not ARGs yet." >> >> ARGs utilise media across multiple platforms, including mobile, >> print, >> outdoor and online, with the player often able to influence the >> story. The >> first ARG was The Beast, used to promote the film Artificial >> Intelligence, >> with players taking part in a game that incorporated websites, email, >> telephone conversations. >> >> Sky won an nma Effectiveness Award in 2007 for its ARG for TV show >> 24. Last >> week the Red Cross launched its Traces of Hope ARG to raise >> awareness of >> civilians separated from their friends and families due to >> conflicts around >> the world. >> >> >> >> >> >> --- >> Mike Monello >> Partner, Campfire >> http://www.campfirenyc.com >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >> >> >> > > > > -- > Adrian Hon - mssv.net > Chief Creative at Six to Start - www.sixtostart.com > Founder of Let's Change the Game - www.letschangethegame.org > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From mikeyj.cox at gmail.com Thu Oct 9 11:50:20 2008 From: mikeyj.cox at gmail.com (Mike Cox) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 08:50:20 -0700 Subject: [arg_discuss] Copycat warning over alternative reality games In-Reply-To: References: <00ac01c92a20$19900a00$6700a8c0@Tricorder> <52a6f3110810090829i42240394x77251f0529cc0dd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <768b40560810090850i10e86d73k9254fe628545d55@mail.gmail.com> IECOMPIBDOs, the new ARGs. ;) http://www.operationsleepercell.com/ skype: mikeyjcox twitter: mikeyj On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 8:32 AM, Dan Hon wrote: > The article in the magazine is actually much longer - I'm trying to get > hold of a print copy at the moment. Suffice to say that we're trying really, > really hard to stop talking about "ARGs" - instead talking about > "traditional ARGs" and the new, more general, cross-platform > entertainment/game hotness. Which, really, is just Interesting and Engaging > Content, Optimised to the Medium and Platform It's Being Delivered On. > > -- > Dan Hon, CEO, Six to Start > m: +44 7870 600 828 > t: +44 33 3340 7490, f: +44 33 3340 7494 > > > > > > On 9 Oct 2008, at 16:29, Adrian Hon wrote: > > Yeah, not a lot in that article surprises me; just confirms that these >> guys don't really understand what's going on. I don't really have a >> lot to offer this discussion other than saying 'I agree'. Certainly >> it's a shame that ARGs are being pigeonholed in this way (not that >> 'ARG' as a term holds a lot of useful meaning). Most of the >> interesting work is being done outside of marketing, right now. >> >> Adrian >> >> On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 4:02 PM, Brian Clark >> wrote: >> >>> No one took "The Hand Grenade" Monello's bait, eh? No assist from me, >>> sir: >>> this was what had me foaming at the mouth 2 ARGfests ago. >>> >>> "ARG" isn't just "a marketing approach" ... it is one that isn't even >>> loved >>> by marketers. Attempts to reclaim in the word in non-ironic ways are >>> doomed >>> to failure, which is why very few of us as practitioners use that word >>> anymore. >>> >>> Upsides are broader than even what "The Hand Grenade" suggests, though, >>> as >>> his definition still doesn't provide a place for non-fiction in that >>> continuum. Or maybe what ever supplants ARG only cares about obvert >>> fiction, >>> but the same principles work without having to play make believe. >>> >>> But in reality, that news story is no stranger than "Marketers Still >>> Struggle To Understand This Strange Nightmare World They Inherited". >>> >>> :) >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] >>> On >>> Behalf Of Mike Monello >>> Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2008 10:52 AM >>> To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG >>> Subject: [arg_discuss] Copycat warning over alternative reality games >>> >>> Stories like this are why I always bristle against defining an ARG versus >>> living under a looser definition such as cross-media narrative or >>> similar. >>> >>> I still maintain we are (or should be) in a period of extreme >>> experimentation, the results of which will ultimately define what it is >>> and >>> what the sub-genres or styles are. When we codify a strict definition >>> around >>> ARG, we turn it into a series of tactics rather than a formal structure >>> under which an infinite variety of projects can live. When people use the >>> term "ARG," it should be the way people use "sitcom" or "soap-opera" -- >>> only >>> a specific form of cross media engagement. >>> >>> >>> >>> http://www.nma.co.uk/Articles/39895/Copycat+warning+over+alternative+reality >>> +games.html >>> >>> Copycat warning over alternative reality games >>> >>> Platform: Internet | Author: Luan Goldie | Source: nma.co.uk | >>> Published: >>> 08.10.08 >>> >>> Brands are being warned against rashly adopting alternate reality games >>> (ARGs) as their use as immersive brand experiences takes off. >>> >>> Cancer Research, Red Cross and Puffin (whose Young Bond ARG ends this >>> week), >>> are among the recent wave of brands to join the new trend for creating >>> ARGs, >>> which aim to engage consumers in connected online and offline activities. >>> >>> Early ARGs have been successful. McDonald's The Lost Ring game, >>> supporting >>> its sponsorship of the Beijing... >>> >>> ... Olympics, attracted more than 2.5m people in 100 countries, for >>> example. >>> However, the online industry has urged brands to be cautious about >>> adopting >>> them ad the next craze. >>> >>> Toby Feldman, marketing director for wrestling federation WWE, said the >>> organisation had looked at ARGs as a marketing technique but decided it >>> would not be an appropriate engagement tool. >>> >>> "It's down to the brand you have. One size never fits all, and if it's >>> not >>> relevant then it can very quickly become gimmicky," said Feldman. "If >>> you're >>> first to do something then it will work as it will stir interest and >>> publicity." >>> >>> "Everyone looks for innovative ways to get messages across but if too >>> many >>> others follow suit then it becomes run of mill and waters down its >>> effectiveness," he added. >>> >>> Likewise, Rei Inamoto, co-chief creative officer at AKQA's US office, the >>> agency behind McDonald's The Lost Ring, said, "I do feel that ARGs are a >>> bit >>> of a fad right now. If agencies and clients do it blindly just because >>> it's >>> the buzzword, it will just lead to copycat tactics." >>> >>> However, Alex Miller, head of Jam, i-level's social media department, >>> said >>> it was clear why ARGs are becoming popular among brands looking to create >>> strong brand connections. "If the buzzwords at the moment are audience >>> participation, interaction and empowerment then a branded ARG, if >>> executed >>> well, ticks all of those boxes," he said. >>> >>> Adrian Hon, chief creative officer at ARG specialist Six to Start, which >>> recently rolled out a cross-media competition for Penguin called We Tell >>> Stories, agreed that interest was growing. "It hasn't happened overnight, >>> but we're now getting brands coming to us all the time. Two years ago we >>> had >>> to explain what these games were for, but now it's very popular and we're >>> getting approached all the time." >>> >>> Other major brands, while not ruling out ARGs feel it's too early to make >>> the investment. Emma Jenkins, head of interactive marketing at Procter & >>> Gamble, said, "It's still very new and gaming is evolving so rapidly. >>> Anything we do has to stay in line with our consumers, so we wouldn't >>> rule >>> it out completely. We'd look at it, but not yet." >>> >>> Audi's UK PR manager David Ingram agreed. In 2005, Audi US launched ARG >>> The >>> Art of the Heist, which encouraged players to find a stolen Audi A3. The >>> game had more than half a million participants and created over 4,000 >>> test >>> drives. >>> >>> "We're a bit more traditional," said Ingram. "ARGs have never been on the >>> cards for us. We've run campaigns on PlayStation and we're confident in >>> doing that, but not ARGs yet." >>> >>> ARGs utilise media across multiple platforms, including mobile, print, >>> outdoor and online, with the player often able to influence the story. >>> The >>> first ARG was The Beast, used to promote the film Artificial >>> Intelligence, >>> with players taking part in a game that incorporated websites, email, >>> telephone conversations. >>> >>> Sky won an nma Effectiveness Award in 2007 for its ARG for TV show 24. >>> Last >>> week the Red Cross launched its Traces of Hope ARG to raise awareness of >>> civilians separated from their friends and families due to conflicts >>> around >>> the world. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> --- >>> Mike Monello >>> Partner, Campfire >>> http://www.campfirenyc.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ARG_Discuss mailing list >>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ARG_Discuss mailing list >>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Adrian Hon - mssv.net >> Chief Creative at Six to Start - www.sixtostart.com >> Founder of Let's Change the Game - www.letschangethegame.org >> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >> > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > From bclark at gmdstudios.com Thu Oct 9 13:25:49 2008 From: bclark at gmdstudios.com (Brian Clark) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 13:25:49 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE: Copycat warning over alternative reality games) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00d401c92a34$1344c5f0$6700a8c0@Tricorder> So what are the steps necessary to change the name of the SIG? And if we were to rename the common interest of the SIG in terms of game design, what is the correct label? It will never change without a new community-consensus label, and I don't have much to offer in way of solution. Experience design has always been our focus, and game is just one thing of many that people can experience together.) Crossmedia certainly isn't that: there are tons of existing organizations that service that space in great variety (like SIGGRAPH, BANFF and others.) It seems for IDGA, that umbrella needs to be more confined to gaming. -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Dan Hon Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 11:32 AM To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] Copycat warning over alternative reality games The article in the magazine is actually much longer - I'm trying to get hold of a print copy at the moment. Suffice to say that we're trying really, really hard to stop talking about "ARGs" - instead talking about "traditional ARGs" and the new, more general, cross- platform entertainment/game hotness. Which, really, is just Interesting and Engaging Content, Optimised to the Medium and Platform It's Being Delivered On. -- Dan Hon, CEO, Six to Start m: +44 7870 600 828 t: +44 33 3340 7490, f: +44 33 3340 7494 On 9 Oct 2008, at 16:29, Adrian Hon wrote: > Yeah, not a lot in that article surprises me; just confirms that these > guys don't really understand what's going on. I don't really have a > lot to offer this discussion other than saying 'I agree'. Certainly > it's a shame that ARGs are being pigeonholed in this way (not that > 'ARG' as a term holds a lot of useful meaning). Most of the > interesting work is being done outside of marketing, right now. > > Adrian > > On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 4:02 PM, Brian Clark > wrote: >> No one took "The Hand Grenade" Monello's bait, eh? No assist from >> me, sir: >> this was what had me foaming at the mouth 2 ARGfests ago. >> >> "ARG" isn't just "a marketing approach" ... it is one that isn't >> even loved >> by marketers. Attempts to reclaim in the word in non-ironic ways >> are doomed >> to failure, which is why very few of us as practitioners use that >> word >> anymore. >> >> Upsides are broader than even what "The Hand Grenade" suggests, >> though, as >> his definition still doesn't provide a place for non-fiction in that >> continuum. Or maybe what ever supplants ARG only cares about obvert >> fiction, >> but the same principles work without having to play make believe. >> >> But in reality, that news story is no stranger than "Marketers Still >> Struggle To Understand This Strange Nightmare World They Inherited". >> >> :) >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org >> ] On >> Behalf Of Mike Monello >> Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2008 10:52 AM >> To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG >> Subject: [arg_discuss] Copycat warning over alternative reality games >> >> Stories like this are why I always bristle against defining an ARG >> versus >> living under a looser definition such as cross-media narrative or >> similar. >> >> I still maintain we are (or should be) in a period of extreme >> experimentation, the results of which will ultimately define what >> it is and >> what the sub-genres or styles are. When we codify a strict >> definition around >> ARG, we turn it into a series of tactics rather than a formal >> structure >> under which an infinite variety of projects can live. When people >> use the >> term "ARG," it should be the way people use "sitcom" or "soap- >> opera" -- only >> a specific form of cross media engagement. >> >> >> http://www.nma.co.uk/Articles/39895/Copycat+warning+over+alternative+reality >> +games.html >> >> Copycat warning over alternative reality games >> >> Platform: Internet | Author: Luan Goldie | Source: nma.co.uk | >> Published: >> 08.10.08 >> >> Brands are being warned against rashly adopting alternate reality >> games >> (ARGs) as their use as immersive brand experiences takes off. >> >> Cancer Research, Red Cross and Puffin (whose Young Bond ARG ends >> this week), >> are among the recent wave of brands to join the new trend for >> creating ARGs, >> which aim to engage consumers in connected online and offline >> activities. >> >> Early ARGs have been successful. McDonald's The Lost Ring game, >> supporting >> its sponsorship of the Beijing... >> >> ... Olympics, attracted more than 2.5m people in 100 countries, for >> example. >> However, the online industry has urged brands to be cautious about >> adopting >> them ad the next craze. >> >> Toby Feldman, marketing director for wrestling federation WWE, said >> the >> organisation had looked at ARGs as a marketing technique but >> decided it >> would not be an appropriate engagement tool. >> >> "It's down to the brand you have. One size never fits all, and if >> it's not >> relevant then it can very quickly become gimmicky," said Feldman. >> "If you're >> first to do something then it will work as it will stir interest and >> publicity." >> >> "Everyone looks for innovative ways to get messages across but if >> too many >> others follow suit then it becomes run of mill and waters down its >> effectiveness," he added. >> >> Likewise, Rei Inamoto, co-chief creative officer at AKQA's US >> office, the >> agency behind McDonald's The Lost Ring, said, "I do feel that ARGs >> are a bit >> of a fad right now. If agencies and clients do it blindly just >> because it's >> the buzzword, it will just lead to copycat tactics." >> >> However, Alex Miller, head of Jam, i-level's social media >> department, said >> it was clear why ARGs are becoming popular among brands looking to >> create >> strong brand connections. "If the buzzwords at the moment are >> audience >> participation, interaction and empowerment then a branded ARG, if >> executed >> well, ticks all of those boxes," he said. >> >> Adrian Hon, chief creative officer at ARG specialist Six to Start, >> which >> recently rolled out a cross-media competition for Penguin called We >> Tell >> Stories, agreed that interest was growing. "It hasn't happened >> overnight, >> but we're now getting brands coming to us all the time. Two years >> ago we had >> to explain what these games were for, but now it's very popular and >> we're >> getting approached all the time." >> >> Other major brands, while not ruling out ARGs feel it's too early >> to make >> the investment. Emma Jenkins, head of interactive marketing at >> Procter & >> Gamble, said, "It's still very new and gaming is evolving so rapidly. >> Anything we do has to stay in line with our consumers, so we >> wouldn't rule >> it out completely. We'd look at it, but not yet." >> >> Audi's UK PR manager David Ingram agreed. In 2005, Audi US launched >> ARG The >> Art of the Heist, which encouraged players to find a stolen Audi >> A3. The >> game had more than half a million participants and created over >> 4,000 test >> drives. >> >> "We're a bit more traditional," said Ingram. "ARGs have never been >> on the >> cards for us. We've run campaigns on PlayStation and we're >> confident in >> doing that, but not ARGs yet." >> >> ARGs utilise media across multiple platforms, including mobile, >> print, >> outdoor and online, with the player often able to influence the >> story. The >> first ARG was The Beast, used to promote the film Artificial >> Intelligence, >> with players taking part in a game that incorporated websites, email, >> telephone conversations. >> >> Sky won an nma Effectiveness Award in 2007 for its ARG for TV show >> 24. Last >> week the Red Cross launched its Traces of Hope ARG to raise >> awareness of >> civilians separated from their friends and families due to >> conflicts around >> the world. >> >> >> >> >> >> --- >> Mike Monello >> Partner, Campfire >> http://www.campfirenyc.com >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >> >> >> > > > > -- > Adrian Hon - mssv.net > Chief Creative at Six to Start - www.sixtostart.com > Founder of Let's Change the Game - www.letschangethegame.org > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From dan at sixtostart.com Thu Oct 9 13:27:21 2008 From: dan at sixtostart.com (Dan Hon) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 18:27:21 +0100 Subject: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE: Copycat warning over alternative reality games) In-Reply-To: <00d401c92a34$1344c5f0$6700a8c0@Tricorder> References: <00d401c92a34$1344c5f0$6700a8c0@Tricorder> Message-ID: I don't know if there is a new name. It's just experience, entertainment, storytelling. The fact that we're using all the available media in an appropriate way, rather than being hamstrung and saying "WE MUST CREATE TV-LIKE VIDEO FOR ONLINE" is what the big change is, I think, and "ARG" really, really doesn't describe that. -- Dan Hon, CEO, Six to Start m: +44 7870 600 828 t: +44 33 3340 7490, f: +44 33 3340 7494 On 9 Oct 2008, at 18:25, Brian Clark wrote: > So what are the steps necessary to change the name of the SIG? And > if we > were to rename the common interest of the SIG in terms of game > design, what > is the correct label? > > It will never change without a new community-consensus label, and I > don't > have much to offer in way of solution. Experience design has always > been our > focus, and game is just one thing of many that people can experience > together.) > > Crossmedia certainly isn't that: there are tons of existing > organizations > that service that space in great variety (like SIGGRAPH, BANFF and > others.) > It seems for IDGA, that umbrella needs to be more confined to gaming. > > -----Original Message----- > From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org > ] On > Behalf Of Dan Hon > Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 11:32 AM > To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG > Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] Copycat warning over alternative reality > games > > The article in the magazine is actually much longer - I'm trying to > get hold of a print copy at the moment. Suffice to say that we're > trying really, really hard to stop talking about "ARGs" - instead > talking about "traditional ARGs" and the new, more general, cross- > platform entertainment/game hotness. Which, really, is just > Interesting and Engaging Content, Optimised to the Medium and Platform > It's Being Delivered On. > > -- > Dan Hon, CEO, Six to Start > m: +44 7870 600 828 > t: +44 33 3340 7490, f: +44 33 3340 7494 > > > > > On 9 Oct 2008, at 16:29, Adrian Hon wrote: > >> Yeah, not a lot in that article surprises me; just confirms that >> these >> guys don't really understand what's going on. I don't really have a >> lot to offer this discussion other than saying 'I agree'. Certainly >> it's a shame that ARGs are being pigeonholed in this way (not that >> 'ARG' as a term holds a lot of useful meaning). Most of the >> interesting work is being done outside of marketing, right now. >> >> Adrian >> >> On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 4:02 PM, Brian Clark >> wrote: >>> No one took "The Hand Grenade" Monello's bait, eh? No assist from >>> me, sir: >>> this was what had me foaming at the mouth 2 ARGfests ago. >>> >>> "ARG" isn't just "a marketing approach" ... it is one that isn't >>> even loved >>> by marketers. Attempts to reclaim in the word in non-ironic ways >>> are doomed >>> to failure, which is why very few of us as practitioners use that >>> word >>> anymore. >>> >>> Upsides are broader than even what "The Hand Grenade" suggests, >>> though, as >>> his definition still doesn't provide a place for non-fiction in that >>> continuum. Or maybe what ever supplants ARG only cares about obvert >>> fiction, >>> but the same principles work without having to play make believe. >>> >>> But in reality, that news story is no stranger than "Marketers Still >>> Struggle To Understand This Strange Nightmare World They Inherited". >>> >>> :) >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org >>> ] On >>> Behalf Of Mike Monello >>> Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2008 10:52 AM >>> To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG >>> Subject: [arg_discuss] Copycat warning over alternative reality >>> games >>> >>> Stories like this are why I always bristle against defining an ARG >>> versus >>> living under a looser definition such as cross-media narrative or >>> similar. >>> >>> I still maintain we are (or should be) in a period of extreme >>> experimentation, the results of which will ultimately define what >>> it is and >>> what the sub-genres or styles are. When we codify a strict >>> definition around >>> ARG, we turn it into a series of tactics rather than a formal >>> structure >>> under which an infinite variety of projects can live. When people >>> use the >>> term "ARG," it should be the way people use "sitcom" or "soap- >>> opera" -- only >>> a specific form of cross media engagement. >>> >>> >>> > http://www.nma.co.uk/Articles/39895/Copycat+warning+over+alternative+reality >>> +games.html >>> >>> Copycat warning over alternative reality games >>> >>> Platform: Internet | Author: Luan Goldie | Source: nma.co.uk | >>> Published: >>> 08.10.08 >>> >>> Brands are being warned against rashly adopting alternate reality >>> games >>> (ARGs) as their use as immersive brand experiences takes off. >>> >>> Cancer Research, Red Cross and Puffin (whose Young Bond ARG ends >>> this week), >>> are among the recent wave of brands to join the new trend for >>> creating ARGs, >>> which aim to engage consumers in connected online and offline >>> activities. >>> >>> Early ARGs have been successful. McDonald's The Lost Ring game, >>> supporting >>> its sponsorship of the Beijing... >>> >>> ... Olympics, attracted more than 2.5m people in 100 countries, for >>> example. >>> However, the online industry has urged brands to be cautious about >>> adopting >>> them ad the next craze. >>> >>> Toby Feldman, marketing director for wrestling federation WWE, said >>> the >>> organisation had looked at ARGs as a marketing technique but >>> decided it >>> would not be an appropriate engagement tool. >>> >>> "It's down to the brand you have. One size never fits all, and if >>> it's not >>> relevant then it can very quickly become gimmicky," said Feldman. >>> "If you're >>> first to do something then it will work as it will stir interest and >>> publicity." >>> >>> "Everyone looks for innovative ways to get messages across but if >>> too many >>> others follow suit then it becomes run of mill and waters down its >>> effectiveness," he added. >>> >>> Likewise, Rei Inamoto, co-chief creative officer at AKQA's US >>> office, the >>> agency behind McDonald's The Lost Ring, said, "I do feel that ARGs >>> are a bit >>> of a fad right now. If agencies and clients do it blindly just >>> because it's >>> the buzzword, it will just lead to copycat tactics." >>> >>> However, Alex Miller, head of Jam, i-level's social media >>> department, said >>> it was clear why ARGs are becoming popular among brands looking to >>> create >>> strong brand connections. "If the buzzwords at the moment are >>> audience >>> participation, interaction and empowerment then a branded ARG, if >>> executed >>> well, ticks all of those boxes," he said. >>> >>> Adrian Hon, chief creative officer at ARG specialist Six to Start, >>> which >>> recently rolled out a cross-media competition for Penguin called We >>> Tell >>> Stories, agreed that interest was growing. "It hasn't happened >>> overnight, >>> but we're now getting brands coming to us all the time. Two years >>> ago we had >>> to explain what these games were for, but now it's very popular and >>> we're >>> getting approached all the time." >>> >>> Other major brands, while not ruling out ARGs feel it's too early >>> to make >>> the investment. Emma Jenkins, head of interactive marketing at >>> Procter & >>> Gamble, said, "It's still very new and gaming is evolving so >>> rapidly. >>> Anything we do has to stay in line with our consumers, so we >>> wouldn't rule >>> it out completely. We'd look at it, but not yet." >>> >>> Audi's UK PR manager David Ingram agreed. In 2005, Audi US launched >>> ARG The >>> Art of the Heist, which encouraged players to find a stolen Audi >>> A3. The >>> game had more than half a million participants and created over >>> 4,000 test >>> drives. >>> >>> "We're a bit more traditional," said Ingram. "ARGs have never been >>> on the >>> cards for us. We've run campaigns on PlayStation and we're >>> confident in >>> doing that, but not ARGs yet." >>> >>> ARGs utilise media across multiple platforms, including mobile, >>> print, >>> outdoor and online, with the player often able to influence the >>> story. The >>> first ARG was The Beast, used to promote the film Artificial >>> Intelligence, >>> with players taking part in a game that incorporated websites, >>> email, >>> telephone conversations. >>> >>> Sky won an nma Effectiveness Award in 2007 for its ARG for TV show >>> 24. Last >>> week the Red Cross launched its Traces of Hope ARG to raise >>> awareness of >>> civilians separated from their friends and families due to >>> conflicts around >>> the world. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> --- >>> Mike Monello >>> Partner, Campfire >>> http://www.campfirenyc.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ARG_Discuss mailing list >>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ARG_Discuss mailing list >>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Adrian Hon - mssv.net >> Chief Creative at Six to Start - www.sixtostart.com >> Founder of Let's Change the Game - www.letschangethegame.org >> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From mj_williams at mac.com Thu Oct 9 13:30:59 2008 From: mj_williams at mac.com (mj williams) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 18:30:59 +0100 Subject: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE: Copycat warning over alternative reality games) In-Reply-To: <00d401c92a34$1344c5f0$6700a8c0@Tricorder> References: <00d401c92a34$1344c5f0$6700a8c0@Tricorder> Message-ID: <5F5C0864-9D47-41B1-86CB-036CECEE9D4B@mac.com> Arg, Schmarg. Pervasive Games are the new black. Also: this is a great idea: http://www.230milesoflove.com/ (it is a bit old though, so apologies if posted previously) -- mj williams | www.bushofgoats.com/bookofworks | mj_williams at mac.com | +44(0)7971 004821 On 9 Oct 2008, at 18:25, Brian Clark wrote: So what are the steps necessary to change the name of the SIG? And if we were to rename the common interest of the SIG in terms of game design, what is the correct label? It will never change without a new community-consensus label, and I don't have much to offer in way of solution. Experience design has always been our focus, and game is just one thing of many that people can experience together.) Crossmedia certainly isn't that: there are tons of existing organizations that service that space in great variety (like SIGGRAPH, BANFF and others.) It seems for IDGA, that umbrella needs to be more confined to gaming. -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss- bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Dan Hon Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 11:32 AM To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] Copycat warning over alternative reality games The article in the magazine is actually much longer - I'm trying to get hold of a print copy at the moment. Suffice to say that we're trying really, really hard to stop talking about "ARGs" - instead talking about "traditional ARGs" and the new, more general, cross- platform entertainment/game hotness. Which, really, is just Interesting and Engaging Content, Optimised to the Medium and Platform It's Being Delivered On. -- Dan Hon, CEO, Six to Start m: +44 7870 600 828 t: +44 33 3340 7490, f: +44 33 3340 7494 On 9 Oct 2008, at 16:29, Adrian Hon wrote: > Yeah, not a lot in that article surprises me; just confirms that these > guys don't really understand what's going on. I don't really have a > lot to offer this discussion other than saying 'I agree'. Certainly > it's a shame that ARGs are being pigeonholed in this way (not that > 'ARG' as a term holds a lot of useful meaning). Most of the > interesting work is being done outside of marketing, right now. > > Adrian > > On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 4:02 PM, Brian Clark > wrote: >> No one took "The Hand Grenade" Monello's bait, eh? No assist from >> me, sir: >> this was what had me foaming at the mouth 2 ARGfests ago. >> >> "ARG" isn't just "a marketing approach" ... it is one that isn't >> even loved >> by marketers. Attempts to reclaim in the word in non-ironic ways >> are doomed >> to failure, which is why very few of us as practitioners use that >> word >> anymore. >> >> Upsides are broader than even what "The Hand Grenade" suggests, >> though, as >> his definition still doesn't provide a place for non-fiction in that >> continuum. Or maybe what ever supplants ARG only cares about obvert >> fiction, >> but the same principles work without having to play make believe. >> >> But in reality, that news story is no stranger than "Marketers Still >> Struggle To Understand This Strange Nightmare World They Inherited". >> >> :) >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org >> ] On >> Behalf Of Mike Monello >> Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2008 10:52 AM >> To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG >> Subject: [arg_discuss] Copycat warning over alternative reality games >> >> Stories like this are why I always bristle against defining an ARG >> versus >> living under a looser definition such as cross-media narrative or >> similar. >> >> I still maintain we are (or should be) in a period of extreme >> experimentation, the results of which will ultimately define what >> it is and >> what the sub-genres or styles are. When we codify a strict >> definition around >> ARG, we turn it into a series of tactics rather than a formal >> structure >> under which an infinite variety of projects can live. When people >> use the >> term "ARG," it should be the way people use "sitcom" or "soap- >> opera" -- only >> a specific form of cross media engagement. >> >> >> http://www.nma.co.uk/Articles/39895/Copycat+warning+over+alternative+reality >> +games.html >> >> Copycat warning over alternative reality games >> >> Platform: Internet | Author: Luan Goldie | Source: nma.co.uk | >> Published: >> 08.10.08 >> >> Brands are being warned against rashly adopting alternate reality >> games >> (ARGs) as their use as immersive brand experiences takes off. >> >> Cancer Research, Red Cross and Puffin (whose Young Bond ARG ends >> this week), >> are among the recent wave of brands to join the new trend for >> creating ARGs, >> which aim to engage consumers in connected online and offline >> activities. >> >> Early ARGs have been successful. McDonald's The Lost Ring game, >> supporting >> its sponsorship of the Beijing... >> >> ... Olympics, attracted more than 2.5m people in 100 countries, for >> example. >> However, the online industry has urged brands to be cautious about >> adopting >> them ad the next craze. >> >> Toby Feldman, marketing director for wrestling federation WWE, said >> the >> organisation had looked at ARGs as a marketing technique but >> decided it >> would not be an appropriate engagement tool. >> >> "It's down to the brand you have. One size never fits all, and if >> it's not >> relevant then it can very quickly become gimmicky," said Feldman. >> "If you're >> first to do something then it will work as it will stir interest and >> publicity." >> >> "Everyone looks for innovative ways to get messages across but if >> too many >> others follow suit then it becomes run of mill and waters down its >> effectiveness," he added. >> >> Likewise, Rei Inamoto, co-chief creative officer at AKQA's US >> office, the >> agency behind McDonald's The Lost Ring, said, "I do feel that ARGs >> are a bit >> of a fad right now. If agencies and clients do it blindly just >> because it's >> the buzzword, it will just lead to copycat tactics." >> >> However, Alex Miller, head of Jam, i-level's social media >> department, said >> it was clear why ARGs are becoming popular among brands looking to >> create >> strong brand connections. "If the buzzwords at the moment are >> audience >> participation, interaction and empowerment then a branded ARG, if >> executed >> well, ticks all of those boxes," he said. >> >> Adrian Hon, chief creative officer at ARG specialist Six to Start, >> which >> recently rolled out a cross-media competition for Penguin called We >> Tell >> Stories, agreed that interest was growing. "It hasn't happened >> overnight, >> but we're now getting brands coming to us all the time. Two years >> ago we had >> to explain what these games were for, but now it's very popular and >> we're >> getting approached all the time." >> >> Other major brands, while not ruling out ARGs feel it's too early >> to make >> the investment. Emma Jenkins, head of interactive marketing at >> Procter & >> Gamble, said, "It's still very new and gaming is evolving so rapidly. >> Anything we do has to stay in line with our consumers, so we >> wouldn't rule >> it out completely. We'd look at it, but not yet." >> >> Audi's UK PR manager David Ingram agreed. In 2005, Audi US launched >> ARG The >> Art of the Heist, which encouraged players to find a stolen Audi >> A3. The >> game had more than half a million participants and created over >> 4,000 test >> drives. >> >> "We're a bit more traditional," said Ingram. "ARGs have never been >> on the >> cards for us. We've run campaigns on PlayStation and we're >> confident in >> doing that, but not ARGs yet." >> >> ARGs utilise media across multiple platforms, including mobile, >> print, >> outdoor and online, with the player often able to influence the >> story. The >> first ARG was The Beast, used to promote the film Artificial >> Intelligence, >> with players taking part in a game that incorporated websites, email, >> telephone conversations. >> >> Sky won an nma Effectiveness Award in 2007 for its ARG for TV show >> 24. Last >> week the Red Cross launched its Traces of Hope ARG to raise >> awareness of >> civilians separated from their friends and families due to >> conflicts around >> the world. >> >> >> >> >> >> --- >> Mike Monello >> Partner, Campfire >> http://www.campfirenyc.com >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >> >> >> > > > > -- > Adrian Hon - mssv.net > Chief Creative at Six to Start - www.sixtostart.com > Founder of Let's Change the Game - www.letschangethegame.org > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From bclark at gmdstudios.com Thu Oct 9 13:31:58 2008 From: bclark at gmdstudios.com (Brian Clark) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 13:31:58 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE: Copycat warning overalternative reality games) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <00da01c92a34$eeebda30$6700a8c0@Tricorder> > I don't know if there is a new name. It's just > experience, entertainment, storytelling. Challenging you: none of those things are new. ARG-SIG abolished? > "WE MUST CREATE TV-LIKE VIDEO FOR ONLINE" is what > the big change is. Maybe for some, others of us have been grappling with that line of request for years (so it doesn't seem to new to me either: less "new" than ARG, in fact.) But again, not an IDGA SIG, right? Abolished! -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Dan Hon Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 1:27 PM To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE: Copycat warning overalternative reality games) I don't know if there is a new name. It's just experience, entertainment, storytelling. The fact that we're using all the available media in an appropriate way, rather than being hamstrung and saying "WE MUST CREATE TV-LIKE VIDEO FOR ONLINE" is what the big change is, I think, and "ARG" really, really doesn't describe that. -- Dan Hon, CEO, Six to Start m: +44 7870 600 828 t: +44 33 3340 7490, f: +44 33 3340 7494 On 9 Oct 2008, at 18:25, Brian Clark wrote: > So what are the steps necessary to change the name of the SIG? And > if we > were to rename the common interest of the SIG in terms of game > design, what > is the correct label? > > It will never change without a new community-consensus label, and I > don't > have much to offer in way of solution. Experience design has always > been our > focus, and game is just one thing of many that people can experience > together.) > > Crossmedia certainly isn't that: there are tons of existing > organizations > that service that space in great variety (like SIGGRAPH, BANFF and > others.) > It seems for IDGA, that umbrella needs to be more confined to gaming. > > -----Original Message----- > From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org > ] On > Behalf Of Dan Hon > Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 11:32 AM > To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG > Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] Copycat warning over alternative reality > games > > The article in the magazine is actually much longer - I'm trying to > get hold of a print copy at the moment. Suffice to say that we're > trying really, really hard to stop talking about "ARGs" - instead > talking about "traditional ARGs" and the new, more general, cross- > platform entertainment/game hotness. Which, really, is just > Interesting and Engaging Content, Optimised to the Medium and Platform > It's Being Delivered On. > > -- > Dan Hon, CEO, Six to Start > m: +44 7870 600 828 > t: +44 33 3340 7490, f: +44 33 3340 7494 > > > > > On 9 Oct 2008, at 16:29, Adrian Hon wrote: > >> Yeah, not a lot in that article surprises me; just confirms that >> these >> guys don't really understand what's going on. I don't really have a >> lot to offer this discussion other than saying 'I agree'. Certainly >> it's a shame that ARGs are being pigeonholed in this way (not that >> 'ARG' as a term holds a lot of useful meaning). Most of the >> interesting work is being done outside of marketing, right now. >> >> Adrian >> >> On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 4:02 PM, Brian Clark >> wrote: >>> No one took "The Hand Grenade" Monello's bait, eh? No assist from >>> me, sir: >>> this was what had me foaming at the mouth 2 ARGfests ago. >>> >>> "ARG" isn't just "a marketing approach" ... it is one that isn't >>> even loved >>> by marketers. Attempts to reclaim in the word in non-ironic ways >>> are doomed >>> to failure, which is why very few of us as practitioners use that >>> word >>> anymore. >>> >>> Upsides are broader than even what "The Hand Grenade" suggests, >>> though, as >>> his definition still doesn't provide a place for non-fiction in that >>> continuum. Or maybe what ever supplants ARG only cares about obvert >>> fiction, >>> but the same principles work without having to play make believe. >>> >>> But in reality, that news story is no stranger than "Marketers Still >>> Struggle To Understand This Strange Nightmare World They Inherited". >>> >>> :) >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org >>> ] On >>> Behalf Of Mike Monello >>> Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2008 10:52 AM >>> To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG >>> Subject: [arg_discuss] Copycat warning over alternative reality >>> games >>> >>> Stories like this are why I always bristle against defining an ARG >>> versus >>> living under a looser definition such as cross-media narrative or >>> similar. >>> >>> I still maintain we are (or should be) in a period of extreme >>> experimentation, the results of which will ultimately define what >>> it is and >>> what the sub-genres or styles are. When we codify a strict >>> definition around >>> ARG, we turn it into a series of tactics rather than a formal >>> structure >>> under which an infinite variety of projects can live. When people >>> use the >>> term "ARG," it should be the way people use "sitcom" or "soap- >>> opera" -- only >>> a specific form of cross media engagement. >>> >>> >>> > http://www.nma.co.uk/Articles/39895/Copycat+warning+over+alternative+reality >>> +games.html >>> >>> Copycat warning over alternative reality games >>> >>> Platform: Internet | Author: Luan Goldie | Source: nma.co.uk | >>> Published: >>> 08.10.08 >>> >>> Brands are being warned against rashly adopting alternate reality >>> games >>> (ARGs) as their use as immersive brand experiences takes off. >>> >>> Cancer Research, Red Cross and Puffin (whose Young Bond ARG ends >>> this week), >>> are among the recent wave of brands to join the new trend for >>> creating ARGs, >>> which aim to engage consumers in connected online and offline >>> activities. >>> >>> Early ARGs have been successful. McDonald's The Lost Ring game, >>> supporting >>> its sponsorship of the Beijing... >>> >>> ... Olympics, attracted more than 2.5m people in 100 countries, for >>> example. >>> However, the online industry has urged brands to be cautious about >>> adopting >>> them ad the next craze. >>> >>> Toby Feldman, marketing director for wrestling federation WWE, said >>> the >>> organisation had looked at ARGs as a marketing technique but >>> decided it >>> would not be an appropriate engagement tool. >>> >>> "It's down to the brand you have. One size never fits all, and if >>> it's not >>> relevant then it can very quickly become gimmicky," said Feldman. >>> "If you're >>> first to do something then it will work as it will stir interest and >>> publicity." >>> >>> "Everyone looks for innovative ways to get messages across but if >>> too many >>> others follow suit then it becomes run of mill and waters down its >>> effectiveness," he added. >>> >>> Likewise, Rei Inamoto, co-chief creative officer at AKQA's US >>> office, the >>> agency behind McDonald's The Lost Ring, said, "I do feel that ARGs >>> are a bit >>> of a fad right now. If agencies and clients do it blindly just >>> because it's >>> the buzzword, it will just lead to copycat tactics." >>> >>> However, Alex Miller, head of Jam, i-level's social media >>> department, said >>> it was clear why ARGs are becoming popular among brands looking to >>> create >>> strong brand connections. "If the buzzwords at the moment are >>> audience >>> participation, interaction and empowerment then a branded ARG, if >>> executed >>> well, ticks all of those boxes," he said. >>> >>> Adrian Hon, chief creative officer at ARG specialist Six to Start, >>> which >>> recently rolled out a cross-media competition for Penguin called We >>> Tell >>> Stories, agreed that interest was growing. "It hasn't happened >>> overnight, >>> but we're now getting brands coming to us all the time. Two years >>> ago we had >>> to explain what these games were for, but now it's very popular and >>> we're >>> getting approached all the time." >>> >>> Other major brands, while not ruling out ARGs feel it's too early >>> to make >>> the investment. Emma Jenkins, head of interactive marketing at >>> Procter & >>> Gamble, said, "It's still very new and gaming is evolving so >>> rapidly. >>> Anything we do has to stay in line with our consumers, so we >>> wouldn't rule >>> it out completely. We'd look at it, but not yet." >>> >>> Audi's UK PR manager David Ingram agreed. In 2005, Audi US launched >>> ARG The >>> Art of the Heist, which encouraged players to find a stolen Audi >>> A3. The >>> game had more than half a million participants and created over >>> 4,000 test >>> drives. >>> >>> "We're a bit more traditional," said Ingram. "ARGs have never been >>> on the >>> cards for us. We've run campaigns on PlayStation and we're >>> confident in >>> doing that, but not ARGs yet." >>> >>> ARGs utilise media across multiple platforms, including mobile, >>> print, >>> outdoor and online, with the player often able to influence the >>> story. The >>> first ARG was The Beast, used to promote the film Artificial >>> Intelligence, >>> with players taking part in a game that incorporated websites, >>> email, >>> telephone conversations. >>> >>> Sky won an nma Effectiveness Award in 2007 for its ARG for TV show >>> 24. Last >>> week the Red Cross launched its Traces of Hope ARG to raise >>> awareness of >>> civilians separated from their friends and families due to >>> conflicts around >>> the world. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> --- >>> Mike Monello >>> Partner, Campfire >>> http://www.campfirenyc.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ARG_Discuss mailing list >>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ARG_Discuss mailing list >>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Adrian Hon - mssv.net >> Chief Creative at Six to Start - www.sixtostart.com >> Founder of Let's Change the Game - www.letschangethegame.org >> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From scpeters at gmail.com Thu Oct 9 14:04:01 2008 From: scpeters at gmail.com (Steve Peters) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 11:04:01 -0700 Subject: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE: Copycat warning overalternative reality games) In-Reply-To: <00da01c92a34$eeebda30$6700a8c0@Tricorder> References: <00da01c92a34$eeebda30$6700a8c0@Tricorder> Message-ID: <1ddaf7680810091104i52ab13f2m80d27bff3bcd500d@mail.gmail.com> At this point, we've been referring to them as Participatory Entertainment Experiences... On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 10:31 AM, Brian Clark wrote: > > I don't know if there is a new name. It's just > > experience, entertainment, storytelling. > > Challenging you: none of those things are new. ARG-SIG abolished? > > > "WE MUST CREATE TV-LIKE VIDEO FOR ONLINE" is what > > the big change is. > > Maybe for some, others of us have been grappling with that line of request > for years (so it doesn't seem to new to me either: less "new" than ARG, in > fact.) > > But again, not an IDGA SIG, right? Abolished! > > -----Original Message----- > From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] > On > Behalf Of Dan Hon > Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 1:27 PM > To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG > Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE: Copycat warning > overalternative reality games) > > I don't know if there is a new name. It's just experience, > entertainment, storytelling. > > The fact that we're using all the available media in an appropriate > way, rather than being hamstrung and saying "WE MUST CREATE TV-LIKE > VIDEO FOR ONLINE" is what the big change is, I think, and "ARG" > really, really doesn't describe that. > > > -- > Dan Hon, CEO, Six to Start > m: +44 7870 600 828 > t: +44 33 3340 7490, f: +44 33 3340 7494 > > > > > On 9 Oct 2008, at 18:25, Brian Clark wrote: > > > So what are the steps necessary to change the name of the SIG? And > > if we > > were to rename the common interest of the SIG in terms of game > > design, what > > is the correct label? > > > > It will never change without a new community-consensus label, and I > > don't > > have much to offer in way of solution. Experience design has always > > been our > > focus, and game is just one thing of many that people can experience > > together.) > > > > Crossmedia certainly isn't that: there are tons of existing > > organizations > > that service that space in great variety (like SIGGRAPH, BANFF and > > others.) > > It seems for IDGA, that umbrella needs to be more confined to gaming. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org > > ] On > > Behalf Of Dan Hon > > Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 11:32 AM > > To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG > > Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] Copycat warning over alternative reality > > games > > > > The article in the magazine is actually much longer - I'm trying to > > get hold of a print copy at the moment. Suffice to say that we're > > trying really, really hard to stop talking about "ARGs" - instead > > talking about "traditional ARGs" and the new, more general, cross- > > platform entertainment/game hotness. Which, really, is just > > Interesting and Engaging Content, Optimised to the Medium and Platform > > It's Being Delivered On. > > > > -- > > Dan Hon, CEO, Six to Start > > m: +44 7870 600 828 > > t: +44 33 3340 7490, f: +44 33 3340 7494 > > > > > > > > > > On 9 Oct 2008, at 16:29, Adrian Hon wrote: > > > >> Yeah, not a lot in that article surprises me; just confirms that > >> these > >> guys don't really understand what's going on. I don't really have a > >> lot to offer this discussion other than saying 'I agree'. Certainly > >> it's a shame that ARGs are being pigeonholed in this way (not that > >> 'ARG' as a term holds a lot of useful meaning). Most of the > >> interesting work is being done outside of marketing, right now. > >> > >> Adrian > >> > >> On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 4:02 PM, Brian Clark > >> wrote: > >>> No one took "The Hand Grenade" Monello's bait, eh? No assist from > >>> me, sir: > >>> this was what had me foaming at the mouth 2 ARGfests ago. > >>> > >>> "ARG" isn't just "a marketing approach" ... it is one that isn't > >>> even loved > >>> by marketers. Attempts to reclaim in the word in non-ironic ways > >>> are doomed > >>> to failure, which is why very few of us as practitioners use that > >>> word > >>> anymore. > >>> > >>> Upsides are broader than even what "The Hand Grenade" suggests, > >>> though, as > >>> his definition still doesn't provide a place for non-fiction in that > >>> continuum. Or maybe what ever supplants ARG only cares about obvert > >>> fiction, > >>> but the same principles work without having to play make believe. > >>> > >>> But in reality, that news story is no stranger than "Marketers Still > >>> Struggle To Understand This Strange Nightmare World They Inherited". > >>> > >>> :) > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto: > arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org > >>> ] On > >>> Behalf Of Mike Monello > >>> Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2008 10:52 AM > >>> To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG > >>> Subject: [arg_discuss] Copycat warning over alternative reality > >>> games > >>> > >>> Stories like this are why I always bristle against defining an ARG > >>> versus > >>> living under a looser definition such as cross-media narrative or > >>> similar. > >>> > >>> I still maintain we are (or should be) in a period of extreme > >>> experimentation, the results of which will ultimately define what > >>> it is and > >>> what the sub-genres or styles are. When we codify a strict > >>> definition around > >>> ARG, we turn it into a series of tactics rather than a formal > >>> structure > >>> under which an infinite variety of projects can live. When people > >>> use the > >>> term "ARG," it should be the way people use "sitcom" or "soap- > >>> opera" -- only > >>> a specific form of cross media engagement. > >>> > >>> > >>> > > > > http://www.nma.co.uk/Articles/39895/Copycat+warning+over+alternative+reality > >>> +games.html > >>> > >>> Copycat warning over alternative reality games > >>> > >>> Platform: Internet | Author: Luan Goldie | Source: nma.co.uk | > >>> Published: > >>> 08.10.08 > >>> > >>> Brands are being warned against rashly adopting alternate reality > >>> games > >>> (ARGs) as their use as immersive brand experiences takes off. > >>> > >>> Cancer Research, Red Cross and Puffin (whose Young Bond ARG ends > >>> this week), > >>> are among the recent wave of brands to join the new trend for > >>> creating ARGs, > >>> which aim to engage consumers in connected online and offline > >>> activities. > >>> > >>> Early ARGs have been successful. McDonald's The Lost Ring game, > >>> supporting > >>> its sponsorship of the Beijing... > >>> > >>> ... Olympics, attracted more than 2.5m people in 100 countries, for > >>> example. > >>> However, the online industry has urged brands to be cautious about > >>> adopting > >>> them ad the next craze. > >>> > >>> Toby Feldman, marketing director for wrestling federation WWE, said > >>> the > >>> organisation had looked at ARGs as a marketing technique but > >>> decided it > >>> would not be an appropriate engagement tool. > >>> > >>> "It's down to the brand you have. One size never fits all, and if > >>> it's not > >>> relevant then it can very quickly become gimmicky," said Feldman. > >>> "If you're > >>> first to do something then it will work as it will stir interest and > >>> publicity." > >>> > >>> "Everyone looks for innovative ways to get messages across but if > >>> too many > >>> others follow suit then it becomes run of mill and waters down its > >>> effectiveness," he added. > >>> > >>> Likewise, Rei Inamoto, co-chief creative officer at AKQA's US > >>> office, the > >>> agency behind McDonald's The Lost Ring, said, "I do feel that ARGs > >>> are a bit > >>> of a fad right now. If agencies and clients do it blindly just > >>> because it's > >>> the buzzword, it will just lead to copycat tactics." > >>> > >>> However, Alex Miller, head of Jam, i-level's social media > >>> department, said > >>> it was clear why ARGs are becoming popular among brands looking to > >>> create > >>> strong brand connections. "If the buzzwords at the moment are > >>> audience > >>> participation, interaction and empowerment then a branded ARG, if > >>> executed > >>> well, ticks all of those boxes," he said. > >>> > >>> Adrian Hon, chief creative officer at ARG specialist Six to Start, > >>> which > >>> recently rolled out a cross-media competition for Penguin called We > >>> Tell > >>> Stories, agreed that interest was growing. "It hasn't happened > >>> overnight, > >>> but we're now getting brands coming to us all the time. Two years > >>> ago we had > >>> to explain what these games were for, but now it's very popular and > >>> we're > >>> getting approached all the time." > >>> > >>> Other major brands, while not ruling out ARGs feel it's too early > >>> to make > >>> the investment. Emma Jenkins, head of interactive marketing at > >>> Procter & > >>> Gamble, said, "It's still very new and gaming is evolving so > >>> rapidly. > >>> Anything we do has to stay in line with our consumers, so we > >>> wouldn't rule > >>> it out completely. We'd look at it, but not yet." > >>> > >>> Audi's UK PR manager David Ingram agreed. In 2005, Audi US launched > >>> ARG The > >>> Art of the Heist, which encouraged players to find a stolen Audi > >>> A3. The > >>> game had more than half a million participants and created over > >>> 4,000 test > >>> drives. > >>> > >>> "We're a bit more traditional," said Ingram. "ARGs have never been > >>> on the > >>> cards for us. We've run campaigns on PlayStation and we're > >>> confident in > >>> doing that, but not ARGs yet." > >>> > >>> ARGs utilise media across multiple platforms, including mobile, > >>> print, > >>> outdoor and online, with the player often able to influence the > >>> story. The > >>> first ARG was The Beast, used to promote the film Artificial > >>> Intelligence, > >>> with players taking part in a game that incorporated websites, > >>> email, > >>> telephone conversations. > >>> > >>> Sky won an nma Effectiveness Award in 2007 for its ARG for TV show > >>> 24. Last > >>> week the Red Cross launched its Traces of Hope ARG to raise > >>> awareness of > >>> civilians separated from their friends and families due to > >>> conflicts around > >>> the world. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> --- > >>> Mike Monello > >>> Partner, Campfire > >>> http://www.campfirenyc.com > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> ARG_Discuss mailing list > >>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org > >>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> ARG_Discuss mailing list > >>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org > >>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Adrian Hon - mssv.net > >> Chief Creative at Six to Start - www.sixtostart.com > >> Founder of Let's Change the Game - www.letschangethegame.org > >> _______________________________________________ > >> ARG_Discuss mailing list > >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org > >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > > > _______________________________________________ > > ARG_Discuss mailing list > > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > > > _______________________________________________ > > ARG_Discuss mailing list > > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > From andrhia at gmail.com Thu Oct 9 14:08:57 2008 From: andrhia at gmail.com (Andrea Phillips) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 14:08:57 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE: Copycat warning overalternative reality games) In-Reply-To: <1ddaf7680810091104i52ab13f2m80d27bff3bcd500d@mail.gmail.com> References: <00da01c92a34$eeebda30$6700a8c0@Tricorder> <1ddaf7680810091104i52ab13f2m80d27bff3bcd500d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5c799fd60810091108l2580f27w96dab6a9c2c7d081@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 2:04 PM, Steve Peters wrote: > At this point, we've been referring to them as Participatory Entertainment > Experiences... > Wow, and I didn't think we could come up with a worse acronym if we'd tried! -- Andrea Phillips http://www.deusexmachinatio.com Words * Culture * Interaction From Bryan.Alexander at nitle.org Thu Oct 9 14:15:55 2008 From: Bryan.Alexander at nitle.org (Bryan Alexander) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 14:15:55 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE: Copycat warningoveralternative reality games) In-Reply-To: <5c799fd60810091108l2580f27w96dab6a9c2c7d081@mail.gmail.com> References: <00da01c92a34$eeebda30$6700a8c0@Tricorder><1ddaf7680810091104i52ab13f2m80d27bff3bcd500d@mail.gmail.com> <5c799fd60810091108l2580f27w96dab6a9c2c7d081@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <08119B28F4B3FF46A5747921C9FAA678B7AF20@AA1EXCH06.office.share.org> Combine it with the television trope, and you get PEE-TV! -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Andrea Phillips Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 2:09 PM To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE: Copycat warningoveralternative reality games) On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 2:04 PM, Steve Peters wrote: > At this point, we've been referring to them as Participatory Entertainment > Experiences... > Wow, and I didn't think we could come up with a worse acronym if we'd tried! -- Andrea Phillips http://www.deusexmachinatio.com Words * Culture * Interaction _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From mmonello at campfirenyc.com Thu Oct 9 14:41:10 2008 From: mmonello at campfirenyc.com (Mike Monello) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 11:41:10 -0700 Subject: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE: Copycat warning overalternative reality games) In-Reply-To: <5c799fd60810091108l2580f27w96dab6a9c2c7d081@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I think the name should not attempt to describe the experience, but perhaps just a surface description of the canvas. "Painting" describes the tool used to create it - paint, not the experience of seeing it, the size, or any of the other changeable aspects. Same goes for "book" or "movie" or "photograph" or "game". Even when you start to drill down - board game, video game, party game, etc., you still never describe the experience of the thing, only some of the accoutrements or tactics, if you will. Branding something an ARG or a PEE excludes possibilities rather than embracing them. I look at a name like ARG, and I think of it the same way I think of "Platformer" or First Person Shooter" -- it's one specific type of [blank]. So what the hell is a [blank]? I have only questions, no answers! ;) -Mike On 10/9/08 2:08 PM, "Andrea Phillips" wrote: On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 2:04 PM, Steve Peters wrote: > At this point, we've been referring to them as Participatory Entertainment > Experiences... > Wow, and I didn't think we could come up with a worse acronym if we'd tried! -- Andrea Phillips http://www.deusexmachinatio.com Words * Culture * Interaction _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss --- Mike Monello Partner, Campfire http://www.campfirenyc.com From iaskwith at MIT.EDU Thu Oct 9 14:50:49 2008 From: iaskwith at MIT.EDU (Ivan Askwith) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 14:50:49 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE: Copycat warning overalternative reality games) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Immersive experiences, maybe? I think a lot of words we often use to refine descriptions of what we're doing end up being too specific to describe the entire field. To name just a few common examples: entertainment, game, narrative, interactive, participatory, cross-platform, transmedia. All of these are often pivotal descriptors for what we've been grouping as ARGs, but none are inescapable. Entertainment comes the closest, because when these experiences aren't entertaining, they rarely go anywhere. Even projects that clearly classify as educational tend to entertain while imparting knowledge or skill training. Depending on your definition, "participatory" might also describe most of them -- but if there's no active role for the "player/user" aside from finding scattered elements and "reading" them as a gestalt narrative, then even "participatory" and "interactive" can be slightly misleading. I think Mike's observation is important -- painting is a distinct term aside from pointillism, classical, abstract, and so on. It describes the medium more broadly. But what we refer to as ARGs are hard to even neatly classify as a "medium," so much as a logic or meta-level approach to using existing media and platforms to create specific, immersive experiences. Are we being over-reductive if we try to pin the form down too far? Maybe it's comparable to painting (which leans toward a notion of 'authorship') or reading (which emphasizes the role of the 'receiver'), or maybe it's comparable to conversation (which gives equal importance to the roles of all parties). I don't have answers either... But I do think it's an interesting problem, even if it's one that can get trapped and mired in semantic debates. > I think the name should not attempt to describe the experience, but > perhaps just a surface description of the canvas. > > "Painting" describes the tool used to create it - paint, not the > experience of seeing it, the size, or any of the other changeable > aspects. > > Same goes for "book" or "movie" or "photograph" or "game". Even when > you start to drill down - board game, video game, party game, etc., > you still never describe the experience of the thing, only some of > the accoutrements or tactics, if you will. > > Branding something an ARG or a PEE excludes possibilities rather > than embracing them. I look at a name like ARG, and I think of it > the same way I think of "Platformer" or First Person Shooter" -- > it's one specific type of [blank]. > > So what the hell is a [blank]? > > I have only questions, no answers! ;) > > -Mike > > > On 10/9/08 2:08 PM, "Andrea Phillips" wrote: > > On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 2:04 PM, Steve Peters > wrote: >> At this point, we've been referring to them as Participatory >> Entertainment >> Experiences... >> > > Wow, and I didn't think we could come up with a worse acronym if > we'd tried! > > > -- > Andrea Phillips > http://www.deusexmachinatio.com > Words * Culture * Interaction > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > > > --- > Mike Monello > Partner, Campfire > http://www.campfirenyc.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From scpeters at gmail.com Thu Oct 9 14:58:39 2008 From: scpeters at gmail.com (Steve Peters) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 11:58:39 -0700 Subject: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE: Copycat warning overalternative reality games) In-Reply-To: References: <5c799fd60810091108l2580f27w96dab6a9c2c7d081@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1ddaf7680810091158r51a17b9bra1aa7614f2370616@mail.gmail.com> In all seriousness, I think I can safely say that all of us are struggling with the same issue. In the past, entertainment has by and large been labeled based on its medium. Book, theater, film, tv show, yada yada. It's a lot easier to quantify. But what do you call something that can come at you from any and all of these mediums plus more? Big Cool Thing? Gonzo Experience? Immersive Entertainment? Extended Media Experience? That For Which Traditional Metrics Does Not Apply But Is Really Cool Trust Me (Hmm, not enough vowels for a proper acronym)? Honestly, I'm not so much concerned about what I should call it as much as just doing it, at this point. Typically, clients and potential clients (whether marketing execs or purely creative partners) still need to be SHOWN what an "ARG" is, so the term is meaningless for them as well. Because it's something different. Every. Time. :) And just to remove all doubt: I was kidding about the PEE. I always am. On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 11:41 AM, Mike Monello wrote: > I think the name should not attempt to describe the experience, but perhaps > just a surface description of the canvas. > > "Painting" describes the tool used to create it - paint, not the experience > of seeing it, the size, or any of the other changeable aspects. > > Same goes for "book" or "movie" or "photograph" or "game". Even when you > start to drill down - board game, video game, party game, etc., you still > never describe the experience of the thing, only some of the accoutrements > or tactics, if you will. > > Branding something an ARG or a PEE excludes possibilities rather than > embracing them. I look at a name like ARG, and I think of it the same way I > think of "Platformer" or First Person Shooter" -- it's one specific type of > [blank]. > > So what the hell is a [blank]? > > I have only questions, no answers! ;) > > -Mike > > > On 10/9/08 2:08 PM, "Andrea Phillips" wrote: > > On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 2:04 PM, Steve Peters wrote: > > At this point, we've been referring to them as Participatory > Entertainment > > Experiences... > > > > Wow, and I didn't think we could come up with a worse acronym if we'd > tried! > > > -- > Andrea Phillips > http://www.deusexmachinatio.com > Words * Culture * Interaction > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > > > --- > Mike Monello > Partner, Campfire > http://www.campfirenyc.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > From bclark at gmdstudios.com Thu Oct 9 14:58:48 2008 From: bclark at gmdstudios.com (Brian Clark) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 14:58:48 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE: Copycat warningoveralternative reality games) In-Reply-To: <5c799fd60810091108l2580f27w96dab6a9c2c7d081@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <012601c92a41$109f0e70$6700a8c0@Tricorder> Hmm, I kind of like Steve's. I've been thinking about "Shows Hinged in Technology" but others in my office think "Simple Live Ulterior Stories" will close a lot more phat ad contracts! -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Andrea Phillips Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 2:09 PM To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE: Copycat warningoveralternative reality games) On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 2:04 PM, Steve Peters wrote: > At this point, we've been referring to them as Participatory Entertainment > Experiences... > Wow, and I didn't think we could come up with a worse acronym if we'd tried! -- Andrea Phillips http://www.deusexmachinatio.com Words * Culture * Interaction _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From gupfee at gmail.com Thu Oct 9 15:02:02 2008 From: gupfee at gmail.com (Gupfee) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 15:02:02 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE: Copycat warningoveralternative reality games) In-Reply-To: <012601c92a41$109f0e70$6700a8c0@Tricorder> References: <5c799fd60810091108l2580f27w96dab6a9c2c7d081@mail.gmail.com> <012601c92a41$109f0e70$6700a8c0@Tricorder> Message-ID: <2cbc13f50810091202m6f100918gbd2dd7df8d9c786c@mail.gmail.com> On a more serious note, after hanging out w/Lance at DIY Days, I've been thinking of this kind of stuff as "Open Source Media". Marie On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 2:58 PM, Brian Clark wrote: > Hmm, I kind of like Steve's. I've been thinking about "Shows Hinged in > Technology" but others in my office think "Simple Live Ulterior Stories" > will close a lot more phat ad contracts! > > -----Original Message----- > From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] > On > Behalf Of Andrea Phillips > Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 2:09 PM > To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG > Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE: Copycat > warningoveralternative reality games) > > On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 2:04 PM, Steve Peters wrote: > > At this point, we've been referring to them as Participatory > Entertainment > > Experiences... > > > > Wow, and I didn't think we could come up with a worse acronym if we'd > tried! > > > -- > Andrea Phillips > http://www.deusexmachinatio.com > Words * Culture * Interaction > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > From bclark at gmdstudios.com Thu Oct 9 15:04:16 2008 From: bclark at gmdstudios.com (Brian Clark) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 15:04:16 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE: Copycat warningoveralternative reality games) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <012701c92a41$d40ccfa0$6700a8c0@Tricorder> I'm with Monello on the target and the lack of a good result that preserves people's intrinsic desire for "and it is something new". Everything that goes in that cluster is ancient, or it would be so pivotally definitional. Ivan, your labels are just as fine. But they aren't really subsets of the International GAME DEVELOPERS Association, so SIG abolished and we go back on our nomadic way? Personally, I have a looser definition of game, maybe "gamic" to satisfy academic purists. Most of our work is deeply influenced by those concepts, but aren't germane to this list as it is defined in my head. Obsolete like a baby tooth, in that we have to accept the absence for a tooth for a while until the real one grows in? -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Ivan Askwith Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 2:51 PM To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE: Copycat warningoveralternative reality games) Immersive experiences, maybe? I think a lot of words we often use to refine descriptions of what we're doing end up being too specific to describe the entire field. To name just a few common examples: entertainment, game, narrative, interactive, participatory, cross-platform, transmedia. All of these are often pivotal descriptors for what we've been grouping as ARGs, but none are inescapable. Entertainment comes the closest, because when these experiences aren't entertaining, they rarely go anywhere. Even projects that clearly classify as educational tend to entertain while imparting knowledge or skill training. Depending on your definition, "participatory" might also describe most of them -- but if there's no active role for the "player/user" aside from finding scattered elements and "reading" them as a gestalt narrative, then even "participatory" and "interactive" can be slightly misleading. I think Mike's observation is important -- painting is a distinct term aside from pointillism, classical, abstract, and so on. It describes the medium more broadly. But what we refer to as ARGs are hard to even neatly classify as a "medium," so much as a logic or meta-level approach to using existing media and platforms to create specific, immersive experiences. Are we being over-reductive if we try to pin the form down too far? Maybe it's comparable to painting (which leans toward a notion of 'authorship') or reading (which emphasizes the role of the 'receiver'), or maybe it's comparable to conversation (which gives equal importance to the roles of all parties). I don't have answers either... But I do think it's an interesting problem, even if it's one that can get trapped and mired in semantic debates. > I think the name should not attempt to describe the experience, but > perhaps just a surface description of the canvas. > > "Painting" describes the tool used to create it - paint, not the > experience of seeing it, the size, or any of the other changeable > aspects. > > Same goes for "book" or "movie" or "photograph" or "game". Even when > you start to drill down - board game, video game, party game, etc., > you still never describe the experience of the thing, only some of > the accoutrements or tactics, if you will. > > Branding something an ARG or a PEE excludes possibilities rather > than embracing them. I look at a name like ARG, and I think of it > the same way I think of "Platformer" or First Person Shooter" -- > it's one specific type of [blank]. > > So what the hell is a [blank]? > > I have only questions, no answers! ;) > > -Mike > > > On 10/9/08 2:08 PM, "Andrea Phillips" wrote: > > On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 2:04 PM, Steve Peters > wrote: >> At this point, we've been referring to them as Participatory >> Entertainment >> Experiences... >> > > Wow, and I didn't think we could come up with a worse acronym if > we'd tried! > > > -- > Andrea Phillips > http://www.deusexmachinatio.com > Words * Culture * Interaction > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > > > --- > Mike Monello > Partner, Campfire > http://www.campfirenyc.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From bclark at gmdstudios.com Thu Oct 9 15:09:46 2008 From: bclark at gmdstudios.com (Brian Clark) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 15:09:46 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE: Copycatwarningoveralternative reality games) In-Reply-To: <2cbc13f50810091202m6f100918gbd2dd7df8d9c786c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <012e01c92a42$98ae2ed0$6700a8c0@Tricorder> Now we're getting somewhere, Gupfee. I take back everything I said about agreeing with Monello, he's completely wrong. We don't care about the painting at all. That's what makes us difference. We do care about the act of painting ... the painting is mere documentation. I can point to the Art of the Heist, but we all agree is a documentation of something else, and this documentation is "dead" rather "living". The painting and the book are "dead" as well. What are the words we use to describing other living processes? Improv? Open Source? Collaborative? It is the introduction of time and control into all those dead media that makes us difference. I move we change the name "No Longer Dead Media". Next problem ... global economic crisis! Solve as an ARG community crisis problem! Discuss! Brian -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Gupfee Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 3:02 PM To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE: Copycatwarningoveralternative reality games) On a more serious note, after hanging out w/Lance at DIY Days, I've been thinking of this kind of stuff as "Open Source Media". Marie On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 2:58 PM, Brian Clark wrote: > Hmm, I kind of like Steve's. I've been thinking about "Shows Hinged in > Technology" but others in my office think "Simple Live Ulterior Stories" > will close a lot more phat ad contracts! > > -----Original Message----- > From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] > On > Behalf Of Andrea Phillips > Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 2:09 PM > To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG > Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE: Copycat > warningoveralternative reality games) > > On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 2:04 PM, Steve Peters wrote: > > At this point, we've been referring to them as Participatory > Entertainment > > Experiences... > > > > Wow, and I didn't think we could come up with a worse acronym if we'd > tried! > > > -- > Andrea Phillips > http://www.deusexmachinatio.com > Words * Culture * Interaction > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From bclark at gmdstudios.com Thu Oct 9 15:11:30 2008 From: bclark at gmdstudios.com (Brian Clark) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 15:11:30 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE:Copycatwarningoveralternative reality games) In-Reply-To: <012e01c92a42$98ae2ed0$6700a8c0@Tricorder> Message-ID: <012f01c92a42$d7783fc0$6700a8c0@Tricorder> And I so need to proofread ... sorry for the mangled English. Despite rumors, it is my primary language ... I blame the 5" screen and Bluetooth keyboard! -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Brian Clark Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 3:10 PM To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE:Copycatwarningoveralternative reality games) Now we're getting somewhere, Gupfee. I take back everything I said about agreeing with Monello, he's completely wrong. We don't care about the painting at all. That's what makes us difference. We do care about the act of painting ... the painting is mere documentation. I can point to the Art of the Heist, but we all agree is a documentation of something else, and this documentation is "dead" rather "living". The painting and the book are "dead" as well. What are the words we use to describing other living processes? Improv? Open Source? Collaborative? It is the introduction of time and control into all those dead media that makes us difference. I move we change the name "No Longer Dead Media". Next problem ... global economic crisis! Solve as an ARG community crisis problem! Discuss! Brian -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Gupfee Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 3:02 PM To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE: Copycatwarningoveralternative reality games) On a more serious note, after hanging out w/Lance at DIY Days, I've been thinking of this kind of stuff as "Open Source Media". Marie On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 2:58 PM, Brian Clark wrote: > Hmm, I kind of like Steve's. I've been thinking about "Shows Hinged in > Technology" but others in my office think "Simple Live Ulterior Stories" > will close a lot more phat ad contracts! > > -----Original Message----- > From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] > On > Behalf Of Andrea Phillips > Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 2:09 PM > To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG > Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE: Copycat > warningoveralternative reality games) > > On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 2:04 PM, Steve Peters wrote: > > At this point, we've been referring to them as Participatory > Entertainment > > Experiences... > > > > Wow, and I didn't think we could come up with a worse acronym if we'd > tried! > > > -- > Andrea Phillips > http://www.deusexmachinatio.com > Words * Culture * Interaction > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From mmonello at campfirenyc.com Thu Oct 9 15:17:00 2008 From: mmonello at campfirenyc.com (Mike Monello) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 12:17:00 -0700 Subject: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE: Copycatwarningoveralternative reality games) In-Reply-To: <012e01c92a42$98ae2ed0$6700a8c0@Tricorder> Message-ID: Ummmm... Theater. So there! ;) -m On 10/9/08 3:09 PM, "Brian Clark" wrote: Now we're getting somewhere, Gupfee. I take back everything I said about agreeing with Monello, he's completely wrong. We don't care about the painting at all. That's what makes us difference. We do care about the act of painting ... the painting is mere documentation. I can point to the Art of the Heist, but we all agree is a documentation of something else, and this documentation is "dead" rather "living". The painting and the book are "dead" as well. What are the words we use to describing other living processes? Improv? Open Source? Collaborative? It is the introduction of time and control into all those dead media that makes us difference. I move we change the name "No Longer Dead Media". Next problem ... global economic crisis! Solve as an ARG community crisis problem! Discuss! Brian -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Gupfee Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 3:02 PM To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE: Copycatwarningoveralternative reality games) On a more serious note, after hanging out w/Lance at DIY Days, I've been thinking of this kind of stuff as "Open Source Media". Marie On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 2:58 PM, Brian Clark wrote: > Hmm, I kind of like Steve's. I've been thinking about "Shows Hinged in > Technology" but others in my office think "Simple Live Ulterior Stories" > will close a lot more phat ad contracts! > > -----Original Message----- > From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] > On > Behalf Of Andrea Phillips > Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 2:09 PM > To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG > Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE: Copycat > warningoveralternative reality games) > > On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 2:04 PM, Steve Peters wrote: > > At this point, we've been referring to them as Participatory > Entertainment > > Experiences... > > > > Wow, and I didn't think we could come up with a worse acronym if we'd > tried! > > > -- > Andrea Phillips > http://www.deusexmachinatio.com > Words * Culture * Interaction > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss --- Mike Monello Partner, Campfire http://www.campfirenyc.com From baroblik at videotron.ca Thu Oct 9 15:18:26 2008 From: baroblik at videotron.ca (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Genevi=E8ve_Cardin?=) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 15:18:26 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE:Copycatwarningoveralternative reality games) In-Reply-To: <012f01c92a42$d7783fc0$6700a8c0@Tricorder> References: <012f01c92a42$d7783fc0$6700a8c0@Tricorder> Message-ID: <068A79E0-F1E2-4A8D-8018-421EE1A935A1@videotron.ca> WOW ! Wish my english was better to challenge and add something to all your great ideas. I agreed that OPEN SOURCE ?blank? might be the thing. Open source experience Open source storytelling Open source game It can refer easily to the user/player AND to the writer/creator/ developer sides of a project. OPEN is the word. Genevi?ve Cardin Baroblik Productions Inc. ARG / Cross-media experiences Web, Movies & TV Cell : (514) 924-TOUI (8684) baroblik at videotron.ca On 08-10-09, at 15:11, Brian Clark wrote: > And I so need to proofread ... sorry for the mangled English. Despite > rumors, it is my primary language ... I blame the 5" screen and > Bluetooth > keyboard! > > -----Original Message----- > From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss- > bounces at igda.org] On > Behalf Of Brian Clark > Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 3:10 PM > To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' > Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete > (RE:Copycatwarningoveralternative > reality games) > > Now we're getting somewhere, Gupfee. I take back everything I said > about > agreeing with Monello, he's completely wrong. > > We don't care about the painting at all. That's what makes us > difference. We > do care about the act of painting ... the painting is mere > documentation. > > I can point to the Art of the Heist, but we all agree is a > documentation of > something else, and this documentation is "dead" rather "living". > > The painting and the book are "dead" as well. What are the words we > use to > describing other living processes? > > Improv? Open Source? Collaborative? > > It is the introduction of time and control into all those dead > media that > makes us difference. > > I move we change the name "No Longer Dead Media". > > Next problem ... global economic crisis! Solve as an ARG community > crisis > problem! Discuss! > > Brian > > -----Original Message----- > From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss- > bounces at igda.org] On > Behalf Of Gupfee > Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 3:02 PM > To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG > Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE: > Copycatwarningoveralternative reality games) > > On a more serious note, after hanging out w/Lance at DIY Days, > I've been > thinking of this kind of stuff as "Open Source Media". > > Marie > > On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 2:58 PM, Brian Clark > wrote: > >> Hmm, I kind of like Steve's. I've been thinking about "Shows >> Hinged in >> Technology" but others in my office think "Simple Live Ulterior >> Stories" >> will close a lot more phat ad contracts! >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss- >> bounces at igda.org] >> On >> Behalf Of Andrea Phillips >> Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 2:09 PM >> To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG >> Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE: Copycat >> warningoveralternative reality games) >> >> On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 2:04 PM, Steve Peters >> wrote: >>> At this point, we've been referring to them as Participatory >> Entertainment >>> Experiences... >>> >> >> Wow, and I didn't think we could come up with a worse acronym if we'd >> tried! >> >> >> -- >> Andrea Phillips >> http://www.deusexmachinatio.com >> Words * Culture * Interaction >> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >> > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From andrhia at gmail.com Thu Oct 9 15:19:32 2008 From: andrhia at gmail.com (Andrea Phillips) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 15:19:32 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE: Copycatwarningoveralternative reality games) In-Reply-To: References: <012e01c92a42$98ae2ed0$6700a8c0@Tricorder> Message-ID: <5c799fd60810091219m10ac3fcbw1d71b27588443670@mail.gmail.com> I'm fond of the labels experiential storytelling and pervasive storytelling. -- Andrea Phillips http://www.deusexmachinatio.com Words * Culture * Interaction From bclark at gmdstudios.com Thu Oct 9 15:23:22 2008 From: bclark at gmdstudios.com (Brian Clark) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 15:23:22 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE: Copycatwarningoveralternative reality games) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <013b01c92a44$7ed96950$6700a8c0@Tricorder> Does theater include "improv comedy"? Does it include "live game show"? Does it include "drag show"? /shrug Your grenade, Mike, I'm just playing with it. -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Mike Monello Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 3:17 PM To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE: Copycatwarningoveralternative reality games) Ummmm... Theater. So there! ;) -m On 10/9/08 3:09 PM, "Brian Clark" wrote: Now we're getting somewhere, Gupfee. I take back everything I said about agreeing with Monello, he's completely wrong. We don't care about the painting at all. That's what makes us difference. We do care about the act of painting ... the painting is mere documentation. I can point to the Art of the Heist, but we all agree is a documentation of something else, and this documentation is "dead" rather "living". The painting and the book are "dead" as well. What are the words we use to describing other living processes? Improv? Open Source? Collaborative? It is the introduction of time and control into all those dead media that makes us difference. I move we change the name "No Longer Dead Media". Next problem ... global economic crisis! Solve as an ARG community crisis problem! Discuss! Brian -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Gupfee Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 3:02 PM To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE: Copycatwarningoveralternative reality games) On a more serious note, after hanging out w/Lance at DIY Days, I've been thinking of this kind of stuff as "Open Source Media". Marie On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 2:58 PM, Brian Clark wrote: > Hmm, I kind of like Steve's. I've been thinking about "Shows Hinged in > Technology" but others in my office think "Simple Live Ulterior Stories" > will close a lot more phat ad contracts! > > -----Original Message----- > From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] > On > Behalf Of Andrea Phillips > Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 2:09 PM > To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG > Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE: Copycat > warningoveralternative reality games) > > On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 2:04 PM, Steve Peters wrote: > > At this point, we've been referring to them as Participatory > Entertainment > > Experiences... > > > > Wow, and I didn't think we could come up with a worse acronym if we'd > tried! > > > -- > Andrea Phillips > http://www.deusexmachinatio.com > Words * Culture * Interaction > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss --- Mike Monello Partner, Campfire http://www.campfirenyc.com _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From bclark at gmdstudios.com Thu Oct 9 15:25:04 2008 From: bclark at gmdstudios.com (Brian Clark) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 15:25:04 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE:Copycatwarningoveralternative reality games) In-Reply-To: <5c799fd60810091219m10ac3fcbw1d71b27588443670@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <013c01c92a44$bbe353b0$6700a8c0@Tricorder> So the only consensus we really have is that whatever this, it isn't "game", eh? Haven't seen anyone just tag something on game ... like "platformless gaming". So no need for an IGDA SIG anymore? -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Andrea Phillips Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 3:20 PM To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE:Copycatwarningoveralternative reality games) I'm fond of the labels experiential storytelling and pervasive storytelling. -- Andrea Phillips http://www.deusexmachinatio.com Words * Culture * Interaction _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From btradish at earthlink.net Thu Oct 9 15:58:30 2008 From: btradish at earthlink.net (John Evans) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 15:58:30 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [arg_discuss] ARGs, games or not? Message-ID: <28422419.1223582310251.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net> >From: Brian Clark >Next problem ... global economic crisis! Solve as an ARG community crisis >problem! Discuss! So...SuperStruct? >From: Brian Clark >So the only consensus we really have is that whatever this, it isn't "game", >eh? Haven't seen anyone just tag something on game ... like "platformless >gaming". Well, hold on there. Personally, I tend to think of them as games, but that might be because of my own interest in all things game-ish. There are many definitions of "game" but let me pull one out of my... brain: "Player performs an action, action is judged, player receives feedback/rewards based on performance." There's also the voluntary/ magic circle stuff that is very important but not to this discussion. So, using that definition, any sort of "interaction" could be thought of as a "game". If you just have, say, story elements provided over different types of media...that's less of a game and more storytelling, but if you have people contributing, then it's more game-like. Superstruct appears to be quite game-like, with points and "badges" awarded for players who contribute. I have two ultimate points: First, if someone says "game", I think that's appropriate. And second, I for one am interested in exploring more game-like aspects of this...medium. Thing. -- John Evans Chaoseed Software - http://chaoseed.com From bclark at gmdstudios.com Thu Oct 9 16:09:25 2008 From: bclark at gmdstudios.com (Brian Clark) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 16:09:25 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] ARGs, games or not? In-Reply-To: <28422419.1223582310251.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <014c01c92a4a$edc336b0$6700a8c0@Tricorder> "Player performs an action, action is judged, player receives feedback/rewards based on performance." Get it, but doesn't that make everything a game and the whole argument collapse in a heap of post-modernism? Student takes a test, the test is graded, and the student receives a grade based upon their performance. Terrorists attack us, we think that sucks, so we invade a country that harbors them. "I have two ultimate points: First, if someone says "game", I think that's appropriate." Absolutely. I take a psycho-social approach: all group interaction becomes a form of gameplay. That's human nature. "And second, I for one am interested in exploring more game-like aspects of this...medium. Thing." So is that something different than this other stuff people are talking about that aren't using game in their definition? -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of John Evans Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 3:59 PM To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG Subject: [arg_discuss] ARGs, games or not? >From: Brian Clark >Next problem ... global economic crisis! Solve as an ARG community crisis >problem! Discuss! So...SuperStruct? >From: Brian Clark >So the only consensus we really have is that whatever this, it isn't "game", >eh? Haven't seen anyone just tag something on game ... like "platformless >gaming". Well, hold on there. Personally, I tend to think of them as games, but that might be because of my own interest in all things game-ish. There are many definitions of "game" but let me pull one out of my... brain: "Player performs an action, action is judged, player receives feedback/rewards based on performance." There's also the voluntary/ magic circle stuff that is very important but not to this discussion. So, using that definition, any sort of "interaction" could be thought of as a "game". If you just have, say, story elements provided over different types of media...that's less of a game and more storytelling, but if you have people contributing, then it's more game-like. Superstruct appears to be quite game-like, with points and "badges" awarded for players who contribute. I have two ultimate points: First, if someone says "game", I think that's appropriate. And second, I for one am interested in exploring more game-like aspects of this...medium. Thing. -- John Evans Chaoseed Software - http://chaoseed.com _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From jaybushman at gmail.com Thu Oct 9 16:43:50 2008 From: jaybushman at gmail.com (Jay Bushman) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 13:43:50 -0700 Subject: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE: Copycatwarningoveralternative reality games) In-Reply-To: <013b01c92a44$7ed96950$6700a8c0@Tricorder> References: <013b01c92a44$7ed96950$6700a8c0@Tricorder> Message-ID: <463D3967-2DC0-47F1-8544-13F28B83F3AF@gmail.com> Theater works for me. Or Drama (as in dramatics, as opposed to a not- comedy genre designation) My talks usually include the formulation that Story + Time = Drama. The Time aspect seems crucial here, maybe more so that the Place aspect that words like Immersive or Experiential or Reality imply =========================== The Loose-Fish Project: The Spoon River Metroblog: On Oct 9, 2008, at 12:23 PM, Brian Clark wrote: Does theater include "improv comedy"? Does it include "live game show"? Does it include "drag show"? /shrug Your grenade, Mike, I'm just playing with it. -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss- bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Mike Monello Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 3:17 PM To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE: Copycatwarningoveralternative reality games) Ummmm... Theater. So there! ;) -m On 10/9/08 3:09 PM, "Brian Clark" wrote: Now we're getting somewhere, Gupfee. I take back everything I said about agreeing with Monello, he's completely wrong. We don't care about the painting at all. That's what makes us difference. We do care about the act of painting ... the painting is mere documentation. I can point to the Art of the Heist, but we all agree is a documentation of something else, and this documentation is "dead" rather "living". The painting and the book are "dead" as well. What are the words we use to describing other living processes? Improv? Open Source? Collaborative? It is the introduction of time and control into all those dead media that makes us difference. I move we change the name "No Longer Dead Media". Next problem ... global economic crisis! Solve as an ARG community crisis problem! Discuss! Brian -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss- bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Gupfee Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 3:02 PM To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE: Copycatwarningoveralternative reality games) On a more serious note, after hanging out w/Lance at DIY Days, I've been thinking of this kind of stuff as "Open Source Media". Marie On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 2:58 PM, Brian Clark wrote: > Hmm, I kind of like Steve's. I've been thinking about "Shows Hinged in > Technology" but others in my office think "Simple Live Ulterior > Stories" > will close a lot more phat ad contracts! > > -----Original Message----- > From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org > ] > On > Behalf Of Andrea Phillips > Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 2:09 PM > To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG > Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE: Copycat > warningoveralternative reality games) > > On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 2:04 PM, Steve Peters > wrote: >> At this point, we've been referring to them as Participatory > Entertainment >> Experiences... >> > > Wow, and I didn't think we could come up with a worse acronym if we'd > tried! > > > -- > Andrea Phillips > http://www.deusexmachinatio.com > Words * Culture * Interaction > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss --- Mike Monello Partner, Campfire http://www.campfirenyc.com _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From adam.m.s.martin at googlemail.com Thu Oct 9 18:00:35 2008 From: adam.m.s.martin at googlemail.com (Adam Martin) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 15:00:35 -0700 Subject: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE: Copycat warning overalternative reality games) In-Reply-To: <1ddaf7680810091158r51a17b9bra1aa7614f2370616@mail.gmail.com> References: <5c799fd60810091108l2580f27w96dab6a9c2c7d081@mail.gmail.com> <1ddaf7680810091158r51a17b9bra1aa7614f2370616@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Funnily enough, some people have revived the old debate recently on the MUD-DEV mailing list about "what should we be calling Massively Multiplayer Online Games, instead of "MMOGs"? That terminology sucks, and is so unfair and restrictive and stupid!". Some nice ideas thrown out, but not a single one of them will stick. The problem is, it's NOT a definition, it's a "label". As is ARG. ARG is actually quite good IMHO (considering how intrinsically bad it is), because it often gets used as a (pronounceable) acronym, which at least slightly makes it more label-like and less descriptive in people's minds. (and because it inspired this conversation, which I think has a lot of good points raised already :)) Steve provided a great concrete example of the label issue: 2008/10/9 Steve Peters : > > Honestly, I'm not so much concerned about what I should call it as much as > just doing it, at this point. Typically, clients and potential clients > (whether marketing execs or purely creative partners) still need to be SHOWN > what an "ARG" is, so the term is meaningless for them as well. Because it's > something different. Every. Time. :) Yep, it's meaningless. We don't need a meaningful term (they wouldn't understand that anyway, until it's explained to them), we just need a label that works. There's 3 million hits for "arg game" on google, but that's enough to make it a very useful label for now to carry on using - if only because it makes what you do discoverable by the people who probably want to find you (*especially* if they don't themselvs really understand what these things-called-ARGs *really* are). I've been through these naming debates before. I've tried really hard, along with others, to no avail (although I believe we all ended up slightly increasing our own understanding of the context and essence of the things we were talking about). Usually, they come up with a handful of nice ideas, but don't effect any meaningful change. The weight of "pre-existing usage" is almost impossible to overcome - and usually the debates focus on "fixing the definition", when the name isn't actually a definition at all. IMHO. Adam From adam.m.s.martin at googlemail.com Thu Oct 9 18:03:18 2008 From: adam.m.s.martin at googlemail.com (Adam Martin) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 15:03:18 -0700 Subject: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE:Copycatwarningoveralternative reality games) In-Reply-To: <013c01c92a44$bbe353b0$6700a8c0@Tricorder> References: <5c799fd60810091219m10ac3fcbw1d71b27588443670@mail.gmail.com> <013c01c92a44$bbe353b0$6700a8c0@Tricorder> Message-ID: 2008/10/9 Brian Clark : > So no need for an IGDA SIG anymore? The IGDA seems happy with supporting us so far :), and with what we do (and it's relationship to games). IGDA's "games" remit seems to be set very broad, generally speaking. They're even offering us money, just waiting for us to tell them what we need it for... From gupfee at gmail.com Thu Oct 9 18:17:29 2008 From: gupfee at gmail.com (Gupfee) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 18:17:29 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE:Copycatwarningoveralternative reality games) In-Reply-To: References: <5c799fd60810091219m10ac3fcbw1d71b27588443670@mail.gmail.com> <013c01c92a44$bbe353b0$6700a8c0@Tricorder> Message-ID: <2cbc13f50810091517n2ff20589tc75de698f9d2a218@mail.gmail.com> *They're even offering us money, just waiting for us to tell them what we need it for...* Maybe we should run an ARG... On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 6:03 PM, Adam Martin wrote: > 2008/10/9 Brian Clark : > > So no need for an IGDA SIG anymore? > > The IGDA seems happy with supporting us so far :), and with what we do > (and it's relationship to games). IGDA's "games" remit seems to be set > very broad, generally speaking. > > They're even offering us money, just waiting for us to tell them what > we need it for... > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > From wendeth at wendydespain.com Thu Oct 9 18:32:16 2008 From: wendeth at wendydespain.com (Wendy Despain) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 15:32:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE:Copycatwarningoveralternative reality games) In-Reply-To: References: <5c799fd60810091219m10ac3fcbw1d71b27588443670@mail.gmail.com> <013c01c92a44$bbe353b0$6700a8c0@Tricorder> Message-ID: <59d86d5366095a5ee0e70f2bcdcaa61f.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> I for one have no problem with the ARG label or the hanging out with video game folks. Videogames are more and more interested in narrative these days, and I think the "gamey" parts of ARGs improve the player experience. And when I tell videogame devs that I also do ARGs they no longer stare blankly at me and think I just choked on something. I plan to continue to embrace it and love it and call it george. Wendy Despain quantumcontent.com On Thu, October 9, 2008 3:03 pm, Adam Martin wrote: > 2008/10/9 Brian Clark : >> So no need for an IGDA SIG anymore? > > The IGDA seems happy with supporting us so far :), and with what we do > (and it's relationship to games). IGDA's "games" remit seems to be set > very broad, generally speaking. > > They're even offering us money, just waiting for us to tell them what > we need it for... > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > Wendy Despain quantumcontent.com From will at studiocypher.com Thu Oct 9 20:26:35 2008 From: will at studiocypher.com (Will Emigh) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 20:26:35 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE: Copycatwarningoveralternative reality games) In-Reply-To: <012e01c92a42$98ae2ed0$6700a8c0@Tricorder> References: <2cbc13f50810091202m6f100918gbd2dd7df8d9c786c@mail.gmail.com> <012e01c92a42$98ae2ed0$6700a8c0@Tricorder> Message-ID: <106548320810091726s700a2d7ekd86ed4a8705dcd8@mail.gmail.com> We always called them Multiplayer Novels for a similar reason. It's a participatory process (multiplayer) that produces something "dead" (novel). Of course, that has its own problems, not least of which is an unpronounceable acronym. -- Will On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 3:09 PM, Brian Clark wrote: > Now we're getting somewhere, Gupfee. I take back everything I said about > agreeing with Monello, he's completely wrong. > > We don't care about the painting at all. That's what makes us difference. > We > do care about the act of painting ... the painting is mere documentation. > > I can point to the Art of the Heist, but we all agree is a documentation of > something else, and this documentation is "dead" rather "living". > > The painting and the book are "dead" as well. What are the words we use to > describing other living processes? > > Improv? Open Source? Collaborative? > > It is the introduction of time and control into all those dead media that > makes us difference. > > I move we change the name "No Longer Dead Media". > > Next problem ... global economic crisis! Solve as an ARG community crisis > problem! Discuss! > > Brian > > -----Original Message----- > From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] > On > Behalf Of Gupfee > Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 3:02 PM > To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG > Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE: > Copycatwarningoveralternative reality games) > > On a more serious note, after hanging out w/Lance at DIY Days, I've been > thinking of this kind of stuff as "Open Source Media". > > Marie > > On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 2:58 PM, Brian Clark wrote: > > > Hmm, I kind of like Steve's. I've been thinking about "Shows Hinged in > > Technology" but others in my office think "Simple Live Ulterior Stories" > > will close a lot more phat ad contracts! > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] > > On > > Behalf Of Andrea Phillips > > Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 2:09 PM > > To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG > > Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE: Copycat > > warningoveralternative reality games) > > > > On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 2:04 PM, Steve Peters wrote: > > > At this point, we've been referring to them as Participatory > > Entertainment > > > Experiences... > > > > > > > Wow, and I didn't think we could come up with a worse acronym if we'd > > tried! > > > > > > -- > > Andrea Phillips > > http://www.deusexmachinatio.com > > Words * Culture * Interaction > > _______________________________________________ > > ARG_Discuss mailing list > > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > > > _______________________________________________ > > ARG_Discuss mailing list > > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > From a.r.nakama at gmail.com Thu Oct 9 22:42:55 2008 From: a.r.nakama at gmail.com (A Nakama) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 22:42:55 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] ARGs, games or not? In-Reply-To: <014c01c92a4a$edc336b0$6700a8c0@Tricorder> References: <28422419.1223582310251.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <014c01c92a4a$edc336b0$6700a8c0@Tricorder> Message-ID: > Absolutely. I take a psycho-social approach: all group interaction becomes > a > form of gameplay. That's human nature. > Here's a good place to throw in my sideways semantic 2c. If you take a similar premise (that "reality" in civilized society is based more on social contract than on physicality), then LARPing is an ARG in a very limited media. For some span of time, a group of people decide to act as if some reality different from the rest of the world's is the "real" one. The difference is that all the players are (usually) in the same room, and the boundaries are a bit more clear. I just find it useful when designing to consider LARPs and ARGs the same beast except for scaling. And I'm a fan of thinking of stories/games as this abstract field of the same thing with different degrees of agency and emphasis on storytelling and other more fuzzy elements (ie games make better stories and vice versa). Thanks to participatory and fan culture, even a one-way broadcast movie or a book can take on ARGlike elements with a creative enough fan at the other end--and this is without getting all post-moderny. In other words, so long as we're violating the Standard Model of our communal social contract, I think of it as an ARG, and try to consider what tools and scale I need to best make it an interesting and resonant experience. ~ Adam Nakama > > "And second, I for one am interested in exploring more game-like aspects of > this...medium. Thing." > > So is that something different than this other stuff people are talking > about that aren't using game in their definition? > > -----Original Message----- > From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] > On > Behalf Of John Evans > Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 3:59 PM > To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG > Subject: [arg_discuss] ARGs, games or not? > > >From: Brian Clark > >Next problem ... global economic crisis! Solve as an ARG community crisis > >problem! Discuss! > > So...SuperStruct? > > >From: Brian Clark > >So the only consensus we really have is that whatever this, it isn't > "game", > >eh? Haven't seen anyone just tag something on game ... like "platformless > >gaming". > > Well, hold on there. Personally, I tend to think of them as games, but > that might be because of my own interest in all things game-ish. > There are many definitions of "game" but let me pull one out of my... > brain: "Player performs an action, action is judged, player receives > feedback/rewards based on performance." There's also the voluntary/ > magic circle stuff that is very important but not to this discussion. > > So, using that definition, any sort of "interaction" could be thought > of as a "game". If you just have, say, story elements provided over > different types of media...that's less of a game and more storytelling, > but if you have people contributing, then it's more game-like. > Superstruct appears to be quite game-like, with points and "badges" > awarded for players who contribute. > > I have two ultimate points: First, if someone says "game", I think > that's appropriate. And second, I for one am interested in exploring > more game-like aspects of this...medium. Thing. > > -- > John Evans > Chaoseed Software - http://chaoseed.com > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > From bclark at gmdstudios.com Fri Oct 10 07:08:16 2008 From: bclark at gmdstudios.com (Brian Clark) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 07:08:16 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE:Copycatwarningoveralternativereality games) In-Reply-To: <2cbc13f50810091517n2ff20589tc75de698f9d2a218@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <004301c92ac8$7f737a70$6700a8c0@Tricorder> "Maybe we should run an ARG..." Or hire a NAMING consultant! ;) -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Gupfee Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 6:17 PM To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE:Copycatwarningoveralternativereality games) *They're even offering us money, just waiting for us to tell them what we need it for...* Maybe we should run an ARG... On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 6:03 PM, Adam Martin wrote: > 2008/10/9 Brian Clark : > > So no need for an IGDA SIG anymore? > > The IGDA seems happy with supporting us so far :), and with what we do > (and it's relationship to games). IGDA's "games" remit seems to be set > very broad, generally speaking. > > They're even offering us money, just waiting for us to tell them what > we need it for... > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From bclark at gmdstudios.com Fri Oct 10 07:22:29 2008 From: bclark at gmdstudios.com (Brian Clark) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 07:22:29 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE:Copycatwarningoveralternative reality games) In-Reply-To: <59d86d5366095a5ee0e70f2bcdcaa61f.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> Message-ID: <007801c92aca$7b9bd3a0$6700a8c0@Tricorder> "I plan to continue to embrace it and love it and call it george." I hope no one took my Swiftian arguments too seriously yesterday: I was just being overly-provocative to see what oozes out if we pick the scab off. Plus Monello gave me $5 (but I also had to eat a bug.) If I had to give my serious opinion, though, it is a variant of Adam's: ARG was always a label, not a genre not a media not an art form. It was a label applied by the fan community to describe SOME of what we do, but not ALL of what we do. Internally, as a lab and studio, we see far less distinction between our projects, but then we essentially study digital human interaction (so that's fine). As a creator, the label is useful if it provides some expectation of the experience the audience might have, so I find myself using "ARGish" far more than I use "ARG". If I had to pick a hill to plant my flag on, the closest match would be Experience Design of the post-Shedroff variety. I think Adam hit another key point though, which is the general sense of d?j? vu on definitions to the 1990s and MUD/MOO/MUSH, a stable triad of different definitions and goals for something very similar. I've always had a nagging suspicion that these same definitions apply here as well ... that part of the difference between my work that gets called ARG and what doesn't is related to the MUD/MOO distinction (MUD=ARG, MOO="Extended Experience" roughly.) But that really just brings us back to Monello's "lots of experimental variety" comment that opened all of this, and only really brings to it the idea that ARG might just be a subset of that variety rather than the umbrella. Which begs what the umbrella concept is all over again, right? -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Wendy Despain Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 6:32 PM To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE:Copycatwarningoveralternative reality games) I for one have no problem with the ARG label or the hanging out with video game folks. Videogames are more and more interested in narrative these days, and I think the "gamey" parts of ARGs improve the player experience. And when I tell videogame devs that I also do ARGs they no longer stare blankly at me and think I just choked on something. I plan to continue to embrace it and love it and call it george. Wendy Despain quantumcontent.com On Thu, October 9, 2008 3:03 pm, Adam Martin wrote: > 2008/10/9 Brian Clark : >> So no need for an IGDA SIG anymore? > > The IGDA seems happy with supporting us so far :), and with what we do > (and it's relationship to games). IGDA's "games" remit seems to be set > very broad, generally speaking. > > They're even offering us money, just waiting for us to tell them what > we need it for... > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > Wendy Despain quantumcontent.com _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From mj_williams at mac.com Fri Oct 10 07:28:20 2008 From: mj_williams at mac.com (mj williams) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 12:28:20 +0100 Subject: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE:Copycatwarningoveralternativereality games) In-Reply-To: <004301c92ac8$7f737a70$6700a8c0@Tricorder> References: <004301c92ac8$7f737a70$6700a8c0@Tricorder> Message-ID: "...then they changed their name back to the Thamesmen, so we became the New Originals" This is a bit like being in a band, isn't it? On 10 Oct 2008, at 12:08, Brian Clark wrote: "Maybe we should run an ARG..." Or hire a NAMING consultant! ;) -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss- bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Gupfee Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 6:17 PM To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE:Copycatwarningoveralternativereality games) *They're even offering us money, just waiting for us to tell them what we need it for...* Maybe we should run an ARG... On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 6:03 PM, Adam Martin wrote: > 2008/10/9 Brian Clark : >> So no need for an IGDA SIG anymore? > > The IGDA seems happy with supporting us so far :), and with what we do > (and it's relationship to games). IGDA's "games" remit seems to be set > very broad, generally speaking. > > They're even offering us money, just waiting for us to tell them what > we need it for... > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From Craig.Harkness at port.ac.uk Fri Oct 10 07:56:36 2008 From: Craig.Harkness at port.ac.uk (Craig Harkness) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 12:56:36 +0100 Subject: [arg_discuss] Contents of ARG_Discuss Digest, Vol 38, Issue 8, Topic 6: ARGs, games or not? (A Nakama) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48EF5104.6679.00AB.0@port.ac.uk> When I first started getting into ARGs the similarities with LARPing struck me as well. When describing ARGs/Multiplayer Novels/Immersive Experiences/Participatory Entertainment Experiences to people I would say it was kind of like role play but it takes place in the "real" world and online and the role you play is yourself. Send ARG_Discuss mailing list submissions to arg_discuss at igda.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to arg_discuss-request at igda.org You can reach the person managing the list at arg_discuss-owner at igda.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of ARG_Discuss digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: we are obsolete (RE: Copycat warning overalternative reality games) (Adam Martin) 2. Re: we are obsolete (RE:Copycatwarningoveralternative reality games) (Adam Martin) 3. Re: we are obsolete (RE:Copycatwarningoveralternative reality games) (Gupfee) 4. Re: we are obsolete (RE:Copycatwarningoveralternative reality games) (Wendy Despain) 5. Re: we are obsolete (RE: Copycatwarningoveralternative reality games) (Will Emigh) 6. Re: ARGs, games or not? (A Nakama) 7. Re: we are obsolete (RE:Copycatwarningoveralternativereality games) (Brian Clark) 8. Re: we are obsolete (RE:Copycatwarningoveralternative reality games) (Brian Clark) 9. Re: we are obsolete (RE:Copycatwarningoveralternativereality games) (mj williams) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 15:00:35 -0700 From: "Adam Martin" Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE: Copycat warning overalternative reality games) To: "Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Funnily enough, some people have revived the old debate recently on the MUD-DEV mailing list about "what should we be calling Massively Multiplayer Online Games, instead of "MMOGs"? That terminology sucks, and is so unfair and restrictive and stupid!". Some nice ideas thrown out, but not a single one of them will stick. The problem is, it's NOT a definition, it's a "label". As is ARG. ARG is actually quite good IMHO (considering how intrinsically bad it is), because it often gets used as a (pronounceable) acronym, which at least slightly makes it more label-like and less descriptive in people's minds. (and because it inspired this conversation, which I think has a lot of good points raised already :)) Steve provided a great concrete example of the label issue: 2008/10/9 Steve Peters : > > Honestly, I'm not so much concerned about what I should call it as much as > just doing it, at this point. Typically, clients and potential clients > (whether marketing execs or purely creative partners) still need to be SHOWN > what an "ARG" is, so the term is meaningless for them as well. Because it's > something different. Every. Time. :) Yep, it's meaningless. We don't need a meaningful term (they wouldn't understand that anyway, until it's explained to them), we just need a label that works. There's 3 million hits for "arg game" on google, but that's enough to make it a very useful label for now to carry on using - if only because it makes what you do discoverable by the people who probably want to find you (*especially* if they don't themselvs really understand what these things-called-ARGs *really* are). I've been through these naming debates before. I've tried really hard, along with others, to no avail (although I believe we all ended up slightly increasing our own understanding of the context and essence of the things we were talking about). Usually, they come up with a handful of nice ideas, but don't effect any meaningful change. The weight of "pre-existing usage" is almost impossible to overcome - and usually the debates focus on "fixing the definition", when the name isn't actually a definition at all. IMHO. Adam ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 15:03:18 -0700 From: "Adam Martin" Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE:Copycatwarningoveralternative reality games) To: "Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 2008/10/9 Brian Clark : > So no need for an IGDA SIG anymore? The IGDA seems happy with supporting us so far :), and with what we do (and it's relationship to games). IGDA's "games" remit seems to be set very broad, generally speaking. They're even offering us money, just waiting for us to tell them what we need it for... ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 18:17:29 -0400 From: Gupfee Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE:Copycatwarningoveralternative reality games) To: "Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG" Message-ID: <2cbc13f50810091517n2ff20589tc75de698f9d2a218 at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 *They're even offering us money, just waiting for us to tell them what we need it for...* Maybe we should run an ARG... On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 6:03 PM, Adam Martin wrote: > 2008/10/9 Brian Clark : > > So no need for an IGDA SIG anymore? > > The IGDA seems happy with supporting us so far :), and with what we do > (and it's relationship to games). IGDA's "games" remit seems to be set > very broad, generally speaking. > > They're even offering us money, just waiting for us to tell them what > we need it for... > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 15:32:16 -0700 (PDT) From: "Wendy Despain" Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE:Copycatwarningoveralternative reality games) To: "Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG" Message-ID: <59d86d5366095a5ee0e70f2bcdcaa61f.squirrel at webmail.wendydespain.com> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 I for one have no problem with the ARG label or the hanging out with video game folks. Videogames are more and more interested in narrative these days, and I think the "gamey" parts of ARGs improve the player experience. And when I tell videogame devs that I also do ARGs they no longer stare blankly at me and think I just choked on something. I plan to continue to embrace it and love it and call it george. Wendy Despain quantumcontent.com On Thu, October 9, 2008 3:03 pm, Adam Martin wrote: > 2008/10/9 Brian Clark : >> So no need for an IGDA SIG anymore? > > The IGDA seems happy with supporting us so far :), and with what we do > (and it's relationship to games). IGDA's "games" remit seems to be set > very broad, generally speaking. > > They're even offering us money, just waiting for us to tell them what > we need it for... > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > Wendy Despain quantumcontent.com ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 20:26:35 -0400 From: "Will Emigh" Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE: Copycatwarningoveralternative reality games) To: "Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG" Message-ID: <106548320810091726s700a2d7ekd86ed4a8705dcd8 at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 We always called them Multiplayer Novels for a similar reason. It's a participatory process (multiplayer) that produces something "dead" (novel). Of course, that has its own problems, not least of which is an unpronounceable acronym. -- Will On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 3:09 PM, Brian Clark wrote: > Now we're getting somewhere, Gupfee. I take back everything I said about > agreeing with Monello, he's completely wrong. > > We don't care about the painting at all. That's what makes us difference. > We > do care about the act of painting ... the painting is mere documentation. > > I can point to the Art of the Heist, but we all agree is a documentation of > something else, and this documentation is "dead" rather "living". > > The painting and the book are "dead" as well. What are the words we use to > describing other living processes? > > Improv? Open Source? Collaborative? > > It is the introduction of time and control into all those dead media that > makes us difference. > > I move we change the name "No Longer Dead Media". > > Next problem ... global economic crisis! Solve as an ARG community crisis > problem! Discuss! > > Brian > > -----Original Message----- > From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] > On > Behalf Of Gupfee > Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 3:02 PM > To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG > Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE: > Copycatwarningoveralternative reality games) > > On a more serious note, after hanging out w/Lance at DIY Days, I've been > thinking of this kind of stuff as "Open Source Media". > > Marie > > On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 2:58 PM, Brian Clark wrote: > > > Hmm, I kind of like Steve's. I've been thinking about "Shows Hinged in > > Technology" but others in my office think "Simple Live Ulterior Stories" > > will close a lot more phat ad contracts! > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] > > On > > Behalf Of Andrea Phillips > > Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 2:09 PM > > To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG > > Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE: Copycat > > warningoveralternative reality games) > > > > On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 2:04 PM, Steve Peters wrote: > > > At this point, we've been referring to them as Participatory > > Entertainment > > > Experiences... > > > > > > > Wow, and I didn't think we could come up with a worse acronym if we'd > > tried! > > > > > > -- > > Andrea Phillips > > http://www.deusexmachinatio.com > > Words * Culture * Interaction > > _______________________________________________ > > ARG_Discuss mailing list > > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > > > _______________________________________________ > > ARG_Discuss mailing list > > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 22:42:55 -0400 From: "A Nakama" Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] ARGs, games or not? To: "Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > Absolutely. I take a psycho-social approach: all group interaction becomes > a > form of gameplay. That's human nature. > Here's a good place to throw in my sideways semantic 2c. If you take a similar premise (that "reality" in civilized society is based more on social contract than on physicality), then LARPing is an ARG in a very limited media. For some span of time, a group of people decide to act as if some reality different from the rest of the world's is the "real" one. The difference is that all the players are (usually) in the same room, and the boundaries are a bit more clear. I just find it useful when designing to consider LARPs and ARGs the same beast except for scaling. And I'm a fan of thinking of stories/games as this abstract field of the same thing with different degrees of agency and emphasis on storytelling and other more fuzzy elements (ie games make better stories and vice versa). Thanks to participatory and fan culture, even a one-way broadcast movie or a book can take on ARGlike elements with a creative enough fan at the other end--and this is without getting all post-moderny. In other words, so long as we're violating the Standard Model of our communal social contract, I think of it as an ARG, and try to consider what tools and scale I need to best make it an interesting and resonant experience. ~ Adam Nakama > > "And second, I for one am interested in exploring more game-like aspects of > this...medium. Thing." > > So is that something different than this other stuff people are talking > about that aren't using game in their definition? > > -----Original Message----- > From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] > On > Behalf Of John Evans > Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 3:59 PM > To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG > Subject: [arg_discuss] ARGs, games or not? > > >From: Brian Clark > >Next problem ... global economic crisis! Solve as an ARG community crisis > >problem! Discuss! > > So...SuperStruct? > > >From: Brian Clark > >So the only consensus we really have is that whatever this, it isn't > "game", > >eh? Haven't seen anyone just tag something on game ... like "platformless > >gaming". > > Well, hold on there. Personally, I tend to think of them as games, but > that might be because of my own interest in all things game-ish. > There are many definitions of "game" but let me pull one out of my... > brain: "Player performs an action, action is judged, player receives > feedback/rewards based on performance." There's also the voluntary/ > magic circle stuff that is very important but not to this discussion. > > So, using that definition, any sort of "interaction" could be thought > of as a "game". If you just have, say, story elements provided over > different types of media...that's less of a game and more storytelling, > but if you have people contributing, then it's more game-like. > Superstruct appears to be quite game-like, with points and "badges" > awarded for players who contribute. > > I have two ultimate points: First, if someone says "game", I think > that's appropriate. And second, I for one am interested in exploring > more game-like aspects of this...medium. Thing. > > -- > John Evans > Chaoseed Software - http://chaoseed.com > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 07:08:16 -0400 From: "Brian Clark" Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE:Copycatwarningoveralternativereality games) To: "'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG'" Message-ID: <004301c92ac8$7f737a70$6700a8c0 at Tricorder> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" "Maybe we should run an ARG..." Or hire a NAMING consultant! ;) -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Gupfee Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 6:17 PM To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE:Copycatwarningoveralternativereality games) *They're even offering us money, just waiting for us to tell them what we need it for...* Maybe we should run an ARG... On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 6:03 PM, Adam Martin wrote: > 2008/10/9 Brian Clark : > > So no need for an IGDA SIG anymore? > > The IGDA seems happy with supporting us so far :), and with what we do > (and it's relationship to games). IGDA's "games" remit seems to be set > very broad, generally speaking. > > They're even offering us money, just waiting for us to tell them what > we need it for... > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 07:22:29 -0400 From: "Brian Clark" Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE:Copycatwarningoveralternative reality games) To: "'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG'" Message-ID: <007801c92aca$7b9bd3a0$6700a8c0 at Tricorder> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" "I plan to continue to embrace it and love it and call it george." I hope no one took my Swiftian arguments too seriously yesterday: I was just being overly-provocative to see what oozes out if we pick the scab off. Plus Monello gave me $5 (but I also had to eat a bug.) If I had to give my serious opinion, though, it is a variant of Adam's: ARG was always a label, not a genre not a media not an art form. It was a label applied by the fan community to describe SOME of what we do, but not ALL of what we do. Internally, as a lab and studio, we see far less distinction between our projects, but then we essentially study digital human interaction (so that's fine). As a creator, the label is useful if it provides some expectation of the experience the audience might have, so I find myself using "ARGish" far more than I use "ARG". If I had to pick a hill to plant my flag on, the closest match would be Experience Design of the post-Shedroff variety. I think Adam hit another key point though, which is the general sense of d?j? vu on definitions to the 1990s and MUD/MOO/MUSH, a stable triad of different definitions and goals for something very similar. I've always had a nagging suspicion that these same definitions apply here as well ... that part of the difference between my work that gets called ARG and what doesn't is related to the MUD/MOO distinction (MUD=ARG, MOO="Extended Experience" roughly.) But that really just brings us back to Monello's "lots of experimental variety" comment that opened all of this, and only really brings to it the idea that ARG might just be a subset of that variety rather than the umbrella. Which begs what the umbrella concept is all over again, right? -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Wendy Despain Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 6:32 PM To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE:Copycatwarningoveralternative reality games) I for one have no problem with the ARG label or the hanging out with video game folks. Videogames are more and more interested in narrative these days, and I think the "gamey" parts of ARGs improve the player experience. And when I tell videogame devs that I also do ARGs they no longer stare blankly at me and think I just choked on something. I plan to continue to embrace it and love it and call it george. Wendy Despain quantumcontent.com On Thu, October 9, 2008 3:03 pm, Adam Martin wrote: > 2008/10/9 Brian Clark : >> So no need for an IGDA SIG anymore? > > The IGDA seems happy with supporting us so far :), and with what we do > (and it's relationship to games). IGDA's "games" remit seems to be set > very broad, generally speaking. > > They're even offering us money, just waiting for us to tell them what > we need it for... > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > Wendy Despain quantumcontent.com _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 12:28:20 +0100 From: mj williams Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE:Copycatwarningoveralternativereality games) To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes "...then they changed their name back to the Thamesmen, so we became the New Originals" This is a bit like being in a band, isn't it? On 10 Oct 2008, at 12:08, Brian Clark wrote: "Maybe we should run an ARG..." Or hire a NAMING consultant! ;) -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss- bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Gupfee Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 6:17 PM To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE:Copycatwarningoveralternativereality games) *They're even offering us money, just waiting for us to tell them what we need it for...* Maybe we should run an ARG... On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 6:03 PM, Adam Martin wrote: > 2008/10/9 Brian Clark : >> So no need for an IGDA SIG anymore? > > The IGDA seems happy with supporting us so far :), and with what we do > (and it's relationship to games). IGDA's "games" remit seems to be set > very broad, generally speaking. > > They're even offering us money, just waiting for us to tell them what > we need it for... > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss End of ARG_Discuss Digest, Vol 38, Issue 8 ****************************************** From jason at aporiacme.com Fri Oct 10 08:06:48 2008 From: jason at aporiacme.com (Jason Chrest) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 12:06:48 +0000 Subject: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE:Copycatwarningoveralternativereality games) In-Reply-To: <007801c92aca$7b9bd3a0$6700a8c0@Tricorder> References: <59d86d5366095a5ee0e70f2bcdcaa61f.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com><007801c92aca$7b9bd3a0$6700a8c0@Tricorder> Message-ID: <1995153606-1223640414-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1775218880-@bxe155.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Interactive Cross-Media Games in Alternate Parallel Universes run by deviants!! ICMGAPURBD SIG I like the length! ICMG though could be a fair representation of the majority of games I have followed in the past. It's not as sexy of an acronym as arg, but - /shrug. (Just wanted to toss my two dusty pennies into the ring and hope I didn't miss good emails lol) Jason Chrest Aporia Cross-Media Entertainment, LLC. http://news.aporiacme.com Cell:(662)251-9312 jason at aporiacme.com -----Original Message----- From: "Brian Clark" Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 07:22:29 To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE:Copycatwarningoveralternative reality games) "I plan to continue to embrace it and love it and call it george." I hope no one took my Swiftian arguments too seriously yesterday: I was just being overly-provocative to see what oozes out if we pick the scab off. Plus Monello gave me $5 (but I also had to eat a bug.) If I had to give my serious opinion, though, it is a variant of Adam's: ARG was always a label, not a genre not a media not an art form. It was a label applied by the fan community to describe SOME of what we do, but not ALL of what we do. Internally, as a lab and studio, we see far less distinction between our projects, but then we essentially study digital human interaction (so that's fine). As a creator, the label is useful if it provides some expectation of the experience the audience might have, so I find myself using "ARGish" far more than I use "ARG". If I had to pick a hill to plant my flag on, the closest match would be Experience Design of the post-Shedroff variety. I think Adam hit another key point though, which is the general sense of d?j? vu on definitions to the 1990s and MUD/MOO/MUSH, a stable triad of different definitions and goals for something very similar. I've always had a nagging suspicion that these same definitions apply here as well ... that part of the difference between my work that gets called ARG and what doesn't is related to the MUD/MOO distinction (MUD=ARG, MOO="Extended Experience" roughly.) But that really just brings us back to Monello's "lots of experimental variety" comment that opened all of this, and only really brings to it the idea that ARG might just be a subset of that variety rather than the umbrella. Which begs what the umbrella concept is all over again, right? -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Wendy Despain Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 6:32 PM To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE:Copycatwarningoveralternative reality games) I for one have no problem with the ARG label or the hanging out with video game folks. Videogames are more and more interested in narrative these days, and I think the "gamey" parts of ARGs improve the player experience. And when I tell videogame devs that I also do ARGs they no longer stare blankly at me and think I just choked on something. I plan to continue to embrace it and love it and call it george. Wendy Despain quantumcontent.com On Thu, October 9, 2008 3:03 pm, Adam Martin wrote: > 2008/10/9 Brian Clark : >> So no need for an IGDA SIG anymore? > > The IGDA seems happy with supporting us so far :), and with what we do > (and it's relationship to games). IGDA's "games" remit seems to be set > very broad, generally speaking. > > They're even offering us money, just waiting for us to tell them what > we need it for... >_______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > Wendy Despain quantumcontent.com _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From dan at sixtostart.com Fri Oct 10 08:08:01 2008 From: dan at sixtostart.com (Dan Hon) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 13:08:01 +0100 Subject: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE:Copycatwarningoveralternativereality games) In-Reply-To: <1995153606-1223640414-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1775218880-@bxe155.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <59d86d5366095a5ee0e70f2bcdcaa61f.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com><007801c92aca$7b9bd3a0$6700a8c0@Tricorder> <1995153606-1223640414-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1775218880-@bxe155.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: One thing that's always confused me is this whole "alternate parallel universe" concept. Can't we just say that these games are fiction? We don't get hung up on all movies being in alternate parallel universes, or all books doing that as well. Y'know: it's a story. Some things are made up. -- Dan Hon, CEO, Six to Start m: +44 7870 600 828 t: +44 33 3340 7490, f: +44 33 3340 7494 On 10 Oct 2008, at 13:06, Jason Chrest wrote: > Interactive Cross-Media Games in Alternate Parallel Universes run by > deviants!! > > ICMGAPURBD SIG > > I like the length! > > ICMG though could be a fair representation of the majority of games > I have followed in the past. It's not as sexy of an acronym as arg, > but - /shrug. > > (Just wanted to toss my two dusty pennies into the ring and hope I > didn't miss good emails lol) > > Jason Chrest > Aporia Cross-Media Entertainment, LLC. > http://news.aporiacme.com > Cell:(662)251-9312 > jason at aporiacme.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Brian Clark" > > Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 07:22:29 > To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' > Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete > (RE:Copycatwarningoveralternative > reality games) > > > "I plan to continue to embrace it and love it and call it george." > > I hope no one took my Swiftian arguments too seriously yesterday: I > was just > being overly-provocative to see what oozes out if we pick the scab > off. Plus > Monello gave me $5 (but I also had to eat a bug.) > > If I had to give my serious opinion, though, it is a variant of > Adam's: ARG > was always a label, not a genre not a media not an art form. It was > a label > applied by the fan community to describe SOME of what we do, but not > ALL of > what we do. Internally, as a lab and studio, we see far less > distinction > between our projects, but then we essentially study digital human > interaction (so that's fine). As a creator, the label is useful if it > provides some expectation of the experience the audience might have, > so I > find myself using "ARGish" far more than I use "ARG". > > If I had to pick a hill to plant my flag on, the closest match would > be > Experience Design of the post-Shedroff variety. I think Adam hit > another key > point though, which is the general sense of d?j? vu on definitions > to the > 1990s and MUD/MOO/MUSH, a stable triad of different definitions and > goals > for something very similar. I've always had a nagging suspicion that > these > same definitions apply here as well ... that part of the difference > between > my work that gets called ARG and what doesn't is related to the MUD/ > MOO > distinction (MUD=ARG, MOO="Extended Experience" roughly.) > > But that really just brings us back to Monello's "lots of experimental > variety" comment that opened all of this, and only really brings to > it the > idea that ARG might just be a subset of that variety rather than the > umbrella. > > Which begs what the umbrella concept is all over again, right? > > > -----Original Message----- > From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org > ] On > Behalf Of Wendy Despain > Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 6:32 PM > To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG > Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete > (RE:Copycatwarningoveralternative > reality games) > > I for one have no problem with the ARG label or the hanging out with > video game folks. Videogames are more and more interested in narrative > these days, and I think the "gamey" parts of ARGs improve the player > experience. > > And when I tell videogame devs that I also do ARGs they no longer > stare blankly at me and think I just choked on something. > > I plan to continue to embrace it and love it and call it george. > > Wendy Despain > quantumcontent.com > > > On Thu, October 9, 2008 3:03 pm, Adam Martin wrote: >> 2008/10/9 Brian Clark : >>> So no need for an IGDA SIG anymore? >> >> The IGDA seems happy with supporting us so far :), and with what we >> do >> (and it's relationship to games). IGDA's "games" remit seems to be >> set >> very broad, generally speaking. >> >> They're even offering us money, just waiting for us to tell them what >> we need it for... >> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >> > > > Wendy Despain > quantumcontent.com > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From debfuller at gmail.com Fri Oct 10 08:10:12 2008 From: debfuller at gmail.com (Deb Fuller) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 08:10:12 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE:Copycatwarningoveralternativereality games) In-Reply-To: References: <59d86d5366095a5ee0e70f2bcdcaa61f.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> <007801c92aca$7b9bd3a0$6700a8c0@Tricorder> <1995153606-1223640414-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1775218880-@bxe155.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 8:08 AM, Dan Hon wrote: > One thing that's always confused me is this whole "alternate parallel > universe" concept. Can't we just say that these games are fiction? We don't > get hung up on all movies being in alternate parallel universes, or all > books doing that as well. Y'know: it's a story. Some things are made up. I think part of my childhood just died. ;) Deb From a.r.nakama at gmail.com Fri Oct 10 09:02:18 2008 From: a.r.nakama at gmail.com (A Nakama) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 09:02:18 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE:Copycatwarningoveralternativereality games) In-Reply-To: References: <59d86d5366095a5ee0e70f2bcdcaa61f.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> <007801c92aca$7b9bd3a0$6700a8c0@Tricorder> <1995153606-1223640414-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1775218880-@bxe155.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: But all fiction creates an alternate parallel universe while you're engaging with it... In your brain! To engage your question the way you meant it, though, I think the AR part of ARG is what draws a lot of people to these things--it's what drew me--but for those of us who see it as a medium, ARG is just a label (with the AR essentially meaningless, what the other Adam was getting at) that applies to a medium/toolset that we draw upon to tell certain stories. Some of them masquerade is "true" within everyday reality, and some of them don't (actually, most of the high-profile ones don't seem to these days--different topic: AR in an ARG is a mark of amateur work?). ~ Adam Nakama On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 8:08 AM, Dan Hon wrote: > One thing that's always confused me is this whole "alternate parallel > universe" concept. Can't we just say that these games are fiction? We don't > get hung up on all movies being in alternate parallel universes, or all > books doing that as well. Y'know: it's a story. Some things are made up. > > -- > Dan Hon, CEO, Six to Start > m: +44 7870 600 828 > t: +44 33 3340 7490, f: +44 33 3340 7494 > > > > > On 10 Oct 2008, at 13:06, Jason Chrest wrote: > > Interactive Cross-Media Games in Alternate Parallel Universes run by >> deviants!! >> >> ICMGAPURBD SIG >> >> I like the length! >> >> ICMG though could be a fair representation of the majority of games I have >> followed in the past. It's not as sexy of an acronym as arg, but - /shrug. >> >> (Just wanted to toss my two dusty pennies into the ring and hope I didn't >> miss good emails lol) >> >> Jason Chrest >> Aporia Cross-Media Entertainment, LLC. >> http://news.aporiacme.com >> Cell:(662)251-9312 >> jason at aporiacme.com >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: "Brian Clark" >> >> Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 07:22:29 >> To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG' >> Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete >> (RE:Copycatwarningoveralternative >> reality games) >> >> >> "I plan to continue to embrace it and love it and call it george." >> >> I hope no one took my Swiftian arguments too seriously yesterday: I was >> just >> being overly-provocative to see what oozes out if we pick the scab off. >> Plus >> Monello gave me $5 (but I also had to eat a bug.) >> >> If I had to give my serious opinion, though, it is a variant of Adam's: >> ARG >> was always a label, not a genre not a media not an art form. It was a >> label >> applied by the fan community to describe SOME of what we do, but not ALL >> of >> what we do. Internally, as a lab and studio, we see far less distinction >> between our projects, but then we essentially study digital human >> interaction (so that's fine). As a creator, the label is useful if it >> provides some expectation of the experience the audience might have, so I >> find myself using "ARGish" far more than I use "ARG". >> >> If I had to pick a hill to plant my flag on, the closest match would be >> Experience Design of the post-Shedroff variety. I think Adam hit another >> key >> point though, which is the general sense of d?j? vu on definitions to the >> 1990s and MUD/MOO/MUSH, a stable triad of different definitions and goals >> for something very similar. I've always had a nagging suspicion that these >> same definitions apply here as well ... that part of the difference >> between >> my work that gets called ARG and what doesn't is related to the MUD/MOO >> distinction (MUD=ARG, MOO="Extended Experience" roughly.) >> >> But that really just brings us back to Monello's "lots of experimental >> variety" comment that opened all of this, and only really brings to it the >> idea that ARG might just be a subset of that variety rather than the >> umbrella. >> >> Which begs what the umbrella concept is all over again, right? >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] >> On >> Behalf Of Wendy Despain >> Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 6:32 PM >> To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG >> Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete >> (RE:Copycatwarningoveralternative >> reality games) >> >> I for one have no problem with the ARG label or the hanging out with >> video game folks. Videogames are more and more interested in narrative >> these days, and I think the "gamey" parts of ARGs improve the player >> experience. >> >> And when I tell videogame devs that I also do ARGs they no longer >> stare blankly at me and think I just choked on something. >> >> I plan to continue to embrace it and love it and call it george. >> >> Wendy Despain >> quantumcontent.com >> >> >> On Thu, October 9, 2008 3:03 pm, Adam Martin wrote: >> >>> 2008/10/9 Brian Clark : >>> >>>> So no need for an IGDA SIG anymore? >>>> >>> >>> The IGDA seems happy with supporting us so far :), and with what we do >>> (and it's relationship to games). IGDA's "games" remit seems to be set >>> very broad, generally speaking. >>> >>> They're even offering us money, just waiting for us to tell them what >>> we need it for... >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ARG_Discuss mailing list >>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >>> >>> >> >> Wendy Despain >> quantumcontent.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >> > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > From me at addlepated.net Fri Oct 10 11:59:09 2008 From: me at addlepated.net (D. Cook) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 10:59:09 -0500 Subject: [arg_discuss] Branded entertainment article Message-ID: <527020FF-A0DB-4A41-93BC-A2E46C8B1289@addlepated.net> I thought this article from NY Mag was very interesting and has a lot of parallels not only for sponsored ARGs (don't beat the audience over the head with your sponsor), but for grassroots as well (TINAG). http://nymag.com/news/features/51014/ From mmonello at campfirenyc.com Mon Oct 13 16:20:35 2008 From: mmonello at campfirenyc.com (Mike Monello) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 13:20:35 -0700 Subject: [arg_discuss] The Dead Legacy piece (was Re: we are obsolete (RE: Copycatwarningoveralternative reality games) In-Reply-To: <106548320810091726s700a2d7ekd86ed4a8705dcd8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: This brings up an interesting thread - has there been any example of an ARG that has left behind a "dead" piece of media that works completely on it's own, with no knowledge of the activity that produced it or any need for nostalgia to carry it through? Most ARGs leave bits and pieces that have been assembled on websites or blogs, but I find all of those truly unsatisfactory as a stand alone experience. Blair Witch wasn't an ARG, but as a cross media experience each of the pieces was designed to work individually as well as fit within the larger whole. The movie, TV documentary, book, comics, PC games etc. all functioned on their own terms individually but combined to tell a larger story. The website, which was truly interactive (not just in a push the button click the link way) was also it's own experience but helped thread the whole thing together. At the end of the day, there isn't really even a legacy piece on Blair Witch that captured everything, although I do have an amazing notebook stuffed full of fan-created content, stories, artwork, etc. that, if published might be an interesting attempt at one. I haven't read it, but I imagine Cathy's Book works on it's own terms outside the ARG experience, but that was the starting point and not a legacy piece. Brian, is Eldritch working towards a legacy piece that stands outside the experience? Best, Mike On 10/9/08 8:26 PM, "Will Emigh" wrote: We always called them Multiplayer Novels for a similar reason. It's a participatory process (multiplayer) that produces something "dead" (novel). Of course, that has its own problems, not least of which is an unpronounceable acronym. -- Will On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 3:09 PM, Brian Clark wrote: > Now we're getting somewhere, Gupfee. I take back everything I said about > agreeing with Monello, he's completely wrong. > > We don't care about the painting at all. That's what makes us difference. > We > do care about the act of painting ... the painting is mere documentation. > > I can point to the Art of the Heist, but we all agree is a documentation of > something else, and this documentation is "dead" rather "living". > > The painting and the book are "dead" as well. What are the words we use to > describing other living processes? > > Improv? Open Source? Collaborative? > > It is the introduction of time and control into all those dead media that > makes us difference. > > I move we change the name "No Longer Dead Media". > > Next problem ... global economic crisis! Solve as an ARG community crisis > problem! Discuss! > > Brian > > -----Original Message----- > From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] > On > Behalf Of Gupfee > Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 3:02 PM > To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG > Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE: > Copycatwarningoveralternative reality games) > > On a more serious note, after hanging out w/Lance at DIY Days, I've been > thinking of this kind of stuff as "Open Source Media". > > Marie > > On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 2:58 PM, Brian Clark wrote: > > > Hmm, I kind of like Steve's. I've been thinking about "Shows Hinged in > > Technology" but others in my office think "Simple Live Ulterior Stories" > > will close a lot more phat ad contracts! > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] > > On > > Behalf Of Andrea Phillips > > Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 2:09 PM > > To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG > > Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE: Copycat > > warningoveralternative reality games) > > > > On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 2:04 PM, Steve Peters wrote: > > > At this point, we've been referring to them as Participatory > > Entertainment > > > Experiences... > > > > > > > Wow, and I didn't think we could come up with a worse acronym if we'd > > tried! > > > > > > -- > > Andrea Phillips > > http://www.deusexmachinatio.com > > Words * Culture * Interaction > > _______________________________________________ > > ARG_Discuss mailing list > > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > > > _______________________________________________ > > ARG_Discuss mailing list > > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss --- Mike Monello Partner, Campfire http://www.campfirenyc.com From mmonello at campfirenyc.com Mon Oct 13 16:26:21 2008 From: mmonello at campfirenyc.com (Mike Monello) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 13:26:21 -0700 Subject: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE:Copycatwarningoveralternative reality games) In-Reply-To: <59d86d5366095a5ee0e70f2bcdcaa61f.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> Message-ID: I recently downloaded Braid because it is receiving extremely high praise for it's complex narrative. I'm about halfway through and I do think it is one of the more sophisticated marriages of video game and narrative, especially in that the player's "powers" and actions in the game intrinsically relate and expand upon narrative. We'll see if it holds up to the end, I guess. But even there, the narrative gives the game a "literary" feel, rather than being a unique narrative experience that you couldn't have in any other medium. It's closer, but that nut still needs to be cracked! -Mike On 10/9/08 6:32 PM, "Wendy Despain" wrote: I for one have no problem with the ARG label or the hanging out with video game folks. Videogames are more and more interested in narrative these days, and I think the "gamey" parts of ARGs improve the player experience. And when I tell videogame devs that I also do ARGs they no longer stare blankly at me and think I just choked on something. I plan to continue to embrace it and love it and call it george. --- Mike Monello Partner, Campfire http://www.campfirenyc.com From btradish at earthlink.net Mon Oct 13 17:33:00 2008 From: btradish at earthlink.net (John Evans) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 17:33:00 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE:Copycatwarningoveralternative reality games) Message-ID: <13959295.1223933580983.JavaMail.root@elwamui-ovcar.atl.sa.earthlink.net> >From: Mike Monello > >I recently downloaded Braid because it is receiving extremely high praise for it's complex narrative. I'm about halfway through and I do think it is one of the more sophisticated marriages of video game and narrative, especially in that the player's "powers" and actions in the game intrinsically relate and expand upon narrative. We'll see if it holds up to the end, I guess. I thought it was a good try, but the presentation was kind of lacking. (Chunks of text that you had to stop playing to read.) >But even there, the narrative gives the game a "literary" feel, rather than being a unique narrative experience that you couldn't have in any other medium. It's closer, but that nut still needs to be cracked! I just attended an Indie Games Panel, which touched on all sorts of game development issues. One of the the points I came away with was that in order for games to reach their potential as art, they have to draw upon the unique features of games...rather than just being a bunch of linear cutscenes interrupted by shooting. So, with that in mind, I think ARGs have the potential to provide really interesting gaming experiences...Although, some of the people doing them appear more interested in a new kind of storytelling. (I'm not saying one is better than the other, but personally I'm really interested in games!) I would say something like World Without Oil is closer to the game side of things, although perhaps it's more of a collaborative- writing-organized-and-enabled-by-social-networking sort of thing. (Admittedly, the "line" is quite blurry, if it exists at all. And I didn't actually participate in WWO, so I may be off base.) Also, Superstruct is offering explicit rewards with its scoring and badges. So, maybe other people like this game-ish idea. -- John Evans Chaoseed Software - http://chaoseed.com From andrhia at gmail.com Tue Oct 14 11:17:20 2008 From: andrhia at gmail.com (Andrea Phillips) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 11:17:20 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Formal SIG Chat, er, Now? Message-ID: <5c799fd60810140817h22f11982ta7a4bdd07d38129a@mail.gmail.com> Argh, and all that. We're supposed ot be having a formal SIG chat starting... half an hour ago, but I didn't send out the reminder yesterday, and I'm not in a great position to moderate now. ...it's OK, you can dock my paycheck, I understand... For anyone wanting to hop onto chat now, instructions are here: http://www.igda.org/wiki/Alternate_Reality_Games_SIG/IRC_Chats/IRC_Instructions -- Andrea Phillips http://www.deusexmachinatio.com Words * Culture * Interaction From bclark at gmdstudios.com Fri Oct 17 10:35:53 2008 From: bclark at gmdstudios.com (Brian Clark) Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 10:35:53 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] The Dead Legacy piece (was Re: we are obsolete (RE: Copycatwarningoveralternative reality games) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <006d01c93065$a956fbd0$6700a8c0@Tricorder> Mike, this was such a fascinating post that I needed a few days to ruminate on it. I want to assault the thought from two different directions, one theoretical and one practical. At the Crossover retreat in 2002, the most challenging notion I encountered was the gulf between performance and documentary. There were many artists there that view many of the "dead media" as "mere documentation" ... they wave their hand and declare it irrelevant to the conversation of art. In that view, what the actors do on the set is art, but what the cameraman does to capture it on film is "mere documentation". This wasn't a viewpoint I liked to hear, as it seemed to marginalize much of what I find fascinating. Conversely, in my life as a recording engineer making albums, that was exactly the viewpoint I had: my job wasn't to "fix it in post" or to "sample replace those drums" -- it was to "capture a performance". My view in that world was "if the trap set sounds good in the room, it will sound good on tape, so let's start tuning those drum heads, bucko!" In that viewpoint, if I did my job right, my involvement was transparent ... you would feel like you were sitting in the room with the band witnessing a single performance (even if it was cobbled together through elaborate multi-tracking and flying punch ins.) >From that vantage point, Mike, MOST of the media elements of "Blair Witch" are "mere documentation" -- an attempt to put us in the woods with the performers where the real "art" took place. Those things that aren't "mere documentation" might be described as "mere marketing of mere documentation" (for example, the Blair Witch theme park ride in Japan, natch.) Which brings us to what we're trying to do with Eldritch: the art, the performance, is something that happens with the audience. They are the ones in the woods making the art, and my goal is to document that process. For me, that means starting to think about the "live ARG" as collaborative authoring through performance. Like a concert or a stage performance, the best I'll ever accomplish is "mere documentation" of that transient moment of collaborative artistic creation. At its most ambitious, that will look like graphic novels staring the players (rather than my characters) ... and graphic novels are a nice bridge to other forms of media (for example, a graphic novel isn't very different from storyboards for a movie.) So all of that "mere documentation" is, in essence, "based on actual events" -- those actual events just aren't "natural" events. So I'm not sure I would describe it as a goal to create legacy pieces: the better metaphor might be that when players of Eldritch do something, I'm constantly thinking about how that might be conveyed in a graphic novel, or how that might look in a television show. The Eldritch experience is the art, and the art exists to fuel the "mere documentation" of those experiences. Sorry to dive so deep into the conceptual well on that one, as I totally get the "crossmedia perspective" that you're using to describe Blair. For me, it is a little different though. People who encounter later layers of Eldritch won't be experiencing what the participants of Eldritch experienced, anymore than watching a video of a rock concert is the same thing as going to that same show. Brian -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Mike Monello Sent: Monday, October 13, 2008 4:21 PM To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG Subject: [arg_discuss] The Dead Legacy piece (was Re: we are obsolete (RE: Copycatwarningoveralternative reality games) This brings up an interesting thread - has there been any example of an ARG that has left behind a "dead" piece of media that works completely on it's own, with no knowledge of the activity that produced it or any need for nostalgia to carry it through? Most ARGs leave bits and pieces that have been assembled on websites or blogs, but I find all of those truly unsatisfactory as a stand alone experience. Blair Witch wasn't an ARG, but as a cross media experience each of the pieces was designed to work individually as well as fit within the larger whole. The movie, TV documentary, book, comics, PC games etc. all functioned on their own terms individually but combined to tell a larger story. The website, which was truly interactive (not just in a push the button click the link way) was also it's own experience but helped thread the whole thing together. At the end of the day, there isn't really even a legacy piece on Blair Witch that captured everything, although I do have an amazing notebook stuffed full of fan-created content, stories, artwork, etc. that, if published might be an interesting attempt at one. I haven't read it, but I imagine Cathy's Book works on it's own terms outside the ARG experience, but that was the starting point and not a legacy piece. Brian, is Eldritch working towards a legacy piece that stands outside the experience? Best, Mike On 10/9/08 8:26 PM, "Will Emigh" wrote: We always called them Multiplayer Novels for a similar reason. It's a participatory process (multiplayer) that produces something "dead" (novel). Of course, that has its own problems, not least of which is an unpronounceable acronym. -- Will On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 3:09 PM, Brian Clark wrote: > Now we're getting somewhere, Gupfee. I take back everything I said about > agreeing with Monello, he's completely wrong. > > We don't care about the painting at all. That's what makes us difference. > We > do care about the act of painting ... the painting is mere documentation. > > I can point to the Art of the Heist, but we all agree is a documentation of > something else, and this documentation is "dead" rather "living". > > The painting and the book are "dead" as well. What are the words we use to > describing other living processes? > > Improv? Open Source? Collaborative? > > It is the introduction of time and control into all those dead media that > makes us difference. > > I move we change the name "No Longer Dead Media". > > Next problem ... global economic crisis! Solve as an ARG community crisis > problem! Discuss! > > Brian > > -----Original Message----- > From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] > On > Behalf Of Gupfee > Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 3:02 PM > To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG > Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE: > Copycatwarningoveralternative reality games) > > On a more serious note, after hanging out w/Lance at DIY Days, I've been > thinking of this kind of stuff as "Open Source Media". > > Marie > > On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 2:58 PM, Brian Clark wrote: > > > Hmm, I kind of like Steve's. I've been thinking about "Shows Hinged in > > Technology" but others in my office think "Simple Live Ulterior Stories" > > will close a lot more phat ad contracts! > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] > > On > > Behalf Of Andrea Phillips > > Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 2:09 PM > > To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG > > Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] we are obsolete (RE: Copycat > > warningoveralternative reality games) > > > > On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 2:04 PM, Steve Peters wrote: > > > At this point, we've been referring to them as Participatory > > Entertainment > > > Experiences... > > > > > > > Wow, and I didn't think we could come up with a worse acronym if we'd > > tried! > > > > > > -- > > Andrea Phillips > > http://www.deusexmachinatio.com > > Words * Culture * Interaction > > _______________________________________________ > > ARG_Discuss mailing list > > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > > > _______________________________________________ > > ARG_Discuss mailing list > > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss --- Mike Monello Partner, Campfire http://www.campfirenyc.com _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From adrian at mssv.net Mon Oct 20 18:07:53 2008 From: adrian at mssv.net (Adrian Hon) Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 23:07:53 +0100 Subject: [arg_discuss] ARGs in Charity and Education conference Message-ID: <52a6f3110810201507v722f2ce6medff51540bb8286a@mail.gmail.com> Hi all, I'd like to announce 'ARGs in Charity and Education', a conference being held in London on Friday 5th December: http://conference.operationsleepercell.com Unsurprisingly, it's about the use of ARGs to raise money and awareness for charities, and for educational purposes. We have a range of speakers from the BBC, Channel 4, Oil Productions, Six to Start, Leicester University, Open University and more, so commissioners, developers, academics and educators are all represented. Channel 4 have kindly donated a very nice venue at their headquarters for the conference, and all profits will be going to Cancer Research UK. It'll be a great opportunity to learn about 'serious' applications of ARGs, network with fellow developers, and also find out what the two biggest commissioners of ARGs in the UK have planned for the future. Hope to see some of you there! Adrian Hon -- Adrian Hon - mssv.net Chief Creative at Six to Start - www.sixtostart.com Founder of Let's Change the Game - www.letschangethegame.org From Craig.Harkness at port.ac.uk Wed Oct 22 04:33:12 2008 From: Craig.Harkness at port.ac.uk (Craig Harkness) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 09:33:12 +0100 Subject: [arg_discuss] ARG_Discuss Digest, Vol 38, Issue 15 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48FEF358.6679.00AB.0@port.ac.uk> Thanks for that Adrian, I have no doubt this will be a incredibly useful oppertunity to see what is going on around the uk. >>> 21/10/2008 15:00 >>> Send ARG_Discuss mailing list submissions to arg_discuss at igda.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to arg_discuss-request at igda.org You can reach the person managing the list at arg_discuss-owner at igda.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of ARG_Discuss digest..." Today's Topics: 1. ARGs in Charity and Education conference (Adrian Hon) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 23:07:53 +0100 From: "Adrian Hon" Subject: [arg_discuss] ARGs in Charity and Education conference To: "Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG" Message-ID: <52a6f3110810201507v722f2ce6medff51540bb8286a at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi all, I'd like to announce 'ARGs in Charity and Education', a conference being held in London on Friday 5th December: http://conference.operationsleepercell.com Unsurprisingly, it's about the use of ARGs to raise money and awareness for charities, and for educational purposes. We have a range of speakers from the BBC, Channel 4, Oil Productions, Six to Start, Leicester University, Open University and more, so commissioners, developers, academics and educators are all represented. Channel 4 have kindly donated a very nice venue at their headquarters for the conference, and all profits will be going to Cancer Research UK. It'll be a great opportunity to learn about 'serious' applications of ARGs, network with fellow developers, and also find out what the two biggest commissioners of ARGs in the UK have planned for the future. Hope to see some of you there! Adrian Hon -- Adrian Hon - mssv.net Chief Creative at Six to Start - www.sixtostart.com Founder of Let's Change the Game - www.letschangethegame.org ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss End of ARG_Discuss Digest, Vol 38, Issue 15 ******************************************* From Markus.Montola at uta.fi Wed Oct 22 09:39:27 2008 From: Markus.Montola at uta.fi (Markus Montola) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 16:39:27 +0300 Subject: [arg_discuss] The Book they had to write in that ARG In-Reply-To: <20080715035141.IYLZ10493.nschwotgx03p.mx.bigpond.com@HPPIE> References: <20080715035141.IYLZ10493.nschwotgx03p.mx.bigpond.com@HPPIE> Message-ID: <20081022163927.18326xr3p3uoafk8@imp2.uta.fi> Hi everyone, Remembered that someone (maybe Christy) at her lecture (maybe at Nokia?) sometime (2007?) told an anecdote of an ARG where players had to actually write an actual novel and publish it in something like lulu.com to overcome the challenge. Anyone else heard about this? What was the story again? Thanks! :-) - Markus Montola PS. Maybe old news, but Sean Stewart & al are apparently publishing a sequel to Cathy's Book. From naomi.alderman at gmail.com Wed Oct 22 09:45:15 2008 From: naomi.alderman at gmail.com (Naomi Alderman) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 14:45:15 +0100 Subject: [arg_discuss] The Book they had to write in that ARG In-Reply-To: <20081022163927.18326xr3p3uoafk8@imp2.uta.fi> References: <20080715035141.IYLZ10493.nschwotgx03p.mx.bigpond.com@HPPIE> <20081022163927.18326xr3p3uoafk8@imp2.uta.fi> Message-ID: That was probably Perplex City (unless someone else has done it since then). When we said that one of the characters, Violet, needed to be a credentialled author to access the Perplex City library, the players got together to produce a book so she could be credited as "editor". http://perplexcitywiki.com/wiki/Tales_From_Earth Review in the in-game newspaper, The Sentinel: http://wayback.perplexcitystories.com/?url=www.perplexcitysentinel.com/archives/2006/03/earth_anthology.html -- Naomi On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 2:39 PM, Markus Montola wrote: > Hi everyone, > > Remembered that someone (maybe Christy) at her lecture (maybe at Nokia?) > sometime (2007?) told an anecdote of an ARG where players had to actually > write an actual novel and publish it in something like lulu.com to > overcome the challenge. > > Anyone else heard about this? What was the story again? > > > Thanks! :-) > > - Markus Montola > > PS. Maybe old news, but Sean Stewart & al are apparently publishing a > sequel to Cathy's Book. > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > From morbus at disobey.com Wed Oct 22 09:45:59 2008 From: morbus at disobey.com (Morbus Iff) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 09:45:59 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] The Book they had to write in that ARG In-Reply-To: <20081022163927.18326xr3p3uoafk8@imp2.uta.fi> References: <20080715035141.IYLZ10493.nschwotgx03p.mx.bigpond.com@HPPIE> <20081022163927.18326xr3p3uoafk8@imp2.uta.fi> Message-ID: <48FF2E97.6030204@disobey.com> > Remembered that someone (maybe Christy) at her lecture (maybe at > Nokia?) sometime (2007?) told an anecdote of an ARG where players had > to actually write an actual novel and publish it in something like > lulu.com to overcome the challenge. http://perplexcitywiki.com/wiki/Tales_From_Earth http://www.lulu.com/content/225745 > PS. Maybe old news, but Sean Stewart & al > are apparently publishing a sequel to Cathy's Book. Came out two or three months ago, if I recall. -- Morbus Iff ( for safety's sake, don't humiliate me ) Technical: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/au/779 Enjoy: http://www.disobey.com/ and http://www.videounderbelly.com/ aim: akaMorbus / skype: morbusiff / icq: 2927491 / jabber.org: morbus From andrhia at gmail.com Wed Oct 22 09:48:01 2008 From: andrhia at gmail.com (Andrea Phillips) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 09:48:01 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] The Book they had to write in that ARG In-Reply-To: <48FF2E97.6030204@disobey.com> References: <20080715035141.IYLZ10493.nschwotgx03p.mx.bigpond.com@HPPIE> <20081022163927.18326xr3p3uoafk8@imp2.uta.fi> <48FF2E97.6030204@disobey.com> Message-ID: <5c799fd60810220648s7a33a472m3e0ef2994e8f245c@mail.gmail.com> >> PS. Maybe old news, but Sean Stewart & al > >> are apparently publishing a sequel to Cathy's Book. > > Came out two or three months ago, if I recall. > The sequel is Cathy's Key, and it's been out for quite some time. o buy a copy now! It makes a lovely gift! (Full disclosure: I got to write one of the related websites ;) -- Andrea Phillips http://www.deusexmachinatio.com Words * Culture * Interaction From morbus at disobey.com Wed Oct 22 09:53:43 2008 From: morbus at disobey.com (Morbus Iff) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 09:53:43 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] The Book they had to write in that ARG In-Reply-To: <5c799fd60810220648s7a33a472m3e0ef2994e8f245c@mail.gmail.com> References: <20080715035141.IYLZ10493.nschwotgx03p.mx.bigpond.com@HPPIE> <20081022163927.18326xr3p3uoafk8@imp2.uta.fi> <48FF2E97.6030204@disobey.com> <5c799fd60810220648s7a33a472m3e0ef2994e8f245c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48FF3067.9030405@disobey.com> > The sequel is Cathy's Key, and it's been out for quite > some time. o buy a copy now! It makes a lovely gift! I already got one! Though, I haven't read it yet. But, yeah, I missed out on the physical clues from the first book, so made sure to preorder the second book. For the physical clues. Ayup. -- Morbus Iff ( flee at once -- all is discovered ) Technical: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/au/779 Enjoy: http://www.disobey.com/ and http://www.videounderbelly.com/ aim: akaMorbus / skype: morbusiff / icq: 2927491 / jabber.org: morbus From Markus.Montola at uta.fi Wed Oct 22 09:58:09 2008 From: Markus.Montola at uta.fi (Markus Montola) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 16:58:09 +0300 Subject: [arg_discuss] The Book they had to write in that ARG In-Reply-To: <48FF2E97.6030204@disobey.com> References: <20080715035141.IYLZ10493.nschwotgx03p.mx.bigpond.com@HPPIE> <20081022163927.18326xr3p3uoafk8@imp2.uta.fi> <48FF2E97.6030204@disobey.com> Message-ID: <20081022165809.13717h0bg9z0dwfk@imp2.uta.fi> Thanks for the book story pointers (to Naomi as well). Apparently I gotta get a better bookstore to Finland as well. :-) *goes back writing his own book...* - Markus >> Remembered that someone (maybe Christy) at her lecture (maybe at >> Nokia?) sometime (2007?) told an anecdote of an ARG where players >> had to actually write an actual novel and publish it in something >> like lulu.com to overcome the challenge. > > http://perplexcitywiki.com/wiki/Tales_From_Earth > http://www.lulu.com/content/225745 > >> PS. Maybe old news, but Sean Stewart & al >> are apparently publishing a sequel to Cathy's Book. > > Came out two or three months ago, if I recall. > > -- > Morbus Iff ( for safety's sake, don't humiliate me ) > Technical: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/au/779 > Enjoy: http://www.disobey.com/ and http://www.videounderbelly.com/ > aim: akaMorbus / skype: morbusiff / icq: 2927491 / jabber.org: morbus > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > - Markus NEW Mobile Phone: +358 50 482 3873 From varineq at gmail.com Wed Oct 22 11:02:03 2008 From: varineq at gmail.com (Michelle Senderhauf) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 10:02:03 -0500 Subject: [arg_discuss] The Book they had to write in that ARG In-Reply-To: <20081022165809.13717h0bg9z0dwfk@imp2.uta.fi> References: <20080715035141.IYLZ10493.nschwotgx03p.mx.bigpond.com@HPPIE> <20081022163927.18326xr3p3uoafk8@imp2.uta.fi> <48FF2E97.6030204@disobey.com> <20081022165809.13717h0bg9z0dwfk@imp2.uta.fi> Message-ID: <45cb08290810220802p2011fa9ve6353b0fd4653161@mail.gmail.com> > PS. Maybe old news, but Sean Stewart & al > are apparently publishing a sequel to Cathy's Book. > On a slightly related note, I saw the hardcover version of Cathy's Book on clearance for $5 at Barnes & Noble. I picked them all up, preparing to buy them all... until my six-year-old said - "Mommy, why do you need 5 copies of the same book?" (damn that logical kid!) So if you haven't picked up the book yet, take a look in the clearance section! Michelle Senderhauf From baroblik at videotron.ca Wed Oct 22 12:48:31 2008 From: baroblik at videotron.ca (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Genevi=E8ve_Cardin?=) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 12:48:31 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] (no subject) In-Reply-To: <006d01c93065$a956fbd0$6700a8c0@Tricorder> References: <006d01c93065$a956fbd0$6700a8c0@Tricorder> Message-ID: Just want to share this link, that a lot of you may already know. It might start an interesting discussion. http://www.moviemaker.com/directing/article/jim_jarmusch_2972/ Just replace ? Film / Film making ? by ARG or crossmedia storytelling or other expression of you choice. P.S. Love the last part of Rule #2 ... Genevi?ve Cardin Baroblik Productions Inc. ARG / Cross-media experiences Web, Movies & TV Cell : (514) 924-TOUI (8684) baroblik at videotron.ca From andrhia at gmail.com Wed Oct 22 13:18:33 2008 From: andrhia at gmail.com (Andrea Phillips) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 13:18:33 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Reminder: Informal Chat Tomorrow! Message-ID: <5c799fd60810221018s535f2bccs50721c99044bc709@mail.gmail.com> Holy smokes, I remembered to send out an announcement! Clearly this means the world is coming to an end, right? But excepting the event of frogs falling from the sky and seas boiling over in blood, we WILL have an informal SIG IRC chat tomorrow. The time on the calendar is set for 15:00 Eastern US; 10:00 UK; 18:00 Pacific US; 5:00 Friday morning in Sydney. Instructions on how to get on IRC on the wiki here: http://www.igda.org/wiki/Alternate_Reality_Games_SIG/IRC_Chats/IRC_Instructions Hope to see you there! -- Andrea Phillips http://www.deusexmachinatio.com Words * Culture * Interaction From wendeth at wendydespain.com Wed Oct 22 16:49:38 2008 From: wendeth at wendydespain.com (Wendy Despain) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 13:49:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [arg_discuss] Reminder: Informal Chat Tomorrow! In-Reply-To: <5c799fd60810221018s535f2bccs50721c99044bc709@mail.gmail.com> References: <5c799fd60810221018s535f2bccs50721c99044bc709@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I'm confused. Are the Eastern and Pacific times swapped? WD On Wed, October 22, 2008 10:18 am, Andrea Phillips wrote: > Holy smokes, I remembered to send out an announcement! Clearly this > means the world is coming to an end, right? But excepting the event of > frogs falling from the sky and seas boiling over in blood, we WILL > have an informal SIG IRC chat tomorrow. > > The time on the calendar is set for 15:00 Eastern US; 10:00 UK; 18:00 > Pacific US; 5:00 Friday morning in Sydney. > > Instructions on how to get on IRC on the wiki here: > http://www.igda.org/wiki/Alternate_Reality_Games_SIG/IRC_Chats/IRC_Instructions > > Hope to see you there! > > -- > Andrea Phillips > http://www.deusexmachinatio.com > Words * Culture * Interaction > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > Wendy Despain quantumcontent.com From andrhia at gmail.com Wed Oct 22 19:27:10 2008 From: andrhia at gmail.com (Andrea Phillips) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 19:27:10 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Reminder: Informal Chat Tomorrow! In-Reply-To: References: <5c799fd60810221018s535f2bccs50721c99044bc709@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5c799fd60810221627u4421d99agb4444bc05d0ab263@mail.gmail.com> ...oh, sure, just go on using your fancy ARITHMETIC on me. I actually copied and adjusted the times from an earlier email without sanity-checking them this time, so it's likely just the continuation of the same old dumb mistake. As per the calendar, definitely 3pm EST, which would make it NOON Pacific time and 9pm UK. Sorry about the mix-up. Maybe one of these days I'll actually get my act together. Sigh. On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 4:49 PM, Wendy Despain wrote: > I'm confused. Are the Eastern and Pacific times swapped? > > WD > > > On Wed, October 22, 2008 10:18 am, Andrea Phillips wrote: >> Holy smokes, I remembered to send out an announcement! Clearly this >> means the world is coming to an end, right? But excepting the event of >> frogs falling from the sky and seas boiling over in blood, we WILL >> have an informal SIG IRC chat tomorrow. >> >> The time on the calendar is set for 15:00 Eastern US; 10:00 UK; 18:00 >> Pacific US; 5:00 Friday morning in Sydney. >> >> Instructions on how to get on IRC on the wiki here: >> http://www.igda.org/wiki/Alternate_Reality_Games_SIG/IRC_Chats/IRC_Instructions >> >> Hope to see you there! >> >> -- >> Andrea Phillips >> http://www.deusexmachinatio.com >> Words * Culture * Interaction >> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >> > > > Wendy Despain > quantumcontent.com > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > -- Andrea Phillips http://www.deusexmachinatio.com Words * Culture * Interaction From jshulters at ascensionstudios.com Thu Oct 23 00:43:17 2008 From: jshulters at ascensionstudios.com (John Shulters) Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 21:43:17 -0700 Subject: [arg_discuss] Introductions Message-ID: <000301c934c9$de87c380$9b974a80$@com> Hi All, I make my living day-to-day running a freelance 3d visualization company called Ascension Studios. On the side, I create non-electronic games and have begun to dabble in Flash-based games and mods for adventure & shooter games. I have a long background in role-playing and video games, but didn't get into ARGs until 2002, beginning with some basic geocaching, and growing into custom designed adventures for many different audiences. The GDC Serious Games Summit in 2006 was a huge inspiration. I and a few partners have recently founded a new company, N2 Adventures, that produces commercial ARGs and related games based in the Seattle/Tacoma and Sacramento metro areas. I've participated in Perplex City, World Without Oil, Doritos the Quest, Traces of Hope, the 39 Clues, and the new LOST ARG. The new Wherigo builder/player has also been a recent passion. I look forward to some collaborative inspiration! john Shulters From erin at panttaja.com Mon Oct 27 13:12:33 2008 From: erin at panttaja.com (Erin Marie Panttaja) Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 10:12:33 -0700 Subject: [arg_discuss] Introductions Message-ID: <987BB99B-5ADA-4D52-98AF-51D0A8B38274@panttaja.com> Hello, I too was much inspired by the GDC Serious Games Summit in 2006. I was sad to see that conference stop. I'm an interaction designer and playwright who came to ARGs from the direction of serious games for training. I have always been fascinated by games: video games, board games, riddle trails, live action role playing, and puzzles. I like the idea of submersive gaming: games that bring themselves into and interact with reality in unexpected ways, and the use of theatricality and spectacle in games. I also like to think about ethics in both playing games and designing them. My background is in computer science; I got my start at the Media Lab, and have branched out from there. I've just moved to the Bay Area and am job hunting out here. If anyone has leads for full time or freelance work in ARGs or related areas, I would love to hear about them. -Erin EM Panttaja erin at panttaja.com 707 235 2422 http://web.mit.edu/~erinp From andrhia at gmail.com Wed Oct 29 11:29:49 2008 From: andrhia at gmail.com (Andrea Phillips) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 11:29:49 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Reminder: Informal SIG Chat on Thursday! Message-ID: <5c799fd60810290829i507b8c7ei7a9e9e014daa5e7c@mail.gmail.com> Looking at the SIG calendar, the next informal chat is set for 18:00 Eastern US and 21:00 Pacific US. I believe this week there is a daylight savings mismatch, so should be 12:00 noon in the U.K. and 9:00 on Friday morning in Sydney. Please correct if I have miscalculated; my arithmetic is legendarily bad. :) Instructions on how to get on IRC are here: http://www.igda.org/wiki/Alternate_Reality_Games_SIG/IRC_Chats/IRC_Instructions ...we're also past due for a formal chat; I keep scheduling them and then slipping on them myself. Any proposals on a good time for the next one? -- Andrea Phillips http://www.deusexmachinatio.com Words * Culture * Interaction From agent.lex at gmail.com Wed Oct 29 13:10:00 2008 From: agent.lex at gmail.com (Agent Lex) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 17:10:00 +0000 Subject: [arg_discuss] Reminder: Informal SIG Chat on Thursday! In-Reply-To: <5c799fd60810290829i507b8c7ei7a9e9e014daa5e7c@mail.gmail.com> References: <5c799fd60810290829i507b8c7ei7a9e9e014daa5e7c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <490898E8.3070106@gmail.com> You've done it again, Andrea! :P 1800 Eastern is 1500 Pacific, and due to mismatch it's 0100 UK. Not sure about Sydney time, but it's some time during the day on Friday. - Lex Andrea Phillips wrote: > Looking at the SIG calendar, the next informal chat is set for 18:00 > Eastern US and 21:00 Pacific US. I believe this week there is a > daylight savings mismatch, so should be 12:00 noon in the U.K. and > 9:00 on Friday morning in Sydney. > > Please correct if I have miscalculated; my arithmetic is legendarily bad. :) > > Instructions on how to get on IRC are here: > > http://www.igda.org/wiki/Alternate_Reality_Games_SIG/IRC_Chats/IRC_Instructions > > > > ...we're also past due for a formal chat; I keep scheduling them and > then slipping on them myself. Any proposals on a good time for the > next one? > > > From andrhia at gmail.com Wed Oct 29 13:13:46 2008 From: andrhia at gmail.com (Andrea Phillips) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 13:13:46 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Reminder: Informal SIG Chat on Thursday! In-Reply-To: <490898E8.3070106@gmail.com> References: <5c799fd60810290829i507b8c7ei7a9e9e014daa5e7c@mail.gmail.com> <490898E8.3070106@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5c799fd60810291013g219c700fx2426cd09b25bbe60@mail.gmail.com> ...does somebody else want to announce these? Pref. somebody who's getting more than five hours of sleep at night on a running basis. On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 1:10 PM, Agent Lex wrote: > You've done it again, Andrea! :P > > 1800 Eastern is 1500 Pacific, and due to mismatch it's 0100 UK. Not sure > about Sydney time, but it's some time during the day on Friday. > > - Lex > > Andrea Phillips wrote: >> >> Looking at the SIG calendar, the next informal chat is set for 18:00 >> Eastern US and 21:00 Pacific US. I believe this week there is a >> daylight savings mismatch, so should be 12:00 noon in the U.K. and >> 9:00 on Friday morning in Sydney. >> >> Please correct if I have miscalculated; my arithmetic is legendarily bad. >> :) >> >> Instructions on how to get on IRC are here: >> >> >> http://www.igda.org/wiki/Alternate_Reality_Games_SIG/IRC_Chats/IRC_Instructions >> >> >> >> ...we're also past due for a formal chat; I keep scheduling them and >> then slipping on them myself. Any proposals on a good time for the >> next one? >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > -- Andrea Phillips http://www.deusexmachinatio.com Words * Culture * Interaction From sjoerdwennekes at hotmail.com Wed Oct 29 13:27:18 2008 From: sjoerdwennekes at hotmail.com (Sjoerd Wennekes) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 18:27:18 +0100 Subject: [arg_discuss] Reminder: Informal SIG Chat on Thursday! In-Reply-To: <5c799fd60810291013g219c700fx2426cd09b25bbe60@mail.gmail.com> References: <5c799fd60810290829i507b8c7ei7a9e9e014daa5e7c@mail.gmail.com> <490898E8.3070106@gmail.com> <5c799fd60810291013g219c700fx2426cd09b25bbe60@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: And that would be 2:00 PM in eastern Europe... "Any proposals on a good time for the next one?" How about one that isn't in the middle of the night? :-) - I like my sheep! uh... sleep - > Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 13:13:46 -0400 > From: andrhia at gmail.com > To: arg_discuss at igda.org > Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] Reminder: Informal SIG Chat on Thursday! > > ...does somebody else want to announce these? Pref. somebody who's > getting more than five hours of sleep at night on a running basis. > > On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 1:10 PM, Agent Lex wrote: > > You've done it again, Andrea! :P > > > > 1800 Eastern is 1500 Pacific, and due to mismatch it's 0100 UK. Not sure > > about Sydney time, but it's some time during the day on Friday. > > > > - Lex > > > > Andrea Phillips wrote: > >> > >> Looking at the SIG calendar, the next informal chat is set for 18:00 > >> Eastern US and 21:00 Pacific US. I believe this week there is a > >> daylight savings mismatch, so should be 12:00 noon in the U.K. and > >> 9:00 on Friday morning in Sydney. > >> > >> Please correct if I have miscalculated; my arithmetic is legendarily bad. > >> :) > >> > >> Instructions on how to get on IRC are here: > >> > >> > >> http://www.igda.org/wiki/Alternate_Reality_Games_SIG/IRC_Chats/IRC_Instructions > >> > >> > >> > >> ...we're also past due for a formal chat; I keep scheduling them and > >> then slipping on them myself. Any proposals on a good time for the > >> next one? > >> > >> > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > ARG_Discuss mailing list > > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > > > > > -- > Andrea Phillips > http://www.deusexmachinatio.com > Words * Culture * Interaction > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ From andrhia at gmail.com Wed Oct 29 13:38:56 2008 From: andrhia at gmail.com (Andrea Phillips) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 13:38:56 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Reminder: Informal SIG Chat on Thursday! In-Reply-To: References: <5c799fd60810290829i507b8c7ei7a9e9e014daa5e7c@mail.gmail.com> <490898E8.3070106@gmail.com> <5c799fd60810291013g219c700fx2426cd09b25bbe60@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5c799fd60810291038g4a86acf8m4e329c042d7b7a65@mail.gmail.com> The informal chats cycle around the clock, getting 3 hours later each week, so these should be a normal time for you in another 2 or 3 weeks, Sjoerd. The formal chats are pretty well limited to when I can be around to run them, though. I'd gracefully delegate to somebody else, but we don't seem to be overflowing with volunteers just now, despite the less-than-stellar job I'm making of it lately. On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 1:27 PM, Sjoerd Wennekes wrote: > And that would be 2:00 PM in eastern Europe... > "Any proposals on a good time for the next one?" > How about one that isn't in the middle of the night? :-) > > - I like my sheep! uh... sleep - > > > >> Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 13:13:46 -0400 >> From: andrhia at gmail.com >> To: arg_discuss at igda.org >> Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] Reminder: Informal SIG Chat on Thursday! >> >> ...does somebody else want to announce these? Pref. somebody who's >> getting more than five hours of sleep at night on a running basis. >> >> On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 1:10 PM, Agent Lex wrote: >> > You've done it again, Andrea! :P >> > >> > 1800 Eastern is 1500 Pacific, and due to mismatch it's 0100 UK. Not sure >> > about Sydney time, but it's some time during the day on Friday. >> > >> > - Lex >> > >> > Andrea Phillips wrote: >> >> >> >> Looking at the SIG calendar, the next informal chat is set for 18:00 >> >> Eastern US and 21:00 Pacific US. I believe this week there is a >> >> daylight savings mismatch, so should be 12:00 noon in the U.K. and >> >> 9:00 on Friday morning in Sydney. >> >> >> >> Please correct if I have miscalculated; my arithmetic is legendarily bad. >> >> :) >> >> >> >> Instructions on how to get on IRC are here: >> >> >> >> >> >> http://www.igda.org/wiki/Alternate_Reality_Games_SIG/IRC_Chats/IRC_Instructions >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ...we're also past due for a formal chat; I keep scheduling them and >> >> then slipping on them myself. Any proposals on a good time for the >> >> next one? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > ARG_Discuss mailing list >> > ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Andrea Phillips >> http://www.deusexmachinatio.com >> Words * Culture * Interaction >> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > _________________________________________________________________ > Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! > http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > -- Andrea Phillips http://www.deusexmachinatio.com Words * Culture * Interaction From adrijackmarie at gmail.com Wed Oct 29 15:11:07 2008 From: adrijackmarie at gmail.com (Adrien MARIE) Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 20:11:07 +0100 Subject: [arg_discuss] Reminder: Informal SIG Chat on Thursday! In-Reply-To: <490898E8.3070106@gmail.com> References: <5c799fd60810290829i507b8c7ei7a9e9e014daa5e7c@mail.gmail.com> <490898E8.3070106@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7B5DF34C-6EEE-4933-AAE3-A9A101A73544@gmail.com> ;D On 29 Oct 2008, at 6:10, Agent Lex wrote: > You've done it again, Andrea! :P > > 1800 Eastern is 1500 Pacific, and due to mismatch it's 0100 UK. Not > sure about Sydney time, but it's some time during the day on Friday. > > - Lex > > Andrea Phillips wrote: >> Looking at the SIG calendar, the next informal chat is set for 18:00 >> Eastern US and 21:00 Pacific US. I believe this week there is a >> daylight savings mismatch, so should be 12:00 noon in the U.K. and >> 9:00 on Friday morning in Sydney. >> >> Please correct if I have miscalculated; my arithmetic is >> legendarily bad. :) >> >> Instructions on how to get on IRC are here: >> >> http://www.igda.org/wiki/Alternate_Reality_Games_SIG/IRC_Chats/IRC_Instructions >> >> >> >> ...we're also past due for a formal chat; I keep scheduling them and >> then slipping on them myself. Any proposals on a good time for the >> next one? >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From adam.m.s.martin at googlemail.com Thu Oct 30 06:52:58 2008 From: adam.m.s.martin at googlemail.com (Adam Martin) Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 10:52:58 +0000 Subject: [arg_discuss] Reminder: Informal SIG Chat on Thursday! In-Reply-To: <5c799fd60810290829i507b8c7ei7a9e9e014daa5e7c@mail.gmail.com> References: <5c799fd60810290829i507b8c7ei7a9e9e014daa5e7c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: After extensive digging, and a bunch of disapppointments: http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meetingtime.html?day=30&month=10&year=2008&pa=0&pa=136&pa=137&pa=179&pa=195&pa=240 ...and that can easily be modified to change dates (it will autoamtically take into account daylight saving time etc, allegedly?). I chose the cities arbitrarily to have one east coast, one west, one in australia, one europe, one UK. (PS: I was deeply disappointed that the various "event organizing sites", especially upcoming.yahoo, still don't support this basic functionality :(. I tried a bunch of them with no success) PPS: I think IME, timezones are tricky to get right at the best of times, but now, when we've got different countries switching off daylight saving times on different days :(, and we're dealing with at least 5 distinct timezones, it's a nightmare to get right. Adam