From jaybushman at gmail.com  Fri Jun  6 15:17:52 2008
From: jaybushman at gmail.com (Jay Bushman)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 12:17:52 -0700
Subject: [arg_discuss] The Spoon River Metblog and Electronic Literature
	Organization Conference
Message-ID: <67EB9A5E-24B7-4033-9155-F1CA15C17794@gmail.com>

Hey all:

I spent last weekend at the Electronic Literature Organization's  
VIsionary Landscapes Conference in Vancouver, Washington.  I was  
invited to show Loose-Fish Project #1: The Good Captain in their Media  
Arts Show and give a talk about it.  It was a fascinating weekend -  
there were lots of academics, old-school hypertext artists and newer  
artists making things that seemed to defy category.  I found that  
while some people knew about ARGs, many did not, and I found myself  
talking about them at length to people who were mind-boggled at the  
idea.

I also had the pleasure of meeting Carolyn Handler Miller, author of  
the book Digital Storytelling (<http://www.amazon.com/Digital-Storytelling-Creators-Interactive-Entertainment/dp/0240805100 
 >) which has a whole chapter on ARGs.  It was quite odd to read a  
textbook describe the Anti-Robot Militia rallies and "coronersweborg."


I've also just launched Loose-Fish Project #2:  THE SPOON RIVER  
METBLOG.  It's an adaptation of the 1916 poetry compendium Spoon River  
Anthology. It's being hosted by the Metroblogging network - a  
syndicate of over 50 city-specific hyper-local new sites around the  
world.  They've built me a fiction metblog for Spoon River, USA.

Site is here:  <http://spoonriver.metblogs.com>
Description of project is here:  <http://www.loose-fish.com/waifpole/current-story-the-spoon-river-metblog/ 
 >


Content will update over the next 3 months.  And this time, there is a  
puzzle buried in the content.  Please check it out when you get a  
moment.  And feel free to leave comments.

Thanks,
Jay

===========================
The Loose-Fish Project:  <www.loose-fish.com>
The Spoon River Metroblog:  <http://spoonriver.metblogs.com>








From btradish at earthlink.net  Wed Jun 11 03:37:27 2008
From: btradish at earthlink.net (John Evans)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 03:37:27 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [arg_discuss] Fw: Urban Prankster
Message-ID: <13595717.1213169847572.JavaMail.root@elwamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Improv Everywhere, whom some of you might have heard of, just started
a new website chronicling urban events called "Urban Prankster". Well,
you can read about it for yourselves; I figured I'd mention it here
since the site description talks about "pranks, hacks, participatory
art, flash mobs, and other creative endeavors that take place in
public places in cities across the world". Hmmmm...

--John Evans
Chaoseed Software - http://chaoseed.com

-----Forwarded Message-----
>From: Improv Everywhere <webmaster at improveverywhere.com>
>Sent: Jun 11, 2008 2:51 AM
>Subject: Urban Prankster
>
>Today we?re proud to announce the launch of a new blog, Urban Prankster. Urban Prankster will
>feature pranks, hacks, participatory art, flash mobs, and other creative endeavors that take place
>in public places in cities across the world. If someone does something awesome in the public
>space, we plan to cover it.
>
>http://urbanprankster.com/
>
>Over the last six months we?ve seen a massive spread of urban creativity in cities across the
>world. We?ve been covering the global trend here on Improv Everywhere, focusing on groups that
>formed on our Improv Everywhere Global network. It?s been awesome to see groups recreating our
>past missions and coming up with new ideas of their own. With missions happening in other cities
>on an almost weekly basis, we decided it was time to create a new site to celebrate this work.
>ImprovEverywhere.com will return to focusing on our work here in New York, and all documentation
>of other groups will move to Urban Prankster.
>
>In addition to Improv Everywhere style events, we?ll also be covering other forms of art and
>comedy in the public space and posting announcements about upcoming events seeking participants.
>
>We?ve got a handful of posts already up on the site, and plan to add new content on a regular
>basis. So give the site a test run, and sign up for the Urban Prankster RSS feed to stay updated.
>
>http://urbanprankster.com/feed/

=====End


From cdena at cross-mediaentertainment.com  Wed Jun 11 04:38:14 2008
From: cdena at cross-mediaentertainment.com (Christy Dena)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 18:38:14 +1000
Subject: [arg_discuss] Social Interaction in ARGs
Message-ID: <20080611083903.ISFU9173.nskntotgx03p.mx.bigpond.com@HPPIE>

Hey everyone, 

 

The following is a resource I've been working on myself, but am thinking
I'll add it in some way to the ARG Design section of ARGology. In it I draw
on existing game design patterns for social interaction, and see how they
apply to ARGs. The listing I have is just a quick draft.

 

http://www.christydena.com/Primer/ARGDashboard_Interaction.html

 

I'd love to hear you thoughts on examples to add, anything you don't agree
with, and also how I should present the information. I don't find the manner
I have presented it at the moment user-friendly. Should I move it to the
ARGology wiki for instance? 

 

I would appreciate any thoughts you have.and I hope you find this resource
interesting and/or helpful.and feel compelling to contribute to it. :-)

 

Regards,

Christy

 


From sjoerdwennekes at hotmail.com  Wed Jun 11 05:55:55 2008
From: sjoerdwennekes at hotmail.com (Sjoerd Wennekes)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 11:55:55 +0200
Subject: [arg_discuss]  The Online Performance Game. A new genre?
In-Reply-To: <20080611083903.ISFU9173.nskntotgx03p.mx.bigpond.com@HPPIE>
References: <20080611083903.ISFU9173.nskntotgx03p.mx.bigpond.com@HPPIE>
Message-ID: <BAY112-W349796388A99121B36231CC0B20@phx.gbl>

Hi Everyone,



I have got a few questions about an ARG I'm making.

But first let me introduce myself.



My name is Sjoerd, I'm from The Netherlands and at this moment I'm
still an art student. I say at this moment, because within a few weeks
I will receive my diploma! :)

I study 'Design for Virtual Theatre and Games' at the Utrecht high
school for the arts. My mentor is Evert Hoogendoorn, who is also a IGDA
member, and probably also reading this... -not sure if he is a member
of this SIG-



For my graduation, I'm making an 'online performance game' (OPG).

At this moment the genre doesn't really exist yet.

But there are a few games that are following the same kind of rules.

The most famous is 'The Soho Project'. (http://www.fictionalmedia.co.uk/2007/)



The game I'm working on is called 'De Opstand'

This is a Dutch name (for me being Dutch) and it can best be translated as 'The Rebellion'.

The game is all about a very important piece of Dutch history, it
covers the so called '80 years war'. In the period 1568-1648 our
country was at war with Spain. The war was all about freedom of
religion and self government. 

Players must first form a team, and then pick one of the assignments.
All these assignments are about the 80 years war, and each of them
covers a different event.

For each assignment the teams have to make a video of there performance. 

Let me give an example.


At the first of April 1572 The Beggars (those where the people who fought for freedom) recaptured the city of 'Den Briel' from Spain.
For 15 points, film this event. Make sure you point out why The Beggars choice Den Briel, and not another city.



>From this point players are free to execute the assignment as they see fit. 

- Are they going for spot on reenactment? Or for originality?

Teams will receive points for performance, for originality and for historical correctness.

It's for the players to make up if they are going for originality or historical correctness, because both is just impossible.

But they always will receive points for performance.



And now the questions I wanted to ask you all.

- Would you like to play a game like this?

In other words: can there be a future for OPG's?



- Can you name some other games that might be OPG's?

I know there must be a few out there, but where?



- Do you have any kind of advise?

All the help is welcome!

I don't really care if it's just one sentence or a full written novel. ;)


- For all of you who understand Dutch the website is: www.deopstand.nl


Kind regards,



Sjoerd Wennekes





__________________

--- And now, the world! ---



-- Excuse my English, it's not my native language. --

 

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/

From patrick at ndreams.com  Wed Jun 11 06:21:34 2008
From: patrick at ndreams.com (Patrick O'Luanaigh)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 11:21:34 +0100
Subject: [arg_discuss] Social Interaction in ARGs
In-Reply-To: <20080611083903.ISFU9173.nskntotgx03p.mx.bigpond.com@HPPIE>
References: <20080611083903.ISFU9173.nskntotgx03p.mx.bigpond.com@HPPIE>
Message-ID: <001d01c8cbac$eda29dd0$4001a8c0@nDreamsRock>

Christy - that's fantastic. I showed it to the team here, and everyone found
it very interesting and thought-provoking. The format was clear, and the
shots of Dark Knight were particularly useful for us as European players who
were prohibited early on from taking part... getting players to actively
encourage others to join in order to remove pixels is a superb idea.
Patrick, nDreams


-----Original Message-----
From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On
Behalf Of Christy Dena
Sent: 11 June 2008 09:38
To: 'Alternate Reality Game Researcher & Educator List'; 'Discussion list of
the IGDA ARG SIG'
Subject: [arg_discuss] Social Interaction in ARGs

Hey everyone, 

 

The following is a resource I've been working on myself, but am thinking
I'll add it in some way to the ARG Design section of ARGology. In it I draw
on existing game design patterns for social interaction, and see how they
apply to ARGs. The listing I have is just a quick draft.

 

http://www.christydena.com/Primer/ARGDashboard_Interaction.html

 

I'd love to hear you thoughts on examples to add, anything you don't agree
with, and also how I should present the information. I don't find the manner
I have presented it at the moment user-friendly. Should I move it to the
ARGology wiki for instance? 

 

I would appreciate any thoughts you have.and I hope you find this resource
interesting and/or helpful.and feel compelling to contribute to it. :-)

 

Regards,

Christy

 

_______________________________________________
ARG_Discuss mailing list
ARG_Discuss at igda.org
http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss


From cdena at cross-mediaentertainment.com  Wed Jun 11 06:35:49 2008
From: cdena at cross-mediaentertainment.com (Christy Dena)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 20:35:49 +1000
Subject: [arg_discuss] Social Interaction in ARGs
In-Reply-To: <001d01c8cbac$eda29dd0$4001a8c0@nDreamsRock>
Message-ID: <20080611103637.BYTY1995.nskntotgx02p.mx.bigpond.com@HPPIE>


You're so kind! Thank you, Patrick, for getting back to me so quickly, and
for letting me know you've found it useful already. :)

I still welcome ideas for development too!

-----Original Message-----
From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On
Behalf Of Patrick O'Luanaigh
Sent: Wednesday, 11 June 2008 20:22
To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG'
Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] Social Interaction in ARGs

Christy - that's fantastic. I showed it to the team here, and everyone found
it very interesting and thought-provoking. The format was clear, and the
shots of Dark Knight were particularly useful for us as European players who
were prohibited early on from taking part... getting players to actively
encourage others to join in order to remove pixels is a superb idea.
Patrick, nDreams


-----Original Message-----
From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On
Behalf Of Christy Dena
Sent: 11 June 2008 09:38
To: 'Alternate Reality Game Researcher & Educator List'; 'Discussion list of
the IGDA ARG SIG'
Subject: [arg_discuss] Social Interaction in ARGs

Hey everyone, 

 

The following is a resource I've been working on myself, but am thinking
I'll add it in some way to the ARG Design section of ARGology. In it I draw
on existing game design patterns for social interaction, and see how they
apply to ARGs. The listing I have is just a quick draft.

 

http://www.christydena.com/Primer/ARGDashboard_Interaction.html

 

I'd love to hear you thoughts on examples to add, anything you don't agree
with, and also how I should present the information. I don't find the manner
I have presented it at the moment user-friendly. Should I move it to the
ARGology wiki for instance? 

 

I would appreciate any thoughts you have.and I hope you find this resource
interesting and/or helpful.and feel compelling to contribute to it. :-)

 

Regards,

Christy

 

_______________________________________________
ARG_Discuss mailing list
ARG_Discuss at igda.org
http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss

_______________________________________________
ARG_Discuss mailing list
ARG_Discuss at igda.org
http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss


From evert.hoogendoorn at theater.hku.nl  Wed Jun 11 10:01:54 2008
From: evert.hoogendoorn at theater.hku.nl (evert hoogendoorn)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 16:01:54 +0200
Subject: [arg_discuss] The Online Performance Game. A new genre?
In-Reply-To: <BAY112-W349796388A99121B36231CC0B20@phx.gbl>
References: <20080611083903.ISFU9173.nskntotgx03p.mx.bigpond.com@HPPIE>
	<BAY112-W349796388A99121B36231CC0B20@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4578F6C3-A003-49C7-B6DC-AB96307E2A37@theater.hku.nl>

hi sjoerd, welcome
(yes, he is a member)
and as your teacher I should correct you: it's not a highschool, its  
an Art School
;-)

-evert-

On Jun 11, 2008, at 11:55 AM, Sjoerd Wennekes wrote:

> Hi Everyone,
>
>
>
> I have got a few questions about an ARG I'm making.
>
> But first let me introduce myself.
>
>
>
> My name is Sjoerd, I'm from The Netherlands and at this moment I'm
> still an art student. I say at this moment, because within a few weeks
> I will receive my diploma! :)
>
> I study 'Design for Virtual Theatre and Games' at the Utrecht high
> school for the arts. My mentor is Evert Hoogendoorn, who is also a  
> IGDA
> member, and probably also reading this... -not sure if he is a member
> of this SIG-
>
>
>
> For my graduation, I'm making an 'online performance game' (OPG).
>
> At this moment the genre doesn't really exist yet.
>
> But there are a few games that are following the same kind of rules.
>
> The most famous is 'The Soho Project'. (http://www.fictionalmedia.co.uk/2007/ 
> )
>
>
>
> The game I'm working on is called 'De Opstand'
>
> This is a Dutch name (for me being Dutch) and it can best be  
> translated as 'The Rebellion'.
>
> The game is all about a very important piece of Dutch history, it
> covers the so called '80 years war'. In the period 1568-1648 our
> country was at war with Spain. The war was all about freedom of
> religion and self government.
>
> Players must first form a team, and then pick one of the assignments.
> All these assignments are about the 80 years war, and each of them
> covers a different event.
>
> For each assignment the teams have to make a video of there  
> performance.
>
> Let me give an example.
>
>
> At the first of April 1572 The Beggars (those where the people who  
> fought for freedom) recaptured the city of 'Den Briel' from Spain.
> For 15 points, film this event. Make sure you point out why The  
> Beggars choice Den Briel, and not another city.
>
>
>
>> From this point players are free to execute the assignment as they  
>> see fit.
>
> - Are they going for spot on reenactment? Or for originality?
>
> Teams will receive points for performance, for originality and for  
> historical correctness.
>
> It's for the players to make up if they are going for originality or  
> historical correctness, because both is just impossible.
>
> But they always will receive points for performance.
>
>
>
> And now the questions I wanted to ask you all.
>
> - Would you like to play a game like this?
>
> In other words: can there be a future for OPG's?
>
>
>
> - Can you name some other games that might be OPG's?
>
> I know there must be a few out there, but where?
>
>
>
> - Do you have any kind of advise?
>
> All the help is welcome!
>
> I don't really care if it's just one sentence or a full written  
> novel. ;)
>
>
> - For all of you who understand Dutch the website is: www.deopstand.nl
>
>
> Kind regards,
>
>
>
> Sjoerd Wennekes
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________
>
> --- And now, the world! ---
>
>
>
> -- Excuse my English, it's not my native language. --
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's  
> FREE!
> http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
> _______________________________________________
> ARG_Discuss mailing list
> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss


From josh.diaz at gmail.com  Wed Jun 11 10:53:54 2008
From: josh.diaz at gmail.com (Josh Diaz)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 10:53:54 -0400
Subject: [arg_discuss] The Online Performance Game. A new genre?
In-Reply-To: <BAY112-W349796388A99121B36231CC0B20@phx.gbl>
References: <20080611083903.ISFU9173.nskntotgx03p.mx.bigpond.com@HPPIE>
	<BAY112-W349796388A99121B36231CC0B20@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <faf6e030806110753v2c4b547uf93383d7eab65788@mail.gmail.com>

One potential predecessor you might want to look at is Revolution,
from the MIT Education Arcade
(http://www.educationarcade.org/revolution). It was distinctly more
coded (in a vaguely technical sense) than the ad-lib roleplaying of an
ARG, but it was similar historically-oriented. It was designed for
high school students to roleplay a range of citizens during the
American Revolution. The game itself was *developed* by students as
well, as they had to delve into both historical research and testing
to see what worked-- for instance, conversations took a much larger
role in the game than originally anticipated. I suspect that there is
a much larger bent towards 'accuracy', but that was part of it's
educational goal + orientation.

Sliding into video-game territory, but perhaps it's useful.

-jd

On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 5:55 AM, Sjoerd Wennekes
<sjoerdwennekes at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Everyone,
>
>
>
> I have got a few questions about an ARG I'm making.
>
> But first let me introduce myself.
>
>
>
> My name is Sjoerd, I'm from The Netherlands and at this moment I'm
> still an art student. I say at this moment, because within a few weeks
> I will receive my diploma! :)
>
> I study 'Design for Virtual Theatre and Games' at the Utrecht high
> school for the arts. My mentor is Evert Hoogendoorn, who is also a IGDA
> member, and probably also reading this... -not sure if he is a member
> of this SIG-
>
>
>
> For my graduation, I'm making an 'online performance game' (OPG).
>
> At this moment the genre doesn't really exist yet.
>
> But there are a few games that are following the same kind of rules.
>
> The most famous is 'The Soho Project'. (http://www.fictionalmedia.co.uk/2007/)
>
>
>
> The game I'm working on is called 'De Opstand'
>
> This is a Dutch name (for me being Dutch) and it can best be translated as 'The Rebellion'.
>
> The game is all about a very important piece of Dutch history, it
> covers the so called '80 years war'. In the period 1568-1648 our
> country was at war with Spain. The war was all about freedom of
> religion and self government.
>
> Players must first form a team, and then pick one of the assignments.
> All these assignments are about the 80 years war, and each of them
> covers a different event.
>
> For each assignment the teams have to make a video of there performance.
>
> Let me give an example.
>
>
> At the first of April 1572 The Beggars (those where the people who fought for freedom) recaptured the city of 'Den Briel' from Spain.
> For 15 points, film this event. Make sure you point out why The Beggars choice Den Briel, and not another city.
>
>
>
> >From this point players are free to execute the assignment as they see fit.
>
> - Are they going for spot on reenactment? Or for originality?
>
> Teams will receive points for performance, for originality and for historical correctness.
>
> It's for the players to make up if they are going for originality or historical correctness, because both is just impossible.
>
> But they always will receive points for performance.
>
>
>
> And now the questions I wanted to ask you all.
>
> - Would you like to play a game like this?
>
> In other words: can there be a future for OPG's?
>
>
>
> - Can you name some other games that might be OPG's?
>
> I know there must be a few out there, but where?
>
>
>
> - Do you have any kind of advise?
>
> All the help is welcome!
>
> I don't really care if it's just one sentence or a full written novel. ;)
>
>
> - For all of you who understand Dutch the website is: www.deopstand.nl
>
>
> Kind regards,
>
>
>
> Sjoerd Wennekes
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________
>
> --- And now, the world! ---
>
>
>
> -- Excuse my English, it's not my native language. --
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE!
> http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
> _______________________________________________
> ARG_Discuss mailing list
> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
>

From sjoerdwennekes at hotmail.com  Wed Jun 11 12:05:53 2008
From: sjoerdwennekes at hotmail.com (Sjoerd Wennekes)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 18:05:53 +0200
Subject: [arg_discuss] The Online Performance Game. A new genre?
In-Reply-To: <faf6e030806110753v2c4b547uf93383d7eab65788@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20080611083903.ISFU9173.nskntotgx03p.mx.bigpond.com@HPPIE>
	<BAY112-W349796388A99121B36231CC0B20@phx.gbl> 
	<faf6e030806110753v2c4b547uf93383d7eab65788@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY112-W26833A14542AA6CADE1D4DC0B20@phx.gbl>

Thanx for the tip!
It's really interesting to see how other people are dealing with an historical theme for a game. Specially when they take it seriously!

And of course I'm not a high school student. But here in The Netherlands we use the word 'high school' for when you are a bachelor student.
Got a little bit confused there...
- Sorry, Evert...-

Sjoerd


> Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 10:53:54 -0400
> From: josh.diaz at gmail.com
> To: arg_discuss at igda.org
> Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] The Online Performance Game. A new genre?
> 
> One potential predecessor you might want to look at is Revolution,
> from the MIT Education Arcade
> (http://www.educationarcade.org/revolution). It was distinctly more
> coded (in a vaguely technical sense) than the ad-lib roleplaying of an
> ARG, but it was similar historically-oriented. It was designed for
> high school students to roleplay a range of citizens during the
> American Revolution. The game itself was *developed* by students as
> well, as they had to delve into both historical research and testing
> to see what worked-- for instance, conversations took a much larger
> role in the game than originally anticipated. I suspect that there is
> a much larger bent towards 'accuracy', but that was part of it's
> educational goal + orientation.
> 
> Sliding into video-game territory, but perhaps it's useful.
> 
> -jd
> 
> On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 5:55 AM, Sjoerd Wennekes
> <sjoerdwennekes at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi Everyone,
> >
> >
> >
> > I have got a few questions about an ARG I'm making.
> >
> > But first let me introduce myself.
> >
> >
> >
> > My name is Sjoerd, I'm from The Netherlands and at this moment I'm
> > still an art student. I say at this moment, because within a few weeks
> > I will receive my diploma! :)
> >
> > I study 'Design for Virtual Theatre and Games' at the Utrecht high
> > school for the arts. My mentor is Evert Hoogendoorn, who is also a IGDA
> > member, and probably also reading this... -not sure if he is a member
> > of this SIG-
> >
> >
> >
> > For my graduation, I'm making an 'online performance game' (OPG).
> >
> > At this moment the genre doesn't really exist yet.
> >
> > But there are a few games that are following the same kind of rules.
> >
> > The most famous is 'The Soho Project'. (http://www.fictionalmedia.co.uk/2007/)
> >
> >
> >
> > The game I'm working on is called 'De Opstand'
> >
> > This is a Dutch name (for me being Dutch) and it can best be translated as 'The Rebellion'.
> >
> > The game is all about a very important piece of Dutch history, it
> > covers the so called '80 years war'. In the period 1568-1648 our
> > country was at war with Spain. The war was all about freedom of
> > religion and self government.
> >
> > Players must first form a team, and then pick one of the assignments.
> > All these assignments are about the 80 years war, and each of them
> > covers a different event.
> >
> > For each assignment the teams have to make a video of there performance.
> >
> > Let me give an example.
> >
> >
> > At the first of April 1572 The Beggars (those where the people who fought for freedom) recaptured the city of 'Den Briel' from Spain.
> > For 15 points, film this event. Make sure you point out why The Beggars choice Den Briel, and not another city.
> >
> >
> >
> > >From this point players are free to execute the assignment as they see fit.
> >
> > - Are they going for spot on reenactment? Or for originality?
> >
> > Teams will receive points for performance, for originality and for historical correctness.
> >
> > It's for the players to make up if they are going for originality or historical correctness, because both is just impossible.
> >
> > But they always will receive points for performance.
> >
> >
> >
> > And now the questions I wanted to ask you all.
> >
> > - Would you like to play a game like this?
> >
> > In other words: can there be a future for OPG's?
> >
> >
> >
> > - Can you name some other games that might be OPG's?
> >
> > I know there must be a few out there, but where?
> >
> >
> >
> > - Do you have any kind of advise?
> >
> > All the help is welcome!
> >
> > I don't really care if it's just one sentence or a full written novel. ;)
> >
> >
> > - For all of you who understand Dutch the website is: www.deopstand.nl
> >
> >
> > Kind regards,
> >
> >
> >
> > Sjoerd Wennekes
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________
> >
> > --- And now, the world! ---
> >
> >
> >
> > -- Excuse my English, it's not my native language. --
> >
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE!
> > http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
> > _______________________________________________
> > ARG_Discuss mailing list
> > ARG_Discuss at igda.org
> > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
> >
> _______________________________________________
> ARG_Discuss mailing list
> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/

From swm at globalpolice.org  Wed Jun 11 14:57:17 2008
From: swm at globalpolice.org (Global Police)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 11:57:17 -0700
Subject: [arg_discuss] The Online Performance Game. A new genre?
In-Reply-To: <BAY112-W349796388A99121B36231CC0B20@phx.gbl>
References: <20080611083903.ISFU9173.nskntotgx03p.mx.bigpond.com@HPPIE>
	<BAY112-W349796388A99121B36231CC0B20@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <0DBFBA9A-F405-47B3-B6EB-F2C3177C8EF5@globalpolice.org>

On Jun 11, 2008, at 2:55 AM, Sjoerd Wennekes wrote:
> - Can you name some other games that might be OPG's?

This is some self-promotion, but SFZero (http://sfzero.org) probably  
fits your definition of an Online Performance Game.  We've called it a  
"Collaborative Production Game", and others have referred it and  
others like it as "mission-based".  Some of our missions later turned  
up on The SOHO Project (a-HEM), so if you're familiar with that  
project then you've got the gist of it.  For SFZero, players create  
the great majority of missions - Jane McGonigal's "This Might Be a  
Game" discusses that aspect of the game in Ch 7.  She has referred to  
games that work this way as "superhero" games - which nicely draws  
attention to their individual-empowerment aspects.

We've been working on a similar project geared toward engaging high  
school students in American History studies.  A Brazillian ARG called  
Teoria das Cordas (Guilherme Coube worked on it, and I'm not sure who  
else) had a component called O Tambor (sadly no longer live at  
otambor.com) which was also similar.  In this game, the "OPG" was a  
narrative component of the larger work.  O Tambor was represented as  
the first stage of a potentially-sinister social experiment being  
conducted by a Sao Paulo psychiatrist, which highlights some of the  
(justifiable) concern over the "crowds do what this website tells  
them" model!

Chronologically-speaking, I think all of these games owe something to  
Miranda July's "Learning to Love You More", which is also assignment- 
driven, but without points (or community moderation, AFAIK) or the  
social networking aspect.

It's been a very seductive model for a widening array of projects with  
educational, community-service, urban exploration, and job-training  
aims, but it's worth noting that those objectives can be undermined by  
the game structure.  Unless things like creativity, detail, daring,  
and presentation are correctly rewarded by the game (or, unless junk  
is discouraged), you'll end up in a situation where many players treat  
assignments as puzzles which should be completed as quickly as  
possible in a way that meets the narrowest reading of the assignment.   
If the game's structure encourages quality of assignment completions  
over quantity of completions, you should end up with a community that  
helps tremendously to encourage noobs to meet those standards, rewards  
great work by other players (whether with points or just respect), and  
drives the social "plot" of the competition in a fun and constructive  
way.  That's particularly important because your project will  
(hopefully!) soon reach a level of participation where your team can't  
necessarily award quality points in a timely and consistent way.   
It'll be interesting to see how much of an impact requiring players to  
make videos has on all of this (if you're already going to the trouble  
of making a video, you might as well do it well, right?)

Whew, that all came out pretty dry, but it's really fun stuff to work  
on, I swear!  Hopefully it gives you a few more things to look at or  
think about.  I don't read Dutch, but the site looks great, and I  
think the focus on video will serve you well.  Best of luck!

-Sean



Sean W. Mahan
The Playtime Anti-Boredom Society (is looking for work!)
sean at paragoogle.com
C:415-430-7378


From colinmcnee at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 11 21:49:27 2008
From: colinmcnee at yahoo.com (Colin McNee)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 18:49:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [arg_discuss] The Online Performance Game. A new genre?
In-Reply-To: <BAY112-W349796388A99121B36231CC0B20@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <865086.42976.qm@web63306.mail.re1.yahoo.com>

Hi &amp; welcome Sjoerd, 
To answer your first question, yes I would absolutely like to play this game/performance. I'm a video hobbyist and would dig the hell out of this! It sounds like an excellent way to learn about a complicated historical period, it's a really interesting pedagogical technique. I can see this having application in a variety of subjects, such as bio-chemistry where the students could act out complicated chemical reactions...

Sort of like "Hi! I'm Adenosine Tri-Phosphate! I'm the star of the Muscular Contraction Show..."

I've found that in my own teaching that any time you get students up and being creative and playing, that the lessons learned are indelible. 

I also like your grasp of the necessity of placing some constraints on the game (you are assigning a particular battle or event) but allowing more or less free reign within the boundaries of the assignment. I suspect that your students/performers will amaze you with the things you come up with.

As far as the advice I could give, I would ensure that all of the players understand the judging criteria ahead of time and are acquainted with the judges and that these judges are credible. Also, it's a contest and in that case, some of your players will want completely quantitative scoring criteria, so be prepared for a lot of whining (I'm going by my experience with American students here, maybe Dutch students are different). Also, you may have to have the judges back up their scoring with a narrative as to why they scored each team the way they did.  

Finally, sharing: what's the finished product going to be? A web-site? A DVD? I ask this because I'd like to check it out and your students are also going to want some sort of 'hard-copy'. 

Great idea,
Colin


--- On Wed, 6/11/08, Sjoerd Wennekes &lt;sjoerdwennekes at hotmail.com&gt; wrote:
From: Sjoerd Wennekes &lt;sjoerdwennekes at hotmail.com&gt;
Subject: [arg_discuss]  The Online Performance Game. A new genre?
To: arg_discuss at igda.org
Date: Wednesday, June 11, 2008, 2:55 AM

Hi Everyone,



I have got a few questions about an ARG I'm making.

But first let me introduce myself.



My name is Sjoerd, I'm from The Netherlands and at this moment I'm
still an art student. I say at this moment, because within a few weeks
I will receive my diploma! :)

I study 'Design for Virtual Theatre and Games' at the Utrecht high
school for the arts. My mentor is Evert Hoogendoorn, who is also a IGDA
member, and probably also reading this... -not sure if he is a member
of this SIG-



For my graduation, I'm making an 'online performance game' (OPG).

At this moment the genre doesn't really exist yet.

But there are a few games that are following the same kind of rules.

The most famous is 'The Soho Project'.
(http://www.fictionalmedia.co.uk/2007/)



The game I'm working on is called 'De Opstand'

This is a Dutch name (for me being Dutch) and it can best be translated as
'The Rebellion'.

The game is all about a very important piece of Dutch history, it
covers the so called '80 years war'. In the period 1568-1648 our
country was at war with Spain. The war was all about freedom of
religion and self government. 

Players must first form a team, and then pick one of the assignments.
All these assignments are about the 80 years war, and each of them
covers a different event.

For each assignment the teams have to make a video of there performance. 

Let me give an example.


At the first of April 1572 The Beggars (those where the people who fought for
freedom) recaptured the city of 'Den Briel' from Spain.
For 15 points, film this event. Make sure you point out why The Beggars choice
Den Briel, and not another city.



&gt;From this point players are free to execute the assignment as they see fit.


- Are they going for spot on reenactment? Or for originality?

Teams will receive points for performance, for originality and for historical
correctness.

It's for the players to make up if they are going for originality or
historical correctness, because both is just impossible.

But they always will receive points for performance.



And now the questions I wanted to ask you all.

- Would you like to play a game like this?

In other words: can there be a future for OPG's?



- Can you name some other games that might be OPG's?

I know there must be a few out there, but where?



- Do you have any kind of advise?

All the help is welcome!

I don't really care if it's just one sentence or a full written novel.
;)


- For all of you who understand Dutch the website is: www.deopstand.nl


Kind regards,



Sjoerd Wennekes





__________________

--- And now, the world! ---



-- Excuse my English, it's not my native language. --

 

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
_______________________________________________
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From btradish at earthlink.net  Thu Jun 12 02:14:13 2008
From: btradish at earthlink.net (John Evans)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 02:14:13 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [arg_discuss] Social Interaction in ARGs
Message-ID: <18521337.1213251254204.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

>Hey everyone, 
>
>The following is a resource I've been working on myself, but am thinking
>I'll add it in some way to the ARG Design section of ARGology. In it I draw
>on existing game design patterns for social interaction, and see how they
>apply to ARGs. The listing I have is just a quick draft.
>
>http://www.christydena.com/Primer/ARGDashboard_Interaction.html
>
>I'd love to hear you thoughts on examples to add, anything you don't agree
>with, and also how I should present the information. I don't find the manner
>I have presented it at the moment user-friendly. Should I move it to the
>ARGology wiki for instance? 

That's awesome, Christy. It *does* seem like a good topic for the wiki, in
the sense that people who are experts in one game or another will be able
to talk about the activities involved in that particular game. I could
help out with moving it to the Wiki if you need some "grunt HTML/Wiki-code"
work done. ;)

Though, I have to be honest, I look at that chart and I think "So how can I
create a game that fills in some of these empty categories?". Hmmm...

--John Evans
Chaoseed Software - http://chaoseed.com


From patrick at ndreams.com  Thu Jun 12 04:14:00 2008
From: patrick at ndreams.com (Patrick O'Luanaigh)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 09:14:00 +0100
Subject: [arg_discuss]  New York Apartment Mystery
In-Reply-To: <18521337.1213251254204.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <18521337.1213251254204.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <004b01c8cc64$45c95f00$4001a8c0@nDreamsRock>

This is quite an interesting article on a New York architect who created a
Fifth-Avenue apartment full of hidden mysteries and puzzles within it,
without telling the new owner until they moved in....

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/12/garden/12puzzle.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin#

Patrick, nDreams



-----Original Message-----
From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On
Behalf Of John Evans
Sent: 12 June 2008 07:14
To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG
Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] Social Interaction in ARGs

>Hey everyone, 
>
>The following is a resource I've been working on myself, but am thinking
>I'll add it in some way to the ARG Design section of ARGology. In it I draw
>on existing game design patterns for social interaction, and see how they
>apply to ARGs. The listing I have is just a quick draft.
>
>http://www.christydena.com/Primer/ARGDashboard_Interaction.html
>
>I'd love to hear you thoughts on examples to add, anything you don't agree
>with, and also how I should present the information. I don't find the
manner
>I have presented it at the moment user-friendly. Should I move it to the
>ARGology wiki for instance? 

That's awesome, Christy. It *does* seem like a good topic for the wiki, in
the sense that people who are experts in one game or another will be able
to talk about the activities involved in that particular game. I could
help out with moving it to the Wiki if you need some "grunt HTML/Wiki-code"
work done. ;)

Though, I have to be honest, I look at that chart and I think "So how can I
create a game that fills in some of these empty categories?". Hmmm...

--John Evans
Chaoseed Software - http://chaoseed.com

_______________________________________________
ARG_Discuss mailing list
ARG_Discuss at igda.org
http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss


From adrijackmarie at gmail.com  Wed Jun 11 12:18:11 2008
From: adrijackmarie at gmail.com (Adrien MARIE)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 18:18:11 +0200
Subject: [arg_discuss] The Online Performance Game. A new genre?
In-Reply-To: <BAY112-W349796388A99121B36231CC0B20@phx.gbl>
References: <20080611083903.ISFU9173.nskntotgx03p.mx.bigpond.com@HPPIE>
	<BAY112-W349796388A99121B36231CC0B20@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <FD3DDDCB-BD11-4576-9C64-FF11E89B6C1B@gmail.com>

Design for Virtual Theatre and Games
sounds great, why don't they taught same kind of thing at french  
university ?
-------------- next part --------------



On 11 Jun 2008, at 11:55, Sjoerd Wennekes wrote:

> Design for Virtual Theatre and Games


From cdena at cross-mediaentertainment.com  Thu Jun 12 09:35:43 2008
From: cdena at cross-mediaentertainment.com (Christy Dena)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 23:35:43 +1000
Subject: [arg_discuss] New York Apartment Mystery
In-Reply-To: <004b01c8cc64$45c95f00$4001a8c0@nDreamsRock>
Message-ID: <20080612133631.QOQB1995.nskntotgx02p.mx.bigpond.com@HPPIE>


That's great!

-----Original Message-----
From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On
Behalf Of Patrick O'Luanaigh
Sent: Thursday, 12 June 2008 18:14
To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG'
Subject: [arg_discuss] New York Apartment Mystery

This is quite an interesting article on a New York architect who created a
Fifth-Avenue apartment full of hidden mysteries and puzzles within it,
without telling the new owner until they moved in....

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/12/garden/12puzzle.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin#

Patrick, nDreams



-----Original Message-----
From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On
Behalf Of John Evans
Sent: 12 June 2008 07:14
To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG
Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] Social Interaction in ARGs

>Hey everyone, 
>
>The following is a resource I've been working on myself, but am thinking
>I'll add it in some way to the ARG Design section of ARGology. In it I draw
>on existing game design patterns for social interaction, and see how they
>apply to ARGs. The listing I have is just a quick draft.
>
>http://www.christydena.com/Primer/ARGDashboard_Interaction.html
>
>I'd love to hear you thoughts on examples to add, anything you don't agree
>with, and also how I should present the information. I don't find the
manner
>I have presented it at the moment user-friendly. Should I move it to the
>ARGology wiki for instance? 

That's awesome, Christy. It *does* seem like a good topic for the wiki, in
the sense that people who are experts in one game or another will be able
to talk about the activities involved in that particular game. I could
help out with moving it to the Wiki if you need some "grunt HTML/Wiki-code"
work done. ;)

Though, I have to be honest, I look at that chart and I think "So how can I
create a game that fills in some of these empty categories?". Hmmm...

--John Evans
Chaoseed Software - http://chaoseed.com

_______________________________________________
ARG_Discuss mailing list
ARG_Discuss at igda.org
http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss

_______________________________________________
ARG_Discuss mailing list
ARG_Discuss at igda.org
http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss


From cdena at cross-mediaentertainment.com  Thu Jun 12 09:38:21 2008
From: cdena at cross-mediaentertainment.com (Christy Dena)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 23:38:21 +1000
Subject: [arg_discuss] Social Interaction in ARGs
In-Reply-To: <18521337.1213251254204.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20080612133909.QPKT1995.nskntotgx02p.mx.bigpond.com@HPPIE>


Cool, thanks John!

Yes, empty categories are an enticement. They may not all be correct, need
more people to add their thoughts. I think a comparison with other types of
pervasive games would be interesting too...


-----Original Message-----
From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On
Behalf Of John Evans
Sent: Thursday, 12 June 2008 16:14
To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG
Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] Social Interaction in ARGs

>Hey everyone, 
>
>The following is a resource I've been working on myself, but am thinking
>I'll add it in some way to the ARG Design section of ARGology. In it I draw
>on existing game design patterns for social interaction, and see how they
>apply to ARGs. The listing I have is just a quick draft.
>
>http://www.christydena.com/Primer/ARGDashboard_Interaction.html
>
>I'd love to hear you thoughts on examples to add, anything you don't agree
>with, and also how I should present the information. I don't find the
manner
>I have presented it at the moment user-friendly. Should I move it to the
>ARGology wiki for instance? 

That's awesome, Christy. It *does* seem like a good topic for the wiki, in
the sense that people who are experts in one game or another will be able
to talk about the activities involved in that particular game. I could
help out with moving it to the Wiki if you need some "grunt HTML/Wiki-code"
work done. ;)

Though, I have to be honest, I look at that chart and I think "So how can I
create a game that fills in some of these empty categories?". Hmmm...

--John Evans
Chaoseed Software - http://chaoseed.com

_______________________________________________
ARG_Discuss mailing list
ARG_Discuss at igda.org
http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss


From mj_williams at mac.com  Thu Jun 12 09:41:56 2008
From: mj_williams at mac.com (Marc Williams)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 14:41:56 +0100
Subject: [arg_discuss] Social Interaction in ARGs
In-Reply-To: <20080612133909.QPKT1995.nskntotgx02p.mx.bigpond.com@HPPIE>
References: <20080612133909.QPKT1995.nskntotgx02p.mx.bigpond.com@HPPIE>
Message-ID: <3B28C9B9-8771-46F5-A9AA-C6A8101751BA@mac.com>

Ooh, metoo!
I meant to say how impressive I thought it was. Really useful - thanks  
Christy.

On 12 Jun 2008, at 14:38, Christy Dena wrote:


Cool, thanks John!

Yes, empty categories are an enticement. They may not all be correct,  
need
more people to add their thoughts. I think a comparison with other  
types of
pervasive games would be interesting too...


-----Original Message-----
From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss- 
bounces at igda.org] On
Behalf Of John Evans
Sent: Thursday, 12 June 2008 16:14
To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG
Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] Social Interaction in ARGs

> Hey everyone,
>
> The following is a resource I've been working on myself, but am  
> thinking
> I'll add it in some way to the ARG Design section of ARGology. In it  
> I draw
> on existing game design patterns for social interaction, and see how  
> they
> apply to ARGs. The listing I have is just a quick draft.
>
> http://www.christydena.com/Primer/ARGDashboard_Interaction.html
>
> I'd love to hear you thoughts on examples to add, anything you don't  
> agree
> with, and also how I should present the information. I don't find the
manner
> I have presented it at the moment user-friendly. Should I move it to  
> the
> ARGology wiki for instance?

That's awesome, Christy. It *does* seem like a good topic for the  
wiki, in
the sense that people who are experts in one game or another will be  
able
to talk about the activities involved in that particular game. I could
help out with moving it to the Wiki if you need some "grunt HTML/Wiki- 
code"
work done. ;)

Though, I have to be honest, I look at that chart and I think "So how  
can I
create a game that fills in some of these empty categories?". Hmmm...

--John Evans
Chaoseed Software - http://chaoseed.com

_______________________________________________
ARG_Discuss mailing list
ARG_Discuss at igda.org
http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss

_______________________________________________
ARG_Discuss mailing list
ARG_Discuss at igda.org
http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss


From sjoerdwennekes at hotmail.com  Thu Jun 12 09:52:14 2008
From: sjoerdwennekes at hotmail.com (Sjoerd Wennekes)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 15:52:14 +0200
Subject: [arg_discuss] New York Apartment Mystery
In-Reply-To: <20080612133631.QOQB1995.nskntotgx02p.mx.bigpond.com@HPPIE>
References: <004b01c8cc64$45c95f00$4001a8c0@nDreamsRock>
	<20080612133631.QOQB1995.nskntotgx02p.mx.bigpond.com@HPPIE>
Message-ID: <BAY112-W427B2CA996828D821814D6C0AD0@phx.gbl>



I really like this!!

> From: cdena at cross-mediaentertainment.com
> To: arg_discuss at igda.org
> Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 23:35:43 +1000
> Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] New York Apartment Mystery
> 
> 
> That's great!
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On
> Behalf Of Patrick O'Luanaigh
> Sent: Thursday, 12 June 2008 18:14
> To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG'
> Subject: [arg_discuss] New York Apartment Mystery
> 
> This is quite an interesting article on a New York architect who created a
> Fifth-Avenue apartment full of hidden mysteries and puzzles within it,
> without telling the new owner until they moved in....
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/12/garden/12puzzle.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin#
> 
> Patrick, nDreams
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On
> Behalf Of John Evans
> Sent: 12 June 2008 07:14
> To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG
> Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] Social Interaction in ARGs
> 
> >Hey everyone, 
> >
> >The following is a resource I've been working on myself, but am thinking
> >I'll add it in some way to the ARG Design section of ARGology. In it I draw
> >on existing game design patterns for social interaction, and see how they
> >apply to ARGs. The listing I have is just a quick draft.
> >
> >http://www.christydena.com/Primer/ARGDashboard_Interaction.html
> >
> >I'd love to hear you thoughts on examples to add, anything you don't agree
> >with, and also how I should present the information. I don't find the
> manner
> >I have presented it at the moment user-friendly. Should I move it to the
> >ARGology wiki for instance? 
> 
> That's awesome, Christy. It *does* seem like a good topic for the wiki, in
> the sense that people who are experts in one game or another will be able
> to talk about the activities involved in that particular game. I could
> help out with moving it to the Wiki if you need some "grunt HTML/Wiki-code"
> work done. ;)
> 
> Though, I have to be honest, I look at that chart and I think "So how can I
> create a game that fills in some of these empty categories?". Hmmm...
> 
> --John Evans
> Chaoseed Software - http://chaoseed.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ARG_Discuss mailing list
> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ARG_Discuss mailing list
> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
> 
> _______________________________________________
> ARG_Discuss mailing list
> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss

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From me at addlepated.net  Thu Jun 12 13:37:43 2008
From: me at addlepated.net (D. Cook)
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 12:37:43 -0500
Subject: [arg_discuss] New York Apartment Mystery
In-Reply-To: <004b01c8cc64$45c95f00$4001a8c0@nDreamsRock>
References: <18521337.1213251254204.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<004b01c8cc64$45c95f00$4001a8c0@nDreamsRock>
Message-ID: <D9A5D73B-1E74-40E5-9F94-79F9494E19FA@addlepated.net>

Ha!  I wish I had $10 million to pay someone to make me an ARG-house. ;)

On Jun 12, 2008, at 3:14 AM, Patrick O'Luanaigh wrote:
> This is quite an interesting article on a New York architect who  
> created a
> Fifth-Avenue apartment full of hidden mysteries and puzzles within it,
> without telling the new owner until they moved in....
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/12/garden/12puzzle.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin#
>
> Patrick, nDreams
>


From svenabraham at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 13 09:46:58 2008
From: svenabraham at yahoo.com (Sven Abraham)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 13:46:58 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [arg_discuss] The (Marketing) Effects Of Alternate Reality Games
Message-ID: <205633.72386.qm@web25907.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>

Hello,

I'm reading for a quite few time your postings. I'd like to introduce 
myself again. My name is Sven Abraham. I study Strategic Communication 
and Planning at the The Berlin University of the Arts in Germany. I've 
started my "ARG-career" at vm-people as an intern. A few months later I 
was "upgraded" to a trainee. :-) It's great working for vm-people and it 
makes a lot of fun with that guys. We're sitting in the middle of Berlin 
and working basically on viral marketing campaigns. vm-people started in 
2006 with ARGs and is so far the only agency in germany which is 
developing, organizing and operating ARGs. The german market is not that 
big like in the states/canada but it's growing. We could generate a 
solid fan base.

I'm writing on my diploma thesis about ARGs. The subject is "the effect 
of ARGs as an instrument of the "brand communication" in the aspect of 
defined marketing goals".

For the advertising driving companys it gets still more difficult to 
achieve people by classic advertizing measures. So they're looking for 
new communication channels steadily to commercialize their products or 
services. An ARG seems to be a suitable tool for this. The interactivity 
of the game and the high involvement of the players shall award a strong 
effect to the communication strategy. ARGs are produced effortfully and 
can get very expensive. In most of the cases the product, service or 
company isn't announced in the game phase. (Ok, not in The Art of the 
H3eist ;-) ) Another point is the indentification of the teammates from 
the circle of the potential aim group network which shall initiate the 
ARG and drag other persons in the game. For certain players it seems not 
relevant what the ARG wants to attract. You can read on the internet 
that this form of advertising is unimportant for them and they're 
playing the ARG because alone the fun counts.

Is there really an effect and how can this effect be proved? Are there 
any reliable and adequate measuring instruments to shows a ARG is an 
instrument of the brand communication of marketing objectives defined 
for the attainment works? Sure, you can measure all that quantity stuff 
like blogposts, wikis, newsarticles, etc. or could you the net promoter 
score... But there has to be more...

It would be great to hear from you!

Best
Sven









      __________________________________________________________
Gesendet von Yahoo! Mail.
Dem pfiffigeren Posteingang.
http://de.overview.mail.yahoo.com

From wendeth at wendydespain.com  Sat Jun 14 15:47:52 2008
From: wendeth at wendydespain.com (Wendy Despain)
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 12:47:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [arg_discuss] The (Marketing) Effects Of Alternate Reality Games
In-Reply-To: <205633.72386.qm@web25907.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <205633.72386.qm@web25907.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3173.69.144.84.21.1213472872.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com>

Hi Sven,

I've mostly worked in ARGs related to television shows, and believe
me, those clients want to measure exactly how their marketing dollars
are contributing to the success of the product (the show).

One thing we did would be to measure traffic of websites over time.
The show aired at different times in different cities, so when a new
url was mentioned on the show we could track the response and see
spikes in traffic immediately after 35 minutes into the hour, for
instance.

We reported weekly to the clients with information on web traffic,
forum traffic (and topics) and ARG progress. Unfortunately, all that
information is locked up tight and can't be made public.

Ultimately, our ARG had to impact show ratings and that's an
exceptionally difficult thing to correlate, but since most of our ARGs
were intended to build up to the launch of the show and get people to
watch that first premiere episode of the season, getting a good rating
on that premiere showed we did something right.

Wendy Despain
quantumcontent.com


On Fri, June 13, 2008 6:46 am, Sven Abraham wrote:
> Is there really an effect and how can this effect be proved? Are there
> any reliable and adequate measuring instruments to shows a ARG is an
> instrument of the brand communication of marketing objectives defined
> for the attainment works? Sure, you can measure all that quantity
> stuff
> like blogposts, wikis, newsarticles, etc. or could you the net
> promoter
> score... But there has to be more...
>
> It would be great to hear from you!
>
> Best
> Sven
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>       __________________________________________________________
> Gesendet von Yahoo! Mail.
> Dem pfiffigeren Posteingang.
> http://de.overview.mail.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> ARG_Discuss mailing list
> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
>


Wendy Despain
quantumcontent.com


From cdena at cross-mediaentertainment.com  Sat Jun 14 22:59:57 2008
From: cdena at cross-mediaentertainment.com (Christy Dena)
Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 12:29:57 +0930
Subject: [arg_discuss] The (Marketing) Effects Of Alternate Reality Games
In-Reply-To: <3173.69.144.84.21.1213472872.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com>
References: <205633.72386.qm@web25907.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<3173.69.144.84.21.1213472872.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com>
Message-ID: <e03f95410806141959p3eb34b5dk6cb60fec9046a61d@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Sven,

Great to see you're pursuing both academic study and creative practice
at the same time. :)

I've considered your question about measuring the 'effect' of ARGs
too, and found that looking at what you're measuring and what
'branding' is, is helpful. What is the difference between branding and
advertising (indeed marketing and advertising)? What are the
differences in their goals? Once you've cleared up these questions, I
think you'll find different assessment methods emerge. I look forward
to (hopefully) reading what you discover and propose.

Also, I think you'll find that in most cases the product, service or
company IS known during the game phase. The difference here is that it
is not necessarily 'announced' as a commissioned project for a
product, service or company, but the relationship to a product,
service or company is made very early on in most ARGs. Various
techniques include starting the game trail from a trailer in a film,
during a TV show and so on. It is usually in the pre-game period where
no obvious connection is made, but these are very, very short periods.

Best,
Christy

On 6/15/08, Wendy Despain <wendeth at wendydespain.com> wrote:
> Hi Sven,
>
> I've mostly worked in ARGs related to television shows, and believe
> me, those clients want to measure exactly how their marketing dollars
> are contributing to the success of the product (the show).
>
> One thing we did would be to measure traffic of websites over time.
> The show aired at different times in different cities, so when a new
> url was mentioned on the show we could track the response and see
> spikes in traffic immediately after 35 minutes into the hour, for
> instance.
>
> We reported weekly to the clients with information on web traffic,
> forum traffic (and topics) and ARG progress. Unfortunately, all that
> information is locked up tight and can't be made public.
>
> Ultimately, our ARG had to impact show ratings and that's an
> exceptionally difficult thing to correlate, but since most of our ARGs
> were intended to build up to the launch of the show and get people to
> watch that first premiere episode of the season, getting a good rating
> on that premiere showed we did something right.
>
> Wendy Despain
> quantumcontent.com
>
>
> On Fri, June 13, 2008 6:46 am, Sven Abraham wrote:
>> Is there really an effect and how can this effect be proved? Are there
>> any reliable and adequate measuring instruments to shows a ARG is an
>> instrument of the brand communication of marketing objectives defined
>> for the attainment works? Sure, you can measure all that quantity
>> stuff
>> like blogposts, wikis, newsarticles, etc. or could you the net
>> promoter
>> score... But there has to be more...
>>
>> It would be great to hear from you!
>>
>> Best
>> Sven
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>       __________________________________________________________
>> Gesendet von Yahoo! Mail.
>> Dem pfiffigeren Posteingang.
>> http://de.overview.mail.yahoo.com
>> _______________________________________________
>> ARG_Discuss mailing list
>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
>>
>
>
> Wendy Despain
> quantumcontent.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> ARG_Discuss mailing list
> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
>

From sjoerdwennekes at hotmail.com  Mon Jun 16 05:38:39 2008
From: sjoerdwennekes at hotmail.com (Sjoerd Wennekes)
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 11:38:39 +0200
Subject: [arg_discuss]  Let the games begin!
In-Reply-To: <e03f95410806141959p3eb34b5dk6cb60fec9046a61d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <205633.72386.qm@web25907.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<3173.69.144.84.21.1213472872.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> 
	<e03f95410806141959p3eb34b5dk6cb60fec9046a61d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY112-W2249F3D72E8370AF9D687FC0A90@phx.gbl>

Hi everyone,

A few days ago I told you all about my 'online performance game' project. First of all I want to thank everybody for their most helpful and very inspiring responds! Thanks!
At this moment I'm still tweaking with the rule set and the design of the website. But this are all minor details. And that is why (dare I say it?) the game is ready to be played!! :-)  www.deopstand.nl

I made this game as a graduation project, and with it I hope to receive my art school diploma. The course I follow is 'Design for Virtual Theatre and Games'! And of course I'm not the only student. So here is an open invitation to you all:

If you happen to be in The Netherlands on June the 24th and/or the 25th, and you happen to be in the city of Utrecht, please feel free to come to our graduation exposition!! Their will be all different kind of projects. Like a Nintendo DS-game, a game about lucid dreams, installations, a 'Point an Hold Adventure Game', the first dutch 'online performance game' and many many more!

The address is:
Huis aan de Werf
Boorstraat 107
Utrecht

Before you ask, yes the entrance is free!! :)
And the doors are open from 17:00 till 23:00
Hope to see a few of you!

Greetings
Sjoerd


__________________

--- And now, the world! ---



-- Excuse my English, it's not my native language. --

_________________________________________________________________
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From morbus at disobey.com  Mon Jun 16 12:04:16 2008
From: morbus at disobey.com (Morbus Iff)
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 12:04:16 -0400
Subject: [arg_discuss] Mystery on Fifth Avenue
Message-ID: <48568F00.4080507@disobey.com>


Reposted from internal discussion:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/12/garden/12puzzle.html?_r=2&pagewanted=1&oref=slogin

Take a look at the Slideshow.

-- 
Morbus Iff ( i'm wearing footsie jammies here )
Technical: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/au/779
Enjoy: http://www.disobey.com/ and http://www.videounderbelly.com/
aim: akaMorbus / skype: morbusiff / icq: 2927491 / jabber.org: morbus

From iaskwith at MIT.EDU  Mon Jun 16 13:10:52 2008
From: iaskwith at MIT.EDU (Ivan Askwith)
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 13:10:52 -0400
Subject: [arg_discuss] The (Marketing) Effects Of Alternate Reality Games
In-Reply-To: <e03f95410806141959p3eb34b5dk6cb60fec9046a61d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <205633.72386.qm@web25907.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
	<3173.69.144.84.21.1213472872.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com>
	<e03f95410806141959p3eb34b5dk6cb60fec9046a61d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CD1781D5-A5DC-4E48-8951-40138F4E449A@mit.edu>

Sven et al,

I'm inclined to agree with Christy's assessment and questions, and  
would add this specific possible proposal: right now, ARGs seem to  
function most often as "branded entertainment experiences."

At the risk of oversimplifying, I'd also say that for this particular  
discussion, it's useful to differentiate broadly between two "classes"  
of ARGs: those that tell their own story and either integrate or have  
clear sponsorship by a brand (e.g. The Art of the H3ist, The Lost  
Ring), and those that are meant to build interest and engagement with  
a larger cross-platform narrative that might exist as its own series  
of free and commercial content products (e.g. Lost, Heroes, and most  
campaigns done in conjunction or lead-up to films, television shows,  
etc).

With the latter type, as Wendy said, clients *always* push for some  
tangible proof that there has been a quantifiable effect from an ARG,  
and in most cases -- though the exact correlation is impossible to  
"prove" -- this ends up being whether they get the kind of audience or  
viewership or ticket sales they were looking for.  I've also found,  
though, that in most cases clients are starting to feel that ARGs are  
most useful for guaranteeing frequent engagement from a core audience  
of alpha fans and/or ARG players, and are not necessarily as useful in  
pursuing the traditional advertising grail of reach or eyeballs.

With the former, it's even more unclear what effect these campaigns  
have.  There are always the obvious pure data numbers: how many views  
each page, site or asset within the ARG received, the rate of decline  
in these numbers over the life of an entire ARG campaign, and so on,  
but unless the ARG is designed to specifically encourage a measurable  
action that brings a player into contact with explicit brand messaging  
-- such as calling an Audi dealership, or researching the specs for a  
car -- it's hard to clearly demonstrate the impact of an ARG.

Which brings me back to the idea that ARGs might be most comparable to  
branded entertainment: the sponsoring company or brand might hope that  
the branded content gets a lot of attention and interest, and as a  
branding exercise, might hope that it influences a consumer's general  
attitude toward/impressions of the brand itself -- e.g., "Oh, it's  
pretty cool that McDonald's would invest so much money in creating a  
big, branded experience like the Lost Ring." -- but will have a harder  
time correlating to traditional sales or intent-to-purchase metrics.

Sorry if this is less coherent than it could be.
(I'm a bit on the tired side right now.)

It's a really interesting question, though, and I'm curious to hear  
more about what everyone else thinks about it...

Ivan

--
Ivan Askwith
Creative Strategist
bigspaceship.com






> Hey Sven,
>
> Great to see you're pursuing both academic study and creative practice
> at the same time. :)
>
> I've considered your question about measuring the 'effect' of ARGs
> too, and found that looking at what you're measuring and what
> 'branding' is, is helpful. What is the difference between branding and
> advertising (indeed marketing and advertising)? What are the
> differences in their goals? Once you've cleared up these questions, I
> think you'll find different assessment methods emerge. I look forward
> to (hopefully) reading what you discover and propose.
>
> Also, I think you'll find that in most cases the product, service or
> company IS known during the game phase. The difference here is that it
> is not necessarily 'announced' as a commissioned project for a
> product, service or company, but the relationship to a product,
> service or company is made very early on in most ARGs. Various
> techniques include starting the game trail from a trailer in a film,
> during a TV show and so on. It is usually in the pre-game period where
> no obvious connection is made, but these are very, very short periods.
>
> Best,
> Christy
>
> On 6/15/08, Wendy Despain <wendeth at wendydespain.com> wrote:
>> Hi Sven,
>>
>> I've mostly worked in ARGs related to television shows, and believe
>> me, those clients want to measure exactly how their marketing dollars
>> are contributing to the success of the product (the show).
>>
>> One thing we did would be to measure traffic of websites over time.
>> The show aired at different times in different cities, so when a new
>> url was mentioned on the show we could track the response and see
>> spikes in traffic immediately after 35 minutes into the hour, for
>> instance.
>>
>> We reported weekly to the clients with information on web traffic,
>> forum traffic (and topics) and ARG progress. Unfortunately, all that
>> information is locked up tight and can't be made public.
>>
>> Ultimately, our ARG had to impact show ratings and that's an
>> exceptionally difficult thing to correlate, but since most of our  
>> ARGs
>> were intended to build up to the launch of the show and get people to
>> watch that first premiere episode of the season, getting a good  
>> rating
>> on that premiere showed we did something right.
>>
>> Wendy Despain
>> quantumcontent.com
>>
>>
>> On Fri, June 13, 2008 6:46 am, Sven Abraham wrote:
>>> Is there really an effect and how can this effect be proved? Are  
>>> there
>>> any reliable and adequate measuring instruments to shows a ARG is an
>>> instrument of the brand communication of marketing objectives  
>>> defined
>>> for the attainment works? Sure, you can measure all that quantity
>>> stuff
>>> like blogposts, wikis, newsarticles, etc. or could you the net
>>> promoter
>>> score... But there has to be more...
>>>
>>> It would be great to hear from you!
>>>
>>> Best
>>> Sven
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>      __________________________________________________________
>>> Gesendet von Yahoo! Mail.
>>> Dem pfiffigeren Posteingang.
>>> http://de.overview.mail.yahoo.com
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> ARG_Discuss mailing list
>>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
>>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
>>>
>>
>>
>> Wendy Despain
>> quantumcontent.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ARG_Discuss mailing list
>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
>>
> _______________________________________________
> ARG_Discuss mailing list
> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss


From Bryan.Alexander at nitle.org  Mon Jun 16 15:00:55 2008
From: Bryan.Alexander at nitle.org (Bryan Alexander)
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 15:00:55 -0400
Subject: [arg_discuss] Mystery on Fifth Avenue
In-Reply-To: <48568F00.4080507@disobey.com>
References: <48568F00.4080507@disobey.com>
Message-ID: <08119B28F4B3FF46A5747921C9FAA678B7A5DC@AA1EXCH06.office.share.org>

It's a nifty thing.  I noted a couple of responses at my Infocult blog:

1. It reminds me of the old Renaissance rich benefactor/patron thing,
given how rich the family is.  (And reminds me a little of The Game)
2. I wonder what it would be like to have a living and/or working space
which was a platform for this sort of thing.

-----Original Message-----
From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of Morbus Iff
Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 12:04 PM
To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG
Subject: [arg_discuss] Mystery on Fifth Avenue


Reposted from internal discussion:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/12/garden/12puzzle.html?_r=2&pagewanted=1
&oref=slogin

Take a look at the Slideshow.

-- 
Morbus Iff ( i'm wearing footsie jammies here )
Technical: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/au/779
Enjoy: http://www.disobey.com/ and http://www.videounderbelly.com/
aim: akaMorbus / skype: morbusiff / icq: 2927491 / jabber.org: morbus
_______________________________________________
ARG_Discuss mailing list
ARG_Discuss at igda.org
http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss

From dan at sixtostart.com  Mon Jun 16 15:26:39 2008
From: dan at sixtostart.com (Dan Hon)
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 20:26:39 +0100
Subject: [arg_discuss] Mystery on Fifth Avenue
In-Reply-To: <08119B28F4B3FF46A5747921C9FAA678B7A5DC@AA1EXCH06.office.share.org>
References: <48568F00.4080507@disobey.com>
	<08119B28F4B3FF46A5747921C9FAA678B7A5DC@AA1EXCH06.office.share.org>
Message-ID: <912DC93A-BE47-4466-A5EC-20D9CA97C05E@sixtostart.com>


--
Dan Hon, CEO, Six to Start
m: +44 7870 600 828
t: +44 33 3340 7490, f: +44 33 3340 7494




On 16 Jun 2008, at 20:00, Bryan Alexander wrote:

> It's a nifty thing.  I noted a couple of responses at my Infocult  
> blog:
>
> 1. It reminds me of the old Renaissance rich benefactor/patron thing,
> given how rich the family is.  (And reminds me a little of The Game)
> 2. I wonder what it would be like to have a living and/or working  
> space
> which was a platform for this sort of thing.

Have you guys seen Three Rings' studio? Now that's a fantastically  
designed working space...

Dan



From Bryan.Alexander at nitle.org  Mon Jun 16 15:52:15 2008
From: Bryan.Alexander at nitle.org (Bryan Alexander)
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 15:52:15 -0400
Subject: [arg_discuss] Mystery on Fifth Avenue
In-Reply-To: <912DC93A-BE47-4466-A5EC-20D9CA97C05E@sixtostart.com>
References: <48568F00.4080507@disobey.com><08119B28F4B3FF46A5747921C9FAA678B7A5DC@AA1EXCH06.office.share.org>
	<912DC93A-BE47-4466-A5EC-20D9CA97C05E@sixtostart.com>
Message-ID: <08119B28F4B3FF46A5747921C9FAA678B7A5E1@AA1EXCH06.office.share.org>

I haven't/  Field trip!

-----Original Message-----
From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of Dan Hon
Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 3:27 PM
To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG
Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] Mystery on Fifth Avenue


--
Dan Hon, CEO, Six to Start
m: +44 7870 600 828
t: +44 33 3340 7490, f: +44 33 3340 7494




On 16 Jun 2008, at 20:00, Bryan Alexander wrote:

> It's a nifty thing.  I noted a couple of responses at my Infocult  
> blog:
>
> 1. It reminds me of the old Renaissance rich benefactor/patron thing,
> given how rich the family is.  (And reminds me a little of The Game)
> 2. I wonder what it would be like to have a living and/or working  
> space
> which was a platform for this sort of thing.

Have you guys seen Three Rings' studio? Now that's a fantastically  
designed working space...

Dan


_______________________________________________
ARG_Discuss mailing list
ARG_Discuss at igda.org
http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss

From patrick at ndreams.com  Tue Jun 17 03:01:15 2008
From: patrick at ndreams.com (Patrick O'Luanaigh)
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 08:01:15 +0100
Subject: [arg_discuss] Mystery on Fifth Avenue
In-Reply-To: <08119B28F4B3FF46A5747921C9FAA678B7A5E1@AA1EXCH06.office.share.org>
References: <48568F00.4080507@disobey.com><08119B28F4B3FF46A5747921C9FAA678B7A5DC@AA1EXCH06.office.share.org><912DC93A-BE47-4466-A5EC-20D9CA97C05E@sixtostart.com>
	<08119B28F4B3FF46A5747921C9FAA678B7A5E1@AA1EXCH06.office.share.org>
Message-ID: <003201c8d047$efd6db30$4001a8c0@nDreamsRock>

Here's a link to photos of the Three Rings studio that Dan mentioned ....
WOW!

http://www.wired.com/culture/design/multimedia/2007/06/gallery_nemo_office


-----Original Message-----
From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On
Behalf Of Bryan Alexander
Sent: 16 June 2008 20:52
To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG
Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] Mystery on Fifth Avenue

I haven't/  Field trip!

-----Original Message-----
From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of Dan Hon
Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 3:27 PM
To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG
Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] Mystery on Fifth Avenue


--
Dan Hon, CEO, Six to Start
m: +44 7870 600 828
t: +44 33 3340 7490, f: +44 33 3340 7494




On 16 Jun 2008, at 20:00, Bryan Alexander wrote:

> It's a nifty thing.  I noted a couple of responses at my Infocult  
> blog:
>
> 1. It reminds me of the old Renaissance rich benefactor/patron thing,
> given how rich the family is.  (And reminds me a little of The Game)
> 2. I wonder what it would be like to have a living and/or working  
> space
> which was a platform for this sort of thing.

Have you guys seen Three Rings' studio? Now that's a fantastically  
designed working space...

Dan


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http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss


From bclark at gmdstudios.com  Wed Jun 18 10:32:23 2008
From: bclark at gmdstudios.com (Brian Clark)
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 10:32:23 -0400
Subject: [arg_discuss] The (Marketing) Effects Of Alternate Reality Games
In-Reply-To: <205633.72386.qm@web25907.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <085b01c8d150$1ffde160$6b00a8c0@PKDHEAD>

>So they're looking for new communication channels steadily to
>commercialize their products or services. An ARG seems to be
>a suitable tool for this.

Maybe, maybe not. It is a form of branded entertainment, which is actually
an old tactic in advertising. 

>The interactivity of the game and the high involvement of the
>players shall award a strong effect to the communication strategy.

But for a disproportionally small segment of the total audience. Heist was
trying to sell cars directly to the people running mission for Nisha.

>ARGs are produced effortfully and can get very expensive. 

Not really: expensive is a relative term in advertising or entertainment.
They are still "small to moderate" budget projects for the most part in the
advertising space.

>In most of the cases the product, service or company isn't announced
>in the game phase. (Ok, not in The Art of the H3eist ;-) ) 

Actually, it is almost always announced in the game phase or before the game
phase, it is far more rare for the sponsor to be completely hidden until
post game.

>You can read on the internet that this form of advertising is
>unimportant for them and they're playing the ARG because alone
>the fun counts.

Soap opera and home improvement television show viewers would say the same
thing: that's the heart of a branded entertainment strategy.

>Is there really an effect and how can this effect be proved? Are
>there any reliable and adequate measuring instruments to shows a ARG is
>an instrument of the brand communication of marketing objectives defined 
>for the attainment works? 

Short answer: Yes. You used one of the magic words ("marketing objectives")
and Ivan used one of the other magic words ("correlation"). This requires a
bit of social sciences statistics and experiment modeling, but you can
almost always rely upon "before the ARG" or "non-ARG channel marketing" as a
control group for comparison. Difference from a statistical point of view is
that your sample size will tend to be gigantic compared to other social
statistical models (because most of your data sources will be exhaustive
instead of extrapolated samples.)

Personally I think there are a few clear psychological tendencies at play on
what produces the results (like the availability heuristic and the
propinquity effect), but the marketing goals (and the familiar metrics they
already use to measure that) are always the most important to prove
correlated to your efforts. Find the bell they want rung, and ring that
bell:

http://www.revenews.com/brianclark/rocks-ripples-buzz/
http://www.revenews.com/brianclark/math-teachers-are-laughing-at-us-right-no
w/
http://www.revenews.com/brianclark/why-people-are-gaming-your-system/


>Sure, you can measure all that quantity stuff 
>like blogposts, wikis, newsarticles, etc. or could you the net promoter 
>score... But there has to be more...

None of those things are necessarily predictive of or correlated to their
marketing goal, though, are they? They are intermediary metrics: one could
imagine even an ARG that scored low on all of those intermediary metrics
(say, because it was primarily a mobile or real-world platform) and still
accomplish the goal, right?


Brian


From bclark at gmdstudios.com  Wed Jun 18 10:44:49 2008
From: bclark at gmdstudios.com (Brian Clark)
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 10:44:49 -0400
Subject: [arg_discuss] Social Interaction in ARGs
In-Reply-To: <18521337.1213251254204.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <086101c8d151$dcaed2a0$6b00a8c0@PKDHEAD>

Great work, Christy ... a few bits of data and opinion :)

I'm not sure Urns counts as "challenges are issued in different languages,
facilitating players sharing translations in order to reach a subgoal and
keep the game progressing" like you say. The narrative was translated into
all of those languages to allow players in each of those countries to
participate in a global experience, but in reality English remained the
lingua franca of the meta-narrative and the player community. I guess one
could argue that it helped create a more internationalized player base.

Conversely, Heist did use elements in foreign languages that were intended
to require the community recruiting a new native speaker (there are bits of
that in many ARGs though, as it is a puzzle type that requires recruitment.)

I also take some issue with the way you defined roleplaying: I'd make the
argument that a very large percentage of ARG players are roleplaying in a
transformative way. Jane McGonigal described that well as a player of Heist:
she was trying on an alternate Jane McGonigal. Eldritch players who went to
West Virginia also found themselves "roleplaying themselves". There's as
much "play" in an ARG as there is "game".

I'd also argue that many ARGs involve the element of "constructive play" --
the ARG is being written in collaboration between the creators and
participants. Player's just don't often glimpse how much is or isn't on
rails on the "other side of the curtain".

"Social statuses" is also the key to how community functions: there are
always "more famous players" than others in the legacy of a finished game
(which is an innate comprehension of "social status" with a coarse mechanism
like a scoreboard.)



-----Original Message-----
From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On
Behalf Of John Evans
Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 2:14 AM
To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG
Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] Social Interaction in ARGs

>Hey everyone, 
>
>The following is a resource I've been working on myself, but am thinking
>I'll add it in some way to the ARG Design section of ARGology. In it I draw
>on existing game design patterns for social interaction, and see how they
>apply to ARGs. The listing I have is just a quick draft.
>
>http://www.christydena.com/Primer/ARGDashboard_Interaction.html
>
>I'd love to hear you thoughts on examples to add, anything you don't agree
>with, and also how I should present the information. I don't find the
manner
>I have presented it at the moment user-friendly. Should I move it to the
>ARGology wiki for instance? 

That's awesome, Christy. It *does* seem like a good topic for the wiki, in
the sense that people who are experts in one game or another will be able
to talk about the activities involved in that particular game. I could
help out with moving it to the Wiki if you need some "grunt HTML/Wiki-code"
work done. ;)

Though, I have to be honest, I look at that chart and I think "So how can I
create a game that fills in some of these empty categories?". Hmmm...

--John Evans
Chaoseed Software - http://chaoseed.com

_______________________________________________
ARG_Discuss mailing list
ARG_Discuss at igda.org
http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss


From cdena at cross-mediaentertainment.com  Wed Jun 18 23:36:59 2008
From: cdena at cross-mediaentertainment.com (Christy Dena)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 13:06:59 +0930
Subject: [arg_discuss] Social Interaction in ARGs
In-Reply-To: <086101c8d151$dcaed2a0$6b00a8c0@PKDHEAD>
References: <18521337.1213251254204.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<086101c8d151$dcaed2a0$6b00a8c0@PKDHEAD>
Message-ID: <e03f95410806182036k5a0b011ar268ecb63b4c216fd@mail.gmail.com>

Hey Brian,

Welcome back! I was wondering how you were.

Thanks for taking the time to contribute detailed thoughts. :)

And yes, the table is currently data and opinion. It is just an early
draft of quick thoughts, that I thought would develop better (and more
accurately) with input from others. Currently, my observations are
prompts, not conclusions.

Urns
Are you saying that all the content in different languages was
translations. In other words, you didn't try and get players of
different languages working together? Whether it succeeded is another
issue, which I'll indicate. If so, I'll take Urns off.

Roleplay
Yes, 'roleplay' does need to be complicated further. I simply wanted
to make the point that in ARGs, designers don't usually require
players to pretend they are fantastical characters. There is play, of
course, but players aren't Orcs, Draculas or Knights (as yet). But,
this position needs to be tempered, as you intimate, with an
acknowledgement of how players *go outside themselves* to some degree.
Some players in Perplex City became short story writers, players in
Heist become retrievers etc. I'll have to look up a definition of
'roleplay' that fits this situation...unless someone on this list has
one handy...

Play & Game
Roleplay and play are related but not interchangeable concepts. But
the difference between play and game (ludics) is an interesting point
to raise in the context of social interaction patterns. Let's have a
look at Roger Caillois's definition of paidia and ludus:

"At one extreme an almost indivisible principle, common to diversion,
turbulence, free improvisation, and carefree gaiety is dominant. It
manifests a kind of uncontrolled fantasy that can be designated by the
term paidia. At the opposite extreme [?] there is a growing tendency
to bind it with arbitrary, imperative, and purposely tedious
conventions [?] I call this second component ludus." (27)

If 'play' is non-rules-based and involves freedom of choice, how do
ARG designers facilitate play between players, or play between players
and the designers?...

Constructed Play
Oh yes, ARGs are co-creative and participatory. But how do you see
this fitting in with 'social interaction' patterns? It seems that fits
into player-designer interaction (which can be designer and player
facilitated), as opposed to the designer-facilitated player-player
interaction the chart currently concentrates on.

Social Statuses
I agree that social status is a part of communities, but there is
player-facilitated social status and designer-facilitated social
status. I'm interested to know the effects of designer-facilitated
social status and whether it is necessary. What do players do to
facilitate social status? Is there more player-facilitated social
status when designers don't do any or little social-status activities?
How do players react to designer-facilitated social status? How
important is it to the game? How important is it social interaction?

Yay! It's developing!

Best,
Christy

On 6/19/08, Brian Clark <bclark at gmdstudios.com> wrote:
> Great work, Christy ... a few bits of data and opinion :)
>
> I'm not sure Urns counts as "challenges are issued in different languages,
> facilitating players sharing translations in order to reach a subgoal and
> keep the game progressing" like you say. The narrative was translated into
> all of those languages to allow players in each of those countries to
> participate in a global experience, but in reality English remained the
> lingua franca of the meta-narrative and the player community. I guess one
> could argue that it helped create a more internationalized player base.
>
> Conversely, Heist did use elements in foreign languages that were intended
> to require the community recruiting a new native speaker (there are bits of
> that in many ARGs though, as it is a puzzle type that requires recruitment.)
>
> I also take some issue with the way you defined roleplaying: I'd make the
> argument that a very large percentage of ARG players are roleplaying in a
> transformative way. Jane McGonigal described that well as a player of Heist:
> she was trying on an alternate Jane McGonigal. Eldritch players who went to
> West Virginia also found themselves "roleplaying themselves". There's as
> much "play" in an ARG as there is "game".
>
> I'd also argue that many ARGs involve the element of "constructive play" --
> the ARG is being written in collaboration between the creators and
> participants. Player's just don't often glimpse how much is or isn't on
> rails on the "other side of the curtain".
>
> "Social statuses" is also the key to how community functions: there are
> always "more famous players" than others in the legacy of a finished game
> (which is an innate comprehension of "social status" with a coarse mechanism
> like a scoreboard.)
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On
> Behalf Of John Evans
> Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 2:14 AM
> To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG
> Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] Social Interaction in ARGs
>
>>Hey everyone,
>>
>>The following is a resource I've been working on myself, but am thinking
>>I'll add it in some way to the ARG Design section of ARGology. In it I draw
>>on existing game design patterns for social interaction, and see how they
>>apply to ARGs. The listing I have is just a quick draft.
>>
>>http://www.christydena.com/Primer/ARGDashboard_Interaction.html
>>
>>I'd love to hear you thoughts on examples to add, anything you don't agree
>>with, and also how I should present the information. I don't find the
> manner
>>I have presented it at the moment user-friendly. Should I move it to the
>>ARGology wiki for instance?
>
> That's awesome, Christy. It *does* seem like a good topic for the wiki, in
> the sense that people who are experts in one game or another will be able
> to talk about the activities involved in that particular game. I could
> help out with moving it to the Wiki if you need some "grunt HTML/Wiki-code"
> work done. ;)
>
> Though, I have to be honest, I look at that chart and I think "So how can I
> create a game that fills in some of these empty categories?". Hmmm...
>
> --John Evans
> Chaoseed Software - http://chaoseed.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> ARG_Discuss mailing list
> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
>
> _______________________________________________
> ARG_Discuss mailing list
> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
>

From Bryan.Alexander at nitle.org  Thu Jun 19 07:02:26 2008
From: Bryan.Alexander at nitle.org (Bryan Alexander)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 07:02:26 -0400
Subject: [arg_discuss] Mystery on Fifth Avenue
In-Reply-To: <003201c8d047$efd6db30$4001a8c0@nDreamsRock>
References: <48568F00.4080507@disobey.com><08119B28F4B3FF46A5747921C9FAA678B7A5DC@AA1EXCH06.office.share.org><912DC93A-BE47-4466-A5EC-20D9CA97C05E@sixtostart.com><08119B28F4B3FF46A5747921C9FAA678B7A5E1@AA1EXCH06.office.share.org>
	<003201c8d047$efd6db30$4001a8c0@nDreamsRock>
Message-ID: <08119B28F4B3FF46A5747921C9FAA678B7A61E@AA1EXCH06.office.share.org>

OK, I could deal with that as a work environment.  If I had to.

Btw, I've had a bunch of non-ARG-types mention this apartment story to
me over the past week.  I wonder if it might not be a useful story to
use, now, when explaining what an ARG is.

-----Original Message-----
From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of Patrick O'Luanaigh
Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 3:01 AM
To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG'
Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] Mystery on Fifth Avenue

Here's a link to photos of the Three Rings studio that Dan mentioned
....
WOW!

http://www.wired.com/culture/design/multimedia/2007/06/gallery_nemo_offi
ce


-----Original Message-----
From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org]
On
Behalf Of Bryan Alexander
Sent: 16 June 2008 20:52
To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG
Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] Mystery on Fifth Avenue

I haven't/  Field trip!

-----Original Message-----
From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of Dan Hon
Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 3:27 PM
To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG
Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] Mystery on Fifth Avenue


--
Dan Hon, CEO, Six to Start
m: +44 7870 600 828
t: +44 33 3340 7490, f: +44 33 3340 7494




On 16 Jun 2008, at 20:00, Bryan Alexander wrote:

> It's a nifty thing.  I noted a couple of responses at my Infocult  
> blog:
>
> 1. It reminds me of the old Renaissance rich benefactor/patron thing,
> given how rich the family is.  (And reminds me a little of The Game)
> 2. I wonder what it would be like to have a living and/or working  
> space
> which was a platform for this sort of thing.

Have you guys seen Three Rings' studio? Now that's a fantastically  
designed working space...

Dan


_______________________________________________
ARG_Discuss mailing list
ARG_Discuss at igda.org
http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
_______________________________________________
ARG_Discuss mailing list
ARG_Discuss at igda.org
http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss

_______________________________________________
ARG_Discuss mailing list
ARG_Discuss at igda.org
http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss

From dan at sixtostart.com  Thu Jun 19 07:03:54 2008
From: dan at sixtostart.com (Dan Hon)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 12:03:54 +0100
Subject: [arg_discuss] Mystery on Fifth Avenue
In-Reply-To: <08119B28F4B3FF46A5747921C9FAA678B7A61E@AA1EXCH06.office.share.org>
References: <48568F00.4080507@disobey.com><08119B28F4B3FF46A5747921C9FAA678B7A5DC@AA1EXCH06.office.share.org><912DC93A-BE47-4466-A5EC-20D9CA97C05E@sixtostart.com><08119B28F4B3FF46A5747921C9FAA678B7A5E1@AA1EXCH06.office.share.org>
	<003201c8d047$efd6db30$4001a8c0@nDreamsRock>
	<08119B28F4B3FF46A5747921C9FAA678B7A61E@AA1EXCH06.office.share.org>
Message-ID: <0A84D5BA-CD20-4C3D-A7F2-8D45B5649083@sixtostart.com>

Oh, and it's been optioned by Paramount with JJ Abrams to helm.

http://www.aintitcool.com/node/37129

That didn't take long :)

Dan


On 19 Jun 2008, at 12:02, Bryan Alexander wrote:

> OK, I could deal with that as a work environment.  If I had to.
>
> Btw, I've had a bunch of non-ARG-types mention this apartment story to
> me over the past week.  I wonder if it might not be a useful story to
> use, now, when explaining what an ARG is.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org 
> ]
> On Behalf Of Patrick O'Luanaigh
> Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 3:01 AM
> To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG'
> Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] Mystery on Fifth Avenue
>
> Here's a link to photos of the Three Rings studio that Dan mentioned
> ....
> WOW!
>
> http://www.wired.com/culture/design/multimedia/2007/06/gallery_nemo_offi
> ce
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org 
> ]
> On
> Behalf Of Bryan Alexander
> Sent: 16 June 2008 20:52
> To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG
> Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] Mystery on Fifth Avenue
>
> I haven't/  Field trip!
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org 
> ]
> On Behalf Of Dan Hon
> Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 3:27 PM
> To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG
> Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] Mystery on Fifth Avenue
>
>
> --
> Dan Hon, CEO, Six to Start
> m: +44 7870 600 828
> t: +44 33 3340 7490, f: +44 33 3340 7494
>
>
>
>
> On 16 Jun 2008, at 20:00, Bryan Alexander wrote:
>
>> It's a nifty thing.  I noted a couple of responses at my Infocult
>> blog:
>>
>> 1. It reminds me of the old Renaissance rich benefactor/patron thing,
>> given how rich the family is.  (And reminds me a little of The Game)
>> 2. I wonder what it would be like to have a living and/or working
>> space
>> which was a platform for this sort of thing.
>
> Have you guys seen Three Rings' studio? Now that's a fantastically
> designed working space...
>
> Dan
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ARG_Discuss mailing list
> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
> _______________________________________________
> ARG_Discuss mailing list
> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
>
> _______________________________________________
> ARG_Discuss mailing list
> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
> _______________________________________________
> ARG_Discuss mailing list
> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss


From mj_williams at mac.com  Thu Jun 19 07:23:36 2008
From: mj_williams at mac.com (Marc Williams)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 04:23:36 -0700
Subject: [arg_discuss] More New York Stories
In-Reply-To: <08119B28F4B3FF46A5747921C9FAA678B7A61E@AA1EXCH06.office.share.org>
References: <48568F00.4080507@disobey.com>
	<08119B28F4B3FF46A5747921C9FAA678B7A5DC@AA1EXCH06.office.share.org>
	<912DC93A-BE47-4466-A5EC-20D9CA97C05E@sixtostart.com>
	<08119B28F4B3FF46A5747921C9FAA678B7A5E1@AA1EXCH06.office.share.org>
	<003201c8d047$efd6db30$4001a8c0@nDreamsRock>
	<08119B28F4B3FF46A5747921C9FAA678B7A61E@AA1EXCH06.office.share.org>
Message-ID: <7858149F-011A-1000-84EB-B64B406B8369-Webmail-10013@mac.com>

Sort of thing I'd like to use in an ARG...

http://antiadvertisingagency.com/news/subway-hd-screens-round-4



 
On Thursday, June 19, 2008, at 12:02PM, "Bryan Alexander" <Bryan.Alexander at nitle.org> wrote:
>OK, I could deal with that as a work environment.  If I had to.
>
>Btw, I've had a bunch of non-ARG-types mention this apartment story to
>me over the past week.  I wonder if it might not be a useful story to
>use, now, when explaining what an ARG is.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org]
>On Behalf Of Patrick O'Luanaigh
>Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 3:01 AM
>To: 'Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG'
>Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] Mystery on Fifth Avenue
>
>Here's a link to photos of the Three Rings studio that Dan mentioned
>....
>WOW!
>
>http://www.wired.com/culture/design/multimedia/2007/06/gallery_nemo_offi
>ce
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org]
>On
>Behalf Of Bryan Alexander
>Sent: 16 June 2008 20:52
>To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG
>Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] Mystery on Fifth Avenue
>
>I haven't/  Field trip!
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org]
>On Behalf Of Dan Hon
>Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 3:27 PM
>To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG
>Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] Mystery on Fifth Avenue
>
>
>--
>Dan Hon, CEO, Six to Start
>m: +44 7870 600 828
>t: +44 33 3340 7490, f: +44 33 3340 7494
>
>
>
>
>On 16 Jun 2008, at 20:00, Bryan Alexander wrote:
>
>> It's a nifty thing.  I noted a couple of responses at my Infocult  
>> blog:
>>
>> 1. It reminds me of the old Renaissance rich benefactor/patron thing,
>> given how rich the family is.  (And reminds me a little of The Game)
>> 2. I wonder what it would be like to have a living and/or working  
>> space
>> which was a platform for this sort of thing.
>
>Have you guys seen Three Rings' studio? Now that's a fantastically  
>designed working space...
>
>Dan
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>ARG_Discuss mailing list
>ARG_Discuss at igda.org
>http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
>_______________________________________________
>ARG_Discuss mailing list
>ARG_Discuss at igda.org
>http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
>
>_______________________________________________
>ARG_Discuss mailing list
>ARG_Discuss at igda.org
>http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
>_______________________________________________
>ARG_Discuss mailing list
>ARG_Discuss at igda.org
>http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
>
>

From bclark at gmdstudios.com  Thu Jun 19 09:36:00 2008
From: bclark at gmdstudios.com (Brian Clark)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 09:36:00 -0400
Subject: [arg_discuss] Social Interaction in ARGs
In-Reply-To: <e03f95410806182036k5a0b011ar268ecb63b4c216fd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00ed01c8d211$69bf2270$6b00a8c0@PKDHEAD>


"Are you saying that all the content in different languages was
translations."

Yup ... written in English, shipped to translators, published
multi-lingually.

"I'll have to look up a definition of 'roleplay' that fits this situation"

I think the best ones are going to be in theater instead of gaming ... the
origin is literally "to play a role". Interactive theater people sometimes
use the word "spectactor" from Augusto Boal's work in Theatre of the
Oppressed to describe that concept you're looking for:

[It refers to the dual role of those involved in the process as both
spectator and actor, as they both observe and create dramatic meaning and
action in any performance.]

"If 'play' is non-rules-based and involves freedom of choice, how do
ARG designers facilitate play between players, or play between players
and the designers?"

There are some basic tools we're all familiar with. The mother of all "play
between players" might be speculation (which is the cousin of narrative
foreshadowing), while meta-gaming happens between players and designers all
the time (such as the "hidden reference"). Most of the time, if people are
having fun, they'll start playing in addition to gaming (and as a developer
you just have to leave structure open enough to encourage and celebrate
that.) 

"But how do you see this [constructed play] fitting in with 'social
interaction' patterns?"

To some extent, but in many ways this happens first and foremost among the
players. I can't count the number of times of players have worried and
fretted about some collective action, and in the process come up with a
scenario they might face better than one we've written ... switching to
adapt to that idea is certainly an iterative design philosophy from the
developer's end, but it doesn't constitute a true collaboration with the
players (in the way, say, the Joker "take a photo with your friends" did.) 

>From an experience design perspective, the ARG as developed is like a piece
of clothing lying on a table: it is only truly "as designed" once it is
being worn. So from my perspective, that player-player constructive play is
actually the most magical element, the part that builds from the real-time
distributed communities that the Internet is capable of. We're just giving
you something to wear.

Social status ... so many questions, let me try a provocative response, a
theorem designed to be picked apart because any general statement is always
going to fail:

There is no difference between developer-designed social status and
player-designed social status, but the two can work together to reinforce
each other. Developers are just another kind of "super player".

For example, if we as developers generate a "meta story site" (think
StolenA3.com) we'll end up summarizing the action that's taken place, mixing
both characters and players together. Or, in other cases, if you don't
publish that as a developer, players will band together and end up doing
essentially the same thing ... which is what you're hinting at in your
questions. Sometimes this can happen even in the meta-game space, where I
throw off a horrible limerick on my BTS blog to link to the Unfiction
impromptu Eldritch Limerick contest that arose in cultural remix of the
Cloverfield haiku contest Rose started. 

I'll leave it others to dissect what happens when it gets as explicit as
completion or points like some games have had as that looks like muddy
ground to me (for example -- were the points in Perplex City part of the ARG
or just part of the card game or kinda sorta a little of both?) 

Ambitious chart, Christy, but a good way to tackle some of the issues.


-----Original Message-----
From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On
Behalf Of Christy Dena
Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 11:37 PM
To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG
Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] Social Interaction in ARGs

Hey Brian,

Welcome back! I was wondering how you were.

Thanks for taking the time to contribute detailed thoughts. :)

And yes, the table is currently data and opinion. It is just an early
draft of quick thoughts, that I thought would develop better (and more
accurately) with input from others. Currently, my observations are
prompts, not conclusions.

Urns
Are you saying that all the content in different languages was
translations. In other words, you didn't try and get players of
different languages working together? Whether it succeeded is another
issue, which I'll indicate. If so, I'll take Urns off.

Roleplay
Yes, 'roleplay' does need to be complicated further. I simply wanted
to make the point that in ARGs, designers don't usually require
players to pretend they are fantastical characters. There is play, of
course, but players aren't Orcs, Draculas or Knights (as yet). But,
this position needs to be tempered, as you intimate, with an
acknowledgement of how players *go outside themselves* to some degree.
Some players in Perplex City became short story writers, players in
Heist become retrievers etc. I'll have to look up a definition of
'roleplay' that fits this situation...unless someone on this list has
one handy...

Play & Game
Roleplay and play are related but not interchangeable concepts. But
the difference between play and game (ludics) is an interesting point
to raise in the context of social interaction patterns. Let's have a
look at Roger Caillois's definition of paidia and ludus:

"At one extreme an almost indivisible principle, common to diversion,
turbulence, free improvisation, and carefree gaiety is dominant. It
manifests a kind of uncontrolled fantasy that can be designated by the
term paidia. At the opposite extreme [.] there is a growing tendency
to bind it with arbitrary, imperative, and purposely tedious
conventions [.] I call this second component ludus." (27)

If 'play' is non-rules-based and involves freedom of choice, how do
ARG designers facilitate play between players, or play between players
and the designers?...

Constructed Play
Oh yes, ARGs are co-creative and participatory. But how do you see
this fitting in with 'social interaction' patterns? It seems that fits
into player-designer interaction (which can be designer and player
facilitated), as opposed to the designer-facilitated player-player
interaction the chart currently concentrates on.

Social Statuses
I agree that social status is a part of communities, but there is
player-facilitated social status and designer-facilitated social
status. I'm interested to know the effects of designer-facilitated
social status and whether it is necessary. What do players do to
facilitate social status? Is there more player-facilitated social
status when designers don't do any or little social-status activities?
How do players react to designer-facilitated social status? How
important is it to the game? How important is it social interaction?

Yay! It's developing!

Best,
Christy

On 6/19/08, Brian Clark <bclark at gmdstudios.com> wrote:
> Great work, Christy ... a few bits of data and opinion :)
>
> I'm not sure Urns counts as "challenges are issued in different languages,
> facilitating players sharing translations in order to reach a subgoal and
> keep the game progressing" like you say. The narrative was translated into
> all of those languages to allow players in each of those countries to
> participate in a global experience, but in reality English remained the
> lingua franca of the meta-narrative and the player community. I guess one
> could argue that it helped create a more internationalized player base.
>
> Conversely, Heist did use elements in foreign languages that were intended
> to require the community recruiting a new native speaker (there are bits
of
> that in many ARGs though, as it is a puzzle type that requires
recruitment.)
>
> I also take some issue with the way you defined roleplaying: I'd make the
> argument that a very large percentage of ARG players are roleplaying in a
> transformative way. Jane McGonigal described that well as a player of
Heist:
> she was trying on an alternate Jane McGonigal. Eldritch players who went
to
> West Virginia also found themselves "roleplaying themselves". There's as
> much "play" in an ARG as there is "game".
>
> I'd also argue that many ARGs involve the element of "constructive play"
--
> the ARG is being written in collaboration between the creators and
> participants. Player's just don't often glimpse how much is or isn't on
> rails on the "other side of the curtain".
>
> "Social statuses" is also the key to how community functions: there are
> always "more famous players" than others in the legacy of a finished game
> (which is an innate comprehension of "social status" with a coarse
mechanism
> like a scoreboard.)
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org]
On
> Behalf Of John Evans
> Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 2:14 AM
> To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG
> Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] Social Interaction in ARGs
>
>>Hey everyone,
>>
>>The following is a resource I've been working on myself, but am thinking
>>I'll add it in some way to the ARG Design section of ARGology. In it I
draw
>>on existing game design patterns for social interaction, and see how they
>>apply to ARGs. The listing I have is just a quick draft.
>>
>>http://www.christydena.com/Primer/ARGDashboard_Interaction.html
>>
>>I'd love to hear you thoughts on examples to add, anything you don't agree
>>with, and also how I should present the information. I don't find the
> manner
>>I have presented it at the moment user-friendly. Should I move it to the
>>ARGology wiki for instance?
>
> That's awesome, Christy. It *does* seem like a good topic for the wiki, in
> the sense that people who are experts in one game or another will be able
> to talk about the activities involved in that particular game. I could
> help out with moving it to the Wiki if you need some "grunt
HTML/Wiki-code"
> work done. ;)
>
> Though, I have to be honest, I look at that chart and I think "So how can
I
> create a game that fills in some of these empty categories?". Hmmm...
>
> --John Evans
> Chaoseed Software - http://chaoseed.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> ARG_Discuss mailing list
> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
>
> _______________________________________________
> ARG_Discuss mailing list
> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
>
_______________________________________________
ARG_Discuss mailing list
ARG_Discuss at igda.org
http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss


From cdena at cross-mediaentertainment.com  Thu Jun 19 23:15:11 2008
From: cdena at cross-mediaentertainment.com (Christy Dena)
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 12:45:11 +0930
Subject: [arg_discuss] Social Interaction in ARGs
In-Reply-To: <00ed01c8d211$69bf2270$6b00a8c0@PKDHEAD>
References: <e03f95410806182036k5a0b011ar268ecb63b4c216fd@mail.gmail.com>
	<00ed01c8d211$69bf2270$6b00a8c0@PKDHEAD>
Message-ID: <e03f95410806192015r8fac35aqc4b4e4357a5d9f94@mail.gmail.com>

Good thoughts Brian. Thanks for sharing them here...I'll be citing them. :)

I just realised one confusion of meaning though. When I referred to
"roleplay" I meant *performing a (fantastical) character* (or there
abouts) not 'playing a role' as in *participating*. These are related,
but two different things. I'm working interstate and so don't have all
my files & books with me...so I'll have to leave making this pattern
clearer for another time. And yes, I'm very familiar with Boal. Good
taste. :)

But also, on your point about 'social status' being player- and
designer-facilitated. Indeed, this is one aspect of ARGs that I find
fascinating: seeing how certain elements occur in ARGs no matter what.
Compared to many traditional artistic practices, ARG designers (for a
variety of intended and unintended reasons) remove a lot of things,
but because of the highly collaborative nature of ARGs (among other
factors) players often put a lot of them back in. I find this
interesting. Does this mean that there are certain things that an
artwork has to have?...And if so, why?...

On 6/19/08, Brian Clark <bclark at gmdstudios.com> wrote:
>
> "Are you saying that all the content in different languages was
> translations."
>
> Yup ... written in English, shipped to translators, published
> multi-lingually.
>
> "I'll have to look up a definition of 'roleplay' that fits this situation"
>
> I think the best ones are going to be in theater instead of gaming ... the
> origin is literally "to play a role". Interactive theater people sometimes
> use the word "spectactor" from Augusto Boal's work in Theatre of the
> Oppressed to describe that concept you're looking for:
>
> [It refers to the dual role of those involved in the process as both
> spectator and actor, as they both observe and create dramatic meaning and
> action in any performance.]
>
> "If 'play' is non-rules-based and involves freedom of choice, how do
> ARG designers facilitate play between players, or play between players
> and the designers?"
>
> There are some basic tools we're all familiar with. The mother of all "play
> between players" might be speculation (which is the cousin of narrative
> foreshadowing), while meta-gaming happens between players and designers all
> the time (such as the "hidden reference"). Most of the time, if people are
> having fun, they'll start playing in addition to gaming (and as a developer
> you just have to leave structure open enough to encourage and celebrate
> that.)
>
> "But how do you see this [constructed play] fitting in with 'social
> interaction' patterns?"
>
> To some extent, but in many ways this happens first and foremost among the
> players. I can't count the number of times of players have worried and
> fretted about some collective action, and in the process come up with a
> scenario they might face better than one we've written ... switching to
> adapt to that idea is certainly an iterative design philosophy from the
> developer's end, but it doesn't constitute a true collaboration with the
> players (in the way, say, the Joker "take a photo with your friends" did.)
>
> >From an experience design perspective, the ARG as developed is like a piece
> of clothing lying on a table: it is only truly "as designed" once it is
> being worn. So from my perspective, that player-player constructive play is
> actually the most magical element, the part that builds from the real-time
> distributed communities that the Internet is capable of. We're just giving
> you something to wear.
>
> Social status ... so many questions, let me try a provocative response, a
> theorem designed to be picked apart because any general statement is always
> going to fail:
>
> There is no difference between developer-designed social status and
> player-designed social status, but the two can work together to reinforce
> each other. Developers are just another kind of "super player".
>
> For example, if we as developers generate a "meta story site" (think
> StolenA3.com) we'll end up summarizing the action that's taken place, mixing
> both characters and players together. Or, in other cases, if you don't
> publish that as a developer, players will band together and end up doing
> essentially the same thing ... which is what you're hinting at in your
> questions. Sometimes this can happen even in the meta-game space, where I
> throw off a horrible limerick on my BTS blog to link to the Unfiction
> impromptu Eldritch Limerick contest that arose in cultural remix of the
> Cloverfield haiku contest Rose started.
>
> I'll leave it others to dissect what happens when it gets as explicit as
> completion or points like some games have had as that looks like muddy
> ground to me (for example -- were the points in Perplex City part of the ARG
> or just part of the card game or kinda sorta a little of both?)
>
> Ambitious chart, Christy, but a good way to tackle some of the issues.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On
> Behalf Of Christy Dena
> Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 11:37 PM
> To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG
> Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] Social Interaction in ARGs
>
> Hey Brian,
>
> Welcome back! I was wondering how you were.
>
> Thanks for taking the time to contribute detailed thoughts. :)
>
> And yes, the table is currently data and opinion. It is just an early
> draft of quick thoughts, that I thought would develop better (and more
> accurately) with input from others. Currently, my observations are
> prompts, not conclusions.
>
> Urns
> Are you saying that all the content in different languages was
> translations. In other words, you didn't try and get players of
> different languages working together? Whether it succeeded is another
> issue, which I'll indicate. If so, I'll take Urns off.
>
> Roleplay
> Yes, 'roleplay' does need to be complicated further. I simply wanted
> to make the point that in ARGs, designers don't usually require
> players to pretend they are fantastical characters. There is play, of
> course, but players aren't Orcs, Draculas or Knights (as yet). But,
> this position needs to be tempered, as you intimate, with an
> acknowledgement of how players *go outside themselves* to some degree.
> Some players in Perplex City became short story writers, players in
> Heist become retrievers etc. I'll have to look up a definition of
> 'roleplay' that fits this situation...unless someone on this list has
> one handy...
>
> Play & Game
> Roleplay and play are related but not interchangeable concepts. But
> the difference between play and game (ludics) is an interesting point
> to raise in the context of social interaction patterns. Let's have a
> look at Roger Caillois's definition of paidia and ludus:
>
> "At one extreme an almost indivisible principle, common to diversion,
> turbulence, free improvisation, and carefree gaiety is dominant. It
> manifests a kind of uncontrolled fantasy that can be designated by the
> term paidia. At the opposite extreme [.] there is a growing tendency
> to bind it with arbitrary, imperative, and purposely tedious
> conventions [.] I call this second component ludus." (27)
>
> If 'play' is non-rules-based and involves freedom of choice, how do
> ARG designers facilitate play between players, or play between players
> and the designers?...
>
> Constructed Play
> Oh yes, ARGs are co-creative and participatory. But how do you see
> this fitting in with 'social interaction' patterns? It seems that fits
> into player-designer interaction (which can be designer and player
> facilitated), as opposed to the designer-facilitated player-player
> interaction the chart currently concentrates on.
>
> Social Statuses
> I agree that social status is a part of communities, but there is
> player-facilitated social status and designer-facilitated social
> status. I'm interested to know the effects of designer-facilitated
> social status and whether it is necessary. What do players do to
> facilitate social status? Is there more player-facilitated social
> status when designers don't do any or little social-status activities?
> How do players react to designer-facilitated social status? How
> important is it to the game? How important is it social interaction?
>
> Yay! It's developing!
>
> Best,
> Christy
>
> On 6/19/08, Brian Clark <bclark at gmdstudios.com> wrote:
>> Great work, Christy ... a few bits of data and opinion :)
>>
>> I'm not sure Urns counts as "challenges are issued in different languages,
>> facilitating players sharing translations in order to reach a subgoal and
>> keep the game progressing" like you say. The narrative was translated into
>> all of those languages to allow players in each of those countries to
>> participate in a global experience, but in reality English remained the
>> lingua franca of the meta-narrative and the player community. I guess one
>> could argue that it helped create a more internationalized player base.
>>
>> Conversely, Heist did use elements in foreign languages that were intended
>> to require the community recruiting a new native speaker (there are bits
> of
>> that in many ARGs though, as it is a puzzle type that requires
> recruitment.)
>>
>> I also take some issue with the way you defined roleplaying: I'd make the
>> argument that a very large percentage of ARG players are roleplaying in a
>> transformative way. Jane McGonigal described that well as a player of
> Heist:
>> she was trying on an alternate Jane McGonigal. Eldritch players who went
> to
>> West Virginia also found themselves "roleplaying themselves". There's as
>> much "play" in an ARG as there is "game".
>>
>> I'd also argue that many ARGs involve the element of "constructive play"
> --
>> the ARG is being written in collaboration between the creators and
>> participants. Player's just don't often glimpse how much is or isn't on
>> rails on the "other side of the curtain".
>>
>> "Social statuses" is also the key to how community functions: there are
>> always "more famous players" than others in the legacy of a finished game
>> (which is an innate comprehension of "social status" with a coarse
> mechanism
>> like a scoreboard.)
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org]
> On
>> Behalf Of John Evans
>> Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 2:14 AM
>> To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG
>> Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] Social Interaction in ARGs
>>
>>>Hey everyone,
>>>
>>>The following is a resource I've been working on myself, but am thinking
>>>I'll add it in some way to the ARG Design section of ARGology. In it I
> draw
>>>on existing game design patterns for social interaction, and see how they
>>>apply to ARGs. The listing I have is just a quick draft.
>>>
>>>http://www.christydena.com/Primer/ARGDashboard_Interaction.html
>>>
>>>I'd love to hear you thoughts on examples to add, anything you don't agree
>>>with, and also how I should present the information. I don't find the
>> manner
>>>I have presented it at the moment user-friendly. Should I move it to the
>>>ARGology wiki for instance?
>>
>> That's awesome, Christy. It *does* seem like a good topic for the wiki, in
>> the sense that people who are experts in one game or another will be able
>> to talk about the activities involved in that particular game. I could
>> help out with moving it to the Wiki if you need some "grunt
> HTML/Wiki-code"
>> work done. ;)
>>
>> Though, I have to be honest, I look at that chart and I think "So how can
> I
>> create a game that fills in some of these empty categories?". Hmmm...
>>
>> --John Evans
>> Chaoseed Software - http://chaoseed.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ARG_Discuss mailing list
>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ARG_Discuss mailing list
>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
>>
> _______________________________________________
> ARG_Discuss mailing list
> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
>
> _______________________________________________
> ARG_Discuss mailing list
> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
>

From bclark at gmdstudios.com  Fri Jun 20 15:21:24 2008
From: bclark at gmdstudios.com (Brian Clark)
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 15:21:24 -0400
Subject: [arg_discuss] Social Interaction in ARGs
In-Reply-To: <e03f95410806192015r8fac35aqc4b4e4357a5d9f94@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <01b801c8d30a$d4ea2eb0$6b00a8c0@PKDHEAD>

"When I referred to "roleplay" I meant *performing a (fantastical)
character* (or there abouts) not 'playing a role' as in *participating*."

I guess I'm using a third definition ... "performing a character or putting
on a persona". Participation in the theater sense (crossing the line from
passive audience), with some implied level of "playing pretend". Just
because some people roleplay dark elves and other roleplay Civil War
soldiers don't change the roleplay aspect ... just like ARGs are capable of
more than invading aliens or missing people :) Roleplay is also used for
post-traumatic stress therapy and all kinds of other "serious use" beyond
elves and Vulcans and lightning bolts!

" Does this mean that there are certain things that an artwork has to
have?...And if so, why?"

I have an opinion about what I'm experimenting with, but I suspect there is
more than one way to skin a cat. I think my secret sauce is "iteration"
which produces a chance to optimize the story with the audience's
involvement, but that means too much pre-planning on activity-on-rails would
impact that. Acknowledging that iteration compliments the participants,
reminds them of the collaborative aspect of the fun. Yet, I see other
creators make activity-on-rails work with nuance adjustments only. 

-----Original Message-----
From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On
Behalf Of Christy Dena
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 11:15 PM
To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG
Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] Social Interaction in ARGs

Good thoughts Brian. Thanks for sharing them here...I'll be citing them. :)

I just realised one confusion of meaning though. When I referred to
"roleplay" I meant *performing a (fantastical) character* (or there
abouts) not 'playing a role' as in *participating*. These are related,
but two different things. I'm working interstate and so don't have all
my files & books with me...so I'll have to leave making this pattern
clearer for another time. And yes, I'm very familiar with Boal. Good
taste. :)

But also, on your point about 'social status' being player- and
designer-facilitated. Indeed, this is one aspect of ARGs that I find
fascinating: seeing how certain elements occur in ARGs no matter what.
Compared to many traditional artistic practices, ARG designers (for a
variety of intended and unintended reasons) remove a lot of things,
but because of the highly collaborative nature of ARGs (among other
factors) players often put a lot of them back in. I find this
interesting. Does this mean that there are certain things that an
artwork has to have?...And if so, why?...

On 6/19/08, Brian Clark <bclark at gmdstudios.com> wrote:
>
> "Are you saying that all the content in different languages was
> translations."
>
> Yup ... written in English, shipped to translators, published
> multi-lingually.
>
> "I'll have to look up a definition of 'roleplay' that fits this situation"
>
> I think the best ones are going to be in theater instead of gaming ... the
> origin is literally "to play a role". Interactive theater people sometimes
> use the word "spectactor" from Augusto Boal's work in Theatre of the
> Oppressed to describe that concept you're looking for:
>
> [It refers to the dual role of those involved in the process as both
> spectator and actor, as they both observe and create dramatic meaning and
> action in any performance.]
>
> "If 'play' is non-rules-based and involves freedom of choice, how do
> ARG designers facilitate play between players, or play between players
> and the designers?"
>
> There are some basic tools we're all familiar with. The mother of all
"play
> between players" might be speculation (which is the cousin of narrative
> foreshadowing), while meta-gaming happens between players and designers
all
> the time (such as the "hidden reference"). Most of the time, if people are
> having fun, they'll start playing in addition to gaming (and as a
developer
> you just have to leave structure open enough to encourage and celebrate
> that.)
>
> "But how do you see this [constructed play] fitting in with 'social
> interaction' patterns?"
>
> To some extent, but in many ways this happens first and foremost among the
> players. I can't count the number of times of players have worried and
> fretted about some collective action, and in the process come up with a
> scenario they might face better than one we've written ... switching to
> adapt to that idea is certainly an iterative design philosophy from the
> developer's end, but it doesn't constitute a true collaboration with the
> players (in the way, say, the Joker "take a photo with your friends" did.)
>
> >From an experience design perspective, the ARG as developed is like a
piece
> of clothing lying on a table: it is only truly "as designed" once it is
> being worn. So from my perspective, that player-player constructive play
is
> actually the most magical element, the part that builds from the real-time
> distributed communities that the Internet is capable of. We're just giving
> you something to wear.
>
> Social status ... so many questions, let me try a provocative response, a
> theorem designed to be picked apart because any general statement is
always
> going to fail:
>
> There is no difference between developer-designed social status and
> player-designed social status, but the two can work together to reinforce
> each other. Developers are just another kind of "super player".
>
> For example, if we as developers generate a "meta story site" (think
> StolenA3.com) we'll end up summarizing the action that's taken place,
mixing
> both characters and players together. Or, in other cases, if you don't
> publish that as a developer, players will band together and end up doing
> essentially the same thing ... which is what you're hinting at in your
> questions. Sometimes this can happen even in the meta-game space, where I
> throw off a horrible limerick on my BTS blog to link to the Unfiction
> impromptu Eldritch Limerick contest that arose in cultural remix of the
> Cloverfield haiku contest Rose started.
>
> I'll leave it others to dissect what happens when it gets as explicit as
> completion or points like some games have had as that looks like muddy
> ground to me (for example -- were the points in Perplex City part of the
ARG
> or just part of the card game or kinda sorta a little of both?)
>
> Ambitious chart, Christy, but a good way to tackle some of the issues.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org]
On
> Behalf Of Christy Dena
> Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 11:37 PM
> To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG
> Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] Social Interaction in ARGs
>
> Hey Brian,
>
> Welcome back! I was wondering how you were.
>
> Thanks for taking the time to contribute detailed thoughts. :)
>
> And yes, the table is currently data and opinion. It is just an early
> draft of quick thoughts, that I thought would develop better (and more
> accurately) with input from others. Currently, my observations are
> prompts, not conclusions.
>
> Urns
> Are you saying that all the content in different languages was
> translations. In other words, you didn't try and get players of
> different languages working together? Whether it succeeded is another
> issue, which I'll indicate. If so, I'll take Urns off.
>
> Roleplay
> Yes, 'roleplay' does need to be complicated further. I simply wanted
> to make the point that in ARGs, designers don't usually require
> players to pretend they are fantastical characters. There is play, of
> course, but players aren't Orcs, Draculas or Knights (as yet). But,
> this position needs to be tempered, as you intimate, with an
> acknowledgement of how players *go outside themselves* to some degree.
> Some players in Perplex City became short story writers, players in
> Heist become retrievers etc. I'll have to look up a definition of
> 'roleplay' that fits this situation...unless someone on this list has
> one handy...
>
> Play & Game
> Roleplay and play are related but not interchangeable concepts. But
> the difference between play and game (ludics) is an interesting point
> to raise in the context of social interaction patterns. Let's have a
> look at Roger Caillois's definition of paidia and ludus:
>
> "At one extreme an almost indivisible principle, common to diversion,
> turbulence, free improvisation, and carefree gaiety is dominant. It
> manifests a kind of uncontrolled fantasy that can be designated by the
> term paidia. At the opposite extreme [.] there is a growing tendency
> to bind it with arbitrary, imperative, and purposely tedious
> conventions [.] I call this second component ludus." (27)
>
> If 'play' is non-rules-based and involves freedom of choice, how do
> ARG designers facilitate play between players, or play between players
> and the designers?...
>
> Constructed Play
> Oh yes, ARGs are co-creative and participatory. But how do you see
> this fitting in with 'social interaction' patterns? It seems that fits
> into player-designer interaction (which can be designer and player
> facilitated), as opposed to the designer-facilitated player-player
> interaction the chart currently concentrates on.
>
> Social Statuses
> I agree that social status is a part of communities, but there is
> player-facilitated social status and designer-facilitated social
> status. I'm interested to know the effects of designer-facilitated
> social status and whether it is necessary. What do players do to
> facilitate social status? Is there more player-facilitated social
> status when designers don't do any or little social-status activities?
> How do players react to designer-facilitated social status? How
> important is it to the game? How important is it social interaction?
>
> Yay! It's developing!
>
> Best,
> Christy
>
> On 6/19/08, Brian Clark <bclark at gmdstudios.com> wrote:
>> Great work, Christy ... a few bits of data and opinion :)
>>
>> I'm not sure Urns counts as "challenges are issued in different
languages,
>> facilitating players sharing translations in order to reach a subgoal and
>> keep the game progressing" like you say. The narrative was translated
into
>> all of those languages to allow players in each of those countries to
>> participate in a global experience, but in reality English remained the
>> lingua franca of the meta-narrative and the player community. I guess one
>> could argue that it helped create a more internationalized player base.
>>
>> Conversely, Heist did use elements in foreign languages that were
intended
>> to require the community recruiting a new native speaker (there are bits
> of
>> that in many ARGs though, as it is a puzzle type that requires
> recruitment.)
>>
>> I also take some issue with the way you defined roleplaying: I'd make the
>> argument that a very large percentage of ARG players are roleplaying in a
>> transformative way. Jane McGonigal described that well as a player of
> Heist:
>> she was trying on an alternate Jane McGonigal. Eldritch players who went
> to
>> West Virginia also found themselves "roleplaying themselves". There's as
>> much "play" in an ARG as there is "game".
>>
>> I'd also argue that many ARGs involve the element of "constructive play"
> --
>> the ARG is being written in collaboration between the creators and
>> participants. Player's just don't often glimpse how much is or isn't on
>> rails on the "other side of the curtain".
>>
>> "Social statuses" is also the key to how community functions: there are
>> always "more famous players" than others in the legacy of a finished game
>> (which is an innate comprehension of "social status" with a coarse
> mechanism
>> like a scoreboard.)
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org]
> On
>> Behalf Of John Evans
>> Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 2:14 AM
>> To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG
>> Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] Social Interaction in ARGs
>>
>>>Hey everyone,
>>>
>>>The following is a resource I've been working on myself, but am thinking
>>>I'll add it in some way to the ARG Design section of ARGology. In it I
> draw
>>>on existing game design patterns for social interaction, and see how they
>>>apply to ARGs. The listing I have is just a quick draft.
>>>
>>>http://www.christydena.com/Primer/ARGDashboard_Interaction.html
>>>
>>>I'd love to hear you thoughts on examples to add, anything you don't
agree
>>>with, and also how I should present the information. I don't find the
>> manner
>>>I have presented it at the moment user-friendly. Should I move it to the
>>>ARGology wiki for instance?
>>
>> That's awesome, Christy. It *does* seem like a good topic for the wiki,
in
>> the sense that people who are experts in one game or another will be able
>> to talk about the activities involved in that particular game. I could
>> help out with moving it to the Wiki if you need some "grunt
> HTML/Wiki-code"
>> work done. ;)
>>
>> Though, I have to be honest, I look at that chart and I think "So how can
> I
>> create a game that fills in some of these empty categories?". Hmmm...
>>
>> --John Evans
>> Chaoseed Software - http://chaoseed.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ARG_Discuss mailing list
>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ARG_Discuss mailing list
>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
>>
> _______________________________________________
> ARG_Discuss mailing list
> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
>
> _______________________________________________
> ARG_Discuss mailing list
> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
>
_______________________________________________
ARG_Discuss mailing list
ARG_Discuss at igda.org
http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss


From cdena at cross-mediaentertainment.com  Sat Jun 21 00:02:11 2008
From: cdena at cross-mediaentertainment.com (Christy Dena)
Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 13:32:11 +0930
Subject: [arg_discuss] Social Interaction in ARGs
In-Reply-To: <01b801c8d30a$d4ea2eb0$6b00a8c0@PKDHEAD>
References: <e03f95410806192015r8fac35aqc4b4e4357a5d9f94@mail.gmail.com>
	<01b801c8d30a$d4ea2eb0$6b00a8c0@PKDHEAD>
Message-ID: <e03f95410806202102o556e334cpc8142454f4f3aa2a@mail.gmail.com>

Ah yes, well, I admittedly used *fantastical* carelessly, but it was
to make the distinction between performing a character and performing
a function clear, of which the former was the meaning used in the
chart.

As for iteration. I like the way you distinguish co-creation. :) As an
allusion to human-computer-interaction, I sometimes use the term
'H-FW-I': human-fictional-world-interaction to describe the
relationship between the fictional world and the players...how the
players contribute to a fictional world and how the fictional world
responds to the player... Which is about diegetic contributions and
acknowledgements...but also, as you say, the degree of responsiveness
(or degree of iterative design) employed by the designer.

To be clear, there may have been a little communication breakdown once
again though...as I wasn't referring what elements make an artwork
better, but to what elements possible HAVE to be present. That is,
principles of universal design -- where people's minds, for some
reason, need certain elements to be present, or present in a certain
way, in order for something to make sense (or whatever other reason).

BUT, perhaps you're saying that responsiveness, or a dynamic nature,
is something people try and do to an artwork even if it doesn't have
these qualities. If so, I certainly agree. I've argued before that
this in fact spills over to media as well...that any technology that
comes out and doesn't facilitate sharing, responsiveness and social
aspects will have to within a few years. People will do these things
around it, hack it etc and then the technology will transform from a
variety of market forces... Indeed, some scholars have argued that the
urge for participation and interactivity isn't created by technology
or indeed some dynamic artwork, but is a long-held urge that was
denied by previous technologies and artworks.


On 6/21/08, Brian Clark <bclark at gmdstudios.com> wrote:
> "When I referred to "roleplay" I meant *performing a (fantastical)
> character* (or there abouts) not 'playing a role' as in *participating*."
>
> I guess I'm using a third definition ... "performing a character or putting
> on a persona". Participation in the theater sense (crossing the line from
> passive audience), with some implied level of "playing pretend". Just
> because some people roleplay dark elves and other roleplay Civil War
> soldiers don't change the roleplay aspect ... just like ARGs are capable of
> more than invading aliens or missing people :) Roleplay is also used for
> post-traumatic stress therapy and all kinds of other "serious use" beyond
> elves and Vulcans and lightning bolts!
>
> " Does this mean that there are certain things that an artwork has to
> have?...And if so, why?"
>
> I have an opinion about what I'm experimenting with, but I suspect there is
> more than one way to skin a cat. I think my secret sauce is "iteration"
> which produces a chance to optimize the story with the audience's
> involvement, but that means too much pre-planning on activity-on-rails would
> impact that. Acknowledging that iteration compliments the participants,
> reminds them of the collaborative aspect of the fun. Yet, I see other
> creators make activity-on-rails work with nuance adjustments only.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On
> Behalf Of Christy Dena
> Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 11:15 PM
> To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG
> Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] Social Interaction in ARGs
>
> Good thoughts Brian. Thanks for sharing them here...I'll be citing them. :)
>
> I just realised one confusion of meaning though. When I referred to
> "roleplay" I meant *performing a (fantastical) character* (or there
> abouts) not 'playing a role' as in *participating*. These are related,
> but two different things. I'm working interstate and so don't have all
> my files & books with me...so I'll have to leave making this pattern
> clearer for another time. And yes, I'm very familiar with Boal. Good
> taste. :)
>
> But also, on your point about 'social status' being player- and
> designer-facilitated. Indeed, this is one aspect of ARGs that I find
> fascinating: seeing how certain elements occur in ARGs no matter what.
> Compared to many traditional artistic practices, ARG designers (for a
> variety of intended and unintended reasons) remove a lot of things,
> but because of the highly collaborative nature of ARGs (among other
> factors) players often put a lot of them back in. I find this
> interesting. Does this mean that there are certain things that an
> artwork has to have?...And if so, why?...
>
> On 6/19/08, Brian Clark <bclark at gmdstudios.com> wrote:
>>
>> "Are you saying that all the content in different languages was
>> translations."
>>
>> Yup ... written in English, shipped to translators, published
>> multi-lingually.
>>
>> "I'll have to look up a definition of 'roleplay' that fits this situation"
>>
>> I think the best ones are going to be in theater instead of gaming ... the
>> origin is literally "to play a role". Interactive theater people sometimes
>> use the word "spectactor" from Augusto Boal's work in Theatre of the
>> Oppressed to describe that concept you're looking for:
>>
>> [It refers to the dual role of those involved in the process as both
>> spectator and actor, as they both observe and create dramatic meaning and
>> action in any performance.]
>>
>> "If 'play' is non-rules-based and involves freedom of choice, how do
>> ARG designers facilitate play between players, or play between players
>> and the designers?"
>>
>> There are some basic tools we're all familiar with. The mother of all
> "play
>> between players" might be speculation (which is the cousin of narrative
>> foreshadowing), while meta-gaming happens between players and designers
> all
>> the time (such as the "hidden reference"). Most of the time, if people are
>> having fun, they'll start playing in addition to gaming (and as a
> developer
>> you just have to leave structure open enough to encourage and celebrate
>> that.)
>>
>> "But how do you see this [constructed play] fitting in with 'social
>> interaction' patterns?"
>>
>> To some extent, but in many ways this happens first and foremost among the
>> players. I can't count the number of times of players have worried and
>> fretted about some collective action, and in the process come up with a
>> scenario they might face better than one we've written ... switching to
>> adapt to that idea is certainly an iterative design philosophy from the
>> developer's end, but it doesn't constitute a true collaboration with the
>> players (in the way, say, the Joker "take a photo with your friends" did.)
>>
>> >From an experience design perspective, the ARG as developed is like a
> piece
>> of clothing lying on a table: it is only truly "as designed" once it is
>> being worn. So from my perspective, that player-player constructive play
> is
>> actually the most magical element, the part that builds from the real-time
>> distributed communities that the Internet is capable of. We're just giving
>> you something to wear.
>>
>> Social status ... so many questions, let me try a provocative response, a
>> theorem designed to be picked apart because any general statement is
> always
>> going to fail:
>>
>> There is no difference between developer-designed social status and
>> player-designed social status, but the two can work together to reinforce
>> each other. Developers are just another kind of "super player".
>>
>> For example, if we as developers generate a "meta story site" (think
>> StolenA3.com) we'll end up summarizing the action that's taken place,
> mixing
>> both characters and players together. Or, in other cases, if you don't
>> publish that as a developer, players will band together and end up doing
>> essentially the same thing ... which is what you're hinting at in your
>> questions. Sometimes this can happen even in the meta-game space, where I
>> throw off a horrible limerick on my BTS blog to link to the Unfiction
>> impromptu Eldritch Limerick contest that arose in cultural remix of the
>> Cloverfield haiku contest Rose started.
>>
>> I'll leave it others to dissect what happens when it gets as explicit as
>> completion or points like some games have had as that looks like muddy
>> ground to me (for example -- were the points in Perplex City part of the
> ARG
>> or just part of the card game or kinda sorta a little of both?)
>>
>> Ambitious chart, Christy, but a good way to tackle some of the issues.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org]
> On
>> Behalf Of Christy Dena
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 11:37 PM
>> To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG
>> Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] Social Interaction in ARGs
>>
>> Hey Brian,
>>
>> Welcome back! I was wondering how you were.
>>
>> Thanks for taking the time to contribute detailed thoughts. :)
>>
>> And yes, the table is currently data and opinion. It is just an early
>> draft of quick thoughts, that I thought would develop better (and more
>> accurately) with input from others. Currently, my observations are
>> prompts, not conclusions.
>>
>> Urns
>> Are you saying that all the content in different languages was
>> translations. In other words, you didn't try and get players of
>> different languages working together? Whether it succeeded is another
>> issue, which I'll indicate. If so, I'll take Urns off.
>>
>> Roleplay
>> Yes, 'roleplay' does need to be complicated further. I simply wanted
>> to make the point that in ARGs, designers don't usually require
>> players to pretend they are fantastical characters. There is play, of
>> course, but players aren't Orcs, Draculas or Knights (as yet). But,
>> this position needs to be tempered, as you intimate, with an
>> acknowledgement of how players *go outside themselves* to some degree.
>> Some players in Perplex City became short story writers, players in
>> Heist become retrievers etc. I'll have to look up a definition of
>> 'roleplay' that fits this situation...unless someone on this list has
>> one handy...
>>
>> Play & Game
>> Roleplay and play are related but not interchangeable concepts. But
>> the difference between play and game (ludics) is an interesting point
>> to raise in the context of social interaction patterns. Let's have a
>> look at Roger Caillois's definition of paidia and ludus:
>>
>> "At one extreme an almost indivisible principle, common to diversion,
>> turbulence, free improvisation, and carefree gaiety is dominant. It
>> manifests a kind of uncontrolled fantasy that can be designated by the
>> term paidia. At the opposite extreme [.] there is a growing tendency
>> to bind it with arbitrary, imperative, and purposely tedious
>> conventions [.] I call this second component ludus." (27)
>>
>> If 'play' is non-rules-based and involves freedom of choice, how do
>> ARG designers facilitate play between players, or play between players
>> and the designers?...
>>
>> Constructed Play
>> Oh yes, ARGs are co-creative and participatory. But how do you see
>> this fitting in with 'social interaction' patterns? It seems that fits
>> into player-designer interaction (which can be designer and player
>> facilitated), as opposed to the designer-facilitated player-player
>> interaction the chart currently concentrates on.
>>
>> Social Statuses
>> I agree that social status is a part of communities, but there is
>> player-facilitated social status and designer-facilitated social
>> status. I'm interested to know the effects of designer-facilitated
>> social status and whether it is necessary. What do players do to
>> facilitate social status? Is there more player-facilitated social
>> status when designers don't do any or little social-status activities?
>> How do players react to designer-facilitated social status? How
>> important is it to the game? How important is it social interaction?
>>
>> Yay! It's developing!
>>
>> Best,
>> Christy
>>
>> On 6/19/08, Brian Clark <bclark at gmdstudios.com> wrote:
>>> Great work, Christy ... a few bits of data and opinion :)
>>>
>>> I'm not sure Urns counts as "challenges are issued in different
> languages,
>>> facilitating players sharing translations in order to reach a subgoal and
>>> keep the game progressing" like you say. The narrative was translated
> into
>>> all of those languages to allow players in each of those countries to
>>> participate in a global experience, but in reality English remained the
>>> lingua franca of the meta-narrative and the player community. I guess one
>>> could argue that it helped create a more internationalized player base.
>>>
>>> Conversely, Heist did use elements in foreign languages that were
> intended
>>> to require the community recruiting a new native speaker (there are bits
>> of
>>> that in many ARGs though, as it is a puzzle type that requires
>> recruitment.)
>>>
>>> I also take some issue with the way you defined roleplaying: I'd make the
>>> argument that a very large percentage of ARG players are roleplaying in a
>>> transformative way. Jane McGonigal described that well as a player of
>> Heist:
>>> she was trying on an alternate Jane McGonigal. Eldritch players who went
>> to
>>> West Virginia also found themselves "roleplaying themselves". There's as
>>> much "play" in an ARG as there is "game".
>>>
>>> I'd also argue that many ARGs involve the element of "constructive play"
>> --
>>> the ARG is being written in collaboration between the creators and
>>> participants. Player's just don't often glimpse how much is or isn't on
>>> rails on the "other side of the curtain".
>>>
>>> "Social statuses" is also the key to how community functions: there are
>>> always "more famous players" than others in the legacy of a finished game
>>> (which is an innate comprehension of "social status" with a coarse
>> mechanism
>>> like a scoreboard.)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org]
>> On
>>> Behalf Of John Evans
>>> Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 2:14 AM
>>> To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG
>>> Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] Social Interaction in ARGs
>>>
>>>>Hey everyone,
>>>>
>>>>The following is a resource I've been working on myself, but am thinking
>>>>I'll add it in some way to the ARG Design section of ARGology. In it I
>> draw
>>>>on existing game design patterns for social interaction, and see how they
>>>>apply to ARGs. The listing I have is just a quick draft.
>>>>
>>>>http://www.christydena.com/Primer/ARGDashboard_Interaction.html
>>>>
>>>>I'd love to hear you thoughts on examples to add, anything you don't
> agree
>>>>with, and also how I should present the information. I don't find the
>>> manner
>>>>I have presented it at the moment user-friendly. Should I move it to the
>>>>ARGology wiki for instance?
>>>
>>> That's awesome, Christy. It *does* seem like a good topic for the wiki,
> in
>>> the sense that people who are experts in one game or another will be able
>>> to talk about the activities involved in that particular game. I could
>>> help out with moving it to the Wiki if you need some "grunt
>> HTML/Wiki-code"
>>> work done. ;)
>>>
>>> Though, I have to be honest, I look at that chart and I think "So how can
>> I
>>> create a game that fills in some of these empty categories?". Hmmm...
>>>
>>> --John Evans
>>> Chaoseed Software - http://chaoseed.com
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> ARG_Discuss mailing list
>>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
>>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> ARG_Discuss mailing list
>>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
>>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ARG_Discuss mailing list
>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ARG_Discuss mailing list
>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
>>
> _______________________________________________
> ARG_Discuss mailing list
> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
>
> _______________________________________________
> ARG_Discuss mailing list
> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
>

From marcus.helm at gmail.com  Sun Jun 22 04:20:30 2008
From: marcus.helm at gmail.com (Hugh Davies)
Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 18:20:30 +1000
Subject: [arg_discuss] Social Interaction in ARGs
In-Reply-To: <e03f95410806202102o556e334cpc8142454f4f3aa2a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e03f95410806192015r8fac35aqc4b4e4357a5d9f94@mail.gmail.com>
	<01b801c8d30a$d4ea2eb0$6b00a8c0@PKDHEAD>
	<e03f95410806202102o556e334cpc8142454f4f3aa2a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4ca6fcda0806220120o43d4ee46o7d5c9f75e0b6ced2@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all

Im just catching up on this discussion and just wanted to weigh in on the
idea of "playing/performing  a role"

I recon that this might be an example of Jane Mcgonigals notion of
Performance of Belief within the field of Pervasive Games. This is similar
to the suspension of disbelief associated with cinema audiences but more
active; while suspension of disbelief implies a tacit agreement of an
audience to defer their judgment and accept fiction as truth in exchange for
entertainment, performance of belief requires players to also become actors
not just spectators, performing within the reality of the game, thus
creating greater immersion both for themselves and for others.


Jane discusses the notion of performance of belief and give a brief history
of the credulous spectator here:



http://www.avantgame.com/MCGONIGAL%20A%20Real%20Little%20Game%20DiGRA%202003.pdf

Im also interested in Brians comment:

>From an experience design perspective, the ARG as developed is like a piece
of clothing lying on a table: it is only truly "as designed" once it is
being worn.

I think that there is a unique open sourceness to ARG's in that players
activly shape the game into the experience that that want to have, create
their own intruege and level of involvement. Im reminded of the horror
cinema technique of showing as little of the evil as possible to allow it to
individualise itself in the minds of each viewer.

hugh

From cdena at cross-mediaentertainment.com  Sun Jun 22 22:50:23 2008
From: cdena at cross-mediaentertainment.com (Christy Dena)
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 12:20:23 +0930
Subject: [arg_discuss] Social Interaction in ARGs
In-Reply-To: <4ca6fcda0806220120o43d4ee46o7d5c9f75e0b6ced2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e03f95410806192015r8fac35aqc4b4e4357a5d9f94@mail.gmail.com>
	<01b801c8d30a$d4ea2eb0$6b00a8c0@PKDHEAD>
	<e03f95410806202102o556e334cpc8142454f4f3aa2a@mail.gmail.com>
	<4ca6fcda0806220120o43d4ee46o7d5c9f75e0b6ced2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e03f95410806221950x22ca0e4eg44cf5064a6e225ae@mail.gmail.com>

Cool. ARGs really are about performance in so many ways.

But that still isn't the aspect of roleplay I was talking about. I'm
after a definition that indicates how much the 'performance' of the
player differs from their everyday self. There must be a continuum or
something that shows the difference between a player performing an Orc
or Shakespeare on the one end and being themselves but doing something
they have never done before on the other (and all that is in between).
[I don't have any of my books with me and am on short periods of
dial-up and so can't research this myself right now.] Hmm, perhaps I
shouldn't of put the draft up just yet after all. :\

Anyway, I think ARG players are usually called on to do more on the
'other' end of the spectrum. But, I may be entirely wrong and so would
love to know more. Jan sent me a great example of roleplaying in her
ARG. I'd love to see others.

John Evans has actually moved all of the content into the ARGology
wiki. So, please, feel free to hack and add at will!:

http://www.argology.org/wiki/index.php?title=Social_Interaction

A start may be to add a quote from Jane's essay in the roleplay section!

OK, over and out. :)

On 6/22/08, Hugh Davies <marcus.helm at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi all
>
> Im just catching up on this discussion and just wanted to weigh in on the
> idea of "playing/performing  a role"
>
> I recon that this might be an example of Jane Mcgonigals notion of
> Performance of Belief within the field of Pervasive Games. This is similar
> to the suspension of disbelief associated with cinema audiences but more
> active; while suspension of disbelief implies a tacit agreement of an
> audience to defer their judgment and accept fiction as truth in exchange for
> entertainment, performance of belief requires players to also become actors
> not just spectators, performing within the reality of the game, thus
> creating greater immersion both for themselves and for others.
>
>
> Jane discusses the notion of performance of belief and give a brief history
> of the credulous spectator here:
>
>
>
> http://www.avantgame.com/MCGONIGAL%20A%20Real%20Little%20Game%20DiGRA%202003.pdf
>
> Im also interested in Brians comment:
>
> >From an experience design perspective, the ARG as developed is like a piece
> of clothing lying on a table: it is only truly "as designed" once it is
> being worn.
>
> I think that there is a unique open sourceness to ARG's in that players
> activly shape the game into the experience that that want to have, create
> their own intruege and level of involvement. Im reminded of the horror
> cinema technique of showing as little of the evil as possible to allow it to
> individualise itself in the minds of each viewer.
>
> hugh
> _______________________________________________
> ARG_Discuss mailing list
> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
>

From walz at arch.ethz.ch  Mon Jun 23 06:51:15 2008
From: walz at arch.ethz.ch (Steffen P. Walz)
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 12:51:15 +0200
Subject: [arg_discuss] Social Interaction in ARGs
In-Reply-To: <e03f95410806221950x22ca0e4eg44cf5064a6e225ae@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e03f95410806192015r8fac35aqc4b4e4357a5d9f94@mail.gmail.com>
	<01b801c8d30a$d4ea2eb0$6b00a8c0@PKDHEAD>
	<e03f95410806202102o556e334cpc8142454f4f3aa2a@mail.gmail.com>
	<4ca6fcda0806220120o43d4ee46o7d5c9f75e0b6ced2@mail.gmail.com>
	<e03f95410806221950x22ca0e4eg44cf5064a6e225ae@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C582C475-8177-4C2C-BD5B-D8DC4B2A67F2@arch.ethz.ch>

hi christy & all,

not sure if this is helpful for the social interaction discussion:

for my ongiong phd thesis about the architecture of pervasive games  
(not yet completed, and tentatively titled "the ludic machine"),  
amongst other stuff, i put together an interlinked inventory of  
smallish essays / statements that discuss particular spatial  
archetypes which have some 'archaeological' value for pervasive game  
design - i call these entries "play-grounds".

one of these essays is concerned with the space of the "theatre" and  
the relation of the theatrical space to role-playing. for said essay,  
i have created a little matrix with two continua setting into  
relation space and performance mode, and plotted some examples into  
the grid:

1) 4th wall - Broken 4th Wall - i.e. from clear actor/spectator  
separation to actor-player identicalness;
2) Proscenium Theatre - Undefined space - i.e. from a strict  
demarcation of actor area and player area to an undefined performance  
space.

find a preliminary version of the text including the matrix here:

http://wiki.caad.arch.ethz.ch/Organisation/LudicMachine

hope this inspires the discussion - this may not be exactly on social  
interaction as discussed in the past postings, but may help to  
understand how historically, there have been attempts to involve an  
audience into a pre-programmed play. or so,-).

spw


Am 23.06.2008 um 04:50 schrieb Christy Dena:

> Cool. ARGs really are about performance in so many ways.
>
> But that still isn't the aspect of roleplay I was talking about. I'm
> after a definition that indicates how much the 'performance' of the
> player differs from their everyday self. There must be a continuum or
> something that shows the difference between a player performing an Orc
> or Shakespeare on the one end and being themselves but doing something
> they have never done before on the other (and all that is in between).
> [I don't have any of my books with me and am on short periods of
> dial-up and so can't research this myself right now.] Hmm, perhaps I
> shouldn't of put the draft up just yet after all. :\
>
> Anyway, I think ARG players are usually called on to do more on the
> 'other' end of the spectrum. But, I may be entirely wrong and so would
> love to know more. Jan sent me a great example of roleplaying in her
> ARG. I'd love to see others.
>
> John Evans has actually moved all of the content into the ARGology
> wiki. So, please, feel free to hack and add at will!:
>
> http://www.argology.org/wiki/index.php?title=Social_Interaction
>
> A start may be to add a quote from Jane's essay in the roleplay  
> section!
>
> OK, over and out. :)
>
> On 6/22/08, Hugh Davies <marcus.helm at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi all
>>
>> Im just catching up on this discussion and just wanted to weigh in  
>> on the
>> idea of "playing/performing  a role"
>>
>> I recon that this might be an example of Jane Mcgonigals notion of
>> Performance of Belief within the field of Pervasive Games. This is  
>> similar
>> to the suspension of disbelief associated with cinema audiences  
>> but more
>> active; while suspension of disbelief implies a tacit agreement of an
>> audience to defer their judgment and accept fiction as truth in  
>> exchange for
>> entertainment, performance of belief requires players to also  
>> become actors
>> not just spectators, performing within the reality of the game, thus
>> creating greater immersion both for themselves and for others.
>>
>>
>> Jane discusses the notion of performance of belief and give a  
>> brief history
>> of the credulous spectator here:
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.avantgame.com/MCGONIGAL%20A%20Real%20Little%20Game% 
>> 20DiGRA%202003.pdf
>>
>> Im also interested in Brians comment:
>>
>>> From an experience design perspective, the ARG as developed is  
>>> like a piece
>> of clothing lying on a table: it is only truly "as designed" once  
>> it is
>> being worn.
>>
>> I think that there is a unique open sourceness to ARG's in that  
>> players
>> activly shape the game into the experience that that want to have,  
>> create
>> their own intruege and level of involvement. Im reminded of the  
>> horror
>> cinema technique of showing as little of the evil as possible to  
>> allow it to
>> individualise itself in the minds of each viewer.
>>
>> hugh
>> _______________________________________________
>> ARG_Discuss mailing list
>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
>>
> _______________________________________________
> ARG_Discuss mailing list
> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
>

__
Steffen P. Walz
ETH Zurich
Game Design Research                        Department of Architecture
Phone +41 44 658 16 36                       CAAD Group, HIL E 15.1
E-Mail walz at arch.ethz.ch                     CH-8093 Zurich, Switzerland

http://spw.playbe.com (my playce)
http://wiki.caad.arch.ethz.ch/Organisation/SteffenPWalz (academic)




From mmonello at campfirenyc.com  Mon Jun 23 10:53:32 2008
From: mmonello at campfirenyc.com (Mike Monello)
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 07:53:32 -0700
Subject: [arg_discuss] Social Interaction in ARGs
In-Reply-To: <C582C475-8177-4C2C-BD5B-D8DC4B2A67F2@arch.ethz.ch>
Message-ID: <C485312C.B09D%mmonello@campfirenyc.com>

I am the furthest thing from an academic you can get, but it seems to me that when a player knowingly interacts with a fictional character they have crossed the threshold into role-playing. Whether they send an email or
go on a mission or more involved experience, they have made that jump into the game space, even if the character they've chosen is a close version of themselves. I don't recognize a difference between someone playing a character exactly like themselves in a known fiction and someone playing an Orc or any other fantastical creature - both are operating within the safety and knowledge of a fictional framework that allows them to make choices and play in a way that real life absolutely would not.

Either that or I've totally missed what y'all smart folks are talkin' about!  :)

---
Mike Monello
Partner, Campfire
http://www.campfirenyc.com







Am 23.06.2008 um 04:50 schrieb Christy Dena:

> Cool. ARGs really are about performance in so many ways.
>
> But that still isn't the aspect of roleplay I was talking about. I'm
> after a definition that indicates how much the 'performance' of the
> player differs from their everyday self. There must be a continuum or
> something that shows the difference between a player performing an Orc
> or Shakespeare on the one end and being themselves but doing something
> they have never done before on the other (and all that is in between).
> [I don't have any of my books with me and am on short periods of
> dial-up and so can't research this myself right now.] Hmm, perhaps I
> shouldn't of put the draft up just yet after all. :\
>
> Anyway, I think ARG players are usually called on to do more on the
> 'other' end of the spectrum. But, I may be entirely wrong and so would
> love to know more. Jan sent me a great example of roleplaying in her
> ARG. I'd love to see others.
>
> John Evans has actually moved all of the content into the ARGology
> wiki. So, please, feel free to hack and add at will!:
>
> http://www.argology.org/wiki/index.php?title=Social_Interaction
>
> A start may be to add a quote from Jane's essay in the roleplay
> section!
>



From wendeth at wendydespain.com  Mon Jun 23 17:50:06 2008
From: wendeth at wendydespain.com (Wendy Despain)
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 14:50:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [arg_discuss] Social Interaction in ARGs
In-Reply-To: <C485312C.B09D%mmonello@campfirenyc.com>
References: <C582C475-8177-4C2C-BD5B-D8DC4B2A67F2@arch.ethz.ch>
	<C485312C.B09D%mmonello@campfirenyc.com>
Message-ID: <1628.71.220.244.58.1214257806.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com>

I'm with you, Mike. I think as soon as a player treats a character as
real, which they know (or suspect) to be a fictional construct of some
kind, that puts them in the realm of roleplay. They're placing their
own persona into the game.

Also, I don't think there's really any difference between a person
playing an Orc (or Shakespeare) and themselves. The vast majority of
players are not skilled enough to behave in any manner other than
their own, if that makes sense. And this isn't bashing the player's
skill levels - it's an observation of how rare real acting talent is.
So even though the Orc mask may give them permission to loosen up and
not worry so much about what other people might think - they're still
essentially being themselves.

But I'll provide the same caveat as Mike as well. I'm no academic. So
I may just be missing the point.

Wendy


On Mon, June 23, 2008 7:53 am, Mike Monello wrote:
> I am the furthest thing from an academic you can get, but it seems to
> me that when a player knowingly interacts with a fictional character
> they have crossed the threshold into role-playing. Whether they send
> an email or
> go on a mission or more involved experience, they have made that jump
> into the game space, even if the character they've chosen is a close
> version of themselves. I don't recognize a difference between someone
> playing a character exactly like themselves in a known fiction and
> someone playing an Orc or any other fantastical creature - both are
> operating within the safety and knowledge of a fictional framework
> that allows them to make choices and play in a way that real life
> absolutely would not.
>
> Either that or I've totally missed what y'all smart folks are talkin'
> about!  :)
>
> ---
> Mike Monello
> Partner, Campfire
> http://www.campfirenyc.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Am 23.06.2008 um 04:50 schrieb Christy Dena:
>
>> Cool. ARGs really are about performance in so many ways.
>>
>> But that still isn't the aspect of roleplay I was talking about. I'm
>> after a definition that indicates how much the 'performance' of the
>> player differs from their everyday self. There must be a continuum
>> or
>> something that shows the difference between a player performing an
>> Orc
>> or Shakespeare on the one end and being themselves but doing
>> something
>> they have never done before on the other (and all that is in
>> between).
>> [I don't have any of my books with me and am on short periods of
>> dial-up and so can't research this myself right now.] Hmm, perhaps I
>> shouldn't of put the draft up just yet after all. :\
>>
>> Anyway, I think ARG players are usually called on to do more on the
>> 'other' end of the spectrum. But, I may be entirely wrong and so
>> would
>> love to know more. Jan sent me a great example of roleplaying in her
>> ARG. I'd love to see others.
>>
>> John Evans has actually moved all of the content into the ARGology
>> wiki. So, please, feel free to hack and add at will!:
>>
>> http://www.argology.org/wiki/index.php?title=Social_Interaction
>>
>> A start may be to add a quote from Jane's essay in the roleplay
>> section!
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ARG_Discuss mailing list
> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
>


Wendy Despain
quantumcontent.com


From cdena at cross-mediaentertainment.com  Tue Jun 24 00:06:07 2008
From: cdena at cross-mediaentertainment.com (Christy Dena)
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 13:36:07 +0930
Subject: [arg_discuss] Social Interaction in ARGs
In-Reply-To: <1628.71.220.244.58.1214257806.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com>
References: <C582C475-8177-4C2C-BD5B-D8DC4B2A67F2@arch.ethz.ch>
	<C485312C.B09D%mmonello@campfirenyc.com>
	<1628.71.220.244.58.1214257806.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com>
Message-ID: <e03f95410806232106s7e640450kb2a6a4835d072cf3@mail.gmail.com>


Ah, you keep pulling me in! :) Great! And thanks Steffen, I look forward to reading your work. :)

I think the divergence in views about this subject is not about academic versus non-academic perspectives, but is due to different paradigms about 'roleplaying'. There have been many references here to roleplay as a type of performance, where players take on some role in an ARG, they have a function, are part of the fiction. I believe this view of roleplay is a discussion about *participation*. But there is another paradigm for talking about 'roleplay', and that is the genre of role-playing games. In this paradigm, the discussion is about participating through characters. I think the second paradigm is a subset of the first. For me, I wasn't talking about whether players participate in an ARG (that is a given), I was talking about one of the ways that participation is actuated: through the creation of characters. 

I do think there are great differences in the design and experience of role-playing versus non-playing games, and a difference between role-playing in ARGs compared to role-playing in other games (and other creative formats). 
Here is the wikipedia definition of a 'role-playing game' (RPG):

"A role-playing game (RPG; often roleplaying game) is a game in which the participants assume the roles of fictional characters and collaboratively create or follow stories."

But perhaps more helpful, is this definition by MMORPG researcher Nick Yee, who defines 'role-playing' as:

"creating a novel persona for your character that fits in the context of the game world and interacting with others through that persona"

Source: Nick Yee's research series on Role-Playing in MMORPGs (http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/archives/001524.php). In Yee's research on the 'Faces of Role-Playing' (http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/archives/001526.php), he found that there is a 'spectrum of character personas' that players create; and 'there's a spectrum of character development that might be labeled as Prescribed to Open-Ended'. Yee spoke about the 'Protocols of Role-Playing' (http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/archives/001527.php?page=1) and in the demographics (http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/archives/001525.php), how many players create backstories for their own characters, and for their fellow players' characters as well (among other things).

I think ARGs do not have the same role-playing as MMORPGs, and they do not have the same as theatre productions. There are many similiarites of course, but there are differences. I'll hazard some questions that may provoke some insights into what these differences are: 

* Is creating a character a requirement to playing (or just participating in) an ARG?
* How many characters in ARGs are prescribed by the PMs & how many created by the player? (what happens when a player creates their own character?)
* How many player-characters in ARGs have a (PM or player-created) backstory?
* How many player-characters in ARGs have constructed relationships with other player-creators?
...

But the biggest difference perhaps lies in the need to create a "character that fits in the context of the game". To me, most ARGs include current-time Earth, indeed the player's reality, in the context of the game. That is why they do not NEED to create a novel persona...

For those interested, there are some great essays on RPGs in Jason Rutter's Game Bibliography: http://digiplay.info/search/node/RPGs. 

I look forward your thoughts... :)



On 6/24/08, Wendy Despain <wendeth at wendydespain.com> wrote:
> I'm with you, Mike. I think as soon as a player treats a character as
> real, which they know (or suspect) to be a fictional construct of some
> kind, that puts them in the realm of roleplay. They're placing their
> own persona into the game.
>
> Also, I don't think there's really any difference between a person
> playing an Orc (or Shakespeare) and themselves. The vast majority of
> players are not skilled enough to behave in any manner other than
> their own, if that makes sense. And this isn't bashing the player's
> skill levels - it's an observation of how rare real acting talent is.
> So even though the Orc mask may give them permission to loosen up and
> not worry so much about what other people might think - they're still
> essentially being themselves.
>
> But I'll provide the same caveat as Mike as well. I'm no academic. So
> I may just be missing the point.
>
> Wendy
>
>
> On Mon, June 23, 2008 7:53 am, Mike Monello wrote:
>> I am the furthest thing from an academic you can get, but it seems to
>> me that when a player knowingly interacts with a fictional character
>> they have crossed the threshold into role-playing. Whether they send
>> an email or
>> go on a mission or more involved experience, they have made that jump
>> into the game space, even if the character they've chosen is a close
>> version of themselves. I don't recognize a difference between someone
>> playing a character exactly like themselves in a known fiction and
>> someone playing an Orc or any other fantastical creature - both are
>> operating within the safety and knowledge of a fictional framework
>> that allows them to make choices and play in a way that real life
>> absolutely would not.
>>
>> Either that or I've totally missed what y'all smart folks are talkin'
>> about!  :)
>>
>> ---
>> Mike Monello
>> Partner, Campfire
>> http://www.campfirenyc.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Am 23.06.2008 um 04:50 schrieb Christy Dena:
>>
>>> Cool. ARGs really are about performance in so many ways.
>>>
>>> But that still isn't the aspect of roleplay I was talking about. I'm
>>> after a definition that indicates how much the 'performance' of the
>>> player differs from their everyday self. There must be a continuum
>>> or
>>> something that shows the difference between a player performing an
>>> Orc
>>> or Shakespeare on the one end and being themselves but doing
>>> something
>>> they have never done before on the other (and all that is in
>>> between).
>>> [I don't have any of my books with me and am on short periods of
>>> dial-up and so can't research this myself right now.] Hmm, perhaps I
>>> shouldn't of put the draft up just yet after all. :\
>>>
>>> Anyway, I think ARG players are usually called on to do more on the
>>> 'other' end of the spectrum. But, I may be entirely wrong and so
>>> would
>>> love to know more. Jan sent me a great example of roleplaying in her
>>> ARG. I'd love to see others.
>>>
>>> John Evans has actually moved all of the content into the ARGology
>>> wiki. So, please, feel free to hack and add at will!:
>>>
>>> http://www.argology.org/wiki/index.php?title=Social_Interaction
>>>
>>> A start may be to add a quote from Jane's essay in the roleplay
>>> section!
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ARG_Discuss mailing list
>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
>>
>
>
> Wendy Despain
> quantumcontent.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> ARG_Discuss mailing list
> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
>

From Markus.Montola at uta.fi  Tue Jun 24 03:13:16 2008
From: Markus.Montola at uta.fi (Markus Montola)
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 10:13:16 +0300
Subject: [arg_discuss] Social Interaction in ARGs
In-Reply-To: <1628.71.220.244.58.1214257806.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com>
References: <C582C475-8177-4C2C-BD5B-D8DC4B2A67F2@arch.ethz.ch>
	<C485312C.B09D%mmonello@campfirenyc.com>
	<1628.71.220.244.58.1214257806.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com>
Message-ID: <20080624101316.pppgch2iilw8804w@imp2.uta.fi>

It all depends on how you define role-play. A good definition of  
pretend play (iirc by Lillard) assumes an ordinary self, a pretended  
self and a consciousness of their differences. So if you don't know  
she is a character, you can't pretend. Of course this is not always  
simple; especially if young children play.

Usually.

Our research project (IPerG) ran a few games using a lot of pervasive  
role-play, where players were explicitly asked to treat everyone as  
part of the play. Thus, they were role-playing in their everyday  
interactions with bus drivers and clerks -- and incidentally some of  
these folks (like a real nurse working in a real hospital) turned out  
to be involved with game content.

As a result we ended up with lots and lots of gray areas between play  
and not play, often involving pretence, role-play et cetera.

We have published quite a lot on role-play, pervasive play and the  
social expansion to the ordinary world. I'm more than happy to provide  
links if anyone's interested.


Best,

  - Markus Montola -- writing a PhD. on pervasive role-play

    University of Tampere Hypermedialab
    Mobile: +358 44 544 2445

> I'm with you, Mike. I think as soon as a player treats a character as
> real, which they know (or suspect) to be a fictional construct of some
> kind, that puts them in the realm of roleplay. They're placing their
> own persona into the game.
>
> Also, I don't think there's really any difference between a person
> playing an Orc (or Shakespeare) and themselves. The vast majority of
> players are not skilled enough to behave in any manner other than
> their own, if that makes sense. And this isn't bashing the player's
> skill levels - it's an observation of how rare real acting talent is.
> So even though the Orc mask may give them permission to loosen up and
> not worry so much about what other people might think - they're still
> essentially being themselves.
>
> But I'll provide the same caveat as Mike as well. I'm no academic. So
> I may just be missing the point.
>
> Wendy
>
>
> On Mon, June 23, 2008 7:53 am, Mike Monello wrote:
>> I am the furthest thing from an academic you can get, but it seems to
>> me that when a player knowingly interacts with a fictional character
>> they have crossed the threshold into role-playing. Whether they send
>> an email or
>> go on a mission or more involved experience, they have made that jump
>> into the game space, even if the character they've chosen is a close
>> version of themselves. I don't recognize a difference between someone
>> playing a character exactly like themselves in a known fiction and
>> someone playing an Orc or any other fantastical creature - both are
>> operating within the safety and knowledge of a fictional framework
>> that allows them to make choices and play in a way that real life
>> absolutely would not.
>>
>> Either that or I've totally missed what y'all smart folks are talkin'
>> about!  :)
>>
>> ---
>> Mike Monello
>> Partner, Campfire
>> http://www.campfirenyc.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Am 23.06.2008 um 04:50 schrieb Christy Dena:
>>
>>> Cool. ARGs really are about performance in so many ways.
>>>
>>> But that still isn't the aspect of roleplay I was talking about. I'm
>>> after a definition that indicates how much the 'performance' of the
>>> player differs from their everyday self. There must be a continuum
>>> or
>>> something that shows the difference between a player performing an
>>> Orc
>>> or Shakespeare on the one end and being themselves but doing
>>> something
>>> they have never done before on the other (and all that is in
>>> between).
>>> [I don't have any of my books with me and am on short periods of
>>> dial-up and so can't research this myself right now.] Hmm, perhaps I
>>> shouldn't of put the draft up just yet after all. :\
>>>
>>> Anyway, I think ARG players are usually called on to do more on the
>>> 'other' end of the spectrum. But, I may be entirely wrong and so
>>> would
>>> love to know more. Jan sent me a great example of roleplaying in her
>>> ARG. I'd love to see others.
>>>
>>> John Evans has actually moved all of the content into the ARGology
>>> wiki. So, please, feel free to hack and add at will!:
>>>
>>> http://www.argology.org/wiki/index.php?title=Social_Interaction
>>>
>>> A start may be to add a quote from Jane's essay in the roleplay
>>> section!
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ARG_Discuss mailing list
>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
>>
>
>
> Wendy Despain
> quantumcontent.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> ARG_Discuss mailing list
> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
>




From bclark at gmdstudios.com  Tue Jun 24 11:10:16 2008
From: bclark at gmdstudios.com (Brian Clark)
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 11:10:16 -0400
Subject: [arg_discuss] Social Interaction in ARGs
In-Reply-To: <20080624101316.pppgch2iilw8804w@imp2.uta.fi>
Message-ID: <00d701c8d60c$69711770$6b00a8c0@PKDHEAD>

Markus, I love the clarity of:

"an ordinary self, a pretended self and a consciousness of their
differences"

That actually seems to be a unifying concept across these other competing
definitions: the arguments are about how far the pretend self has to be from
the ordinary self to count as roleplaying.

Christy, though, I want to go back to one of the definitions you offered:

"creating a novel persona for your character that fits in the context of the
game world and interacting with others through that persona"

I'd argue that "novel" is a pretty high bar to set to qualify. "For your
character" suggests a certain level of roleplaying is already happening,
doesn't it -- because the MMPORG mechanic subtly encourages that by
producing a digital proxy. It also leaves itself fuzzy with the "interacting
with others" because MMPORGs historically can separate human-to-human
interaction into "player/player" with everything else "player/environment".
ARGs don't have such an easy shortcut.

If you took Yee's definition and reworked it, it sounds like Markus'
statement from Lillard:

"creating a persona for yourself that fits in the context of the game world
and interacting with others through that persona"

This to me seems axiomatic, at least in the player-centered definition of
what is an ARG. That's what underscores that Unfiction is an OOG space:
because the rest of the world becomes "the game world". I'd go so far to
argue that if people weren't at least subtly "creating personas" to
"interact with others" it wouldn't be the Internet, which has a culture of
anonymous voyeurism that ARGing (like other community dynamics) actually
manages to overcome in amazing ways.

The lack of roleplaying is the emergent behavior from the interaction of the
system, not the roleplaying.

-----Original Message-----
From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On
Behalf Of Markus Montola
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 3:13 AM
To: arg_discuss at igda.org
Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] Social Interaction in ARGs

It all depends on how you define role-play. A good definition of  
pretend play (iirc by Lillard) assumes an ordinary self, a pretended  
self and a consciousness of their differences. So if you don't know  
she is a character, you can't pretend. Of course this is not always  
simple; especially if young children play.

Usually.

Our research project (IPerG) ran a few games using a lot of pervasive  
role-play, where players were explicitly asked to treat everyone as  
part of the play. Thus, they were role-playing in their everyday  
interactions with bus drivers and clerks -- and incidentally some of  
these folks (like a real nurse working in a real hospital) turned out  
to be involved with game content.

As a result we ended up with lots and lots of gray areas between play  
and not play, often involving pretence, role-play et cetera.

We have published quite a lot on role-play, pervasive play and the  
social expansion to the ordinary world. I'm more than happy to provide  
links if anyone's interested.


Best,

  - Markus Montola -- writing a PhD. on pervasive role-play

    University of Tampere Hypermedialab
    Mobile: +358 44 544 2445

> I'm with you, Mike. I think as soon as a player treats a character as
> real, which they know (or suspect) to be a fictional construct of some
> kind, that puts them in the realm of roleplay. They're placing their
> own persona into the game.
>
> Also, I don't think there's really any difference between a person
> playing an Orc (or Shakespeare) and themselves. The vast majority of
> players are not skilled enough to behave in any manner other than
> their own, if that makes sense. And this isn't bashing the player's
> skill levels - it's an observation of how rare real acting talent is.
> So even though the Orc mask may give them permission to loosen up and
> not worry so much about what other people might think - they're still
> essentially being themselves.
>
> But I'll provide the same caveat as Mike as well. I'm no academic. So
> I may just be missing the point.
>
> Wendy
>
>
> On Mon, June 23, 2008 7:53 am, Mike Monello wrote:
>> I am the furthest thing from an academic you can get, but it seems to
>> me that when a player knowingly interacts with a fictional character
>> they have crossed the threshold into role-playing. Whether they send
>> an email or
>> go on a mission or more involved experience, they have made that jump
>> into the game space, even if the character they've chosen is a close
>> version of themselves. I don't recognize a difference between someone
>> playing a character exactly like themselves in a known fiction and
>> someone playing an Orc or any other fantastical creature - both are
>> operating within the safety and knowledge of a fictional framework
>> that allows them to make choices and play in a way that real life
>> absolutely would not.
>>
>> Either that or I've totally missed what y'all smart folks are talkin'
>> about!  :)
>>
>> ---
>> Mike Monello
>> Partner, Campfire
>> http://www.campfirenyc.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Am 23.06.2008 um 04:50 schrieb Christy Dena:
>>
>>> Cool. ARGs really are about performance in so many ways.
>>>
>>> But that still isn't the aspect of roleplay I was talking about. I'm
>>> after a definition that indicates how much the 'performance' of the
>>> player differs from their everyday self. There must be a continuum
>>> or
>>> something that shows the difference between a player performing an
>>> Orc
>>> or Shakespeare on the one end and being themselves but doing
>>> something
>>> they have never done before on the other (and all that is in
>>> between).
>>> [I don't have any of my books with me and am on short periods of
>>> dial-up and so can't research this myself right now.] Hmm, perhaps I
>>> shouldn't of put the draft up just yet after all. :\
>>>
>>> Anyway, I think ARG players are usually called on to do more on the
>>> 'other' end of the spectrum. But, I may be entirely wrong and so
>>> would
>>> love to know more. Jan sent me a great example of roleplaying in her
>>> ARG. I'd love to see others.
>>>
>>> John Evans has actually moved all of the content into the ARGology
>>> wiki. So, please, feel free to hack and add at will!:
>>>
>>> http://www.argology.org/wiki/index.php?title=Social_Interaction
>>>
>>> A start may be to add a quote from Jane's essay in the roleplay
>>> section!
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ARG_Discuss mailing list
>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
>>
>
>
> Wendy Despain
> quantumcontent.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> ARG_Discuss mailing list
> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
>



_______________________________________________
ARG_Discuss mailing list
ARG_Discuss at igda.org
http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss


From cdena at cross-mediaentertainment.com  Tue Jun 24 23:05:57 2008
From: cdena at cross-mediaentertainment.com (Christy Dena)
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 12:35:57 +0930
Subject: [arg_discuss] Social Interaction in ARGs
In-Reply-To: <00d701c8d60c$69711770$6b00a8c0@PKDHEAD>
References: <20080624101316.pppgch2iilw8804w@imp2.uta.fi>
	<00d701c8d60c$69711770$6b00a8c0@PKDHEAD>
Message-ID: <e03f95410806242005i60b75458vf4e59bba04d74d0@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, I like Markus's quote too. That is exactly the kind of definition
that facilitates the continnum I was after. There can be a sliding
scale of difference between the ordinary and pretended self. To me
(and others), the difference between the ordinary self and the
pretended self is a signficant part of the experience, and therefore
influences design. I mean, there are millions of people worldwide
playing World of Warcraft, not World of Walmart. To be honest, I don't
quite understand why all of you think it isn't a factor, and don't see
any difference between roleplay in ARGs and RPGs.


On 6/25/08, Brian Clark <bclark at gmdstudios.com> wrote:
> Markus, I love the clarity of:
>
> "an ordinary self, a pretended self and a consciousness of their
> differences"
>
> That actually seems to be a unifying concept across these other competing
> definitions: the arguments are about how far the pretend self has to be from
> the ordinary self to count as roleplaying.
>
> Christy, though, I want to go back to one of the definitions you offered:
>
> "creating a novel persona for your character that fits in the context of the
> game world and interacting with others through that persona"
>
> I'd argue that "novel" is a pretty high bar to set to qualify. "For your
> character" suggests a certain level of roleplaying is already happening,
> doesn't it -- because the MMPORG mechanic subtly encourages that by
> producing a digital proxy. It also leaves itself fuzzy with the "interacting
> with others" because MMPORGs historically can separate human-to-human
> interaction into "player/player" with everything else "player/environment".
> ARGs don't have such an easy shortcut.
>
> If you took Yee's definition and reworked it, it sounds like Markus'
> statement from Lillard:
>
> "creating a persona for yourself that fits in the context of the game world
> and interacting with others through that persona"
>
> This to me seems axiomatic, at least in the player-centered definition of
> what is an ARG. That's what underscores that Unfiction is an OOG space:
> because the rest of the world becomes "the game world". I'd go so far to
> argue that if people weren't at least subtly "creating personas" to
> "interact with others" it wouldn't be the Internet, which has a culture of
> anonymous voyeurism that ARGing (like other community dynamics) actually
> manages to overcome in amazing ways.
>
> The lack of roleplaying is the emergent behavior from the interaction of the
> system, not the roleplaying.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On
> Behalf Of Markus Montola
> Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 3:13 AM
> To: arg_discuss at igda.org
> Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] Social Interaction in ARGs
>
> It all depends on how you define role-play. A good definition of
> pretend play (iirc by Lillard) assumes an ordinary self, a pretended
> self and a consciousness of their differences. So if you don't know
> she is a character, you can't pretend. Of course this is not always
> simple; especially if young children play.
>
> Usually.
>
> Our research project (IPerG) ran a few games using a lot of pervasive
> role-play, where players were explicitly asked to treat everyone as
> part of the play. Thus, they were role-playing in their everyday
> interactions with bus drivers and clerks -- and incidentally some of
> these folks (like a real nurse working in a real hospital) turned out
> to be involved with game content.
>
> As a result we ended up with lots and lots of gray areas between play
> and not play, often involving pretence, role-play et cetera.
>
> We have published quite a lot on role-play, pervasive play and the
> social expansion to the ordinary world. I'm more than happy to provide
> links if anyone's interested.
>
>
> Best,
>
>   - Markus Montola -- writing a PhD. on pervasive role-play
>
>     University of Tampere Hypermedialab
>     Mobile: +358 44 544 2445
>
>> I'm with you, Mike. I think as soon as a player treats a character as
>> real, which they know (or suspect) to be a fictional construct of some
>> kind, that puts them in the realm of roleplay. They're placing their
>> own persona into the game.
>>
>> Also, I don't think there's really any difference between a person
>> playing an Orc (or Shakespeare) and themselves. The vast majority of
>> players are not skilled enough to behave in any manner other than
>> their own, if that makes sense. And this isn't bashing the player's
>> skill levels - it's an observation of how rare real acting talent is.
>> So even though the Orc mask may give them permission to loosen up and
>> not worry so much about what other people might think - they're still
>> essentially being themselves.
>>
>> But I'll provide the same caveat as Mike as well. I'm no academic. So
>> I may just be missing the point.
>>
>> Wendy
>>
>>
>> On Mon, June 23, 2008 7:53 am, Mike Monello wrote:
>>> I am the furthest thing from an academic you can get, but it seems to
>>> me that when a player knowingly interacts with a fictional character
>>> they have crossed the threshold into role-playing. Whether they send
>>> an email or
>>> go on a mission or more involved experience, they have made that jump
>>> into the game space, even if the character they've chosen is a close
>>> version of themselves. I don't recognize a difference between someone
>>> playing a character exactly like themselves in a known fiction and
>>> someone playing an Orc or any other fantastical creature - both are
>>> operating within the safety and knowledge of a fictional framework
>>> that allows them to make choices and play in a way that real life
>>> absolutely would not.
>>>
>>> Either that or I've totally missed what y'all smart folks are talkin'
>>> about!  :)
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Mike Monello
>>> Partner, Campfire
>>> http://www.campfirenyc.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Am 23.06.2008 um 04:50 schrieb Christy Dena:
>>>
>>>> Cool. ARGs really are about performance in so many ways.
>>>>
>>>> But that still isn't the aspect of roleplay I was talking about. I'm
>>>> after a definition that indicates how much the 'performance' of the
>>>> player differs from their everyday self. There must be a continuum
>>>> or
>>>> something that shows the difference between a player performing an
>>>> Orc
>>>> or Shakespeare on the one end and being themselves but doing
>>>> something
>>>> they have never done before on the other (and all that is in
>>>> between).
>>>> [I don't have any of my books with me and am on short periods of
>>>> dial-up and so can't research this myself right now.] Hmm, perhaps I
>>>> shouldn't of put the draft up just yet after all. :\
>>>>
>>>> Anyway, I think ARG players are usually called on to do more on the
>>>> 'other' end of the spectrum. But, I may be entirely wrong and so
>>>> would
>>>> love to know more. Jan sent me a great example of roleplaying in her
>>>> ARG. I'd love to see others.
>>>>
>>>> John Evans has actually moved all of the content into the ARGology
>>>> wiki. So, please, feel free to hack and add at will!:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.argology.org/wiki/index.php?title=Social_Interaction
>>>>
>>>> A start may be to add a quote from Jane's essay in the roleplay
>>>> section!
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> ARG_Discuss mailing list
>>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
>>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
>>>
>>
>>
>> Wendy Despain
>> quantumcontent.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ARG_Discuss mailing list
>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ARG_Discuss mailing list
> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
>
> _______________________________________________
> ARG_Discuss mailing list
> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
>

From mmonello at campfirenyc.com  Wed Jun 25 00:09:49 2008
From: mmonello at campfirenyc.com (Michael Monello)
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 00:09:49 -0400
Subject: [arg_discuss] Social Interaction in ARGs
In-Reply-To: <e03f95410806242005i60b75458vf4e59bba04d74d0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20080624101316.pppgch2iilw8804w@imp2.uta.fi>
	<00d701c8d60c$69711770$6b00a8c0@PKDHEAD>
	<e03f95410806242005i60b75458vf4e59bba04d74d0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4B84E3F1-F2B1-4231-9B89-BED0F2041057@campfirenyc.com>



On Jun 24, 2008, at 11:05 PM, Christy Dena <cdena at cross-mediaentertainment.com 
 > wrote:

> I mean, there are millions of people worldwide
> playing World of Warcraft, not World of Walmart. To be honest, I don't
> quite understand why all of you think it isn't a factor, and don't see
> any difference between roleplay in ARGs and RPGs.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>


"World of Walmart" -- is that like "The Sims?"  ;)

- Mike

From patrick at ndreams.com  Wed Jun 25 02:05:18 2008
From: patrick at ndreams.com (Patrick O'Luanaigh)
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 07:05:18 +0100
Subject: [arg_discuss]  Interactive story and creation tool
In-Reply-To: <4B84E3F1-F2B1-4231-9B89-BED0F2041057@campfirenyc.com>
References: <20080624101316.pppgch2iilw8804w@imp2.uta.fi>	<00d701c8d60c$69711770$6b00a8c0@PKDHEAD>	<e03f95410806242005i60b75458vf4e59bba04d74d0@mail.gmail.com>
	<4B84E3F1-F2B1-4231-9B89-BED0F2041057@campfirenyc.com>
Message-ID: <4861E01E.30709@ndreams.com>

Not an ARG, but if you're interested in rich interactive online stories, 
take a look at Episode 4 of Inanimate Alice, which has just launched.
http://www.inanimatealice.com/
And if you're involved in teaching, there is a PC-based interactive 
story creating tool called iStories which is very simple to use, and 
links into Inanimate Alice with teaching resources.
http://www.istori.es

Patrick

From cdena at cross-mediaentertainment.com  Wed Jun 25 06:32:10 2008
From: cdena at cross-mediaentertainment.com (Christy Dena)
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 20:02:10 +0930
Subject: [arg_discuss] Social Interaction in ARGs
In-Reply-To: <4B84E3F1-F2B1-4231-9B89-BED0F2041057@campfirenyc.com>
References: <20080624101316.pppgch2iilw8804w@imp2.uta.fi>
	<00d701c8d60c$69711770$6b00a8c0@PKDHEAD>
	<e03f95410806242005i60b75458vf4e59bba04d74d0@mail.gmail.com>
	<4B84E3F1-F2B1-4231-9B89-BED0F2041057@campfirenyc.com>
Message-ID: <e03f95410806250332q133617b3m64ed8d3b60967f09@mail.gmail.com>

hehe ;)

On 6/25/08, Michael Monello <mmonello at campfirenyc.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Jun 24, 2008, at 11:05 PM, Christy Dena
> <cdena at cross-mediaentertainment.com
>  > wrote:
>
>> I mean, there are millions of people worldwide
>> playing World of Warcraft, not World of Walmart. To be honest, I don't
>> quite understand why all of you think it isn't a factor, and don't see
>> any difference between roleplay in ARGs and RPGs.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
> "World of Walmart" -- is that like "The Sims?"  ;)
>
> - Mike
> _______________________________________________
> ARG_Discuss mailing list
> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
>

From bclark at gmdstudios.com  Wed Jun 25 09:37:53 2008
From: bclark at gmdstudios.com (Brian Clark)
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 09:37:53 -0400
Subject: [arg_discuss] Social Interaction in ARGs
In-Reply-To: <e03f95410806242005i60b75458vf4e59bba04d74d0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000001c8d6c8$abdc1670$6b00a8c0@PKDHEAD>

"I don't quite understand why all of you think it isn't a factor, and don't
see any difference between roleplay in ARGs and RPGs."

I see a huge diversity of roleplaying within individual ARGs and RPGs, let
alone in differences between the two genres.

Once of my cast members for Eldritch Errors is a fairly well known LARP
(live action roleplaying) figure, and she too wrote about the differences
there. Quoting her:

"In RPG's, there is a clear line between 'character' and 'self', or at least
clearer. When you are 'in game' you are not you, but a character that you
have created; and when the game is over, you go back to being you. ARG's are
different, in this way, because while people maintain an 'in game' and 'out
of game' understanding, their persona 'in game' is really them, the actual
person. Granted, in some cases it is an amplified version of themselves, but
regardless, it makes the interactions complicated on a whole new level that
is not touched upon often, and most times purposefully avoided, in RPG's."

From: http://www.schmeldritch.com/2007/11/on-the-inside-looking-in.html

She also focused on the difference between self and character between the
two, and pointed to a John Hughes 1988 paper entitled "Therapy is Fantasy:
Roleplaying, Healing and the Construction of Symbolic Order":
http://www.rpgstudies.net/hughes/therapy_is_fantasy.html

In that paper, Hughes tries to define roleplaying as "a recreational [...]
translation of private fantasy activities such as daydreaming into social
and game context that is structured and controlled by an agreed set of
rules."

He's interested in it as a therapist, though, because:

"One of the characteristics of collective fantasy formations such as
roleplaying is that because the creation of the fantasy is a group
communicative process, one is able to access the processes of symbol
formation in ways that are not possible when studying reports of dreams and
daydreaming. As such, collective fantasy stands as a prime example of the
symbolic interactionalist approach to the construction of meaning, a true
universe of discourse."

To boil that back to Markus, maybe the difference is that ARGs tend to have
a smaller distance between ordinary self and pretend self (as in "I'm trying
on an alternate version of myself") than "fantasy roleplaying" (where I
don't mean fantasy as in "elves and wizards" so much as "I'm escaping from
myself into a fantasy".)

Both, though, are a collective symbolic process that is constructing
meaning, and Hughes would argue both give you a symbolic peek into the minds
of the participants.

-----Original Message-----
From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On
Behalf Of Christy Dena
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 11:06 PM
To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG
Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] Social Interaction in ARGs

Yes, I like Markus's quote too. That is exactly the kind of definition
that facilitates the continnum I was after. There can be a sliding
scale of difference between the ordinary and pretended self. To me
(and others), the difference between the ordinary self and the
pretended self is a signficant part of the experience, and therefore
influences design. I mean, there are millions of people worldwide
playing World of Warcraft, not World of Walmart. To be honest, I don't
quite understand why all of you think it isn't a factor, and don't see
any difference between roleplay in ARGs and RPGs.


On 6/25/08, Brian Clark <bclark at gmdstudios.com> wrote:
> Markus, I love the clarity of:
>
> "an ordinary self, a pretended self and a consciousness of their
> differences"
>
> That actually seems to be a unifying concept across these other competing
> definitions: the arguments are about how far the pretend self has to be
from
> the ordinary self to count as roleplaying.
>
> Christy, though, I want to go back to one of the definitions you offered:
>
> "creating a novel persona for your character that fits in the context of
the
> game world and interacting with others through that persona"
>
> I'd argue that "novel" is a pretty high bar to set to qualify. "For your
> character" suggests a certain level of roleplaying is already happening,
> doesn't it -- because the MMPORG mechanic subtly encourages that by
> producing a digital proxy. It also leaves itself fuzzy with the
"interacting
> with others" because MMPORGs historically can separate human-to-human
> interaction into "player/player" with everything else
"player/environment".
> ARGs don't have such an easy shortcut.
>
> If you took Yee's definition and reworked it, it sounds like Markus'
> statement from Lillard:
>
> "creating a persona for yourself that fits in the context of the game
world
> and interacting with others through that persona"
>
> This to me seems axiomatic, at least in the player-centered definition of
> what is an ARG. That's what underscores that Unfiction is an OOG space:
> because the rest of the world becomes "the game world". I'd go so far to
> argue that if people weren't at least subtly "creating personas" to
> "interact with others" it wouldn't be the Internet, which has a culture of
> anonymous voyeurism that ARGing (like other community dynamics) actually
> manages to overcome in amazing ways.
>
> The lack of roleplaying is the emergent behavior from the interaction of
the
> system, not the roleplaying.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org]
On
> Behalf Of Markus Montola
> Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 3:13 AM
> To: arg_discuss at igda.org
> Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] Social Interaction in ARGs
>
> It all depends on how you define role-play. A good definition of
> pretend play (iirc by Lillard) assumes an ordinary self, a pretended
> self and a consciousness of their differences. So if you don't know
> she is a character, you can't pretend. Of course this is not always
> simple; especially if young children play.
>
> Usually.
>
> Our research project (IPerG) ran a few games using a lot of pervasive
> role-play, where players were explicitly asked to treat everyone as
> part of the play. Thus, they were role-playing in their everyday
> interactions with bus drivers and clerks -- and incidentally some of
> these folks (like a real nurse working in a real hospital) turned out
> to be involved with game content.
>
> As a result we ended up with lots and lots of gray areas between play
> and not play, often involving pretence, role-play et cetera.
>
> We have published quite a lot on role-play, pervasive play and the
> social expansion to the ordinary world. I'm more than happy to provide
> links if anyone's interested.
>
>
> Best,
>
>   - Markus Montola -- writing a PhD. on pervasive role-play
>
>     University of Tampere Hypermedialab
>     Mobile: +358 44 544 2445
>
>> I'm with you, Mike. I think as soon as a player treats a character as
>> real, which they know (or suspect) to be a fictional construct of some
>> kind, that puts them in the realm of roleplay. They're placing their
>> own persona into the game.
>>
>> Also, I don't think there's really any difference between a person
>> playing an Orc (or Shakespeare) and themselves. The vast majority of
>> players are not skilled enough to behave in any manner other than
>> their own, if that makes sense. And this isn't bashing the player's
>> skill levels - it's an observation of how rare real acting talent is.
>> So even though the Orc mask may give them permission to loosen up and
>> not worry so much about what other people might think - they're still
>> essentially being themselves.
>>
>> But I'll provide the same caveat as Mike as well. I'm no academic. So
>> I may just be missing the point.
>>
>> Wendy
>>
>>
>> On Mon, June 23, 2008 7:53 am, Mike Monello wrote:
>>> I am the furthest thing from an academic you can get, but it seems to
>>> me that when a player knowingly interacts with a fictional character
>>> they have crossed the threshold into role-playing. Whether they send
>>> an email or
>>> go on a mission or more involved experience, they have made that jump
>>> into the game space, even if the character they've chosen is a close
>>> version of themselves. I don't recognize a difference between someone
>>> playing a character exactly like themselves in a known fiction and
>>> someone playing an Orc or any other fantastical creature - both are
>>> operating within the safety and knowledge of a fictional framework
>>> that allows them to make choices and play in a way that real life
>>> absolutely would not.
>>>
>>> Either that or I've totally missed what y'all smart folks are talkin'
>>> about!  :)
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Mike Monello
>>> Partner, Campfire
>>> http://www.campfirenyc.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Am 23.06.2008 um 04:50 schrieb Christy Dena:
>>>
>>>> Cool. ARGs really are about performance in so many ways.
>>>>
>>>> But that still isn't the aspect of roleplay I was talking about. I'm
>>>> after a definition that indicates how much the 'performance' of the
>>>> player differs from their everyday self. There must be a continuum
>>>> or
>>>> something that shows the difference between a player performing an
>>>> Orc
>>>> or Shakespeare on the one end and being themselves but doing
>>>> something
>>>> they have never done before on the other (and all that is in
>>>> between).
>>>> [I don't have any of my books with me and am on short periods of
>>>> dial-up and so can't research this myself right now.] Hmm, perhaps I
>>>> shouldn't of put the draft up just yet after all. :\
>>>>
>>>> Anyway, I think ARG players are usually called on to do more on the
>>>> 'other' end of the spectrum. But, I may be entirely wrong and so
>>>> would
>>>> love to know more. Jan sent me a great example of roleplaying in her
>>>> ARG. I'd love to see others.
>>>>
>>>> John Evans has actually moved all of the content into the ARGology
>>>> wiki. So, please, feel free to hack and add at will!:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.argology.org/wiki/index.php?title=Social_Interaction
>>>>
>>>> A start may be to add a quote from Jane's essay in the roleplay
>>>> section!
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> ARG_Discuss mailing list
>>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
>>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
>>>
>>
>>
>> Wendy Despain
>> quantumcontent.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ARG_Discuss mailing list
>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ARG_Discuss mailing list
> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
>
> _______________________________________________
> ARG_Discuss mailing list
> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
>
_______________________________________________
ARG_Discuss mailing list
ARG_Discuss at igda.org
http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss


From cdena at cross-mediaentertainment.com  Wed Jun 25 23:05:19 2008
From: cdena at cross-mediaentertainment.com (Christy Dena)
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 12:35:19 +0930
Subject: [arg_discuss] Social Interaction in ARGs
In-Reply-To: <000001c8d6c8$abdc1670$6b00a8c0@PKDHEAD>
References: <e03f95410806242005i60b75458vf4e59bba04d74d0@mail.gmail.com>
	<000001c8d6c8$abdc1670$6b00a8c0@PKDHEAD>
Message-ID: <e03f95410806252005y42dee729uabee78c1d8b0013b@mail.gmail.com>

> maybe the difference is that ARGs tend to have
> a smaller distance between ordinary self and pretend self

That is what I've been saying all along. OK, so it seems we're in
complete agreement. I think the reason why you, and others, disagreed
with me then is because of my statement about 'roleplay':

"Players of ARGs usually play themselves, they don't roleplay. They
do, however, do need to sustain the illusion of the gameworld when
they interact with characters. ARG Dave Szulborski explains the lack
of roleplay in ARGs:
ARG In-Game Rule #1: Do not role play or pretend to be a made-up
character while playing an ARG. Alternate Reality Games are intended
to be played and enjoyed as yourself. (Szulborski, 2005, 39) "

It seems you use the term roleplay as including all participation in a
game or theatre. This is why you, and others, reacted to the idea of
'no roleplay'. I think using the term 'roleplay' to denote something
that occurs in every game is redudant. In my quick writing, I employed
'roleplay' to denote a particular type of pretend play that is quite
distinct from their ordinary selves. 'Roleplay' for me, and others,
distinguished that pretend element and highlights the significance of
this characteristic of the game. However, what your response has shown
me is what different associations to the term some people have, and
has helped us find a definition that is more specific and addresses
all our perspectives.

I could rewrite the original comment with our new somewhat shared view
of roleplay and ARGs, however, the comment in the table was not a
general statement about ARGs, but a direct response to the use of
roleplaying for social interaction as defined by Bjork and Holopainen:

"Players have characters with at least somewhat fleshed out
personalities. The play is centered on making decisions on how these
characters would take actions in staged imaginary situations." (p.
252)

And this is where I ask again: when do ARGs have player-created
characters with somewhat FLESHED OUT PERSONALITIES? When is the play
is CENTERED on making decisions on how these characters would take
actions in staged imaginary situations?

I've got examples of situations in which I've taken actions in staged
imaginary situations. But how much of the play was centered on that
experience? That is, was the process of making character-based
decisions the primary characteristic of the game, a primary part of
the experience? Is this what appeals to players of ARGs? Can ARGs be
played without player-created characters with fleshed out
personalities? How many player-created characters have fleshed out
personalities?

Indeed, perhaps the most important question in relation to the table:
How many of the player-created characters with fleshed out
personalities are facilitated by the PMs to encourage social
interaction between players in group activities?

I'd love to hear anyones thoughts and examples on this. But, I'll
leave these questions in the air to dangle as long as they like, as
I've got to get back to writing! :)


On 6/25/08, Brian Clark <bclark at gmdstudios.com> wrote:
> "I don't quite understand why all of you think it isn't a factor, and don't
> see any difference between roleplay in ARGs and RPGs."
>
> I see a huge diversity of roleplaying within individual ARGs and RPGs, let
> alone in differences between the two genres.
>
> Once of my cast members for Eldritch Errors is a fairly well known LARP
> (live action roleplaying) figure, and she too wrote about the differences
> there. Quoting her:
>
> "In RPG's, there is a clear line between 'character' and 'self', or at least
> clearer. When you are 'in game' you are not you, but a character that you
> have created; and when the game is over, you go back to being you. ARG's are
> different, in this way, because while people maintain an 'in game' and 'out
> of game' understanding, their persona 'in game' is really them, the actual
> person. Granted, in some cases it is an amplified version of themselves, but
> regardless, it makes the interactions complicated on a whole new level that
> is not touched upon often, and most times purposefully avoided, in RPG's."
>
> From: http://www.schmeldritch.com/2007/11/on-the-inside-looking-in.html
>
> She also focused on the difference between self and character between the
> two, and pointed to a John Hughes 1988 paper entitled "Therapy is Fantasy:
> Roleplaying, Healing and the Construction of Symbolic Order":
> http://www.rpgstudies.net/hughes/therapy_is_fantasy.html
>
> In that paper, Hughes tries to define roleplaying as "a recreational [...]
> translation of private fantasy activities such as daydreaming into social
> and game context that is structured and controlled by an agreed set of
> rules."
>
> He's interested in it as a therapist, though, because:
>
> "One of the characteristics of collective fantasy formations such as
> roleplaying is that because the creation of the fantasy is a group
> communicative process, one is able to access the processes of symbol
> formation in ways that are not possible when studying reports of dreams and
> daydreaming. As such, collective fantasy stands as a prime example of the
> symbolic interactionalist approach to the construction of meaning, a true
> universe of discourse."
>
> To boil that back to Markus, maybe the difference is that ARGs tend to have
> a smaller distance between ordinary self and pretend self (as in "I'm trying
> on an alternate version of myself") than "fantasy roleplaying" (where I
> don't mean fantasy as in "elves and wizards" so much as "I'm escaping from
> myself into a fantasy".)
>
> Both, though, are a collective symbolic process that is constructing
> meaning, and Hughes would argue both give you a symbolic peek into the minds
> of the participants.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On
> Behalf Of Christy Dena
> Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 11:06 PM
> To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG
> Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] Social Interaction in ARGs
>
> Yes, I like Markus's quote too. That is exactly the kind of definition
> that facilitates the continnum I was after. There can be a sliding
> scale of difference between the ordinary and pretended self. To me
> (and others), the difference between the ordinary self and the
> pretended self is a signficant part of the experience, and therefore
> influences design. I mean, there are millions of people worldwide
> playing World of Warcraft, not World of Walmart. To be honest, I don't
> quite understand why all of you think it isn't a factor, and don't see
> any difference between roleplay in ARGs and RPGs.
>
>
> On 6/25/08, Brian Clark <bclark at gmdstudios.com> wrote:
>> Markus, I love the clarity of:
>>
>> "an ordinary self, a pretended self and a consciousness of their
>> differences"
>>
>> That actually seems to be a unifying concept across these other competing
>> definitions: the arguments are about how far the pretend self has to be
> from
>> the ordinary self to count as roleplaying.
>>
>> Christy, though, I want to go back to one of the definitions you offered:
>>
>> "creating a novel persona for your character that fits in the context of
> the
>> game world and interacting with others through that persona"
>>
>> I'd argue that "novel" is a pretty high bar to set to qualify. "For your
>> character" suggests a certain level of roleplaying is already happening,
>> doesn't it -- because the MMPORG mechanic subtly encourages that by
>> producing a digital proxy. It also leaves itself fuzzy with the
> "interacting
>> with others" because MMPORGs historically can separate human-to-human
>> interaction into "player/player" with everything else
> "player/environment".
>> ARGs don't have such an easy shortcut.
>>
>> If you took Yee's definition and reworked it, it sounds like Markus'
>> statement from Lillard:
>>
>> "creating a persona for yourself that fits in the context of the game
> world
>> and interacting with others through that persona"
>>
>> This to me seems axiomatic, at least in the player-centered definition of
>> what is an ARG. That's what underscores that Unfiction is an OOG space:
>> because the rest of the world becomes "the game world". I'd go so far to
>> argue that if people weren't at least subtly "creating personas" to
>> "interact with others" it wouldn't be the Internet, which has a culture of
>> anonymous voyeurism that ARGing (like other community dynamics) actually
>> manages to overcome in amazing ways.
>>
>> The lack of roleplaying is the emergent behavior from the interaction of
> the
>> system, not the roleplaying.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org]
> On
>> Behalf Of Markus Montola
>> Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 3:13 AM
>> To: arg_discuss at igda.org
>> Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] Social Interaction in ARGs
>>
>> It all depends on how you define role-play. A good definition of
>> pretend play (iirc by Lillard) assumes an ordinary self, a pretended
>> self and a consciousness of their differences. So if you don't know
>> she is a character, you can't pretend. Of course this is not always
>> simple; especially if young children play.
>>
>> Usually.
>>
>> Our research project (IPerG) ran a few games using a lot of pervasive
>> role-play, where players were explicitly asked to treat everyone as
>> part of the play. Thus, they were role-playing in their everyday
>> interactions with bus drivers and clerks -- and incidentally some of
>> these folks (like a real nurse working in a real hospital) turned out
>> to be involved with game content.
>>
>> As a result we ended up with lots and lots of gray areas between play
>> and not play, often involving pretence, role-play et cetera.
>>
>> We have published quite a lot on role-play, pervasive play and the
>> social expansion to the ordinary world. I'm more than happy to provide
>> links if anyone's interested.
>>
>>
>> Best,
>>
>>   - Markus Montola -- writing a PhD. on pervasive role-play
>>
>>     University of Tampere Hypermedialab
>>     Mobile: +358 44 544 2445
>>
>>> I'm with you, Mike. I think as soon as a player treats a character as
>>> real, which they know (or suspect) to be a fictional construct of some
>>> kind, that puts them in the realm of roleplay. They're placing their
>>> own persona into the game.
>>>
>>> Also, I don't think there's really any difference between a person
>>> playing an Orc (or Shakespeare) and themselves. The vast majority of
>>> players are not skilled enough to behave in any manner other than
>>> their own, if that makes sense. And this isn't bashing the player's
>>> skill levels - it's an observation of how rare real acting talent is.
>>> So even though the Orc mask may give them permission to loosen up and
>>> not worry so much about what other people might think - they're still
>>> essentially being themselves.
>>>
>>> But I'll provide the same caveat as Mike as well. I'm no academic. So
>>> I may just be missing the point.
>>>
>>> Wendy
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, June 23, 2008 7:53 am, Mike Monello wrote:
>>>> I am the furthest thing from an academic you can get, but it seems to
>>>> me that when a player knowingly interacts with a fictional character
>>>> they have crossed the threshold into role-playing. Whether they send
>>>> an email or
>>>> go on a mission or more involved experience, they have made that jump
>>>> into the game space, even if the character they've chosen is a close
>>>> version of themselves. I don't recognize a difference between someone
>>>> playing a character exactly like themselves in a known fiction and
>>>> someone playing an Orc or any other fantastical creature - both are
>>>> operating within the safety and knowledge of a fictional framework
>>>> that allows them to make choices and play in a way that real life
>>>> absolutely would not.
>>>>
>>>> Either that or I've totally missed what y'all smart folks are talkin'
>>>> about!  :)
>>>>
>>>> ---
>>>> Mike Monello
>>>> Partner, Campfire
>>>> http://www.campfirenyc.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Am 23.06.2008 um 04:50 schrieb Christy Dena:
>>>>
>>>>> Cool. ARGs really are about performance in so many ways.
>>>>>
>>>>> But that still isn't the aspect of roleplay I was talking about. I'm
>>>>> after a definition that indicates how much the 'performance' of the
>>>>> player differs from their everyday self. There must be a continuum
>>>>> or
>>>>> something that shows the difference between a player performing an
>>>>> Orc
>>>>> or Shakespeare on the one end and being themselves but doing
>>>>> something
>>>>> they have never done before on the other (and all that is in
>>>>> between).
>>>>> [I don't have any of my books with me and am on short periods of
>>>>> dial-up and so can't research this myself right now.] Hmm, perhaps I
>>>>> shouldn't of put the draft up just yet after all. :\
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyway, I think ARG players are usually called on to do more on the
>>>>> 'other' end of the spectrum. But, I may be entirely wrong and so
>>>>> would
>>>>> love to know more. Jan sent me a great example of roleplaying in her
>>>>> ARG. I'd love to see others.
>>>>>
>>>>> John Evans has actually moved all of the content into the ARGology
>>>>> wiki. So, please, feel free to hack and add at will!:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.argology.org/wiki/index.php?title=Social_Interaction
>>>>>
>>>>> A start may be to add a quote from Jane's essay in the roleplay
>>>>> section!
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> ARG_Discuss mailing list
>>>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
>>>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Wendy Despain
>>> quantumcontent.com
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> ARG_Discuss mailing list
>>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
>>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ARG_Discuss mailing list
>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> ARG_Discuss mailing list
>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
>>
> _______________________________________________
> ARG_Discuss mailing list
> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
>
> _______________________________________________
> ARG_Discuss mailing list
> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
>

From mmonello at campfirenyc.com  Thu Jun 26 00:32:12 2008
From: mmonello at campfirenyc.com (Mike Monello)
Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 21:32:12 -0700
Subject: [arg_discuss] Social Interaction in ARGs
In-Reply-To: <e03f95410806252005y42dee729uabee78c1d8b0013b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C488940C.B036%mmonello@campfirenyc.com>

On 6/25/08 11:05 PM, "Christy Dena" <cdena at cross-mediaentertainment.com> wrote:

It seems you use the term roleplay as including all participation in a
game or theatre. This is why you, and others, reacted to the idea of
'no roleplay'. I think using the term 'roleplay' to denote something
that occurs in every game is redudant.


I do not consider "roleplay" to be an accurate description of all participation in a game. Many players play games on Unfiction, where, as someone said, the game is treated as a game and not an "alternate reality." When players speculate on the characters and what the characters might do, talk about story elements, and generally discuss the game as if it were any other piece of media, then they are clearly not roleplaying, and many players only experience games this way.

But many players do roleplay and interact with the fictional characters of a game. I don't recognize your requirement for a "fleshed out personality" because, well that's a lot to ask of most movies these days, let alone a player of a game, but I would argue that fleshed-out personalities that are separate from player's actual personalities do emerge in ARGs.

Let me use an example from H3ist to illustrate.

The main character, Nisha, put out the call for help on a mission in Chicago. One player, "Lou," was not selected to help Nisha on this mission. He sent an email to another character, Ian:

To: Ian
From: Lou
Date: June 3, 2005 7:40 PM
Subject: Re: chicago

Ian,

Nisha shot me down and denied my application to participate in the
Chicago op, saying she had a full team.  Earlier this week, after
hearing that recruitment was low, I changed my travel plans, and I
made plans to stick around in Chicago for an extra day, so I could be
here for Saturday's op.  Now that I've been rejected, I'm stuck here
in Chicago until Sunday, with nothing to do on Saturday night.

So, perhaps I could be of some use to you.  Catch my drift?  We both
know Gunter is crazy and may be thinking about retribution for Nisha's
visit to his mom.  And let's not forget Virgil's volatile streak as of
late.

I never sent Nisha a picture, so she wouldn't know to look for me.  If
you can come up with the location, I'd be happy to attempt to
infiltrate/observe the op and report back to you.  We'd just need to
set up counter-mission parameters.

Sound like we could come to an agreement?

Thanks
Lou


Lou has inserted himself into H3ist's fictional world, referencing characters as real and even speaks the lingo of the universe -- "counter-mission parameters." Lou became a central part of that operation and a beloved player-character (by both the audience and the PMs). Many played the game, but Lou played a character, and no retelling of the story of H3ist would be complete without Lou as a character, not just as a player.

So I do recognize that some players are just players and some players actually roleplay and become characters in the story themselves.

I've got examples of situations in which I've taken actions in staged
imaginary situations. But how much of the play was centered on that
experience? That is, was the process of making character-based
decisions the primary characteristic of the game, a primary part of
the experience?

I would say that everyone who participated in a live mission on H3ist was roleplaying, and that was absolutely central to the game.


Is this what appeals to players of ARGs? Can ARGs be
played without player-created characters with fleshed out
personalities?

That is a much trickier question and I don't have enough experience to answer it, but I can say that right now I'm involved with an interactive narrative that was initially perceived as an "ARG" despite lacking what many players would consider central elements to the genre, and when the ARG players were faced with a challenge that required roleplay rather than cracking a puzzle to further the story, they did not like it one bit, so I also recognize that the roleplay in an ARG is quite different from what might traditionally be seen as "roleplay."

How's that for making a point and then completely contradicting myself in the same message?

Best,

Mike

From cdena at cross-mediaentertainment.com  Thu Jun 26 02:49:03 2008
From: cdena at cross-mediaentertainment.com (Christy Dena)
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 16:19:03 +0930
Subject: [arg_discuss] Social Interaction in ARGs
In-Reply-To: <C488940C.B036%mmonello@campfirenyc.com>
References: <e03f95410806252005y42dee729uabee78c1d8b0013b@mail.gmail.com>
	<C488940C.B036%mmonello@campfirenyc.com>
Message-ID: <e03f95410806252349q7f6ac41k5fa8186b14a800f5@mail.gmail.com>

I think we can keep going around in circles for days! :)

> But many players do roleplay and interact with the fictional characters of a
> game. I don't recognize your requirement for a "fleshed out personality"
> because, well that's a lot to ask of most movies these days, let alone a
> player of a game, but I would argue that fleshed-out personalities that are
> separate from player's actual personalities do emerge in ARGs.

"fleshed out personality" is not my requirement. The whole section on
roleplay is in response to the definition of roleplaying as a social
interaction pattern as defined by Bjork and Holopainen. This is
another reason I think why we've been disagreeing.

There are alot of games that require players to develop fleshed out
characters. Indeed, that is their lure. That is why it is important,
IMHO, to distinguish what happens in ARGs to these types of games.

> So I do recognize that some players are just players and some players
> actually roleplay and become characters in the story themselves.

OK, great.

> Lou example

Excellent example!

As I side note, I remember I was so excited when H3ist started. It was
quite an uncanny experience for me. I had just watched a documentary
on art fraud, and so I was excited about the possibility of learning
how to make or detect art fraud in H3ist. That didn't end up being
what the ARG was about, but this was an early expectation I had about
ARGs -- that I would have to really learn to do things that I'm not
currently able to do. Not to pretend how to do these things, but
actually do them. But that is another conversation that I'm loathe to
start! I think everyone on the list must be a bit sick of my
ramblings. I certainly am! :\

> I would say that everyone who participated in a live mission on H3ist was
> roleplaying, and that was absolutely central to the game.

Ah yes. But I see a difference here between roleplaying being the
primary appeal of the whole game, and being one part of it, that only
some undertake, but is vital to the game progressing.

As I said, I think we can keep going around this for days.

META:
Although I've found this conversation quite illuminating and helpful,
I don't think this listserv discussion approach has been the best way
to discuss roleplaying in ARGs. I actually think understanding would
of been better served through a short essay that defines roleplaying,
sets out how roleplaying in ARGs are different, with examples. I was
cutting directly to an assertation about the creation of fleshed out
fictional characters by players, as facilitated by PMs for social
interaction. But I think because there is very little material out
there on ARGs, any statement about one very specific aspect of the
design or experience of ARGs is interpreted in the context of the
general discussion about the topic. People need to go through the
macro before they can address the micro. I think it is important,
therefore, that any discussion about an aspect of the design or
experience of ARGs needs to be prefaced with a general overview. It is
(to me) an interesting situation, but completely understandable. But
this is why ARGology is so needed. There really needs to be more
knowledge out there, so the specifics can be explored with a
(somewhat) shared understanding.

If someone (or a few peeps!) wants to write an article on roleplaying
in ARGs for the ARGology site, that would great! :p

I'll also put in a prompt in here for Markus to post links to his
papers and the iPerg papers that discuss roleplay. I intended to refer
to them in the table before I posted it here but (you know the story)
didn't have the time+my files have corrupted+I'm away from my main
computer. It would be good, Markus, to have your recommendations on
this list to add to those already contributed by the gang. :)


On 6/26/08, Mike Monello <mmonello at campfirenyc.com> wrote:
> On 6/25/08 11:05 PM, "Christy Dena" <cdena at cross-mediaentertainment.com>
> wrote:
>
> It seems you use the term roleplay as including all participation in a
> game or theatre. This is why you, and others, reacted to the idea of
> 'no roleplay'. I think using the term 'roleplay' to denote something
> that occurs in every game is redudant.
>
>
> I do not consider "roleplay" to be an accurate description of all
> participation in a game. Many players play games on Unfiction, where, as
> someone said, the game is treated as a game and not an "alternate reality."
> When players speculate on the characters and what the characters might do,
> talk about story elements, and generally discuss the game as if it were any
> other piece of media, then they are clearly not roleplaying, and many
> players only experience games this way.
>
> But many players do roleplay and interact with the fictional characters of a
> game. I don't recognize your requirement for a "fleshed out personality"
> because, well that's a lot to ask of most movies these days, let alone a
> player of a game, but I would argue that fleshed-out personalities that are
> separate from player's actual personalities do emerge in ARGs.
>
> Let me use an example from H3ist to illustrate.
>
> The main character, Nisha, put out the call for help on a mission in
> Chicago. One player, "Lou," was not selected to help Nisha on this mission.
> He sent an email to another character, Ian:
>
> To: Ian
> From: Lou
> Date: June 3, 2005 7:40 PM
> Subject: Re: chicago
>
> Ian,
>
> Nisha shot me down and denied my application to participate in the
> Chicago op, saying she had a full team.  Earlier this week, after
> hearing that recruitment was low, I changed my travel plans, and I
> made plans to stick around in Chicago for an extra day, so I could be
> here for Saturday's op.  Now that I've been rejected, I'm stuck here
> in Chicago until Sunday, with nothing to do on Saturday night.
>
> So, perhaps I could be of some use to you.  Catch my drift?  We both
> know Gunter is crazy and may be thinking about retribution for Nisha's
> visit to his mom.  And let's not forget Virgil's volatile streak as of
> late.
>
> I never sent Nisha a picture, so she wouldn't know to look for me.  If
> you can come up with the location, I'd be happy to attempt to
> infiltrate/observe the op and report back to you.  We'd just need to
> set up counter-mission parameters.
>
> Sound like we could come to an agreement?
>
> Thanks
> Lou
>
>
> Lou has inserted himself into H3ist's fictional world, referencing
> characters as real and even speaks the lingo of the universe --
> "counter-mission parameters." Lou became a central part of that operation
> and a beloved player-character (by both the audience and the PMs). Many
> played the game, but Lou played a character, and no retelling of the story
> of H3ist would be complete without Lou as a character, not just as a player.
>
> So I do recognize that some players are just players and some players
> actually roleplay and become characters in the story themselves.
>
> I've got examples of situations in which I've taken actions in staged
> imaginary situations. But how much of the play was centered on that
> experience? That is, was the process of making character-based
> decisions the primary characteristic of the game, a primary part of
> the experience?
>
> I would say that everyone who participated in a live mission on H3ist was
> roleplaying, and that was absolutely central to the game.
>
>
> Is this what appeals to players of ARGs? Can ARGs be
> played without player-created characters with fleshed out
> personalities?
>
> That is a much trickier question and I don't have enough experience to
> answer it, but I can say that right now I'm involved with an interactive
> narrative that was initially perceived as an "ARG" despite lacking what many
> players would consider central elements to the genre, and when the ARG
> players were faced with a challenge that required roleplay rather than
> cracking a puzzle to further the story, they did not like it one bit, so I
> also recognize that the roleplay in an ARG is quite different from what
> might traditionally be seen as "roleplay."
>
> How's that for making a point and then completely contradicting myself in
> the same message?
>
> Best,
>
> Mike
> _______________________________________________
> ARG_Discuss mailing list
> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
>

From varineq at gmail.com  Thu Jun 26 14:05:28 2008
From: varineq at gmail.com (Michelle Senderhauf)
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 13:05:28 -0500
Subject: [arg_discuss] Social Interaction in ARGs
In-Reply-To: <C488940C.B036%mmonello@campfirenyc.com>
References: <e03f95410806252005y42dee729uabee78c1d8b0013b@mail.gmail.com>
	<C488940C.B036%mmonello@campfirenyc.com>
Message-ID: <45cb08290806261105i7a87b240r4f4ea1e723a7cbd8@mail.gmail.com>

Mike Monello <mmonello at campfirenyc.com> wrote:

"Many played the game, but Lou played a character, and no retelling of the
story of H3ist would be complete without Lou as a character, not just as a
player."

I believe Lou's character name is Port-a-Lou.  How could you possibly tell
that story without mentioning the best part?  After Nisha outed Lou, he
observed the rest of the op from the comfort of a Port-a-Potty.  :P


"I would say that everyone who participated in a live mission on H3ist was
roleplaying, and that was absolutely central to the game."

Absolutely.  I never would have worn a heavy trenchcoat in that hot and
humid weather nor would I have gotten onto a boat with a crazy man or a
bunch of psycho mimes.  In ARGs, I play the
not-so-concerned-for-my-own-safety Michelle.

Michelle Senderhauf

From bclark at gmdstudios.com  Thu Jun 26 15:36:07 2008
From: bclark at gmdstudios.com (Brian Clark)
Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 15:36:07 -0400
Subject: [arg_discuss] Social Interaction in ARGs
In-Reply-To: <e03f95410806252349q7f6ac41k5fa8186b14a800f5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <016801c8d7c3$e49147a0$6b00a8c0@PKDHEAD>

>"fleshed out personality" is not my requirement. The whole section on
>roleplay is in response to the definition of roleplaying as a social
>interaction pattern as defined by Bjork and Holopainen. This is
>another reason I think why we've been disagreeing.

Well, Bjork and Holopainen aren't here arguing that's a template for looking
at social interactions in ARGs. I'd argue they provided a biased description
of that social interaction that leaves it unduly narrow, leaving many other
in the margins between definitions. Buckets have to be broad to be useful in
a taxonomy like that.

Otherwise, my perspective is like Mike's: some of the magic stuff in the
genre comes out of that roleplay social interaction. 




From cdena at cross-mediaentertainment.com  Fri Jun 27 00:00:00 2008
From: cdena at cross-mediaentertainment.com (Christy Dena)
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2008 13:30:00 +0930
Subject: [arg_discuss] Social Interaction in ARGs
In-Reply-To: <016801c8d7c3$e49147a0$6b00a8c0@PKDHEAD>
References: <e03f95410806252349q7f6ac41k5fa8186b14a800f5@mail.gmail.com>
	<016801c8d7c3$e49147a0$6b00a8c0@PKDHEAD>
Message-ID: <e03f95410806262100j46f8eb72ve7d0c59f52a58a07@mail.gmail.com>

>Well, Bjork and Holopainen aren't here arguing that's a template for looking at social interactions in ARGs.

Doh! FYI: Bjork and Holopainen's book is about patterns for ALL GAMES.

And yes, of course it needs to be developed, and analysed in the
context of ARGs. That is why I started the chart, and subsequent
discussion here.

My first step was to just respond quickly to the categories they
propose, before developing a rewriting of the categories themselves. I
don't have time to write an essay with extensive examples for you
here. I will say that in my experience and analysis of ARGs,
PM-facilitated player-player social interaction through
somewhat-fleshed out player-characters happens rarely, not often. But
in the greater conversation about roleplay and ARGs, yes, there are
lots of other types of roleplay in ARGs:

* with varying degrees of ordinary self-pretend character relations;
* either PM- or player-facilitated;
* for player-player, player-PM or player-FW (fictionalworld) interaction...

On the first point (the continnum), I argue roleplay in ARGs is mostly
on the HIGH-ordinary-self-LOW-pretend-character end.

> Buckets have to be broad to be useful in a taxonomy like that.

Yes, of course. But I think their patterns are a great foundation to
develop insights into ARGs, and that is why I chose theirs above other
approaches. No insights are ever perfect, complete or comprehensive.
It is not a sign of weakness or failure to have something need
changing or complicating. Indeed, one of the things I've learnt about
academia, is that knowledge is seen as an ongoing journey that
generation after generation of scholars contribute to. It is
cumulative and collaborative. It is this drive towards wanting to
develop knowledge being seen as a strength that I'd like to focus on.


On 6/27/08, Brian Clark <bclark at gmdstudios.com> wrote:
>>"fleshed out personality" is not my requirement. The whole section on
>>roleplay is in response to the definition of roleplaying as a social
>>interaction pattern as defined by Bjork and Holopainen. This is
>>another reason I think why we've been disagreeing.
>
> Well, Bjork and Holopainen aren't here arguing that's a template for looking
> at social interactions in ARGs. I'd argue they provided a biased description
> of that social interaction that leaves it unduly narrow, leaving many other
> in the margins between definitions. Buckets have to be broad to be useful in
> a taxonomy like that.
>
> Otherwise, my perspective is like Mike's: some of the magic stuff in the
> genre comes out of that roleplay social interaction.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ARG_Discuss mailing list
> ARG_Discuss at igda.org
> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss
>

From cdena at cross-mediaentertainment.com  Fri Jun 27 11:41:04 2008
From: cdena at cross-mediaentertainment.com (Christy Dena)
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2008 01:11:04 +0930
Subject: [arg_discuss] temporary wave
Message-ID: <e03f95410806270841k4cabfb06i2aa7c62c96c36696@mail.gmail.com>

Oh my. I cannot believe I did this. Two weeks ago I jumped on a plane
and went to the tropics (well, north Australia). I'm here, in the
tropics with no books, just my laptop and a short dial-up connection
time each day. I did this as a self-imposed exile to get some much
needed writing done. And, well, I've ended up being distracted by the
interesting thoughts being shared here. I need to get some work done
and find it easier to be sweetly oblivious to what conversations are
going on, rather than ignoring them. So, I'll be signing of this list
for a while. I'll jump back in for the ARGology launch to share the
excitement though.

I know people come and go on this list all the time, but I've been
active in a few conversations and didn't want people to think I was
ignoring them if they responded. Please feel free to email me directly
if you think there is something I'd appreciate knowing.

Have fun ARG SIGers! I look forward to seeing whatever great stuff you
come up with and release publicly in the future. :)

Best,
Christy

From Bryan.Alexander at nitle.org  Mon Jun 30 12:06:46 2008
From: Bryan.Alexander at nitle.org (Bryan Alexander)
Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2008 12:06:46 -0400
Subject: [arg_discuss] temporary wave
In-Reply-To: <e03f95410806270841k4cabfb06i2aa7c62c96c36696@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e03f95410806270841k4cabfb06i2aa7c62c96c36696@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <08119B28F4B3FF46A5747921C9FAA678B7A68F@AA1EXCH06.office.share.org>

Have a great trip, Cristy.

I'm digging out from under an email accumulation.  Today's goal: inbox
down under 100 messages!

-----Original Message-----
From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org]
On Behalf Of Christy Dena
Sent: Friday, June 27, 2008 11:41 AM
To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG
Subject: [arg_discuss] temporary wave

Oh my. I cannot believe I did this. Two weeks ago I jumped on a plane
and went to the tropics (well, north Australia). I'm here, in the
tropics with no books, just my laptop and a short dial-up connection
time each day. I did this as a self-imposed exile to get some much
needed writing done. And, well, I've ended up being distracted by the
interesting thoughts being shared here. I need to get some work done
and find it easier to be sweetly oblivious to what conversations are
going on, rather than ignoring them. So, I'll be signing of this list
for a while. I'll jump back in for the ARGology launch to share the
excitement though.

I know people come and go on this list all the time, but I've been
active in a few conversations and didn't want people to think I was
ignoring them if they responded. Please feel free to email me directly
if you think there is something I'd appreciate knowing.

Have fun ARG SIGers! I look forward to seeing whatever great stuff you
come up with and release publicly in the future. :)

Best,
Christy
_______________________________________________
ARG_Discuss mailing list
ARG_Discuss at igda.org
http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss