From bclark at gmdstudios.com Fri Aug 1 09:42:45 2008 From: bclark at gmdstudios.com (Brian Clark) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 09:42:45 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] ZOMBIES! (was Open Source ARGs) In-Reply-To: <52582.206.228.139.131.1217457718.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> Message-ID: <012901c8f3dc$7b7d40e0$6b00a8c0@PKDHEAD> You can imagine the strange email I get at GMD Studios, but a subject line of "Partnership Inquiry" rarely actually gets my attention. Unless is it trying to recruit you into making a motion picture with thousands of other filmmakers in an organized narrative divided by states and regions, and then suggests you go to http://www.nationundead.com for more info. I'm such a sucker. What I found, though, is probably of interest to at least a sub-set of this list (those that also play around in moving image storytelling) and, in many ways, their concept raises some interesting questions. If you're engaging the immersive community as creators instead of consumers, are we still in the realm of theory that emerges from the ARGing discipline? If a hypothetical filmmaker-creator-participant stages a zombie flash mob as part of production, are those participants part of that creator side? In essence, though, this is as good and simple of a model of how a large group of people might tell a story together, which seems connected to this "open source ARGs" concept. Brian [the press release they sent me] Minneapolis , MN - July, 27 2008 - The Producing House, Brightline Interactive, Token Media, Patrick Pierson, and Frame Six-Sixteen present Nation Undead. This new interactive website establishes the story of a plague that spreads throughout the country causing fear, panic, the undead, and eventually a total breakdown of society. The story will be told from the unique perspective of stringing together three to five minute submissions from filmmakers from all over the country. This content will be available at Nation Undead, in a nine episode arc. Director Patrick Peirson has divided the United States into nine distinct zones for the purposes of narrative cohesion. Each zone is comprised of six to eight States. The different zones have specific instructions regarding the stories that could be told in that zone. By using Nation Undead, filmmakers will have access to specific zone instructions and will be supplied downloads that can be used in their submission pieces (mp3s, posters, information on the zombies, video props) that will keep the story cohesive. Filmmakers will also be able to use our filmmaker's community to discuss and rate each others' work. The Website itself features the illustrations of Jon Dege, photographs by Tom Kanthak of Reaction Studios with design by Brightline Interactive, RC Johnson. The producing partners comprised of The Producing House, Brightline Interactive, Token Media, Patrick Pierson, and Frame Six-Sixteen bring a wealth of experience in their respective fields to this project. The team has come together to cover all areas of production and quality in filmmaking, media production, interactive web design, and management. From bclark at gmdstudios.com Fri Aug 1 09:51:23 2008 From: bclark at gmdstudios.com (Brian Clark) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 09:51:23 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Open Source ARGs In-Reply-To: <77c653440807301106s1aaef98csf2175ee8d074bae@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <013201c8f3dd$afffd480$6b00a8c0@PKDHEAD> >It seems clear by now that the single biggest audience-limiting aspect of >most ARGs is the inapproachability that stems from their complicated and >multi-tiered systems of obfuscation. I'm not sure that I agree with that, Mark, or maybe my goal isn't to have everyone involved interactively in the same way. I'd argue the "classical ARG" design limitation is the same as the "classical MMPORG" design limitation: How do you provide the constant stimulation that the "heavy user" population wants without closing the door of progress on the more "casual user" population? I'm not trying to diminish your point, though: I think many ARGs suffer that overcomplexity, or an inability to layer that back out into understandability. >A large majority of people who have any initial contact with an ARG >stop "playing" before long because they are unable to grasp what is >going on, what they should pay attention to, what is a good use of >their time, and so on. I'd argue instead that the large majority of people who have any initial contact with an ARG never start "playing" it. There is a role of spectators among the audience of the genre. >The once-popular notion that ARGs are popular BECAUSE they are so hard >to follow has by now surely been set aside as untrue, and yet still >most ARGs today are in need or more clarity and less confusion. I'm not sure that was ever a popular notion: I've never for a second believed that "hard to follow" was what made ARGs popular. Or is your test for player that they understand every wrinkle? Brian From andrhia at gmail.com Fri Aug 1 09:53:07 2008 From: andrhia at gmail.com (Andrea Phillips) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 09:53:07 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] ZOMBIES! (was Open Source ARGs) In-Reply-To: <012901c8f3dc$7b7d40e0$6b00a8c0@PKDHEAD> References: <52582.206.228.139.131.1217457718.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> <012901c8f3dc$7b7d40e0$6b00a8c0@PKDHEAD> Message-ID: <5c799fd60808010653y1cfbc1bdmde02b56387290642@mail.gmail.com> That's really fascinating, Brian, particularly in light of another collaborative film-making project I heard of a few days ago: http://www.coproducer.org/ They seem to be working on the same philosophy, of massive participation in the creation process, but different roles -- management and guidance vs. actual production. I think your Zombies one is more likely to be successful than Coproducer.org, though, because of that central cohesive vision. Storytelling entirely by committee might work sometimes, but the smart money doesn't bet that way. On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 9:42 AM, Brian Clark wrote: > You can imagine the strange email I get at GMD Studios, but a subject line > of "Partnership Inquiry" rarely actually gets my attention. Unless is it > trying to recruit you into making a motion picture with thousands of other > filmmakers in an organized narrative divided by states and regions, and then > suggests you go to http://www.nationundead.com for more info. > > I'm such a sucker. > > What I found, though, is probably of interest to at least a sub-set of this > list (those that also play around in moving image storytelling) and, in many > ways, their concept raises some interesting questions. > > If you're engaging the immersive community as creators instead of consumers, > are we still in the realm of theory that emerges from the ARGing discipline? > If a hypothetical filmmaker-creator-participant stages a zombie flash mob as > part of production, are those participants part of that creator side? > > In essence, though, this is as good and simple of a model of how a large > group of people might tell a story together, which seems connected to this > "open source ARGs" concept. > > > Brian > > [the press release they sent me] > > Minneapolis , MN - July, 27 2008 - The Producing House, Brightline > Interactive, Token Media, Patrick Pierson, and Frame Six-Sixteen present > Nation Undead. This new interactive website establishes the story of a > plague that spreads throughout the country causing fear, panic, the undead, > and eventually a total breakdown of society. The story will be told from the > unique perspective of stringing together three to five minute submissions > from filmmakers from all over the country. This content will be available at > Nation Undead, in a nine episode arc. > > Director Patrick Peirson has divided the United States into nine distinct > zones for the purposes of narrative cohesion. Each zone is comprised of six > to eight States. The different zones have specific instructions regarding > the stories that could be told in that zone. By using Nation Undead, > filmmakers will have access to specific zone instructions and will be > supplied downloads that can be used in their submission pieces (mp3s, > posters, information on the zombies, video props) that will keep the story > cohesive. Filmmakers will also be able to use our filmmaker's community to > discuss and rate each others' work. > > The Website itself features the illustrations of Jon Dege, photographs by > Tom Kanthak of Reaction Studios with design by Brightline Interactive, RC > Johnson. The producing partners comprised of The Producing House, Brightline > Interactive, Token Media, Patrick Pierson, and Frame Six-Sixteen bring a > wealth of experience in their respective fields to this project. The team > has come together to cover all areas of production and quality in > filmmaking, media production, interactive web design, and management. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > -- Andrea Phillips http://www.deusexmachinatio.com Words * Culture * Interaction From baroblik at videotron.ca Fri Aug 1 10:08:22 2008 From: baroblik at videotron.ca (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Genevi=E8ve_Cardin?=) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2008 10:08:22 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Open Source ARGs In-Reply-To: <013201c8f3dd$afffd480$6b00a8c0@PKDHEAD> References: <013201c8f3dd$afffd480$6b00a8c0@PKDHEAD> Message-ID: <14562311-8C2E-491B-AB43-2AFCA9EB8F91@videotron.ca> I just want to say that I agree with all Brian's comments. I'm glad someone who speaks english better than me, has the same arguments as I would like to share. My first ARG reach 90 000 users - locally (Quebec) - few hard things to solve, but most of all, people got involved for the experience - even if it's a lerking one. To be part of something related to a tv show they liked. No one got frustrated with the ? overcomplexity ? - actually they asked for more, and for most of them, it was also their first encounter with the genre. I think that being a part of an ARG is like playing tennis. If you always play with people that hit the ball with the same strength as you do, you will not progress. Stagnation. Genevi?ve Cardin Baroblik communication et multim?dia Consultation, id?ation et sc?narisation de sites web et d'environnements interactifs multi-fen?tres cell : (514) 924-TOUI (8684) baroblik at videotron.ca On 08-08-01, at 09:51, Brian Clark wrote: >> It seems clear by now that the single biggest audience-limiting >> aspect of >> most ARGs is the inapproachability that stems from their >> complicated and >> multi-tiered systems of obfuscation. > > I'm not sure that I agree with that, Mark, or maybe my goal isn't > to have > everyone involved interactively in the same way. I'd argue the > "classical > ARG" design limitation is the same as the "classical MMPORG" design > limitation: > > How do you provide the constant stimulation that the "heavy user" > population > wants without closing the door of progress on the more "casual user" > population? > > I'm not trying to diminish your point, though: I think many ARGs > suffer that > overcomplexity, or an inability to layer that back out into > understandability. > >> A large majority of people who have any initial contact with an ARG >> stop "playing" before long because they are unable to grasp what is >> going on, what they should pay attention to, what is a good use of >> their time, and so on. > > I'd argue instead that the large majority of people who have any > initial > contact with an ARG never start "playing" it. There is a role of > spectators > among the audience of the genre. > >> The once-popular notion that ARGs are popular BECAUSE they are so >> hard >> to follow has by now surely been set aside as untrue, and yet still >> most ARGs today are in need or more clarity and less confusion. > > I'm not sure that was ever a popular notion: I've never for a second > believed that "hard to follow" was what made ARGs popular. Or is > your test > for player that they understand every wrinkle? > > > > Brian > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From markheggen at gmail.com Fri Aug 1 11:15:45 2008 From: markheggen at gmail.com (Mark Heggen) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 11:15:45 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Open Source ARGs In-Reply-To: <013201c8f3dd$afffd480$6b00a8c0@PKDHEAD> References: <77c653440807301106s1aaef98csf2175ee8d074bae@mail.gmail.com> <013201c8f3dd$afffd480$6b00a8c0@PKDHEAD> Message-ID: <77c653440808010815r13a8dee9n6b0f6eb98906cbb7@mail.gmail.com> Brian, thanks so much for your responses. To your points; "I'd argue the "classical ARG" design limitation is the same as the "classical MMPORG" design limitation: How do you provide the constant stimulation that the "heavy user" population wants without closing the door of progress on the more "casual user" population?" "I'd argue instead that the large majority of people who have any initial contact with an ARG never start "playing" it. There is a role of spectators among the audience of the genre." It is common, and often helpful, to split ARG audience members into two groups; hardcore players and causal lurkers. It is clear from any investigation into an ARG that this split does in fact exist. For creators of - and champions for - ARGs it is obviously exciting for us to imagine that the thousands and thousands of people who aren't actively posting on forums or solving puzzles, but have visited our sites, are actively lurking and therefore taking part in the experience in a concrete and important way. Be they fanatic participants or simply captivated audience members, we are glad to have them take part in our work. The problem with this optimistic interpretation of our Google Analytics numbers is that it largely ignores the third type of person who visit our websites; people who show up, get confused, and never come back. As creators of this relatively new form of mediated content, we need to be more honest moving forward about how many people really are involved in these things we make. We, in general, consistently assume and put forward the notion that our projects are populated by giant herds of silent lurkers, when in fact this is quite often not the case. I'm not saying that everyone exaggerates their participants, and there are of course cases when big numbers of lurkers have followed a game with great involvement, but in general I would argue that an aura of overzealous optimism clouds an honest evaluation of the effectiveness of ARGs to capture and then hold the attention of people in large numbers. Clearly ARGs make for great buzz and nice blog posts, but we still have not decisively proven to ourselves, advertisers, or academics that we can maintain attention on a large scale, and I believe that our eagerness to assume that people who have seen our sites but aren't visibly playing are probably actively lurking is a key ingredient to this problem. I'll wrap this up with an experiment. Here we are, a group of people interested in and/or dedicated to ARGs; we took the time to sign up for this list, and many of us do this for a living. Let's consider two titans in recent ARG history: World Without Oil and the Dark Knight ARG. These projects came from some of the biggest names in the ARG world (McGonigal and 42) and were high profile in execution. So, to a room of people who are dedicated to ARGs and in reference to two of the more visible ARGs of recent memory, let me ask three questions: 1) Did you check out WWO and DK? Did you see the image of the Joker being unlocked by page views? Did you see the WWO homepage? Did you see photographs of the Harvey Dent street team handing out campaign stickers? 2) Did you actively play WWO and/or DK? Were you pulling phones out of cakes? Were you putting in real dedicate hours blogging about your post-petroleum life? 3) Did you really honestly lurk on either of these projects? I'm not talking about following a link or two, but did you seriously lurk. Did you read the forums with regularity, energy, and dedication? Did you make these games a part of your life in a serious way, regardless of the casual or hands-off nature of your participation? I presume a lot of us would have to answer yes to question 1 and no to 2 and 3. This is a rhetorical experiment only, so we don't actually have to all submit our answers, but I would encourage everyone to repeat the experiment with other groups, particularly those who are "deeply" involved with ARGs. It is a troublesome fact that most of the people who will MAKE an ARG in the next year never really played OR lurked on any numbers of seminal ARGs, or possibly any at all. The fact is, some people lurk on ARGs, some people actively play ARGs, and many many people think they sound interesting but don't really pay them much attention after their first exposure. This isn't a disaster, this isn't reason not to make them, but it is something that we need to come to terms with. _Mark > > > I'm not trying to diminish your point, though: I think many ARGs suffer > that > overcomplexity, or an inability to layer that back out into > understandability. > > >A large majority of people who have any initial contact with an ARG > >stop "playing" before long because they are unable to grasp what is > >going on, what they should pay attention to, what is a good use of > >their time, and so on. > > I'd argue instead that the large majority of people who have any initial > contact with an ARG never start "playing" it. There is a role of spectators > among the audience of the genre. > > >The once-popular notion that ARGs are popular BECAUSE they are so hard > >to follow has by now surely been set aside as untrue, and yet still > >most ARGs today are in need or more clarity and less confusion. > > I'm not sure that was ever a popular notion: I've never for a second > believed that "hard to follow" was what made ARGs popular. Or is your test > for player that they understand every wrinkle? > > > > Brian > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > From wendeth at wendydespain.com Fri Aug 1 12:10:15 2008 From: wendeth at wendydespain.com (wendy) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 09:10:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [arg_discuss] Open Source ARGs In-Reply-To: <77c653440808010815r13a8dee9n6b0f6eb98906cbb7@mail.gmail.com> References: <77c653440807301106s1aaef98csf2175ee8d074bae@mail.gmail.com> <013201c8f3dd$afffd480$6b00a8c0@PKDHEAD> <77c653440808010815r13a8dee9n6b0f6eb98906cbb7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Aug 2008, Mark Heggen wrote: > It is a troublesome fact that most of the people who will MAKE an ARG in the > next year never really played OR lurked on any numbers of seminal ARGs, or > possibly any at all. Hmm, I agree with you Mark that getting good metrics is a real problem for the genre, but it's most difficult if you think of ARGs in isolation. If you think of it in comparison to a 30-second spot (be it a public service announcement or movie trailer... I'm talking about form, not content here) when they do surveys to find out how effective those 30-second spots are, they count it a success if the respondents know what the product/message is - they don't only count those people who can repeat lines from the spot or tell them in detail what the content consisted of. So I don't think we should completely disregard those people who just follow a few links in an ARG. They're aware of what's going on, and to me that's a win, albeit a small one. As to your concern that the people making ARGs have never played one... (or haven't played one recently) all I can do is point to other entertainment art forms. You may be appalled to find out how few television creators watch (or even like) televsion. Book authors are always struggeling to find time to read books. This isn't an unusual conundrum for creators of any medium. We do our best to keep up with what our peers are doing, but creative endeavors often consume our lives. Just defending the lurkers, I guess. Wendy Despain quantumcontent.com From bclark at gmdstudios.com Fri Aug 1 12:26:49 2008 From: bclark at gmdstudios.com (Brian Clark) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 12:26:49 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Open Source ARGs In-Reply-To: <77c653440808010815r13a8dee9n6b0f6eb98906cbb7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <016101c8f3f3$66fae3e0$6b00a8c0@PKDHEAD> Mark, I think this is an engaging discussion, so if I'm vigorous in my response it is out of that academic "testing of truth" attitude. "... the third type of person who visit our websites; people who show up, get confused, and never come back." I think that needs to be taken with a grain of salt: for even typical content websites, it is typical to lose about 1/3rd of the audience with each subsequent click. Banner bar campaigns are typically satisfied with sub 1% click-thru rates. I'm not arguing that we shouldn't be focused on how to engage a larger percentage of that audience, but in general with ARGs you find you engage a much higher percentage of the audience when you aren't actively advertising/promoting it (as the audience that finds you tends to do more self-selection), but see a huge increase in unique audience with a corresponding huge decrease in stick-time and pages-read-per-user when you're actively spending money on promotion. "We, in general, consistently assume and put forward the notion that our projects are populated by giant herds of silent lurkers, when in fact this is quite often not the case." I think you're jumping to a conclusion there: I'm not discounting the question, mind you, but from my data is that is universal truth. If you pick any particular metric of engagement, you find only a small percentage reaches that mark (for example, registering for a discussion board.) Both Dark Knight and WWO (which you bring up) likely have that exactly same scenario present (for example, I count as a silent lurker of DK and a non-player-aware-of-the-project on WWO). "Clearly ARGs make for great buzz and nice blog posts, but we still have not decisively proven to ourselves, advertisers, or academics that we can maintain attention on a large scale, and I believe that our eagerness to assume that people who have seen our sites but aren't visibly playing are probably actively lurking is a key ingredient to this problem." Again, I think the large scale is in fact what has attracted much of the attention to the genre, and the buzz value of it is actually a subject of debate (for example, did the DK ARG actually create much buzz outside of the Batman fanbase?) Let me tackle your questions: "1) Did you check out WWO and DK? Did you see the image of the Joker being unlocked by page views? Did you see the WWO homepage? Did you see photographs of the Harvey Dent street team handing out campaign stickers?" Yes, I saw. No, I didn't participate, neither of the projects were my cup of tea. I also didn't go see the "Sex in the City" movie or read the "Secrets of the Ya-Ya Sisterhood". Why does any particular piece of art have to appeal to all people? "2) Did you actively play WWO and/or DK? Were you pulling phones out of cakes? Were you putting in real dedicate hours blogging about your post-petroleum life?" Nope ... for the reasons listed above. Why should any ARG advocate feel the need for every ARG to appeal to them, when readers of novels don't expect to be interesting all books and viewers of movies aren't surprised they aren't interested in all films? "3) Did you really honestly lurk on either of these projects? I'm not talking about following a link or two, but did you seriously lurk. Did you read the forums with regularity, energy, and dedication? Did you make these games a part of your life in a serious way, regardless of the casual or hands-off nature of your participation?" See ... now we get to what might be your logical error. I was aware of the progress of both games, of the controversies both games created among their player bases. If the test of "a lurker" is defined differently -- say with the definition of "visited the sites at least once a month" than I probably count as a lurker of both. You're asking whether I followed every twist and turn, which to me is still much much further down the funnel of engagement than "lurk". "The fact is, some people lurk on ARGs, some people actively play ARGs, and many many people think they sound interesting but don't really pay them much attention after their first exposure. This isn't a disaster, this isn't reason not to make them, but it is something that we need to come to terms with." But this is true of all art, and even most advertising. Unless you're selling something like water or toilet paper, you have a target market. Let me do a comparison another way -- if you won the Oscar for Best Documentary, you'd feel like your documentary was rather successful, right? But that doc this year made only $250,000 domestically in the box office -- which is 25,000 ticket buyers. So is a YouTube video with 250,000 viewers 10x as successful? I personally am not interested in making an ARG that has to appeal to everyone, and I probably wouldn't find an ARG designed for everyone to be particular appeal -- but then I don't watch "American Idol" and I don't read "People" magazine and I don't listen to "Top 40" radio either. My perspective is almost the opposite of yours, Mark. 95% of the films, novels, songs, etc. created each year suck ... but no one thinks sucky films means all filmmakers need to rethink the art of filmmaking. Most of that is failure in execution, not in media concept ... and ARGs, like everything else, need to get to the point where they evangelize that best without having to make apologies for the rest, right? Great conversation, hope everyone has a great weekend! -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Mark Heggen Sent: Friday, August 01, 2008 11:16 AM To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] Open Source ARGs Brian, thanks so much for your responses. To your points; "I'd argue the "classical ARG" design limitation is the same as the "classical MMPORG" design limitation: How do you provide the constant stimulation that the "heavy user" population wants without closing the door of progress on the more "casual user" population?" "I'd argue instead that the large majority of people who have any initial contact with an ARG never start "playing" it. There is a role of spectators among the audience of the genre." It is common, and often helpful, to split ARG audience members into two groups; hardcore players and causal lurkers. It is clear from any investigation into an ARG that this split does in fact exist. For creators of - and champions for - ARGs it is obviously exciting for us to imagine that the thousands and thousands of people who aren't actively posting on forums or solving puzzles, but have visited our sites, are actively lurking and therefore taking part in the experience in a concrete and important way. Be they fanatic participants or simply captivated audience members, we are glad to have them take part in our work. The problem with this optimistic interpretation of our Google Analytics numbers is that it largely ignores the third type of person who visit our websites; people who show up, get confused, and never come back. As creators of this relatively new form of mediated content, we need to be more honest moving forward about how many people really are involved in these things we make. We, in general, consistently assume and put forward the notion that our projects are populated by giant herds of silent lurkers, when in fact this is quite often not the case. I'm not saying that everyone exaggerates their participants, and there are of course cases when big numbers of lurkers have followed a game with great involvement, but in general I would argue that an aura of overzealous optimism clouds an honest evaluation of the effectiveness of ARGs to capture and then hold the attention of people in large numbers. Clearly ARGs make for great buzz and nice blog posts, but we still have not decisively proven to ourselves, advertisers, or academics that we can maintain attention on a large scale, and I believe that our eagerness to assume that people who have seen our sites but aren't visibly playing are probably actively lurking is a key ingredient to this problem. I'll wrap this up with an experiment. Here we are, a group of people interested in and/or dedicated to ARGs; we took the time to sign up for this list, and many of us do this for a living. Let's consider two titans in recent ARG history: World Without Oil and the Dark Knight ARG. These projects came from some of the biggest names in the ARG world (McGonigal and 42) and were high profile in execution. So, to a room of people who are dedicated to ARGs and in reference to two of the more visible ARGs of recent memory, let me ask three questions: 1) Did you check out WWO and DK? Did you see the image of the Joker being unlocked by page views? Did you see the WWO homepage? Did you see photographs of the Harvey Dent street team handing out campaign stickers? 2) Did you actively play WWO and/or DK? Were you pulling phones out of cakes? Were you putting in real dedicate hours blogging about your post-petroleum life? 3) Did you really honestly lurk on either of these projects? I'm not talking about following a link or two, but did you seriously lurk. Did you read the forums with regularity, energy, and dedication? Did you make these games a part of your life in a serious way, regardless of the casual or hands-off nature of your participation? I presume a lot of us would have to answer yes to question 1 and no to 2 and 3. This is a rhetorical experiment only, so we don't actually have to all submit our answers, but I would encourage everyone to repeat the experiment with other groups, particularly those who are "deeply" involved with ARGs. It is a troublesome fact that most of the people who will MAKE an ARG in the next year never really played OR lurked on any numbers of seminal ARGs, or possibly any at all. The fact is, some people lurk on ARGs, some people actively play ARGs, and many many people think they sound interesting but don't really pay them much attention after their first exposure. This isn't a disaster, this isn't reason not to make them, but it is something that we need to come to terms with. _Mark > > > I'm not trying to diminish your point, though: I think many ARGs suffer > that > overcomplexity, or an inability to layer that back out into > understandability. > > >A large majority of people who have any initial contact with an ARG > >stop "playing" before long because they are unable to grasp what is > >going on, what they should pay attention to, what is a good use of > >their time, and so on. > > I'd argue instead that the large majority of people who have any initial > contact with an ARG never start "playing" it. There is a role of spectators > among the audience of the genre. > > >The once-popular notion that ARGs are popular BECAUSE they are so hard > >to follow has by now surely been set aside as untrue, and yet still > >most ARGs today are in need or more clarity and less confusion. > > I'm not sure that was ever a popular notion: I've never for a second > believed that "hard to follow" was what made ARGs popular. Or is your test > for player that they understand every wrinkle? > > > > Brian > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From markheggen at gmail.com Fri Aug 1 12:38:56 2008 From: markheggen at gmail.com (Mark Heggen) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 12:38:56 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Open Source ARGs In-Reply-To: References: <77c653440807301106s1aaef98csf2175ee8d074bae@mail.gmail.com> <013201c8f3dd$afffd480$6b00a8c0@PKDHEAD> <77c653440808010815r13a8dee9n6b0f6eb98906cbb7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <77c653440808010938q1a47c3f9u6f3daf7d912d8d02@mail.gmail.com> Wendy, you bring up some excellent points out about the value of even brief exposure; when thought of as on-line advertising, ARGs aren't bad: they get hits more efficiently than many banner ad campaigns, largely because they (for now) bring when them free buzz and viral distribution. However, when considering ARGs as works of art, games, or narrative experiences these brief glimpses of attention from potential audience members can't possibly count for much. If someone glances at the cover of your book but never reads it, it is hard to count that as a victory, and if someone downloads your Facebook game but then deletes it after 2 minutes you probably wouldn't feel really great about that. As for the fact that many puppet-masters were never really players, I would say that it is quite a different situation than we find in other forms of mediation. In ARGs, we have situations where people are generating these things having NEVER actually played one fully. Never ever. Even the overworked author who complains of not being able to find time to read HAS in fact read a great deal over their lives. Imagine if your friend decided that they were going to start writing romance novels professionally, but the closest they had even come to experiencing other romance novels was browsing their covers in Borders. Imagine buying a board game, and then later learning that the designer of that game had really never played a full game of ANY board game in their entire life. Imagine writing a graphic novel, but not being interested enough in other graphic novels to have ever read one all the way through. Many of the grassroots games being put out today are frighteningly similar to the above scenarios, which to me is a troubling fact. This isn't proof of glorious independence or beautiful DIY innovation, but more likely proof of dangerous amounts of johnny-come-lately flash and hype without a solid base of craft, consideration, or aesthetic depth. Of course anyone who wants to try their hand at puppet mastery should give it a go, but it seems strange that so few people are concerned that they never did their homework. Ah, I see Brian's responses now. Will reply later. Thanks everyone for the great discussion. On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 12:10 PM, wendy wrote: > On Fri, 1 Aug 2008, Mark Heggen wrote: > > It is a troublesome fact that most of the people who will MAKE an ARG in >> the >> next year never really played OR lurked on any numbers of seminal ARGs, or >> possibly any at all. >> > > Hmm, I agree with you Mark that getting good metrics is a real problem for > the genre, but it's most difficult if you think of ARGs in isolation. If you > think of it in comparison to a 30-second spot (be it a public service > announcement or movie trailer... I'm talking about form, not content here) > when they do surveys to find out how effective those 30-second spots are, > they count it a success if the respondents know what the product/message is > - they don't only count those people who can repeat lines from the spot or > tell them in detail what the content consisted of. > > So I don't think we should completely disregard those people who just > follow a few links in an ARG. They're aware of what's going on, and to me > that's a win, albeit a small one. > > As to your concern that the people making ARGs have never played one... (or > haven't played one recently) all I can do is point to other entertainment > art forms. You may be appalled to find out how few television creators watch > (or even like) televsion. Book authors are always struggeling to find time > to read books. > > This isn't an unusual conundrum for creators of any medium. We do our best > to keep up with what our peers are doing, but creative endeavors often > consume our lives. > > Just defending the lurkers, I guess. > > Wendy Despain > quantumcontent.com > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > From libfli at aol.com Fri Aug 1 12:45:47 2008 From: libfli at aol.com (libfli at aol.com) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2008 12:45:47 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Open Source ARGs In-Reply-To: References: <77c653440807301106s1aaef98csf2175ee8d074bae@mail.gmail.com> <013201c8f3dd$afffd480$6b00a8c0@PKDHEAD> <77c653440808010815r13a8dee9n6b0f6eb98906cbb7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8CAC20D2EC61C77-830-19B8@webmail-me20.sysops.aol.com> just jumping in on one point here - perhaps it is the artist in me.. but i think it is always best to know as much as possible about whatever art form you're exploring - imo it is best for those jumping onto the ARG bandwagon to at least play a game or two (or ten) before tossing out a game or storyworld. ?pointing to other art forms - would you make a film w/o ever having watched one... oh but you've read about it? ?you could, but it would more than likely suck. ?i would love for more and more people to create good ARGs and push the ARG envelope - ?and i think those who will make great ARGs and push those envelopes will be like the "creators" who do it for other art forms - these creators will love the genre and have a passion for it and want to know as much as they can before they make the big step toward creating an ARG. (stepping off my soap box) Jan -----Original Message----- From: wendy To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG Sent: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 9:10 am Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] Open Source ARGs On Fri, 1 Aug 2008, Mark Heggen wrote:? ? > It is a troublesome fact that most of the people who will MAKE an ARG in the? > next year never really played OR lurked on any numbers of seminal ARGs, or? > possibly any at all.? ? Hmm, I agree with you Mark that getting good metrics is a real problem for the genre, but it's most difficult if you think of ARGs in isolation. If you think of it in comparison to a 30-second spot (be it a public service announcement or movie trailer... I'm talking about form, not content here) when they do surveys to find out how effective those 30-second spots are, they count it a success if the respondents know what the product/message is - they don't only count those people who can repeat lines from the spot or tell them in detail what the content consisted of.? ? So I don't think we should completely disregard those people who just follow a few links in an ARG. They're aware of what's going on, and to me that's a win, albeit a small one.? ? As to your concern that the people making ARGs have never played one... (or haven't played one recently) all I can do is point to other entertainment art forms. You may be appalled to find out how few television creators watch (or even like) televsion. Book authors are always struggeling to find time to read books.? ? This isn't an unusual conundrum for creators of any medium. We do our best to keep up with what our peers are doing, but creative endeavors often consume our lives.? ? Just defending the lurkers, I guess.? ? Wendy Despain? quantumcontent.com? _______________________________________________? ARG_Discuss mailing list? ARG_Discuss at igda.org? http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss? From wendeth at wendydespain.com Fri Aug 1 13:38:53 2008 From: wendeth at wendydespain.com (wendy) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 10:38:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [arg_discuss] Open Source ARGs In-Reply-To: <77c653440808010938q1a47c3f9u6f3daf7d912d8d02@mail.gmail.com> References: <77c653440807301106s1aaef98csf2175ee8d074bae@mail.gmail.com> <013201c8f3dd$afffd480$6b00a8c0@PKDHEAD> <77c653440808010815r13a8dee9n6b0f6eb98906cbb7@mail.gmail.com> <77c653440808010938q1a47c3f9u6f3daf7d912d8d02@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 1 Aug 2008, Mark Heggen wrote: > Wendy, you bring up some excellent points out about the value of even brief > exposure; when thought of as on-line advertising, ARGs aren't bad: they get ... > However, when considering ARGs as works of art, games, or narrative > experiences these brief glimpses of attention from potential audience > members can't possibly count for much. If someone glances at the cover of What about all those people (including myself) who buy a book but take years to get around to reading it (or never do). Is the book a success because everyone's talking about it? Or by how many are sold? I can talk about it - and even read it - without ever buying it. I can buy it because it has a cool cover, but never read it. Can I truly appreciate art if I only see copies of famous oil paintings? Are these paintings successful or trashy if every college student has a poster of that painting on their wall? I don't disagree with what I thought was your main point - we need to lower the barrier to entry so more people can enjoy ARGs. I completely agree. However, I'd rather judge the success of a particular ARG (be it a million dollar ad campaign or a grassroots game) on the individual experience, rather than the credentials of the creators. People who play a ton of ARGs may not be great at creating them. (Though many are.) As an example, I absolutely adore oil paintings... but I'm really no good at creating them myself. I think the broad concept of ARG is an idea whose time has come. Some people are making ARGs without playing previous ones because they didn't know anybody else had even had this idea. Personally, I'm not a fan of giving anybody the credit for "inventing" ARGs because multiple people developed ARG-like things over the last century. So I think some people are still "inventing" the ARG concept, and if the product of their creative kick is a great experience, I don't care if they've never heard of Majestic. On the other hand, it would be great if all ARGs were mind-blowingly good, but as Brian pointed out, when it comes to art, there's always a matter of taste you can't count on. So I don't know. It can be annoying to see people floundering around being terrible at an art form because they haven't done their homework, but I don't think it does any long-term damage to the art form. Wendy Despain quantumcontent.com From mmonello at campfirenyc.com Fri Aug 1 15:24:06 2008 From: mmonello at campfirenyc.com (Mike Monello) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 12:24:06 -0700 Subject: [arg_discuss] Open Source ARGs In-Reply-To: <77c653440808010938q1a47c3f9u6f3daf7d912d8d02@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I don't believe ARGs are mature enough to warrant some kind of study before diving in and making your own. All of us have brought our various experiences from other media to bear on our past and current work without having experienced or studied ARGs in the past, so why should that be a requirement now? 10 years from now, we may start to get experiences from people who have grown up with ARGs, steeped in its past and aware of what came before, but until then we should celebrate the wild west environment we have today, the opportunity for crazy experimentation, the chance to push the definition beyond the confines imposed on it by others. Five years ago, the word "puzzle" would have appeared in any definition of ARG - now, the word doesn't even appear on the "What is an ARG" page of Argology! It's punk rock, man! All of us old geezers suck - form your band and destroy it all! :) -Mike On 8/1/08 12:38 PM, "Mark Heggen" wrote: As for the fact that many puppet-masters were never really players, I would say that it is quite a different situation than we find in other forms of mediation. In ARGs, we have situations where people are generating these things having NEVER actually played one fully. Never ever. Even the overworked author who complains of not being able to find time to read HAS in fact read a great deal over their lives. Imagine if your friend decided that they were going to start writing romance novels professionally, but the closest they had even come to experiencing other romance novels was browsing their covers in Borders. Imagine buying a board game, and then later learning that the designer of that game had really never played a full game of ANY board game in their entire life. Imagine writing a graphic novel, but not being interested enough in other graphic novels to have ever read one all the way through. Many of the grassroots games being put out today are frighteningly similar to the above scenarios, which to me is a troubling fact. This isn't proof of glorious independence or beautiful DIY innovation, but more likely proof of dangerous amounts of johnny-come-lately flash and hype without a solid base of craft, consideration, or aesthetic depth. Of course anyone who wants to try their hand at puppet mastery should give it a go, but it seems strange that so few people are concerned that they never did their homework. --- Mike Monello Partner, Campfire http://www.campfirenyc.com From varineq at gmail.com Fri Aug 1 15:32:25 2008 From: varineq at gmail.com (Michelle Senderhauf) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 14:32:25 -0500 Subject: [arg_discuss] Open Source ARGs In-Reply-To: References: <77c653440808010938q1a47c3f9u6f3daf7d912d8d02@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45cb08290808011232i18daf18cga7a51a80b6ca6dfb@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 2:24 PM, Mike Monello wrote: > > It's punk rock, man! All of us old geezers suck - form your band and > destroy it all! > > That totally just made my morning :D Michelle Senderhauf From mj_williams at mac.com Fri Aug 1 15:54:40 2008 From: mj_williams at mac.com (mj williams) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2008 20:54:40 +0100 Subject: [arg_discuss] Open Source ARGs In-Reply-To: <77c653440808010938q1a47c3f9u6f3daf7d912d8d02@mail.gmail.com> References: <77c653440807301106s1aaef98csf2175ee8d074bae@mail.gmail.com> <013201c8f3dd$afffd480$6b00a8c0@PKDHEAD> <77c653440808010815r13a8dee9n6b0f6eb98906cbb7@mail.gmail.com> <77c653440808010938q1a47c3f9u6f3daf7d912d8d02@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 1 Aug 2008, at 17:38, Mark Heggen wrote: "However, when considering ARGs as works of art, games, or narrative experiences these brief glimpses of attention from potential audience members can't possibly count for much." Isn't that for the members of the audience to decide for themsleves? You can't tell someone they haven't enjoyed a painting because they didn't decode the artist's mother's Catholicism. If they just likes the colours, that's OK, isn't it? "In ARGs, we have situations where people are generating these things having NEVER actually played one fully" Aieee! The anarchy! Two words, Mark: Sex Pistols. thanks marc From markheggen at gmail.com Fri Aug 1 19:17:13 2008 From: markheggen at gmail.com (Mark Heggen) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 19:17:13 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Open Source ARGs In-Reply-To: References: <77c653440807301106s1aaef98csf2175ee8d074bae@mail.gmail.com> <013201c8f3dd$afffd480$6b00a8c0@PKDHEAD> <77c653440808010815r13a8dee9n6b0f6eb98906cbb7@mail.gmail.com> <77c653440808010938q1a47c3f9u6f3daf7d912d8d02@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <77c653440808011617m29200839sf49a7c290150693f@mail.gmail.com> "If they just likes the colours, that's OK, isn't it?" Of course it is OK that people enjoy art to whatever depth and in whatever doses they so choose. The problem emerges when the artists, and others involved, believe that lots and lots of people are experiencing the works when in fact this is not necessarily the case. The problem lies in the reality gap, not simply the level of audience participation. Imagine a studio where a team of dedicated painters spend months and months laboring tirelessly over their paintings, working out each detail meticulously. When they finish a painting it is placed lovingly in the front window of a gallery below their studio, where it is largely ignored by people walking by. As the painters hears the footsteps of the people passing by they congratulate one another on the thousands and thousands of people who must be enjoying their hard work, when in fact very few people took more than a passing glance at the art. This is not a healthy system. It isn't crime or a disaster, but it is not a good way to reach people with your art and your message, nor is it a good way help the painters grow in their craft. Things get even worse when the painters attempt to convince local business owners (standing in for advertisers in the analogy) and academics that their paintings are in fact reaching a lot of people. If you were aware of the situation you wouldn't be right to force the painters to stop their work, but you probably ought to let people know what was really happening. Regarding the Sex Pistols; the notion that the Sex Pistols started their musical career never having HEARD a full song is preposterous. The Sex Pistols, being active participants in a culture, were deeply steeped in a musical history and a musical zeitgeist which influenced and shaped their own work tremendously. Someone creating an ARG without having ever played another ARG fully is not like someone without a traditional sculpture education teaching themselves to sculpt; it is more like someone reading the first half of the Wikipedia article on opera and then trying to create their own opera. This wouldn't be unholy or apocalyptic, but it would deserve a healthy dose of skeptical attention. _Mark From mmonello at campfirenyc.com Fri Aug 1 20:36:24 2008 From: mmonello at campfirenyc.com (Mike Monello) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 17:36:24 -0700 Subject: [arg_discuss] Open Source ARGs In-Reply-To: <77c653440808011617m29200839sf49a7c290150693f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I honestly do not understand your point. Are you saying that professional ARG developers don't know how many people are actually engaging in their experience? I can't speak for others, but we measure everything. I know how many unique visitors we get, how many repeat visitors, how many pages they view, how long they stay, what the bounce rate is (the people who walk by without paying attention), etc. All of that is easily measured. And if what you are doing is marketing, you can also measure how many people you send to a corporate or retail website and often even if they make a purchase or not. When it comes to qualitative measures - did the experience change someone's opinion pf a brand, for example, there are ways to measure, but it is not as exact as the kind of metrics above. Are you suggesting that people are lying about their numbers? Well, everyone always puts their best foot forward, so the metrics that are touted are always the ones that make the project look most successful. That's no different than movies or book sales ("The Number One Romantic Comedy in America" for the fifth highest grossing film that week for example), or anything else. If you are looking for a standard set of criteria to measure success, then join the entire advertising industry. The truth is, it's impossible because individual campaigns have different goals. I've got projects where some goals are simply to get people talking about something, whereas other projects are tied to direct sales. Both require different approaches and both are measure differently. If I have a campaign that nobody on this list ever heard of but has reached 1 million people and has exceeded all it's sales goals, then I've got a success. On the other side, if turning something into a worldwide cultural event is my goal, and I've only reached 1 million people, then I've got a failure. If you are suggesting that people are lying to clients about their metrics, well then that's an ethical issue and has to be dealt with accordingly. As for your second point, I still don't get it. Try this one: Before I made Blair Witch with my Haxan partners, I had never experienced an ARG because there was no such thing back in 1998. I had never engaged in any kind of cross-media entertainment, nor had I engaged in any theater that breaks the boundaries between audience and spectator in such dramatic ways, but that didn't stop me from doing Blair Witch and accomplishing what I think was a successful execution of a cross media entertainment. So again, I just don't understand your point, but I do get the Sex Pistols! Best, Mike On 8/1/08 7:17 PM, "Mark Heggen" wrote: "If they just likes the colours, that's OK, isn't it?" Of course it is OK that people enjoy art to whatever depth and in whatever doses they so choose. The problem emerges when the artists, and others involved, believe that lots and lots of people are experiencing the works when in fact this is not necessarily the case. The problem lies in the reality gap, not simply the level of audience participation. Imagine a studio where a team of dedicated painters spend months and months laboring tirelessly over their paintings, working out each detail meticulously. When they finish a painting it is placed lovingly in the front window of a gallery below their studio, where it is largely ignored by people walking by. As the painters hears the footsteps of the people passing by they congratulate one another on the thousands and thousands of people who must be enjoying their hard work, when in fact very few people took more than a passing glance at the art. This is not a healthy system. It isn't crime or a disaster, but it is not a good way to reach people with your art and your message, nor is it a good way help the painters grow in their craft. Things get even worse when the painters attempt to convince local business owners (standing in for advertisers in the analogy) and academics that their paintings are in fact reaching a lot of people. If you were aware of the situation you wouldn't be right to force the painters to stop their work, but you probably ought to let people know what was really happening. Regarding the Sex Pistols; the notion that the Sex Pistols started their musical career never having HEARD a full song is preposterous. The Sex Pistols, being active participants in a culture, were deeply steeped in a musical history and a musical zeitgeist which influenced and shaped their own work tremendously. Someone creating an ARG without having ever played another ARG fully is not like someone without a traditional sculpture education teaching themselves to sculpt; it is more like someone reading the first half of the Wikipedia article on opera and then trying to create their own opera. This wouldn't be unholy or apocalyptic, but it would deserve a healthy dose of skeptical attention. _Mark _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From mj_williams at mac.com Sat Aug 2 07:50:36 2008 From: mj_williams at mac.com (mj williams) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2008 12:50:36 +0100 Subject: [arg_discuss] Open Source ARGs In-Reply-To: <77c653440808011617m29200839sf49a7c290150693f@mail.gmail.com> References: <77c653440807301106s1aaef98csf2175ee8d074bae@mail.gmail.com> <013201c8f3dd$afffd480$6b00a8c0@PKDHEAD> <77c653440808010815r13a8dee9n6b0f6eb98906cbb7@mail.gmail.com> <77c653440808010938q1a47c3f9u6f3daf7d912d8d02@mail.gmail.com> <77c653440808011617m29200839sf49a7c290150693f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <44A448B1-5192-4679-ACF7-2C064372DC3B@mac.com> On 2 Aug 2008, at 00:17, Mark Heggen wrote: Of course it is OK that people enjoy art to whatever depth and in whatever doses they so choose. The problem emerges when the artists, and others involved, believe that lots and lots of people are experiencing the works when in fact this is not necessarily the case. The problem lies in the reality gap, not simply the level of audience participation. Imagine a studio where a team of dedicated painters spend months and months laboring tirelessly over their paintings, working out each detail meticulously. When they finish a painting it is placed lovingly in the front window of a gallery below their studio, where it is largely ignored by people walking by. As the painters hears the footsteps of the people passing by they congratulate one another on the thousands and thousands of people who must be enjoying their hard work, when in fact very few people took more than a passing glance at the art. Ah, but now your mixing your analogies unfairly - It's not Art's fault it's a loser's game. Seriously though, I feel it's dangerous to speculate on the level of people's engagement with a painting in a window, and to give art it's dues, studios of painters only tended to (and still do to some extent) congregate around a well reputed artist who then used their craft abilities to fulfil his ideas: that we only know about 'Reubens' and not 'Team Reubens' is the same reason someone with a passing interest in advertising might have heard of Tomato, but not know who Michael Horsham is. This is not a healthy system. It isn't crime or a disaster, but it is not a good way to reach people with your art and your message, nor is it a good way help the painters grow in their craft. Things get even worse when the painters attempt to convince local business owners (standing in for advertisers in the analogy) and academics that their paintings are in fact reaching a lot of people. If you were aware of the situation you wouldn't be right to force the painters to stop their work, but you probably ought to let people know what was really happening. I suppose this is the problem with analogising a new medium. It has, in many ways, evolved out of the shoulders of goblins (or something) and trying to measure it against its antecedents doesn't allow you to incorporate its evolutionary steps. Which isn't going to stop me hamfistedly trying. Telling stories around campfires (NYC or anywhere) has always fascinated me, and the previously stated idea that written and recorded media has changed our understandings of stories (and their maleability and reaction to their environment) is why ARGs interest me. So if the best story tellers around my fire contribute to the tale I started telling, that's awesome. But even changing and evolving that one story is going to get boring eventually... and maybe the story at that campfire over there is interesting. If the people around this new fire have only just lit it, and they don't know that much about how we tell stories over at our fire, it doesn't mean I'm not going to enjoy it - especially if they've got glo-sticks. And crucially, if their story is rubbish, I'll go back to my fire. Or I might go over to that other fire... If ARGs are different from Campfire stories, it's maybe in the way that puzzles (there's that word again) have become an integral part of the story. By unlocking it you get a bit more material until you reach the next puzzle, staggering your progress through the story. (Maybe that's the influence of the well-rehearsed locked linear narratives - the impasse to the main thrust that requires an alternative action and a new narrative direction to move forward. Just a thought.) **warning: talking about his kids alert** Daisy, my eldest daughter, is currently engaged in making a book of The adventures of Peter Pan, Wendy and Tinkerbell. She hasn't read the original (she is only 4) but she's seen a couple of film versions and now she's taking those characters and making up adventures for them to have. My role (as Puppetmaster/Daddy) is to create the problems (after the well-rehearsed opening sequence) we have to overcome. As it happens, we are about to start reading the JM Barrie book (she and Mummy have just finished The Enchanted Wood), because she might understand it more now she's bigger. Should I have not let her watch the films until she had read the book? Until she can explain to me why Wendy's daddy is so cross? Regarding the Sex Pistols; the notion that the Sex Pistols started their musical career never having HEARD a full song is preposterous. The Sex Pistols, being active participants in a culture, were deeply steeped in a musical history and a musical zeitgeist which influenced and shaped their own work tremendously. Someone creating an ARG without having ever played another ARG fully is not like someone without a traditional sculpture education teaching themselves to sculpt; it is more like someone reading the first half of the Wikipedia article on opera and then trying to create their own opera. This wouldn't be unholy or apocalyptic, but it would deserve a healthy dose of skeptical attention. A whole song? Well, in the immortal words of Derek Smalls, "that's a cosy ten minutes" - and I'm not aware of any 10-minute ARGs in development (I'm excluding R Kelly on moral grounds). Whether the sex pistols ever heard a full song (and I'm going to stick my neck out and say at least one of them had) is not the point: they weren't taking their inspiration from within the world of music. They, and their manager, were drawing it from the world around them. The only thing the Sex Pistols ever got steeped in was cheap cider. best marc mj williams | www.bushofgoats.com/bookofworks | mj_williams at mac.com | +44(0)7971 004821 From bclark at gmdstudios.com Sat Aug 2 09:59:39 2008 From: bclark at gmdstudios.com (Brian Clark) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2008 09:59:39 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] ARG Criticsms (RE:Open Source ARGs) In-Reply-To: <77c653440808011617m29200839sf49a7c290150693f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <001e01c8f4a8$0242e280$0402a8c0@Tricorder> Mark, interesting conversation, and I think MJ did a good job of capturing some of the "art criticism" aspect. I wonder, though, if a couple of the wrinkles you mentioned aren't actually more the core of what you're trying to describe. May I? Mark wrote: "The problem emerges when the artists, and others involved, believe that lots and lots of people are experiencing the works when in fact this is not necessarily the case." I get the sentiment, but think the actual causes might be slightly different than how you're phrasing it. Some of it is outright puffery via Twain's Law of Statistics ("there's three kind of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics") for self-promotional or client-promotional benefit. Some of it is definitional, as the important statistics to different industries come crashing together head-first: sorting out the engagement vs. reach is something "new media" is having a hard time with, not just ARGing. Some of it might just be plain ignorance, as statistic methodologies aren't exactly a required trait for actual creation of an ARG (only its evaluation). So I'm not sure that the misperception of audience size necessarily leads to the problems you end up describing, but if you're starting from the claims of audience size after-the-fact, you've hit a fair area of media criticism for ARGs. Let's be clear, though, there are also fair criticisms of Neilson's methodologies for estimating television viewership, and the NY Times "Best Sellers" list is about copies in stores not copies bought by individuals, etc. So I think the analogy that follow up with ends up suffering some flaws, as it assumes "popularity" is some important intrinsic trait. In reality, in the advertising funded arena, it works something like this: Scared Ad Account Exec (SAAE): OMG! The traffic numbers of unique visitors on the websites isn't as high as we hoped, what do we do? ARG Consultant (ARGC): That's a reach metric. Reach metrics are connected to active marketing. Squirt $X into this ad channel and reach will increase. SAAE: OMG! So traffic is up, but average stick time and pages per session are down! Many of them never even came back a second session! What do we do? ARGC: Those are engagement metric. Engagement metrics are connected to the self-engagement of the audience with each other through an activity. Tailor an expansion of the experience to meet the expectations of the new audience you just paid to attract. SAAE: But won't that make the reach go down? It will make it more complex! Aren't people not getting engaged because it's so complex? ARGC: No, they're not getting involved because the depth of their commitment so far was to click a banner bar that didn't actually describe what they would be experiencing ... but that same technique increase the click-rate, and you wanted a higher reach number. Reach will continue to be impacted by advertising that recruits fresh potential audience. These things are very interconnected, but in any system as complex as the fluid dynamics of audience attention, any attempt to optimize one cluster of numbers will have affects on some other cluster of numbers. This is not the way most traditional online marketing or publishing is focused in measurement models either: they think of it more as a series of missles in organized salvos called "media plans" :P None of this though has very much to do with ARG as an artform, it has to do with the existing mechanics of how much of that art (from DK to WWO) gets funded and what it has to do to justify its existence. Ask Jan Libby, though, what her important metrics were for her independent games, and you'll get an entirely different set of answers. So is your criticism, thus, really more of the justifications to the existing funding models instead of the artistic intent of the practitioners? -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Mark Heggen Sent: Friday, August 01, 2008 7:17 PM To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] Open Source ARGs "If they just likes the colours, that's OK, isn't it?" Of course it is OK that people enjoy art to whatever depth and in whatever doses they so choose. The problem emerges when the artists, and others involved, believe that lots and lots of people are experiencing the works when in fact this is not necessarily the case. The problem lies in the reality gap, not simply the level of audience participation. Imagine a studio where a team of dedicated painters spend months and months laboring tirelessly over their paintings, working out each detail meticulously. When they finish a painting it is placed lovingly in the front window of a gallery below their studio, where it is largely ignored by people walking by. As the painters hears the footsteps of the people passing by they congratulate one another on the thousands and thousands of people who must be enjoying their hard work, when in fact very few people took more than a passing glance at the art. This is not a healthy system. It isn't crime or a disaster, but it is not a good way to reach people with your art and your message, nor is it a good way help the painters grow in their craft. Things get even worse when the painters attempt to convince local business owners (standing in for advertisers in the analogy) and academics that their paintings are in fact reaching a lot of people. If you were aware of the situation you wouldn't be right to force the painters to stop their work, but you probably ought to let people know what was really happening. Regarding the Sex Pistols; the notion that the Sex Pistols started their musical career never having HEARD a full song is preposterous. The Sex Pistols, being active participants in a culture, were deeply steeped in a musical history and a musical zeitgeist which influenced and shaped their own work tremendously. Someone creating an ARG without having ever played another ARG fully is not like someone without a traditional sculpture education teaching themselves to sculpt; it is more like someone reading the first half of the Wikipedia article on opera and then trying to create their own opera. This wouldn't be unholy or apocalyptic, but it would deserve a healthy dose of skeptical attention. _Mark _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From brooke at mirlandano.com Sat Aug 2 15:15:32 2008 From: brooke at mirlandano.com (Brooke Thompson) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2008 15:15:32 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Open Source ARGs In-Reply-To: <5c799fd60807301209h68e5f30dydc119eab0de4b9ec@mail.gmail.com> References: <16780884.1217407323202.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <5c799fd60807301209h68e5f30dydc119eab0de4b9ec@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Jul 30, 2008, at 3:09 PM, Andrea Phillips wrote: > And the very concept of > gamejacking that's come into existence since then. The act of a player > creating within the context of the game world has taken on hostile > connotations and is actively discouraged by the community at this > point. Which, well, it's too bad, and in retrospect I feel terrible > that I was a part of fostering that culture of intolerance. Sigh. I disagree with this. A number of players and puppetmasters love it when players create within the context of the game world. They just like it to be done within some parameters in order to avoid confusion. Look at WWO - the entire game was about players creating within the framework provided by the puppetmasters. They were putting themselves into the story and letting the player imagination take the lead. Beyond WWO, a number of games have created and called out for player- generated content: from images of players doing things to short stories and articles written within the game universe. Some games let players take control over certain aspects of the narrative in order to let them lead the direction of the game. My favorite forum posts are not "SOLVED!" but are the ones where players are taking game elements and expanding upon them - from photoshopping game images to latching onto characters and other narrative elements to create wild speculations of what this might all mean and where it might go. Isn't that a form of creation and story building within the context of the game universe? It's all about the parameters created (either by the player community or the designers of the experience) in order to reduce the confusion on the player-base as a whole. If a framework was set-up that would reduce or support that confusion (such as the one created by WWO), I think that players would actively embrace "gamejacking". (this doesn't even get into Lonelygirl 15 -- they actually hired one of their "gamejackers" to help create some of their more arg-ish elements) From dflor at dlimedia.com Sat Aug 2 15:58:09 2008 From: dflor at dlimedia.com (David Flor) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2008 15:58:09 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Open Source ARGs In-Reply-To: References: <16780884.1217407323202.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <5c799fd60807301209h68e5f30dydc119eab0de4b9ec@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4894BC51.9000004@dlimedia.com> I think I might hold the record for the longest fan-created unFiction thread that was based on a game that, at the time, didn't exist. For my currently running game (which I call "ShadowWatch", but the UF guys refer to as "BoL/SiD"), I created a membership page shortly after I finished LGL. As a result of that page, and the months between that page's discovery and the official launch of the game, in order for players to keep interested they began creating their own story. So my little run of the mill ARG, which hadn't even been launched yet and nobody knew anything about, ballooned in to the 49-page "Pastry Wars" thread on unFiction ( http://forums.unfiction.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=25020 ). Several people on UF now have their pastry affiliation in their signature, even in the form of graphics. There have also been two ARGs since then based on the whole pastry theme, all generated by fans (they asked for my blessing, and I obviously encouraged it). It felt kind of weird that the "pre-game" and the two new games the fans created were more captivating than my own game, and it is something that to this day is kind of hard to live up to. As part of LGL I invited fans to submit artistic recommendations - books, artwork, songs, etc... - and the response I got was fantastic. And I did end up using their recommendations for game content (for Joshua's reviews and for elements of the "four paths" puzzle set). It was kind of pleasing to see their reaction when the game responded to their suggestions and their input, and the sensation they had that they were in control of the game made it all the more enjoyable. For my next game I am kicking around some ideas about making it more player driven, mainly because it's going to have some artistic aspects that I am not very good at. We'll see how it goes. Tnx & Rgds... David Flor - dflor at dlimedia.com Darklight Interactive - http://www.dlimedia.com/ "Omne ignotum pro magnifico" Brooke Thompson wrote: > On Jul 30, 2008, at 3:09 PM, Andrea Phillips wrote: >> And the very concept of >> gamejacking that's come into existence since then. The act of a player >> creating within the context of the game world has taken on hostile >> connotations and is actively discouraged by the community at this >> point. Which, well, it's too bad, and in retrospect I feel terrible >> that I was a part of fostering that culture of intolerance. Sigh. > > > I disagree with this. A number of players and puppetmasters love it > when players create within the context of the game world. They just > like it to be done within some parameters in order to avoid confusion. > > Look at WWO - the entire game was about players creating within the > framework provided by the puppetmasters. They were putting themselves > into the story and letting the player imagination take the lead. > > Beyond WWO, a number of games have created and called out for > player-generated content: from images of players doing things to short > stories and articles written within the game universe. Some games let > players take control over certain aspects of the narrative in order to > let them lead the direction of the game. My favorite forum posts are > not "SOLVED!" but are the ones where players are taking game elements > and expanding upon them - from photoshopping game images to latching > onto characters and other narrative elements to create wild > speculations of what this might all mean and where it might go. Isn't > that a form of creation and story building within the context of the > game universe? > > It's all about the parameters created (either by the player community > or the designers of the experience) in order to reduce the confusion > on the player-base as a whole. If a framework was set-up that would > reduce or support that confusion (such as the one created by WWO), I > think that players would actively embrace "gamejacking". > > (this doesn't even get into Lonelygirl 15 -- they actually hired one > of their "gamejackers" to help create some of their more arg-ish > elements) > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > > From a.r.nakama at gmail.com Sun Aug 3 13:59:24 2008 From: a.r.nakama at gmail.com (A Nakama) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2008 13:59:24 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Open Source ARGs In-Reply-To: <8CAC20D2EC61C77-830-19B8@webmail-me20.sysops.aol.com> References: <77c653440807301106s1aaef98csf2175ee8d074bae@mail.gmail.com> <013201c8f3dd$afffd480$6b00a8c0@PKDHEAD> <77c653440808010815r13a8dee9n6b0f6eb98906cbb7@mail.gmail.com> <8CAC20D2EC61C77-830-19B8@webmail-me20.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Speaking specifically to this end of the conversation, I want to add a similar sentiment, in that most of the working writers I know are constantly grumping that the neophytes don't know the history of their art form--and editors are constantly rejecting stories that have been done by masters decades ago. In nonfiction writing, you can get away with repetition because that's the name of the game (how many articles on video game violence have we all seen in how many venues?). But most of the successful writers of commercial fiction are ones who have read widely in their chosen field. As far as ARGs go, yes, we still have that Wild West feel--but I came to puppetmastering through school, and I noticed after I joined a whole slew of other people coming here from educational institutions as students rather than professors. And even if you gripe about game education in general, in order to have a curriculum, you still need a little more structure than "Go forth and screw around with gamedev tools!" When it came to ARGs, that involved a little bit of history and seeing what other successful and not successful ARGs have done. In other words, punk is dead, and we've moved onto grunge. :) ~ Adam Nakama On 8/1/08, libfli at aol.com wrote: > > just jumping in on one point here - perhaps it is the artist in me.. but i > think it is always best to know as much as possible about whatever art form > you're exploring - > imo it is best for those jumping onto the ARG bandwagon to at least play a > game or two (or ten) before tossing out a game or storyworld. pointing to > other art forms - > > would you make a film w/o ever having watched one... oh but you've read > about it? you could, but it would more than likely suck. i would love for > more and more people to > > create good ARGs and push the ARG envelope - and i think those who will > make great ARGs and push those envelopes will be like the "creators" who do > it for > > other art forms - these creators will love the genre and have a passion for > it and want to know as much as they can before they make the big step toward > creating an ARG. > > > > > (stepping off my soap box) > > > > > Jan > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: wendy > To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG > Sent: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 9:10 am > Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] Open Source ARGs > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 1 Aug 2008, Mark Heggen wrote: > > > > It is a troublesome fact that most of the people who will MAKE an ARG in > the > > > next year never really played OR lurked on any numbers of seminal ARGs, > or > > > possibly any at all. > > > Hmm, I agree with you Mark that getting good metrics is a real problem for > the genre, but > it's most difficult if you think of ARGs in isolation. If > you think of it in comparison to a 30-second spot (be it a public service > announcement or movie trailer... I'm talking about form, not content here) > when they do surveys to find out how effective those 30-second spots are, > they count it a success if the respondents know what the product/message > is - they don't only count those people who can repeat lines from the spot > or tell them in detail what the content consisted of. > > > So I don't think we should completely disregard those people who just > follow a few links in an ARG. They're aware of what's going on, and to me > that's a win, albeit a small one. > > > As to your concern that the people making ARGs have never played one... > (or haven't played one recently) all I can do is point to other > entertainment art forms. You may be appalled to find out how few > television creators watch (or even like) televsion. Book authors are > always struggeling to find time to read books. > > > This isn't an unusual conundrum for creators of any medium. We do our best > to keep up with what our peers are doing, but creative endeavors often > consume our lives. > > > Just defending the lurkers, I guess. > > > Wendy Despain > > quantumcontent.com > > _______________________________________________ > > ARG_Discuss mailing list > > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > From andrhia at gmail.com Thu Aug 7 08:50:57 2008 From: andrhia at gmail.com (Andrea Phillips) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 08:50:57 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Post Mortems Message-ID: <5c799fd60808070550x41c4c07bg952d390ff6bbb871@mail.gmail.com> Do you know what would be really awesome? Is if people here could get into the habit of posting post-mortems of their projects when they're done. Doesn't have to be anything spectacularly formal, just "Hey, I did this thing, and we did this really great innovative element, turns out provider A is perfect for B service in our genre, players really liked X, we wanted to do Y but it didn't pan out." This is selfish me trying to find a way to keep up on what's going on in the genre without spending half of my life on Unfiction. ^_^ -- Andrea Phillips http://www.deusexmachinatio.com Words * Culture * Interaction From dan at sixtostart.com Thu Aug 7 08:57:09 2008 From: dan at sixtostart.com (Dan Hon) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 13:57:09 +0100 Subject: [arg_discuss] Post Mortems In-Reply-To: <5c799fd60808070550x41c4c07bg952d390ff6bbb871@mail.gmail.com> References: <5c799fd60808070550x41c4c07bg952d390ff6bbb871@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <844C1E56-73FA-4E6A-8B31-92FD243C2AD8@sixtostart.com> The GamaSutra post-mortems are fantastic examples of how this should be done. Dan On 7 Aug 2008, at 13:50, Andrea Phillips wrote: > Do you know what would be really awesome? Is if people here could get > into the habit of posting post-mortems of their projects when they're > done. Doesn't have to be anything spectacularly formal, just "Hey, I > did this thing, and we did this really great innovative element, turns > out provider A is perfect for B service in our genre, players really > liked X, we wanted to do Y but it didn't pan out." > > This is selfish me trying to find a way to keep up on what's going on > in the genre without spending half of my life on Unfiction. ^_^ > > -- > Andrea Phillips > http://www.deusexmachinatio.com > Words * Culture * Interaction > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From mmonello at campfirenyc.com Thu Aug 7 10:13:16 2008 From: mmonello at campfirenyc.com (Mike Monello) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 07:13:16 -0700 Subject: [arg_discuss] Post Mortems In-Reply-To: <5c799fd60808070550x41c4c07bg952d390ff6bbb871@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: One of my biggest frustrations is not being allowed to share a lot of interesting data due to client's desires to keep everything "proprietary." The struggle is how to share something that is detailed enough that others can learn from but doesn't violate the typical NDA - especially in a forum that is archived, open to the public and can be quoted! -Mike On 8/7/08 8:50 AM, "Andrea Phillips" wrote: Do you know what would be really awesome? Is if people here could get into the habit of posting post-mortems of their projects when they're done. Doesn't have to be anything spectacularly formal, just "Hey, I did this thing, and we did this really great innovative element, turns out provider A is perfect for B service in our genre, players really liked X, we wanted to do Y but it didn't pan out." This is selfish me trying to find a way to keep up on what's going on in the genre without spending half of my life on Unfiction. ^_^ -- Andrea Phillips http://www.deusexmachinatio.com Words * Culture * Interaction _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss --- Mike Monello Partner, Campfire http://www.campfirenyc.com From cdena at cross-mediaentertainment.com Mon Aug 11 23:54:15 2008 From: cdena at cross-mediaentertainment.com (Christy Dena) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 13:54:15 +1000 Subject: [arg_discuss] congrats Campfire! Message-ID: <20080812035417.JJHP23560.nskntotgx03p.mx.bigpond.com@HPPIE> "Expanding the universe of an existing property, whether a film or TV show, further through deeper stories involving marginal characters is not a new type of storytelling, witness the cottage industry of Star Wars and Star Trek literature. But True Blood's is an exceptional case in that the peripheral mythology has been written by an agency. The success of Campfire's latest creation is obviously based on the storytelling prowess of Cain and Hale, along with the agency's respect for the overall artistic integrity of the show." http://creativity-online.com/?action=news:article &newsId=130134§ionName=behind_the_work From andrhia at gmail.com Tue Aug 12 11:58:01 2008 From: andrhia at gmail.com (Andrea Phillips) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 11:58:01 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Next IRC Chat: Aug. 17 In-Reply-To: <20080730073233.IFVD9085.nschwotgx03p.mx.bigpond.com@HPPIE> References: <5c799fd60807291112g10963a3cr875214dcc01c50eb@mail.gmail.com> <20080730073233.IFVD9085.nschwotgx03p.mx.bigpond.com@HPPIE> Message-ID: <5c799fd60808120858n7c8329f1hdaab5588d434fb9a@mail.gmail.com> Just repeating the announcement below as a reminder. In the interest of fairness, I think we'll set up the next one to be during a weekday, 8am PST/ 11am EST/ 4pm BST/ 1am in Sydney, unless somebody has a better idea for a time of day. :) *** I'm unilaterally calling for a SIG IRC chat on Sunday August 17, 2008 at 6pm EST (U.S.), 3pm PST, 11pm BST, 8am Monday morning EST (Australia). Mark your calendars! Do let me know if I've embarrassingly picked a date that conflicts with some big conference everyone will be attending or some similar thing. If there's enough displeasure at my arbitrary date, I'm happy to reschedule. If you have items you'd like to see on the agenda, please let me know! Right now I've got nothin'. HOW TO GET ON IRC For those of us who may not be familiar with IRC, you first need to download a client such as mIRC for Windows (http://www.mirc.org/) or Colloquy for OSX (http://colloquy.info/downloads.html). When you have it downloaded and installed, you will need to connect to a server. Ours is irc.chat-solutions.org. The port you will need is the default, 6667. Once you have a connection to the server, you need to join the SIG chat channel, which is #arg_sig You may also use the Unfiction applet here: http://www.unfiction.com/chat/ Just make sure to input #arg_sig into the channel field, plus your name & etc. If you've never used IRC before and you're a little worried, I'd encourage you to try it out ahead of time, it won't hurt anything. :) And feel free to email me if you're having trouble getting everything all set up. As always if you have anything you'd like to add to the agenda, or any other questions or comments, please post or email. Hope to see you all there! -- Andrea Phillips http://www.deusexmachinatio.com Words * Culture * Interaction From mmonello at campfirenyc.com Thu Aug 14 15:09:43 2008 From: mmonello at campfirenyc.com (Mike Monello) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 12:09:43 -0700 Subject: [arg_discuss] congrats Campfire! In-Reply-To: <20080812035417.JJHP23560.nskntotgx03p.mx.bigpond.com@HPPIE> Message-ID: Thanks, Christy. It's been an interesting project, to say the least, and we learned a lot from it. I hope to be on the IRC chat Sunday and maybe I can share some of that. Most fascinating, to me, has been the reaction of the hardcore ARG community to something that looked like an ARG but lacked many "core" aspects of one. For example, TB asked the audience to do more role play and social engineering rather than puzzle solving. While those who have played previous ARGs seemed to hate it, people new to this kind of experience took to it like wildfire -- the community was extremely active and it pushed into the "mainstream" in ways that our previous more traditional ARG-like projects did not. Anyhow, I'll try and make the chat on Sunday, I'd love to have some god discussion on everything that's been flying around the list the past month! Best, Mike On 8/11/08 11:54 PM, "Christy Dena" wrote: "Expanding the universe of an existing property, whether a film or TV show, further through deeper stories involving marginal characters is not a new type of storytelling, witness the cottage industry of Star Wars and Star Trek literature. But True Blood's is an exceptional case in that the peripheral mythology has been written by an agency. The success of Campfire's latest creation is obviously based on the storytelling prowess of Cain and Hale, along with the agency's respect for the overall artistic integrity of the show." http://creativity-online.com/?action=news:article &newsId=130134§ionName=behind_the_work _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From adrijackmarie at gmail.com Thu Aug 14 15:34:38 2008 From: adrijackmarie at gmail.com (Adrien Marie) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 21:34:38 +0200 Subject: [arg_discuss] congrats Campfire! In-Reply-To: References: <20080812035417.JJHP23560.nskntotgx03p.mx.bigpond.com@HPPIE> Message-ID: <111e86d20808141234m7f03ecg488d9d54331242a9@mail.gmail.com> just to be perfectly sure: what time for the Irc (london zone) ? 2008/8/14 Mike Monello > Thanks, Christy. It's been an interesting project, to say the least, and we > learned a lot from it. I hope to be on the IRC chat Sunday and maybe I can > share some of that. > > Most fascinating, to me, has been the reaction of the hardcore ARG > community to something that looked like an ARG but lacked many "core" > aspects of one. For example, TB asked the audience to do more role play and > social engineering rather than puzzle solving. While those who have played > previous ARGs seemed to hate it, people new to this kind of experience took > to it like wildfire -- the community was extremely active and it pushed into > the "mainstream" in ways that our previous more traditional ARG-like > projects did not. > > Anyhow, I'll try and make the chat on Sunday, I'd love to have some god > discussion on everything that's been flying around the list the past month! > > Best, > > Mike > > On 8/11/08 11:54 PM, "Christy Dena" > wrote: > > > > > "Expanding the universe of an existing property, whether a film or TV show, > further through deeper stories involving marginal characters is not a new > type of storytelling, witness the cottage industry of Star Wars and Star > Trek literature. But True Blood's is an exceptional case in that the > peripheral mythology has been written by an agency. The success of > Campfire's latest creation is obviously based on the storytelling prowess > of > Cain and Hale, along with the agency's respect for the overall artistic > integrity of the show." > > > > http://creativity-online.com/?action=news:article > < > http://creativity-online.com/?action=news:article&newsId=130134§ionName > =behind_the_work> > &newsId=130134§ionName=behind_the_work > > > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > -- -- -- A.j Marie /| From andrhia at gmail.com Thu Aug 14 15:37:08 2008 From: andrhia at gmail.com (Andrea Phillips) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 15:37:08 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] congrats Campfire! In-Reply-To: <111e86d20808141234m7f03ecg488d9d54331242a9@mail.gmail.com> References: <20080812035417.JJHP23560.nskntotgx03p.mx.bigpond.com@HPPIE> <111e86d20808141234m7f03ecg488d9d54331242a9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5c799fd60808141237w7ce74d90q2ec94cb9920cabe6@mail.gmail.com> It's 11pm London time. (Sorry...) -- Andrea Phillips http://www.deusexmachinatio.com Words * Culture * Interaction From adrijackmarie at gmail.com Thu Aug 14 16:17:24 2008 From: adrijackmarie at gmail.com (Adrien Marie) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 22:17:24 +0200 Subject: [arg_discuss] congrats Campfire! In-Reply-To: <5c799fd60808141237w7ce74d90q2ec94cb9920cabe6@mail.gmail.com> References: <20080812035417.JJHP23560.nskntotgx03p.mx.bigpond.com@HPPIE> <111e86d20808141234m7f03ecg488d9d54331242a9@mail.gmail.com> <5c799fd60808141237w7ce74d90q2ec94cb9920cabe6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <111e86d20808141317y3c5b113ewd3907dc9460cbd97@mail.gmail.com> when the sun comes up or down (sorry) ya know that in France we are running on h24... xx LOL 2008/8/14 Andrea Phillips > It's 11pm London time. (Sorry...) > > -- > Andrea Phillips > http://www.deusexmachinatio.com > Words * Culture * Interaction > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > -- -- -- A.j Marie /| From wendeth at wendydespain.com Thu Aug 14 17:07:25 2008 From: wendeth at wendydespain.com (Wendy Despain) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 14:07:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [arg_discuss] congrats Campfire! In-Reply-To: <111e86d20808141317y3c5b113ewd3907dc9460cbd97@mail.gmail.com> References: <20080812035417.JJHP23560.nskntotgx03p.mx.bigpond.com@HPPIE> <111e86d20808141234m7f03ecg488d9d54331242a9@mail.gmail.com> <5c799fd60808141237w7ce74d90q2ec94cb9920cabe6@mail.gmail.com> <111e86d20808141317y3c5b113ewd3907dc9460cbd97@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <56869.206.228.139.131.1218748045.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> That would be 23:00 - one hour before midnight. :-) Wendy Despain quantumcontent.com On Thu, August 14, 2008 1:17 pm, Adrien Marie wrote: > when the sun comes up or down (sorry) ya know that in France we are > running > on h24... > xx > LOL > > 2008/8/14 Andrea Phillips > >> It's 11pm London time. (Sorry...) >> >> -- >> Andrea Phillips >> http://www.deusexmachinatio.com >> Words * Culture * Interaction >> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >> > > > > -- > -- > -- > A.j Marie > /| > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > Wendy Despain quantumcontent.com From andrhia at gmail.com Sun Aug 17 09:27:02 2008 From: andrhia at gmail.com (Andrea Phillips) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2008 09:27:02 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] IRC Chat Today! Message-ID: <5c799fd60808170627x2c931123ia7ac5c58f6aadb95@mail.gmail.com> Here's your quick reminder: The ARG SIG IRC chat is going to happen today, in about eight and a half hours from my sending this email! The time is: Sunday August 17, 2008 at 6pm EST (U.S.), 3pm PST, 11pm BST, 8am Monday morning EST (Australia). I never got agenda items, but I'm sure we'll think of something to talk about! HOW TO GET ON IRC For those of us who may not be familiar with IRC, you first need to download a client such as mIRC for Windows (http://www.mirc.org/) or Colloquy for OSX (http://colloquy.info/downloads.html). When you have it downloaded and installed, you will need to connect to a server. Ours is irc.chat-solutions.org. The port you will need is the default, 6667. Once you have a connection to the server, you need to join the SIG chat channel, which is #arg_sig (including the pound sign, it's important). You may also use the Unfiction applet here: http://www.unfiction.com/chat/ Just make sure to input #arg_sig into the channel field, plus your name & etc. If you've never used IRC before and you're a little worried, I'd encourage you to try it out ahead of time, it won't hurt anything. :) And feel free to email me if you're having trouble getting everything all set up. -- Andrea Phillips http://www.deusexmachinatio.com Words * Culture * Interaction From adrijackmarie at gmail.com Sun Aug 17 17:15:37 2008 From: adrijackmarie at gmail.com (Adrien Marie) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2008 23:15:37 +0200 Subject: [arg_discuss] IRC Chat Today! In-Reply-To: <5c799fd60808170627x2c931123ia7ac5c58f6aadb95@mail.gmail.com> References: <5c799fd60808170627x2c931123ia7ac5c58f6aadb95@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <111e86d20808171415y2faf624bhf13059f43dbba0d8@mail.gmail.com> I am unabledto connect either with colloquy than through over. 2008/8/17 Andrea Phillips > Here's your quick reminder: The ARG SIG IRC chat is going to happen > today, in about eight and a half hours from my sending this email! > > The time is: Sunday August 17, 2008 at 6pm EST (U.S.), 3pm PST, 11pm > BST, 8am Monday morning EST > (Australia). I never got agenda items, but I'm sure we'll think of > something to talk about! > > HOW TO GET ON IRC > > For those of us who may not be familiar with IRC, you first need to > download a client such as mIRC for Windows (http://www.mirc.org/) or > Colloquy for OSX (http://colloquy.info/downloads.html). > > When you have it downloaded and installed, you will need to connect to > a server. Ours is irc.chat-solutions.org. The port you will need is > the default, 6667. Once you have a connection to the server, you need > to join the SIG chat channel, which is #arg_sig (including the pound > sign, it's important). > > You may also use the Unfiction applet here: http://www.unfiction.com/chat/ > Just make sure to input #arg_sig into the channel field, plus your name & > etc. > > If you've never used IRC before and you're a little worried, I'd > encourage you to try it out ahead of time, it won't hurt anything. :) > And feel free to email me if you're having trouble getting everything > all set up. > > -- > Andrea Phillips > http://www.deusexmachinatio.com > Words * Culture * Interaction > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > -- -- -- A.j Marie /| From dflor71 at gmail.com Sun Aug 17 17:42:17 2008 From: dflor71 at gmail.com (David Flor) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2008 17:42:17 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Testing Message-ID: <50b4b0580808171442m1d1dd39ak1959634ebbe8505b@mail.gmail.com> Forgive me, but it seems that thie SIG mailing list doesn't think too kindly about email addresses hosted on GoDaddy servers; I've posted numerous times and my mails have gone in to ether. Anyway, hope this works. :) Tnx & Rgds... David Flor ( dflor at dlimedia.com ) Darklight Interactive ( http://www.dlimedia.com/ ) "Omne ignotum pro magnifico" From adrijackmarie at gmail.com Sun Aug 17 17:55:47 2008 From: adrijackmarie at gmail.com (Adrien Marie) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2008 14:55:47 -0700 Subject: [arg_discuss] Adrien Marie souhaite chatter Message-ID: <111e86d20808171455n1078018dk@mail.gmail.com> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Adrien Marie souhaite rester en contact avec vous et communiquer plus facilement gr?ce aux tout derniers produits propos?s par Google. Si vous poss?dez d?j? un compte Gmail ou un compte Google Talk, consultez la page suivante : http://mail.google.com/mail/b-8910499087-d70f4849dd-b9d51707370d0266 Cliquez sur ce lien pour discuter avec Adrien Marie. Pour obtenir un compte de messagerie Gmail gratuit avec plus de 2 800 Mo d'espace de stockage et chatter avec Adrien Marie, consultez la page suivante : http://mail.google.com/mail/a-8910499087-d70f4849dd-fa02f8acb3 Gmail propose : - un service de messagerie instantan?e directement accessible depuis l'interface Gmail. - de puissantes fonctionnalit?s de protection contre les spams. - un outil int?gr? de recherche de messages et la possibilit? de regrouper les e-mails sous forme de "conversations". - ni fen?tre pop-up ni banni?re publicitaire. Seules des annonces textuelles et des informations en rapport avec le texte de vos messages vous sont pr?sent?es. Le tout gratuitement. Et ce n'est pas tout. En ouvrant un compte Gmail, vous avez ?galement acc?s ? Google Talk, le service de messagerie instantan? de Google : http://www.google.com/talk/intl/fr/ Google Talk propose : - un service de discussion sur le Web que vous pouvez utiliser n'importe o? sans aucun t?l?chargement - une liste de contacts synchronis?e avec votre compte Gmail - une fonction gratuite d'appels vocaux de PC ? PC en t?l?chargeant le client Google Talk Les services Gmail et Google Talk sont actuellement en phase de test b?ta. Nous travaillons activement ? l'am?lioration de ces services et ? l'int?gration de nouvelles fonctionnalit?s. Dans le cadre de ce processus, il est possible que nous vous contactions pour vous demander vos impressions et vos ?ventuelles suggestions. Nous vous remercions par avance de votre participation. Vos commentaires nous aident ? am?liorer nos produits et ? les rendre plus performants. Merci, L'?quipe Google Pour plus d'informations sur Gmail et Google Talk, consultez les pages suivantes : http://mail.google.com/mail/help/intl/fr/about.html http://www.google.com/talk/intl/fr/about.html Si les URL de ce message ne fonctionnent pas, copiez-les et collez-les ensuite dans la barre d'adresses de votre navigateur. From wendeth at wendydespain.com Mon Aug 18 13:49:50 2008 From: wendeth at wendydespain.com (Wendy Despain) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 10:49:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [arg_discuss] IRC Chat Today! In-Reply-To: <111e86d20808171415y2faf624bhf13059f43dbba0d8@mail.gmail.com> References: <5c799fd60808170627x2c931123ia7ac5c58f6aadb95@mail.gmail.com> <111e86d20808171415y2faf624bhf13059f43dbba0d8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <64743.69.144.84.128.1219081790.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> How did the chat go? Is there a transcript? Wendy Despain quantumcontent.com From andrhia at gmail.com Mon Aug 18 14:16:38 2008 From: andrhia at gmail.com (Andrea Phillips) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 14:16:38 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Aug. 18 SIG IRC Chat Transcript Message-ID: <5c799fd60808181116i799872b0o6b6057d6be5d5775@mail.gmail.com> We had a nice turnout, and the transcript follows. For those of you without the fortitude to read through it, I'm going to be sending out a little flurry of posts with action items over the next hour or two. ************* [6:00pm] Andrhia: OK! [6:00pm] Andrhia: Let's get this party started, then! [6:00pm] Andrhia: Welcome one and all to our intermittently periodic IGDA ARG SIG IRC Chat! [6:01pm] Andrhia: I'm your hostess, Andrea Phillips; our beloved leader Adam Martin will very likely not be joining us today. [6:01pm] Andrhia: He does, however, send his regrets. [6:01pm] Andrhia: First, let's all go round a circle and introduce ourselves, so we can match up IRC nicks with names and accomplishments... [6:02pm] adrien: i m adrien [6:02pm] _varin: hehe [6:02pm] Jas0n|AporiaCME: :) [6:02pm] catherwash: alphabetically? [6:02pm] catherwash is now known as catherwood. [6:02pm] Andrhia: I'm, as I said, Andrea Phillips; I do freelance writing and game design for ARGs. Formerly of Mind Candy and Perplex City, and even before that from Cloudmakers. [6:02pm] Andrhia: I think we can all go at once and it'll be fine ^_^ [6:03pm] JohnEvans: Egad, chaos! [6:03pm] Andrhia: *yes* [6:03pm] Nighthawk|DFlor: Wouldn't have it any other way... [6:03pm] Baroblik: I'm Genevi?ve from Montreal. I did The Rivard Project and few other ARG in Quebec. [6:03pm] AgentLex|Uhmmm: Okay, I'm Lex, and I'm a gatecrasher. I mena, I'm currently running Alpha Agency, which somehow people thought had a good trailhead. I'm kinda experimenting with wht I call a "net curtain" blogging as I PM [6:03pm] macmonkey joined the chat room. [6:03pm] adam joined the chat room. [6:03pm] catherwood: well i'm catherwood everywhere, but you'd know me from Unfiction forums, as i do not post to the SIG mailing list -- i'm a player and i like meta discussions, but i'll never be a PM [6:03pm] Jas0n|AporiaCME: I'm Jason Chrest, Aporia Cross-Media Entertainment, I've worked on Ny Takma and the current Aporia Agathon Project... long time on the Sig list first time in the sig chat :) [6:04pm] labfly joined the chat room. [6:04pm] Jas0n|AporiaCME: (mac, adam, jan - we're doing introductions - just blurting them out) [6:04pm] _varin: I'm Michelle Senderhauf. I've as a freelancer on several projects including World Without Oil, Catching the Wish and Monster Hunter Club [6:05pm] _varin: gah, I've *worked* [6:05pm] adrianhon: I'm Adrian Hon, lead designer and co-founder of Six to Start. Our latest projects have been We Tell Stories, Liberty News (UK only, alas) and Young Bond: The Shadow War. Back at Mind Candy, I was lead designer of Perplex City. [6:05pm] Nighthawk|DFlor: David Flor, a.k.a. "Nighthawk", software developer and President of Darklight Interactive. Did Looking Glass Labs in the past, and am now struggling through my game called "BoL/SiD". Also creator of the "Brain Clouds" blogging software. [6:05pm] Jas0n|AporiaCME: (and evil inquisitor!) [6:05pm] jlr1001: I'm J.L. Reid, a freelance writer and marketing guy from Raleigh NC. Mostly I've been a player/lurker, but I'm interested in stepping behind the curtain... soon... [6:05pm] JohnEvans: I'm John Evans, known for administrating Argology.org, rambling on the ARG SIG ML and working on various small indie-type projects. [6:06pm] adrianhon: (I'm also running the 'Let's Change the Game' charity ARG project, and the winning team is releasing their 'Sleeper Cell' game very soon!) [6:06pm] labfly: hey i am jan libby i created both sammeeeeees projects and worked w lonelygirl15 [6:06pm] Nighthawk|DFlor: (I hope somebody's gonna keep a log of this... right?) [6:06pm] Andrhia: Yes, logs [6:06pm] ? catherwood automatically logs [6:06pm] Jas0n|AporiaCME: samee [6:06pm] Jas0n|AporiaCME: (er same) [6:06pm] TikiMike: I'm Mike Monello, partner in Campfire, have been involved with True Blood, Art of the Heist, Beta-7, Blair Witch, and a host of other cross media projects. [6:06pm] adrien: where did i already see this "lonelygirl15" pseudo ? [6:07pm] macmonkey: I'm Marc McGinley, just graduated in multimedia technology and design where I did a grassroots ARG for my dissertation. Currently working on bigger things :) [6:07pm] Andrhia: You're due to explain the Tiki thing, Mike... [6:07pm] Andrhia: You can't leave your Twitterpeeps hanging like that! [6:07pm] ][mez][: i'm mez breeze, ARG theorist + complier of the augmentology.com site. [6:07pm] naomialderman joined the chat room. [6:07pm] Baroblik: ( like Nighthawk suggest - will we get access to the log after this chat ?) [6:08pm] adam: Adam Martin, used to work with Adrian, Andrea, et al @ mindcandy. [6:08pm] TikiMike: hahaha, it's a bit of an obsession. I'm transforming a conference room at the office into a polynesian paradise. You'll have to drop by and check it out [6:08pm] Andrhia: I typically post the log to the mailing list a bit afterward [6:08pm] Andrhia: Ahhh, OK :) [6:08pm] Nighthawk|DFlor: I have to ask: how long has this list been around? [6:08pm] Gupfzz is now known as Gupfee. [6:08pm] Andrhia: The list has been around for a couple of years... [6:08pm] Nighthawk|DFlor: ... Secret cabal then. I get it. Go on... [6:09pm] Andrhia: Trying way hard not to be secret! [6:09pm] adam: started december 2005 / jan 2006 [6:09pm] adrien: git [6:09pm] Andrhia: We still need intros from Dan, Naomi, Gupfee, lurker? [6:09pm] adrien: gut [6:09pm] catherwood: yep, the web archives go back that far (if anyone wants to read archives) http://five.pairlist.net/pipermail/arg_discuss/ [6:10pm] naomialderman: hello, sorry I'm late [6:10pm] Andrhia: And ygramul, who is idle? [6:10pm] adrien: no but thanks [6:10pm] Andrhia: We're just introducing ourselves yet [6:10pm] Gupfee: Hi, I'm otherwise known as Marie Lamb, worked on some grassroots games and World Without Oil, currently available for any opportunities ;) [6:11pm] Andrhia: Hmm. As further intros may or may not trickle in, I have just a couple of official orders of business. [6:11pm] lurker left the chat room. (Quit: http://unfiction.com/chat/) [6:11pm] Andrhia: The first one is this: http://www.argology.org/arg-developers/ [6:11pm] naomialderman: I'm Naomi, I used to be lead writer on Perplex City, may she rest in peace, and wrote an ARG for wetellstories.co.uk at the start of this year. I write other things too. [6:11pm] danhon: Hello, I'm Dan Hon, CEO and co-founder of Six to Start, ex of Cloudmakers and Mind Candy, now working on the stuff Adrian already talked about. [6:11pm] daveszulborski joined the chat room. [6:11pm] Andrhia: If you are a studio or a freelancer and you are not on this list, but you would LIKE to be, please do email the address at the bottom of the page [6:11pm] Andrhia: Again, that URL: [6:11pm] Andrhia: http://www.argology.org/arg-developers/ [6:12pm] Andrhia: Trying to make it nice and authoritative. [6:12pm] Sam_3 joined the chat room. [6:12pm] Andrhia: Welcome, new joiners, we're still going round and introducing ourselves :) [6:12pm] Nighthawk|DFlor: I found that whining on your blog about not being on that list works, too... ;) [6:13pm] daveszulborski558 joined the chat room. [6:13pm] AgentLex|Uhmmm: heheh [6:13pm] Jas0n|AporiaCME: welcome again Dave :P [6:13pm] Andrhia: Yes, that does in fact work [6:13pm] Sam_3: Hi, took me a while to finally get in! [6:13pm] Nighthawk|DFlor: Hi Dave and Dave's evil twin! [6:13pm] daveszulborski558: hello [6:13pm] daveszulborski558: not sure why there are two of me ;) [6:13pm] Baroblik: Thanks for the link Andrhia - I would love to be on this list. [6:13pm] Andrhia: We don't have many formal things to talk about tonight [6:14pm] Andrhia: A little self-congratulation all around for lanching ARGolog [6:14pm] Andrhia: y [6:14pm] AgentLex|Uhmmm: Now I need to come up with a "studio" name? heh [6:14pm] AgentLex|Uhmmm: Woo argology [6:14pm] Andrhia: I think we'd do well to link to the panel videos on ARGN from there [6:14pm] Andrhia: But in all, well done, and we should try to keep the site growing and updating :) [6:15pm] Andrhia: In the interests or promoting ARGology, I've brought up ordering ARGology Moo cards [6:15pm] adrien: i m celebrating with excellent cheese mixed with honey.... [6:15pm] Andrhia: And then distributing them to SIG members, who could hand them out to people asking for more information about ARGs as required [6:15pm] adrien: :D [6:15pm] ][mez][: sounds fab. [6:15pm] Baroblik: :) [6:16pm] Nighthawk|DFlor: Who would I distribute to? I ain't got anyone within five hundred miles of here. [6:16pm] Jas0n|AporiaCME is now known as Jas0n. [6:16pm] Andrhia: I'm thinking that if we were to order, say, a thousand cards, then we could send 20 cards each to 50 SIG members? Or 50 cards each to 20 SIG members... [6:16pm] Andrhia: Well then, you don't need to have them ^_^ [6:16pm] adrien: exhilarating is the word [6:16pm] Andrhia: It would be on a volunteer basis to people who think they'd get a lot of use out of them [6:17pm] Andrhia: I'm not sure how to size up the order, though; we need to know how many people are actually interested in having them [6:17pm] adrien: i personnaly have ordererd moo cards [6:17pm] adrien: i can tell u that it s spending fast [6:17pm] Andrhia: And how many those people think they'd be able to use over, say, a year [6:18pm] adrien: would be better i think 50/20 [6:18pm] Andrhia: Can anyone think of a way to guesstimate this, or a way to force people to participate in a poll? [6:18pm] Jas0n: there are electronic versions of moo cards correct? [6:18pm] adrien: electronic ones ? [6:18pm] Andrhia: I mean, we can order 500 cards, or 2000; the trick is in working out how many we really do want to get. [6:18pm] adrien: how come ? [6:18pm] adam: we could also take a stack to conferences and give them away in hcunks fo 100 (or whatever) to anyeone who was present [6:18pm] naomialderman: perhaps send a message out to the list to ask people if they want some? [6:18pm] macmonkey: why don't we just order a small amount and see how it goes? [6:18pm] macmonkey: ;) [6:18pm] Jas0n: most of the people I communicate with on ARGs is done over the computer via e-mail, skype, and cell [6:18pm] adrien: members can financially participate tough [6:19pm] Andrhia: The SIG is entitled to a small amount of money from the IGDA [6:19pm] Andrhia: We I'd want to put in a grant request to use that money; and the more we order, the beter a volume discount we can get from Moo [6:19pm] Andrhia: Naomi: I did such a hting and got close to no response... [6:19pm] naomialderman: personally I'd probably just write "argology.org" on my personal cards when I give them out [6:20pm] jlr1001: How much money is the SIG entitled to? [6:20pm] adrien: ok then maybe will i renew my membership which expires soon [6:20pm] Andrhia: I'm not sure how much exactly, but it's not very much [6:20pm] Andrhia: The ARGology thing would probably about kick it :) [6:20pm] ][mez][: could we make an online evrsion? widgets? soem type of organised sig file? soc net thing? [6:20pm] jlr1001: And what other plans would require some of that money? [6:20pm] ][mez][: version, even [6:20pm] Andrhia: We don't have much in the way of money-spending plans at the moment [6:20pm] adrien: we re trying to put things forward too here in france [6:20pm] adam: also, we can make the designs avaialble for *anyone* to order their own moo cards using those designs [6:21pm] jlr1001: agree with adam... that might make the most sense. [6:21pm] Baroblik: I like adam's idea [6:21pm] adrien: i ve tried it but without success, perhaps 'cause of the pict.format [6:22pm] adam: you can setup moo orders from sources appropriately so that it works, I've worked with other people who've done it before. [6:22pm] adrien: *to design my own card* [6:22pm] adam: I think easiest is just to put things on flickr :) [6:22pm] adrien: *with the argology logo* [6:23pm] Andrhia: ...so is the Moo idea just not popular then? [6:23pm] Nighthawk|DFlor: Sorry, was away for a sec. [6:23pm] adam: I think the "bulk order, paid for by IGDA" would be good for the handful of peopel who naturally do a lot of conferences etc [6:23pm] Andrhia: The feeling seems to be 'waste of time and money' [6:23pm] adam: ? [6:24pm] adam: NB: we have money to spend. We shouldn't spend it frivolously, but if we don't spend it, it does us no good at all :). And we don't have much, but we do have somehwere in the region of hundreds of dollars a year [6:24pm] naomialderman: do the moderators think they'd use them? [6:24pm] labfly left the chat room. (Quit: http://unfiction.com/chat/) [6:24pm] adam: PLUS we can apply for "one-off" requests for up to thousands of dollars a year from a general pot, if we have good justification [6:24pm] adam: (just fyi) [6:24pm] adrien: Jas0n:electronic versions ? *rfid*? [6:25pm] ? Jas0n doesn't know :P [6:25pm] Andrhia: I could use a handful a year; I suspect people like Adam and Christy could use a lot more [6:25pm] adrien: well moo cards definitly is a good idea [6:25pm] adam: I would hand out in the region of 50-100 a year I think. Around 10-20 per conference [6:25pm] Nighthawk|DFlor: I missed a lot it seems. If you want something electronic or digital, I can easily arrange it. [6:25pm] labfly joined the chat room. [6:25pm] adrien: most important is to give to good peoples in good places [6:26pm] JohnEvans: Electronic is easy, and probably useful, but a physical card would have a certain presence. [6:26pm] _varin: agreed [6:26pm] labfly: i agree - i go to plenty of meetings where i could hand them out [6:26pm] adrianhon: ditto [6:26pm] adam: re-order times with moo cards are very short, so I'd be interested to try it with a smallish order size and see what happens [6:26pm] Baroblik: same here [6:27pm] Nighthawk|DFlor: You got a link for these "moo cards"? [6:27pm] _varin: I wouldn't need any myself though, as most of you are at any meeting I would attend ;) [6:27pm] Andrhia: OK [6:27pm] jlr1001: www.moo.com [6:27pm] Sam_3: I love physical cards! [6:27pm] Andrhia: So call it 200 mini-cards for a first order? [6:27pm] ? Nighthawk|DFlor facepalms [6:27pm] Nighthawk|DFlor: Duh [6:27pm] Gupfee: I'd like one for my own little swag shrine :) but the only place I'd see myself handing them out would be ARGFest [6:27pm] JohnEvans: they're like business cards but smaller and cuter. ;) [6:27pm] Andrhia: *so cute* [6:27pm] adam: http://www.moo.com/products/minicards.php [6:27pm] TikiMike: I love physical cards, but I would rather followup a meeting with an email and a link to the site than hand out a separate card to someone [6:28pm] AgentLex|Uhmmm: Same, Gup. I think that there's 2 groups of us, those whose profession is ARGs, and those whose hobby is ARGs. Professionals will need the cards :) [6:28pm] Nighthawk|DFlor: Do we have a logo or creative for the cards themselves? [6:29pm] Nighthawk|DFlor: ...and how about those of us that WANT to be professional? :) [6:29pm] adam: NB: it costs no more or less to have every single card printed differently [6:29pm] adrien: JohnEvans: u could now integrate electronic within papersee http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio-frequency_identification [6:29pm] Andrhia: Tiki: I feel like I need to make a clean distinction between representing myself and representing the SIG, but that doesn't apply to everybody ^_^ [6:29pm] adam: so I'd assumed we'd come up with a family of designs [6:29pm] adrien: i ve seen doing with visit cards [6:29pm] Andrhia: And we do have an ARGology logo, see: Upper left at ARGology.org [6:30pm] adrien: why is upper left ? [6:30pm] adrien: :s [6:30pm] Andrhia: Because this is where it is on the page? [6:30pm] adam: re: 200 cards ... howabout 20 cards for everyone who thinks they'll hand them out at conferences etc. That will probably be in the region of 10-20 people, I guess? [6:30pm] adrien: 50/20 [6:30pm] jlr1001: (having to step away for a few...) [6:30pm] labfly: i'm off to a sunday olympics theme party - nk - :) goo moo cards i will check out the log later bye, everybody! [6:30pm] Andrhia: Sounds fine to me... [6:31pm] adam: (i.e. yes, 200 sounds fine, unless there's a lot more people who feel they'd have opportunities to hand them around :)) [6:31pm] Jas0n: later Jan :) [6:31pm] AgentLex|Uhmmm: See ya Jan [6:31pm] adrien: plus : which contact would be on these cards? [6:31pm] labfly left the chat room. (Quit: http://unfiction.com/chat/) [6:31pm] adrien: should it mentionned a local contact or the mothership ? [6:31pm] Andrhia: It would just be the site [6:32pm] Andrhia: And maybe the admin email, but probably just the URL [6:32pm] adrien: yes but [6:32pm] adrien: okay [6:32pm] Baroblik: Since the homebase is the argology.com ... that would be the best [6:32pm] adam: mailing list signup URL? :) (we could make an easier URL on argology that redirects?) [6:33pm] adam: (since the mailng list seems to consistently be the main centre of communication at the moment) [6:33pm] adrien: i assume the giver will do the rest [6:33pm] Andrhia: Hm, maybe [6:33pm] catherwood: not everyone you're handing these to belong on the discussion/mailing list [6:34pm] Andrhia: No, hopefully none of them would [6:34pm] Andrhia: It would be a recruiting tool [6:34pm] Andrhia: Among other things [6:34pm] adam: hmm... you know, we CAN have a unique contact printed on each card as well. [6:35pm] Andrhia: This makes distributing them troublesome [6:35pm] Baroblik: need a little phrase - punch line on the top of the url + email explaning exactly what we are handing this little card for ... [6:35pm] Andrhia: Because then we have to know in advance how many people get how many cards, and can't repurpose them at conferences [6:35pm] Andrhia: The idea is not for these to be personal cards. [6:35pm] adam: sorry, to be clear: I was suggesting that the cards hve ARGOLOGY on the back, plus URL, plus tagline, and then instead of a contact email address, have a singup email / URL to the mailing list. [6:36pm] adam: yep. [6:36pm] Baroblik: Join the force - www.argology.com [6:36pm] AgentLex|Uhmmm: Is there enough room on a minicard for all that? [6:36pm] Andrhia: .org [6:36pm] Andrhia: .com is not ours [6:36pm] adrien: i should recommend the argology.com (or was it .org?) to mark eyles [6:36pm] Baroblik: sorry ... i was to quick [6:36pm] ][mez][: we could try a more cryptic apporach...with just the webiste on it. seems fitting somehow. [6:36pm] adam: 6 lines of text on back is standard, although often you leave some lines blank to make the formmating loook nicer (effectively making paragraph breaks) [6:36pm] catherwood: adam, that's why i asked who these are for and why you'd send them to the mailing list? [6:37pm] Nighthawk|DFlor: ..in ROT-13... ;) [6:37pm] Andrhia: We'd send them to people on the mailing list to pass out to people who are NOT on the mailing list yet [6:37pm] Andrhia: People who don't know much about ARGs but would like to learn more. [6:38pm] catherwood: but not potential clients, i guess? [6:38pm] Jas0n: I was thinking they'd be for people who are potential clients who are seeking more information about the genre -- and/or other people in the entertainment industry who seem interested in learning more about the genre [6:38pm] Andrhia: Sure, potential clients [6:38pm] adam: catherwood: ah, I see. I'm assuming they're for everyone/anyone. Thinking about it more, I think putting contact details for any individuals on the back is a bad idea :). The purpose is to promote the site, not any person [6:38pm] jlr1001: But would/should everyone end up on the mailing list? [6:38pm] adrien: u are all very sweet, i now am goin to sleep [6:38pm] Jas0n: g'night adrien [6:38pm] adrien: good night everyone [6:39pm] adrien: see "ya [6:39pm] AgentLex|Uhmmm: Night adrien [6:39pm] _varin: good night [6:39pm] Andrhia: Potential clients was actually one of the original use cases, so to speak [6:39pm] Nighthawk|DFlor: I imagined it was late over there. G'night. [6:39pm] adrien: all the best pal' [6:39pm] Omega joined the chat room. [6:39pm] AgentLex|Uhmmm: Ohcrap, it's Omega [6:39pm] Andrhia: Or people who have approached you asking you to put together an ARG proposal, but maybe don't know what they're getting into [6:39pm] adrien: :) [6:39pm] adrien left the chat room. [6:40pm] Andrhia: Or people who have started to make cross-media projects that just might be ARGs, who might love to know about our community [6:41pm] adam: jlr1001: the mailnig list seems to be a good place for people to end up who are intersted in all the things that ARGology is explaining, showing, promoting, etc [6:41pm] Baroblik: Or people saying they are ARG developpers but haven't played one or create one yet ;) Sorry ... It happened to me a lot lately. [6:41pm] Jas0n: lol [6:41pm] Andrhia: Baroblik: Hah, I suppose that isn't surprising. :) [6:41pm] Jas0n: io9 ;) [6:42pm] Baroblik: Not surprising, but not really that fun something :) [6:42pm] ][mez][: so we're kinda pre-supposing any potential card-recipients have a priori info re ARGs, whcih is y i'd pitch a more cryptic approach. tho maybe that could be for a separate proj? [6:42pm] adam: does anyone have ideas for individual designs to put on the picture side? [6:42pm] Andrhia: We of course have the ARGology logo [6:42pm] Andrhia: Could we use the IGDA logo as well? [6:43pm] adam: ah ... mixing with mez's comment: we could have some cryptic interesting stuff on some of the picture sides? [6:43pm] Baroblik: Numbers ... Letters ... All sorts of codes [6:43pm] naomialderman: [I have a completely off-the-point question. Should the argology site contain a mini-ARG?] [6:43pm] ][mez][: oo me likey [6:43pm] Andrhia: I am against this plan, frankly [6:44pm] Andrhia: The Writer's SIG does not need to be in narrative form, for example; the Casual Games SIG does not need its own Flash game gallery [6:44pm] catherwood: don't create barriers for people honestly looking for information, but if it's in a side directory or "samples" section, maybe [6:44pm] Andrhia: We're trying to make the information easily accessible and obvious [6:44pm] AgentLex|Uhmmm: I'm with Andrea on that one. ARGology is more of a resource - though an "example of an ARG" article might be useful [6:44pm] adam: well ... but the writers sig does write books [6:44pm] Andrhia: If we could hit them over the head with a hammer, I'd be done with that [6:44pm] ][mez][: naomi>> i thought about that wehn argology 1st went live, but decided it may add confusion 2 a site really that presents itself as straight info-directed, not open enuff 2 incorporate a cross-media approach? [6:44pm] Andrhia: er, down [6:44pm] ? Jas0n agrees with Andrea and Cather [6:44pm] Nighthawk|DFlor: We have a few examples already, no? [6:45pm] Andrhia: And frankly, I think that the 'well, who gets to design the official ARGology Cunning Thing' would introduce a competitive element I would rather not see. [6:45pm] Andrhia: We do have some sample ARGs, yes [6:45pm] Andrhia: They're linked from the main SIG page [6:45pm] ][mez][: a spin-off/applied eg would work well, but it would have to be transparent in execution [6:45pm] TikiMike: totally agree -- the more cryptic argology becomes the less useful as a resource [6:45pm] ? catherwood should probably look at the site for real sometime [6:45pm] Baroblik: In the design of a small card like this, I think that less is more ... [6:46pm] adam: howabout using a couple of card designs as examples of common ARG techniques, each linking back to the argology site? (and at this point I have a sense of deja vu, talkig about ways of getting physical cards to link to a website for an ARG...) [6:46pm] Andrhia: Hah. [6:46pm] AgentLex|Uhmmm: Picture side rot-13, reverse site a regular link - again, we want the information to be accessible? [6:46pm] Nighthawk|DFlor: I made my slogan in to a puzzle on my business card. [6:46pm] ][mez][: i don't see the moocard having minimal info as confusing, however. just not keent o embed an active ARG in the website. [6:46pm] adam: yes, exactly [6:47pm] Andrhia: Yeah, I'd just as rather not [6:47pm] Gupfee: just be careful not to give the impression that's it's all about puzzles and cryptography [6:47pm] Nighthawk|DFlor: Don't get me wrong: I'm not suggesting that either. Cards should be to the point and not cryptic or mysterious. [6:47pm] Andrhia: Then it becomes an expression of a particular flavor of ARG [6:47pm] Baroblik: I agree [6:47pm] _varin: me too [6:48pm] Andrhia: Still, we don't have anything to put on the backs as images. [6:48pm] adam: well, yes. But, eventually, if we are always completely even-handed then our ability to do anything interesting becomes vanishingly small [6:48pm] ][mez][: even just somethign as simple as a simple by-line encapsulating cross-media/ARGs...something snappy... [6:48pm] Andrhia: Could we put together a Flickr gallery of screen shots, video stills, other photos from ARGs we have known and loved? [6:48pm] Andrhia: And use those? [6:49pm] TikiMike: I would argue that the cards be very straight forward, have no puzzles or anything funky about them -- straight info [6:49pm] adam: I am not a lover of cryptology in args, it bores me, but its something simple and visual (and easy) to stick on the picture side of a card, and it's on-topic [6:49pm] Andrhia: I'm assuming some of us here have the authority to clear such material for use [6:49pm] _varin: What about just putting the logo on teh picture side? Too boring? [6:49pm] ][mez][: great idea re shot compilation andr, + perhaps invite memebrs to remix/mash/work em? [6:49pm] Andrhia: Well, logo on the front, other picture on the back :) [6:49pm] Gupfee: agree w/ TikiMike--the creativity can come from the images and the tag lines used, not needing any puzzly bits [6:49pm] Andrhia: Actually, this was originally Adam's idea and not mine ^_^ [6:49pm] Baroblik: Like the idea of the flickr gallery, so every one could contribute - and we could pick a top ten - patterns, colors or images [6:50pm] TikiMike: when I have to pitch a project to a client I often use an inverse rule -- the more outrageous and experimental the campaign, the more I use traditional language and formats to pitch it [6:50pm] ][mez][: sounds workable baro [6:50pm] adam: varin: moo cards tend to work very well with "intersting" images on, because of the strange form-factor. They don't tend to work well with plain logos. [6:50pm] catherwood: pictures of players at events -- but then don't you need releases or permission to use their images? [6:50pm] _varin: You can put pics on both sides? Are these the minicards we're talking about? [6:50pm] Andrhia: Yes, the minicards [6:50pm] Nighthawk|DFlor: I'd love one with my "digital rabbit" on it. :) [6:50pm] adam: varin: you get room for a SMALL pic on one side, the whole of the other side is a pic [6:51pm] _varin: okay, that's what I made for myself :) [6:51pm] ][mez][: i wouldn't go for real-time photos, more logo based would work better i suspect [6:51pm] Andrhia: Logos would muddy the message [6:51pm] Andrhia: Of who exactly is behind ARGology [6:51pm] adam: so ... howabout making a flickr photostream that anyone can submit to, and they warrant that they have the rights to their images? Pictures of people just need to not be identifiable, but IIRC flickr has guideliens already on what you're allowed to do with iamges you take (no?) [6:51pm] ][mez][: i heard moocards r very expensive. is there a way we coudl explore getting a reg printer to make em instead? cut back on costs? [6:52pm] adam: moo cards are generally cheap [6:52pm] Jas0n: an image of a book, a computer monitor, a phone, an envelope, and a person at a desk [6:52pm] Andrhia: Moo cards for the quality arne't very expensive at all [6:52pm] Baroblik: details of everybody in ARGology ... a close up of a nose, an hand, a finger, a lip, an ear, an eye ... but from everyone on our list ;) [6:52pm] ][mez][: ok adam, my source must have been incorrect *naughty source!*;) [6:52pm] Nighthawk|DFlor: I have a shutterstock subscription if need be; so long as it's not an "editorial" image it's fair game, no? [6:52pm] adam: I have never found a reliable business card printer as cheap as moo (I've used a lot), unless you go for limited colour palettes [6:52pm] Andrhia: Maybe we can start a Flickr pool and then do polling about which images to use [6:53pm] adam: +1 for flickr pool [6:53pm] Andrhia: Again, the theme of "ARG-like" [6:53pm] ][mez][: +2 [6:53pm] Baroblik: +3 [6:53pm] Nighthawk|DFlor: (n+1) [6:53pm] ][mez][: lol:) [6:53pm] Andrhia: Going once.... going twice... and SOLD! [6:53pm] Baroblik: :) [6:53pm] Andrhia: Whew [6:53pm] Andrhia: An hour talking about Moo cards, who knew? [6:53pm] ? adam would be interested to see what appears :) [6:53pm] ][mez][: indeed, who did? [6:54pm] Andrhia: OK [6:54pm] Nighthawk|DFlor: I'm sure I'll be the first to violate site Terms of Service. I always am. :) [6:54pm] adam: lol [6:54pm] Andrhia: Next order of business: We have a lovely turnout here tonight, but in the interests of fairness, I'm looking at making the next chat durign the day on a weekday [6:55pm] Jas0n: Wed-Fri would be good :P [6:55pm] adam: midnight. I must go. Before I turn into a pumpkin. Night, all. [6:55pm] Nighthawk|DFlor: Considering we have people in the US, Europe and Australia, maybe rotate the time so that everyone's miserable at least once? [6:55pm] AgentLex|Uhmmm: See ya adam [6:55pm] Andrhia: I proposed: 8am PST/ 11am EST/ 4pm BST/ 1am in Sydney [6:55pm] Baroblik: see ya adam [6:55pm] adam left the chat room. [6:56pm] Andrhia: Poor Australia always gets the shaft [6:56pm] Jas0n: That's what they get for being a day ahead :P [6:56pm] Andrhia: Let's call it for Sept. 18, a Thursday [6:56pm] andre joined the chat room. [6:56pm] Andrhia: What do we think? [6:56pm] Jas0n: sounds good [6:56pm] Baroblik: I've been puppetmastering Rivard Project for 6 weeks with people from everywhere in the globe, I can suffer as much as you want and be miserable for others .. It's fine with me :) [6:56pm] Nighthawk|DFlor: Sounds good [6:57pm] JohnEvans: Sounds okay. [6:57pm] Gupfee: once school starts, I'm good :) [6:57pm] _varin: I'm up for feeling miserable every once in a while [6:57pm] Andrhia: OK! [6:57pm] Andrhia: I'll email the list about it later tonight [6:57pm] Andrhia: And... that's all of the agenda I've got, folks [6:57pm] Andrhia: I turn it over to you to talk about the fun stuff, or ask me pesky administrative questions [6:58pm] Andrhia: Or, you know, whatever [6:58pm] Nighthawk|DFlor: Aw... so where's the super awesome trailhead I was expecting from this group? [6:58pm] Baroblik: the list and the flickr gallery address when it will be available ? [6:58pm] Andrhia: Knock yourselves out! [6:58pm] AgentLex|Uhmmm: Nighthawk: www.superawesometrailhead.com of course [6:58pm] Jas0n: Where's the guy in the banana hammock? [6:58pm] Andrhia: Baroblik: I'll try to set something up and email the list when it's up [6:58pm] Andrhia: I know, right? [6:58pm] Baroblik: Andrhia : Thanks ! [6:58pm] ? Jas0n goes and puts his speedo on [6:58pm] Andrhia: Hah! [6:59pm] Nighthawk|DFlor: I'm gonna run here. Apparently have a hurricane to prepare for... [6:59pm] andre: hey guys, Andre here from Brazil [6:59pm] _varin: ugh, good luck Nighthawk [6:59pm] AgentLex|Uhmmm: See ya Nighthawk [6:59pm] daveszulborski558: bye nighthawk [6:59pm] Nighthawk|DFlor left the chat room. (Quit: ) [7:00pm] andre is now known as Andre. [7:00pm] Baroblik: Hi Andre from Brazil ! [7:00pm] Jas0n: Welcome Andre [7:00pm] Andrhia: I'm ending the official transciption log... NOW From andrhia at gmail.com Mon Aug 18 14:28:15 2008 From: andrhia at gmail.com (Andrea Phillips) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 14:28:15 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Next SIG Chat: Sept. 18 Message-ID: <5c799fd60808181128p63b23210lb49e8e5c7d01328e@mail.gmail.com> In the chat last night, we schedule a time for another chat. This one is on a weekday, at a much different time of day: Thursday, Aug. 18 at 8am PST/ 11am EST/ 4pm BST/ 1am on Friday Sept. 19 in Sydney. Mark your calendars and start thinking about agenda items! Hopefully by varying the dates and times, we can get a wide degree of participation... -- Andrea Phillips http://www.deusexmachinatio.com Words * Culture * Interaction From andrhia at gmail.com Mon Aug 18 14:40:36 2008 From: andrhia at gmail.com (Andrea Phillips) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 14:40:36 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Weekly Informal IRC Chats Message-ID: <5c799fd60808181140h466af248g9eeb0cdab7ec7d39@mail.gmail.com> After the official SIG chat last night, which mainly dealt with Moo cards, a few people expressed disappointment that there wasn't time to just talk about stuff that's on our minds. While there is off-the-record time to just chat after the agenda items are done, this is a real, valid problem. So! I propose a rotating weekly chat on IRC (...or actually, Wendy has said she has a better platform, if she'll speak up?) This time would be good for the "Well, how do you price out your proposals?" and "How much are you charging for X?" and "Say, what's the best freemail provider for Y?" and "Which blogging platform has been the most secure?" and "My GOD did you see what io9 said this time?!" kinds of discussions that a lot of people want to have, but not so many people want to have recorded. We could time-shift this chat to start three hours later every time, to try to make it convenient for people around the globe. (Actually, there's no reason we can't keep a chat open all the time, and just remind people it's there every now and again. :) Not sure if weekdays or weekends work better for more people, though. I arbitrarily say that the first of these informal chats will begin Thursday Aug. 21, at noon Eastern US time. That's 9am/09:00 on the West Coast, 5pm/17:00 in Britain, and 2am/02:00 in Sydney. (Sorry, Christy...) If you miss it, there's another one next week... but these transcripts will NOT be posted to the list, to allow people a little more latitude in what they say. Pending a better idea than IRC for the chat, I'll post join instructions again on Wednesday sometime. -- Andrea Phillips http://www.deusexmachinatio.com Words * Culture * Interaction From wendeth at wendydespain.com Mon Aug 18 14:41:58 2008 From: wendeth at wendydespain.com (Wendy Despain) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 11:41:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [arg_discuss] Next SIG Chat: Sept. 18 In-Reply-To: <5c799fd60808181128p63b23210lb49e8e5c7d01328e@mail.gmail.com> References: <5c799fd60808181128p63b23210lb49e8e5c7d01328e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <64841.69.144.84.128.1219084918.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> I feel the need to point out that this is the day after Austin GDC and thus a travel day for me. Not sure how the timing will work out for me - and I don't know if anyone else is effected. Wendy Despain quantumcontent.com On Mon, August 18, 2008 11:28 am, Andrea Phillips wrote: > In the chat last night, we schedule a time for another chat. This one > is on a weekday, at a much different time of day: Thursday, Aug. 18 at > 8am PST/ 11am EST/ 4pm BST/ 1am on Friday Sept. 19 in Sydney. Mark > your calendars and start thinking about agenda items! > > Hopefully by varying the dates and times, we can get a wide degree of > participation... > > -- > Andrea Phillips > http://www.deusexmachinatio.com > Words * Culture * Interaction > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > Wendy Despain quantumcontent.com From andrhia at gmail.com Mon Aug 18 14:50:08 2008 From: andrhia at gmail.com (Andrea Phillips) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 14:50:08 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Moo Cards Decision & Flickr Pool Message-ID: <5c799fd60808181150k6fd4ca93oa9bcaaa28d018e2c@mail.gmail.com> The chat last night mostly focused on Moo cards, and the SIG ordering some to represent ARGology. This turned out to be a much more lively discussion than I might have guessed. :) The upshot is this: We're going to order 200 cards to send to people to pass out at conventions and suchlike, to see how the cards work out for us; if it seems successful, we'll look into placing a larger order. The cards will include the ARGology logo, URL, and information to join the SIG list on the front. On the back, we'll choose photos from a Flickr pool that I have just created, called argsigmoo. If you have the rights to some ARGolicious photos you'd like to see on the backs of the ARGology Moo cards, add 'em on into the pool! But please don't add photos that would put us in violation of copyright, law, or widespread standards of good taste. Thaaannnnnk you! -- Andrea Phillips http://www.deusexmachinatio.com Words * Culture * Interaction From andrhia at gmail.com Mon Aug 18 14:51:38 2008 From: andrhia at gmail.com (Andrea Phillips) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 14:51:38 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] CORRECTION: Next SIG Chat: Sept. 25 Message-ID: <5c799fd60808181151n26a88f1ck60425663d1ae1892@mail.gmail.com> It's uncanny how I do this, isn't it? In my defense, in a chatroom full to bursting with other SIG members, nobody said anything about the date. ^_^ OK, let's bump it a week later, to Thursday, Sept. 25, same bat time, same bat channel. On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 2:41 PM, Wendy Despain wrote: > I feel the need to point out that this is the day after Austin GDC and > thus a travel day for me. Not sure how the timing will work out for me > - and I don't know if anyone else is effected. > > Wendy Despain > quantumcontent.com > > > On Mon, August 18, 2008 11:28 am, Andrea Phillips wrote: >> In the chat last night, we schedule a time for another chat. This one >> is on a weekday, at a much different time of day: Thursday, Aug. 18 at >> 8am PST/ 11am EST/ 4pm BST/ 1am on Friday Sept. 19 in Sydney. Mark >> your calendars and start thinking about agenda items! >> >> Hopefully by varying the dates and times, we can get a wide degree of >> participation... >> >> -- >> Andrea Phillips >> http://www.deusexmachinatio.com >> Words * Culture * Interaction >> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >> > > > Wendy Despain > quantumcontent.com > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > -- Andrea Phillips http://www.deusexmachinatio.com Words * Culture * Interaction From wendeth at wendydespain.com Mon Aug 18 14:54:01 2008 From: wendeth at wendydespain.com (Wendy Despain) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 11:54:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [arg_discuss] Weekly Informal IRC Chats In-Reply-To: <5c799fd60808181140h466af248g9eeb0cdab7ec7d39@mail.gmail.com> References: <5c799fd60808181140h466af248g9eeb0cdab7ec7d39@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <64906.69.144.84.128.1219085641.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> One of the members of the Writing SIG set up this chat room: http://chat.zakelro.com/ The Writers use it on rare occasions, and would be happy to share. Wendy Despain quantumcontent.com On Mon, August 18, 2008 11:40 am, Andrea Phillips wrote: > After the official SIG chat last night, which mainly dealt with Moo > cards, a few people expressed disappointment that there wasn't time to > just talk about stuff that's on our minds. While there is > off-the-record time to just chat after the agenda items are done, this > is a real, valid problem. So! > > I propose a rotating weekly chat on IRC (...or actually, Wendy has > said she has a better platform, if she'll speak up?) This time would > be good for the "Well, how do you price out your proposals?" and "How > much are you charging for X?" and "Say, what's the best freemail > provider for Y?" and "Which blogging platform has been the most > secure?" and "My GOD did you see what io9 said this time?!" kinds of > discussions that a lot of people want to have, but not so many people > want to have recorded. > > We could time-shift this chat to start three hours later every time, > to try to make it convenient for people around the globe. (Actually, > there's no reason we can't keep a chat open all the time, and just > remind people it's there every now and again. :) Not sure if weekdays > or weekends work better for more people, though. > > I arbitrarily say that the first of these informal chats will begin > Thursday Aug. 21, at noon Eastern US time. That's 9am/09:00 on the > West Coast, 5pm/17:00 in Britain, and 2am/02:00 in Sydney. (Sorry, > Christy...) > > If you miss it, there's another one next week... but these transcripts > will NOT be posted to the list, to allow people a little more latitude > in what they say. > > Pending a better idea than IRC for the chat, I'll post join > instructions again on Wednesday sometime. > > -- > Andrea Phillips > http://www.deusexmachinatio.com > Words * Culture * Interaction > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > Wendy Despain quantumcontent.com From gupfee at gmail.com Mon Aug 18 17:13:11 2008 From: gupfee at gmail.com (Gupfee) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 17:13:11 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Weekly Informal IRC Chats In-Reply-To: <64906.69.144.84.128.1219085641.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> References: <5c799fd60808181140h466af248g9eeb0cdab7ec7d39@mail.gmail.com> <64906.69.144.84.128.1219085641.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> Message-ID: <2cbc13f50808181413n4cf68237p2a94ed2aa6c4ee56@mail.gmail.com> Why is this option better than IRC on chat-sol? Marie On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 2:54 PM, Wendy Despain wrote: > One of the members of the Writing SIG set up this chat room: > http://chat.zakelro.com/ > > The Writers use it on rare occasions, and would be happy to share. > > Wendy Despain > quantumcontent.com > > > On Mon, August 18, 2008 11:40 am, Andrea Phillips wrote: > > After the official SIG chat last night, which mainly dealt with Moo > > cards, a few people expressed disappointment that there wasn't time to > > just talk about stuff that's on our minds. While there is > > off-the-record time to just chat after the agenda items are done, this > > is a real, valid problem. So! > > > > I propose a rotating weekly chat on IRC (...or actually, Wendy has > > said she has a better platform, if she'll speak up?) This time would > > be good for the "Well, how do you price out your proposals?" and "How > > much are you charging for X?" and "Say, what's the best freemail > > provider for Y?" and "Which blogging platform has been the most > > secure?" and "My GOD did you see what io9 said this time?!" kinds of > > discussions that a lot of people want to have, but not so many people > > want to have recorded. > > > > We could time-shift this chat to start three hours later every time, > > to try to make it convenient for people around the globe. (Actually, > > there's no reason we can't keep a chat open all the time, and just > > remind people it's there every now and again. :) Not sure if weekdays > > or weekends work better for more people, though. > > > > I arbitrarily say that the first of these informal chats will begin > > Thursday Aug. 21, at noon Eastern US time. That's 9am/09:00 on the > > West Coast, 5pm/17:00 in Britain, and 2am/02:00 in Sydney. (Sorry, > > Christy...) > > > > If you miss it, there's another one next week... but these transcripts > > will NOT be posted to the list, to allow people a little more latitude > > in what they say. > > > > Pending a better idea than IRC for the chat, I'll post join > > instructions again on Wednesday sometime. > > > > -- > > Andrea Phillips > > http://www.deusexmachinatio.com > > Words * Culture * Interaction > > _______________________________________________ > > ARG_Discuss mailing list > > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > > > > Wendy Despain > quantumcontent.com > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > From adrijackmarie at gmail.com Mon Aug 18 17:15:23 2008 From: adrijackmarie at gmail.com (Adrien MARIE) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 23:15:23 +0200 Subject: [arg_discuss] Weekly Informal IRC Chats In-Reply-To: <2cbc13f50808181413n4cf68237p2a94ed2aa6c4ee56@mail.gmail.com> References: <5c799fd60808181140h466af248g9eeb0cdab7ec7d39@mail.gmail.com> <64906.69.144.84.128.1219085641.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> <2cbc13f50808181413n4cf68237p2a94ed2aa6c4ee56@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2F5587CD-EB96-4FAA-81A1-8B83D83CC933@gmail.com> hi all, what about the moo cards ? does finally had someone decided anything ? Adrien On 18 Aug 2008, at 11:13, Gupfee wrote: > Why is this option better than IRC on chat-sol? > > Marie > > On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 2:54 PM, Wendy Despain >wrote: > >> One of the members of the Writing SIG set up this chat room: >> http://chat.zakelro.com/ >> >> The Writers use it on rare occasions, and would be happy to share. >> >> Wendy Despain >> quantumcontent.com >> >> >> On Mon, August 18, 2008 11:40 am, Andrea Phillips wrote: >>> After the official SIG chat last night, which mainly dealt with Moo >>> cards, a few people expressed disappointment that there wasn't >>> time to >>> just talk about stuff that's on our minds. While there is >>> off-the-record time to just chat after the agenda items are done, >>> this >>> is a real, valid problem. So! >>> >>> I propose a rotating weekly chat on IRC (...or actually, Wendy has >>> said she has a better platform, if she'll speak up?) This time would >>> be good for the "Well, how do you price out your proposals?" and >>> "How >>> much are you charging for X?" and "Say, what's the best freemail >>> provider for Y?" and "Which blogging platform has been the most >>> secure?" and "My GOD did you see what io9 said this time?!" kinds of >>> discussions that a lot of people want to have, but not so many >>> people >>> want to have recorded. >>> >>> We could time-shift this chat to start three hours later every time, >>> to try to make it convenient for people around the globe. (Actually, >>> there's no reason we can't keep a chat open all the time, and just >>> remind people it's there every now and again. :) Not sure if >>> weekdays >>> or weekends work better for more people, though. >>> >>> I arbitrarily say that the first of these informal chats will begin >>> Thursday Aug. 21, at noon Eastern US time. That's 9am/09:00 on the >>> West Coast, 5pm/17:00 in Britain, and 2am/02:00 in Sydney. (Sorry, >>> Christy...) >>> >>> If you miss it, there's another one next week... but these >>> transcripts >>> will NOT be posted to the list, to allow people a little more >>> latitude >>> in what they say. >>> >>> Pending a better idea than IRC for the chat, I'll post join >>> instructions again on Wednesday sometime. >>> >>> -- >>> Andrea Phillips >>> http://www.deusexmachinatio.com >>> Words * Culture * Interaction >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ARG_Discuss mailing list >>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >>> >> >> >> Wendy Despain >> quantumcontent.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >> > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From wendeth at wendydespain.com Mon Aug 18 17:26:43 2008 From: wendeth at wendydespain.com (Wendy Despain) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 14:26:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [arg_discuss] Weekly Informal IRC Chats In-Reply-To: <2cbc13f50808181413n4cf68237p2a94ed2aa6c4ee56@mail.gmail.com> References: <5c799fd60808181140h466af248g9eeb0cdab7ec7d39@mail.gmail.com> <64906.69.144.84.128.1219085641.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> <2cbc13f50808181413n4cf68237p2a94ed2aa6c4ee56@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <50307.206.228.139.131.1219094803.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> Well, the Writing SIG uses this chat room instead of IRC for several reasons. You decide if they apply here or not. I'm just saying it's an option. 1) Compatibility. Sure, everyone can get to IRC - if they know how. Web interfaces are finicky and doing things the old-fashioned way requires some technical know-how. The chatroom requires pretty much no technical knowledge and thus there's a lower barrier to entry. 2) Simplified message. Instead of having to explain all the various ways of getting to IRC, getting to the right room, etc. all we have to do is distribute the URL, the date and the time (which can be confusing enough when working with a large group.) 3) Control of logs. Anyone can log the conversation on IRC. Only admin can log the conversation on the chatroom. While it's been more important for the Writing SIG to be able to have _reliable_ logging (which not all web chats have) in this case I can see where turning the logging off could be beneficial. 4) Control of the server. I have direct access to the guy who owns the server this chatroom is sitting on, so if I want changes or if something goes horribly wrong fixes are just a phonecall (or IM or email) away. So that's why we use it instead of IRC. Your mileage may vary. Wendy Despain quantumcontent.com On Mon, August 18, 2008 2:13 pm, Gupfee wrote: > Why is this option better than IRC on chat-sol? > > Marie > > On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 2:54 PM, Wendy Despain > wrote: > >> One of the members of the Writing SIG set up this chat room: >> http://chat.zakelro.com/ >> >> The Writers use it on rare occasions, and would be happy to share. >> >> Wendy Despain >> quantumcontent.com >> >> >> On Mon, August 18, 2008 11:40 am, Andrea Phillips wrote: >> > After the official SIG chat last night, which mainly dealt with >> Moo >> > cards, a few people expressed disappointment that there wasn't >> time to >> > just talk about stuff that's on our minds. While there is >> > off-the-record time to just chat after the agenda items are done, >> this >> > is a real, valid problem. So! >> > >> > I propose a rotating weekly chat on IRC (...or actually, Wendy has >> > said she has a better platform, if she'll speak up?) This time >> would >> > be good for the "Well, how do you price out your proposals?" and >> "How >> > much are you charging for X?" and "Say, what's the best freemail >> > provider for Y?" and "Which blogging platform has been the most >> > secure?" and "My GOD did you see what io9 said this time?!" kinds >> of >> > discussions that a lot of people want to have, but not so many >> people >> > want to have recorded. >> > >> > We could time-shift this chat to start three hours later every >> time, >> > to try to make it convenient for people around the globe. >> (Actually, >> > there's no reason we can't keep a chat open all the time, and just >> > remind people it's there every now and again. :) Not sure if >> weekdays >> > or weekends work better for more people, though. >> > >> > I arbitrarily say that the first of these informal chats will >> begin >> > Thursday Aug. 21, at noon Eastern US time. That's 9am/09:00 on the >> > West Coast, 5pm/17:00 in Britain, and 2am/02:00 in Sydney. (Sorry, >> > Christy...) >> > >> > If you miss it, there's another one next week... but these >> transcripts >> > will NOT be posted to the list, to allow people a little more >> latitude >> > in what they say. >> > >> > Pending a better idea than IRC for the chat, I'll post join >> > instructions again on Wednesday sometime. >> > >> > -- >> > Andrea Phillips >> > http://www.deusexmachinatio.com >> > Words * Culture * Interaction >> > _______________________________________________ >> > ARG_Discuss mailing list >> > ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >> > >> >> >> Wendy Despain >> quantumcontent.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >> > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > Wendy Despain quantumcontent.com From cdena at cross-mediaentertainment.com Mon Aug 18 22:14:45 2008 From: cdena at cross-mediaentertainment.com (Christy Dena) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2008 12:14:45 +1000 Subject: [arg_discuss] Aug. 18 SIG IRC Chat Transcript In-Reply-To: <5c799fd60808181116i799872b0o6b6057d6be5d5775@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080819021452.SULQ29987.nskntotgx03p.mx.bigpond.com@HPPIE> Yay! Looks like you all had fun. Sorry I couldn't make it. I'll agree belatedly that the cards would be good to hand out to people who want to know about ARGs. I can hand some out at conferences and guest lectures and I was thinking of offering some to post to people (at my own cost) -- with an invite on one of my blogs. Just letting you know in case others here think they could do the same. The photo idea is great -- it would be good to get a flickr gallery page on ARGology too. The site needs colour...even a black background or something to counter-balance the white logo?! And, I think it would be good if anyone was giving a public talk (industry & academic conferences) about ARGs (seems the Hons are the most active at the moment!), to post a news item about it before-hand on ARGology. So, talks any where around the world would be good, to help make the site a primary resource for all 'About ARGs' info. Love the idea of the weekly chat Andrea. Yay! Best, Christy -----Original Message----- From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [mailto:arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of Andrea Phillips Sent: Tuesday, 19 August 2008 04:17 To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG Subject: [arg_discuss] Aug. 18 SIG IRC Chat Transcript We had a nice turnout, and the transcript follows. For those of you without the fortitude to read through it, I'm going to be sending out a little flurry of posts with action items over the next hour or two. ************* [6:00pm] Andrhia: OK! [6:00pm] Andrhia: Let's get this party started, then! [6:00pm] Andrhia: Welcome one and all to our intermittently periodic IGDA ARG SIG IRC Chat! [6:01pm] Andrhia: I'm your hostess, Andrea Phillips; our beloved leader Adam Martin will very likely not be joining us today. [6:01pm] Andrhia: He does, however, send his regrets. [6:01pm] Andrhia: First, let's all go round a circle and introduce ourselves, so we can match up IRC nicks with names and accomplishments... [6:02pm] adrien: i m adrien [6:02pm] _varin: hehe [6:02pm] Jas0n|AporiaCME: :) [6:02pm] catherwash: alphabetically? [6:02pm] catherwash is now known as catherwood. [6:02pm] Andrhia: I'm, as I said, Andrea Phillips; I do freelance writing and game design for ARGs. Formerly of Mind Candy and Perplex City, and even before that from Cloudmakers. [6:02pm] Andrhia: I think we can all go at once and it'll be fine ^_^ [6:03pm] JohnEvans: Egad, chaos! [6:03pm] Andrhia: *yes* [6:03pm] Nighthawk|DFlor: Wouldn't have it any other way... [6:03pm] Baroblik: I'm Genevi?ve from Montreal. I did The Rivard Project and few other ARG in Quebec. [6:03pm] AgentLex|Uhmmm: Okay, I'm Lex, and I'm a gatecrasher. I mena, I'm currently running Alpha Agency, which somehow people thought had a good trailhead. I'm kinda experimenting with wht I call a "net curtain" blogging as I PM [6:03pm] macmonkey joined the chat room. [6:03pm] adam joined the chat room. [6:03pm] catherwood: well i'm catherwood everywhere, but you'd know me from Unfiction forums, as i do not post to the SIG mailing list -- i'm a player and i like meta discussions, but i'll never be a PM [6:03pm] Jas0n|AporiaCME: I'm Jason Chrest, Aporia Cross-Media Entertainment, I've worked on Ny Takma and the current Aporia Agathon Project... long time on the Sig list first time in the sig chat :) [6:04pm] labfly joined the chat room. [6:04pm] Jas0n|AporiaCME: (mac, adam, jan - we're doing introductions - just blurting them out) [6:04pm] _varin: I'm Michelle Senderhauf. I've as a freelancer on several projects including World Without Oil, Catching the Wish and Monster Hunter Club [6:05pm] _varin: gah, I've *worked* [6:05pm] adrianhon: I'm Adrian Hon, lead designer and co-founder of Six to Start. Our latest projects have been We Tell Stories, Liberty News (UK only, alas) and Young Bond: The Shadow War. Back at Mind Candy, I was lead designer of Perplex City. [6:05pm] Nighthawk|DFlor: David Flor, a.k.a. "Nighthawk", software developer and President of Darklight Interactive. Did Looking Glass Labs in the past, and am now struggling through my game called "BoL/SiD". Also creator of the "Brain Clouds" blogging software. [6:05pm] Jas0n|AporiaCME: (and evil inquisitor!) [6:05pm] jlr1001: I'm J.L. Reid, a freelance writer and marketing guy from Raleigh NC. Mostly I've been a player/lurker, but I'm interested in stepping behind the curtain... soon... [6:05pm] JohnEvans: I'm John Evans, known for administrating Argology.org, rambling on the ARG SIG ML and working on various small indie-type projects. [6:06pm] adrianhon: (I'm also running the 'Let's Change the Game' charity ARG project, and the winning team is releasing their 'Sleeper Cell' game very soon!) [6:06pm] labfly: hey i am jan libby i created both sammeeeeees projects and worked w lonelygirl15 [6:06pm] Nighthawk|DFlor: (I hope somebody's gonna keep a log of this... right?) [6:06pm] Andrhia: Yes, logs [6:06pm] ? catherwood automatically logs [6:06pm] Jas0n|AporiaCME: samee [6:06pm] Jas0n|AporiaCME: (er same) [6:06pm] TikiMike: I'm Mike Monello, partner in Campfire, have been involved with True Blood, Art of the Heist, Beta-7, Blair Witch, and a host of other cross media projects. [6:06pm] adrien: where did i already see this "lonelygirl15" pseudo ? [6:07pm] macmonkey: I'm Marc McGinley, just graduated in multimedia technology and design where I did a grassroots ARG for my dissertation. Currently working on bigger things :) [6:07pm] Andrhia: You're due to explain the Tiki thing, Mike... [6:07pm] Andrhia: You can't leave your Twitterpeeps hanging like that! [6:07pm] ][mez][: i'm mez breeze, ARG theorist + complier of the augmentology.com site. [6:07pm] naomialderman joined the chat room. [6:07pm] Baroblik: ( like Nighthawk suggest - will we get access to the log after this chat ?) [6:08pm] adam: Adam Martin, used to work with Adrian, Andrea, et al @ mindcandy. [6:08pm] TikiMike: hahaha, it's a bit of an obsession. I'm transforming a conference room at the office into a polynesian paradise. You'll have to drop by and check it out [6:08pm] Andrhia: I typically post the log to the mailing list a bit afterward [6:08pm] Andrhia: Ahhh, OK :) [6:08pm] Nighthawk|DFlor: I have to ask: how long has this list been around? [6:08pm] Gupfzz is now known as Gupfee. [6:08pm] Andrhia: The list has been around for a couple of years... [6:08pm] Nighthawk|DFlor: ... Secret cabal then. I get it. Go on... [6:09pm] Andrhia: Trying way hard not to be secret! [6:09pm] adam: started december 2005 / jan 2006 [6:09pm] adrien: git [6:09pm] Andrhia: We still need intros from Dan, Naomi, Gupfee, lurker? [6:09pm] adrien: gut [6:09pm] catherwood: yep, the web archives go back that far (if anyone wants to read archives) http://five.pairlist.net/pipermail/arg_discuss/ [6:10pm] naomialderman: hello, sorry I'm late [6:10pm] Andrhia: And ygramul, who is idle? [6:10pm] adrien: no but thanks [6:10pm] Andrhia: We're just introducing ourselves yet [6:10pm] Gupfee: Hi, I'm otherwise known as Marie Lamb, worked on some grassroots games and World Without Oil, currently available for any opportunities ;) [6:11pm] Andrhia: Hmm. As further intros may or may not trickle in, I have just a couple of official orders of business. [6:11pm] lurker left the chat room. (Quit: http://unfiction.com/chat/) [6:11pm] Andrhia: The first one is this: http://www.argology.org/arg-developers/ [6:11pm] naomialderman: I'm Naomi, I used to be lead writer on Perplex City, may she rest in peace, and wrote an ARG for wetellstories.co.uk at the start of this year. I write other things too. [6:11pm] danhon: Hello, I'm Dan Hon, CEO and co-founder of Six to Start, ex of Cloudmakers and Mind Candy, now working on the stuff Adrian already talked about. [6:11pm] daveszulborski joined the chat room. [6:11pm] Andrhia: If you are a studio or a freelancer and you are not on this list, but you would LIKE to be, please do email the address at the bottom of the page [6:11pm] Andrhia: Again, that URL: [6:11pm] Andrhia: http://www.argology.org/arg-developers/ [6:12pm] Andrhia: Trying to make it nice and authoritative. [6:12pm] Sam_3 joined the chat room. [6:12pm] Andrhia: Welcome, new joiners, we're still going round and introducing ourselves :) [6:12pm] Nighthawk|DFlor: I found that whining on your blog about not being on that list works, too... ;) [6:13pm] daveszulborski558 joined the chat room. [6:13pm] AgentLex|Uhmmm: heheh [6:13pm] Jas0n|AporiaCME: welcome again Dave :P [6:13pm] Andrhia: Yes, that does in fact work [6:13pm] Sam_3: Hi, took me a while to finally get in! [6:13pm] Nighthawk|DFlor: Hi Dave and Dave's evil twin! [6:13pm] daveszulborski558: hello [6:13pm] daveszulborski558: not sure why there are two of me ;) [6:13pm] Baroblik: Thanks for the link Andrhia - I would love to be on this list. [6:13pm] Andrhia: We don't have many formal things to talk about tonight [6:14pm] Andrhia: A little self-congratulation all around for lanching ARGolog [6:14pm] Andrhia: y [6:14pm] AgentLex|Uhmmm: Now I need to come up with a "studio" name? heh [6:14pm] AgentLex|Uhmmm: Woo argology [6:14pm] Andrhia: I think we'd do well to link to the panel videos on ARGN from there [6:14pm] Andrhia: But in all, well done, and we should try to keep the site growing and updating :) [6:15pm] Andrhia: In the interests or promoting ARGology, I've brought up ordering ARGology Moo cards [6:15pm] adrien: i m celebrating with excellent cheese mixed with honey.... [6:15pm] Andrhia: And then distributing them to SIG members, who could hand them out to people asking for more information about ARGs as required [6:15pm] adrien: :D [6:15pm] ][mez][: sounds fab. [6:15pm] Baroblik: :) [6:16pm] Nighthawk|DFlor: Who would I distribute to? I ain't got anyone within five hundred miles of here. [6:16pm] Jas0n|AporiaCME is now known as Jas0n. [6:16pm] Andrhia: I'm thinking that if we were to order, say, a thousand cards, then we could send 20 cards each to 50 SIG members? Or 50 cards each to 20 SIG members... [6:16pm] Andrhia: Well then, you don't need to have them ^_^ [6:16pm] adrien: exhilarating is the word [6:16pm] Andrhia: It would be on a volunteer basis to people who think they'd get a lot of use out of them [6:17pm] Andrhia: I'm not sure how to size up the order, though; we need to know how many people are actually interested in having them [6:17pm] adrien: i personnaly have ordererd moo cards [6:17pm] adrien: i can tell u that it s spending fast [6:17pm] Andrhia: And how many those people think they'd be able to use over, say, a year [6:18pm] adrien: would be better i think 50/20 [6:18pm] Andrhia: Can anyone think of a way to guesstimate this, or a way to force people to participate in a poll? [6:18pm] Jas0n: there are electronic versions of moo cards correct? [6:18pm] adrien: electronic ones ? [6:18pm] Andrhia: I mean, we can order 500 cards, or 2000; the trick is in working out how many we really do want to get. [6:18pm] adrien: how come ? [6:18pm] adam: we could also take a stack to conferences and give them away in hcunks fo 100 (or whatever) to anyeone who was present [6:18pm] naomialderman: perhaps send a message out to the list to ask people if they want some? [6:18pm] macmonkey: why don't we just order a small amount and see how it goes? [6:18pm] macmonkey: ;) [6:18pm] Jas0n: most of the people I communicate with on ARGs is done over the computer via e-mail, skype, and cell [6:18pm] adrien: members can financially participate tough [6:19pm] Andrhia: The SIG is entitled to a small amount of money from the IGDA [6:19pm] Andrhia: We I'd want to put in a grant request to use that money; and the more we order, the beter a volume discount we can get from Moo [6:19pm] Andrhia: Naomi: I did such a hting and got close to no response... [6:19pm] naomialderman: personally I'd probably just write "argology.org" on my personal cards when I give them out [6:20pm] jlr1001: How much money is the SIG entitled to? [6:20pm] adrien: ok then maybe will i renew my membership which expires soon [6:20pm] Andrhia: I'm not sure how much exactly, but it's not very much [6:20pm] Andrhia: The ARGology thing would probably about kick it :) [6:20pm] ][mez][: could we make an online evrsion? widgets? soem type of organised sig file? soc net thing? [6:20pm] jlr1001: And what other plans would require some of that money? [6:20pm] ][mez][: version, even [6:20pm] Andrhia: We don't have much in the way of money-spending plans at the moment [6:20pm] adrien: we re trying to put things forward too here in france [6:20pm] adam: also, we can make the designs avaialble for *anyone* to order their own moo cards using those designs [6:21pm] jlr1001: agree with adam... that might make the most sense. [6:21pm] Baroblik: I like adam's idea [6:21pm] adrien: i ve tried it but without success, perhaps 'cause of the pict.format [6:22pm] adam: you can setup moo orders from sources appropriately so that it works, I've worked with other people who've done it before. [6:22pm] adrien: *to design my own card* [6:22pm] adam: I think easiest is just to put things on flickr :) [6:22pm] adrien: *with the argology logo* [6:23pm] Andrhia: ...so is the Moo idea just not popular then? [6:23pm] Nighthawk|DFlor: Sorry, was away for a sec. [6:23pm] adam: I think the "bulk order, paid for by IGDA" would be good for the handful of peopel who naturally do a lot of conferences etc [6:23pm] Andrhia: The feeling seems to be 'waste of time and money' [6:23pm] adam: ? [6:24pm] adam: NB: we have money to spend. We shouldn't spend it frivolously, but if we don't spend it, it does us no good at all :). And we don't have much, but we do have somehwere in the region of hundreds of dollars a year [6:24pm] naomialderman: do the moderators think they'd use them? [6:24pm] labfly left the chat room. (Quit: http://unfiction.com/chat/) [6:24pm] adam: PLUS we can apply for "one-off" requests for up to thousands of dollars a year from a general pot, if we have good justification [6:24pm] adam: (just fyi) [6:24pm] adrien: Jas0n:electronic versions ? *rfid*? [6:25pm] ? Jas0n doesn't know :P [6:25pm] Andrhia: I could use a handful a year; I suspect people like Adam and Christy could use a lot more [6:25pm] adrien: well moo cards definitly is a good idea [6:25pm] adam: I would hand out in the region of 50-100 a year I think. Around 10-20 per conference [6:25pm] Nighthawk|DFlor: I missed a lot it seems. If you want something electronic or digital, I can easily arrange it. [6:25pm] labfly joined the chat room. [6:25pm] adrien: most important is to give to good peoples in good places [6:26pm] JohnEvans: Electronic is easy, and probably useful, but a physical card would have a certain presence. [6:26pm] _varin: agreed [6:26pm] labfly: i agree - i go to plenty of meetings where i could hand them out [6:26pm] adrianhon: ditto [6:26pm] adam: re-order times with moo cards are very short, so I'd be interested to try it with a smallish order size and see what happens [6:26pm] Baroblik: same here [6:27pm] Nighthawk|DFlor: You got a link for these "moo cards"? [6:27pm] _varin: I wouldn't need any myself though, as most of you are at any meeting I would attend ;) [6:27pm] Andrhia: OK [6:27pm] jlr1001: www.moo.com [6:27pm] Sam_3: I love physical cards! [6:27pm] Andrhia: So call it 200 mini-cards for a first order? [6:27pm] ? Nighthawk|DFlor facepalms [6:27pm] Nighthawk|DFlor: Duh [6:27pm] Gupfee: I'd like one for my own little swag shrine :) but the only place I'd see myself handing them out would be ARGFest [6:27pm] JohnEvans: they're like business cards but smaller and cuter. ;) [6:27pm] Andrhia: *so cute* [6:27pm] adam: http://www.moo.com/products/minicards.php [6:27pm] TikiMike: I love physical cards, but I would rather followup a meeting with an email and a link to the site than hand out a separate card to someone [6:28pm] AgentLex|Uhmmm: Same, Gup. I think that there's 2 groups of us, those whose profession is ARGs, and those whose hobby is ARGs. Professionals will need the cards :) [6:28pm] Nighthawk|DFlor: Do we have a logo or creative for the cards themselves? [6:29pm] Nighthawk|DFlor: ...and how about those of us that WANT to be professional? :) [6:29pm] adam: NB: it costs no more or less to have every single card printed differently [6:29pm] adrien: JohnEvans: u could now integrate electronic within papersee http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio-frequency_identification [6:29pm] Andrhia: Tiki: I feel like I need to make a clean distinction between representing myself and representing the SIG, but that doesn't apply to everybody ^_^ [6:29pm] adam: so I'd assumed we'd come up with a family of designs [6:29pm] adrien: i ve seen doing with visit cards [6:29pm] Andrhia: And we do have an ARGology logo, see: Upper left at ARGology.org [6:30pm] adrien: why is upper left ? [6:30pm] adrien: :s [6:30pm] Andrhia: Because this is where it is on the page? [6:30pm] adam: re: 200 cards ... howabout 20 cards for everyone who thinks they'll hand them out at conferences etc. That will probably be in the region of 10-20 people, I guess? [6:30pm] adrien: 50/20 [6:30pm] jlr1001: (having to step away for a few...) [6:30pm] labfly: i'm off to a sunday olympics theme party - nk - :) goo moo cards i will check out the log later bye, everybody! [6:30pm] Andrhia: Sounds fine to me... [6:31pm] adam: (i.e. yes, 200 sounds fine, unless there's a lot more people who feel they'd have opportunities to hand them around :)) [6:31pm] Jas0n: later Jan :) [6:31pm] AgentLex|Uhmmm: See ya Jan [6:31pm] adrien: plus : which contact would be on these cards? [6:31pm] labfly left the chat room. (Quit: http://unfiction.com/chat/) [6:31pm] adrien: should it mentionned a local contact or the mothership ? [6:31pm] Andrhia: It would just be the site [6:32pm] Andrhia: And maybe the admin email, but probably just the URL [6:32pm] adrien: yes but [6:32pm] adrien: okay [6:32pm] Baroblik: Since the homebase is the argology.com ... that would be the best [6:32pm] adam: mailing list signup URL? :) (we could make an easier URL on argology that redirects?) [6:33pm] adam: (since the mailng list seems to consistently be the main centre of communication at the moment) [6:33pm] adrien: i assume the giver will do the rest [6:33pm] Andrhia: Hm, maybe [6:33pm] catherwood: not everyone you're handing these to belong on the discussion/mailing list [6:34pm] Andrhia: No, hopefully none of them would [6:34pm] Andrhia: It would be a recruiting tool [6:34pm] Andrhia: Among other things [6:34pm] adam: hmm... you know, we CAN have a unique contact printed on each card as well. [6:35pm] Andrhia: This makes distributing them troublesome [6:35pm] Baroblik: need a little phrase - punch line on the top of the url + email explaning exactly what we are handing this little card for ... [6:35pm] Andrhia: Because then we have to know in advance how many people get how many cards, and can't repurpose them at conferences [6:35pm] Andrhia: The idea is not for these to be personal cards. [6:35pm] adam: sorry, to be clear: I was suggesting that the cards hve ARGOLOGY on the back, plus URL, plus tagline, and then instead of a contact email address, have a singup email / URL to the mailing list. [6:36pm] adam: yep. [6:36pm] Baroblik: Join the force - www.argology.com [6:36pm] AgentLex|Uhmmm: Is there enough room on a minicard for all that? [6:36pm] Andrhia: .org [6:36pm] Andrhia: .com is not ours [6:36pm] adrien: i should recommend the argology.com (or was it .org?) to mark eyles [6:36pm] Baroblik: sorry ... i was to quick [6:36pm] ][mez][: we could try a more cryptic apporach...with just the webiste on it. seems fitting somehow. [6:36pm] adam: 6 lines of text on back is standard, although often you leave some lines blank to make the formmating loook nicer (effectively making paragraph breaks) [6:36pm] catherwood: adam, that's why i asked who these are for and why you'd send them to the mailing list? [6:37pm] Nighthawk|DFlor: ..in ROT-13... ;) [6:37pm] Andrhia: We'd send them to people on the mailing list to pass out to people who are NOT on the mailing list yet [6:37pm] Andrhia: People who don't know much about ARGs but would like to learn more. [6:38pm] catherwood: but not potential clients, i guess? [6:38pm] Jas0n: I was thinking they'd be for people who are potential clients who are seeking more information about the genre -- and/or other people in the entertainment industry who seem interested in learning more about the genre [6:38pm] Andrhia: Sure, potential clients [6:38pm] adam: catherwood: ah, I see. I'm assuming they're for everyone/anyone. Thinking about it more, I think putting contact details for any individuals on the back is a bad idea :). The purpose is to promote the site, not any person [6:38pm] jlr1001: But would/should everyone end up on the mailing list? [6:38pm] adrien: u are all very sweet, i now am goin to sleep [6:38pm] Jas0n: g'night adrien [6:38pm] adrien: good night everyone [6:39pm] adrien: see "ya [6:39pm] AgentLex|Uhmmm: Night adrien [6:39pm] _varin: good night [6:39pm] Andrhia: Potential clients was actually one of the original use cases, so to speak [6:39pm] Nighthawk|DFlor: I imagined it was late over there. G'night. [6:39pm] adrien: all the best pal' [6:39pm] Omega joined the chat room. [6:39pm] AgentLex|Uhmmm: Ohcrap, it's Omega [6:39pm] Andrhia: Or people who have approached you asking you to put together an ARG proposal, but maybe don't know what they're getting into [6:39pm] adrien: :) [6:39pm] adrien left the chat room. [6:40pm] Andrhia: Or people who have started to make cross-media projects that just might be ARGs, who might love to know about our community [6:41pm] adam: jlr1001: the mailnig list seems to be a good place for people to end up who are intersted in all the things that ARGology is explaining, showing, promoting, etc [6:41pm] Baroblik: Or people saying they are ARG developpers but haven't played one or create one yet ;) Sorry ... It happened to me a lot lately. [6:41pm] Jas0n: lol [6:41pm] Andrhia: Baroblik: Hah, I suppose that isn't surprising. :) [6:41pm] Jas0n: io9 ;) [6:42pm] Baroblik: Not surprising, but not really that fun something :) [6:42pm] ][mez][: so we're kinda pre-supposing any potential card-recipients have a priori info re ARGs, whcih is y i'd pitch a more cryptic approach. tho maybe that could be for a separate proj? [6:42pm] adam: does anyone have ideas for individual designs to put on the picture side? [6:42pm] Andrhia: We of course have the ARGology logo [6:42pm] Andrhia: Could we use the IGDA logo as well? [6:43pm] adam: ah ... mixing with mez's comment: we could have some cryptic interesting stuff on some of the picture sides? [6:43pm] Baroblik: Numbers ... Letters ... All sorts of codes [6:43pm] naomialderman: [I have a completely off-the-point question. Should the argology site contain a mini-ARG?] [6:43pm] ][mez][: oo me likey [6:43pm] Andrhia: I am against this plan, frankly [6:44pm] Andrhia: The Writer's SIG does not need to be in narrative form, for example; the Casual Games SIG does not need its own Flash game gallery [6:44pm] catherwood: don't create barriers for people honestly looking for information, but if it's in a side directory or "samples" section, maybe [6:44pm] Andrhia: We're trying to make the information easily accessible and obvious [6:44pm] AgentLex|Uhmmm: I'm with Andrea on that one. ARGology is more of a resource - though an "example of an ARG" article might be useful [6:44pm] adam: well ... but the writers sig does write books [6:44pm] Andrhia: If we could hit them over the head with a hammer, I'd be done with that [6:44pm] ][mez][: naomi>> i thought about that wehn argology 1st went live, but decided it may add confusion 2 a site really that presents itself as straight info-directed, not open enuff 2 incorporate a cross-media approach? [6:44pm] Andrhia: er, down [6:44pm] ? Jas0n agrees with Andrea and Cather [6:44pm] Nighthawk|DFlor: We have a few examples already, no? [6:45pm] Andrhia: And frankly, I think that the 'well, who gets to design the official ARGology Cunning Thing' would introduce a competitive element I would rather not see. [6:45pm] Andrhia: We do have some sample ARGs, yes [6:45pm] Andrhia: They're linked from the main SIG page [6:45pm] ][mez][: a spin-off/applied eg would work well, but it would have to be transparent in execution [6:45pm] TikiMike: totally agree -- the more cryptic argology becomes the less useful as a resource [6:45pm] ? catherwood should probably look at the site for real sometime [6:45pm] Baroblik: In the design of a small card like this, I think that less is more ... [6:46pm] adam: howabout using a couple of card designs as examples of common ARG techniques, each linking back to the argology site? (and at this point I have a sense of deja vu, talkig about ways of getting physical cards to link to a website for an ARG...) [6:46pm] Andrhia: Hah. [6:46pm] AgentLex|Uhmmm: Picture side rot-13, reverse site a regular link - again, we want the information to be accessible? [6:46pm] Nighthawk|DFlor: I made my slogan in to a puzzle on my business card. [6:46pm] ][mez][: i don't see the moocard having minimal info as confusing, however. just not keent o embed an active ARG in the website. [6:46pm] adam: yes, exactly [6:47pm] Andrhia: Yeah, I'd just as rather not [6:47pm] Gupfee: just be careful not to give the impression that's it's all about puzzles and cryptography [6:47pm] Nighthawk|DFlor: Don't get me wrong: I'm not suggesting that either. Cards should be to the point and not cryptic or mysterious. [6:47pm] Andrhia: Then it becomes an expression of a particular flavor of ARG [6:47pm] Baroblik: I agree [6:47pm] _varin: me too [6:48pm] Andrhia: Still, we don't have anything to put on the backs as images. [6:48pm] adam: well, yes. But, eventually, if we are always completely even-handed then our ability to do anything interesting becomes vanishingly small [6:48pm] ][mez][: even just somethign as simple as a simple by-line encapsulating cross-media/ARGs...something snappy... [6:48pm] Andrhia: Could we put together a Flickr gallery of screen shots, video stills, other photos from ARGs we have known and loved? [6:48pm] Andrhia: And use those? [6:49pm] TikiMike: I would argue that the cards be very straight forward, have no puzzles or anything funky about them -- straight info [6:49pm] adam: I am not a lover of cryptology in args, it bores me, but its something simple and visual (and easy) to stick on the picture side of a card, and it's on-topic [6:49pm] Andrhia: I'm assuming some of us here have the authority to clear such material for use [6:49pm] _varin: What about just putting the logo on teh picture side? Too boring? [6:49pm] ][mez][: great idea re shot compilation andr, + perhaps invite memebrs to remix/mash/work em? [6:49pm] Andrhia: Well, logo on the front, other picture on the back :) [6:49pm] Gupfee: agree w/ TikiMike--the creativity can come from the images and the tag lines used, not needing any puzzly bits [6:49pm] Andrhia: Actually, this was originally Adam's idea and not mine ^_^ [6:49pm] Baroblik: Like the idea of the flickr gallery, so every one could contribute - and we could pick a top ten - patterns, colors or images [6:50pm] TikiMike: when I have to pitch a project to a client I often use an inverse rule -- the more outrageous and experimental the campaign, the more I use traditional language and formats to pitch it [6:50pm] ][mez][: sounds workable baro [6:50pm] adam: varin: moo cards tend to work very well with "intersting" images on, because of the strange form-factor. They don't tend to work well with plain logos. [6:50pm] catherwood: pictures of players at events -- but then don't you need releases or permission to use their images? [6:50pm] _varin: You can put pics on both sides? Are these the minicards we're talking about? [6:50pm] Andrhia: Yes, the minicards [6:50pm] Nighthawk|DFlor: I'd love one with my "digital rabbit" on it. :) [6:50pm] adam: varin: you get room for a SMALL pic on one side, the whole of the other side is a pic [6:51pm] _varin: okay, that's what I made for myself :) [6:51pm] ][mez][: i wouldn't go for real-time photos, more logo based would work better i suspect [6:51pm] Andrhia: Logos would muddy the message [6:51pm] Andrhia: Of who exactly is behind ARGology [6:51pm] adam: so ... howabout making a flickr photostream that anyone can submit to, and they warrant that they have the rights to their images? Pictures of people just need to not be identifiable, but IIRC flickr has guideliens already on what you're allowed to do with iamges you take (no?) [6:51pm] ][mez][: i heard moocards r very expensive. is there a way we coudl explore getting a reg printer to make em instead? cut back on costs? [6:52pm] adam: moo cards are generally cheap [6:52pm] Jas0n: an image of a book, a computer monitor, a phone, an envelope, and a person at a desk [6:52pm] Andrhia: Moo cards for the quality arne't very expensive at all [6:52pm] Baroblik: details of everybody in ARGology ... a close up of a nose, an hand, a finger, a lip, an ear, an eye ... but from everyone on our list ;) [6:52pm] ][mez][: ok adam, my source must have been incorrect *naughty source!*;) [6:52pm] Nighthawk|DFlor: I have a shutterstock subscription if need be; so long as it's not an "editorial" image it's fair game, no? [6:52pm] adam: I have never found a reliable business card printer as cheap as moo (I've used a lot), unless you go for limited colour palettes [6:52pm] Andrhia: Maybe we can start a Flickr pool and then do polling about which images to use [6:53pm] adam: +1 for flickr pool [6:53pm] Andrhia: Again, the theme of "ARG-like" [6:53pm] ][mez][: +2 [6:53pm] Baroblik: +3 [6:53pm] Nighthawk|DFlor: (n+1) [6:53pm] ][mez][: lol:) [6:53pm] Andrhia: Going once.... going twice... and SOLD! [6:53pm] Baroblik: :) [6:53pm] Andrhia: Whew [6:53pm] Andrhia: An hour talking about Moo cards, who knew? [6:53pm] ? adam would be interested to see what appears :) [6:53pm] ][mez][: indeed, who did? [6:54pm] Andrhia: OK [6:54pm] Nighthawk|DFlor: I'm sure I'll be the first to violate site Terms of Service. I always am. :) [6:54pm] adam: lol [6:54pm] Andrhia: Next order of business: We have a lovely turnout here tonight, but in the interests of fairness, I'm looking at making the next chat durign the day on a weekday [6:55pm] Jas0n: Wed-Fri would be good :P [6:55pm] adam: midnight. I must go. Before I turn into a pumpkin. Night, all. [6:55pm] Nighthawk|DFlor: Considering we have people in the US, Europe and Australia, maybe rotate the time so that everyone's miserable at least once? [6:55pm] AgentLex|Uhmmm: See ya adam [6:55pm] Andrhia: I proposed: 8am PST/ 11am EST/ 4pm BST/ 1am in Sydney [6:55pm] Baroblik: see ya adam [6:55pm] adam left the chat room. [6:56pm] Andrhia: Poor Australia always gets the shaft [6:56pm] Jas0n: That's what they get for being a day ahead :P [6:56pm] Andrhia: Let's call it for Sept. 18, a Thursday [6:56pm] andre joined the chat room. [6:56pm] Andrhia: What do we think? [6:56pm] Jas0n: sounds good [6:56pm] Baroblik: I've been puppetmastering Rivard Project for 6 weeks with people from everywhere in the globe, I can suffer as much as you want and be miserable for others .. It's fine with me :) [6:56pm] Nighthawk|DFlor: Sounds good [6:57pm] JohnEvans: Sounds okay. [6:57pm] Gupfee: once school starts, I'm good :) [6:57pm] _varin: I'm up for feeling miserable every once in a while [6:57pm] Andrhia: OK! [6:57pm] Andrhia: I'll email the list about it later tonight [6:57pm] Andrhia: And... that's all of the agenda I've got, folks [6:57pm] Andrhia: I turn it over to you to talk about the fun stuff, or ask me pesky administrative questions [6:58pm] Andrhia: Or, you know, whatever [6:58pm] Nighthawk|DFlor: Aw... so where's the super awesome trailhead I was expecting from this group? [6:58pm] Baroblik: the list and the flickr gallery address when it will be available ? [6:58pm] Andrhia: Knock yourselves out! [6:58pm] AgentLex|Uhmmm: Nighthawk: www.superawesometrailhead.com of course [6:58pm] Jas0n: Where's the guy in the banana hammock? [6:58pm] Andrhia: Baroblik: I'll try to set something up and email the list when it's up [6:58pm] Andrhia: I know, right? [6:58pm] Baroblik: Andrhia : Thanks ! [6:58pm] ? Jas0n goes and puts his speedo on [6:58pm] Andrhia: Hah! [6:59pm] Nighthawk|DFlor: I'm gonna run here. Apparently have a hurricane to prepare for... [6:59pm] andre: hey guys, Andre here from Brazil [6:59pm] _varin: ugh, good luck Nighthawk [6:59pm] AgentLex|Uhmmm: See ya Nighthawk [6:59pm] daveszulborski558: bye nighthawk [6:59pm] Nighthawk|DFlor left the chat room. (Quit: ) [7:00pm] andre is now known as Andre. [7:00pm] Baroblik: Hi Andre from Brazil ! [7:00pm] Jas0n: Welcome Andre [7:00pm] Andrhia: I'm ending the official transciption log... NOW _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From dflor71 at gmail.com Tue Aug 19 08:48:01 2008 From: dflor71 at gmail.com (David Flor) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2008 08:48:01 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Weekly Informal IRC Chats In-Reply-To: <50307.206.228.139.131.1219094803.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> References: <5c799fd60808181140h466af248g9eeb0cdab7ec7d39@mail.gmail.com> <64906.69.144.84.128.1219085641.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> <2cbc13f50808181413n4cf68237p2a94ed2aa6c4ee56@mail.gmail.com> <50307.206.228.139.131.1219094803.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> Message-ID: <50b4b0580808190548n439b4decq8d28a7337b4f1221@mail.gmail.com> Makes no real difference to me, I guess. I admit I'm still not 100% sure how private or public these conversations are; it's been the "secret cabal" as I described it for now... aren't we trying to get away from that? As for monthly or weekly meetings for me, it's a time consideration I guess. I'd love to be part of all of them, but I'll have to approach the schedule on a meeting-by-meeting basis. And, if need be, I can provide our own meeting area under my vBulletin forums so we can have threaded conversations, but that might defeat the purpose of this list. :) Tnx & Rgds... David Flor ( dflor at dlimedia.com ) Darklight Interactive ( http://www.dlimedia.com/ ) "Omne ignotum pro magnifico" On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 5:26 PM, Wendy Despain wrote: > Well, the Writing SIG uses this chat room instead of IRC for several > reasons. You decide if they apply here or not. I'm just saying it's an > option. > > 1) Compatibility. Sure, everyone can get to IRC - if they know how. > Web interfaces are finicky and doing things the old-fashioned way > requires some technical know-how. The chatroom requires pretty much no > technical knowledge and thus there's a lower barrier to entry. > > 2) Simplified message. Instead of having to explain all the various > ways of getting to IRC, getting to the right room, etc. all we have to > do is distribute the URL, the date and the time (which can be > confusing enough when working with a large group.) > > 3) Control of logs. Anyone can log the conversation on IRC. Only admin > can log the conversation on the chatroom. While it's been more > important for the Writing SIG to be able to have _reliable_ logging > (which not all web chats have) in this case I can see where turning > the logging off could be beneficial. > > 4) Control of the server. I have direct access to the guy who owns the > server this chatroom is sitting on, so if I want changes or if > something goes horribly wrong fixes are just a phonecall (or IM or > email) away. > > So that's why we use it instead of IRC. Your mileage may vary. > > Wendy Despain > quantumcontent.com > > > On Mon, August 18, 2008 2:13 pm, Gupfee wrote: >> Why is this option better than IRC on chat-sol? >> >> Marie >> >> On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 2:54 PM, Wendy Despain >> wrote: >> >>> One of the members of the Writing SIG set up this chat room: >>> http://chat.zakelro.com/ >>> >>> The Writers use it on rare occasions, and would be happy to share. >>> >>> Wendy Despain >>> quantumcontent.com >>> >>> >>> On Mon, August 18, 2008 11:40 am, Andrea Phillips wrote: >>> > After the official SIG chat last night, which mainly dealt with >>> Moo >>> > cards, a few people expressed disappointment that there wasn't >>> time to >>> > just talk about stuff that's on our minds. While there is >>> > off-the-record time to just chat after the agenda items are done, >>> this >>> > is a real, valid problem. So! >>> > >>> > I propose a rotating weekly chat on IRC (...or actually, Wendy has >>> > said she has a better platform, if she'll speak up?) This time >>> would >>> > be good for the "Well, how do you price out your proposals?" and >>> "How >>> > much are you charging for X?" and "Say, what's the best freemail >>> > provider for Y?" and "Which blogging platform has been the most >>> > secure?" and "My GOD did you see what io9 said this time?!" kinds >>> of >>> > discussions that a lot of people want to have, but not so many >>> people >>> > want to have recorded. >>> > >>> > We could time-shift this chat to start three hours later every >>> time, >>> > to try to make it convenient for people around the globe. >>> (Actually, >>> > there's no reason we can't keep a chat open all the time, and just >>> > remind people it's there every now and again. :) Not sure if >>> weekdays >>> > or weekends work better for more people, though. >>> > >>> > I arbitrarily say that the first of these informal chats will >>> begin >>> > Thursday Aug. 21, at noon Eastern US time. That's 9am/09:00 on the >>> > West Coast, 5pm/17:00 in Britain, and 2am/02:00 in Sydney. (Sorry, >>> > Christy...) >>> > >>> > If you miss it, there's another one next week... but these >>> transcripts >>> > will NOT be posted to the list, to allow people a little more >>> latitude >>> > in what they say. >>> > >>> > Pending a better idea than IRC for the chat, I'll post join >>> > instructions again on Wednesday sometime. >>> > >>> > -- >>> > Andrea Phillips >>> > http://www.deusexmachinatio.com >>> > Words * Culture * Interaction >>> > _______________________________________________ >>> > ARG_Discuss mailing list >>> > ARG_Discuss at igda.org >>> > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >>> > >>> >>> >>> Wendy Despain >>> quantumcontent.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> ARG_Discuss mailing list >>> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >>> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >> > > > Wendy Despain > quantumcontent.com > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > From dflor71 at gmail.com Tue Aug 19 08:50:45 2008 From: dflor71 at gmail.com (David Flor) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2008 08:50:45 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Moo Cards Decision & Flickr Pool In-Reply-To: <5c799fd60808181150k6fd4ca93oa9bcaaa28d018e2c@mail.gmail.com> References: <5c799fd60808181150k6fd4ca93oa9bcaaa28d018e2c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <50b4b0580808190550o554df0fbt986917120d889735@mail.gmail.com> Is this "Flickr pool" already active? How do us non-Flickr savvy people access it? On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 2:50 PM, Andrea Phillips wrote: > The chat last night mostly focused on Moo cards, and the SIG ordering > some to represent ARGology. This turned out to be a much more lively > discussion than I might have guessed. :) > > The upshot is this: We're going to order 200 cards to send to people > to pass out at conventions and suchlike, to see how the cards work out > for us; if it seems successful, we'll look into placing a larger > order. > > The cards will include the ARGology logo, URL, and information to join > the SIG list on the front. On the back, we'll choose photos from a > Flickr pool that I have just created, called argsigmoo. If you have > the rights to some ARGolicious photos you'd like to see on the backs > of the ARGology Moo cards, add 'em on into the pool! But please don't > add photos that would put us in violation of copyright, law, or > widespread standards of good taste. > > Thaaannnnnk you! > > -- > Andrea Phillips > http://www.deusexmachinatio.com > Words * Culture * Interaction > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > From andrhia at gmail.com Wed Aug 20 11:34:58 2008 From: andrhia at gmail.com (Andrea Phillips) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 11:34:58 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Weekly IRC Chat Tomorrow Message-ID: <5c799fd60808200834n7fbc97bat20b8d500e7d606e@mail.gmail.com> I'm not sensing rampant enthusiasm for switching away from IRC. If it ain't broken, don't fix it... So I think for now we're better off sticking with the familiar. And therefore! In about 24 hours' time from now, let's all hang out and chat about our projects, our plans, the state of the business... all of it. :) The specific date/time is: Thursday Aug. 21, at noon Eastern US time. That's 9am/09:00 on the West Coast, 5pm/17:00 in Britain, and 2am/02:00 in Sydney HOW TO GET ON IRC: For those of us who may not be familiar with IRC, you first need to download a client such as mIRC for Windows (http://www.mirc.org/) or Colloquy for OSX (http://colloquy.info/downloads.html). When you have it downloaded and installed, you will need to connect to a server. Ours is irc.chat-solutions.org. The port you will need is the default, 6667. Once you have a connection to the server, you need to join the SIG chat channel, which is #arg_sig (including the pound sign, it's important). You may also use the Unfiction applet here: http://www.unfiction.com/chat/ Just make sure to input #arg_sig into the channel field, plus your name & etc. If you've never used IRC before and you're a little worried, I'd encourage you to try it out ahead of time, it won't hurt anything. :) And feel free to email me if you're having trouble getting everything all set up. -- Andrea Phillips http://www.deusexmachinatio.com Words * Culture * Interaction From andrhia at gmail.com Wed Aug 20 11:41:29 2008 From: andrhia at gmail.com (Andrea Phillips) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 11:41:29 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Moo Cards Decision & Flickr Pool In-Reply-To: <50b4b0580808190550o554df0fbt986917120d889735@mail.gmail.com> References: <5c799fd60808181150k6fd4ca93oa9bcaaa28d018e2c@mail.gmail.com> <50b4b0580808190550o554df0fbt986917120d889735@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5c799fd60808200841w51e5cb25sd99eb60f8c43ea1e@mail.gmail.com> The Flickr pool does already exist, yes, though there aren't any pictures there yet. Here's the URL: http://www.flickr.com/groups/809268 at N25/ To look at the pictures, I believe you can just go to that URL. To add pictures to the group, you need to: 1. Make a Flickr account at http://www.flickr.com 2. Upload your pictures to your account as per http://www.flickr.com/help/photos/#16 3. Join the group (there's a join link from the group URL above) 4. Add the pictures to the group: http://www.flickr.com/help/groups/#57 If anyone has trouble with any step of this, go ahead and email me privately and I'll try to help you out. :) Now get cracking with uploading some ARGtastic pics for our Moo cards! On Tue, Aug 19, 2008 at 8:50 AM, David Flor wrote: > Is this "Flickr pool" already active? How do us non-Flickr savvy > people access it? > > On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 2:50 PM, Andrea Phillips wrote: >> The chat last night mostly focused on Moo cards, and the SIG ordering >> some to represent ARGology. This turned out to be a much more lively >> discussion than I might have guessed. :) >> >> The upshot is this: We're going to order 200 cards to send to people >> to pass out at conventions and suchlike, to see how the cards work out >> for us; if it seems successful, we'll look into placing a larger >> order. >> >> The cards will include the ARGology logo, URL, and information to join >> the SIG list on the front. On the back, we'll choose photos from a >> Flickr pool that I have just created, called argsigmoo. If you have >> the rights to some ARGolicious photos you'd like to see on the backs >> of the ARGology Moo cards, add 'em on into the pool! But please don't >> add photos that would put us in violation of copyright, law, or >> widespread standards of good taste. >> >> Thaaannnnnk you! >> >> -- >> Andrea Phillips >> http://www.deusexmachinatio.com >> Words * Culture * Interaction >> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >> > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > -- Andrea Phillips http://www.deusexmachinatio.com Words * Culture * Interaction From adam.m.s.martin at googlemail.com Wed Aug 20 12:30:23 2008 From: adam.m.s.martin at googlemail.com (Adam Martin) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 17:30:23 +0100 Subject: [arg_discuss] Wiki pages: IRC chat archives + IRC instructions Message-ID: I've put all the transcripts / chat logs I could find from previous ARG SIG IRC chats on the IGDA wiki here: http://www.igda.org/wiki/Alternate_Reality_Games_SIG/IRC_Chats and the instructions for joining future IRC chats here: http://www.igda.org/wiki/Alternate_Reality_Games_SIG/IRC_Chats/IRC_Instructions If there's anything with the instructions that needs improving, please go head and improve them! (edit them directly - if you don't have an IGDA wiki account, it's free to create one, just go to the site and click the Register / login link at the top right of the page). From mmonello at campfirenyc.com Wed Aug 20 16:08:33 2008 From: mmonello at campfirenyc.com (Mike Monello) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 13:08:33 -0700 Subject: [arg_discuss] Weekly IRC Chat Tomorrow In-Reply-To: <5c799fd60808200834n7fbc97bat20b8d500e7d606e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I'm not going to advocate for a change right away, but I do think a change to a web based interface is a step in the right direction for a number of reasons. First, it is easier and more accessible, and there are a lot of people who work in environments during the day where they might not be able to install IRC clients on their machines. More importantly, however, is that perception is reality when dealing with a young art or genre like ARG. Since the SIG is one of the more visible organizations supporting it, outsiders will look to SIG activities to try and get an understanding of ARGs. Since IRC = tech geek to most, it marginalizes the groups ability to affect opinion. It's silly, I know, but if one of our goals is to represent to the world at large the value of ARGs, then we should be aware of of these normally trivial concerns. Best, Mike On 8/20/08 11:34 AM, "Andrea Phillips" wrote: I'm not sensing rampant enthusiasm for switching away from IRC. If it ain't broken, don't fix it... So I think for now we're better off sticking with the familiar. And therefore! In about 24 hours' time from now, let's all hang out and chat about our projects, our plans, the state of the business... all of it. :) The specific date/time is: Thursday Aug. 21, at noon Eastern US time. That's 9am/09:00 on the West Coast, 5pm/17:00 in Britain, and 2am/02:00 in Sydney HOW TO GET ON IRC: For those of us who may not be familiar with IRC, you first need to download a client such as mIRC for Windows (http://www.mirc.org/) or Colloquy for OSX (http://colloquy.info/downloads.html). When you have it downloaded and installed, you will need to connect to a server. Ours is irc.chat-solutions.org. The port you will need is the default, 6667. Once you have a connection to the server, you need to join the SIG chat channel, which is #arg_sig (including the pound sign, it's important). You may also use the Unfiction applet here: http://www.unfiction.com/chat/ Just make sure to input #arg_sig into the channel field, plus your name & etc. If you've never used IRC before and you're a little worried, I'd encourage you to try it out ahead of time, it won't hurt anything. :) And feel free to email me if you're having trouble getting everything all set up. -- Andrea Phillips http://www.deusexmachinatio.com Words * Culture * Interaction _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss --- Mike Monello Partner, Campfire http://www.campfirenyc.com From am14 at leicester.ac.uk Wed Aug 20 18:21:30 2008 From: am14 at leicester.ac.uk (Moseley, A.) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 23:21:30 +0100 Subject: [arg_discuss] Spreading the word + ALT-C 2008 Message-ID: <439DB4BD66E08F40903F804806A77AB368F1ED92CC@EXC-MBX1.cfs.le.ac.uk> Hi all. Back from holiday now, and an overdue plug added to my blog for ARGology (which is looking mighty fine with its logo): http://moerg.wordpress.com/2008/08/17/argologyorg/ I've also noticed that I'm now one of three papers at ALT-C 08 (Leeds, England) which deal with ARGs in education: the first paper slot on Tuesday morning (8th Sept) contains Manchester Met's ARGOSI project, another ARG paper I know nothing about, and mine which will suggest a set of key features which education can take from ARGs. I'll make sure I finish off the session with a plug for ARGology. Alex. Alex Moseley, Principal Computer Officer, Faculty of Arts, University of Leicester. From btradish at earthlink.net Wed Aug 20 19:40:38 2008 From: btradish at earthlink.net (John Evans) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 19:40:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [arg_discuss] Weekly IRC Chat Tomorrow Message-ID: <24002215.1219275639107.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net> >Since IRC = tech geek to most, it marginalizes the groups ability to affect opinion. IRC does not "equal tech geek"; it's been around for about 20 years and become a standard. Ordinary eople use it everyday for real-time activities like roleplaying. -- John Evans Chaoseed Software - http://chaoseed.com From wendeth at wendydespain.com Wed Aug 20 19:57:00 2008 From: wendeth at wendydespain.com (Wendy Despain) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 16:57:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [arg_discuss] Weekly IRC Chat Tomorrow In-Reply-To: <24002215.1219275639107.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.n et> References: <24002215.1219275639107.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <63701.206.228.139.131.1219276620.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> I'm going to chime in on the side of IRC being not so well-known among the general public, partly because it has been around for 20 years. A lot of shinier things have come along in the meantime, and since IRC uses essentially a command-line interface, it looks intimidating to people who have gotten used to a graphical user interface. This isn't to say IRC gets no use anymore. It's pretty healthy as far as I can tell. But it caters to a niche. And I think using it encourages an exclusionary image for ARG developers. You have to know the secret handshake (technology) before you can get in on the conversation. I get the impression this concerns some people and not others. I'll just say I like encouraging everybody to participate, even if they weren't even born 20 years ago and don't know what DOS is. But for now I hope we can agree to disagree. :-) Wendy Despain quantumcontent.com On Wed, August 20, 2008 4:40 pm, John Evans wrote: >>Since IRC = tech geek to most, it marginalizes the groups ability to >> affect opinion. > > IRC does not "equal tech geek"; it's been around for about 20 years > and > become a standard. Ordinary eople use it everyday for real-time > activities like roleplaying. > > -- > John Evans > Chaoseed Software - http://chaoseed.com > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > Wendy Despain quantumcontent.com From mmonello at campfirenyc.com Wed Aug 20 22:55:33 2008 From: mmonello at campfirenyc.com (Mike Monello) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2008 19:55:33 -0700 Subject: [arg_discuss] Weekly IRC Chat Tomorrow In-Reply-To: <24002215.1219275639107.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Hey, I'm still on Usenet, and when I try to explain what it is and how to use it to people they look at me like I'm some insane hacker. I would also argue that "ordinary" people don't real-time roleplay online at all, forget about IRC or web chat! On 8/20/08 7:40 PM, "John Evans" wrote: >Since IRC = tech geek to most, it marginalizes the groups ability to affect opinion. IRC does not "equal tech geek"; it's been around for about 20 years and become a standard. Ordinary eople use it everyday for real-time activities like roleplaying. -- John Evans Chaoseed Software - http://chaoseed.com _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From dbwall at mac.com Thu Aug 21 02:19:38 2008 From: dbwall at mac.com (D B Wall) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 01:19:38 -0500 Subject: [arg_discuss] Weekly IRC Chat Tomorrow In-Reply-To: <21fddd03040923131614becb9d@mail.gmail.com> References: <9444549.1088187120325.JavaMail.dbwall@mac.com> <21fddd0304062615303f3451b8@mail.gmail.com> <6977150.1095926061764.JavaMail.dbwall@mac.com> <21fddd03040923131614becb9d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <160853974275601764912239307635476887684-Webmail2@me.com> Heh, have you seen myspace? I'd say ordinary people real-time roleplay online all the time. ;-) On Wednesday, August 20, 2008, at 09:55PM, "Mike Monello" wrote: >I would also argue that "ordinary" people don't real-time roleplay online at all From adam.m.s.martin at googlemail.com Thu Aug 21 04:14:51 2008 From: adam.m.s.martin at googlemail.com (Adam Martin) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 09:14:51 +0100 Subject: [arg_discuss] Weekly IRC Chat Tomorrow In-Reply-To: <63701.206.228.139.131.1219276620.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> References: <24002215.1219275639107.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <63701.206.228.139.131.1219276620.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> Message-ID: On the one hand, IRC is free, simple, everyone who's been in one of our chats already has it setup, and "it works". There's some things to like too - no admin needed, no registration / account creation, etc. In general, it seems to be a relatively tiny barrier to participation compared to some of our other challenges. On the other hand, if - as Mike points out - people can't run IRC clients *at all* and so are being barred from our chats, then if we can easily do something to fix that we should. As far as I'm aware, for *almost* everyone right now, the situation is "it works", and given how little volunteer admin resource we've got I'd be afraid of trying to fix something that isn't substantially broken. If there's anyone who can't get in right now, is there something we could add to the WIKI instructions on joining the IRC channel? There's already a web-based client on there, is that not good enough? (if anyone can improve on those instructions, that would be awesome - edit link here: http://www.igda.org/wiki/index.php?title=Alternate_Reality_Games_SIG/IRC_Chats/IRC_Instructions&action=edit ). Going forward, we should keep an eye out for good replacements for IRC, and like Mike says that could be something we transition to in the future. From netwurker at gmail.com Thu Aug 21 04:55:12 2008 From: netwurker at gmail.com (mez breeze) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 18:55:12 +1000 Subject: [arg_discuss] Weekly IRC Chat Tomorrow In-Reply-To: References: <24002215.1219275639107.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <63701.206.228.139.131.1219276620.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> Message-ID: 2am *sigh*. won't be making this 1, folks. -mez -- : http://augmentology.com : http://knott404.blogspot.com : http://netwurker.livejournal.com From jason at aporiacme.com Thu Aug 21 05:00:47 2008 From: jason at aporiacme.com (Jason Chrest) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 09:00:47 +0000 Subject: [arg_discuss] Weekly IRC Chat Tomorrow In-Reply-To: References: <24002215.1219275639107.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net><63701.206.228.139.131.1219276620.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> Message-ID: <539559292-1219309247-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1418783870-@bxe176.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Ithink a good irc web based client is available at mibbit.com - I have never used it but I have heard it is effective in eliminating the need to download an irc client Jason Chrest Aporia Cross-Media Entertainment, LLC. http://news.aporiacme.com Cell:(662)251-9312 jason at aporiacme.com -----Original Message----- From: "Adam Martin" Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 09:14:51 To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] Weekly IRC Chat Tomorrow On the one hand, IRC is free, simple, everyone who's been in one of our chats already has it setup, and "it works". There's some things to like too - no admin needed, no registration / account creation, etc. In general, it seems to be a relatively tiny barrier to participation compared to some of our other challenges. On the other hand, if - as Mike points out - people can't run IRC clients *at all* and so are being barred from our chats, then if we can easily do something to fix that we should. As far as I'm aware, for *almost* everyone right now, the situation is "it works", and given how little volunteer admin resource we've got I'd be afraid of trying to fix something that isn't substantially broken. If there's anyone who can't get in right now, is there something we could add to the WIKI instructions on joining the IRC channel? There's already a web-based client on there, is that not good enough? (if anyone can improve on those instructions, that would be awesome - edit link here: http://www.igda.org/wiki/index.php?title=Alternate_Reality_Games_SIG/IRC_Chats/IRC_Instructions&action=edit ). Going forward, we should keep an eye out for good replacements for IRC, and like Mike says that could be something we transition to in the future. _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From adam.m.s.martin at googlemail.com Thu Aug 21 05:45:49 2008 From: adam.m.s.martin at googlemail.com (Adam Martin) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2008 10:45:49 +0100 Subject: [arg_discuss] Weekly IRC Chat Tomorrow In-Reply-To: <539559292-1219309247-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1418783870-@bxe176.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <24002215.1219275639107.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <63701.206.228.139.131.1219276620.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> <539559292-1219309247-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1418783870-@bxe176.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: 2008/8/21 Jason Chrest : > Ithink a good irc web based client is available at mibbit.com - I have never used it but I have heard it is effective in eliminating the need to download an irc client > I tried Mibbit, it seemed to work very nicely, so I've added that to the wiki page, along with the Chat-Solutions applet (suggested by catherwood). Mibbit's client has the advantage that you can just email someone a URL *and* the connections originate from their server, so it ought to work form behind firewalls etc. Any other improvements, please add them to the wiki :) From dbwall at mac.com Wed Aug 27 17:23:22 2008 From: dbwall at mac.com (D B Wall) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 16:23:22 -0500 Subject: [arg_discuss] Open Source ARGs In-Reply-To: <0AE2EB4A8897D411888A00508BCF5C0C108A905A@erd-chi-exmb1.corp.trb> References: <0AE2EB4A8897D411888A00508BCF5C0C108A905A@erd-chi-exmb1.corp.trb> Message-ID: <65288530480227185405177155315561586257-Webmail2@me.com> In an odd crossing of the streams, I stumbled onto my first piece of open source narrative yesterday. http://craphound.com/littlebrother/download/ If you download the text, there's an introduction that includes the author's take on releasing his work under a creative commons license. He's not just giving you his universe to play in. He's giving you his text, to remix, reuse and share. By the way, the work is also available in hardback from a traditional publisher (Tor). On Wednesday, July 30, 2008, at 01:41PM, "Mike Monello" wrote: >The idea of an open source narrative is interesting, but I imagine it would make the "game" aspect extremely difficult to maintain. > >Eric Martin has been developing an interesting narrative project where he maintains ownership over specific characters but has turned over the universe to Creative Commons, allowing other creative people to create derivative works (any format) within the universe. > >Here's a link to his description of Saijo City: > >http://infocalypse.ning.com/profiles/blog/show?id=851933%3ABlogPost%3A921 > >Best, > >Mike > >--- >Mike Monello >Partner, Campfire >http://www.campfirenyc.com > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >ARG_Discuss mailing list >ARG_Discuss at igda.org >http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > From dodo at WPI.EDU Wed Aug 27 17:48:01 2008 From: dodo at WPI.EDU (O'Donnell, Dean M) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 17:48:01 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Open Source ARGs In-Reply-To: <65288530480227185405177155315561586257-Webmail2@me.com> References: <0AE2EB4A8897D411888A00508BCF5C0C108A905A@erd-chi-exmb1.corp.trb>, <65288530480227185405177155315561586257-Webmail2@me.com> Message-ID: <2E099123D59F714080A1A71D6773C0C2183193BFE5@EXCHANGEMAIL.admin.wpi.edu> He also has the audiobook available under the same license, so you can use the professionally recorded audiobook (that you have to buy) in remixes and such, as long as it's properly attributed. Some kids have already made a short film out of the beginning of the book: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAT4Nm9gZjE And, it's a great book that everyone should read (my short review). Best, Dean ____________________________________________ Dean O?Donnell Associate Director, Interactive Media and Game Development Dept. of Humanities and Arts WPI dodo at wpi.edu Phone: 508-831-5947 Fax: 508-831-5932 ________________________________________ From: arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org [arg_discuss-bounces at igda.org] On Behalf Of D B Wall [dbwall at mac.com] Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2008 5:23 PM To: Discussion list of the IGDA ARG SIG Subject: Re: [arg_discuss] Open Source ARGs In an odd crossing of the streams, I stumbled onto my first piece of open source narrative yesterday. http://craphound.com/littlebrother/download/ If you download the text, there's an introduction that includes the author's take on releasing his work under a creative commons license. He's not just giving you his universe to play in. He's giving you his text, to remix, reuse and share. By the way, the work is also available in hardback from a traditional publisher (Tor). On Wednesday, July 30, 2008, at 01:41PM, "Mike Monello" wrote: >The idea of an open source narrative is interesting, but I imagine it would make the "game" aspect extremely difficult to maintain. > >Eric Martin has been developing an interesting narrative project where he maintains ownership over specific characters but has turned over the universe to Creative Commons, allowing other creative people to create derivative works (any format) within the universe. > >Here's a link to his description of Saijo City: > >http://infocalypse.ning.com/profiles/blog/show?id=851933%3ABlogPost%3A921 > >Best, > >Mike > >--- >Mike Monello >Partner, Campfire >http://www.campfirenyc.com > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >ARG_Discuss mailing list >ARG_Discuss at igda.org >http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > > _______________________________________________ ARG_Discuss mailing list ARG_Discuss at igda.org http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss From wendeth at wendydespain.com Thu Aug 28 11:23:22 2008 From: wendeth at wendydespain.com (Wendy Despain) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 08:23:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [arg_discuss] Weekly IRC Chat Tomorrow In-Reply-To: References: <24002215.1219275639107.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <63701.206.228.139.131.1219276620.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> <539559292-1219309247-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1418783870-@bxe176.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <7803.69.144.84.21.1219937002.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> Are we having one of these today? On Thu, August 21, 2008 2:45 am, Adam Martin wrote: > 2008/8/21 Jason Chrest : >> Ithink a good irc web based client is available at mibbit.com - I >> have never used it but I have heard it is effective in eliminating >> the need to download an irc client >> > > I tried Mibbit, it seemed to work very nicely, so I've added that to > the wiki page, along with the Chat-Solutions applet (suggested by > catherwood). > > Mibbit's client has the advantage that you can just email someone a > URL *and* the connections originate from their server, so it ought to > work form behind firewalls etc. > > Any other improvements, please add them to the wiki :) > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > Wendy Despain quantumcontent.com From andrhia at gmail.com Thu Aug 28 11:59:16 2008 From: andrhia at gmail.com (Andrea Phillips) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 11:59:16 -0400 Subject: [arg_discuss] Weekly IRC Chat Tomorrow In-Reply-To: <7803.69.144.84.21.1219937002.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> References: <24002215.1219275639107.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <63701.206.228.139.131.1219276620.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> <539559292-1219309247-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1418783870-@bxe176.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <7803.69.144.84.21.1219937002.squirrel@webmail.wendydespain.com> Message-ID: <5c799fd60808280859w212572c6qc59ae1d9b62edcc5@mail.gmail.com> D'oh! We should be, in about 3 hours (3 hours later every time to go around the clock!). I'm already on IRC, for what it's worth. Sorry, guys, there's no school and no summer camp this week, and having the two little kids home and trying to get a little work done is kicking my butt. Join instructions on the wiki here: http://www.igda.org/wiki/Alternate_Reality_Games_SIG/IRC_Chats/IRC_Instructions Anyone know how to automate these announcements? On Thu, Aug 28, 2008 at 11:23 AM, Wendy Despain wrote: > Are we having one of these today? > > > On Thu, August 21, 2008 2:45 am, Adam Martin wrote: >> 2008/8/21 Jason Chrest : >>> Ithink a good irc web based client is available at mibbit.com - I >>> have never used it but I have heard it is effective in eliminating >>> the need to download an irc client >>> >> >> I tried Mibbit, it seemed to work very nicely, so I've added that to >> the wiki page, along with the Chat-Solutions applet (suggested by >> catherwood). >> >> Mibbit's client has the advantage that you can just email someone a >> URL *and* the connections originate from their server, so it ought to >> work form behind firewalls etc. >> >> Any other improvements, please add them to the wiki :) >> _______________________________________________ >> ARG_Discuss mailing list >> ARG_Discuss at igda.org >> http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss >> > > > Wendy Despain > quantumcontent.com > > _______________________________________________ > ARG_Discuss mailing list > ARG_Discuss at igda.org > http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/arg_discuss > -- Andrea Phillips http://www.deusexmachinatio.com Words * Culture * Interaction